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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. Well,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to another episode of the Book of Joe

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Speaker 1: Podcasts with me, Tom Berducci and my buddy Joe Madden

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Speaker 1: and Joe. Today we're going to talk about one of

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Speaker 1: your favorite topics as any manager, umpires and umpiring, I

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Speaker 1: mean managers and umpires. It's like, I don't know, cats

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Speaker 1: and dogs, Wiley Coyote and the road Runner, Tom and Jerry.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's something that it's antagonistic and it's also

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Speaker 1: sometimes entertaining, and I bring it up of course, if

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Speaker 1: you saw Aaron Boone on Monday night against the Chicago

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Speaker 1: White Sox Las Diaz behind the plate and boy, that

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Speaker 1: was entertaining. You don't see a lot of those demonstrative

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Speaker 1: arguments anymore with umpires. But Aaron Boone went out there

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Speaker 1: late the game and just completely lost it. The irony

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Speaker 1: is it was a pitch that was well in the

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Speaker 1: strike zone that Laz Diaz called strike three on Anthony Volpi.

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Speaker 1: But by then Aaron had seen enough. Los Diaz, as

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Speaker 1: you know, Joe, he's got a big strike zone. The

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Speaker 1: ball off the plate, the outside of the plate. You know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a ball off the plate, he's going to

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Speaker 1: call out a strike. You know, a lot of these

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Speaker 1: older rumpires still stick with their version of the strike

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Speaker 1: zone rather than the the radar influenced strike zone. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: Aaron Boone went out there and he basically mocked Lz Diaz.

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Speaker 1: He literally drew a line in the dirt on the

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Speaker 1: outside of the plate where he said that that's where

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Speaker 1: the ball crossed the plate, and then he mocked las

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Speaker 1: Diaz's strike three call. So I'm saying it's entertaining, but

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Speaker 1: I'm sure Loz didn't think it was entertaining. So, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at Aaron Boone, I realize what's going on

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Speaker 1: with the Yankees here has not been fun to watch, right.

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Speaker 1: They're really scuffling for offense. In the last two games

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Speaker 1: for the Yankees, it was the first time in franchise

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Speaker 1: history that they lost two straight games nine in and

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Speaker 1: games by leaving twelve or more runners on base. I

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Speaker 1: think the total was twenty eight runners left on base.

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Speaker 1: So he's tired of looking at that, and we know

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Speaker 1: he has a short fuse and he lost it. So, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I hear this phrase.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm gonna stand behind my players, and I

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Speaker 1: get that, but it gets to me a little tired too.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of times it's just the manager

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Speaker 1: blown off steam. So as someone Joe who's known to

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Speaker 1: blow off steam yourself, I'm not sure if you caught

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Speaker 1: the Aaron Boone rant. But what you take on the

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Speaker 1: manager losing it on an umpire.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a great recap. He just went through right there.

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Speaker 2: You lose your mind. I mean, he gets to the

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Speaker 2: points sometimes where things build up to the point and

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Speaker 2: that it's that pressure relief valve. Just has to be

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Speaker 2: an argument with an umpire. That definitely is part of it,

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Speaker 2: and of course only does occur when you're going poorly

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Speaker 2: and at some point, Yeah, you just have to get

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Speaker 2: out there, defend your team, defend your brood. All that

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Speaker 2: stuff is a part of it. However it is it's

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Speaker 2: difficult as a manager. You are, you know, you're the

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Speaker 2: spokesperson for the team. Again, you are defending your brood.

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Speaker 2: Things aren't going well and you have to do something

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Speaker 2: to try to flip this thing around. Regards to the

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Speaker 2: empire specifically, quite frankly, there's some guys that you feel

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Speaker 2: better about their skills as opposed to others. It's just

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Speaker 2: like any other occupation. You're going to a game knowing

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Speaker 2: so and so is behind the play right right now,

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Speaker 2: it's pretty much behind the plate, the bases. Everything's fixable,

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Speaker 2: but you're always concerned about that and you're always worried

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Speaker 2: about the close call going against you. You just don't

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Speaker 2: have the same amount of confidence in certain people as

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Speaker 2: you do in others. It's just quite it's just being

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Speaker 2: honest in its strength, and so that that's part of it.

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Speaker 2: You could be ukually almost like set yourself up before

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Speaker 2: the game begins, knowing that this there's gonna be some

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Speaker 2: calls here you're not going to like so all that.

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Speaker 2: Some of it's like I guess, pre set predetermined, but

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Speaker 2: it's just true. And so that's that's a big part

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Speaker 2: of it, just how you feel about this umpire crew,

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Speaker 2: this umpire specifically, and it can set you up in advance.

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Speaker 2: The other part just the emotion passion that the game

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Speaker 2: is set up right now, primarily that managers have very

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Speaker 2: few avenues to really get upset about. Yeah, baals and

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Speaker 2: strikes still won. Check swings to me was the one

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Speaker 2: that would set me off. I think as much as

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Speaker 2: anything was the check swing. I don't even know how

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Speaker 2: many times they've got echecked over that. But you know,

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Speaker 2: the plays on the basis are no longer part of

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Speaker 2: that the emotion anymore. Although I did see the play

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Speaker 2: the other day in San Diego where I thought Gary

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Speaker 2: Sanchez made a great play at the play, but then

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Speaker 2: the call was reversed because they said he was blocking

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Speaker 2: the plate on a safety squeeze. Great play both sides,

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Speaker 2: great play offensively by the Dodgers, great play defensively by

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Speaker 2: the Padres. I thought Sanchez played it perfectly, but of

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Speaker 2: course with the manufactured rule, he's out, and that was

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Speaker 2: a little bit upsetting to me just to watch it.

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Speaker 2: But no emotion. I mean, you know, Bomel came out,

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Speaker 2: but what are you gonna argue about it. They didn't

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Speaker 2: even make that. They didn't reverse the call. Somebody in

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Speaker 2: New York did. So the way the game is set

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Speaker 2: up right now, a lot of the emotion is being

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Speaker 2: tapped out of it because you just has nothing to

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Speaker 2: argue about it anymore. So final point, if you, as

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Speaker 2: a manager need to be lowed baals and strikes, check

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Speaker 2: swings are about the last two vestages where you are

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Speaker 2: able to do something like that and get out there

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Speaker 2: and make a point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point about you know, there's not

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Speaker 1: many times now that manager can go out there or

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Speaker 1: should go out there and argue because of replay of

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Speaker 1: the bases. It basically takes the three bases out of

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Speaker 1: the equation when it comes to arguments. That's why the

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Speaker 1: rate at which Aaron Boone is getting thrown out of

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Speaker 1: games is shocking. Aaron Boone is getting thrown out once

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Speaker 1: every twenty five point six games in his major league

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Speaker 1: career as a manager, and this is without arguments essentially

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Speaker 1: on the basis at all, and he's getting thrown out

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Speaker 1: of games more frequently than any manager in the last

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Speaker 1: sixty years. It's actually the third highest rate all time.

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Speaker 1: Only ones higher than him were Frankie Fish and Paul

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Speaker 1: Richards whose nickname was Old Rent and Rave. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's stunning to me, Joe that in today's game, as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned, basically you just can argue with the home

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Speaker 1: plate umpire that he's.

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Speaker 3: Getting thrown out like this.

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Speaker 1: And I again, I get the whole idea about defending

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Speaker 1: your players, but when it happens this often, I think

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Speaker 1: it loses its impact. It becomes more about Aaron Boone

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Speaker 1: than defending the players. So I don't know, Listen, he's

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Speaker 1: going to get suspended. It should be for this, you know, again,

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Speaker 1: mocking the umpire. It's one thing to argue, but I

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Speaker 1: think he went a little far as far as pushing

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Speaker 1: the envelope of suspension or not. And I wonder if

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Speaker 1: his recidibus history would come into play all as well.

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Speaker 3: I know David Bell.

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Speaker 1: Had a situation either a year or two ago where

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Speaker 1: MLB brought him in and said, listen, just tie it

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Speaker 1: down a little bit.

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Speaker 3: This is getting out of hand.

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Speaker 1: You can't just lose it like this on ball strike

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Speaker 1: calls all the time. We all understand frustration, but I

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Speaker 1: think there's a point where it becomes too much, and

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Speaker 1: I think Aaron Boone is at the point where it's

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Speaker 1: too much.

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Speaker 2: My first, I'm gonna defend Aaron in a sense that

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Speaker 2: this is a wonderful young man. I absolutely. I got

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Speaker 2: to know him a lot when he's a broadcaster and

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Speaker 2: coming to my offense, we had that great conversation. He's

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Speaker 2: a great listener. He looks you right in the eyeballs.

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Speaker 2: I know it's daddy. I know Bob really well and Obrett,

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Speaker 2: I mean, but this is a really first rate, solid,

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Speaker 2: very smart guy. So first of all, know that. Second

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Speaker 2: of all, he works for the Yankees, and the Yankees

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Speaker 2: are doing well. So when you're you know, in that

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Speaker 2: dugout and Yankee Stadium on a nightly basis, and your

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Speaker 2: team's not doing well and you spent all this money

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Speaker 2: and you're always part of it is you are. You

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Speaker 2: are the spokesperson for the organization. You just are twice

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Speaker 2: a day, minimal before the game, after the game, and

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Speaker 2: then of course any other like interviews that you may

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Speaker 2: have to participate in as you get to the ballpark.

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Speaker 2: That there's a lot of conversation constantly, and when you're

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Speaker 2: always having to play defense, and he's playing defense right now,

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Speaker 2: there's no offense, there's no you can't go out there

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Speaker 2: and blow your own horn about anything. It's all you're

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Speaker 2: playing defense. When you're constantly playing defense, it can wear

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Speaker 2: you down. I thought that came to my head in

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Speaker 2: my mind, and when I was with the Devil Rays

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Speaker 2: the first two years, I was always playing defense in

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Speaker 2: the postgame conversations and then you know, people, they start

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Speaker 2: questioning your abilities and you know all this stuff, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of it's just based on personnel or the

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Speaker 2: lack of it. It's just it's not the fact that

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Speaker 2: you are lacking anything as a manager. Sometimes the personnels

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Speaker 2: is not playing well or they're just not good enough.

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Speaker 2: But nevertheless, you start to defend, defend, defend, and that'll

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Speaker 2: wear you down. What he needs is a nice little

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Speaker 2: run here they do. Obviously that's an understatement, but he

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Speaker 2: had on some kind of a run here. He could

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Speaker 2: start playing offense again, I mean offensively post pre and

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Speaker 2: post game, where you can talk favorably about his group

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Speaker 2: and be something to crow about it. Yeah, I told

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Speaker 2: you we talked about this before. That's what he needs.

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Speaker 2: And until they win, it's not going to go away

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Speaker 2: because it's hard. It's hard as a manager to constantly

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Speaker 2: defend everything going on within your organization.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point, especially in New York as

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Speaker 1: you know, where everything is amplified. It's a playing defense

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Speaker 1: can definitely wear on anybody managing in New York in

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Speaker 1: a tough situation.

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Speaker 3: And that's where they're at.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they are now zero in terms of run differential,

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Speaker 1: They're five and a half games out of the wildcard,

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Speaker 1: chasing Toronto with a couple of teams in front of them,

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Speaker 1: and the offense just has been stuck in neutral for

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Speaker 1: two two and a half months here. So a lot

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Speaker 1: going on, certainly for Aaron Boone, and I'm sure probably

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Speaker 1: made him feel better to get it out. And in

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Speaker 1: his defense, Los Diaz had a tough night. But I

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Speaker 1: say that again knowing that this is who he is

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Speaker 1: as an umpire. He's going to call Nike's had Los

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Speaker 1: Dias opening Day with Garrett Cole on the mound and

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Speaker 1: Las Dia has missed fifteen pitches. You know he's just

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Speaker 1: gonna call that pitch off the play to strike. The

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Speaker 1: Yankees won that game against the Giants, but they've seen it,

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Speaker 1: they know the reputation, and you know, as a manager, Joe,

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Speaker 1: you get a scouting report on umpires and you know

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Speaker 1: what you can get what you can't get. And then

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Speaker 1: that game in Chicago, there were thirteen calls that went

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Speaker 1: against the Yankees. There were three that went against the

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Speaker 1: White Sox. So I get where Aaron Boon is coming from.

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Speaker 1: It's just unusual for me to see a manager lose

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Speaker 1: it as often as he does. I mean, think about it,

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Speaker 1: he's getting thrown out of games more at a higher

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Speaker 1: rate than people like Earl Weaver, Billy Martin, Leo du Rocher.

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Speaker 1: So it's in today's game. It's odd to see, but understandable,

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Speaker 1: I guess in terms of what you just pointed out,

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Speaker 1: the heat coming down on him and the frustration of

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Speaker 1: seeing his team leave guys on base.

