WEBVTT - Part 2: A Million Little Losses

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin, I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change

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<v Speaker 1>of plans, a show about who we are and who

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<v Speaker 1>we become in the face of a big change. This

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<v Speaker 1>is my second conversation with writer Kelsey Snow. If you

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<v Speaker 1>haven't heard the first one yet, it's in our show feed,

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<v Speaker 1>and I suggest you start there. During my first conversation

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<v Speaker 1>with Kelsey, we spoke about her years of caring for

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<v Speaker 1>her husband, Chris, who was diagnosed with ALS in twenty nineteen.

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<v Speaker 1>ALS is a progressive neurodegenerative disease. It can leave people

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<v Speaker 1>unable to move, talk, eat, and breathe on their own,

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<v Speaker 1>and it currently has no cure. Just a few days

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<v Speaker 1>after our conversation in September of twenty twenty three, Chris

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<v Speaker 1>sustained severe brain damage and was declared brain dead as

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<v Speaker 1>a result of complications from ALS. Kelsey and her two

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<v Speaker 1>children were at Chris's bedside before he was taken off

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<v Speaker 1>life support. Eight months later. Kelsey reached out to say

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<v Speaker 1>she wanted to share what life has been like since

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<v Speaker 1>then as she handles a new phase of mourning what

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<v Speaker 1>she calls quiet grief. We started our conversation with Kelsey

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<v Speaker 1>reflecting on Chris's final days.

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<v Speaker 2>Chris had had sort of just a low grade little

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<v Speaker 2>cold for a while. It was nothing to make him worried,

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<v Speaker 2>to make me worried, And yeah, he was napping. He

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<v Speaker 2>fell asleep sitting up. I checked on him a few times,

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<v Speaker 2>and I had gotten a text that the grocery delivery

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<v Speaker 2>was here, and so I came upstairs and as I

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<v Speaker 2>was caring a box of groceries from the front door

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<v Speaker 2>to the island, I looked over at him and his

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<v Speaker 2>lips were blue. So that started, you know, the whirlwind

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<v Speaker 2>of of what you do in an emergency, right nine

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<v Speaker 2>one one CPR, ambulance, fire trucks, first responders. He did

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<v Speaker 2>not have a pulse when they got here, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was talking to a firefighter who was sort of just

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<v Speaker 2>sitting by me, and I asked if I could touch Chris.

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<v Speaker 2>He said yes, of course, and I went over and

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<v Speaker 2>I held his arms sort of at his elbow. And

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<v Speaker 2>after like ten seconds, they've been working on him for

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<v Speaker 2>some minutes and no pulse, and I put my hand

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<v Speaker 2>sort of on the kirk of his elbow and I

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<v Speaker 2>could feel his pulse come back, and I said, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>he has a pulse, And so then they were rushed

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<v Speaker 2>once they got the pulse established to go to the

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<v Speaker 2>emergency room in the hospital's three minutes from our house,

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<v Speaker 2>and when we got there, his pulse was in and

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<v Speaker 2>out again. They sent me to like a waiting room

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<v Speaker 2>while they worked on him. At one point the doctor

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<v Speaker 2>who was leading the charge or whatever he came in

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<v Speaker 2>and asked me, told me that he Chris did not

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<v Speaker 2>have a pulse again and I should I should come

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<v Speaker 2>see him. And I walked into like a scene from

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<v Speaker 2>Er Gray's Anatomy, like doctors everywhere, and I'm over to

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<v Speaker 2>him and I held his hand again and I was

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<v Speaker 2>talking to him. They rushed him to get a CT

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<v Speaker 2>and it was pretty immediately after that that the doctors

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<v Speaker 2>told me He's not going to come back from this.

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<v Speaker 2>So I made all those phone calls I arranged for

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<v Speaker 2>whoever had my kids to bring them that I had

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<v Speaker 2>to tell them that dad wasn't going to wake up.

