1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:22,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin, I'm maya Shunker and this is a slight change 2 00:00:22,756 --> 00:00:25,556 Speaker 1: of plans, a show about who we are and who 3 00:00:25,636 --> 00:00:29,116 Speaker 1: we become in the face of a big change. This 4 00:00:29,196 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 1: is my second conversation with writer Kelsey Snow. If you 5 00:00:33,196 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 1: haven't heard the first one yet, it's in our show feed, 6 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:49,396 Speaker 1: and I suggest you start there. During my first conversation 7 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:52,156 Speaker 1: with Kelsey, we spoke about her years of caring for 8 00:00:52,196 --> 00:00:56,556 Speaker 1: her husband, Chris, who was diagnosed with ALS in twenty nineteen. 9 00:00:57,636 --> 00:01:02,436 Speaker 1: ALS is a progressive neurodegenerative disease. It can leave people 10 00:01:02,516 --> 00:01:05,556 Speaker 1: unable to move, talk, eat, and breathe on their own, 11 00:01:06,156 --> 00:01:09,876 Speaker 1: and it currently has no cure. Just a few days 12 00:01:09,956 --> 00:01:14,116 Speaker 1: after our conversation in September of twenty twenty three, Chris 13 00:01:14,116 --> 00:01:17,916 Speaker 1: sustained severe brain damage and was declared brain dead as 14 00:01:17,956 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: a result of complications from ALS. Kelsey and her two 15 00:01:22,236 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 1: children were at Chris's bedside before he was taken off 16 00:01:25,516 --> 00:01:29,516 Speaker 1: life support. Eight months later. Kelsey reached out to say 17 00:01:29,556 --> 00:01:31,956 Speaker 1: she wanted to share what life has been like since 18 00:01:31,996 --> 00:01:35,796 Speaker 1: then as she handles a new phase of mourning what 19 00:01:35,996 --> 00:01:40,916 Speaker 1: she calls quiet grief. We started our conversation with Kelsey 20 00:01:40,996 --> 00:01:43,196 Speaker 1: reflecting on Chris's final days. 21 00:01:44,356 --> 00:01:46,556 Speaker 2: Chris had had sort of just a low grade little 22 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:51,356 Speaker 2: cold for a while. It was nothing to make him worried, 23 00:01:51,396 --> 00:01:55,996 Speaker 2: to make me worried, And yeah, he was napping. He 24 00:01:56,076 --> 00:01:58,876 Speaker 2: fell asleep sitting up. I checked on him a few times, 25 00:01:59,116 --> 00:02:01,556 Speaker 2: and I had gotten a text that the grocery delivery 26 00:02:01,676 --> 00:02:05,796 Speaker 2: was here, and so I came upstairs and as I 27 00:02:05,836 --> 00:02:09,236 Speaker 2: was caring a box of groceries from the front door 28 00:02:09,276 --> 00:02:11,316 Speaker 2: to the island, I looked over at him and his 29 00:02:11,356 --> 00:02:16,276 Speaker 2: lips were blue. So that started, you know, the whirlwind 30 00:02:16,396 --> 00:02:19,756 Speaker 2: of of what you do in an emergency, right nine 31 00:02:19,836 --> 00:02:25,916 Speaker 2: one one CPR, ambulance, fire trucks, first responders. He did 32 00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:29,156 Speaker 2: not have a pulse when they got here, and I 33 00:02:29,276 --> 00:02:31,836 Speaker 2: was talking to a firefighter who was sort of just 34 00:02:31,836 --> 00:02:34,196 Speaker 2: sitting by me, and I asked if I could touch Chris. 35 00:02:34,796 --> 00:02:36,596 Speaker 2: He said yes, of course, and I went over and 36 00:02:37,476 --> 00:02:40,876 Speaker 2: I held his arms sort of at his elbow. And 37 00:02:41,156 --> 00:02:43,876 Speaker 2: after like ten seconds, they've been working on him for 38 00:02:44,156 --> 00:02:49,396 Speaker 2: some minutes and no pulse, and I put my hand 39 00:02:50,476 --> 00:02:52,276 Speaker 2: sort of on the kirk of his elbow and I 40 00:02:52,316 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 2: could feel his pulse come back, and I said, oh, 41 00:02:55,116 --> 00:02:57,116 Speaker 2: he has a pulse, And so then they were rushed 42 00:02:57,756 --> 00:02:59,916 Speaker 2: once they got the pulse established to go to the 43 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:02,876 Speaker 2: emergency room in the hospital's three minutes from our house, 44 00:03:03,036 --> 00:03:05,636 Speaker 2: and when we got there, his pulse was in and 45 00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:08,396 Speaker 2: out again. They sent me to like a waiting room 46 00:03:08,756 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 2: while they worked on him. At one point the doctor 47 00:03:11,276 --> 00:03:14,396 Speaker 2: who was leading the charge or whatever he came