Speaker 1: Hello, Jordan, I'm fine, Thank you and you I'm doing great.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your patients here. Can you
Speaker 1: hear me? Okay, don't worry, Yes, yes, everything is okay.
Speaker 1: That man I'm talking to you probably don't recognize his voice,
Speaker 1: but regular decrypted listeners might remember his name. My name
Speaker 1: is the Scriptian for Visionato. I'm Italian citizen. I have
Speaker 1: forty three I'm a body guard in a two thousand
Speaker 1: and fifty. In August, my company asked me to go
Speaker 1: in Mauritania to change another Italian man for demo about
Speaker 1: some cyber security products and uh stop to my unit.
Speaker 1: Back in January, we brought you the story of a
Speaker 1: cyber weapons deal between the government of the West African
Speaker 1: nation Mauritania and an Indian cyber arms dealer. It was
Speaker 1: a risky deal that ultimately fell apart, and Christian, an
Speaker 1: Italian bodyguard who was sent to Mauritania only as a
Speaker 1: prop for a meeting that was supposed to take place.
Speaker 1: He ended up getting held hostage in a Mauritanian prison
Speaker 1: for over a year. And if you haven't listened to
Speaker 1: this original episode or the story sounds only vaguely familiar,
Speaker 1: go back into our feed wherever you listen to this
Speaker 1: show and listen to the full episode. It's really one
Speaker 1: of the most dramatic stories we've covered on this show.
Speaker 1: And today we have a spoiler for you. Christian was
Speaker 1: finally released by Mauritania in May after being held for
Speaker 1: twenty one months. The Italian government succeeded in securing his
Speaker 1: release in exchange for expanded trade and diplomatic ties to Maretan.
Speaker 1: You now, that's something that's far more valuable than the
Speaker 1: one point five million dollars the Mauritanian government claimed it
Speaker 1: was originally defrauded in this deal. Now Christian is finally
Speaker 1: back with his family and his girlfriend in Italy. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm aki Ito and I'm Jordan Robertson. And this week
Speaker 1: we're doing something a little bit different, bringing you an
Speaker 1: update on a man who lost almost two years of
Speaker 1: his life in an African military prison. Christian was an
Speaker 1: unwitting casualty in this world we have now we're billions
Speaker 1: of dollars exchange hands underground to allow criminals and authoritarian
Speaker 1: governments to spy on us. Now, in the original episode
Speaker 1: that we aired in January, you heard about what happened
Speaker 1: to Christian from Christian's brother because obviously Christian was still imprisoned.
Speaker 1: But we kind of depression on a recent afternoon now
Speaker 1: that he's free, and asked him to recount his experiences
Speaker 1: in Mauritania and also tell us about what he's up
Speaker 1: to today. So Jourdan, should we play the tape? Absolutely understood?
Speaker 1: Tell us what happened next? My company sent me. They
Speaker 1: told me to go to represent some cyber security projects.
Speaker 1: But they told me my job was only two support
Speaker 1: for Indian Commission. About in the day of the meeting
Speaker 1: with the Mauritanian government, when I was in Mauritania, no
Speaker 1: one comes the Manish Kumaro India permission, no one comes.
Speaker 1: And after the two weeks the Mauritanian police come and
Speaker 1: my apartment and they arrested me and nothing and I
Speaker 1: passed the almost two years in anti terror rems barracks.
Speaker 1: What happened when they arrested you? They come three men
Speaker 1: in my apartment. They told me that followed there they
Speaker 1: put it me in in a car in Ah seen
Speaker 1: his car and they they brought me in in a
Speaker 1: in a barrack. Uh the anti terror reals barracks. What
Speaker 1: was it like in the prison. My family don't knew
Speaker 1: if I was like that any things. And only after
Speaker 1: three months the Mauritanian police gave me the permission to
Speaker 1: call my family. The police treat me well, but the
Speaker 1: first phrase was very dirty, a lot of bugs, insects.
Speaker 1: But only after one year they moved in another bannocks
Speaker 1: and another compound and the life was better then Christian.
Speaker 1: When you were held in Mauritania, did you lose a
Speaker 1: lot of weight? We saw some pictures of you before
Speaker 1: and after, and it looks like you got really skinny
Speaker 1: after six months, a lot, almost thirty kinograms for the stress,
Speaker 1: for the condition, for lots of problems, for the food
Speaker 1: because I'm gabetic, and they gave they gave me on
Speaker 1: the right every day. What did you do during those days?
Speaker 1: How would you spend your time? As there was the problem,
Speaker 1: because for one year I had anything to pass the time.
