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Speaker 1: Welcome to Office Hours with Rider Strong, a special edition

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Speaker 1: of Pod meets World where writer takes over and is

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Speaker 1: never told he's ruining the fun. Yes, it's a time

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Speaker 1: for inquiry, research, analysis, and all in all taking things

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Speaker 1: way too seriously. It's a safe space where it's never

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Speaker 1: just a romp. I'm your host and only host, Rider Strong.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me today on our show. Let's get

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Speaker 1: high falutin about the most absurd episode of Boy Meets World.

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Speaker 1: The Infamous and then there was Sean. As many of

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Speaker 1: you know, I have a deep and abiding love for

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Speaker 1: horror films, and so I saw this episode as a

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Speaker 1: chance to not only overthink twenty two minutes of children's television,

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Speaker 1: but to delve into the culture, history and meaning of

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Speaker 1: my favorite genre. What makes horror such a and during

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Speaker 1: staple of film and television? Why do we even like

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Speaker 1: things that scare us? Is horror a way to deal

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Speaker 1: with trauma or a dark indulgence of our worst impulses?

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Speaker 1: And how did Boy meets World manage to make an

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Speaker 1: episode that some say is hilarious while others say they

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Speaker 1: still have nightmares about it. Well, to get at some

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Speaker 1: of these questions and more, I decided to seek out

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Speaker 1: an expert, a professional, and amazingly I found the perfect person,

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Speaker 1: someone with all the smarts, all the education, who was

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Speaker 1: still willing to come on a podcast and talk about

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Speaker 1: a half hour of ABC's TGIF lineup from nineteen ninety eight. Today,

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Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to welcome guest Christopher Woofter, an academic powerhouse

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Speaker 1: in the world of horror studies. Christopher is a scholar

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Speaker 1: of film, television, literature, and popular culture. A prolific writer

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Speaker 1: and editor's contributions can be found across numerous publications that

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Speaker 1: interrogate the ways horror reflects and refracts societal fears. He

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Speaker 1: earned his PhD in Film and Moving Image from Concord University,

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Speaker 1: and he's edited or co edited several influential works, including

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Speaker 1: American Twilight, The Cinema of Toby Hooper, and Fear and

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Speaker 1: Learning Essays on the pedagogy of horror, which have greatly

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Speaker 1: helped shape academic discussions on horror and likely relevant to

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Speaker 1: today's discussion. He edited a book that took an extensive

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Speaker 1: look at the work of Buffy the Vampire Slayer showrunner

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Speaker 1: Joss Whedon and his many contributions to film and TV

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Speaker 1: titled Joss Whedon Versus the Horror Tradition. Currently, Christopher is

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Speaker 1: a professor of English at Dawson College in Montreal, where

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Speaker 1: he teaches courses in horror cinema and Gothic literature, and

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Speaker 1: he is also well known for his involvement in genre

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Speaker 1: film festivals and conferences, where he brings his critical expertise

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Speaker 1: to engage with both scholarly and fan communities alike. So

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Speaker 1: get ready for a conversation that goes deep into the

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Speaker 1: academic side of horror with someone who has literally spent

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Speaker 1: his entire career thinking, writing, and teaching about what scares us.

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Speaker 1: Please welcome Christopher Woofter. Thank you so much for joining me.

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Speaker 1: I know this is quite a bizarre, a little assignment.

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Speaker 1: Before we get into the episode or anything, I'm curious.

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Speaker 1: Had you ever seen an episode of Boy Meets World before?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: I have now, so this is this is quite an intro.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all new to me, not that I've heard

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Speaker 2: of the show, of course, But.

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Speaker 1: Right, well, so what were you watching back in the nineties.

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Speaker 2: In the nineties, I was watching Star Trek Voyager of

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Speaker 2: all Things, right, yeah, and then I came to probably

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Speaker 2: the nineties show. The two nineties shows that I watched

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Speaker 2: the most of were Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Supernatural,

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Speaker 2: which kind of started late in the nineties. But but

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Speaker 2: Buffy I came too late, so I wasn't watching a

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Speaker 2: lot of TV in the nineties. I thought I was

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Speaker 2: a big film you know, film scholar.

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Speaker 1: Guys right already. So so were you already interested in

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Speaker 1: horror films back then?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Since since I was like eight years old.

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Speaker 1: What was the first horror film you remember seeing?

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Speaker 2: One of the first ones I remember watching with my

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Speaker 2: brother staying over at my aunt's house and we it

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Speaker 2: was Amityville to the Possession, which in retrospect, if you

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Speaker 2: look at that film now, it's quite cheesy. It's still

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Speaker 2: there are moments and that even the like the menu,

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Speaker 2: the DVD menu is terrifying. So it's you know, it

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Speaker 2: has yeah, it has some it has its moments, right,

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Speaker 2: and it worked. It worked on you as a kid, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it definitely.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's so funny to me because, like

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Speaker 1: you know, in this episode, my character Sean is presented

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Speaker 1: as this horror expert, you know, and he's basically just

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Speaker 1: giving the uh, the the rules straight from Scream, you know,

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Speaker 1: all this sort of But I also just love the

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Speaker 1: idea that Sean loves horror films because I also have

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Speaker 1: always loved horror films, and it seems like one of

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Speaker 1: those things that you either fall in love with when

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Speaker 1: you're a kid, usually we're a teenager, and they become

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Speaker 1: extremely important to certain kids. I was one of those kids.

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Speaker 1: You know, for me, it was Stephen King books and

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Speaker 1: then finding the movies as I got older. Why do

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Speaker 1: you think that is? Why do you think that horror

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Speaker 1: speaks to some children essentially more than others?