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<v Speaker 2>And it wasn't long after that that we we realized

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<v Speaker 2>he could be an organ downer, which we did not

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<v Speaker 2>know that he could do that, and that gave a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of comfort. That was as good of a death

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<v Speaker 2>as I think Chris could have had. The reality is

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<v Speaker 2>like he was never going to give up, no matter

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<v Speaker 2>how hard it got, because he would never have been

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<v Speaker 2>able to choose to leave us. And so in my mind,

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<v Speaker 2>taking a nap in your house that you loved, there

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<v Speaker 2>are worse things. Yeah, it felt for me like he

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<v Speaker 2>gave us the chance to really have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>really beautiful moments with him in the hospital. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>my kids got to see their dad and he had colors, cheeks,

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<v Speaker 2>and his hands were warm, and we got to spend

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of time with him like that and do

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<v Speaker 2>a goodbye in that way versus you know, them not

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<v Speaker 2>ever seeing their dad in the way that they remembered him. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>In the immediate aftermath of Chris's death, there were so

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<v Speaker 1>many logistical things for you to take care of, right,

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<v Speaker 1>planning a funeral, planning a memorial service. Can you paint

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<v Speaker 1>me a picture of what that memorial service was like.

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<v Speaker 2>So we decided to have it at this large Catholic

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<v Speaker 2>church that he really enjoyed. There were four eulogies. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>four eulogies. I wanted someone from each part of his

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<v Speaker 2>life to speak to that part of his life. He

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<v Speaker 2>had asked that only thing I knew about his funerals

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<v Speaker 2>that he wanted me to give a eulogy, which I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, thanks, there's a reason why, like spouses don't

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<v Speaker 2>usually eulogize. But his sister gave a beautiful eulogy about

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<v Speaker 2>their childhood and who Chris was and growing up together.

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<v Speaker 2>And then one of his best friends from university gave

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<v Speaker 2>a eulogy about their time working with the student newspaper

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<v Speaker 2>together and the boss that Chris had. He eulogized Chris,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I did. In the days that followed his service,

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<v Speaker 2>I found myself almost obsessively asking people like I think

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<v Speaker 2>I even asked you in a text, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Was it good?

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<v Speaker 2>Was do you think he would have been proud of it? Did?

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<v Speaker 2>Was it enough? And I was like why do we

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<v Speaker 2>keep asking people this? And I realized this because like

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<v Speaker 2>the one person that I wanted to ask was him,

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<v Speaker 2>and I couldn't. Yeah. Something I said in the eulogy

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<v Speaker 2>was about how I have never believed in a person

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<v Speaker 2>more than I believe in Chris. Like this is probably

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<v Speaker 2>why his death was so shocking to me, because I

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<v Speaker 2>believed in him so completely that when he said I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not going anywhere for a very long time, I believed him,

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<v Speaker 2>and over the course of his illness, our relationship shifted

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<v Speaker 2>in the sense that he came to me a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more for reassurance, and I sort of became his barometer,

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<v Speaker 2>whereas i'd always made him the barometer. And what I

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<v Speaker 2>realized and said in my eulogy is just that I

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<v Speaker 2>realized he'd spent the last four and a half years

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<v Speaker 2>like making mean that he believed in just as much

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<v Speaker 2>as I believed in him. Yes, and now in this

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<v Speaker 2>world that I walk without him, I just take him

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<v Speaker 2>with me everywhere, and I hear what he would say

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<v Speaker 2>about all the things I'm doing, and I know how

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<v Speaker 2>completely he believed in me, and that bollives me a

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<v Speaker 2>lot on days when I feel unsure.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's such a physicality around grief, and I wonder

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<v Speaker 3>if you can talk a bit about the physical sensations

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<v Speaker 3>and how they can just hit you out of nowhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think we love in such a visceral way

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<v Speaker 2>that it makes sense that we would grieve in that

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<v Speaker 2>same way. Think about those feelings you have in love, right,

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<v Speaker 2>like the butterflies and that floating feeling and that high,

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<v Speaker 2>that adrenaline, right, and then just put the total opposite

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<v Speaker 2>spin on it in death. For me, it's very much

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<v Speaker 2>in my chest. In the days after Chris died, it

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<v Speaker 2>was so sharp and so hard that I found myself

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<v Speaker 2>actually like applying counter pressure to it. And I've wrote

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<v Speaker 2>about a lot like I take my sadness with me

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<v Speaker 2>and it's my companion and my grief, my sadness that's

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<v Speaker 2>always there. It's something that I carry to the grocery

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<v Speaker 2>store and to hockey and everywhere in between. Like it's

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<v Speaker 2>a physical weight, but it's not a bad weight. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like when I would wear my kids when they were babies.

