WEBVTT - Update: The Hostage in Mauritania

0:00:06.440 --> 0:00:12.559
<v Speaker 1>Hello, Jordan, I'm fine, Thank you and you I'm doing great.

0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.680
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for your patients here. Can you

0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:21.560
<v Speaker 1>hear me? Okay, don't worry, Yes, yes, everything is okay.

0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.880
<v Speaker 1>That man I'm talking to you probably don't recognize his voice,

0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:29.080
<v Speaker 1>but regular decrypted listeners might remember his name. My name

0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:35.040
<v Speaker 1>is the Scriptian for Visionato. I'm Italian citizen. I have

0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.760
<v Speaker 1>forty three I'm a body guard in a two thousand

0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:45.159
<v Speaker 1>and fifty. In August, my company asked me to go

0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:55.440
<v Speaker 1>in Mauritania to change another Italian man for demo about

0:00:55.640 --> 0:01:02.880
<v Speaker 1>some cyber security products and uh stop to my unit.

0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Back in January, we brought you the story of a

0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.200
<v Speaker 1>cyber weapons deal between the government of the West African

0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:15.960
<v Speaker 1>nation Mauritania and an Indian cyber arms dealer. It was

0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.720
<v Speaker 1>a risky deal that ultimately fell apart, and Christian, an

0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.319
<v Speaker 1>Italian bodyguard who was sent to Mauritania only as a

0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:24.280
<v Speaker 1>prop for a meeting that was supposed to take place.

0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:27.440
<v Speaker 1>He ended up getting held hostage in a Mauritanian prison

0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:29.959
<v Speaker 1>for over a year. And if you haven't listened to

0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.720
<v Speaker 1>this original episode or the story sounds only vaguely familiar,

0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.240
<v Speaker 1>go back into our feed wherever you listen to this

0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.360
<v Speaker 1>show and listen to the full episode. It's really one

0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.839
<v Speaker 1>of the most dramatic stories we've covered on this show.

0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:48.840
<v Speaker 1>And today we have a spoiler for you. Christian was

0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:51.720
<v Speaker 1>finally released by Mauritania in May after being held for

0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.680
<v Speaker 1>twenty one months. The Italian government succeeded in securing his

0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.880
<v Speaker 1>release in exchange for expanded trade and diplomatic ties to Maretan.

0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.160
<v Speaker 1>You now, that's something that's far more valuable than the

0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.960
<v Speaker 1>one point five million dollars the Mauritanian government claimed it

0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:11.240
<v Speaker 1>was originally defrauded in this deal. Now Christian is finally

0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:26.799
<v Speaker 1>back with his family and his girlfriend in Italy. Hi,

0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm aki Ito and I'm Jordan Robertson. And this week

0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.440
<v Speaker 1>we're doing something a little bit different, bringing you an

0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.720
<v Speaker 1>update on a man who lost almost two years of

0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.800
<v Speaker 1>his life in an African military prison. Christian was an

0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.120
<v Speaker 1>unwitting casualty in this world we have now we're billions

0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.520
<v Speaker 1>of dollars exchange hands underground to allow criminals and authoritarian

0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.760
<v Speaker 1>governments to spy on us. Now, in the original episode

0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.000
<v Speaker 1>that we aired in January, you heard about what happened

0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:59.519
<v Speaker 1>to Christian from Christian's brother because obviously Christian was still imprisoned.

0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.280
<v Speaker 1>But we kind of depression on a recent afternoon now

0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.960
<v Speaker 1>that he's free, and asked him to recount his experiences

0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:09.880
<v Speaker 1>in Mauritania and also tell us about what he's up

0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:15.639
<v Speaker 1>to today. So Jourdan, should we play the tape? Absolutely understood?

0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:23.440
<v Speaker 1>Tell us what happened next? My company sent me. They

0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:30.760
<v Speaker 1>told me to go to represent some cyber security projects.

0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:36.160
<v Speaker 1>But they told me my job was only two support

0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:42.320
<v Speaker 1>for Indian Commission. About in the day of the meeting

0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:49.760
<v Speaker 1>with the Mauritanian government, when I was in Mauritania, no

0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:58.280
<v Speaker 1>one comes the Manish Kumaro India permission, no one comes.

0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:03.680
<v Speaker 1>And after the two weeks the Mauritanian police come and

0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:09.720
<v Speaker 1>my apartment and they arrested me and nothing and I

0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:16.600
<v Speaker 1>passed the almost two years in anti terror rems barracks.