Speaker 1: I sometimes I talking with some people, but that they
Speaker 1: speaking in French or someone speaking English. But I had
Speaker 1: anything to pass the time, No books or not on
Speaker 1: TV anything. Every day I look at the war after
Speaker 1: Eli Eli, after six months, uh, it's mounts. My family
Speaker 1: and me U box with some books and food and
Speaker 1: that was better after. Were you scared? I was very
Speaker 1: afraid because the time pass My lawyer told me a
Speaker 1: lot of time, it's your governments don't move. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: reached to stay here a lot of time. Were you
Speaker 1: afraid that the Mauritanians would keep you for the rest
Speaker 1: of your life and and never let you free? Sometimes? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because sometimes I thought they took me for a long
Speaker 1: long time. And when you are an innocent is very
Speaker 1: bad because for the first day to the last day
Speaker 1: me I was a hostage and not not a criminal,
Speaker 1: and they knew that the Mauritania and the Italian government.
Speaker 1: Are you mad at manishar No, no, no, But he
Speaker 1: was the one who got you involved in the first place.
Speaker 1: But the problem was that Marish Kumara didn't send me
Speaker 1: in Mauritania. Was the capital that send me in Mauritania.
Speaker 1: Now I hope the uh they moved to to keep
Speaker 1: this this bassom these people. So you got released. You
Speaker 1: were freed about a month ago. How's life been? I'm
Speaker 1: actually got on entire end of my mind after two
Speaker 1: years closed in a room with my sex, only with
Speaker 1: my sas what did you do that first day when
Speaker 1: you were freed, he met my family in a room,
Speaker 1: my my girlfriend. We passed the time together and they
Speaker 1: after I returned in my home. What did it feel
Speaker 1: like to be a freeman after all you've done through
Speaker 1: my show? Was a very big emotion. Because I didn't
Speaker 1: text the Italian gay show. They came and told me
Speaker 1: you are free as who was the the best day
Speaker 1: of my life? Imagine at any point did you give up?
Speaker 1: How did you just did you? Did you just see
Speaker 1: all that you would never never leave. I have trust
Speaker 1: in the Italian government, but only after a lot of
Speaker 1: time and I I said, uh my myself, one day,
Speaker 1: you're n free because you are innocent. People do what
Speaker 1: I want? What I want to see all these people
Speaker 1: that sent me in Yeah? Sure, sure, do you want
Speaker 1: to see them go to prison? You want to do
Speaker 1: you want to see them in prison? I want they
Speaker 1: pay in front of the justice if they committed a
Speaker 1: crime or not against me. Were decide about that. I
Speaker 1: imagine you're not going to a vacation and more. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I don't think so, I don't think so. Yeah,
Speaker 1: good people, but they have problem with the frazerscount. We
Speaker 1: well Christian, We're so glad you're out. Thanks Christian, talk
Speaker 1: to you later, Thank you, thank you. But you know, Jordan,
Speaker 1: what I found really striking about this conversation was how
Speaker 1: Christian said he wasn't mad at all at Many Kumar,
Speaker 1: who was that Indian cyber arms dealer who got him
Speaker 1: in this mess in the first place. I mean, I
Speaker 1: thought that was remarkable, right, I mean, when we first
Speaker 1: started reporting the story, the story is originally about Minih Khamar,
Speaker 1: this Indian cyber weapons dealer who got in way over
Speaker 1: his head and this deal in Mauritania. You would think
Speaker 1: that Christian, the person who was hurt most in this deal,
Speaker 1: would be furious at Minich, but he reserves his anger
Speaker 1: for the guy who actually sent him to Mauritania, a
Speaker 1: guy named David Castro, who was a subcontractor to UH
Speaker 1: to MINICHH. Kumar's cyber weapons company. And it was really
Speaker 1: David Castro who who assigned Christian this job in Mauritania.
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things that that's really
Speaker 1: striking in talking with Christian, because I've talked to his
Speaker 1: family over the course of the past two years in
Speaker 1: reporting our story, and then obviously now after his his freedom.
Speaker 1: And the one thing that's really striking is they have
Speaker 1: no idea what this whole cyber stuff is all about.
Speaker 1: They didn't even know who Minich Kumar was until he
Speaker 1: was arrested, and they learned a lot about who Monish
Speaker 1: Kumar was through our story. So this whole world was
Speaker 1: completely unknown to them. And to be victimized in this
Speaker 1: way for for two years. Christians still trying to put
Speaker 1: the pieces together in his own mind. But also Christian
Speaker 1: seemed really tired. I mean, which I guess isn't surprising
Speaker 1: for someone who has held for so long. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of this was obviously physical exhaustion, but
Speaker 1: also mental exhaustion. In talking with him. We spoke with
Speaker 1: him several weeks after he was freed, so he was
Speaker 1: just getting used to life in uh, back in Italy.