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Speaker 2: Well, part of it you're talking about the apparently the

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Speaker 2: White Sox did a better job of pitching to the

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Speaker 2: heat map or the pitcher just had better command, because

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Speaker 2: these guys know everybody knows before the game begins where

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Speaker 2: an umpire is big and umpire is kind of like

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Speaker 2: two different umpires based on like right handed hitter, right

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Speaker 2: handed pitcher, right handed hitter, right handed pitcher, left handed hitter,

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Speaker 2: and vice versa. So it's almost like four different strike

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Speaker 2: zones that you have to understand, and when a catcher

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Speaker 2: really knows that in a pictures the command to pitch

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Speaker 2: to that, it could definitely work in your favorite That's

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Speaker 2: something that goes back, you know, with the Rays. I

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Speaker 2: think we started with the Rays years ago. It was

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Speaker 2: in a room memory phase where we had these like

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Speaker 2: like Amba's look like a little meba on a piece

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Speaker 2: of paper and wasn't highly specific, but he gave you

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Speaker 2: a pretty good idea where the guy was big and

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Speaker 2: where he was tight. So if you have like a

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Speaker 2: low ball pitcher pitching that day and this guy is

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Speaker 2: not giving anything down there, eh, you go into the

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Speaker 2: game just being concerned about it. And conversely, if a

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Speaker 2: high ball umpire, you got a guy with a nice

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Speaker 2: little ride and he's pitching at the top of the

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Speaker 2: zone a lot, you get you going to feel good

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Speaker 2: about this. And there's guys that are tight in, guys

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Speaker 2: that are tied out. But again, when you watch a game,

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Speaker 2: understand right on right, right on left, it's going to

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Speaker 2: be two different strike zones, and then left on left

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Speaker 2: and left on right two different strike zones. So you

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Speaker 2: got to you got to check all that out because

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Speaker 2: all these umpires they're they're human, they're they're all taught

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Speaker 2: the same thing, however they see things differently. The last point,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's really where catching has gotten to the point.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about this recently, where catchers are pulling pitches.

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Speaker 2: It's not framing, they're pulling them. And I I watch it.

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Speaker 2: It's it's flagrant. I can't believe how flagrant it is.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes when a guy would absolutely you know, with that

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Speaker 2: elephant trunk, they start with the glove below and they

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Speaker 2: pull it right up to the to the zone I'm

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Speaker 2: still waiting. And I would defend any umpire that would

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Speaker 2: tell a catcher listen, either you stop that. I'm not

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Speaker 2: calling us writ I mean really, it's it's it's a

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Speaker 2: tough way to umpire. And I watch it, and when

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Speaker 2: I watch it, I see umpires really I think making

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Speaker 2: good calls. In spite of the fact that the guy's

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Speaker 2: moving his glove all over the place, I'd say, good job, umpire,

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Speaker 2: misterrow on Pire, that's really good stuff. So again, from

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Speaker 2: a perspective an umpire, an umpire is a group I

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Speaker 2: would have a meeting and say, listen, guys, stop pulling

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Speaker 2: pitches or you're not getting anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm surprised they let some of these catchers get

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Speaker 1: away with how much they're pulling pictures, because it's not

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Speaker 1: a good look for the umpire I mentioned. Frankie Frisch

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Speaker 1: is a guy who thrown out just about as much,

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Speaker 1: if not more than Aaron Boone, A couple of great

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Speaker 1: stories about him.

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Speaker 3: He got thrown out of one game when he.

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Speaker 1: Didn't like the field conditions, thought it was too wet

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Speaker 1: to continue playing. He walked out to argue with the

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Speaker 1: umpires holding an umbrella.

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Speaker 2: See it, I like that.

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Speaker 3: There was another time he got thrown out.

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Speaker 1: He didn't like the call, he went out and argued,

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Speaker 1: and when he got his explanation, he pretended to faint

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Speaker 1: on the field.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: A couple of other ones for you, Earl Weaver, I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: it's amazing he was a great arguer of umpires.

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Speaker 3: Now that was entertainment right there.

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Speaker 1: He was thrown out of both ends of a double

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Speaker 1: header three times in his career, and my favorite is

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Speaker 1: an umpire once tried to explain a rule book interpretation

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Speaker 1: to Earl Weaver, and the umpire offered to show Earl

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Speaker 1: the rule book and Erl said that doesn't do me

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Speaker 1: any good, and the empire said why, He said, because

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Speaker 1: I don't read braille.

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Speaker 2: Listen, that's the stuff that we're missing. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: you can talk about analytics, you talk about everything else,

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Speaker 2: but subtracting so much emotion from the game. We are

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Speaker 2: and we're becoming everybody's pretty much the same cat anymore.

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Speaker 2: Every organization wants to be the same as the socialistic

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Speaker 2: version of baseball. So maybe they what Boonie did is

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Speaker 2: actually necessary or needed, just to break it up a

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Speaker 2: little bit, because like you're describing all those guys, I mean,

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Speaker 2: very entertaining, Billy Martin, very entertaining, Whitey very entertaining. I mean,

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Speaker 2: all these dudes are very entertaining. And I got to

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Speaker 2: know several of them and conversationally they were great. Jimmy Leland,

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Speaker 2: I love Jimmy Leland. How could you not love Jimmy?

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Speaker 2: How could you not love Don Zimmer. That's part of

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Speaker 2: it that the personality is being subtracted from the game

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Speaker 2: kind of, it's not being encouraged, it's not wanted anymore.

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Speaker 2: And these guys were just loaded with that stuff, and

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Speaker 2: it was entertaining to the fans, but also to the

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Speaker 2: to your team and even the other team. You get,

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Speaker 2: you get, You got some pretty good laughs in the dugout,

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Speaker 2: and you got some good laughs for coming from the

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Speaker 2: other dugout. All of it is what makes our game

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Speaker 2: so interesting and fun.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned Jimmy Leland.

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Speaker 1: He used to wear spikes when he managed, and I

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Speaker 1: once asked him why he might have been pulling my leg.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not, but he said, I just want to go

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Speaker 1: out there and argue with the umpires.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to loot to my feet.

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Speaker 2: I believe it.

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Speaker 1: And one quick story for you to entertaining umpire. How

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Speaker 1: about Lou Panela.

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Speaker 2: He was great.

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Speaker 1: I always had a game at the old Municipal Stadium

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Speaker 1: in Cleveland, and Lou loved to do things with his hat,

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Speaker 1: throw it, kick at whatever.

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Speaker 3: It was kind of part of his act.

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Speaker 1: And he went out there this day, a hot Sunday

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Speaker 1: afternoon in Cleveland, argued the call, went into his rant,

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Speaker 1: fired his hat into the ground, continued the argument. Then

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Speaker 1: turned around and he went to go kick his hat.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't there. The ball boy had picked it up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I done, Lou admonished the ball boy. He said, don't

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Speaker 1: ever touch my prop.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you, these guys are so And that's the thing.

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Speaker 2: I mean. I've worked with people that have worked with

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Speaker 2: Lou more closely and Lou and our friends, and I

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Speaker 2: really enjoy the guy. But I'm telling you, man, if

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Speaker 2: you ever heard the whole stories behind the different situations

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Speaker 2: that lou might might have been one of the funniest ever.

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Speaker 2: It's hysterical stuff. I'm still waiting for that book to

343
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Speaker 2: come out. To the movie about Lou Panel would be

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Speaker 2: absolutely entertaining. He is great, great baseball mind, great dude,

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Speaker 2: but stuff that he did was absolutely hysterical and hilarious.

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Speaker 1: Well, Joe, you're pretty entertaining to yourself, so we're gonna

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Speaker 1: take a quick break and we get back. I want

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Speaker 1: to hear Joe Madden's best stories about arguing with umpires.

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Speaker 3: All right, Joe, you know, we.

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Speaker 1: Have numbers for everything, including ejections. So I was looking

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Speaker 1: up your career tally. For your career ejections, you're actually

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Speaker 1: sixteenth on the all time list. You're actually tied with

353
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Speaker 1: Bob Melvin, so the next time he gets tossed, he's

354
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Speaker 1: gonna pass you. Fifty nine ejections in your nineteen years.

355
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Speaker 1: You're actually ahead of the curmudgeon Dick Williams, you're ahead

356
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Speaker 1: of Sparky Anderson fifty six, and you're ahead of Gene

357
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Speaker 1: Mark at fifty four. So you've done pretty good to

358
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Speaker 1: get in the top sixteen all time for ejections.

359
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Speaker 3: Listen, I don't know if this was your most entertaining one.

360
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Speaker 1: But you must have played hoops as a kid, because

361
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Speaker 1: there was that one with Joe West where you had

362
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Speaker 1: a great spin move trying to get out of his ground.

363
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Speaker 1: I don't even know what the argument was. Maybe it

364
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Speaker 1: was one of those check swing calls. But you're with

365
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Speaker 1: the Cubs, and man, you had some good footwork. Joe,

366
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Speaker 1: do you remember that one?

367
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Speaker 2: I do? I mean, and that's really a football thing.

368
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Speaker 2: I remember, like seeing high school football films that running

369
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Speaker 2: down field and I was able to do that spind

370
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Speaker 2: thing to get out of a tackle. But yeah, that

371
00:18:22,558 --> 00:18:26,118
Speaker 2: was because they were thrown at hobby bias in that game,

372
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Speaker 2: and at that time, the Pirates had a really strong

373
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Speaker 2: reputation of throwing at people and not only inside but

374
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Speaker 2: up and inside. And I just had enough. So I'm

375
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Speaker 2: yelling at their dugout and I'm yelling at their dug out,

376
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Speaker 2: and finally that was enough. So I was had every

377
00:18:40,198 --> 00:18:42,478
Speaker 2: intention of going into their dugout. I was trying to

378
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Speaker 2: get over there, and I'm getting out of the dugout

379
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Speaker 2: and here comes Joe West like an absolute left tackle.

380
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Speaker 2: Great footworking because Joe was the football, but he kept

381
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Speaker 2: pushing me in front of me, and then KB came

382
00:18:53,318 --> 00:18:55,798
Speaker 2: up behind and grabbed me from behind. It you see

383
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Speaker 2: the pictures of KB looks like he's actually smiling or laughing.

384
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Speaker 2: But I was really upset because of the reputation they

385
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Speaker 2: had had and the fact that I thought that that

386
00:19:04,358 --> 00:19:07,278
Speaker 2: was happening that day. So I was literally actually trying

387
00:19:07,318 --> 00:19:10,078
Speaker 2: to get to the pirate. Doug got probably gotten the

388
00:19:10,078 --> 00:19:12,478
Speaker 2: crap beat out of me more than likely, But I

389
00:19:12,518 --> 00:19:14,638
Speaker 2: mean it, it was one of those things you just

390
00:19:15,118 --> 00:19:16,638
Speaker 2: you just had to do in the moment. It was

391
00:19:16,678 --> 00:19:19,998
Speaker 2: the right thing to do. Yes, Joe West was outstanding,

392
00:19:20,318 --> 00:19:24,118
Speaker 2: footwork was great, but KB had a really good hold

393
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Speaker 2: on me, and it kind of I think it eventually

394
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Speaker 2: settled me down. Now.

395
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Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember this one. You probably do.

396
00:19:30,998 --> 00:19:32,718
Speaker 1: You were with Tampa Bay at the time. It was

397
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Speaker 1: against the White Sox. Ozzie Gain was the other manager,

398
00:19:36,558 --> 00:19:39,438
Speaker 1: and Ozzie actually got a call overturned at first base.

399
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Speaker 1: I think it was Gavin Floyd was covering first base

400
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Speaker 1: and there was some question whether he had controlled the

401
00:19:44,438 --> 00:19:48,238
Speaker 1: ball on the out at first base, and Ozzie came

402
00:19:48,278 --> 00:19:51,678
Speaker 1: out and argued actually won an argument, so the play

403
00:19:51,798 --> 00:19:54,678
Speaker 1: was overturned in his favor, and the notes from the

404
00:19:54,718 --> 00:19:57,878
Speaker 1: game said that you were out there so long, arguing

405
00:19:57,918 --> 00:20:02,718
Speaker 1: that actually all four umpires ejected you.

406
00:20:02,718 --> 00:20:05,398
Speaker 3: You completed the cycle of ejections.

407
00:20:04,798 --> 00:20:07,838
Speaker 2: In one play that was in was that in Chicago.

408
00:20:08,078 --> 00:20:09,838
Speaker 3: I'm not sure exactly where it was.

409
00:20:09,878 --> 00:20:11,558
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you know what that was. That was

410
00:20:11,598 --> 00:20:13,718
Speaker 2: the play up the middle, and it was a throw

411
00:20:13,798 --> 00:20:17,918
Speaker 2: to first base and he was called out and then

412
00:20:17,958 --> 00:20:21,918
Speaker 2: the second base umpire overturned it from behind second base.

413
00:20:22,558 --> 00:20:27,798
Speaker 2: That's what happened. So once the calls made argument, I

414
00:20:27,918 --> 00:20:31,158
Speaker 2: think this is how it happened. And then before it

415
00:20:31,198 --> 00:20:33,118
Speaker 2: was all over, the second base it was like over

416
00:20:33,198 --> 00:20:36,558
Speaker 2: ninety feet away changes the call, and that was like

417
00:20:36,638 --> 00:20:39,198
Speaker 2: I was totally amazed by that and I could not

418
00:20:39,398 --> 00:20:41,678
Speaker 2: let I couldnt walk away from that at all. So

419
00:20:41,718 --> 00:20:44,958
Speaker 2: there was always you know, Prazinski stuff with the plate,

420
00:20:45,558 --> 00:20:47,438
Speaker 2: the ball in the dirt with Josh Paul I wasn't

421
00:20:47,438 --> 00:20:49,918
Speaker 2: the manager at that time, but also Prazinsky going between

422
00:20:49,918 --> 00:20:53,718
Speaker 2: second and third Again, Doug Ennings call gets overturned. I

423
00:20:53,758 --> 00:20:57,318
Speaker 2: think this was Dana Dumuthe and Joe West were combined

424
00:20:57,318 --> 00:20:59,998
Speaker 2: in this somehow, I think. But anyway, the call was

425
00:21:00,038 --> 00:21:03,838
Speaker 2: overturned by the umpire behind second base on a play

426
00:21:03,958 --> 00:21:06,798
Speaker 2: at first base, so that when I could not I

427
00:21:06,838 --> 00:21:09,318
Speaker 2: could not deal with at all. That was ridiculous. Where

428
00:21:09,318 --> 00:21:11,918
Speaker 2: the guy's like three feet away from the call, he's

429
00:21:11,958 --> 00:21:13,878
Speaker 2: wrong and the guy that's over one hundred feet away

430
00:21:13,958 --> 00:21:16,878
Speaker 2: is right. So that's pretty certain that that's what had

431
00:21:16,878 --> 00:21:17,678
Speaker 2: happened on that play.