0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:22.240
<v Speaker 1>What happened when they arrested you? They come three men

0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:33.040
<v Speaker 1>in my apartment. They told me that followed there they

0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.719
<v Speaker 1>put it me in in a car in Ah seen

0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:43.240
<v Speaker 1>his car and they they brought me in in a

0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:50.560
<v Speaker 1>in a barrack. Uh the anti terror reals barracks. What

0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:55.719
<v Speaker 1>was it like in the prison. My family don't knew

0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:02.960
<v Speaker 1>if I was like that any things. And only after

0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:10.960
<v Speaker 1>three months the Mauritanian police gave me the permission to

0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:16.160
<v Speaker 1>call my family. The police treat me well, but the

0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:24.520
<v Speaker 1>first phrase was very dirty, a lot of bugs, insects.

0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:32.600
<v Speaker 1>But only after one year they moved in another bannocks

0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:41.960
<v Speaker 1>and another compound and the life was better then Christian.

0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:46.599
<v Speaker 1>When you were held in Mauritania, did you lose a

0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.400
<v Speaker 1>lot of weight? We saw some pictures of you before

0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.520
<v Speaker 1>and after, and it looks like you got really skinny

0:05:56.400 --> 0:06:06.080
<v Speaker 1>after six months, a lot, almost thirty kinograms for the stress,

0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:13.040
<v Speaker 1>for the condition, for lots of problems, for the food

0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:17.560
<v Speaker 1>because I'm gabetic, and they gave they gave me on

0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:23.320
<v Speaker 1>the right every day. What did you do during those days?

0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:30.120
<v Speaker 1>How would you spend your time? As there was the problem,

0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:37.080
<v Speaker 1>because for one year I had anything to pass the time.

0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:46.560
<v Speaker 1>I sometimes I talking with some people, but that they

0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:55.960
<v Speaker 1>speaking in French or someone speaking English. But I had

0:06:56.000 --> 0:07:00.080
<v Speaker 1>anything to pass the time, No books or not on

0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:08.680
<v Speaker 1>TV anything. Every day I look at the war after

0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:16.400
<v Speaker 1>Eli Eli, after six months, uh, it's mounts. My family

0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:24.520
<v Speaker 1>and me U box with some books and food and

0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:32.960
<v Speaker 1>that was better after. Were you scared? I was very

0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:40.720
<v Speaker 1>afraid because the time pass My lawyer told me a

0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:46.400
<v Speaker 1>lot of time, it's your governments don't move. Yeah, you

0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.640
<v Speaker 1>reached to stay here a lot of time. Were you

0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.560
<v Speaker 1>afraid that the Mauritanians would keep you for the rest

0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:58.080
<v Speaker 1>of your life and and never let you free? Sometimes? Yeah,

0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:03.840
<v Speaker 1>because sometimes I thought they took me for a long

0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:09.200
<v Speaker 1>long time. And when you are an innocent is very

0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:15.720
<v Speaker 1>bad because for the first day to the last day

0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:20.239
<v Speaker 1>me I was a hostage and not not a criminal,

0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:26.760
<v Speaker 1>and they knew that the Mauritania and the Italian government.

0:08:27.920 --> 0:08:33.880
<v Speaker 1>Are you mad at manishar No, no, no, But he

0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:40.080
<v Speaker 1>was the one who got you involved in the first place.

0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:47.520
<v Speaker 1>But the problem was that Marish Kumara didn't send me

0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:54.320
<v Speaker 1>in Mauritania. Was the capital that send me in Mauritania.

0:08:55.200 --> 0:09:02.520
<v Speaker 1>Now I hope the uh they moved to to keep

0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:09.400
<v Speaker 1>this this bassom these people. So you got released. You

0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:15.680
<v Speaker 1>were freed about a month ago. How's life been? I'm

0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.199
<v Speaker 1>actually got on entire end of my mind after two

0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:25.000
<v Speaker 1>years closed in a room with my sex, only with

0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.360
<v Speaker 1>my sas what did you do that first day when

0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.640
<v Speaker 1>you were freed, he met my family in a room,

0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:41.200
<v Speaker 1>my my girlfriend. We passed the time together and they

0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:46.079
<v Speaker 1>after I returned in my home. What did it feel

0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.760
<v Speaker 1>like to be a freeman after all you've done through

0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:57.920
<v Speaker 1>my show? Was a very big emotion. Because I didn't

0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:05.000
<v Speaker 1>text the Italian gay show. They came and told me

0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:09.680
<v Speaker 1>you are free as who was the the best day

0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:14.080
<v Speaker 1>of my life? Imagine at any point did you give up?