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Speaker 2: I think in part because a lot of people will say,

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Speaker 2: and there was a movement in horror scholarship to say

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Speaker 2: this too, that there was this kind of Catharsis aspect

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Speaker 2: where you know, you watch horror because it kind of

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Speaker 2: therapizes you, or you know, there's therapeutic or purification rituals,

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Speaker 2: all these things, dating rituals. There was all kinds of

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Speaker 2: attempts to figure out why people are drawn to it.

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Speaker 2: I think for me, part of it was that my

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Speaker 2: mom was a horror fan, so I saw some of

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Speaker 2: that modeled. But I also was an extremely sensitive kid,

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Speaker 2: and there is something in horror that I think appeals

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Speaker 2: to those folks who are kind of extra hyper sensitive

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Speaker 2: to their surroundings and you know, just trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out the world and why you're so like, why you

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Speaker 2: take everything on so intensely. I think horror was a

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Speaker 2: way to kind of not exorcise, but exercise that in myself.

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Speaker 1: Right, you mentioned that there are these movements to try

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Speaker 1: and sort of like determine the cultural roots of or

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Speaker 1: the cultural rationale for horror's appeal. But are you saying

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Speaker 1: that it never really got settled or is that not

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Speaker 1: a popular approach nowadays?

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Speaker 2: It's not really popular anymore, you know, it's it was

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Speaker 2: there's like attempts to legitimize the study of horror by

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Speaker 2: going back to scholarship on tragedy, so even even all

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Speaker 2: the way back to Aristotle, and Aristotle's question was why,

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Speaker 2: you know, why do we like tragedy because it's it's gruesome,

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Speaker 2: it's horrible, and why would we Why is that entertaining?

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Speaker 2: And the Catharsis model was drawn from that because it

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Speaker 2: was this purification almost like a ritual you go to

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Speaker 2: to sort of you know, like you know, draw that

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Speaker 2: out of yourself or something or or yeah, but yeah, but.

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Speaker 1: Now it is. But but nowadays that's not the standard

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Speaker 1: interpretation like what where's where is that landed? I guess

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Speaker 1: is what I'm asking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it moved from that to Okay, so horror

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Speaker 2: studies of horror legitimate because we can talk about Aristotle

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Speaker 2: to horror studies, or legitimate because we can talk about

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Speaker 2: media vial you know, kind of text or because we can.

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Speaker 2: And then Caryl Clover, who wrote Men Women in Chainsaws

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Speaker 2: is a medievalist, you know, like or you know, then

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Speaker 2: it goes to psychoanalysis. So let's let's look at how

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Speaker 2: you know, we've got cultural trauma and we've got personal

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Speaker 2: trauma and horror films to dip into that and and

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of reveal that to ourselves even though

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Speaker 2: we it's that sort of collective unconscious that horror draws on.

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Speaker 2: And sure, all of that is fair game. But I

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Speaker 2: think now where we are is looking at more affective

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Speaker 2: models where people are really talking about fully embodied responses

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Speaker 2: to horror, and you know, audiences that are that are

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Speaker 2: there because they also appreciate horror as a as an aesthetic.

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Speaker 2: You know, horror films are beautiful even when they're dumb,

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Speaker 2: you know. There they have great music. I listened to

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Speaker 2: horror movie soundtracks when I write and read, as long

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Speaker 2: as they don't have too much melody. Uh so, yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it's I think it's that now it's moving towards

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Speaker 2: this kind of can we how do we think through

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Speaker 2: the body, How do we experience this kind of entertainment

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Speaker 2: through a kind of embodied intellect? You know, like that

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Speaker 2: doesn't just limit you know, our our intellect to this

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Speaker 2: sort of distant, you know, critical distancing that something like

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Speaker 2: Cabin in the Woods is all.

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Speaker 1: About, right, Yeah, because Kavin in the Woods definitely plays

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Speaker 1: on the Catharsis model.

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Speaker 2: It's it's it's.

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Speaker 1: Made literal, right, they're like sacrificing children for entertainment or

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Speaker 1: to pure the world, purify the world in some way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's got all kinds of interesting interesting,

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Speaker 2: Like it's more interesting as a kind of a cultural

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Speaker 2: critique than it is as a critique of horror.

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Speaker 1: But for me, well yeah, no, I mean I loved

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Speaker 1: your essay on it, and it was so interesting because

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Speaker 1: I hadn't quite realized how much it seemed more about

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Speaker 1: reality TV, which was incredibly popular at that time, and

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Speaker 1: it's right. I mean the second you said that, I

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Speaker 1: was like, Oh, that's what this movie is actually more

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Speaker 1: about than horror films. It's just using a horror film

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Speaker 1: to basically make a reality TV show out of it.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was really insightful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the only reason I came up with

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Speaker 2: that was my work at the time, and I'm actually

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Speaker 2: working on revising this it's going to come out soon.

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Speaker 2: Is on intersections of documentary and horror, and so I

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Speaker 2: was looking at like, how how do you horror aesthetics

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Speaker 2: and documentary aesthetics? What are they? What do they share?

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Speaker 2: You know? One of one of the things they share

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Speaker 2: is an interest in knowledge, right, just what do we

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Speaker 2: get to know? What do we get to learn? And

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Speaker 2: so Cavin in the Woods it's you know, it's a

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Speaker 2: that's just a stinker of a film in a way,

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Speaker 2: because it's every time it promises you some sort of

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Speaker 2: knowledge that what you learn is strips away your enjoyment

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Speaker 2: of the actual you know. Anyway, that's my take on it.