432
00:21:17,878 --> 00:21:19,838
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this because I think we've heard

433
00:21:19,878 --> 00:21:22,038
Speaker 1: about this, and I know for a fact lou Panella

434
00:21:22,118 --> 00:21:24,678
Speaker 1: had done this. Are there times where you would go

435
00:21:24,798 --> 00:21:28,878
Speaker 1: out out there to fire up your team, like thinking

436
00:21:28,918 --> 00:21:31,638
Speaker 1: you're going to inspire or wake up whatever you want

437
00:21:31,638 --> 00:21:35,998
Speaker 1: to use is the terminology, But actually a calculated not

438
00:21:36,078 --> 00:21:39,078
Speaker 1: spur the moment reaction to a call, but saying, you

439
00:21:39,078 --> 00:21:40,158
Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to go out there.

440
00:21:40,198 --> 00:21:42,158
Speaker 3: Our team needs something here, we need a spark.

441
00:21:42,438 --> 00:21:45,678
Speaker 2: Yeah. Started in double A. I was managing in Midland

442
00:21:45,678 --> 00:21:47,758
Speaker 2: and I think the young part's name was Joe Burlson.

443
00:21:47,798 --> 00:21:49,358
Speaker 2: Before the game, he said, listen, I need to get

444
00:21:49,398 --> 00:21:51,878
Speaker 2: kicked out of this game. He says, ah, I said, no, listen.

445
00:21:51,958 --> 00:21:53,758
Speaker 2: If I come out there, I'll try to use the

446
00:21:53,798 --> 00:21:55,878
Speaker 2: right language. I'm not going to get personal. But the

447
00:21:55,918 --> 00:21:57,718
Speaker 2: moment I come out there and for the very first

448
00:21:57,958 --> 00:22:01,518
Speaker 2: close call, you need to throw me out. And sure enough,

449
00:22:01,518 --> 00:22:03,358
Speaker 2: there's a close play at third base. I jumped over

450
00:22:03,398 --> 00:22:05,478
Speaker 2: somebody to get right in front of Joe. I started

451
00:22:05,558 --> 00:22:07,238
Speaker 2: yelling at him, poom, he throws me out of the game.

452
00:22:07,278 --> 00:22:09,278
Speaker 2: I can't tell if we wanted or lost, but that's

453
00:22:09,318 --> 00:22:11,518
Speaker 2: the first time I think I intentionally did. The other

454
00:22:11,558 --> 00:22:14,838
Speaker 2: time was in Colorado in the major leagues. We were

455
00:22:14,838 --> 00:22:18,318
Speaker 2: playing in Colorado Devil Rays and my favorite Teddy Barrett's

456
00:22:18,318 --> 00:22:20,798
Speaker 2: I'm piring behind and Ted is a minister. Ted is

457
00:22:20,838 --> 00:22:23,558
Speaker 2: a minister. Ted actually offered to marry my daughter Sarah

458
00:22:23,518 --> 00:22:25,198
Speaker 2: when Sarah was getting married a couple of years ago,

459
00:22:25,678 --> 00:22:29,518
Speaker 2: several years ago. Actually. So I'm there and I'm out

460
00:22:29,558 --> 00:22:31,638
Speaker 2: of the mound, arguing, and Ted starts walking out to

461
00:22:31,678 --> 00:22:33,438
Speaker 2: the mountain. I start walking towards Ted. I said, Ted,

462
00:22:33,478 --> 00:22:35,318
Speaker 2: you got to throw me out of this game. He said, Joe,

463
00:22:35,358 --> 00:22:37,158
Speaker 2: I can't do that. I says, Ted, you got to

464
00:22:37,158 --> 00:22:39,038
Speaker 2: throw me out of this game. You absolutely have to.

465
00:22:39,398 --> 00:22:41,758
Speaker 2: So he looked at me again. He got this really

466
00:22:41,798 --> 00:22:45,838
Speaker 2: great he kind of pacifies you, and he's got this great

467
00:22:46,998 --> 00:22:49,158
Speaker 2: puppy dog kind of a look about him. So eventually

468
00:22:49,358 --> 00:22:51,518
Speaker 2: he tossed me out of the game, and I got

469
00:22:51,518 --> 00:22:52,998
Speaker 2: what I had wanted to get done. I said, I

470
00:22:52,998 --> 00:22:54,398
Speaker 2: got to yell at you a little bit. I did,

471
00:22:54,678 --> 00:22:57,318
Speaker 2: went back to the mound, change the pictures. After the game,

472
00:22:57,358 --> 00:22:59,518
Speaker 2: I'm on the team bus and who comes walking out

473
00:22:59,558 --> 00:23:02,158
Speaker 2: with ted So I get off the bus, walk up

474
00:23:02,158 --> 00:23:04,078
Speaker 2: to him, givehim a big old hug. I said, man,

475
00:23:04,078 --> 00:23:06,038
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but thanks for what you did there. He

476
00:23:06,078 --> 00:23:07,278
Speaker 2: went on his way, and so did I.

477
00:23:07,518 --> 00:23:09,398
Speaker 3: Hey he's a big Teddy Bear, great guy.

478
00:23:09,518 --> 00:23:10,998
Speaker 2: I love Teddy, Love Teddy.

479
00:23:11,158 --> 00:23:15,118
Speaker 1: How about when usually there's a small fine if you

480
00:23:15,158 --> 00:23:19,118
Speaker 1: will attached to these injections, especially if you're really demonstrative.

481
00:23:19,558 --> 00:23:21,158
Speaker 3: Uh, do you actually write the check or does it?

482
00:23:21,198 --> 00:23:23,878
Speaker 2: Team? Yeah? Yeah, No, I mean it stopped. I mean

483
00:23:23,958 --> 00:23:26,118
Speaker 2: in the beginning, I think with the race, they helped

484
00:23:26,118 --> 00:23:28,278
Speaker 2: me a little bit, but eventually I didn't get any

485
00:23:28,278 --> 00:23:30,398
Speaker 2: help on my fines. I was paying on my own

486
00:23:30,438 --> 00:23:33,598
Speaker 2: fines and they kept getting a little bit bigger. But

487
00:23:33,798 --> 00:23:35,478
Speaker 2: you know, I wasn't gonna cry about it. I mean,

488
00:23:35,518 --> 00:23:36,638
Speaker 2: I was do what I was supposed to do. I

489
00:23:36,638 --> 00:23:38,998
Speaker 2: thought it was part of the job. But the last

490
00:23:38,998 --> 00:23:43,718
Speaker 2: couple of years in Chicago and with the Angels, I

491
00:23:43,718 --> 00:23:46,718
Speaker 2: didn't get I didn't get reimbursed from my my, my

492
00:23:46,838 --> 00:23:50,158
Speaker 2: fines for doing what I did. But you don't stop.

493
00:23:50,198 --> 00:23:52,278
Speaker 2: You just got to keep doing what you do. It's

494
00:23:52,278 --> 00:23:54,718
Speaker 2: the right It is really the right thing to do, honestly,

495
00:23:54,758 --> 00:23:57,398
Speaker 2: it is. It has It makes a difference when you

496
00:23:57,438 --> 00:24:00,678
Speaker 2: walk in the clubhouse after the game if you defended somebody,

497
00:24:00,798 --> 00:24:04,558
Speaker 2: justifiably defended somebody. Sometimes it can't be thet but it's

498
00:24:04,558 --> 00:24:07,198
Speaker 2: the right thing to do, and your players do appreciate it.

499
00:24:07,278 --> 00:24:09,558
Speaker 2: Your players do appreciate it. Just think about you as

500
00:24:09,558 --> 00:24:11,038
Speaker 2: a kid. I remember when my dad stuck up for

501
00:24:11,158 --> 00:24:13,558
Speaker 2: me one time when I think it was mister Lobots's

502
00:24:13,638 --> 00:24:15,398
Speaker 2: driving by and yells at me as I'm putting my

503
00:24:15,398 --> 00:24:17,078
Speaker 2: car in the garage, and my dad came storming out

504
00:24:17,078 --> 00:24:19,478
Speaker 2: of the garage started yelling at a really good friend,

505
00:24:19,518 --> 00:24:22,278
Speaker 2: mister Lobit's about getting on me as a kid, and

506
00:24:22,398 --> 00:24:24,718
Speaker 2: it made me feel good that my dad defended me.

507
00:24:24,798 --> 00:24:27,518
Speaker 2: So you know, there's there's that to it, and if

508
00:24:27,518 --> 00:24:29,718
Speaker 2: we all think about it and understand it, if you

509
00:24:29,758 --> 00:24:32,038
Speaker 2: slow it down a little, but yeah, it matters when

510
00:24:32,558 --> 00:24:36,358
Speaker 2: somebody very very important to you in your life, takes

511
00:24:36,358 --> 00:24:39,958
Speaker 2: your side in a dispute. I don't even know who's

512
00:24:39,998 --> 00:24:41,558
Speaker 2: right or wrong all the time, that's not even the point,

513
00:24:41,558 --> 00:24:43,438
Speaker 2: but it takes your side, and then maybe there's a

514
00:24:43,478 --> 00:24:46,478
Speaker 2: conversation afterwards that like, hey, listen, you were in the

515
00:24:46,478 --> 00:24:48,438
Speaker 2: wrong right there, But I did what I did only

516
00:24:48,438 --> 00:24:51,358
Speaker 2: because I had to defend you. But understand, use better

517
00:24:51,438 --> 00:24:54,878
Speaker 2: judgment next time, and that's that's cool. So but yes,

518
00:24:55,038 --> 00:24:58,438
Speaker 2: I defend their manager's right to do that, because it,

519
00:24:58,518 --> 00:25:00,758
Speaker 2: quite frankly, it makes a difference among the players.

520
00:25:01,318 --> 00:25:05,758
Speaker 1: And Joe, give everybody an idea of language in these arguments,

521
00:25:05,838 --> 00:25:09,838
Speaker 1: and you don't have to give us verbatim quotations here.

522
00:25:09,918 --> 00:25:13,438
Speaker 1: But there is a line there, obviously with umpires what

523
00:25:13,478 --> 00:25:16,438
Speaker 1: you can say and not say and still remain in

524
00:25:16,478 --> 00:25:16,838
Speaker 1: the game.

525
00:25:18,358 --> 00:25:20,118
Speaker 3: And we know if you get a little too personal,

526
00:25:20,238 --> 00:25:21,598
Speaker 3: you're gonna get wrong. You know that.

527
00:25:22,518 --> 00:25:24,758
Speaker 1: But is it different among certain umpires that you can

528
00:25:24,798 --> 00:25:26,998
Speaker 1: get away with more or less in terms of the

529
00:25:27,118 --> 00:25:28,038
Speaker 1: language that you use.

530
00:25:28,398 --> 00:25:30,558
Speaker 2: Well, you know, quite frankly, you argue differently with different

531
00:25:30,638 --> 00:25:34,478
Speaker 2: umpires too, just based on whether the competency level and

532
00:25:34,518 --> 00:25:36,518
Speaker 2: how you feel about them personally. It's just the truth

533
00:25:36,958 --> 00:25:38,398
Speaker 2: I mean, there are certain guys I won't argue with.

534
00:25:38,478 --> 00:25:40,198
Speaker 2: I'll stand in a dugout and I'll say to my

535
00:25:40,278 --> 00:25:43,038
Speaker 2: pitchy coach or my bench coach, I'm not gonna argue

536
00:25:43,038 --> 00:25:45,078
Speaker 2: with so and so tonight. I can't do it. The

537
00:25:45,078 --> 00:25:47,438
Speaker 2: guy's good due you know, he works his butt off.

538
00:25:47,518 --> 00:25:49,678
Speaker 2: Sometimes he's not right, but I can't. And then you

539
00:25:49,718 --> 00:25:52,878
Speaker 2: might get a more arrogant umpire that even the smallest

540
00:25:52,918 --> 00:25:55,198
Speaker 2: thing you're out there, you're running out there to argue

541
00:25:55,198 --> 00:25:59,358
Speaker 2: something just based on the personality possibly conflict with that.

542
00:25:59,838 --> 00:26:02,878
Speaker 2: So that does make a difference quite frankly. It does

543
00:26:02,998 --> 00:26:06,518
Speaker 2: language well. When I first started out in the minor leagues,

544
00:26:06,758 --> 00:26:09,318
Speaker 2: my first dejection was an Idaho false Idaho and the

545
00:26:09,758 --> 00:26:13,318
Speaker 2: plate normal marker got thrown out. And I always wondered

546
00:26:13,318 --> 00:26:15,518
Speaker 2: before that, how do I argue? How do you argue? What?

547
00:26:15,678 --> 00:26:17,958
Speaker 2: And what do you argue? And I'd find out real quickly,

548
00:26:17,998 --> 00:26:21,238
Speaker 2: you just do it. So that is part of it.