in 48 00:03:14,436 --> 00:03:16,836 Speaker 2: and asked me, told me that he Chris did not 49 00:03:16,876 --> 00:03:20,276 Speaker 2: have a pulse again and I should I should come 50 00:03:20,356 --> 00:03:23,436 Speaker 2: see him. And I walked into like a scene from 51 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:27,396 Speaker 2: Er Gray's Anatomy, like doctors everywhere, and I'm over to 52 00:03:27,476 --> 00:03:29,516 Speaker 2: him and I held his hand again and I was 53 00:03:29,556 --> 00:03:31,876 Speaker 2: talking to him. They rushed him to get a CT 54 00:03:32,196 --> 00:03:34,516 Speaker 2: and it was pretty immediately after that that the doctors 55 00:03:34,516 --> 00:03:36,316 Speaker 2: told me He's not going to come back from this. 56 00:03:37,836 --> 00:03:40,836 Speaker 2: So I made all those phone calls I arranged for 57 00:03:40,916 --> 00:03:43,356 Speaker 2: whoever had my kids to bring them that I had 58 00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:45,596 Speaker 2: to tell them that dad wasn't going to wake up. 59 00:03:46,876 --> 00:03:52,116 Speaker 2: And it wasn't long after that that we we realized 60 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:53,876 Speaker 2: he could be an organ downer, which we did not 61 00:03:54,076 --> 00:03:57,716 Speaker 2: know that he could do that, and that gave a 62 00:03:57,716 --> 00:04:02,156 Speaker 2: lot of comfort. That was as good of a death 63 00:04:02,196 --> 00:04:06,436 Speaker 2: as I think Chris could have had. The reality is 64 00:04:06,516 --> 00:04:08,276 Speaker 2: like he was never going to give up, no matter 65 00:04:08,276 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 2: how hard it got, because he would never have been 66 00:04:12,436 --> 00:04:16,036 Speaker 2: able to choose to leave us. And so in my mind, 67 00:04:17,916 --> 00:04:22,356 Speaker 2: taking a nap in your house that you loved, there 68 00:04:22,356 --> 00:04:26,476 Speaker 2: are worse things. Yeah, it felt for me like he 69 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:28,796 Speaker 2: gave us the chance to really have a lot of 70 00:04:28,836 --> 00:04:32,116 Speaker 2: really beautiful moments with him in the hospital. You know, 71 00:04:32,196 --> 00:04:35,676 Speaker 2: my kids got to see their dad and he had colors, cheeks, 72 00:04:35,716 --> 00:04:38,516 Speaker 2: and his hands were warm, and we got to spend 73 00:04:38,556 --> 00:04:41,076 Speaker 2: a lot of time with him like that and do 74 00:04:41,636 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 2: a goodbye in that way versus you know, them not 75 00:04:45,356 --> 00:04:50,876 Speaker 2: ever seeing their dad in the way that they remembered him. Yeah. 76 00:04:50,916 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 1: In the immediate aftermath of Chris's death, there were so 77 00:04:55,596 --> 00:04:58,316 Speaker 1: many logistical things for you to take care of, right, 78 00:04:58,876 --> 00:05:02,836 Speaker 1: planning a funeral, planning a memorial service. Can you paint 79 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:07,396 Speaker 1: me a picture of what that memorial service was like. 80 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:11,916 Speaker 2: So we decided to have it at this large Catholic 81 00:05:12,036 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 2: church that he really enjoyed. There were four eulogies. Yeah, 82 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:20,876 Speaker 2: four eulogies. I wanted someone from each part of his 83 00:05:20,956 --> 00:05:24,076 Speaker 2: life to speak to that part of his life. He 84 00:05:24,156 --> 00:05:26,356 Speaker 2: had asked that only thing I knew about his funerals 85 00:05:26,356 --> 00:05:28,796 Speaker 2: that he wanted me to give a eulogy, which I 86 00:05:28,876 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 2: was like, thanks, there's a reason why, like spouses don't 87 00:05:35,516 --> 00:05:40,916 Speaker 2: usually eulogize. But his sister gave a beautiful eulogy about 88 00:05:40,996 --> 00:05:44,276 Speaker 2: their childhood and who Chris was and growing up together. 