Speaker 1: The steering wheels on the wrong side. Here all right,
Speaker 1: first time driving on the right side. See how this goes.
Speaker 1: The voice you're hearing, that's Adam Satriano. He's one of
Speaker 1: the reporters on our team in London and he moved
Speaker 1: there from San Francisco just a few months ago to
Speaker 1: cover the European tech scene. And that tape we're listening
Speaker 1: to I recorded that just as I was getting into
Speaker 1: a rental car to drive to the eastern coast of Scotland.
Speaker 1: I was about midway through the ninety minute drive from
Speaker 1: Edinburgh Airport on a narrow two lane road in the
Speaker 1: Scottish countryside, headed to the town as St Andrew's, and
Speaker 1: I was thinking, how great is this job that I
Speaker 1: get to travel here for a story like this? When
Speaker 1: there was a bit of a snap foo, Well, I
Speaker 1: got a flat tire. So I am in the middle
Speaker 1: of the scott this countryside, have a few cows off
Speaker 1: to my right here on the two lane roads some
Speaker 1: and in this rental car there is no spare, so
Speaker 1: I am waiting for a tow truck. Um, we'll be there,
Speaker 1: we'll make it. We're gonna do this. Hi, I'm Brad
Speaker 1: Stone and I'm Adam Sacian, and today we're traveling across
Speaker 1: the Atlantic to explore a new way that startups are
Speaker 1: raising money in the UK, not from venture capital firms,
Speaker 1: not from banks, but from regular people like you and me.
Speaker 1: And I was making this somewhat fraught journey to St
Speaker 1: Andrew's to meet the guy who, through a blog, has
Speaker 1: become one of the most vocal critics of this brave
Speaker 1: new world of investing. These services that are making equity
Speaker 1: crowdfunding possible. Are they matching the brightest minds of the
Speaker 1: UK with much needed capital or are they making it
Speaker 1: too easy for investors without enough experience and with incomplete
Speaker 1: information to dump money into these startups that might never
Speaker 1: have a chance of succeeding in the first place. Stay
Speaker 1: with us as we hear from both sides. So back
Speaker 1: in May I moved to London and soon after I
Speaker 1: arrived I started noticing this peculiar ads in the underground
Speaker 1: and online. Uh. These were ads encouraging ordinary people to
Speaker 1: put their own money into funding startups. So what started
Speaker 1: as a quick, easy way of paying for coffee is
Speaker 1: beginning to reboot the world of payments. Now everybody has
Speaker 1: the option of creating their very own secure economy free
Speaker 1: of banks and fees. At Crowdcube fund raise target is
Speaker 1: five hundred thousand pounds. This will enable us to invest
Speaker 1: in marketing, PR and promotion, to continue to develop a
Speaker 1: strategic partnerships for user acquisition, and to further develop the app.
Speaker 1: Did you know that over half of pet dogs are overweight?
Speaker 1: That's where we rease a re launched our first product,
Speaker 1: just like a fitbit, but for dogs. The model is
Speaker 1: similar to Kickstarter, which many of our American listeners will
Speaker 1: know as the website that lets you donate money to
Speaker 1: an artist or a young company and in return, if
Speaker 1: the project raises the money at needs, you get some
Speaker 1: sort of product at the end. The difference is that
Speaker 1: with these funding sites in the UK, you're not investing
Speaker 1: in a new fangled coffeemaker or a new health monitoring bracelet.
Speaker 1: You're buying a piece of somebody's company. The biggest platform
Speaker 1: is called crowd Cube, but there are others too, one
Speaker 1: called Cedars and others called syndicate Room. And the idea
Speaker 1: is that if you decide to back a startup and
Speaker 1: then it turns into a successful business, and then it
Speaker 1: decides to sell to another company or even files for
Speaker 1: an I p O. You, brad Stone will get a
Speaker 1: piece of the action. I can't wait. Ordinary people investing
Speaker 1: in startups. That's something that only just became legal in
Speaker 1: the US earlier this year. President obamallingly called it the
Speaker 1: Jobs Act. Previously, you could only invest in startups if
Speaker 1: you are really rich. But even with these d regulations,
Speaker 1: there's still a lot of restrictions here in the US
Speaker 1: that just don't exist in the UK, and crowdfunding just
Speaker 1: hasn't taken off at this very early stage. In the UK.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, policy makers have been eager to
Speaker 1: embrace it and it's become a pretty big industry. And
Speaker 1: the back drop here is that after the global financial crisis,
Speaker 1: banks became reluctant to lend to small businesses. So the ideas,
Speaker 1: let's allow small business to go directly to consumers for financing.