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Speaker 2: I I wrote about the film because I didn't like

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Speaker 2: it and it made me angry, But I liked it

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Speaker 2: better after I wrote about it.

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Speaker 1: Right, and you, and you're a fan of Whedon in general.

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Speaker 1: I mean you came came to his work through Buffy

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Speaker 1: and you're a big Buffy supporter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I think Buffy's I think it's just

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Speaker 2: u it's a monument, Like it's a it's an absolute masterful.

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Speaker 2: Even when it's weak, it's not weak. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I think it's just such a cultural touchstone series.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And so you know, it's interesting that so Buffy

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Speaker 1: came out right around the time of this episode and

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Speaker 1: we're you know, we're clearly a different universe and dealing

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Speaker 1: with our own, our own, you know, culture in a way.

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Speaker 1: But I'm curious what what was Could you just give

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Speaker 1: a background of what was happening to horror in general

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Speaker 1: in the nineties, Like we're I mean, we're clearly referencing

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Speaker 1: the Kevin Williamson era. What was that era all about?

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Speaker 1: Like what was happening to horror films?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting because that that decade kicks

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Speaker 2: off with Silence of the Lambs, and you know, Jonathan

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Speaker 2: Demi refused to call it a horror film, and it

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Speaker 2: I mean, partly I think that was that was its

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Speaker 2: Oscar promotional. You know, Juggernaut was trying to thriller, right,

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Speaker 2: and that's the thing. It's a it's a thriller. It's

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Speaker 2: a psycho thriller. It's all, you know, again going back

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Speaker 2: to psychoanalysis, to the model for like, let's legitimize this project,

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Speaker 2: and you know that that couldn't be more of a

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Speaker 2: horror film, and you know, the decade kind of kicks

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Speaker 2: off with that. I don't know, it's like almost like

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Speaker 2: horror is there, but same thing with the nineteen forties.

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Speaker 2: Horror is there, but we're going to deny that by

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Speaker 2: calling it other things like film noir or the paranoid

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Speaker 2: Woman's film or you know, these these things that come

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Speaker 2: up in the forties come back in the nineties. So

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Speaker 2: we just get the psycho thriller, the serial killer film.

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Speaker 2: You know, is Henry Portford of a serial Killer a

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Speaker 2: horror film? Yes? Is it a serial killer film? Yes?

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Speaker 2: But you know, yeah, in the nineties on television, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we have The X Files, which isn't shy about being

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Speaker 2: a horror leaning series. And then I think one of

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Speaker 2: the kind of wonderful things about that you know era,

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Speaker 2: that Kevin Williamson era that produces things like Buffy is

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Speaker 2: that there's a kind of interest in looking at how

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Speaker 2: horror works and looking at its parts and doing a

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Speaker 2: kind of anatomy of horror, and you get you know,

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Speaker 2: I actually had to write a review, a film review

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Speaker 2: for a local Montreal newspaper that doesn't exist anymore, on

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Speaker 2: Urban Legend, and I you know, I gave it one

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Speaker 2: star and was just like, this is just so bad,

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Speaker 2: you know, just like like it's so bad you look

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Speaker 2: around behind you to see if anyone's still in the cinema,

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Speaker 2: you know, if anyone was there in the first place.

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Speaker 2: But but it it's, uh, if I look back at

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Speaker 2: those films, I'm much more interested in them now because

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Speaker 2: they're they're actually engaging with the genre in ways that

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Speaker 2: are more than just it's uh interest, you know, the

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Speaker 2: interest in the psyche and in psychology. They're interested in

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Speaker 2: how the genre works.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean they're self conscious in a way, right.

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Speaker 1: I Mean it was like, I think for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people watching Scream might have been the first time

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Speaker 1: they ever sort of recognized tropes as a concept, you know,

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Speaker 1: let alone the specific tropes that they were playing with.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we do a little bit of that

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Speaker 1: in this episode two, what what was the next evolution? Like,

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Speaker 1: once everybody sort of knew the rules that we all

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Speaker 1: learned from Scream and I know what you did last summer,

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Speaker 1: what happened to horror next?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to you know, it's because even in

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Speaker 2: the Cabin in the Woods essay, I talk about trying

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Speaker 2: to resist the sort of of evolutionary, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of model of horror. But because it's always hybridizing, and

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Speaker 2: there's always you know, there's always a little bit of

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Speaker 2: exploitation that many people would say, oh, that's back from

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Speaker 2: the seventies. But there's there's a little of that, there's

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Speaker 2: a little of the psychology, there's a little of you know,

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of things. But I would say that

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Speaker 2: the the next big kind of smash and crash was

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Speaker 2: when David Edelstein coined the term torture porn, right, And

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Speaker 2: that's right around the time of this this episode. And

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Speaker 2: you know, you're getting what now I think some people

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Speaker 2: call the new French extreme. So there was a French

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Speaker 2: kind of version of so called torture porn. All all

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Speaker 2: of that, you know, meant to tag a group of

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Speaker 2: films that were hostile and can't. Why can't I think

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Speaker 2: of others fun.

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Speaker 1: Fever to a lesser extent, but.

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Speaker 2: Saw for sure, And you know that these films were

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Speaker 2: trying to push some envelopes around spectacle. Yeah. Sure, and

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Speaker 2: they were, you know, like the slasher film is a

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Speaker 2: cycle in the eighties and the and these new these

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Speaker 2: sort of so called new extremist films come out, and

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Speaker 2: it's it's a way, you know, horror was always were.

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Speaker 2: Creators are always talking to each other, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons we call these things cycles.