549
00:26:21,678 --> 00:26:25,558
Speaker 2: But if I really was too demonstrative and said things

550
00:26:25,558 --> 00:26:29,198
Speaker 2: that really I get done, I go into the clubhouse,

551
00:26:29,238 --> 00:26:31,918
Speaker 2: I say, wow, that was stupid. So the next day

552
00:26:32,478 --> 00:26:34,558
Speaker 2: we take the lineup card out. I would rush out

553
00:26:34,638 --> 00:26:37,198
Speaker 2: before the other manager would come out, I'd get to

554
00:26:37,238 --> 00:26:40,878
Speaker 2: the umpires and say, listen, I'm really sorry for the

555
00:26:40,958 --> 00:26:44,398
Speaker 2: language I used yesterday. I need to be better than that. However,

556
00:26:44,798 --> 00:26:46,518
Speaker 2: if I need to come back out again today, I'm

557
00:26:46,598 --> 00:26:49,198
Speaker 2: going to, but just want you to apologize for the

558
00:26:49,198 --> 00:26:51,838
Speaker 2: way I stayed at myself yesterday. And I would do that,

559
00:26:52,198 --> 00:26:54,318
Speaker 2: and I would if anything, it made me feel better.

560
00:26:54,358 --> 00:26:56,798
Speaker 2: So all these things are part of the game on

561
00:26:56,838 --> 00:27:01,318
Speaker 2: a daily basis. It's human nature, it's humanity, it's people,

562
00:27:01,398 --> 00:27:05,318
Speaker 2: and there's likes and dislikes. There's there's people that are

563
00:27:05,358 --> 00:27:09,358
Speaker 2: more confrontational others that are not, and you react accordingly.

564
00:27:09,718 --> 00:27:12,718
Speaker 2: It's just true. Young umpire, you might get into a

565
00:27:12,758 --> 00:27:14,758
Speaker 2: little bit more than an old established upire that's been

566
00:27:14,798 --> 00:27:17,518
Speaker 2: around that you know, it's just the way it is.

567
00:27:17,758 --> 00:27:21,478
Speaker 2: You actually prefer if something comes up that you don't

568
00:27:21,478 --> 00:27:23,958
Speaker 2: really know the umpire that well yet. And I got

569
00:27:23,958 --> 00:27:25,638
Speaker 2: to the point where I stopped taking the lineup card

570
00:27:25,638 --> 00:27:26,918
Speaker 2: out because they didn't want to get to know some

571
00:27:26,998 --> 00:27:29,398
Speaker 2: of these guys they were coming into the league, because

572
00:27:29,398 --> 00:27:31,478
Speaker 2: then it was easier to go argue with them as

573
00:27:31,478 --> 00:27:33,278
Speaker 2: opposed like the Jerry Lanes of the world. I can't

574
00:27:33,358 --> 00:27:36,238
Speaker 2: argue with Jerry. I could not argue with Jerry. He

575
00:27:36,318 --> 00:27:38,318
Speaker 2: just couldn't do it. I just liked him that much.

576
00:27:38,638 --> 00:27:40,438
Speaker 2: He's that good of a dude. Like I said, Teddy

577
00:27:40,838 --> 00:27:42,878
Speaker 2: is another one of those guys, and the list goes on,

578
00:27:43,638 --> 00:27:45,958
Speaker 2: but I could and listen. I like Joe West a lot.

579
00:27:45,998 --> 00:27:47,318
Speaker 2: I thought Joe West is one of the better on

580
00:27:47,438 --> 00:27:51,038
Speaker 2: parts have top three ever. But Joe and I would

581
00:27:51,078 --> 00:27:54,438
Speaker 2: just argue because we had to argue about things. But

582
00:27:54,518 --> 00:27:56,598
Speaker 2: I still believe he's one of the best I've ever

583
00:27:56,638 --> 00:27:58,598
Speaker 2: been around. And I always felt good when the umpart

584
00:27:58,598 --> 00:28:01,598
Speaker 2: of the game. There might be separate things that occurred

585
00:28:02,958 --> 00:28:06,078
Speaker 2: that Joe would do that would not. However, I thought,

586
00:28:06,118 --> 00:28:07,518
Speaker 2: you know, balls and strikes when he was in his

587
00:28:07,638 --> 00:28:11,438
Speaker 2: prime and before instant replay stuff, he was good on

588
00:28:11,478 --> 00:28:14,158
Speaker 2: the basis too, and I just and again he's good

589
00:28:14,158 --> 00:28:17,078
Speaker 2: for the game. Was nobody came the scene, but everybody

590
00:28:17,318 --> 00:28:19,038
Speaker 2: enjoyed watching Joe westno party game.

591
00:28:19,318 --> 00:28:20,798
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was sort of the beauty of the

592
00:28:20,878 --> 00:28:24,558
Speaker 1: argument with Aaron Boone in Chicago was that Las Dia

593
00:28:24,598 --> 00:28:27,118
Speaker 1: is a little more old school. Obviously, he's a veteran umpire,

594
00:28:27,198 --> 00:28:29,278
Speaker 1: been around. Yeah, he gave it back to Aaron Boone.

595
00:28:29,478 --> 00:28:31,998
Speaker 1: That was kind of cool to see. It's been years,

596
00:28:32,038 --> 00:28:34,758
Speaker 1: I think, since I've seen actually the umpire and the

597
00:28:34,798 --> 00:28:38,518
Speaker 1: manager go at it back and forth. So, by the way,

598
00:28:38,598 --> 00:28:41,918
Speaker 1: real quick, Joe on the Yankees, give me your take

599
00:28:41,998 --> 00:28:42,358
Speaker 1: on them.

600
00:28:42,598 --> 00:28:43,958
Speaker 3: I think they were in a lot of trouble.

601
00:28:44,478 --> 00:28:48,558
Speaker 1: My rule of thumb generally is if you're any more

602
00:28:48,638 --> 00:28:52,478
Speaker 1: than one game per week left in the season out

603
00:28:52,518 --> 00:28:55,238
Speaker 1: of a playoff spot, you're in trouble. One picking up

604
00:28:55,278 --> 00:28:57,518
Speaker 1: one game a week is probably like the max, so

605
00:28:57,558 --> 00:29:00,598
Speaker 1: you can think, and the Yankees are getting to that point,

606
00:29:00,838 --> 00:29:03,238
Speaker 1: being five and a half out here with seven left.

607
00:29:03,518 --> 00:29:05,718
Speaker 1: So I just think this team bet on what they

608
00:29:05,758 --> 00:29:07,878
Speaker 1: call the back of the baseball card, that guys would

609
00:29:07,918 --> 00:29:11,038
Speaker 1: come around and reach their levels. But I know whether

610
00:29:11,078 --> 00:29:14,558
Speaker 1: it's Rizzo who's on the il now, the post concussion syndrome,

611
00:29:14,878 --> 00:29:18,878
Speaker 1: DJ Lemayhew who's not hitting velocity, John Carlos Stanton who

612
00:29:18,998 --> 00:29:22,158
Speaker 1: just cannot get on any kind of his usual streaks.

613
00:29:22,358 --> 00:29:24,678
Speaker 1: I just see this going in one direction. I don't

614
00:29:24,718 --> 00:29:28,238
Speaker 1: know how it's going to get much better over these

615
00:29:28,358 --> 00:29:30,718
Speaker 1: last seven weeks for the Yankees to make up that

616
00:29:30,798 --> 00:29:32,918
Speaker 1: much ground on a really good Toronto team.

617
00:29:33,318 --> 00:29:35,198
Speaker 2: I would try to map it out exactly what you're

618
00:29:35,238 --> 00:29:37,198
Speaker 2: talking about. We have to make up one game a week.

619
00:29:37,238 --> 00:29:39,518
Speaker 2: When we did that with the Rays, we came back

620
00:29:39,558 --> 00:29:42,678
Speaker 2: from a ton of games on September one. I was

621
00:29:42,718 --> 00:29:44,318
Speaker 2: trying to figure out how many games a week do

622
00:29:44,318 --> 00:29:45,958
Speaker 2: we have to make up? And like you talked, that

623
00:29:46,038 --> 00:29:48,638
Speaker 2: we talked about before, that was just the demise of

624
00:29:48,638 --> 00:29:51,558
Speaker 2: the Red Sox combined with us playing pretty well. But yeah,

625
00:29:51,598 --> 00:29:56,238
Speaker 2: I think that's a great form of selling it to

626
00:29:56,238 --> 00:29:58,318
Speaker 2: your team. Listen, we got to make up one game week.

627
00:29:58,478 --> 00:30:01,958
Speaker 2: I think it's important to give your your group a

628
00:30:02,078 --> 00:30:05,798
Speaker 2: mental key or schematic. How are we going to do this?

629
00:30:06,518 --> 00:30:08,598
Speaker 2: And when you do that, it doesn't make it more

630
00:30:08,678 --> 00:30:11,278
Speaker 2: it makes it more possible in their mind's eye, and

631
00:30:11,678 --> 00:30:13,478
Speaker 2: I like that. The other thing is to consider, though,

632
00:30:13,478 --> 00:30:15,558
Speaker 2: even if it's one game, how many teams are in

633
00:30:15,558 --> 00:30:17,318
Speaker 2: front of you, How many teams are involved in this

634
00:30:17,438 --> 00:30:21,118
Speaker 2: When there's multiple teams, Man, it's so hard to leap

635
00:30:21,158 --> 00:30:23,798
Speaker 2: frog a bunch of teams as opposed to maybe just one,

636
00:30:24,038 --> 00:30:25,478
Speaker 2: which is what we had to do with the Raise.

637
00:30:25,998 --> 00:30:28,238
Speaker 2: So all this stuff is a part of it. But

638
00:30:28,278 --> 00:30:31,038
Speaker 2: I do agree with that. I like that formulation. But

639
00:30:31,118 --> 00:30:34,518
Speaker 2: again the Yankees, No, it's it's not gonna. I mean

640
00:30:34,558 --> 00:30:38,518
Speaker 2: we got Radon goes down, Radon goes down again, and

641
00:30:38,558 --> 00:30:40,758
Speaker 2: he's going to be down, and he wanted to pitch

642
00:30:40,798 --> 00:30:42,718
Speaker 2: what they're saying no, and who knows how if it's

643
00:30:42,758 --> 00:30:44,838
Speaker 2: actually a hamstring, there's no telling how long that's going

644
00:30:44,918 --> 00:30:47,598
Speaker 2: to take. Where Tess came back, you look great, obviously,

645
00:30:48,158 --> 00:30:50,198
Speaker 2: but nevertheless, I mean their team on the field, their

646
00:30:50,238 --> 00:30:52,838
Speaker 2: offensive part, that's just not gonna. You're not not going

647
00:30:52,918 --> 00:30:54,638
Speaker 2: to flip the switch there. They're playing, you know, with

648
00:30:54,718 --> 00:30:56,918
Speaker 2: a lot of guys that they did not expect to

649
00:30:56,918 --> 00:30:59,958
Speaker 2: be playing with right now. And you know, obviously, you

650
00:30:59,958 --> 00:31:01,838
Speaker 2: know a judge has to get out there as often

651
00:31:01,878 --> 00:31:03,278
Speaker 2: as you can. But I still think they're doing the

652
00:31:03,318 --> 00:31:06,078
Speaker 2: right thing bring him back slowly, because again, if they

653
00:31:06,118 --> 00:31:08,038
Speaker 2: just try to force him back in there after having

654
00:31:08,078 --> 00:31:10,118
Speaker 2: been out for a long time, they could have set

655
00:31:10,158 --> 00:31:12,158
Speaker 2: them up for another a different kind of an injury.

656
00:31:12,158 --> 00:31:14,358
Speaker 2: So I like that part of it. But yeah, it's

657
00:31:15,038 --> 00:31:16,878
Speaker 2: they have to almost be perfect. You have to be

658
00:31:16,878 --> 00:31:19,238
Speaker 2: almost like was there fifty games up? They have to

659
00:31:19,278 --> 00:31:21,998
Speaker 2: be like thirty five and fifteen goods something like that.

660
00:31:22,398 --> 00:31:25,718
Speaker 2: At least thirty and twenty good in order to get there.

661
00:31:26,318 --> 00:31:28,318
Speaker 2: But I think it's going to take something extraordinary, like

662
00:31:28,358 --> 00:31:31,198
Speaker 2: a thirty five and fifteen record over a fifty game

663
00:31:31,238 --> 00:31:32,998
Speaker 2: span in order to really get back where you want

664
00:31:32,998 --> 00:31:33,158
Speaker 2: to be.

665
00:31:33,678 --> 00:31:35,678
Speaker 1: One of the things we love to talk about here

666
00:31:35,718 --> 00:31:38,878
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and Joe has been a master at

667
00:31:38,918 --> 00:31:41,078
Speaker 1: it at the major league level, is culture.

668
00:31:41,478 --> 00:31:44,318
Speaker 3: And I know it. That word gets thrown around a lot.

669
00:31:44,478 --> 00:31:45,878
Speaker 3: It's a big buzzword, not.

670
00:31:45,838 --> 00:31:48,318
Speaker 1: Just in baseball, but in the business world as well,

671
00:31:48,878 --> 00:31:52,798
Speaker 1: and in Chicago. White Sox offer us a really good

672
00:31:52,838 --> 00:31:57,158
Speaker 1: Peatrie dishcase on culture and what happens when it doesn't work.

673
00:31:57,638 --> 00:31:59,278
Speaker 3: We'll dive into that right after this.