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<v Speaker 2>It's heavy. After a while, it might feel heavy, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's love.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be back in a moment with a slight change

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<v Speaker 1>of plans. Chris passed away in September. Can you tell

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<v Speaker 1>me about how the holidays unfolded for you as a family.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I expected that I would have a hard time

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<v Speaker 2>with Christmas, right, like all the decorations and the all

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<v Speaker 2>of that. For the most part, that was better than

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<v Speaker 2>I thought it was. There were a couple of real

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<v Speaker 2>stumbling blocks for me, like his stocking and whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not we hang that up, Like how do we do

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<v Speaker 2>these things?

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<v Speaker 1>And how did you just I mean for those listening

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<v Speaker 1>who are going through similar challenges like, yeah, how do

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<v Speaker 1>you decide in those moments like what is the framework

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<v Speaker 1>or even thinking about this?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I do think that there is a doing it right,

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<v Speaker 2>and the doing it right is just like completely swaddling

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<v Speaker 2>yourself in grace. And so and you see those stockings,

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<v Speaker 2>whether you hang his stocking up or not, who knows.

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<v Speaker 2>Who knows if you're going to make the right decision,

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<v Speaker 2>because there isn't a right decision. All of it is

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<v Speaker 2>just grace in that moment you make the decision and

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<v Speaker 2>if later you think, well, you give yourself grace. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's the only way to get through grief

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<v Speaker 2>in a way that doesn't completely destroy you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I don't know. I don't We did the Christmas.

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<v Speaker 2>My mom has always made us. I have two sisters

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<v Speaker 2>made us ornaments using pictures that of when we were kids, babies, toddlers, whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>and then a're so special and my kids love to

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<v Speaker 2>look at them when they take them out every year,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's like you get to see this picture and

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<v Speaker 2>then you put it away and then you remember it

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<v Speaker 2>again the next year. So it makes it kind of

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<v Speaker 2>special and so I decided I would make them for

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<v Speaker 2>I'd make them each twenty five ornaments of pictures of

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<v Speaker 2>them with Chris. Every morning they opened a new ornament,

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<v Speaker 2>and there are pictures from all different parts of his life,

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<v Speaker 2>when he could smile, when he couldn't smile, all those things.

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<v Speaker 2>And so we joked that it was our like Christ,

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<v Speaker 2>because it was like all.

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<v Speaker 1>Dad fitting that it's a dad joke.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know dad jokes for moms. I'm here for

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<v Speaker 2>that novel. I have to do it and my responsibility.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, of course you've talked about how by early

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<v Speaker 1>January many of the logistics and other tasks related to

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<v Speaker 1>Chris's death had been resolved, and so suddenly your to

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<v Speaker 1>do list is much more empty than it was before.

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<v Speaker 1>So what was that time period like for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? What I realized is that I had never grieved

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<v Speaker 2>without a to do list, and so I was really

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<v Speaker 2>I had become very good at grief on the fly,

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<v Speaker 2>if that makes sense, like grieving in motion. Like I

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<v Speaker 2>had to care for the kids, I had to care

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<v Speaker 2>for Chris, and the care for Chris was very twenty

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<v Speaker 2>four to seven, and so I would give myself these

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<v Speaker 2>spaces to be sad or to be angry or to

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<v Speaker 2>be burnt out or whatever. And I was good at

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of grief. But I had never had to

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<v Speaker 2>just sit in my grief. And so I realized I

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<v Speaker 2>knew how to do a busy grief, but I did

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<v Speaker 2>not know how to do quiet grief. And that is

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<v Speaker 2>what really January and February looked like for me was

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<v Speaker 2>getting up in the morning and getting the kids to school.

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<v Speaker 2>And I mean, I still I'm a solo parent, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I have a lot of tasks, but during those

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<v Speaker 2>school hours, I could decide, you know, I have the

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<v Speaker 2>real privilege of not having to go back to work

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<v Speaker 2>right now, I have the privilege to grief, and like,

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<v Speaker 2>I want to move forward while still giving my self

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<v Speaker 2>permission to be still. It's a weird sort of conundrum.