0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.040
<v Speaker 1>How did you just did you? Did you just see

0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:19.920
<v Speaker 1>all that you would never never leave. I have trust

0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:28.240
<v Speaker 1>in the Italian government, but only after a lot of

0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:35.920
<v Speaker 1>time and I I said, uh my myself, one day,

0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:40.640
<v Speaker 1>you're n free because you are innocent. People do what

0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:44.439
<v Speaker 1>I want? What I want to see all these people

0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:48.640
<v Speaker 1>that sent me in Yeah? Sure, sure, do you want

0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.559
<v Speaker 1>to see them go to prison? You want to do

0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.520
<v Speaker 1>you want to see them in prison? I want they

0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:58.040
<v Speaker 1>pay in front of the justice if they committed a

0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:08.000
<v Speaker 1>crime or not against me. Were decide about that. I

0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.520
<v Speaker 1>imagine you're not going to a vacation and more. Okay,

0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:16.800
<v Speaker 1>so I don't think so, I don't think so. Yeah,

0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:28.560
<v Speaker 1>good people, but they have problem with the frazerscount. We

0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.240
<v Speaker 1>well Christian, We're so glad you're out. Thanks Christian, talk

0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:41.640
<v Speaker 1>to you later, Thank you, thank you. But you know, Jordan,

0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.360
<v Speaker 1>what I found really striking about this conversation was how

0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Christian said he wasn't mad at all at Many Kumar,

0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:52.760
<v Speaker 1>who was that Indian cyber arms dealer who got him

0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:54.720
<v Speaker 1>in this mess in the first place. I mean, I

0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.680
<v Speaker 1>thought that was remarkable, right, I mean, when we first

0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.679
<v Speaker 1>started reporting the story, the story is originally about Minih Khamar,

0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.960
<v Speaker 1>this Indian cyber weapons dealer who got in way over

0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.440
<v Speaker 1>his head and this deal in Mauritania. You would think

0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.319
<v Speaker 1>that Christian, the person who was hurt most in this deal,

0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:14.640
<v Speaker 1>would be furious at Minich, but he reserves his anger

0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 1>for the guy who actually sent him to Mauritania, a

0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.199
<v Speaker 1>guy named David Castro, who was a subcontractor to UH

0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:26.040
<v Speaker 1>to MINICHH. Kumar's cyber weapons company. And it was really

0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:30.280
<v Speaker 1>David Castro who who assigned Christian this job in Mauritania.

0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.560
<v Speaker 1>And you know, one of the things that that's really

0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.440
<v Speaker 1>striking in talking with Christian, because I've talked to his

0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:37.920
<v Speaker 1>family over the course of the past two years in

0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.679
<v Speaker 1>reporting our story, and then obviously now after his his freedom.

0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.920
<v Speaker 1>And the one thing that's really striking is they have

0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.559
<v Speaker 1>no idea what this whole cyber stuff is all about.

0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.960
<v Speaker 1>They didn't even know who Minich Kumar was until he

0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.160
<v Speaker 1>was arrested, and they learned a lot about who Monish

0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.520
<v Speaker 1>Kumar was through our story. So this whole world was

0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.440
<v Speaker 1>completely unknown to them. And to be victimized in this

0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.120
<v Speaker 1>way for for two years. Christians still trying to put

0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.520
<v Speaker 1>the pieces together in his own mind. But also Christian

0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.920
<v Speaker 1>seemed really tired. I mean, which I guess isn't surprising

0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.200
<v Speaker 1>for someone who has held for so long. Yeah, I

0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.720
<v Speaker 1>think a lot of this was obviously physical exhaustion, but

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.520
<v Speaker 1>also mental exhaustion. In talking with him. We spoke with

0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.719
<v Speaker 1>him several weeks after he was freed, so he was

0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.640
<v Speaker 1>just getting used to life in uh, back in Italy.

0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.000
<v Speaker 1>So you know this trial that Christian kept referring to

0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.480
<v Speaker 1>that he wants David Castro to be met with justice.

0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.120
<v Speaker 1>Is Castro going to be tried in Italy? Now we

0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 1>don't know. You know, I had talked with David Castro,

0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.160
<v Speaker 1>I had exchanged some emails. I think we may have

0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 1>spoken once or twice during the course of the reporting,

0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 1>but David cut off communications uh a little bit closer

0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.160
<v Speaker 1>to publication and has not responded to to request sense.

0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:48.840
<v Speaker 1>I think there are a couple of reasons for that,

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.400
<v Speaker 1>but but one pretty clearly is that he is exposed

0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:56.440
<v Speaker 1>potentially legally because because of what of what happened here.