674
00:32:09,118 --> 00:32:11,998
Speaker 1: Okay, Joe I talked about culture and the White Sox

675
00:32:12,038 --> 00:32:14,398
Speaker 1: and it was really brought to the forefront and a

676
00:32:14,438 --> 00:32:19,078
Speaker 1: story on ESPN and a guy you had with the Angels,

677
00:32:19,238 --> 00:32:21,918
Speaker 1: Keenan Middleton pointed out the fact that he said the

678
00:32:21,958 --> 00:32:25,398
Speaker 1: White Sox have allousy culture, the lack of leadership, Guys

679
00:32:25,438 --> 00:32:28,878
Speaker 1: sleeping in the bullpen, people not showing up for early

680
00:32:28,958 --> 00:32:32,438
Speaker 1: pitchers fielding practice and getting a pass, Guys not showing

681
00:32:32,518 --> 00:32:36,078
Speaker 1: up for meetings, getting a pass. Now the White Sox

682
00:32:36,118 --> 00:32:40,358
Speaker 1: pushed back on this, but clearly something is a miss

683
00:32:40,398 --> 00:32:43,598
Speaker 1: with a team that a lot of people thought had underachieved.

684
00:32:44,038 --> 00:32:46,638
Speaker 1: I never liked the White Sox. I didn't pick them

685
00:32:46,638 --> 00:32:50,158
Speaker 1: to win. I like Minnesota and Cleveland better than Chicago.

686
00:32:50,198 --> 00:32:53,518
Speaker 1: But that's beside the point. When you hear things like this, Joe,

687
00:32:53,838 --> 00:32:57,158
Speaker 1: when a player airs let's call it thirty laundry and

688
00:32:57,278 --> 00:33:00,318
Speaker 1: calls out and to me most directly the manager, but

689
00:33:00,518 --> 00:33:04,158
Speaker 1: especially the organization, that things aren't right in the clubhouse house.

690
00:33:05,078 --> 00:33:06,758
Speaker 3: How did you respond to that? What did you think

691
00:33:06,798 --> 00:33:07,078
Speaker 3: of that?

692
00:33:07,278 --> 00:33:09,518
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, I mean, first of all, quite frankly, had

693
00:33:09,518 --> 00:33:11,478
Speaker 2: no business doing that. I don't think. I mean, this

694
00:33:11,558 --> 00:33:13,278
Speaker 2: is a guy that was on a minor league contract

695
00:33:13,358 --> 00:33:16,958
Speaker 2: coming into the season, and really, I mean, he's got

696
00:33:16,958 --> 00:33:19,558
Speaker 2: a great arm, he's been somewhat successful, and I don't

697
00:33:19,558 --> 00:33:23,478
Speaker 2: even know that that should be the prerequisite, however, coming

698
00:33:23,478 --> 00:33:27,318
Speaker 2: from him and to create or stirrup the hornetsness as

699
00:33:27,398 --> 00:33:29,118
Speaker 2: much as it has. I didn't like that at all,

700
00:33:29,558 --> 00:33:32,918
Speaker 2: quite frankly, So I'll just start with that.

701
00:33:33,758 --> 00:33:36,678
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me point out, y'all just interrupt briefly

702
00:33:36,718 --> 00:33:39,398
Speaker 1: that Rick Hahon, the general manager, pointed out that a

703
00:33:39,478 --> 00:33:43,278
Speaker 1: week before Middleton was traded to the Yankees, they had

704
00:33:43,278 --> 00:33:48,398
Speaker 1: a conversation and according to Han, Middleton actually apologized for

705
00:33:48,438 --> 00:33:52,438
Speaker 1: his own professional unprofessional behavior and had been called out

706
00:33:52,478 --> 00:33:55,958
Speaker 1: by the manager Pedro Griffall. So they were blown away

707
00:33:56,038 --> 00:33:58,598
Speaker 1: that these accusations were coming from a guy who, according

708
00:33:58,638 --> 00:34:02,038
Speaker 1: to Rick Hahn, had apologized for his own unprofessional behavior.

709
00:34:02,158 --> 00:34:04,038
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, when we start listening to every but

710
00:34:04,238 --> 00:34:08,598
Speaker 2: that's just the nature of our world right now. This

711
00:34:08,678 --> 00:34:11,878
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily a social media situation. But everybody has a

712
00:34:11,958 --> 00:34:15,758
Speaker 2: voice right now, and it's a non vetted voice most

713
00:34:15,798 --> 00:34:18,518
Speaker 2: of the time. And somebody puts this out there, then

714
00:34:18,518 --> 00:34:20,718
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, everybody's got to start answering questions

715
00:34:20,718 --> 00:34:22,238
Speaker 2: for this. Of course they have not been good. Of

716
00:34:22,278 --> 00:34:25,518
Speaker 2: course there's probably something wrong. Of course, all of that

717
00:34:25,558 --> 00:34:29,798
Speaker 2: has to be true, no question, but to be exposed

718
00:34:29,798 --> 00:34:32,358
Speaker 2: in the way that it was by a relief picture

719
00:34:32,438 --> 00:34:34,438
Speaker 2: going from one team to the other, Because my concern

720
00:34:34,438 --> 00:34:37,038
Speaker 2: would be, like, when he goes to the next team,

721
00:34:37,238 --> 00:34:39,278
Speaker 2: what's that conversation going to be? Like? Listen, I like

722
00:34:39,358 --> 00:34:41,518
Speaker 2: the kid. He and I had great conversations. We used

723
00:34:41,518 --> 00:34:43,158
Speaker 2: to sit and talk all the time. He's very bright.

724
00:34:43,438 --> 00:34:46,678
Speaker 2: He's a bright kid, So that part, it's a little

725
00:34:46,718 --> 00:34:48,958
Speaker 2: bit surprised with all of that. And I would hope

726
00:34:48,998 --> 00:34:51,718
Speaker 2: and wish that that that gets settled somehow and everybody

727
00:34:51,798 --> 00:34:53,998
Speaker 2: learns from this, because it's not necessary. It's not necessary.

728
00:34:54,038 --> 00:34:55,318
Speaker 2: I do you have that kind of an issue, you

729
00:34:55,358 --> 00:34:58,198
Speaker 2: go talk to a rick On or the skipper or

730
00:34:58,198 --> 00:35:01,518
Speaker 2: whomever to go somewhere else, and eric like that. I

731
00:35:01,598 --> 00:35:04,958
Speaker 2: didn't like that number one, number two culture. Yeah, I

732
00:35:04,998 --> 00:35:07,158
Speaker 2: mean I've said it. We talked about it the other day.

733
00:35:07,198 --> 00:35:09,478
Speaker 2: I just haven't like the way they played. Even you know,

734
00:35:09,478 --> 00:35:11,558
Speaker 2: when I was still with the Eagles, there there was

735
00:35:12,278 --> 00:35:14,798
Speaker 2: a way that they didn't play. I mean we opened

736
00:35:14,878 --> 00:35:18,838
Speaker 2: up against them in Anaheim a couple years ago when

737
00:35:19,238 --> 00:35:21,358
Speaker 2: a show had that great game we beat Ce's hit

738
00:35:21,398 --> 00:35:24,958
Speaker 2: a bomb to right central, balling off Robert Head, Roberts

739
00:35:24,958 --> 00:35:26,998
Speaker 2: Head on a fly ball coming in. There was just

740
00:35:27,038 --> 00:35:30,198
Speaker 2: an unbridled way that they played. And I didn't see

741
00:35:30,198 --> 00:35:33,078
Speaker 2: like a lot of structure about the game and how

742
00:35:33,078 --> 00:35:35,878
Speaker 2: they played the game. A lot of great athletes, but

743
00:35:35,958 --> 00:35:38,518
Speaker 2: culturally there just didn't seem to be a method of operation.

744
00:35:38,998 --> 00:35:43,158
Speaker 2: Best way to describe it. You watch Baltimore right now Ruschman,

745
00:35:43,198 --> 00:35:45,758
Speaker 2: I saw him hit a kind of a base hit

746
00:35:46,198 --> 00:35:48,118
Speaker 2: to right center, not like to the wall whatever, but

747
00:35:48,158 --> 00:35:49,998
Speaker 2: this guy made it into a double. They run hard

748
00:35:50,438 --> 00:35:54,398
Speaker 2: every time from home to second base. That's part of

749
00:35:54,438 --> 00:35:57,398
Speaker 2: culture right there. That's culture. Just the way they go

750
00:35:57,438 --> 00:36:01,078
Speaker 2: about their business. You watch Hydher in the dugout, never

751
00:36:01,998 --> 00:36:04,438
Speaker 2: varies in his facial expression, good or bad, which I

752
00:36:04,478 --> 00:36:06,478
Speaker 2: think is the right way to do things. And that

753
00:36:06,718 --> 00:36:09,598
Speaker 2: really bleeds down to the rest of the group culture

754
00:36:10,718 --> 00:36:13,078
Speaker 2: just and again, just the way they play the game,

755
00:36:13,318 --> 00:36:16,358
Speaker 2: and they're they're never out of it. They just played

756
00:36:16,398 --> 00:36:19,838
Speaker 2: in a hard manner. And again, what's the conversation like

757
00:36:19,878 --> 00:36:23,198
Speaker 2: in the clubhouse? What is what are their meetings, How

758
00:36:23,238 --> 00:36:25,598
Speaker 2: are their meetings conducted, and how often do they have meetings,

759
00:36:25,598 --> 00:36:27,798
Speaker 2: and who's running the meetings and what's being set in

760
00:36:27,838 --> 00:36:30,798
Speaker 2: the meetings. All those things matter, But it really comes

761
00:36:30,838 --> 00:36:34,198
Speaker 2: down to how the players perceive the manager in the

762
00:36:34,238 --> 00:36:37,238
Speaker 2: tone that he sets and what the expectations are. And

763
00:36:37,278 --> 00:36:41,998
Speaker 2: then how you enforced and not enforced is not a

764
00:36:42,038 --> 00:36:45,038
Speaker 2: really good word. Did you monitor these expectations to make

765
00:36:45,078 --> 00:36:47,678
Speaker 2: sure that they're being adhered to on a daily basis

766
00:36:47,758 --> 00:36:50,678
Speaker 2: and that you have tough conversations to keep drawing it back,

767
00:36:50,758 --> 00:36:52,638
Speaker 2: drawing it back, drawing it back. This is what we

768
00:36:52,678 --> 00:36:54,758
Speaker 2: talked about in spring training. We can't get far away

769
00:36:54,758 --> 00:36:56,718
Speaker 2: from this. This is what we said we were going

770
00:36:56,758 --> 00:36:58,598
Speaker 2: to be. This is how we work. So we did

771
00:36:58,638 --> 00:37:00,838
Speaker 2: in the camp, and this is these are These are

772
00:37:00,918 --> 00:37:04,558
Speaker 2: our personal expectations, exclusive of everybody else else, which should

773
00:37:04,558 --> 00:37:08,598
Speaker 2: be the expectations that are necessary, not anybody else's. So

774
00:37:09,118 --> 00:37:11,638
Speaker 2: culture is big, and that's the thing with the White Sox.

775
00:37:11,678 --> 00:37:13,398
Speaker 2: I just didn't like. I didn't like the game that

776
00:37:13,398 --> 00:37:15,398
Speaker 2: they played. I thought it was too loose, and I

777
00:37:15,438 --> 00:37:17,998
Speaker 2: didn't see anything specifically they had. But they have great

778
00:37:18,038 --> 00:37:20,118
Speaker 2: talent and I'm sure they're going to be really good

779
00:37:20,158 --> 00:37:22,758
Speaker 2: in the very near future. But that's what I've seen

780
00:37:22,798 --> 00:37:26,558
Speaker 2: with them. So, yes, culture matters. People that make fun

781
00:37:26,598 --> 00:37:28,558
Speaker 2: of it. We mock what we don't understand. So if

782
00:37:28,558 --> 00:37:31,998
Speaker 2: you've never really had to build a culture within a

783
00:37:32,038 --> 00:37:34,518
Speaker 2: business or in a baseball team, in a clubhouse, in

784
00:37:34,518 --> 00:37:37,318
Speaker 2: your family, if you've never really done that before, it's

785
00:37:37,358 --> 00:37:39,358
Speaker 2: foreign to you, and you will. We always mock what

786
00:37:39,398 --> 00:37:40,238
Speaker 2: we don't understand.

787
00:37:40,558 --> 00:37:42,558
Speaker 1: Joe, let me ask you about this as it relates

788
00:37:42,598 --> 00:37:45,438
Speaker 1: to the manager's responsibility with culture. And this was brought

789
00:37:45,518 --> 00:37:48,878
Speaker 1: up by Rick Han and again pedrograph rookie manager. It's

790
00:37:48,878 --> 00:37:51,158
Speaker 1: his first major league job, first year obviously with the

791
00:37:51,158 --> 00:37:54,958
Speaker 1: White Sox, and Rick Han said, sort of in defense

792
00:37:54,998 --> 00:37:58,638
Speaker 1: of Pedro, it does take a manager a certain amount

793
00:37:58,678 --> 00:38:03,158
Speaker 1: of time to implement the culture that they want, and

794
00:38:03,198 --> 00:38:06,318
Speaker 1: he said, I know that Pedro wanted to sit back

795
00:38:06,398 --> 00:38:09,878
Speaker 1: and wait to see what culture developed in the clubhouse

796
00:38:10,398 --> 00:38:13,118
Speaker 1: before he put his fingerprints on it.

797
00:38:13,918 --> 00:38:18,118
Speaker 3: That sounds a little passive to me. But you've been there,

798
00:38:18,278 --> 00:38:18,838
Speaker 3: you know it.