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Speaker 2: You know that certainly there is a movement there, but

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Speaker 2: they come and go, and you know, I don't think

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Speaker 2: that you can divorce something like the violent spectacle films

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Speaker 2: that people call torture porn from films in the seventies

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Speaker 2: and and sixties that were being made in you know,

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Speaker 2: in Europe, and the Mondo film for example, or things

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it was it was. It was interesting

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Speaker 1: for me because you know, I worked on Cavin Fever

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Speaker 1: with Eli Roth, and he was very you know, self

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Speaker 1: conscious about what he was doing. You know, He's like,

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Speaker 1: I want to bring he was so sick of what

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Speaker 1: he called, you know, Pg. Thirteen horror. He was like, no,

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Speaker 1: we got to bring back the hard r because he

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Speaker 1: you know, grew up in the seventies and eighties with

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Speaker 1: those really you know Texas Chainsaw. It was like a

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Speaker 1: touchstone and where it's just you know, the violence is

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Speaker 1: so front and center, and so you know, he was

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Speaker 1: always very self caught, and it was interesting to see

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Speaker 1: that that's exactly what happened. You know, working on Cavin Feever,

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Speaker 1: we were like, oh, we're going to show nudity, We're

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Speaker 1: going to have so much blood, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: so extreme. And then sure enough for the next you know,

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Speaker 1: eight years, watching all these films come out that sort

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Speaker 1: of did the same thing, and then of course it

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Speaker 1: moved on and you know, now it got called torture

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Speaker 1: porn and sort of shoved under the rug in some ways. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting how these things go in so in cycles.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think that there's such a sort of

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Speaker 1: inferiority or insecurity about horror, Like, why why is it

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Speaker 1: that horror has taken so long to be recognized as

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Speaker 1: a legitimate form.

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Speaker 2: Well, it seems it is interesting because you know, the

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Speaker 2: first films that were made are right in line with

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Speaker 2: the first horror films that were made, so like eighteen

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Speaker 2: ninety six, we're looking at you know, Thomas Edison makes

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Speaker 2: a couple of test reels in his studio that he

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Speaker 2: called monkey Shines, which just was meant to be a

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Speaker 2: way of like Shenanigans, right, so that what they're doing

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Speaker 2: is camera tests. But in the monkey Shiness reels, which

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Speaker 2: you can watch on YouTube, it's basically this fuzzed out

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Speaker 2: shadow figure like moving around. But it's absolutely terrifying. It's

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Speaker 2: not it isn't the world's first unintentional horror film in

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Speaker 2: some ways. But so I write about that in my work.

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting, and you know Jackyl and Hyde and

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Speaker 2: Frankenstein get very early pre twentieth century adaptations. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: So so why the you know, why it takes I

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Speaker 2: would say in nineteen in the nineteen late seventies is

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Speaker 2: when there was a Toronto International Film Festival group of

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Speaker 2: people who did a panel on horror and it was

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Speaker 2: Tony Williams and a few other Robin Wood was another one,

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Speaker 2: very famous horror scholar, and they did this sort of well,

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Speaker 2: they did the panel and then they did a book

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Speaker 2: and for this festival of festivals was the publisher and

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Speaker 2: it was one of the first kind of collections and

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Speaker 2: acts of horror scholarship, and they were unapologetic about it.

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Speaker 2: But like right after that you get books like Carol

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Speaker 2: Clover's Men, Women in Chainsaws and Planks of Reason by

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Speaker 2: Christopher Sheridan Barry Grant. Those are kind of early, you know,

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Speaker 2: early attempts early still the seventies, but early for horror studies,

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Speaker 2: attempts to talk about the genre in ways that were

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Speaker 2: more than just I don't know, kind of panic or

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Speaker 2: you know, cultural panics, moral like that. And what's interesting though,

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Speaker 2: is that a lot of like Carol Clover's book begins

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Speaker 2: with this sort of this preface where she says, you know, look,

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Speaker 2: I watched three hundred slasher movies to make to write

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Speaker 2: this book. Don't think I'm insane or something like that,

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Speaker 2: and it's a yeah, it's like this apologetic tone. Right,

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm writing a study about horror. It's okay, mom,

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Speaker 2: I'm fine. You know, So I don't know, like what

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Speaker 2: what made it because there there are so many brilliant films,

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Speaker 2: you know, throughout the from the advent of cinema to

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Speaker 2: the seventies. But yeah, it does take that long for

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Speaker 2: I think Gothic studies is maybe partly why horror doesn't

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Speaker 2: get into the game early. There's an early study of

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Speaker 2: horror called an Illustrated History of the Horror Film like

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Speaker 2: Carlos Clarence, and that's a book that has been fairly

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Speaker 2: long out of print, and that I think that was

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Speaker 2: in the early sixties. But yeah, it's just there's this

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Speaker 2: big gap. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's get into And then there was Sean

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Speaker 1: so As, your first first boy Meets World episode, which

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Speaker 1: is a strange way to go in. But did what

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Speaker 1: did you think of the episode overall? No wrong opinions?