Speaker 1: So you know this trial that Christian kept referring to
Speaker 1: that he wants David Castro to be met with justice.
Speaker 1: Is Castro going to be tried in Italy? Now we
Speaker 1: don't know. You know, I had talked with David Castro,
Speaker 1: I had exchanged some emails. I think we may have
Speaker 1: spoken once or twice during the course of the reporting,
Speaker 1: but David cut off communications uh a little bit closer
Speaker 1: to publication and has not responded to to request sense.
Speaker 1: I think there are a couple of reasons for that,
Speaker 1: but but one pretty clearly is that he is exposed
Speaker 1: potentially legally because because of what of what happened here.
Speaker 1: This was a huge deal for the Italian government. Anytime
Speaker 1: a citizen is kidnapped or held hostage abroad, the Italian government,
Speaker 1: you really moved mountains here. They they had several diplomatic
Speaker 1: trips to Mauritania to get Christian freed, a huge expense
Speaker 1: the resolution of this, getting Christian freed in exchange apparently
Speaker 1: for expanded relations with Italy. This was a really big
Speaker 1: deal that got the attention of the highest levels of
Speaker 1: Italian government. So there was a big cost here. And
Speaker 1: if Davide castro knew or had reason to know that
Speaker 1: this was going to happen to Christian, then he's absolutely
Speaker 1: legally exposed in in Italy. But whether he whether he's
Speaker 1: actually going to be charged arrested, who knows. But clearly
Speaker 1: Christian Christian wants that to happen right right, and you
Speaker 1: know by the way that the guy in Minish Kumar,
Speaker 1: the Indian cyber arms dealer who was trying to orchestrate
Speaker 1: this deal with Mauritania. What's he up to now? So Manisha,
Speaker 1: Manisha is one of the most interesting characters in this
Speaker 1: whole thing. I went to New Delhi and spent a
Speaker 1: few day is with Maniche while we were reporting the story.
Speaker 1: So we've kept up and I actually had had a
Speaker 1: good enough time and in India with him. He's a
Speaker 1: young guy, he's a he's a he's a nice guy.
Speaker 1: It seems who did a really bad thing here. You
Speaker 1: know this this deal fell apart and and Christian was
Speaker 1: was imprisoned for for two years because of it. Maniche, though,
Speaker 1: walked away with likely a million dollars out of this deal.
Speaker 1: And we've communicated over email since and he's still he's
Speaker 1: still wheeling dealer, and he said he's still got some
Speaker 1: big deals on the line. He's working with the government
Speaker 1: of Egypt. He says he's happy that this Mauritania deal
Speaker 1: is behind him. Clearly he's not going to be able
Speaker 1: to go back there. And he didn't he didn't help
Speaker 1: resolve it. He didn't. Well, that's the thing. So he
Speaker 1: said he was trying to work with the mare Atanian
Speaker 1: government to find an alternative to the thing that they
Speaker 1: wanted that he couldn't ultimately deliver. But yeah, the the
Speaker 1: the entity that resolved this was the Italian government, and
Speaker 1: Maniche was able to walk away with a seven figure payout.
Speaker 1: Uh he he said, last time I spoke with him,
Speaker 1: he made be moving to Cyprus or one of those
Speaker 1: one of the countries in that region. And he's again
Speaker 1: he got paid. He's got a young family, and he
Speaker 1: says he's he's continuing to pursue this line of work.
Speaker 1: So Meniche I did get the sense talking about meniche
Speaker 1: so he does carry the weight of this around. I mean,
Speaker 1: this was also a guy who got in way over
Speaker 1: his head and really didn't understand the stakes in my view,
Speaker 1: until it was too late, and until until the die
Speaker 1: were cast. Amazing. Well, thank you for that update, Jordan, Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you. It's it's it's a very very good outcome
Speaker 1: for Christian and everybody. And that's it for this week's
Speaker 1: episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. We always want to
Speaker 1: hear what you think of the show. Record a voice
Speaker 1: message and send it to us at Decrypted at Bloomberg
Speaker 1: dot net. Also, I'm on Twitter at Jordan's are one thousand,
Speaker 1: and I'm at Akio seven. If you haven't already, please
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Speaker 1: This really does so much to get our show in
Speaker 1: front of more people. This episode was produced by Pea Gadkari,
Speaker 1: Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson. Thanks to Nico Grant and
Speaker 1: Isabel Gottlub for their help on today's show. Alec McCabe
Speaker 1: is head of Bloomberg Podcast. We'll see you next week.