799
00:38:19,838 --> 00:38:23,398
Speaker 1: You've taken over teams that had, let's face it, not

800
00:38:23,598 --> 00:38:26,758
Speaker 1: just a losing history, but kind of a losing way

801
00:38:26,798 --> 00:38:31,078
Speaker 1: about them. Give me a sense of your take when

802
00:38:31,158 --> 00:38:33,318
Speaker 1: you take over a team you're new of the team.

803
00:38:33,918 --> 00:38:36,078
Speaker 1: Does it take a long time to implement culture?

804
00:38:37,718 --> 00:38:39,998
Speaker 2: Yes and no. I mean you have to walk in

805
00:38:39,998 --> 00:38:43,478
Speaker 2: the door that first day specifically outlining whatever culture you

806
00:38:43,518 --> 00:38:46,998
Speaker 2: want to have there. I believe so it starts with

807
00:38:47,038 --> 00:38:49,478
Speaker 2: that in your team meeting, in your first address with

808
00:38:49,518 --> 00:38:53,038
Speaker 2: the group, you outline specifically what is important here, what

809
00:38:53,038 --> 00:38:54,718
Speaker 2: we're going to try to accomplish, and who we're going

810
00:38:54,758 --> 00:38:56,438
Speaker 2: to be and how we're going to be That what

811
00:38:56,478 --> 00:38:58,158
Speaker 2: are we going to emphasize. For me, it was like simple,

812
00:38:58,198 --> 00:39:01,078
Speaker 2: we're gonna run hard to first base, respect ninety feet.

813
00:39:01,398 --> 00:39:03,278
Speaker 2: And I thought, if you did that, then that's going

814
00:39:03,318 --> 00:39:06,558
Speaker 2: to permeate the position players throughout. And if they did that,

815
00:39:06,598 --> 00:39:09,998
Speaker 2: they're going to be paying more attention on defense, they're

816
00:39:09,998 --> 00:39:12,078
Speaker 2: going to work better at bats, they're going to do

817
00:39:12,158 --> 00:39:15,438
Speaker 2: everything to a higher level just by respecting that ninety feet.

818
00:39:16,038 --> 00:39:17,758
Speaker 2: And weirdly, I mean, I mean, I don't know if people

819
00:39:17,758 --> 00:39:19,638
Speaker 2: would agree with this or not, but the pitchers. All

820
00:39:19,678 --> 00:39:21,678
Speaker 2: they wanted pitchers to do was work on their defense,

821
00:39:21,918 --> 00:39:24,238
Speaker 2: holding runners, your move the first base, make sure that

822
00:39:24,278 --> 00:39:27,398
Speaker 2: you become proficient at defense, and do that more consistently

823
00:39:27,998 --> 00:39:31,358
Speaker 2: and not just in spring training. And stop working on

824
00:39:31,398 --> 00:39:34,038
Speaker 2: your defense. So those are the two ONTs I had,

825
00:39:34,398 --> 00:39:36,958
Speaker 2: and I thought from that everything else would take shape

826
00:39:37,038 --> 00:39:39,958
Speaker 2: or form from that. So I would do that. I

827
00:39:39,958 --> 00:39:44,918
Speaker 2: would I would create an outline and be very specific

828
00:39:44,998 --> 00:39:47,118
Speaker 2: about it. Nine equals eight with the Rays in two

829
00:39:47,158 --> 00:39:50,598
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, nine players playing nine innings hard eventure

830
00:39:50,638 --> 00:39:51,798
Speaker 2: is going to lead to us to be one of

831
00:39:51,838 --> 00:39:54,598
Speaker 2: the nine teams. Are eight teams in the playoffs, so

832
00:39:54,758 --> 00:39:57,278
Speaker 2: nine would equals eight and then I went into nine

833
00:39:57,278 --> 00:39:59,998
Speaker 2: more wins offensively, nine more wins defensively, nine more wins

834
00:40:00,718 --> 00:40:02,558
Speaker 2: from the pitching staff. These you know, you give them

835
00:40:02,558 --> 00:40:06,358
Speaker 2: specific thoughts to think about, and if you have that

836
00:40:06,438 --> 00:40:09,158
Speaker 2: on a daily basis, either to think about or be

837
00:40:09,278 --> 00:40:12,678
Speaker 2: brought brought back to that for me or some of

838
00:40:12,718 --> 00:40:14,758
Speaker 2: the coaching staff, or some visuals. I would post in

839
00:40:14,798 --> 00:40:16,758
Speaker 2: the locker room, this is who we are and this

840
00:40:16,798 --> 00:40:18,118
Speaker 2: is what we're trying to be. And then when it

841
00:40:18,118 --> 00:40:22,798
Speaker 2: comes to screamlining, yeah, once you get this out there,

842
00:40:22,878 --> 00:40:26,638
Speaker 2: then it's really about my lead bull meeting as an example,

843
00:40:26,678 --> 00:40:28,758
Speaker 2: where I would try to get the most influential players

844
00:40:28,758 --> 00:40:31,158
Speaker 2: within the team in a room and we would talk

845
00:40:31,198 --> 00:40:33,918
Speaker 2: about our policies. I refrained from using the word rules

846
00:40:34,878 --> 00:40:37,398
Speaker 2: too hard fast two set in stone. I want policy

847
00:40:37,438 --> 00:40:40,238
Speaker 2: that's a little bit more malleable, but nevertheless a guideline.

848
00:40:40,638 --> 00:40:42,318
Speaker 2: And we sit there with who I perceived to be

849
00:40:42,398 --> 00:40:44,558
Speaker 2: the most influential guys on the team, and we would

850
00:40:44,638 --> 00:40:47,438
Speaker 2: go through that and then by the time we got

851
00:40:47,598 --> 00:40:49,158
Speaker 2: like maybe eight or nine guys, and then when they

852
00:40:49,158 --> 00:40:51,358
Speaker 2: were done, I wanted them to carry the message to

853
00:40:51,398 --> 00:40:54,198
Speaker 2: the players. I didn't want to be dictating to the

854
00:40:54,238 --> 00:40:56,758
Speaker 2: players the rest of the group, exactly what we're going

855
00:40:56,798 --> 00:40:59,478
Speaker 2: to do on a daily basis. That's your clubhouse. You

856
00:40:59,598 --> 00:41:02,318
Speaker 2: come here every day. I want you guys to run this.

857
00:41:02,398 --> 00:41:04,998
Speaker 2: It only comes back to me if he gets dire,

858
00:41:05,438 --> 00:41:07,518
Speaker 2: if you can't agree on things, if it gets out

859
00:41:07,518 --> 00:41:10,678
Speaker 2: of hands, if we're getting away from this established culture,

860
00:41:10,878 --> 00:41:14,238
Speaker 2: and then it's time for me to interfere again. So yeah,

861
00:41:14,798 --> 00:41:16,438
Speaker 2: I'm trying to be specific. This is what I would do.

862
00:41:16,598 --> 00:41:20,678
Speaker 2: I mindfully did it when I walked in the door

863
00:41:21,078 --> 00:41:24,558
Speaker 2: in Tampa Bay only based on so many years of

864
00:41:24,638 --> 00:41:26,478
Speaker 2: running the minor leagues with the Angels. The things I'm

865
00:41:26,478 --> 00:41:30,038
Speaker 2: talking about now were the absolutes that I had held

866
00:41:30,398 --> 00:41:33,158
Speaker 2: and learned from other guys that I brought and I

867
00:41:33,278 --> 00:41:36,118
Speaker 2: tried to outline and define for myself an the Angel

868
00:41:36,118 --> 00:41:38,278
Speaker 2: minor league system. And then eventually I get to the Rays,

869
00:41:38,278 --> 00:41:40,558
Speaker 2: I walk in the door. I was able to go

870
00:41:40,598 --> 00:41:43,158
Speaker 2: on and on and on about these different things because

871
00:41:43,238 --> 00:41:45,278
Speaker 2: I believe this and I thought this is the right

872
00:41:45,318 --> 00:41:47,958
Speaker 2: way to do things. Getting to the Cubs somewhat easier

873
00:41:47,998 --> 00:41:51,158
Speaker 2: because worked really well with the Rays, I gained even

874
00:41:51,198 --> 00:41:54,478
Speaker 2: more confidence, and then with the Angel same thing. You know,

875
00:41:54,918 --> 00:41:56,638
Speaker 2: COVID hurt a little bit. We got off to a

876
00:41:56,638 --> 00:41:59,518
Speaker 2: great start my last year there, then eventually had a

877
00:41:59,558 --> 00:42:02,678
Speaker 2: little bit of a rough street. But all this stuff works,

878
00:42:02,718 --> 00:42:05,718
Speaker 2: but you have to be specific. You have to stay

879
00:42:05,758 --> 00:42:09,398
Speaker 2: with it. Every day matters, every day counts, and the

880
00:42:09,438 --> 00:42:11,998
Speaker 2: accountability worder factor is huge.

881
00:42:12,438 --> 00:42:14,718
Speaker 1: You know, Joe, when you were going through that and

882
00:42:14,758 --> 00:42:18,678
Speaker 1: you're basically talking about empowering your players right and stepping

883
00:42:18,678 --> 00:42:20,918
Speaker 1: in when you need to step in, it reminded me

884
00:42:20,958 --> 00:42:24,038
Speaker 1: of that great episode we had with Max Weinberg, drummer

885
00:42:24,078 --> 00:42:26,558
Speaker 1: for the East Street Band, who talked about Bruce Springsteen

886
00:42:26,678 --> 00:42:27,718
Speaker 1: and the way it was set up.

887
00:42:27,758 --> 00:42:30,318
Speaker 3: He called it a benevolent dictatorship.

888
00:42:30,398 --> 00:42:31,238
Speaker 2: Right, that's right.

889
00:42:31,958 --> 00:42:33,158
Speaker 3: I love that description.

890
00:42:33,478 --> 00:42:35,918
Speaker 2: That's true, I mean, and that is true because you

891
00:42:35,958 --> 00:42:38,958
Speaker 2: have to you are in charge. The buck does stop there.

892
00:42:38,998 --> 00:42:42,278
Speaker 2: It's your Harry Truman. Absolutely you are. But at the

893
00:42:42,318 --> 00:42:45,518
Speaker 2: same time, for me, the less involved I needed to be,

894
00:42:45,838 --> 00:42:48,358
Speaker 2: the better this thing would run. So talk to Billy

895
00:42:48,398 --> 00:42:51,238
Speaker 2: Vivasi about this and he agreed with me. When you

896
00:42:51,278 --> 00:42:53,758
Speaker 2: walk in the door on a daily basis, I walk

897
00:42:53,758 --> 00:42:55,878
Speaker 2: in whatever two thirty three o'clock in the afternoon for

898
00:42:55,878 --> 00:42:58,278
Speaker 2: a seven o'clock game. If you walk in the door

899
00:42:58,318 --> 00:42:59,878
Speaker 2: and feel like you have nothing to do, you've done

900
00:42:59,878 --> 00:43:01,838
Speaker 2: a great job. If you walk in the door and

901
00:43:01,838 --> 00:43:03,158
Speaker 2: you feel like, I got to do this, I got

902
00:43:03,238 --> 00:43:05,038
Speaker 2: to do that, I got to do this, you have

903
00:43:05,118 --> 00:43:06,918
Speaker 2: not done a great job of setting this up, because

904
00:43:06,958 --> 00:43:08,998
Speaker 2: then you have not empowered the proper people. When you

905
00:43:09,078 --> 00:43:14,798
Speaker 2: empower the group, when things go poorly, that's when it

906
00:43:14,838 --> 00:43:18,078
Speaker 2: really pays off. When things go well, everybody's magnificent, there's

907
00:43:18,078 --> 00:43:21,878
Speaker 2: no concerns, everything flows. When things go poorly. If you

908
00:43:21,878 --> 00:43:24,238
Speaker 2: have not empowered the group, and it's been all about

909
00:43:24,278 --> 00:43:26,398
Speaker 2: you and your precepts and what you think is the

910
00:43:26,478 --> 00:43:29,278
Speaker 2: right thing the wrong thing to do, these folks scatter man,

911
00:43:29,758 --> 00:43:33,438
Speaker 2: they run, they jump off the ship very quickly because

912
00:43:33,438 --> 00:43:36,118
Speaker 2: they have not been given any responsibility in this whole thing.

913
00:43:36,598 --> 00:43:40,758
Speaker 2: And that's where this is my I've noticed this. I

914
00:43:40,758 --> 00:43:43,278
Speaker 2: don't think this is prevalent anymore. I think there's too

915
00:43:43,358 --> 00:43:46,558
Speaker 2: much control coming from top, and with that there's not

916
00:43:46,918 --> 00:43:49,598
Speaker 2: enough empowerment and trusting. You've hired people for a reason,

917
00:43:49,958 --> 00:43:52,998
Speaker 2: let them do their jobs. So that's a big part

918
00:43:52,998 --> 00:43:56,078
Speaker 2: of it. Also, for me, I think tried and true works,

919
00:43:56,118 --> 00:43:59,038
Speaker 2: I really do. I'm not a controlling guy at all.

920
00:43:59,078 --> 00:44:01,438
Speaker 2: When it comes to leadership. I know how to set

921
00:44:01,518 --> 00:44:04,878
Speaker 2: it up. Once it's set up, I wanted My job

922
00:44:05,078 --> 00:44:07,518
Speaker 2: is to, like I said, on a daily basis, make

923
00:44:07,518 --> 00:44:11,758
Speaker 2: sure that it's working properly, and if anybody needs my assistance,

924
00:44:11,838 --> 00:44:13,558
Speaker 2: I step in and of course I'll talk if they

925
00:44:13,558 --> 00:44:16,758
Speaker 2: come to me. Same thing, But to constantly interfere I

926
00:44:16,758 --> 00:44:17,558
Speaker 2: don't agree.