89 00:05:45,036 --> 00:05:48,796 Speaker 2: And then one of his best friends from university gave 90 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:51,716 Speaker 2: a eulogy about their time working with the student newspaper 91 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:54,796 Speaker 2: together and the boss that Chris had. He eulogized Chris, 92 00:05:55,636 --> 00:06:00,876 Speaker 2: and then I did. In the days that followed his service, 93 00:06:01,116 --> 00:06:04,676 Speaker 2: I found myself almost obsessively asking people like I think 94 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:10,276 Speaker 2: I even asked you in a text, Yeah. 95 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:09,036 Speaker 3: Was it good? 96 00:06:09,436 --> 00:06:12,516 Speaker 2: Was do you think he would have been proud of it? Did? 97 00:06:12,596 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: Was it enough? And I was like why do we 98 00:06:14,716 --> 00:06:17,276 Speaker 2: keep asking people this? And I realized this because like 99 00:06:17,436 --> 00:06:19,676 Speaker 2: the one person that I wanted to ask was him, 100 00:06:19,716 --> 00:06:25,716 Speaker 2: and I couldn't. Yeah. Something I said in the eulogy 101 00:06:26,476 --> 00:06:28,796 Speaker 2: was about how I have never believed in a person 102 00:06:28,876 --> 00:06:31,276 Speaker 2: more than I believe in Chris. Like this is probably 103 00:06:31,276 --> 00:06:36,236 Speaker 2: why his death was so shocking to me, because I 104 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:40,076 Speaker 2: believed in him so completely that when he said I'm 105 00:06:40,116 --> 00:06:43,876 Speaker 2: not going anywhere for a very long time, I believed him, 106 00:06:44,996 --> 00:06:49,916 Speaker 2: and over the course of his illness, our relationship shifted 107 00:06:49,916 --> 00:06:51,956 Speaker 2: in the sense that he came to me a lot 108 00:06:51,996 --> 00:06:56,156 Speaker 2: more for reassurance, and I sort of became his barometer, 109 00:06:56,276 --> 00:07:01,836 Speaker 2: whereas i'd always made him the barometer. And what I 110 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:04,996 Speaker 2: realized and said in my eulogy is just that I 111 00:07:05,116 --> 00:07:07,716 Speaker 2: realized he'd spent the last four and a half years 112 00:07:08,196 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 2: like making mean that he believed in just as much 113 00:07:12,436 --> 00:07:16,916 Speaker 2: as I believed in him. Yes, and now in this 114 00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:21,036 Speaker 2: world that I walk without him, I just take him 115 00:07:21,036 --> 00:07:24,516 Speaker 2: with me everywhere, and I hear what he would say 116 00:07:24,596 --> 00:07:27,956 Speaker 2: about all the things I'm doing, and I know how 117 00:07:27,996 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 2: completely he believed in me, and that bollives me a 118 00:07:31,516 --> 00:07:34,716 Speaker 2: lot on days when I feel unsure. 119 00:07:35,036 --> 00:07:40,796 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's such a physicality around grief, and I wonder 120 00:07:40,836 --> 00:07:45,476 Speaker 3: if you can talk a bit about the physical sensations 121 00:07:45,516 --> 00:07:47,756 Speaker 3: and how they can just hit you out of nowhere. 122 00:07:48,876 --> 00:07:52,996 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we love in such a visceral way 123 00:07:53,116 --> 00:07:55,676 Speaker 2: that it makes sense that we would grieve in that 124 00:07:55,716 --> 00:07:59,556 Speaker 2: same way. Think about those feelings you have in love, right, 125 00:07:59,676 --> 00:08:02,996 Speaker 2: like the butterflies and that floating feeling and that high, 126 00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:07,316 Speaker 2: that adrenaline, right, and then just put the total opposite 127 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:13,316 Speaker 2: spin on it in death. For me, it's very much 128 00:08:13,676 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 2: in my chest. In the days after Chris died, it 129 00:08:17,156 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 2: was so sharp and so hard that I found myself 130 00:08:20,996 --> 00:08:25,276 Speaker 2: actually like applying counter pressure to it. And I've wrote 131 00:08:25,316 --> 00:08:28,916 Speaker 2: about a lot like I take my sadness with me 132 00:08:29,236 --> 00:08:33,516 Speaker 2: and it's my companion and my grief, my sadness that's 133 00:08:33,596 --> 00:08:40,516 Speaker 2: always there. It's something that I carry to the grocery 134 00:08:40,556 --> 00:08:46,276 Speaker 2: store and to hockey and everywhere in between. Like it's 135 00:08:46,516 --> 00:08:52,236 Speaker 2: a physical weight, but it's not a bad weight. It's 136 00:08:52,436 --> 00:08:55,836 Speaker 2: like when I would wear my kids when they were babies. 137 00:08:57,316 --> 00:09:00,036 Speaker 2: It's heavy. After a while, it might feel heavy, but 138 00:09:00,116 --> 00:09:00,556 Speaker 2: it's love. 139 00:09:04,796 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 140 00:09:07,116 --> 00:09:21,876 Speaker 1: of plans. Chris passed away in September. Can you tell 141 00:09:21,916 --> 00:09:24,476 Speaker 1: me about how the holidays unfolded for you as a family. 