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm trying.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious to know if there are surprising things you

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<v Speaker 1>found about what works best for you, or ways that

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<v Speaker 1>you found that are better to grieve just for you specifically,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, because it's a process of self exploration.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I found that one thing that was really really

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<v Speaker 2>good for me was getting up early and having that quiet,

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<v Speaker 2>dark I would turn like one light on in the house,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'd make my coffee, and my French press is

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<v Speaker 2>sitting there right by my you know alexa, and I

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<v Speaker 2>would scroll through the photos on the Alexa of Chris

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<v Speaker 2>that we had played at his memorial service and look

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<v Speaker 2>at just these different parts of him and his life.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I'd sit on do a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>journaling and read whenever it was that I was reading,

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<v Speaker 2>And that was a really good thing for me. I

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<v Speaker 2>stopped drinking in January. That was a distraction that I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't think was helping me at that point. And even

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<v Speaker 2>though I drink, but not often and not much, whereas

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<v Speaker 2>before I was sort of like a beer while I

0:14:26.556 --> 0:14:29.356
<v Speaker 2>make dinner kind of a person. I find that my

0:14:29.396 --> 0:14:32.476
<v Speaker 2>sleep is better, my clarity is better. I just like

0:14:32.556 --> 0:14:37.796
<v Speaker 2>the idea that whatever I'm feeling, it's not a feeling

0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:43.396
<v Speaker 2>produced by any anything but my own brain. So that

0:14:43.476 --> 0:14:47.476
<v Speaker 2>was really good for me. I like physical reminders. I

0:14:47.516 --> 0:14:50.556
<v Speaker 2>hardly ever wore my wedding drinks before Chris died, and

0:14:51.076 --> 0:14:54.716
<v Speaker 2>I have hardly taken them off since he died. I

0:14:54.756 --> 0:15:00.716
<v Speaker 2>feel very married, and I think without him by my side,

0:15:00.756 --> 0:15:02.436
<v Speaker 2>it's the only way that I can let people know

0:15:02.556 --> 0:15:06.076
<v Speaker 2>that I still feel very married. I got a tattoo

0:15:06.956 --> 0:15:07.836
<v Speaker 2>which I had never.

0:15:07.916 --> 0:15:09.236
<v Speaker 1>Noticed that on your arm.

0:15:09.356 --> 0:15:14.156
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful, so it's thank you. It's four

0:15:14.156 --> 0:15:18.716
<v Speaker 2>corn flowers. The cornflower is the symbol for als, and

0:15:18.756 --> 0:15:21.956
<v Speaker 2>so four for each of us, and I wanted it

0:15:21.956 --> 0:15:23.716
<v Speaker 2>in a place that i'd see it every day.

0:15:25.316 --> 0:15:31.036
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious to know whether since losing Chris, you've changed

0:15:31.076 --> 0:15:32.796
<v Speaker 1>in any ways that have surprised you.

0:15:34.316 --> 0:15:38.276
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I am somebody who doesn't like love, confrontation, or

0:15:38.316 --> 0:15:41.036
<v Speaker 2>just wants everybody to like her. I have really given

0:15:41.036 --> 0:15:44.196
<v Speaker 2>myself permission to no longer be that way.

0:15:45.876 --> 0:15:48.396
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's huge.

0:15:48.636 --> 0:15:51.956
<v Speaker 2>I have unread text messages and un listened to voice

0:15:51.956 --> 0:15:55.316
<v Speaker 2>messages from the days and weeks after Chris died, still

0:15:55.356 --> 0:15:57.236
<v Speaker 2>on my phone. I don't know if I'll ever listen

0:15:57.276 --> 0:16:00.596
<v Speaker 2>to them, and I have given myself permission to be like,

0:16:00.636 --> 0:16:03.396
<v Speaker 2>that's okay. I saw one of Chris's, one of our

0:16:03.396 --> 0:16:05.276
<v Speaker 2>good friends, and when we were in San Diego, and

0:16:05.316 --> 0:16:07.876
<v Speaker 2>I asked him. I was like, were you at this service?

0:16:07.916 --> 0:16:09.716
<v Speaker 2>And he was like, oh, yeah, I saw you. I

0:16:09.756 --> 0:16:12.116
<v Speaker 2>hugged you. I was, and I was like, I'm so sorry.