927
00:44:17,278 --> 00:44:18,038
Speaker 3: With it, Joe.

928
00:44:18,038 --> 00:44:20,318
Speaker 1: I want to bring this full circle and go back

929
00:44:20,358 --> 00:44:23,118
Speaker 1: to what we were talking about the relationship between managers

930
00:44:23,118 --> 00:44:26,358
Speaker 1: and umpires. And there may come a day and maybe

931
00:44:26,358 --> 00:44:29,358
Speaker 1: fairly soon or what we saw in Chicago with Boone

932
00:44:29,358 --> 00:44:30,598
Speaker 1: and las Diez going.

933
00:44:30,438 --> 00:44:32,438
Speaker 3: At it doesn't happen anymore.

934
00:44:32,878 --> 00:44:36,838
Speaker 1: If you're talking about a fully automated strike zone, I mean,

935
00:44:36,838 --> 00:44:37,958
Speaker 1: what's their left to argue?

936
00:44:38,038 --> 00:44:38,158
Speaker 2: Right?

937
00:44:38,198 --> 00:44:40,118
Speaker 1: We talked about how that's really gone away from the

938
00:44:40,158 --> 00:44:44,078
Speaker 1: bases because we have replay to settle quote unquote disputes.

939
00:44:44,678 --> 00:44:47,518
Speaker 3: Now, listen, I don't think baseball is going.

940
00:44:47,318 --> 00:44:51,278
Speaker 1: To immediately institute in a fully automatic strike zone. I

941
00:44:51,358 --> 00:44:53,838
Speaker 1: think they like the trials in the minor leagues, where

942
00:44:53,838 --> 00:44:56,158
Speaker 1: there is a challenge system. It can only be done

943
00:44:56,198 --> 00:44:58,238
Speaker 1: by the catcher, the batter or the pitcher, and you

944
00:44:58,278 --> 00:45:01,718
Speaker 1: get three challenges per game on a pitch. In other words,

945
00:45:01,758 --> 00:45:03,278
Speaker 1: it could be a three to two pitch off the

946
00:45:03,278 --> 00:45:06,438
Speaker 1: plate or a pitch like dj lemayhew took for called

947
00:45:06,478 --> 00:45:08,678
Speaker 1: strike three with a runner on third base less than

948
00:45:08,678 --> 00:45:09,118
Speaker 1: two outs.

949
00:45:09,198 --> 00:45:10,478
Speaker 3: Last he has called that a strike.

950
00:45:11,198 --> 00:45:14,038
Speaker 1: The batter has in the minor leagues right now the

951
00:45:14,038 --> 00:45:17,358
Speaker 1: opportunity to say, I challenge that, and we go to

952
00:45:17,398 --> 00:45:20,198
Speaker 1: the Hawkeye system, just like you see in tennis.

953
00:45:20,318 --> 00:45:21,718
Speaker 3: It's up on the jumbo tron.

954
00:45:21,878 --> 00:45:24,518
Speaker 1: Everybody finds out in real time whether that was actually

955
00:45:24,558 --> 00:45:26,878
Speaker 1: in the strike zone or not, and the call is

956
00:45:26,918 --> 00:45:31,318
Speaker 1: either upheld or we play on and you know, you

957
00:45:31,478 --> 00:45:32,198
Speaker 1: reverse the call.

958
00:45:32,878 --> 00:45:35,318
Speaker 3: So I'm just wondering what you think.

959
00:45:35,198 --> 00:45:38,078
Speaker 1: Joe, whether that it's sort of that hybrid system there,

960
00:45:38,118 --> 00:45:40,998
Speaker 1: or the replay challenge system is a good way to go,

961
00:45:41,438 --> 00:45:44,358
Speaker 1: or you talked about the human element of the game.

962
00:45:44,398 --> 00:45:46,878
Speaker 1: Are we going a little bit too far down the

963
00:45:46,998 --> 00:45:49,438
Speaker 1: road where we're taking the human element out of the game,

964
00:45:49,518 --> 00:45:52,358
Speaker 1: and you know, we have to get every call right

965
00:45:52,438 --> 00:45:55,598
Speaker 1: or close to it, and there's a cost to doing that.

966
00:45:55,958 --> 00:45:58,878
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the more technology, the less passion we

967
00:45:59,078 --> 00:46:02,438
Speaker 2: are emotion we have as a human being. We're talking

968
00:46:02,478 --> 00:46:05,518
Speaker 2: in an athletics sense right here. The more technology we've

969
00:46:05,518 --> 00:46:08,358
Speaker 2: permitted to the game, the less reason there is to

970
00:46:08,438 --> 00:46:11,438
Speaker 2: be emotional or passionate about something, because we'll just wait

971
00:46:11,478 --> 00:46:14,998
Speaker 2: and find out with the video replay indicates or with

972
00:46:15,158 --> 00:46:19,438
Speaker 2: the uh in this situation that the box and we'll

973
00:46:19,438 --> 00:46:21,438
Speaker 2: get that, we'll get that little ping yes or no,

974
00:46:22,118 --> 00:46:24,638
Speaker 2: and and eventually we're going to become moot. I mean,

975
00:46:24,678 --> 00:46:28,438
Speaker 2: we were just trying to make the situation where the

976
00:46:28,518 --> 00:46:31,078
Speaker 2: human being becomes a mood point and we're gonna with

977
00:46:31,238 --> 00:46:34,638
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence taking over, basically talking about that kind of

978
00:46:34,718 --> 00:46:37,118
Speaker 2: right here, where again a machine is going to tell

979
00:46:37,198 --> 00:46:39,838
Speaker 2: us right or wrong, and we're going to say we

980
00:46:40,158 --> 00:46:43,518
Speaker 2: trusted so much that it's accurate that that that we

981
00:46:43,518 --> 00:46:45,958
Speaker 2: we're going to step aside and just permit this to occur.

982
00:46:46,438 --> 00:46:50,118
Speaker 2: I don't like it. I don't like it at all. Again, Uh,

983
00:46:50,158 --> 00:46:54,678
Speaker 2: there's nothing again umpires. Yeah. I don't want a bad call.

984
00:46:54,718 --> 00:46:57,638
Speaker 2: I don't want a wrong call. But if there is

985
00:46:57,678 --> 00:47:00,278
Speaker 2: a wrong call, the ability to argue that wrong call

986
00:47:00,438 --> 00:47:04,038
Speaker 2: still makes our game somewhat more human and entertaining. And

987
00:47:04,078 --> 00:47:07,478
Speaker 2: I'm okay with that. I am I've talked to a

988
00:47:07,478 --> 00:47:11,278
Speaker 2: couple umpires about the potential for the automated strikes one

989
00:47:11,318 --> 00:47:14,038
Speaker 2: to come in, and part of that that's not spoken

990
00:47:14,078 --> 00:47:17,758
Speaker 2: about enough, I think is just the aesthetics of it,

991
00:47:17,798 --> 00:47:20,878
Speaker 2: the visuals where it's going to look like a ball

992
00:47:20,918 --> 00:47:22,158
Speaker 2: and it's going to be called the striker, it's going

993
00:47:22,198 --> 00:47:23,518
Speaker 2: to look like a striker, it's going to be called

994
00:47:23,518 --> 00:47:24,998
Speaker 2: the ball. Then all of a sudden you're going to

995
00:47:25,038 --> 00:47:28,758
Speaker 2: have that component to be dealt with. However, maybe that

996
00:47:28,758 --> 00:47:31,718
Speaker 2: I'm wrong with that too, because right now I thought

997
00:47:32,598 --> 00:47:35,678
Speaker 2: this year, with the clock and everything, there would be

998
00:47:35,678 --> 00:47:39,158
Speaker 2: more arguments when the time expires and there'd be an

999
00:47:39,198 --> 00:47:41,318
Speaker 2: argument about something like that, But that seems to have

1000
00:47:41,358 --> 00:47:43,318
Speaker 2: not been a part of it. Also because again we

1001
00:47:43,358 --> 00:47:47,558
Speaker 2: accept technology, we accept it blindly, and for me, quite frankly,

1002
00:47:47,558 --> 00:47:48,998
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it has to do with gambling,

1003
00:47:48,998 --> 00:47:51,238
Speaker 2: where there's so much gambling involved in our game right now,

1004
00:47:51,438 --> 00:47:53,798
Speaker 2: there's a need for everything to be accurate based on

1005
00:47:53,878 --> 00:47:56,158
Speaker 2: winning and losing a bet. So I think that's part

1006
00:47:56,158 --> 00:47:57,998
Speaker 2: of it that nobody even considers enough, and I think

1007
00:47:57,998 --> 00:48:01,278
Speaker 2: that's again part of the equation. So yes, I vote

1008
00:48:01,278 --> 00:48:04,798
Speaker 2: for the human being, I vote for the heartbeat. I

1009
00:48:04,798 --> 00:48:08,038
Speaker 2: think having the ability to overturn calls on the basis

1010
00:48:08,038 --> 00:48:11,918
Speaker 2: should be enough. After that, the part about the umpires,

1011
00:48:12,318 --> 00:48:14,838
Speaker 2: I like the idea and in half brand des bind

1012
00:48:14,878 --> 00:48:18,958
Speaker 2: me once and I liked it. That little earbud should

1013
00:48:18,958 --> 00:48:22,038
Speaker 2: be that to remind an umpire that that pitch was

1014
00:48:22,278 --> 00:48:24,318
Speaker 2: a strike and not a ball, but that was a

1015
00:48:24,318 --> 00:48:26,358
Speaker 2: ball and not a strike, so that the next time

1016
00:48:26,358 --> 00:48:28,118
Speaker 2: he sees that pitch he might make an adjustment. So

1017
00:48:28,158 --> 00:48:31,598
Speaker 2: I would not mind technology being utilized in that in

1018
00:48:31,598 --> 00:48:35,518
Speaker 2: that regard to just validate or verify a call, not

1019
00:48:35,598 --> 00:48:37,958
Speaker 2: all of them, just the ones that on occasion. I

1020
00:48:38,118 --> 00:48:40,438
Speaker 2: like it from that perspective, where may be able to

1021
00:48:40,478 --> 00:48:43,678
Speaker 2: adjust as mental visual strikes on. I think that would

1022
00:48:43,678 --> 00:48:46,958
Speaker 2: be good. But to constantly constantly turn our life and

1023
00:48:47,038 --> 00:48:52,118
Speaker 2: world over to machines and technology. The more we do that,

1024
00:48:52,198 --> 00:48:54,718
Speaker 2: the less emotion we're gonna have about what we actually do.

1025
00:48:55,198 --> 00:48:58,478
Speaker 3: Wow, that's a great suggestion. I had not heard that before, Joe.

1026
00:48:58,638 --> 00:49:01,358
Speaker 1: I mean, we know the umpires get files after a

1027
00:49:01,438 --> 00:49:04,438
Speaker 1: game that grade out every pitch a cord to the

1028
00:49:04,518 --> 00:49:08,598
Speaker 1: laser guided system, So why not actually do that in

1029
00:49:08,678 --> 00:49:11,318
Speaker 1: real time? You get a wrong answer on the test,

1030
00:49:11,638 --> 00:49:13,678
Speaker 1: you get it right then and there, and you say, Okay,

1031
00:49:13,958 --> 00:49:16,438
Speaker 1: I'm giving that pitch away a little bit too much.

1032
00:49:16,478 --> 00:49:18,478
Speaker 1: I have to bring that strike zone in a little bit.

1033
00:49:18,918 --> 00:49:21,198
Speaker 1: I've never heard that before. So good on the end

1034
00:49:21,198 --> 00:49:22,598
Speaker 1: app to come.

1035
00:49:22,478 --> 00:49:24,758
Speaker 3: Up with something. At least it's worth a discussion.

1036
00:49:24,878 --> 00:49:27,478
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ian's pretty sharp. We still have really good talks.

1037
00:49:27,518 --> 00:49:29,278
Speaker 2: When I was there with the Cubs, and I can't

1038
00:49:29,278 --> 00:49:32,158
Speaker 2: remember where I saw him when that became part of it,

1039
00:49:32,518 --> 00:49:35,678
Speaker 2: but I've actually been in umpire's rooms talking about this.