142 00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:29,756 Speaker 2: Yeah. I expected that I would have a hard time 143 00:09:30,036 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 2: with Christmas, right, like all the decorations and the all 144 00:09:33,236 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 2: of that. For the most part, that was better than 145 00:09:35,636 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 2: I thought it was. There were a couple of real 146 00:09:37,116 --> 00:09:42,396 Speaker 2: stumbling blocks for me, like his stocking and whether or 147 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:44,996 Speaker 2: not we hang that up, Like how do we do 148 00:09:45,036 --> 00:09:45,516 Speaker 2: these things? 149 00:09:45,556 --> 00:09:47,356 Speaker 1: And how did you just I mean for those listening 150 00:09:47,396 --> 00:09:51,596 Speaker 1: who are going through similar challenges like, yeah, how do 151 00:09:51,676 --> 00:09:53,876 Speaker 1: you decide in those moments like what is the framework 152 00:09:53,996 --> 00:09:55,276 Speaker 1: or even thinking about this? 153 00:09:56,396 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think that there is a doing it right, 154 00:10:00,116 --> 00:10:05,596 Speaker 2: and the doing it right is just like completely swaddling 155 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:10,356 Speaker 2: yourself in grace. And so and you see those stockings, 156 00:10:10,436 --> 00:10:13,916 Speaker 2: whether you hang his stocking up or not, who knows. 157 00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 2: Who knows if you're going to make the right decision, 158 00:10:16,636 --> 00:10:19,796 Speaker 2: because there isn't a right decision. All of it is 159 00:10:19,876 --> 00:10:23,036 Speaker 2: just grace in that moment you make the decision and 160 00:10:23,076 --> 00:10:27,636 Speaker 2: if later you think, well, you give yourself grace. And 161 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 2: I think that's the only way to get through grief 162 00:10:30,156 --> 00:10:35,276 Speaker 2: in a way that doesn't completely destroy you. 163 00:10:35,556 --> 00:10:36,636 Speaker 1: Yeah. 164 00:10:36,996 --> 00:10:40,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I don't know. I don't We did the Christmas. 165 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:43,996 Speaker 2: My mom has always made us. I have two sisters 166 00:10:44,116 --> 00:10:50,236 Speaker 2: made us ornaments using pictures that of when we were kids, babies, toddlers, whatever, 167 00:10:50,676 --> 00:10:52,356 Speaker 2: and then a're so special and my kids love to 168 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:54,276 Speaker 2: look at them when they take them out every year, 169 00:10:54,316 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 2: and it's like you get to see this picture and 170 00:10:56,196 --> 00:10:58,076 Speaker 2: then you put it away and then you remember it 171 00:10:58,116 --> 00:10:59,796 Speaker 2: again the next year. So it makes it kind of 172 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 2: special and so I decided I would make them for 173 00:11:04,396 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 2: I'd make them each twenty five ornaments of pictures of 174 00:11:07,796 --> 00:11:10,916 Speaker 2: them with Chris. Every morning they opened a new ornament, 175 00:11:11,236 --> 00:11:14,476 Speaker 2: and there are pictures from all different parts of his life, 176 00:11:14,716 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 2: when he could smile, when he couldn't smile, all those things. 177 00:11:18,636 --> 00:11:21,956 Speaker 2: And so we joked that it was our like Christ, 178 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:23,596 Speaker 2: because it was like all. 179 00:11:23,516 --> 00:11:26,236 Speaker 1: Dad fitting that it's a dad joke. 180 00:11:26,476 --> 00:11:29,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know dad jokes for moms. I'm here for 181 00:11:29,196 --> 00:11:31,956 Speaker 2: that novel. I have to do it and my responsibility. 182 00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:36,836 Speaker 1: Of course, of course you've talked about how by early 183 00:11:36,956 --> 00:11:40,956 Speaker 1: January many of the logistics and other tasks related to 184 00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:45,516 Speaker 1: Chris's death had been resolved, and so suddenly your to 185 00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:48,836 Speaker 1: do list is much more empty than it was before. 