0:16:12.116 --> 0:16:14.676
<v Speaker 2>I totally forgot, and normally in my brain I'd be like,

0:16:14.836 --> 0:16:16.316
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, I can't believe I did that, and

0:16:16.356 --> 0:16:18.916
<v Speaker 2>I was just like, whatever.

0:16:18.636 --> 0:16:20.876
<v Speaker 1>I forgot, yeah, yeah.

0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:23.756
<v Speaker 2>So more so for me it's been I think it's

0:16:23.756 --> 0:16:27.596
<v Speaker 2>that feeling of belief that Chris had in me and

0:16:27.836 --> 0:16:35.636
<v Speaker 2>believing that myself, like having a real solid footing in

0:16:35.676 --> 0:16:39.316
<v Speaker 2>who I am, and that this is the time in

0:16:39.356 --> 0:16:43.036
<v Speaker 2>my life when I tell people that's not good for me,

0:16:44.036 --> 0:16:46.276
<v Speaker 2>or I don't tell them anything at all if it

0:16:46.316 --> 0:16:49.956
<v Speaker 2>doesn't feel right, and not feeling like I need to

0:16:49.996 --> 0:16:55.796
<v Speaker 2>apologize for whatever decision I made.

0:16:56.116 --> 0:17:01.156
<v Speaker 1>Go Kelsey. I love this new energy from you. It's

0:17:01.196 --> 0:17:07.356
<v Speaker 1>just as your friend. I'm like ron On girl. You

0:17:07.356 --> 0:17:09.516
<v Speaker 1>know one thing you had shared when we last spoke

0:17:09.556 --> 0:17:13.796
<v Speaker 1>for the podcast. You talked about feeling like a grief misfit,

0:17:14.036 --> 0:17:16.036
<v Speaker 1>and I'm wondering, can you tell us what you meant

0:17:16.036 --> 0:17:19.836
<v Speaker 1>by that and how that's evolved.

0:17:20.836 --> 0:17:23.916
<v Speaker 2>I was grieving in this slow motion and I was

0:17:23.996 --> 0:17:29.836
<v Speaker 2>preparing for this grief, but I couldn't fully know what

0:17:29.876 --> 0:17:33.196
<v Speaker 2>it was going to be like. And I wasn't on

0:17:33.236 --> 0:17:36.116
<v Speaker 2>either side. I wasn't on the side of somebody who's

0:17:36.156 --> 0:17:43.116
<v Speaker 2>blissfully unaware that your life is so fragile, and I wasn't.

0:17:43.156 --> 0:17:45.356
<v Speaker 2>On the other side of like, I have lost the

0:17:45.356 --> 0:17:49.636
<v Speaker 2>biggest thing, and I think what that can look like.

0:17:49.756 --> 0:17:51.796
<v Speaker 2>That in between part is like it can look like

0:17:51.836 --> 0:17:56.116
<v Speaker 2>a lot of silver linings. You can sort of negate

0:17:56.196 --> 0:17:58.956
<v Speaker 2>your grief because well, I have Chris. I have Chris.

0:17:59.436 --> 0:18:02.236
<v Speaker 2>Even though I've lost all these very vital parts of

0:18:02.276 --> 0:18:05.756
<v Speaker 2>what I fell in love with, I still have Chris

0:18:05.916 --> 0:18:09.516
<v Speaker 2>kind of a thing. And so I think being on

0:18:09.556 --> 0:18:14.596
<v Speaker 2>the other side of this, there's an immense amount of guilt. Like,

0:18:14.716 --> 0:18:17.076
<v Speaker 2>first of all, I was Chris's caretaker. My job was

0:18:17.116 --> 0:18:20.876
<v Speaker 2>to keep him alive. I failed. That's the first element

0:18:20.876 --> 0:18:21.356
<v Speaker 2>of grief.

0:18:22.156 --> 0:18:23.516
<v Speaker 1>It's painful to even hear that.