Speaker 1: Some companies use crowdfunding along with traditional investors, and it's
Speaker 1: kind of a marketing technique. You get your customers more
Speaker 1: engaged with the company if they own a piece of
Speaker 1: what they're buying. You can see how investors would be
Speaker 1: drawn to this. You could park your money and government
Speaker 1: bonds and basically earn zero interest, or you could take
Speaker 1: this leap of faith and maybe just maybe make a
Speaker 1: crazy return at Darren Westlake because the CEO of Crowdcube
Speaker 1: described it to me as the democratization of investing. The
Speaker 1: Internet has brought prominence to this kind of investing, and
Speaker 1: VC investing has become kind of sexy, I guess, and
Speaker 1: people see that stuff and they want to see if
Speaker 1: they can get that little part of them. And here's
Speaker 1: what one investor told me who I met at a
Speaker 1: crowdfunding event. I'm Adam or Squake, and I've invested in
Speaker 1: over a hundred ext charac funding campaigns, and in particular
Speaker 1: I'm excited by extra crowdfunding because there are a lot
Speaker 1: of problems and things to six in the world, and
Speaker 1: starts to take components are one way to address it.
Speaker 1: So listening to guys like Darren and Adam, it all
Speaker 1: sounds really promising and it is. But like every good experiment,
Speaker 1: you need to keep a close eye on the results,
Speaker 1: and very few people are tracking what's actually happening to
Speaker 1: these startups after they raised money on these websites like crowdcube,
Speaker 1: except for the guy you tracked down on your ill
Speaker 1: fated road trip to Scotland. Yeah, guy named Rob Murray Brown.
Speaker 1: So we sent you there to meet him. I how
Speaker 1: you doing right? Kind of day? Well, kind of sound
Speaker 1: they didn't have the time. What do you what? I
Speaker 1: met Robin a bench at the top of the cliffs
Speaker 1: overlooking the north Sea in St Andrew's. It's a beautiful
Speaker 1: point town with one of the world's most famous golf courses,
Speaker 1: lots of stones, seventeenth century buildings, student cafes, golf shops, pubs.
Speaker 1: And this guy Rob, you were telling me, he looks
Speaker 1: a little bit like the British actor Bill Knight. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, the guy from Love. Actually he also played
Speaker 1: Rufus and Harry Potter. Anyway, it was a windy day
Speaker 1: and he was bundled up in a thick tan coat.
Speaker 1: And even before you got into your minor car crash,
Speaker 1: getting to this interview was a little bit of a challenge, right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When I first reached out, Rob was understandably wary of
Speaker 1: a journalist coming in using all his research that he
Speaker 1: compiled on his blog and not giving him any credit.
Speaker 1: I offered to fly to St Andrew's in Scotland to
Speaker 1: meet with him. At his home, and I understand he
Speaker 1: didn't want you to. He didn't, but after a couple
Speaker 1: of days of back and forth, he agreed to meet
Speaker 1: me for a beer and dinner in town. It's here
Speaker 1: that Rob told me about how he stumbled into this
Speaker 1: world of equity crowdfunding. Well. I got interested back in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven when the equity crowd funding market
Speaker 1: in the UK started and crowd Cube, who are now
Speaker 1: the world's largest equity crowdfunding site, launched in the in
Speaker 1: the middle of two thousand and eleven, and I started
Speaker 1: following them U then I invested in a small company
Speaker 1: which is still going um and I've got a bit
Speaker 1: concerned about the way companies were being promoted on the
Speaker 1: site and the amount of due diligence, and so I
Speaker 1: asked him to look get into a little bit more
Speaker 1: of the specifics. You just look at a company and
Speaker 1: you read what they said about themselves as the founders,
Speaker 1: and you check back through the records on the Internet
Speaker 1: and find that what they were saying about themselves wasn't
Speaker 1: entirely true. It was generally exaggerated quite often actually wasn't
Speaker 1: true at all, And they never told you any of
Speaker 1: the bad stuff, only the good stuff if there wasn't it.
Speaker 1: And Rob, he's been running small businesses basically his whole life.