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Speaker 2: Well, so, okay, so I have my like my character

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Speaker 2: list here too because I have to refer to it

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Speaker 2: to know the cat my so As as an episode,

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Speaker 2: and I still haven't. I was going to try to

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Speaker 2: watch the pilot, but I didn't. I didn't watch that either,

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Speaker 2: So I really am only talking about this episode. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was surprised that I found it funny because I

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Speaker 2: was expecting, you know, because like if I if I

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Speaker 2: watch Family Ties or something like that, now, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to find that funny. I just don't really. But

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Speaker 2: like in this case. You know, it was interesting to

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Speaker 2: see William Daniels because I only know him as the

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Speaker 2: voice of Night, writer of The Car and Night Writer,

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Speaker 2: I guess. But yeah, I thought I was. I was

378
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Speaker 2: interested in the episode for a number of reasons that

379
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 2: weren't entirely about its horror leanings, including this sort of

380
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Speaker 2: young adult you know, kind of like raining in your

381
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Speaker 2: emotions kind of angle. That really interesting. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 2: always going to read you know, you were making jokes

383
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Speaker 2: in the in your invitation to do this about like

384
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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about placing this in the pantheon

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Speaker 2: of horror. But and so I'll always you know, if

386
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Speaker 2: you want me to get serious about a cultural object

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Speaker 2: that maybe some people would be like, Oh that doesn't

388
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 2: you know, I'm in so awesome. So yeah, I found

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00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 2: the episode really interesting. I thought I thought the kind

390
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Speaker 2: of locked room aspect of it was interesting. There's a

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Speaker 2: bit of an Agatha Christie you know, well, I mean

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Speaker 2: even the title is a reference to Agatha Christie, right,

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Speaker 2: and then there were none.

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Speaker 1: Oh I didn't know that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an Agatha Christie.

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Speaker 1: Oh but that's so cool.

397
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, at least I think I think it's

398
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: gestures to that at least, and that's kind of one

399
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: of the things about the episode that was interesting is

400
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Speaker 2: that it's it's doing that scream thing, but it's also

401
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 2: gesturing out to these other traditions of horror mystery suspense

402
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Speaker 2: that I thought we were really yeah, really fast.

403
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't quite thought it,

404
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: but it really it almost is like a murder mystery,

405
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: like dinner party gathering. You know, it's like, it's not you,

406
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: and then it's you and you know, and everybody's getting

407
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 1: killed off one by one. Yeah, it's it's a it's

408
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: a it's a lot going on in that episode. So

409
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: it turns out to be this sort of uh, you know,

410
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: my character Sean is the killer, and he's processing the

411
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 1: fact that his you know, his friends have broken up

412
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Speaker 1: and you know how so I know we've talked a

413
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Speaker 1: little bit about but how has like something like that

414
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: been interpreted in films, you know, like, is horror typically

415
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Speaker 1: a way for somebody to process something personal psychological or

416
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Speaker 1: is it a broader cultural anxiety that we're usually analyzing film.

417
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 2: I think I mean certainly both. But the you know,

418
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Speaker 2: the ghost story, for example, is the classic form of

419
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: working out the past, right that the you know, the

420
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: ghost is there too to terrify you into a truth

421
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: or acknowledging a truth that has happened, and you know

422
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: that that we then have to to grapple with in

423
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Speaker 2: the present. And sometimes it just a matter of digging

424
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Speaker 2: up that dead body that tells you there was you know,

425
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Speaker 2: there's a nun in the basement or whatever. But during

426
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Speaker 2: the time this episode was made, you know, there's a

427
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: little bit of a I don't know, there's a little

428
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Speaker 2: bit of a turn inward. You know, certainly the Gothic

429
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: aspect of this episode is that individual, you know, Trauma Sean,

430
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: that that character is working out response to a really

431
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 2: big change in his life. Right. I think the comment

432
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 2: is I've only ever known you as a couple, and

433
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 2: so you've kind of shaken my whole metaphysics, you know,

434
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: of my in the world. And yeah that I think.

435
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: You know, Buffy does this too with especially the first season.

436
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: But high school, the high school is hell kind of model, right,

437
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 2: you know, Monsters of the Week, the monsters are often

438
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 2: you know, I feel like I'm becoming invisible. I feel

439
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 2: like I am, you know, inferior to my brother to

440
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: the point where he becomes a Frankenstein monster. And you know, so,

441
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: let's say it very much that sort of micro cosmic

442
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: horror of your personal life, you know, ballooning out to

443
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: a whole era of development in youth. Yeah.

444
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: I love the you know, just the idea of the

445
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: ordinary being suddenly terrified. You know. I feel like that

446
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: you know, you you, I know, you teach Shirley Jackson.

447
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: I feel like she's the queen of that, right. It's

448
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: like you never even know why you're scared. You're just

449
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 1: terrified of a small town or the way people are

450
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: acting so normal. And in this case, I love the

451
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: fact that the school becomes a murder, you know, that

452
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 1: it becomes terrified, and it's the same set we've used

453
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: every every episode, and you know, but all the sort

454
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: of regular things become horror, you know, just baffling and scary,

455
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: and I think it's part of the reason why some

456
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: people are genuinely cared by this episode.

457
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: You know.

458
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: Can you talk about setting and the importance of setting

459
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: in horror.

460
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: Films, Yeah, for sure, And actually in this episode. I've

461
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: always found high schools terrifying, even when they're not, you know,

462
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: contextualized as horror because long rows of lockers and things

463
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: like that, they're just there. There's nothing there but a

464
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: maze of possibility for violence and terror and torture. And

465
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: but yeah, I think setting and horror. I mean it's

466
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: funny because a lot of well it's a testimonial too,

467
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: how this episode functions suddenly as horror is that you

468
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 2: with horror. You know, the classic line there is that

469
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: production of horror doesn't really take much. You just have

470
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: to turn the lights out. And you know you're and

471
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 2: that I'm undercutting a lot of very beautiful, wonderful you know,

472
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: craft work and horror and aesthetics that people take a

473
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: lot of pains to create. But essentially, you know, you

474
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: can create horror by diminishing are uh uh interaction or

475
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: our access to detail in a setting.