186 00:11:49,156 --> 00:11:50,836 Speaker 1: So what was that time period like for you? 187 00:11:51,956 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 2: Yeah? What I realized is that I had never grieved 188 00:12:00,316 --> 00:12:04,436 Speaker 2: without a to do list, and so I was really 189 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:06,716 Speaker 2: I had become very good at grief on the fly, 190 00:12:07,316 --> 00:12:11,716 Speaker 2: if that makes sense, like grieving in motion. Like I 191 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:13,796 Speaker 2: had to care for the kids, I had to care 192 00:12:13,876 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 2: for Chris, and the care for Chris was very twenty 193 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:20,356 Speaker 2: four to seven, and so I would give myself these 194 00:12:20,356 --> 00:12:22,996 Speaker 2: spaces to be sad or to be angry or to 195 00:12:23,036 --> 00:12:26,236 Speaker 2: be burnt out or whatever. And I was good at 196 00:12:26,276 --> 00:12:30,516 Speaker 2: that kind of grief. But I had never had to 197 00:12:32,116 --> 00:12:35,716 Speaker 2: just sit in my grief. And so I realized I 198 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:37,596 Speaker 2: knew how to do a busy grief, but I did 199 00:12:37,596 --> 00:12:42,076 Speaker 2: not know how to do quiet grief. And that is 200 00:12:42,196 --> 00:12:46,076 Speaker 2: what really January and February looked like for me was 201 00:12:46,156 --> 00:12:49,276 Speaker 2: getting up in the morning and getting the kids to school. 202 00:12:50,876 --> 00:12:54,996 Speaker 2: And I mean, I still I'm a solo parent, and 203 00:12:55,036 --> 00:12:58,596 Speaker 2: so I have a lot of tasks, but during those 204 00:12:58,596 --> 00:13:01,836 Speaker 2: school hours, I could decide, you know, I have the 205 00:13:03,316 --> 00:13:06,316 Speaker 2: real privilege of not having to go back to work 206 00:13:06,396 --> 00:13:09,996 Speaker 2: right now, I have the privilege to grief, and like, 207 00:13:10,036 --> 00:13:13,116 Speaker 2: I want to move forward while still giving my self 208 00:13:13,156 --> 00:13:19,156 Speaker 2: permission to be still. It's a weird sort of conundrum. 209 00:13:19,156 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 2: I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm trying. 210 00:13:22,756 --> 00:13:26,676 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know if there are surprising things you 211 00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:30,276 Speaker 1: found about what works best for you, or ways that 212 00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:33,276 Speaker 1: you found that are better to grieve just for you specifically, 213 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:36,316 Speaker 1: you know, because it's a process of self exploration. 214 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:39,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, I found that one thing that was really really 215 00:13:39,916 --> 00:13:43,116 Speaker 2: good for me was getting up early and having that quiet, 216 00:13:43,196 --> 00:13:45,716 Speaker 2: dark I would turn like one light on in the house, 217 00:13:45,996 --> 00:13:48,676 Speaker 2: and I'd make my coffee, and my French press is 218 00:13:48,676 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 2: sitting there right by my you know alexa, and I 219 00:13:51,316 --> 00:13:55,676 Speaker 2: would scroll through the photos on the Alexa of Chris 220 00:13:55,756 --> 00:14:00,156 Speaker 2: that we had played at his memorial service and look 221 00:14:00,196 --> 00:14:02,796 Speaker 2: at just these different parts of him and his life. 222 00:14:02,876 --> 00:14:05,916 Speaker 2: And then I'd sit on do a little bit of 223 00:14:06,036 --> 00:14:09,676 Speaker 2: journaling and read whenever it was that I was reading, 224 00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:13,436 Speaker 2: And that was a really good thing for me. I 225 00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:16,596 Speaker 2: stopped drinking in January. That was a distraction that I 226 00:14:16,636 --> 00:14:19,596 Speaker 2: didn't think was helping me at that point. And even 227 00:14:19,636 --> 00:14:23,876 Speaker 2: though I drink, but not often and not much, whereas 228 00:14:23,916 --> 00:14:26,516 Speaker 2: before I was sort of like a beer while I 229 00:14:26,556 --> 00:14:29,356 Speaker 2: make dinner kind of a person. I find that my 230 00:14:29,396 --> 00:14:32,476 Speaker 2: sleep is better, my clarity is better. I just like 231 00:14:32,556 --> 00:14:37,796 Speaker 2: the idea that whatever I'm feeling, it's not a feeling 232 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:43,396 Speaker 2: produced by any anything but my own brain. So that 233 00:14:43,476 --> 00:14:47,476 Speaker 2: was really good for me. I like physical reminders. I 234 00:14:47,516 --> 00:14:50,556 Speaker 2: hardly ever wore my wedding drinks before Chris died, and 235 00:14:51,076 --> 00:14:54,716 Speaker 2: I have hardly taken them off since he died. I 236 00:14:54,756 --> 00:15:00,716 Speaker 2: feel very married, and I think without him by my side, 237 00:15:00,756 --> 00:15:02,436 Speaker 2: it's the only way that I can let people know 238 00:15:02,556 --> 00:15:06,076 Speaker 2: that I still feel very married. I got a tattoo 239 00:15:06,956 --> 00:15:07,836 Speaker 2: which I had never. 