0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:27.196
<v Speaker 2>There's a logic brain and there's an emotion brain, right,

0:18:27.596 --> 0:18:31.996
<v Speaker 2>and my logic brain knows that, but my emotion brain

0:18:32.396 --> 0:18:35.396
<v Speaker 2>wins most of the time. The other part of the

0:18:35.436 --> 0:18:38.596
<v Speaker 2>guilt is that, like there were many times like be

0:18:38.676 --> 0:18:43.596
<v Speaker 2>a caregiver, the way that I was a caregiver is very,

0:18:43.796 --> 0:18:49.796
<v Speaker 2>very painful. I could not be Chris's wife and he

0:18:49.796 --> 0:18:55.876
<v Speaker 2>couldn't be my husband in those times, and that really

0:18:55.996 --> 0:18:59.956
<v Speaker 2>really is unfair. And there were many times when I thought,

0:18:59.996 --> 0:19:01.756
<v Speaker 2>I just need a break. I want a break. I

0:19:01.796 --> 0:19:05.036
<v Speaker 2>want to be able to fall asleep on the couch

0:19:05.076 --> 0:19:07.396
<v Speaker 2>reading a book and not have to get up because

0:19:07.476 --> 0:19:10.436
<v Speaker 2>Chris needs is forty five. I've been at bedtime routine

0:19:10.476 --> 0:19:13.796
<v Speaker 2>like I just want a break. And in the days

0:19:13.836 --> 0:19:18.916
<v Speaker 2>after Chris died, your brain says, well, you wanted a break,

0:19:19.436 --> 0:19:24.196
<v Speaker 2>and now you got it, and you're horrible, Like that's

0:19:24.196 --> 0:19:26.756
<v Speaker 2>what your brain is telling you right like you asked

0:19:26.756 --> 0:19:36.276
<v Speaker 2>for this. The truth of the matter is that when

0:19:36.356 --> 0:19:43.636
<v Speaker 2>Chris died, the nuts and bolts of my life got

0:19:43.636 --> 0:19:49.316
<v Speaker 2>incredibly more easy. The emotional stuff got a lot harder.

0:19:49.716 --> 0:19:54.196
<v Speaker 2>But the caretaking it's like constant and chaotic and everywhere,

0:19:54.236 --> 0:19:57.796
<v Speaker 2>and your brain can't it's just boom boom, boom boom everywhere.

0:19:57.836 --> 0:20:00.636
<v Speaker 2>You've got something that somebody needs right now, all the time,

0:20:00.676 --> 0:20:03.396
<v Speaker 2>and you're that person's arms, and you're that person's voice,

0:20:03.676 --> 0:20:07.556
<v Speaker 2>and you're that person's just everything. And the caregiving is

0:20:07.596 --> 0:20:10.036
<v Speaker 2>like these million things that are just like ping pong

0:20:10.076 --> 0:20:13.436
<v Speaker 2>balls bouncing around everywhere, and then all of a sudden,

0:20:13.476 --> 0:20:17.156
<v Speaker 2>all the ping pong balls stop moving. They just fall

0:20:17.436 --> 0:20:19.996
<v Speaker 2>to the ground. And what you're left with is this

0:20:20.116 --> 0:20:26.276
<v Speaker 2>massive void, but what you do with your day is

0:20:26.316 --> 0:20:32.556
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden up to you again. And I

0:20:32.596 --> 0:20:37.756
<v Speaker 2>said in therapy yesterday something that feels awful to say,

0:20:38.316 --> 0:20:42.116
<v Speaker 2>but like when Chris died, I got my life back

0:20:45.036 --> 0:20:52.596
<v Speaker 2>and the guilt associated with that feeling and that'll take

0:20:52.636 --> 0:21:01.076
<v Speaker 2>your breath away. So it's hard. It's hard. I know

0:21:01.196 --> 0:21:03.796
<v Speaker 2>that he wouldn't want me to feel that way. I'd

0:21:03.876 --> 0:21:09.836
<v Speaker 2>know that, but caring for your person and then losing

0:21:09.876 --> 0:21:14.876
<v Speaker 2>them is very complicated. Yeah, so it's a different saying

0:21:14.916 --> 0:21:16.836
<v Speaker 2>this side of grief for sure.

0:21:17.316 --> 0:21:17.756
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:21:17.956 --> 0:21:22.396
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It wasn't long after Chris died. I think that

0:21:22.436 --> 0:21:27.196
<v Speaker 2>I came across a poem by Donna Ashworth and there's

0:21:27.196 --> 0:21:31.276
<v Speaker 2>many beautiful lines, but the the end of it is,

0:21:31.476 --> 0:21:34.196
<v Speaker 2>grief came to you, my friend, because love came first.