476
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: So you know, I my character lays out all these

477
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: these rules right which we all know from Scream, and

478
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: I feel like they've been reiterated over and over again.

479
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: You know, all the doors are going to be locked,

480
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: Virgins never die. How have the rules changed since since

481
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: you know nineteen ninety eight? Have the have the rules

482
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: of horror films that evolved from this point?

483
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: Uh, that's an interesting question because that like when we

484
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: talk about those kind of rules, they're slasher film rules, right,

485
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: So and has the has the neo slasher or these

486
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: recent slasher films, have they changed anything. Okay, So if

487
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: you if you look at the difference between Terrifier and

488
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: Terrifier Too, the misogyny in Terrifier is turned in Terrifier

489
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: Too into a girl power kind of narrative. I'm all

490
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: for that, but but there's something in some ways, there's

491
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: something so self conscious about it that it feels like

492
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: it's not it's not real. It's just a gesture to

493
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 2: a kind of it's like an idea. Yeah, yeah, like

494
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: we're doing it. We can't do this any you know,

495
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: this time, so we're going to have to you know,

496
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: apologize for our previous and and yes, Terrifier has some

497
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: really bad, you know missage, but but it's also you know,

498
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: it's a visceral film, uh, in ways that the sequel isn't,

499
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 2: And the sequel starts to kind of build this narrative.

500
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: And I think that that is what I'm noticing in

501
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: something like Thanksgiving, where you know, that could have just

502
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: been a string of really great set pieces but instead

503
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: it's so it's so interested in developing the near and

504
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: creating this sort of almost mythical you know, background and

505
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 2: everything that it uses some of the viscerality. That's what

506
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 2: I would say, is like the kind of I don't know,

507
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 2: there's a bit of a dilution of the earlier slasher

508
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: rules in those films. It's almost like after Scream, we're

509
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: not allowed to just be You're not allowed to just

510
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 2: make a slasher film. You have to make a canny

511
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: slasher film or you know, the one that so that

512
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: you know what you're.

513
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: Where characters are smarter or somewhat more self aware. Yeah. Yeah,

514
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: And I feel like, you know, the major shift that

515
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: that started happening with the Scream self consciousness was around gender,

516
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: you know, because you finally had these female characters. You know,

517
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties, it was men making horror

518
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: films primarily, right, and there was always this sort of

519
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, uh sexualization of women, and then of course

520
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: the Final Girl Trope. There were all these tropes sort

521
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: of built around gender, and I feel like the nineties

522
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: it started, you know, to change. Do you think that

523
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, we have somebody like Buffy especially you know,

524
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: a real really empowered How how has gender been reflected it,

525
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, specifically in the nineties and then moving into today.

526
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: I think I think Buffy is an interesting case because

527
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: Joss Whedon said that Buffy was he wanted to take

528
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 2: the Final Girl, move her from this screaming, helpless figure

529
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: to a powerful figure, and and in that sense he's

530
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: he's kind of well, he's wrong, because the Final Girl

531
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: is a powerful character and also readable, you know, kind

532
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: of not as a trans character, but definitely readable in

533
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: different registers of gender. So there's a you know, the

534
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 2: classic Carol Clover talks about this, but their names tend

535
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: to be not they are they're androgynous names, right they

536
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: they aren't necessarily like sexual in the same way that

537
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: their friends are, So there's a bit of a querying

538
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 2: aspect to them. They're a little less readable than the

539
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: other characters. They're a little more reluctant, and they're not

540
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: as they're more observant, right, So there, and that's what

541
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,479
Speaker 2: gets them out of things. So I would say that

542
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: those are actually kind of interestingly, if they're not full

543
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: on role models, they're at least more complicated than that

544
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: sort of Oh, they were, you know, they were just

545
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: running away screaming, versus the Buffy model where she's sort

546
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: of like it's the apocalypse, beep beep me, you know,

547
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: like I'll take care of it. But yeah, so I

548
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: think I think the recent films they're almost if they're

549
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: doing Slasher up front, they almost have they feel like

550
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: they have to make the character so powerful she's a

551
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: superhero almost and right, you know.

552
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: So it's interesting to me that it's in some ways

553
00:32:58,880 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that you're saying are the

554
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: more ideological horror film becomes or the more like sort

555
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: of idea driven sometimes the less successful of a horror

556
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: film it is.

557
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it can be that way. Robin Wood was one

558
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: of the kind of famous people who talks about this,

559
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: like he calls some films progressive and some reactionary, based

560
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: on you know, in some cases, whether or not evil

561
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: is punished or who it's punished by, and whether or

562
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 2: not the narrative remains open to ambiguity or closed in

563
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 2: a sort of safe zone. So you know, the ghost

564
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: story can tend to encourage covative conservative you know, it's

565
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: almost a conservative structure, right, It's sort of if it's

566
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: a satisfying closure, the mystery gets solved. That said, you

567
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: know that well, and then Wood talks about something like

568
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: the exorcistem calls it conservative because the Catholic Church as

569
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 2: an authority, you know, exercises, exorcizes and power and is successful.

570
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: But then it's like, but but you you know, you

571
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 2: need to think about like I think horror is always

572
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: a little like anything else, is a little bit aware

573
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: of being liberal and also unaware of being a little

574
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: conservative in some ways. But in the Exorcist you have

575
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: a case that's really fascinating where besides the fact that

576
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: you're watching you know, extreme embodied pain and torture in

577
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: a child's body, you're also watching that in a priest's conflict,

578
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: you know, so there and it's sort of like, oh,

579
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: so the ending erases all that, you know. It's that's

580
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: where we get into the weird politics of horror, where

581
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: you know, they if they do end and it's closed

582
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: up and and sealed up, then we think of it as,

583
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: you know, be conservative because what we want to see

584
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 2: is that on that conflict ongoing. So yeah, for sure, all.