240 00:15:07,916 --> 00:15:09,236 Speaker 1: Noticed that on your arm. 241 00:15:09,356 --> 00:15:14,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful, so it's thank you. It's four 242 00:15:14,156 --> 00:15:18,716 Speaker 2: corn flowers. The cornflower is the symbol for als, and 243 00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:21,956 Speaker 2: so four for each of us, and I wanted it 244 00:15:21,956 --> 00:15:23,716 Speaker 2: in a place that i'd see it every day. 245 00:15:25,316 --> 00:15:31,036 Speaker 1: I'm curious to know whether since losing Chris, you've changed 246 00:15:31,076 --> 00:15:32,796 Speaker 1: in any ways that have surprised you. 247 00:15:34,316 --> 00:15:38,276 Speaker 2: Yeah. I am somebody who doesn't like love, confrontation, or 248 00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:41,036 Speaker 2: just wants everybody to like her. I have really given 249 00:15:41,036 --> 00:15:44,196 Speaker 2: myself permission to no longer be that way. 250 00:15:45,876 --> 00:15:48,396 Speaker 1: I mean, that's huge. 251 00:15:48,636 --> 00:15:51,956 Speaker 2: I have unread text messages and un listened to voice 252 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 2: messages from the days and weeks after Chris died, still 253 00:15:55,356 --> 00:15:57,236 Speaker 2: on my phone. I don't know if I'll ever listen 254 00:15:57,276 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 2: to them, and I have given myself permission to be like, 255 00:16:00,636 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 2: that's okay. I saw one of Chris's, one of our 256 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:05,276 Speaker 2: good friends, and when we were in San Diego, and 257 00:16:05,316 --> 00:16:07,876 Speaker 2: I asked him. I was like, were you at this service? 258 00:16:07,916 --> 00:16:09,716 Speaker 2: And he was like, oh, yeah, I saw you. I 259 00:16:09,756 --> 00:16:12,116 Speaker 2: hugged you. I was, and I was like, I'm so sorry. 260 00:16:12,116 --> 00:16:14,676 Speaker 2: I totally forgot, and normally in my brain I'd be like, 261 00:16:14,836 --> 00:16:16,316 Speaker 2: oh my god, I can't believe I did that, and 262 00:16:16,356 --> 00:16:18,916 Speaker 2: I was just like, whatever. 263 00:16:18,636 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: I forgot, yeah, yeah. 264 00:16:20,956 --> 00:16:23,756 Speaker 2: So more so for me it's been I think it's 265 00:16:23,756 --> 00:16:27,596 Speaker 2: that feeling of belief that Chris had in me and 266 00:16:27,836 --> 00:16:35,636 Speaker 2: believing that myself, like having a real solid footing in 267 00:16:35,676 --> 00:16:39,316 Speaker 2: who I am, and that this is the time in 268 00:16:39,356 --> 00:16:43,036 Speaker 2: my life when I tell people that's not good for me, 269 00:16:44,036 --> 00:16:46,276 Speaker 2: or I don't tell them anything at all if it 270 00:16:46,316 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 2: doesn't feel right, and not feeling like I need to 271 00:16:49,996 --> 00:16:55,796 Speaker 2: apologize for whatever decision I made. 272 00:16:56,116 --> 00:17:01,156 Speaker 1: Go Kelsey. I love this new energy from you. It's 273 00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:07,356 Speaker 1: just as your friend. I'm like ron On girl. You 274 00:17:07,356 --> 00:17:09,516 Speaker 1: know one thing you had shared when we last spoke 275 00:17:09,556 --> 00:17:13,796 Speaker 1: for the podcast. You talked about feeling like a grief misfit, 276 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:16,036 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering, can you tell us what you meant 277 00:17:16,036 --> 00:17:19,836 Speaker 1: by that and how that's evolved. 278 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:23,916 Speaker 2: I was grieving in this slow motion and I was 279 00:17:23,996 --> 00:17:29,836 Speaker 2: preparing for this grief, but I couldn't fully know what 280 00:17:29,876 --> 00:17:33,196 Speaker 2: it was going to be like. And I wasn't on 281 00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:36,116 Speaker 2: either side. I wasn't on the side of somebody who's 282 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:43,116 Speaker 2: blissfully unaware that your life is so fragile, and I wasn't. 283 00:17:43,156 --> 00:17:45,356 Speaker 2: On the other side of like, I have lost the 284 00:17:45,356 --> 00:17:49,636 Speaker 2: biggest thing, and I think what that can look like. 285 00:17:49,756 --> 00:17:51,796 Speaker 2: That in between part is like it can look like 286 00:17:51,836 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 2: a lot of silver linings. You can sort of negate 287 00:17:56,196 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 2: your grief because well, I have Chris. I have Chris. 