0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.600
<v Speaker 1>This was a huge deal for the Italian government. Anytime

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.800
<v Speaker 1>a citizen is kidnapped or held hostage abroad, the Italian government,

0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.960
<v Speaker 1>you really moved mountains here. They they had several diplomatic

0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.439
<v Speaker 1>trips to Mauritania to get Christian freed, a huge expense

0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.040
<v Speaker 1>the resolution of this, getting Christian freed in exchange apparently

0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:19.280
<v Speaker 1>for expanded relations with Italy. This was a really big

0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.400
<v Speaker 1>deal that got the attention of the highest levels of

0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Italian government. So there was a big cost here. And

0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.840
<v Speaker 1>if Davide castro knew or had reason to know that

0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.119
<v Speaker 1>this was going to happen to Christian, then he's absolutely

0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:34.240
<v Speaker 1>legally exposed in in Italy. But whether he whether he's

0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.480
<v Speaker 1>actually going to be charged arrested, who knows. But clearly

0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:41.240
<v Speaker 1>Christian Christian wants that to happen right right, and you

0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.880
<v Speaker 1>know by the way that the guy in Minish Kumar,

0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:48.800
<v Speaker 1>the Indian cyber arms dealer who was trying to orchestrate

0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:53.560
<v Speaker 1>this deal with Mauritania. What's he up to now? So Manisha,

0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.680
<v Speaker 1>Manisha is one of the most interesting characters in this

0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.680
<v Speaker 1>whole thing. I went to New Delhi and spent a

0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.440
<v Speaker 1>few day is with Maniche while we were reporting the story.

0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:04.880
<v Speaker 1>So we've kept up and I actually had had a

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.800
<v Speaker 1>good enough time and in India with him. He's a

0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:09.920
<v Speaker 1>young guy, he's a he's a he's a nice guy.

0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:14.760
<v Speaker 1>It seems who did a really bad thing here. You

0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.440
<v Speaker 1>know this this deal fell apart and and Christian was

0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.360
<v Speaker 1>was imprisoned for for two years because of it. Maniche, though,

0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.800
<v Speaker 1>walked away with likely a million dollars out of this deal.

0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:27.480
<v Speaker 1>And we've communicated over email since and he's still he's

0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.760
<v Speaker 1>still wheeling dealer, and he said he's still got some

0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:31.880
<v Speaker 1>big deals on the line. He's working with the government

0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.400
<v Speaker 1>of Egypt. He says he's happy that this Mauritania deal

0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.720
<v Speaker 1>is behind him. Clearly he's not going to be able

0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:39.800
<v Speaker 1>to go back there. And he didn't he didn't help

0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.520
<v Speaker 1>resolve it. He didn't. Well, that's the thing. So he

0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.600
<v Speaker 1>said he was trying to work with the mare Atanian

0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.440
<v Speaker 1>government to find an alternative to the thing that they

0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.880
<v Speaker 1>wanted that he couldn't ultimately deliver. But yeah, the the

0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.400
<v Speaker 1>the entity that resolved this was the Italian government, and

0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.600
<v Speaker 1>Maniche was able to walk away with a seven figure payout.

0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.720
<v Speaker 1>Uh he he said, last time I spoke with him,

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.840
<v Speaker 1>he made be moving to Cyprus or one of those

0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 1>one of the countries in that region. And he's again

0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.040
<v Speaker 1>he got paid. He's got a young family, and he

0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.680
<v Speaker 1>says he's he's continuing to pursue this line of work.

0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.920
<v Speaker 1>So Meniche I did get the sense talking about meniche

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:16.880
<v Speaker 1>so he does carry the weight of this around. I mean,

0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:19.000
<v Speaker 1>this was also a guy who got in way over

0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.040
<v Speaker 1>his head and really didn't understand the stakes in my view,

0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.080
<v Speaker 1>until it was too late, and until until the die

0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.840
<v Speaker 1>were cast. Amazing. Well, thank you for that update, Jordan, Oh,

0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.440
<v Speaker 1>thank you. It's it's it's a very very good outcome

0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:39.280
<v Speaker 1>for Christian and everybody. And that's it for this week's

0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.840
<v Speaker 1>episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. We always want to

0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.040
<v Speaker 1>hear what you think of the show. Record a voice

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.440
<v Speaker 1>message and send it to us at Decrypted at Bloomberg

0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:52.720
<v Speaker 1>dot net. Also, I'm on Twitter at Jordan's are one thousand,

0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.000
<v Speaker 1>and I'm at Akio seven. If you haven't already, please

0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.440
<v Speaker 1>subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts and

0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.720
<v Speaker 1>take him it to leave us a rating and a review.

0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.320
<v Speaker 1>This really does so much to get our show in

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.960
<v Speaker 1>front of more people. This episode was produced by Pea Gadkari,

0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.919
<v Speaker 1>Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. Thanks to Nico Grant and

0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.720
<v Speaker 1>Isabel Gottlub for their help on today's show. Alec McCabe

0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.280
<v Speaker 1>is head of Bloomberg Podcast. We'll see you next week.