0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:43.396
<v Speaker 2>Love came first, and it came for me earlier than

0:21:43.436 --> 0:21:48.276
<v Speaker 2>it does for a lot of people. But I am

0:21:48.316 --> 0:21:53.476
<v Speaker 2>always bolstered by the fact that I'm not the only

0:21:53.516 --> 0:21:59.436
<v Speaker 2>one here in this world of grievers. And it's a

0:21:59.436 --> 0:22:03.036
<v Speaker 2>different sort of understanding about life once you've lost something

0:22:03.076 --> 0:22:06.236
<v Speaker 2>like that, but you're not alone in it, and then,

0:22:06.316 --> 0:22:09.516
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think that's why I've been moved to

0:22:09.556 --> 0:22:14.956
<v Speaker 2>have conversations about about grief with people is just because

0:22:16.996 --> 0:22:21.876
<v Speaker 2>it's the most human of all things to die, and

0:22:22.356 --> 0:22:26.276
<v Speaker 2>nobody wants to talk about it. It's very much like

0:22:26.356 --> 0:22:30.276
<v Speaker 2>me talking about caregiving, right, Like, the only way that

0:22:30.316 --> 0:22:34.076
<v Speaker 2>we normalize these things for people is to talk about them.

0:22:34.396 --> 0:22:38.116
<v Speaker 2>And it's true, we've all loved, we're all gonna hopefully

0:22:38.116 --> 0:22:41.916
<v Speaker 2>we're all lucky enough to love somebody so much that

0:22:42.076 --> 0:22:44.756
<v Speaker 2>it just wrecks you when you lose that love. And

0:22:45.796 --> 0:22:47.956
<v Speaker 2>I think about that a lot when I'm in my

0:22:48.236 --> 0:22:50.756
<v Speaker 2>sort of like lowest periods of grief, like where I'm

0:22:50.796 --> 0:22:52.876
<v Speaker 2>really feeling like I don't want to put one foot

0:22:52.876 --> 0:22:54.876
<v Speaker 2>in front of the other, Like what a thing that

0:22:54.996 --> 0:23:00.236
<v Speaker 2>I'm this sad? I loved him that much.

0:23:39.796 --> 0:23:42.756
<v Speaker 1>Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you found this

0:23:42.796 --> 0:23:45.676
<v Speaker 1>episode valuable, we on the Slight Change team would be

0:23:45.756 --> 0:23:48.316
<v Speaker 1>so grateful if you could share the episode with someone

0:23:48.356 --> 0:23:51.916
<v Speaker 1>you know. If you want to hear more experiences of caregiving,

0:23:51.996 --> 0:23:55.076
<v Speaker 1>you might also enjoy our episode called I Gave Up

0:23:55.156 --> 0:23:58.996
<v Speaker 1>Asking Why Me. We appreciate your helping to spread the

0:23:58.996 --> 0:24:01.436
<v Speaker 1>word about our show, and if you're looking for more

0:24:01.476 --> 0:24:04.596
<v Speaker 1>stories of change, you can always check out our back catalog.

0:24:05.236 --> 0:24:18.076
<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much. A Slight Change of Plans is created,

0:24:18.116 --> 0:24:21.876
<v Speaker 1>written and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight

0:24:21.996 --> 0:24:26.236
<v Speaker 1>Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor

0:24:26.356 --> 0:24:30.636
<v Speaker 1>Kate Parkinson Morgan, our senior producer Trisha Bbida, and our

0:24:30.676 --> 0:24:35.116
<v Speaker 1>engineer Eric o'huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song

0:24:35.316 --> 0:24:38.876
<v Speaker 1>and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change

0:24:38.876 --> 0:24:41.756
<v Speaker 1>of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so a

0:24:41.796 --> 0:24:45.156
<v Speaker 1>big thanks to everyone there, and of course a very

0:24:45.196 --> 0:24:48.396
<v Speaker 1>special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight

0:24:48.476 --> 0:24:52.116
<v Speaker 1>Change of Plans on Instagram as doctor Maya Shunker. See

0:24:52.156 --> 0:25:11.516
<v Speaker 1>you next week.