288 00:17:59,436 --> 00:18:02,236 Speaker 2: Even though I've lost all these very vital parts of 289 00:18:02,276 --> 00:18:05,756 Speaker 2: what I fell in love with, I still have Chris 290 00:18:05,916 --> 00:18:09,516 Speaker 2: kind of a thing. And so I think being on 291 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:14,596 Speaker 2: the other side of this, there's an immense amount of guilt. Like, 292 00:18:14,716 --> 00:18:17,076 Speaker 2: first of all, I was Chris's caretaker. My job was 293 00:18:17,116 --> 00:18:20,876 Speaker 2: to keep him alive. I failed. That's the first element 294 00:18:20,876 --> 00:18:21,356 Speaker 2: of grief. 295 00:18:22,156 --> 00:18:23,516 Speaker 1: It's painful to even hear that. 296 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:27,196 Speaker 2: There's a logic brain and there's an emotion brain, right, 297 00:18:27,596 --> 00:18:31,996 Speaker 2: and my logic brain knows that, but my emotion brain 298 00:18:32,396 --> 00:18:35,396 Speaker 2: wins most of the time. The other part of the 299 00:18:35,436 --> 00:18:38,596 Speaker 2: guilt is that, like there were many times like be 300 00:18:38,676 --> 00:18:43,596 Speaker 2: a caregiver, the way that I was a caregiver is very, 301 00:18:43,796 --> 00:18:49,796 Speaker 2: very painful. I could not be Chris's wife and he 302 00:18:49,796 --> 00:18:55,876 Speaker 2: couldn't be my husband in those times, and that really 303 00:18:55,996 --> 00:18:59,956 Speaker 2: really is unfair. And there were many times when I thought, 304 00:18:59,996 --> 00:19:01,756 Speaker 2: I just need a break. I want a break. I 305 00:19:01,796 --> 00:19:05,036 Speaker 2: want to be able to fall asleep on the couch 306 00:19:05,076 --> 00:19:07,396 Speaker 2: reading a book and not have to get up because 307 00:19:07,476 --> 00:19:10,436 Speaker 2: Chris needs is forty five. I've been at bedtime routine 308 00:19:10,476 --> 00:19:13,796 Speaker 2: like I just want a break. And in the days 309 00:19:13,836 --> 00:19:18,916 Speaker 2: after Chris died, your brain says, well, you wanted a break, 310 00:19:19,436 --> 00:19:24,196 Speaker 2: and now you got it, and you're horrible, Like that's 311 00:19:24,196 --> 00:19:26,756 Speaker 2: what your brain is telling you right like you asked 312 00:19:26,756 --> 00:19:36,276 Speaker 2: for this. The truth of the matter is that when 313 00:19:36,356 --> 00:19:43,636 Speaker 2: Chris died, the nuts and bolts of my life got 314 00:19:43,636 --> 00:19:49,316 Speaker 2: incredibly more easy. The emotional stuff got a lot harder. 315 00:19:49,716 --> 00:19:54,196 Speaker 2: But the caretaking it's like constant and chaotic and everywhere, 316 00:19:54,236 --> 00:19:57,796 Speaker 2: and your brain can't it's just boom boom, boom boom everywhere. 317 00:19:57,836 --> 00:20:00,636 Speaker 2: You've got something that somebody needs right now, all the time, 318 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:03,396 Speaker 2: and you're that person's arms, and you're that person's voice, 319 00:20:03,676 --> 00:20:07,556 Speaker 2: and you're that person's just everything. And the caregiving is 320 00:20:07,596 --> 00:20:10,036 Speaker 2: like these million things that are just like ping pong 321 00:20:10,076 --> 00:20:13,436 Speaker 2: balls bouncing around everywhere, and then all of a sudden, 322 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:17,156 Speaker 2: all the ping pong balls stop moving. They just fall 323 00:20:17,436 --> 00:20:19,996 Speaker 2: to the ground. And what you're left with is this 324 00:20:20,116 --> 00:20:26,276 Speaker 2: massive void, but what you do with your day is 325 00:20:26,316 --> 00:20:32,556 Speaker 2: all of a sudden up to you again. And I 326 00:20:32,596 --> 00:20:37,756 Speaker 2: said in therapy yesterday something that feels awful to say, 327 00:20:38,316 --> 00:20:42,116 Speaker 2: but like when Chris died, I got my life back 328 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 2: and the guilt associated with that feeling and that'll take 329 00:20:52,636 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 2: your breath away. So it's hard. It's hard. I know 330 00:21:01,196 --> 00:21:03,796 Speaker 2: that he wouldn't want me to feel that way. I'd 331 00:21:03,876 --> 00:21:09,836 Speaker 2: know that, but caring for your person and then losing 332 00:21:09,876 --> 00:21:14,876 Speaker 2: them is very complicated. Yeah, so it's a different saying 333 00:21:14,916 --> 00:21:16,836 Speaker 2: this side of grief for sure. 334 00:21:17,316 --> 00:21:17,756 Speaker 1: Yeah. 335 00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:22,396 Speaker 2: Yeah. It wasn't long after Chris died. I think that 336 00:21:22,436 --> 00:21:27,196 Speaker 2: I came across a poem by Donna Ashworth and there's 337 00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:31,276 Speaker 2: many beautiful lines, but the the end of it is, 338 00:21:31,476 --> 00:21:34,196 Speaker 2: grief came to you, my friend, because love came first. 