585
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: Right, So back to back to Boy meets World for

586
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: a second. You know, one of the things, because people

587
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: do find this episode scary, and I think one of

588
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: the reasons is just this question of tone, right, like

589
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,439
Speaker 1: why why is the sitcom suddenly murdering people? And why

590
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 1: is there blood in the walls? So how have you

591
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: how how have you found the relationship between humor and horror,

592
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: because they often work really well together. So I just

593
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts on, you know, how how

594
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: comedy has been used in horror.

595
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: So my my favorite if we're going to the episode,

596
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: my favorite two things are a total balance of comedy

597
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 2: and horror, or one of them is the I have

598
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: to make I have to make notes on this, the

599
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: sort of like that that they you know, the announcement

600
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: is made that like I'm sure that as soon as

601
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: we turn away, something's going to you know, like run

602
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: or we're not going to miss something running behind us

603
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: or in front of us. And that happens twice in

604
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: the episode. It's funny, but it's also a jump scare

605
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: totally and it and also, you know, I think one

606
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: of the reasons people, you know, you can laugh because

607
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 2: it is funny, but you're the viewers of the show

608
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: who probably you know, they're not coming to that show

609
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: to see horror. It destabilizes the setting of the high school, right,

610
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 2: so you're never sure where this is going to appear again,

611
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 2: and especially when it appears right in front of the camera,

612
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: between the characters and your point of view, it's quite shocking.

613
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 2: So that's one element where the humor and horror work

614
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 2: really well together. And the other one is the hilarious

615
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: scream kind of test, you know, sort of like I'm

616
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: the best screamer? No, and then Jennifer love Hewitt comes

617
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: in and she's like, the best screamer, come on you,

618
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 2: like really?

619
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: So I'm curious how you feel. I mean, you obviously

620
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 1: you loved horror at one point, you got into this

621
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: this field, and you've dedicated so much of your life

622
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: to to the to the form. Do you ever feel

623
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: like enough is enough? Like you're sick of it, you

624
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: wish you would just started doing romantic comedies or or

625
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: I guess maybe the bigger the bigger question is do

626
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: you ever feel like you're you're analyzing too much, or

627
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: that you're that you're taking something too seriously.

628
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: I was worried that I would take this episode too seriously,

629
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: but but and you know, when I realized how how

630
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 2: carefully it leans into the tropes. I started to get

631
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: really interested do in my general work. No, I I

632
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: just think that you know that you often get questions

633
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: from people who don't watch horror or read horror, like

634
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: how can you be drawn to this? You know, it's

635
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 2: so I couldn't even watch five minutes of a horror movie.

636
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: And I'm often saying like, well, horror isn't just one thing,

637
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 2: and you know, it's a there's an aesthetic there that's

638
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 2: very broad. You know, you can go from beautiful, quiet,

639
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 2: shadowy gothic to upfront, in your face spectacle horror and

640
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 2: everything in between. And with all of that there, and

641
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: you know, the Shirley Jackson's out there and the Carmen

642
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,439
Speaker 2: Maria Machado's out there. You know, like, I just think

643
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: that it's just everybody is, you know, in this horror discourse,

644
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: whether you're a creator or a scholar. I think you're

645
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: just always finding new things to to inspire you. And

646
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: you know, my work right now is largely in horror television.

647
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 2: I'm writing on the eighties Friday the thirteenth, the series

648
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: and great.

649
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I wanted to ask you what you're working

650
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: on now and what you've got, what you got coming up.

651
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: So that's what you're focused on is the eighties horror TV.

652
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is what was kind of intriguing about this

653
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 2: watching this episode because I'm watching a decade later, you know,

654
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: kind of what's possible. Yeah, we're I'm writing a book

655
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 2: with a scholar, Aaron Giannini, and we're working on this

656
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: eighties during the rag sorry, horror during the Reagan era,

657
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 2: and so it's Freddy's Nightmares Tales from the Dark Side.

658
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 2: I'm wearing my shirt today and uh, you know, Friday

659
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: the thirteenth, the series and Dark Dark Room some others,

660
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: a lot of anthology series that, you know, are what's

661
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: interesting about those shows in terms of this Boy Meets

662
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: World episode is the degree to which they can and

663
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: cannot show violence, right, And you know, I was really

664
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 2: fascinating did by the first death in Why Am I?

665
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: And then there was Sean is a pencil through the

666
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: forehead and then the great you know shot of the

667
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: pencil drawing a line down the wall as he you know,

668
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: slides down the wall. But there's no blood in that

669
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: God the only blood is written is very you know,

670
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 2: almost like a nice font, you know, on the the wayboard.

671
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: But so there, you know, that episode is very careful

672
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: about how it showed. I mean that, but that's extreme violence.

673
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: Like the scissors in the back and the pencil through

674
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 2: the brain. How you die because six books fall on you,

675
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. But but the pencil to the brain

676
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: I get. And then there's but there's no blood and

677
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 2: that's where you know. Even one of the reasons Buffy

678
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: the Vampire Slayer when they killed the vampires they turned

679
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: to dust is because the show couldn't show a lot

680
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: of blood. Wow, So they came up with this dust idea.

681
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: Right, So in some ways you have to be so

682
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 1: creative to just avoid the violence.

683
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 2: Wow.