Speaker 1: He knew how hard it was to borrow money from
Speaker 1: the banks. He wanted crowdfunding to work, so he reached
Speaker 1: out to Crowdcube. I sent them a very nice email,
Speaker 1: I thought, saying, you know, I would. I said I
Speaker 1: would offer them a free of charge service for six
Speaker 1: months to do their due diligence. I would basically do
Speaker 1: the job that I felt they weren't doing. I knew
Speaker 1: they weren't doing it because I and according to Rob,
Speaker 1: Crowdcube basically told him thanks, but no thanks, and then
Speaker 1: ignored them. But Rob kept at it, so he was
Speaker 1: told to go away, and of course that got him
Speaker 1: more interested. So clearly this is a guy who really cares.
Speaker 1: He really does. And I asked him why I have
Speaker 1: spent my life running sms, and to be honest with you,
Speaker 1: I really hate both. And I got really annoyed about it,
Speaker 1: in fact that it annoyed him so much that he
Speaker 1: kept looking into the company's raising money on these sites,
Speaker 1: and his kids got tired of listening to him talk
Speaker 1: about it, so they suggested that he set up a
Speaker 1: blog that was in and this is the blog ominously
Speaker 1: called The Truth about Equity Crowdfunding. That's made him a
Speaker 1: tiny bit famous in the industry. Yeah, maybe a little
Speaker 1: more infamous than famous. When I brought up Rob's website
Speaker 1: to people in the crowdfunding industry, I got a lot
Speaker 1: of tight smiles and grimaces. The website doesn't have a
Speaker 1: big audience, maybe a thousand people per week, but it's
Speaker 1: having an impact. Some London papers have picked up things
Speaker 1: he's written, and it's even led to some new business
Speaker 1: opportunities for Rob. Yeah. He's been getting the intention of
Speaker 1: of startups who are trying to raise money this way,
Speaker 1: and they've been reached out to him for advice. He
Speaker 1: set up a little consulting business on the side. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I could see how we'd get attention for the blog.
Speaker 1: There's so much interesting stuff there and so much interest
Speaker 1: in the industry. But how do you think the investors
Speaker 1: feel about this? Are they worried like Rob about being
Speaker 1: misled by these sites? That's what I asked the investor
Speaker 1: we spoke to earlier. Some of them are going to fail. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, if you treat early stage investment as part
Speaker 1: of a balance and broad approach, then you know you
Speaker 1: do risk yourself and it is at the high end
Speaker 1: of of a risk profile. Um. And I'd certainly not
Speaker 1: advocate putting everything having to startups. You know as an individual,
Speaker 1: these investments you know of them could fail. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: so that's the game. I don't have put anything in.
Speaker 1: I would be to lose Adam as war Kick is
Speaker 1: making the conventional wisdom point there about maintaining a balanced portfolio,
Speaker 1: But the question is will investors heed that advice. Let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break and when we come back, we'll
Speaker 1: go through the juicy details of some of the startups
Speaker 1: have never made it. We'll also tell you exactly how
Speaker 1: many of these startups have actually made money for their investors.
Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Ocky. You heard from me an episode
Speaker 1: three about the d n C hack and I helped
Speaker 1: produce the show. I just wanted to say thank you
Speaker 1: to everyone who's left us a rating and a review
Speaker 1: on iTunes. It goes so far in helping us climb
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Speaker 1: down that says write a review. And I promise it's
Speaker 1: less complicated than it sounds. Now back to the show.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about how startups in the UK are
Speaker 1: using crowdfunding platforms to raise money from ordinary people. It's
Speaker 1: something that's really starting to take off there, but at
Speaker 1: least one person, Rob Murray Brown, who we heard from earlier,
Speaker 1: has been watching the space closely and has some serious
Speaker 1: worries about whether companies are disclosing enough information to us,
Speaker 1: the people they are raising money from. So Adam, let's
Speaker 1: dig into that some more. Let's take a look at
Speaker 1: a few of these startups. Every few days, Rob publishes
Speaker 1: fresh examples of a small company that he thinks is
Speaker 1: headed for trouble. One of the more high profile flame
Speaker 1: outs was a company called Pronto, which was a food
Speaker 1: delivery startup. That's a great name for a food delivery company.
Speaker 1: It actually makes me kind of hungry. It raised more
Speaker 1: than a hundred thousand pounds from the crowd along with
Speaker 1: another seven hundred thousand pounds or so from outside investors.