339 00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 2: Love came first, and it came for me earlier than 340 00:21:43,436 --> 00:21:48,276 Speaker 2: it does for a lot of people. But I am 341 00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:53,476 Speaker 2: always bolstered by the fact that I'm not the only 342 00:21:53,516 --> 00:21:59,436 Speaker 2: one here in this world of grievers. And it's a 343 00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:03,036 Speaker 2: different sort of understanding about life once you've lost something 344 00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 2: like that, but you're not alone in it, and then, 345 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:09,516 Speaker 2: you know, I think that's why I've been moved to 346 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:14,956 Speaker 2: have conversations about about grief with people is just because 347 00:22:16,996 --> 00:22:21,876 Speaker 2: it's the most human of all things to die, and 348 00:22:22,356 --> 00:22:26,276 Speaker 2: nobody wants to talk about it. It's very much like 349 00:22:26,356 --> 00:22:30,276 Speaker 2: me talking about caregiving, right, Like, the only way that 350 00:22:30,316 --> 00:22:34,076 Speaker 2: we normalize these things for people is to talk about them. 351 00:22:34,396 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 2: And it's true, we've all loved, we're all gonna hopefully 352 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:41,916 Speaker 2: we're all lucky enough to love somebody so much that 353 00:22:42,076 --> 00:22:44,756 Speaker 2: it just wrecks you when you lose that love. And 354 00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 2: I think about that a lot when I'm in my 355 00:22:48,236 --> 00:22:50,756 Speaker 2: sort of like lowest periods of grief, like where I'm 356 00:22:50,796 --> 00:22:52,876 Speaker 2: really feeling like I don't want to put one foot 357 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:54,876 Speaker 2: in front of the other, Like what a thing that 358 00:22:54,996 --> 00:23:00,236 Speaker 2: I'm this sad? I loved him that much. 359 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:42,756 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you found this 360 00:23:42,796 --> 00:23:45,676 Speaker 1: episode valuable, we on the Slight Change team would be 361 00:23:45,756 --> 00:23:48,316 Speaker 1: so grateful if you could share the episode with someone 362 00:23:48,356 --> 00:23:51,916 Speaker 1: you know. If you want to hear more experiences of caregiving, 363 00:23:51,996 --> 00:23:55,076 Speaker 1: you might also enjoy our episode called I Gave Up 364 00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:58,996 Speaker 1: Asking Why Me. We appreciate your helping to spread the 365 00:23:58,996 --> 00:24:01,436 Speaker 1: word about our show, and if you're looking for more 366 00:24:01,476 --> 00:24:04,596 Speaker 1: stories of change, you can always check out our back catalog. 367 00:24:05,236 --> 00:24:18,076 Speaker 1: Thanks so much. A Slight Change of Plans is created, 368 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:21,876 Speaker 1: written and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. The Slight 369 00:24:21,996 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 1: Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor 370 00:24:26,356 --> 00:24:30,636 Speaker 1: Kate Parkinson Morgan, our senior producer Trisha Bbida, and our 371 00:24:30,676 --> 00:24:35,116 Speaker 1: engineer Eric o'huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song 372 00:24:35,316 --> 00:24:38,876 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 373 00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:41,756 Speaker 1: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so a 374 00:24:41,796 --> 00:24:45,156 Speaker 1: big thanks to everyone there, and of course a very 375 00:24:45,196 --> 00:24:48,396 Speaker 1: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight 376 00:24:48,476 --> 00:24:52,116 Speaker 1: Change of Plans on Instagram as doctor Maya Shunker. See 377 00:24:52,156 --> 00:25:11,516 Speaker 1: you next week.