684
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: All right, well, thank you so much for taking the

685
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: time to watch this episode multiple times. Any any final

686
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: thoughts on Unboy mets World and then there was Sean.

687
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: I do have one. I just I think that there's

688
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: an interesting thing going on here with the through line

689
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 2: of Seawan's you know, kind of disruption in his sort

690
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 2: of narrative of his youth and friendship. There there's a

691
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: moment where I think it's I don't think it's intentionally

692
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 2: meant to unsettle anything. But early in the episode, Sean

693
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 2: says something too. I think it's to Corey. Now Feeney

694
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: knows I'm in the class. There's a line where it's

695
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 2: almost like I wanted to be invisible. Right now you've

696
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: done something that's made me visible, you know, without getting

697
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: you know, super deeply serious about that. I actually think

698
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 2: that's an interesting kind of young adult moment that the

699
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: episode really does carry through to the end, and the

700
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: multiple dream sequences that sort of do they end or

701
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: do they not end? Right? You know, is the is

702
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,479
Speaker 2: the episode canon or is it all just a dream

703
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: and it never stopped? You know, like there's a lot

704
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: going on there. But but that that whole episode is

705
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: the result of like an echo of this, like I

706
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: don't want to be visible, and now I'm the murderer

707
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 2: and the.

708
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: You know, yeah in the group, right, it's about being

709
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: empowered in a way, you know, just growing up, Like

710
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: you know, this is the last season of our show

711
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: where we're in high school. You know, after this we

712
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: go to college and the show changes a lot, you know,

713
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, what you're talking about is is

714
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: has been an evolution. I Mean that's pretty consistent from

715
00:42:58,120 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: the beginning of Boy Meets World, you know, it's it's

716
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: a coming of age store and starts with Corey as

717
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: eleven year old, and you know, we're getting more and

718
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: more empowered as the show goes on. So I think

719
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: that that's that was a real anxiety that, you know,

720
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 1: like my character as the poor kid, bad student who

721
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: could kind of just coast and like never have to

722
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: be visible. That's a really good point.

723
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's easy watching this episode to think that because

724
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: I think it's is it Corey, that's this sort of

725
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: senseral he's boy. Yeah, he's the boy in this episode.

726
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: You are like, it really is your it's it's your

727
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: character's episode, which is very Yeah, it's very interesting that.

728
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: We've talked about a little bit on our podcast because

729
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: I am you know, been kind of realizing how many

730
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: episodes were about my character and realizing like, oh, I

731
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: was a bigger part of the show than I ever

732
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: really thought. And you know, one of the things that

733
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: we've we've realized is that, of course, since Corey is

734
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: the main character, since he's the boy that you're that

735
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: the audience is primarily going to identify with, in some ways,

736
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: he's a less interesting character you know, he's given less

737
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: edges and let you know, he can't be you know,

738
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: from a troubled family because his family is kind of

739
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: has to be the comfort family that we you know,

740
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: we go to. We look, you know, his parents are

741
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: very good parents. His teacher is a good teacher. And

742
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: so in some ways, yeah, us side characters get get

743
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: more to do you know, we have more more dramatic

744
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: arcs I guess in general.

745
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty cool. I will also add

746
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 2: one more thing you that this episode comes. Let's see

747
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: about four years, five years before an episode of Buffy

748
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: the Vampire Slayer Season six, episode seventeen. So you're you're

749
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 2: in the same slot, okay, where Buffy thinks that she's

750
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 2: in an insane asylum and she or she keeps there's

751
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 2: like this flip flop between her as a slayer and

752
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: her as insane because she keeps saying she's a slayer,

753
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 2: but no one believes her. And there's a there's a

754
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 2: sense there that the episode actually doesn't end on any

755
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: clarity which version of reality is is.

756
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: Oh, so she could be an insane asylum this whole

757
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: time and this is her dream, right the episode.

758
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: Wow, almost suggests that it could undo everything that's come

759
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: before it, uh, you know, all some sort of delusion,

760
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: and I feel like this this episode comes before that episode,

761
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 2: and when when it suddenly becomes mister Feeney's fantasy of

762
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: everybody saying like yes, sir, I know doubt uh. And

763
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 2: then there's another appearance of the masked figure. It's it's

764
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 2: it's going there a little.

765
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 1: Bit totally right. Well, it's it's very it's very much

766
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: like the end of Nightmare on Elm Street, right where

767
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it was all just a dream, but

768
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: we're still in the dream. It's still there.

769
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

770
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: I love that stuff. Yeah, so that's a good point.

771
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe. And then there where Sean is the actual

772
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: only canon for Boy Meets World. Everything else has just.

773
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: Been that's that's the way to spin it.

774
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: All right, Thank you so much. I really appreciate this, Chris.

775
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: And let's stay in touch to I want to meet

776
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: you if I'm ever up in Canada and come see

777
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: a horror film with you.

778
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. You know. My email is the one I

779
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 2: use primarily, so reach out anytime.

780
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: All right, Thank you so much, Chris, all right, all right,

781
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: see it so well. Thank you very much for listening.

782
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: This has been Office Hours with Ryder Strong, a very

783
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: special edition of Podmeats World. Thanks to Christopher Woofter for

784
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: watching this episode and playing along, and thank you for

785
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 1: joining us. You can follow us on Instagram at Pod

786
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,919
Speaker 1: meets World Show. You can send us your emails pod

787
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: meets World Show at gmail dot com, and we have merch. Merch, Merch, merch.

788
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: That's my psycho music merch Podmeetsworldshow dot com. We love

789
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 1: you all. Pod dismissed