Speaker 1: The company valued itself at five million pounds on Cedars,
Speaker 1: which is one of crowd cues rivals. Here's what they
Speaker 1: told potential investors in their pitch video. We're growing up
Speaker 1: at the six and week on week over the last
Speaker 1: twenty four weeks, but we've missed a majority of our
Speaker 1: growth every single day because of our delivery area. And
Speaker 1: this raises first and foremost all about growth, about rolling
Speaker 1: out and expanding our fort here. It sounds exciting, right,
Speaker 1: We're lucky to have some alone's top investors to went
Speaker 1: out of business about three months later. I asked rather
Speaker 1: about this. I mean, if you if you read the pitch,
Speaker 1: which I have done it, you know it sounds good.
Speaker 1: They talk a good game. It's all seems to be
Speaker 1: take deboot. I think. I think one of the problems
Speaker 1: with these companies is that they they come for money
Speaker 1: before they've stress test tested their model, and and so
Speaker 1: when when when they get the money and then they
Speaker 1: hit the starting button, it all the wheels start to grind,
Speaker 1: and the and the cogs come off, and they don't
Speaker 1: know what to do. You know, I mean clearly, to
Speaker 1: lose eight hundred thousand pounds and three moms is gone
Speaker 1: an achievement. The frownder Pronto, the guy in the video,
Speaker 1: declined to comment to us for the story. He did
Speaker 1: write an apology letter to investors that said the company
Speaker 1: didn't have the resources to scale and compete against larger rivals.
Speaker 1: Or what other horror stories have you heard? Another company,
Speaker 1: a clothing manufacturer went bus just the past few weeks,
Speaker 1: as did a subscription snack business uh Rob's blog as
Speaker 1: several mentions of companies financial results didn't live up to
Speaker 1: what they were projecting. The report last year by Alt
Speaker 1: five Uh, this is kind of a research firm that's
Speaker 1: been looking into this. They said that one in five
Speaker 1: of the companies that use crowdfunding from two thousand eleven
Speaker 1: to two thousand thirteen have since gone bust. So, Adam,
Speaker 1: none of this is unusual. There's a lot of risk
Speaker 1: and start up investing. It's very typical for startups never
Speaker 1: to make it. Even the big ones funded by tons
Speaker 1: of venture capital can can eventually fold, like fab dot com,
Speaker 1: which we profiled in our very first episode. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: something that Darren Westlake the CEO crowd Cube pointed out,
Speaker 1: the most successful companies won't materialize until later. Failure comes first. Still,
Speaker 1: the bigger question here is are there a couple of
Speaker 1: breakout successes to balance out all the failures? Okay, then,
Speaker 1: so stepping back, what is the tally of the more
Speaker 1: than thousand companies that have used crowdfunding to raise money?
Speaker 1: There's been three exits. One was a craft beer maker
Speaker 1: called Camden Brewery that got sold. Investors there nearly doubled
Speaker 1: their money. And I've had the beer. It's pretty tasty. Okay,
Speaker 1: So not a gangbuster return if you're a venture capitalist,
Speaker 1: but certainly respectable. Yeah. Another company was E Car Club,
Speaker 1: which sold up for about three times what their initial
Speaker 1: investment was, so also respectable. And the third was wool
Speaker 1: in the Gang, a garment company. It's sold for a
Speaker 1: touch more than what it raised. This one was cute.
Speaker 1: They offered gift certificates instead of the small game it
Speaker 1: generated for investors. So beer are sharing and garments and
Speaker 1: and that's it. That's it. Three exits out of more
Speaker 1: than one thousand startups. That's a little depressing. Here is
Speaker 1: rab again, the model that the platforms put out is
Speaker 1: that that you should spread your investment very sensible. So
Speaker 1: what the model they give you is you need to
Speaker 1: invest in ten companies, of which one will give you
Speaker 1: a good return, too might give you a small return,
Speaker 1: and seven will go bust, which as we're looking at
Speaker 1: it now, I'd say it's quite optimistic. The problem is
Speaker 1: that the one giving you the good return, if you
Speaker 1: imagine it, has to give you almost ten times the
Speaker 1: return to make up for the losses. And we're not
Speaker 1: even there's no hint of that happening at all. And
Speaker 1: yet there's more and more money coming into this industry.