1040
00:49:35,878 --> 00:49:38,958
Speaker 2: Billy Miller took met his the umpire room and Cincinnati

1041
00:49:38,958 --> 00:49:41,718
Speaker 2: a couple years ago. We talked about this, specifically about

1042
00:49:41,718 --> 00:49:44,518
Speaker 2: the potential for the automated strike zone, and he pointed

1043
00:49:44,518 --> 00:49:46,238
Speaker 2: out different things to me that I'd not thought about

1044
00:49:46,278 --> 00:49:50,078
Speaker 2: to that point. So, yeah, it's an interesting topic. I

1045
00:49:50,158 --> 00:49:52,198
Speaker 2: just don't like the idea that we constantly hand over

1046
00:49:52,238 --> 00:49:55,118
Speaker 2: her humanity to machines. I just don't like that. Now

1047
00:49:55,118 --> 00:49:58,118
Speaker 2: there's times, yeah, listen, when it comes to medicine, you know,

1048
00:49:58,238 --> 00:50:01,358
Speaker 2: national defense, things like that. Yeah, I'm in. I'm in

1049
00:50:01,478 --> 00:50:04,198
Speaker 2: where there's gonna be certain things that we miss that

1050
00:50:04,238 --> 00:50:06,758
Speaker 2: we can't miss, or certain things that may expedite the

1051
00:50:06,798 --> 00:50:11,358
Speaker 2: healing process or new inventions or thoughts. Absolutely, I'm all

1052
00:50:11,398 --> 00:50:14,478
Speaker 2: about it. Bring it on, But we've been writing turnpapers

1053
00:50:14,478 --> 00:50:16,398
Speaker 2: with it now that lack emotion, so that after the

1054
00:50:16,438 --> 00:50:17,998
Speaker 2: turn paper has written, we got to sit there and

1055
00:50:19,118 --> 00:50:21,278
Speaker 2: inject emotion into what we have written in order to

1056
00:50:21,278 --> 00:50:24,798
Speaker 2: hand it in. All this stuff is concerning man and

1057
00:50:24,198 --> 00:50:26,278
Speaker 2: I and I read about it, and I know that

1058
00:50:26,318 --> 00:50:31,278
Speaker 2: there's a concern among a lot of academics everywhere, But

1059
00:50:31,318 --> 00:50:33,438
Speaker 2: I'm just talking about our game right now. Be careful.

1060
00:50:33,478 --> 00:50:36,998
Speaker 2: We just can't continually subtract the human element and expect

1061
00:50:36,998 --> 00:50:39,878
Speaker 2: it to be as entertaining and as fun because as

1062
00:50:39,918 --> 00:50:43,278
Speaker 2: that goes the fund goes away too. We're constantly chiseling

1063
00:50:43,318 --> 00:50:45,638
Speaker 2: away at the fun element of our game also, and

1064
00:50:45,678 --> 00:50:46,318
Speaker 2: that bothers me.

1065
00:50:46,438 --> 00:50:47,438
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's well said.

1066
00:50:47,758 --> 00:50:51,438
Speaker 1: And I think that we're talking about faith and technology

1067
00:50:51,478 --> 00:50:54,838
Speaker 1: and sometimes just blind faith. We always assume that if

1068
00:50:54,878 --> 00:50:58,638
Speaker 1: it's new, it's if it's high tech, it's better without

1069
00:50:58,638 --> 00:51:00,518
Speaker 1: stopping to think about the human element.

1070
00:51:00,558 --> 00:51:02,638
Speaker 3: And I think it's it's also related.

1071
00:51:02,638 --> 00:51:05,278
Speaker 1: It's a generational thing, you know that, Joe, Those who

1072
00:51:05,318 --> 00:51:09,118
Speaker 1: grew up with a lot of technology aren't really questioning

1073
00:51:09,158 --> 00:51:10,198
Speaker 1: the human cost of it.

1074
00:51:10,278 --> 00:51:12,118
Speaker 3: Because this is what they know and this is what

1075
00:51:12,158 --> 00:51:13,838
Speaker 3: they trust. It's dangerous.

1076
00:51:14,558 --> 00:51:16,638
Speaker 1: And technology is great, don't get me wrong, but it's

1077
00:51:16,718 --> 00:51:20,598
Speaker 1: dangerous to accept it on blind faith that it's always

1078
00:51:20,678 --> 00:51:23,918
Speaker 1: going to be pushing in a positive direction, because again,

1079
00:51:24,238 --> 00:51:25,038
Speaker 1: there is a cost.

1080
00:51:25,398 --> 00:51:28,358
Speaker 2: I'm with you, man, and that's my concern. I had

1081
00:51:28,358 --> 00:51:30,638
Speaker 2: the T shirt a couple years ago, don't forget the heartbeat,

1082
00:51:30,958 --> 00:51:35,158
Speaker 2: and that was a post. That was my o to

1083
00:51:35,238 --> 00:51:38,198
Speaker 2: the twenty sixteen World Series where you know, we have

1084
00:51:38,278 --> 00:51:41,318
Speaker 2: that little rain de lay, Jason Heyward has the discussion

1085
00:51:41,318 --> 00:51:43,478
Speaker 2: in the clubhouse and all of a sudden we come

1086
00:51:43,518 --> 00:51:46,318
Speaker 2: out like the bunch of wild men and go off

1087
00:51:46,358 --> 00:51:50,878
Speaker 2: and we win that game. All human, that was all

1088
00:51:50,958 --> 00:51:53,918
Speaker 2: heart that was all real. That's how it's supposed to be.

1089
00:51:54,358 --> 00:51:57,158
Speaker 2: And a lot of times with all the latest and technology,

1090
00:51:57,238 --> 00:52:02,278
Speaker 2: then we're always relying on success based on that or not.

1091
00:52:02,518 --> 00:52:08,158
Speaker 2: I mean another words, yes, but the analytics and technology

1092
00:52:08,198 --> 00:52:09,798
Speaker 2: in our game all good stuff. But at the end

1093
00:52:09,798 --> 00:52:11,998
Speaker 2: of the day, it's good players playing good baseball that

1094
00:52:12,038 --> 00:52:16,198
Speaker 2: win baseball games. So when teams get in some bad situations,

1095
00:52:16,198 --> 00:52:18,438
Speaker 2: you could just go throughout the league right now, they'll

1096
00:52:18,478 --> 00:52:20,678
Speaker 2: have great analytical departments. Every one of them. They all do.

1097
00:52:20,718 --> 00:52:22,598
Speaker 2: They have a lot of cross smart guys upstairs. They're

1098
00:52:22,598 --> 00:52:26,718
Speaker 2: really good. They're throwing the right information downstairs. But after all,

1099
00:52:26,958 --> 00:52:29,478
Speaker 2: the teams, the players on the other team are better

1100
00:52:29,758 --> 00:52:31,838
Speaker 2: than your guys by a lot, So I don't care

1101
00:52:31,918 --> 00:52:34,278
Speaker 2: what kind of information you give them. They're just playing

1102
00:52:34,278 --> 00:52:36,398
Speaker 2: a better brand of baseball. Maybe they're more athletic, maybe

1103
00:52:36,398 --> 00:52:39,638
Speaker 2: they're scouting and development techniques were better than yours. But

1104
00:52:39,718 --> 00:52:43,438
Speaker 2: we're just focusing on information as being the end all

1105
00:52:43,878 --> 00:52:46,158
Speaker 2: and the reason why a group of successful or not.

1106
00:52:46,718 --> 00:52:48,838
Speaker 2: It should be there to augment, not to be the

1107
00:52:49,638 --> 00:52:53,398
Speaker 2: end all and the main driver in regards to whether

1108
00:52:53,438 --> 00:52:54,358
Speaker 2: we're successful or not.

1109
00:52:54,878 --> 00:52:55,118
Speaker 3: Joe.

1110
00:52:55,118 --> 00:52:58,358
Speaker 1: It's been a fascinating edition of the Book of Joe podcasts.

1111
00:52:58,398 --> 00:53:00,598
Speaker 1: So if you got something to take us out to

1112
00:53:00,718 --> 00:53:02,358
Speaker 1: end it on, I'd sure love to hear what you

1113
00:53:02,398 --> 00:53:02,918
Speaker 1: got today.

1114
00:53:03,158 --> 00:53:06,238
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, even you know, we talked about when we

1115
00:53:06,278 --> 00:53:08,398
Speaker 2: wrote our book and we're trying to go through different

1116
00:53:08,438 --> 00:53:10,198
Speaker 2: titles and you eventually came up with the Book of Joe.

1117
00:53:10,238 --> 00:53:11,958
Speaker 2: One of the suggestions I made of something we just

1118
00:53:11,998 --> 00:53:15,158
Speaker 2: talked about, don't forget the heart beat. And that's again,

1119
00:53:15,198 --> 00:53:17,838
Speaker 2: that's a huge concern that I have, So let's just

1120
00:53:17,918 --> 00:53:23,438
Speaker 2: go with twenty sixteen post World Series event had the

1121
00:53:23,558 --> 00:53:28,878
Speaker 2: umbrella on the T shirt, little rain coming down nine

1122
00:53:29,398 --> 00:53:32,158
Speaker 2: hyphen eight that was actually an eight hyphen seven that

1123
00:53:32,238 --> 00:53:35,358
Speaker 2: was actual score. So and on the back end blaze

1124
00:53:35,358 --> 00:53:37,998
Speaker 2: and don't forget the heartbeat, because the Cubs won that

1125
00:53:38,078 --> 00:53:42,398
Speaker 2: World Series because of the heartbeat of so many really

1126
00:53:43,118 --> 00:53:45,518
Speaker 2: good athletes that were together as a group. And that's

1127
00:53:45,518 --> 00:53:48,318
Speaker 2: what was That's what Jase reminded them about in that

1128
00:53:48,478 --> 00:53:53,278
Speaker 2: room in Cleveland during that rain delay, was that this

1129
00:53:53,358 --> 00:53:55,198
Speaker 2: is our time. I think that's the line to you,

1130
00:53:55,278 --> 00:53:57,798
Speaker 2: is this is our time. We've deserved this, We've we've

1131
00:53:57,838 --> 00:54:00,558
Speaker 2: worked hard, we've earned this, and it's our time to

1132
00:54:00,638 --> 00:54:03,598
Speaker 2: go out there and take it. So please never forget

1133
00:54:03,598 --> 00:54:04,558
Speaker 2: the heart.

1134
00:54:04,598 --> 00:54:05,118
Speaker 3: I love that.

1135
00:54:05,398 --> 00:54:07,878
Speaker 1: And by the way, I will never forget after that

1136
00:54:07,998 --> 00:54:11,478
Speaker 1: Reindo Lay, as the Cleveland team went back on the field,

1137
00:54:12,358 --> 00:54:15,878
Speaker 1: your buddy at first base the umpire was Joe West.

1138
00:54:16,558 --> 00:54:19,838
Speaker 1: I remember talking to Joe game tiede Game seven World

1139
00:54:19,918 --> 00:54:23,158
Speaker 1: Series coming back after that rein de Lay, and he said,

1140
00:54:23,198 --> 00:54:26,358
Speaker 1: man doesn't get any better than this, And I just

1141
00:54:26,358 --> 00:54:29,038
Speaker 1: thought it was so cool that you know, any of

1142
00:54:29,118 --> 00:54:31,598
Speaker 1: us who are in that little kind of a snow

1143
00:54:31,638 --> 00:54:34,558
Speaker 1: globe of a moment. If you were inside that ballpark

1144
00:54:34,758 --> 00:54:36,918
Speaker 1: and you were waiting on how it would end, it

1145
00:54:36,958 --> 00:54:38,398
Speaker 1: was kind of this pregnant pause.

1146
00:54:38,478 --> 00:54:41,838
Speaker 3: It was kind of just a beautiful moment to in.

1147
00:54:41,718 --> 00:54:46,318
Speaker 1: Your case with the Cubs, to recalibrate, right, Yeah, but

1148
00:54:46,518 --> 00:54:49,198
Speaker 1: to say and sit back, it really doesn't happen.

1149
00:54:49,278 --> 00:54:51,918
Speaker 3: We have the time to sit back and say, my goodness,

1150
00:54:52,038 --> 00:54:54,718
Speaker 3: look where we are here. I mean, how special is this?

1151
00:54:54,798 --> 00:54:56,478
Speaker 1: Don't know how it's going to end, but for this

1152
00:54:56,558 --> 00:55:00,078
Speaker 1: one moment, man, it is just a beautiful thing right on.

1153
00:55:00,238 --> 00:55:01,958
Speaker 2: I mean I went upstairs to look at the weather

1154
00:55:02,038 --> 00:55:04,438
Speaker 2: map on my iPad. I'm sending up there with Jed Hoyor.

1155
00:55:04,478 --> 00:55:08,118
Speaker 2: We're trying to make sure that we remain positive through

1156
00:55:08,158 --> 00:55:10,838
Speaker 2: this whole thing and optimistic because it's hard to do that. Man,

1157
00:55:11,198 --> 00:55:14,598
Speaker 2: Sometimes you gotta fake it. But yeah, all of that.

1158
00:55:14,718 --> 00:55:17,238
Speaker 2: As you're saying that with great line by Joe, He's

1159
00:55:17,278 --> 00:55:21,598
Speaker 2: absolutely right. It was one of the best moments in

1160
00:55:21,718 --> 00:55:24,518
Speaker 2: I guess baseball history, and to have been part of

1161
00:55:24,598 --> 00:55:26,958
Speaker 2: it as you were pretty special. Yeah.

1162
00:55:26,958 --> 00:55:28,318
Speaker 1: And by the way, I have to find one of

1163
00:55:28,318 --> 00:55:30,278
Speaker 1: those T shirts. I love the sound of that. Don't

1164
00:55:30,278 --> 00:55:31,238
Speaker 1: forget the heart beat.

1165
00:55:31,318 --> 00:55:34,198
Speaker 2: Right, I'll find it. I'm sure I have one lane Rod.

1166
00:55:34,438 --> 00:55:36,758
Speaker 2: All right, brother, next time we play golf, next time

1167
00:55:36,798 --> 00:55:39,078
Speaker 2: we should be the first time. I'll get it.

1168
00:55:39,118 --> 00:55:39,958
Speaker 3: Sounds good by me.

1169
00:55:40,318 --> 00:55:48,918
Speaker 2: Thanks, Joe, all right, brother, take care of Buddy. Thanks.

1170
00:55:51,198 --> 00:55:54,398
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1171
00:55:54,638 --> 00:55:59,598
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1172
00:55:59,718 --> 00:56:01,518
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.