Speaker 1: I have some numbers here and when Adams showed them
Speaker 1: to me, they were surprising. Two only and pounds were
Speaker 1: invested in crowdfunding services last year, which was three times
Speaker 1: the previous year, and one study said that about fifteen
Speaker 1: percent of all early stage investments and UK startups came
Speaker 1: from crowdfunding. I called professor of Saul Estron at the
Speaker 1: London School of Economics. He spent some time studying the sector.
Speaker 1: They're bound to be favored in this sort of area's
Speaker 1: very early stage, so that you keep you know about
Speaker 1: that you're investing, know that these whisky so there shouldn't
Speaker 1: be surprises in failures in the fact that their failures,
Speaker 1: I think more serious is that as yet they've been
Speaker 1: very limited numbers of great successes. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: it also relates to the early stage feature. I mean, um, um,
Speaker 1: you know that the this really got going to any scale.
Speaker 1: I suppose in early twenty fifteen it will be very
Speaker 1: you'd be very lucky to get big successes in that
Speaker 1: sort of time scale. So we don't start seeing first
Speaker 1: of all, uh not that many of these figures, and
Speaker 1: second of all, some really visible successes. I think the
Speaker 1: last you know, the shine may go from this new idea,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that has I don't think we're
Speaker 1: exactly at the point where that is going to happen
Speaker 1: now or in the next few months. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: the window is in the next few years. It's a
Speaker 1: tough call because the companies aren't doing anything illegal here,
Speaker 1: but the material that potential investors see online might be
Speaker 1: misleading or at least not representing the full picture. Like
Speaker 1: last week's episode where you and Ellen talked to the
Speaker 1: entrepreneur Antonio Garcia Martinez, Antonio said he lied to his
Speaker 1: investors that he jacked up his growth projections and lowered
Speaker 1: his company's legal costs in order to raise enough money,
Speaker 1: and sure that was definitely unethical. In Antonio now admits it.
Speaker 1: But in that episode, one of his investors, a guy
Speaker 1: named Russell Siegelman, formerly at one of the big Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley venture capital for Kleiner Perkins, told us he doesn't
Speaker 1: even look at projections for an early stage startup. And
Speaker 1: that's coming from Russ, a professional investor, incredibly experienced and
Speaker 1: very savvy. These investors on sites like crowdcube and cedar
Speaker 1: trying to hit the jackpot, though that might be a
Speaker 1: different matter, and that's what's bothering Rob. He thinks these
Speaker 1: platforms need to do more to weed out the bad companies,
Speaker 1: to be more of an honest referee and make sure
Speaker 1: the entrepreneurs, however well intentioned, aren't spinning fairy tales to
Speaker 1: gullible investors. And he blinks it partly on the business model,
Speaker 1: because the companies like crowdcube take a percentage of all
Speaker 1: the money that gets raised on their site. And what
Speaker 1: does crowdcube say about this? As you can imagine, the CEO,
Speaker 1: Darren Westlake definitely disagrees well First of all, people investor
Speaker 1: relatively small amossive money. Yeah, so people are best investing
Speaker 1: betting that life savings on this stuff. The average investments
Speaker 1: to two thou pounds and the other The other mile
Speaker 1: point to that kind of argument is I think it's
Speaker 1: quite patronizing to think that people don't understand the risk
Speaker 1: and don't have the ability to pick and choose what
Speaker 1: they want to invest in. And even vcs and professional
Speaker 1: investors aren't that great to added them, and I'm taught
Speaker 1: to this. It is worth noting that crowd cube makes
Speaker 1: you take this test before you're allowed to be an investor,
Speaker 1: so they make sure you're getting into this with some
Speaker 1: level of knowledge about the risks. Adam, did you take
Speaker 1: the test? I did? Tell us your score. It's a
Speaker 1: series of multiple choice questions like what happens to most startups?
Speaker 1: Do they fail? Or do they become big successes and
Speaker 1: make investors lots of money? Or what happens if a
Speaker 1: company fails? Will you lose your money? Or will crowd
Speaker 1: cube Brian burst you for your losses? So I clicked
Speaker 1: through all the wrong answers just to see what would happen,
Speaker 1: and it said I didn't pass what they call the
Speaker 1: sufficient knowledge test needed to become an investor. But then
Speaker 1: they let me take it again. Did you take it again?
Speaker 1: I did? I passed. So what does crowd cube think
Speaker 1: about your friend Rob up in Scotland. When I first
Speaker 1: talked to Darren, I wasn't planning on centering our story
Speaker 1: around Rob, so I didn't ask him. But when I
Speaker 1: went back to Darren recently, he declined to go back
Speaker 1: on tape to talk to me for the story, but
Speaker 1: he sent over a statement. Whenever you get the statement
Speaker 1: from a company, you know that you're on sensitive territory.
Speaker 1: So do you want to read it out loud? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll read it, he said. Crowd Cube welcomes quote constructive
Speaker 1: commentary on the industry. We're constantly improving our processes to
Speaker 1: ensure investment opportunities are presented fairly and our investors are
Speaker 1: aware of the risk. And so he goes on to
Speaker 1: say that investors know about the risk involved here and
Speaker 1: that the that the problems are are made clear. Reading
Speaker 1: between the lines see suggesting that Rob's criticism is not constructive. Well.
Speaker 1: Crowdcube has been a particular target for Rob Cedars, which
Speaker 1: was started by a former corporate m and a attorney
Speaker 1: has a bit of a tougher due diligence process and
Speaker 1: serves as a representative for the investors with the funded companies.
Speaker 1: And when I reached out to Cedars, it's CEO Jeff
Speaker 1: Lynn said, failure is inevitable. He expects sent to fail.
Speaker 1: He said, anybody who doesn't know that shouldn't be investing.
Speaker 1: And there was one other company you mentioned earlier in
Speaker 1: the program, Syndicate Room. Yeah, that's one requires people to
Speaker 1: put more money in. Is a way to ensure that
Speaker 1: there are more sophisticated investor and only list companies that
Speaker 1: have money from a an angel investor or another accredited backer.
Speaker 1: Can you can you crowdfund investments into the crowdfunding companies themselves?
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's a good idea. I did
Speaker 1: see a company that has that. It is now scoring
Speaker 1: crowdfunding companies. So there are a lot of different variations
Speaker 1: popping up. So I guess what rob is pushing for
Speaker 1: is a combination of more vetting from the websites as
Speaker 1: well as better regulation. The UK government is taking recommendations
Speaker 1: from the public right now. In industry groups are also
Speaker 1: putting in their ideas for tightening the system. In the meantime,
Speaker 1: the platforms are looking to expand into China, India, and
Speaker 1: some even have their sites set on the US. So, Brad,
Speaker 1: let me get your take. Would you invest through one
Speaker 1: of these platforms? You know, I'm gonna come at it
Speaker 1: from a Silicon Valley mentality, and we don't have these
Speaker 1: crowdfunding investment sites here. Any entrepreneur you know, with experience
Speaker 1: or with a great idea is going to go to
Speaker 1: professional investors, and so my sense is that you'd be
Speaker 1: getting the kind of bottom half of the opportunities on
Speaker 1: these services. And given that there is inherently so much
Speaker 1: risk in startup investing to begin with, uh, coupled with
Speaker 1: the fact that we are here at them all on
Speaker 1: journalist salaries, I think I might skip it. How about you?
Speaker 1: I tend to agree. I like the idea that there
Speaker 1: are these alternative forms of finance, and not all companies
Speaker 1: need to end up being a unicorn or a multi
Speaker 1: billion dollar business. There are a lot of others that
Speaker 1: just need a bit of seed capital to get off
Speaker 1: the ground. There are a lot of restaurants or other
Speaker 1: types of companies that are taking advantage of this. But
Speaker 1: I do think that Rob makes Uh is laying out
Speaker 1: a pretty good argument about some of the problems, and
Speaker 1: so I would tread very carefully. Well, that's it for
Speaker 1: this week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening and let
Speaker 1: us know. Would you consider becoming an investor on an
Speaker 1: equity crowdfunding site or if you've done it already, tell
Speaker 1: us what you got out of the experience. I'm on
Speaker 1: Twitter at at Bradstone and I'm at at Satriano, And
Speaker 1: if you have an iPhone, be sure to subscribe to
Speaker 1: the show on iTunes or in any of your favorite
Speaker 1: podcast apps out there. And while you're there, please take
Speaker 1: a moment to rate and review our show. It really
Speaker 1: helps get our show in front of more listeners. This
Speaker 1: episode was produced by aki Ito, p I gut Kari,
Speaker 1: Magnus Hendrickson, and Liz Smith. Aaron Black assisted with recording,
Speaker 1: and Alec McCabe as a head of bloom Bird Podcasts.
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.