Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
Speaker 1: welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
Speaker 1: mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I'm your host, Rams' job.
Speaker 2: He is Rams' job. I am q Ward. You are
Speaker 2: tuned in to Civic Cipher.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to you. We appreciate you checking us out
Speaker 1: and rocking with us every week. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of times we'll sit down, we'll put the
Speaker 1: show together, we'll strategize, weile brainstorm, will come to a consensus,
Speaker 1: and then we will bring you the stories that we
Speaker 1: feel help support the data and make things real for
Speaker 1: you or support the experiences that we're saying that we
Speaker 1: have as marginalized communities in this country. But today it
Speaker 1: is less a consensus and more some things that really
Speaker 1: stood out to Q. Q sent over a couple of
Speaker 1: things that he wanted to talk about, and I agreed
Speaker 1: that we should have these conversations, and so we would
Speaker 1: like for you to stick around because today's show is
Speaker 1: executive produced by q Ward. We're going to be talking
Speaker 1: about Daniel Penny being acquitted of the chokehold death of
Speaker 1: Jordan Neely in New York. That's been something that has
Speaker 1: been discussed for many months now. But obviously the acquittal
Speaker 1: itself is indicative of a pattern of treatment or mistreatment,
Speaker 1: I should say, of black people in this country. And
Speaker 1: we're going to explain our take on that. Q obviously
Speaker 1: is going to be starting us off there, and then
Speaker 1: we're going to also discuss how it just came to
Speaker 1: light that Florida police actually made and sold crack to
Speaker 1: black people in the eighties and then convicted them of
Speaker 1: crimes for buying the crack, and so that is entrapment
Speaker 1: of the highest order. So all that and so much
Speaker 1: more to stick around for. But before we get there,
Speaker 1: let's start off with some ebony excellence, shall we? I
Speaker 1: think we shall. I'll take this one go for today's
Speaker 1: ABNY Excellence is sponsored by Actively Black. There's greatness in
Speaker 1: our DNA. Visit actively black dot com. And this comes
Speaker 1: from the Grio. On Monday, December ninth, the Critics Choice
Speaker 1: Association gathered black stars across television and film to celebrate
Speaker 1: black storytelling within entertainment. The Critics Choice Association seventh Annual
Speaker 1: Celebration of Black Cinema and Television Awards honored fourteen actors, producers, directors,
Speaker 1: and composers, including Cynthia Rebo, Regina King, Tyler Perry, au Janee.
Speaker 2: Is that? Did I say that?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: I think that is a Jane Yeah, Ellis Taylor or
Speaker 2: on Janey.
Speaker 1: On Jeanney Ellis Taylor. Either way quote. We are proud
Speaker 1: to recognize this year's outstanding group of honorees, said Sean Edwards,
Speaker 1: executive producer and writer for the Celebration of Black Cinema
Speaker 1: and Television. As previously reported by The Grio, twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four was an exceptional year. There were so many great
Speaker 1: stories about the black experience, and this event is a
Speaker 1: celebration of the power of those stories which have shaped
Speaker 1: and moved the entertainment industry. It's a true acknowledgment of
Speaker 1: the profound impact of black cinema and television on today's
Speaker 1: culture and society. During the evening, hosted by comedian Jay Ferrell,
Speaker 1: Tyler Perry received the Icon Award for his career accomplishments
Speaker 1: as a self made media mobile, Although the actor and
Speaker 1: filmmaker says he was honored to be recognized for his
Speaker 1: twenty four films, twenty stage plays, seventeen television shows and
Speaker 1: the founding of Tyler Perry Studios in Atlanta. Perry admitted
Speaker 1: his struggle with the title icon, and so this was
Speaker 1: really a celebration of Tyler Perry. This is kind of
Speaker 1: how the article came down. And we are able to
Speaker 1: highlight black excellence once a week on this show. And
Speaker 1: I don't know that we've ever taken the time to
Speaker 1: really shout out Tyler Perry. So this is kind of
Speaker 1: one moment where we get to say, hey, you're doing
Speaker 1: something and something is not nothing, and hey, we applaud
Speaker 1: you for that. So yeah, shout out to Tyler Perry.
Speaker 2: Shout out to Tyler Perry.
Speaker 1: Man. All right, So Daniel Penny, just for folks that
Speaker 1: are just coming to this story, for folks that didn't
Speaker 1: that missed it.
Speaker 2: In the news, not everybody will just know that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's a story that was widely covered. Of
Speaker 1: course we covered it here on this show. This was
Speaker 1: an incident in New York City. There was a homeless man,
Speaker 1: a homeless black man. He was a Michael Jackson impersonator.
Speaker 1: Was when he was alive. He was a Michael Jackson impersonator,
Speaker 1: and he was a street performer. And this is how
Speaker 1: he made, you know, money, He performed in Times Square.
Speaker 1: For those that have been to Times Square, you know
Speaker 1: that it's a there's a lot of street performers. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of people in costumes and they work for tips.
Speaker 1: And also, I don't want homeless to make you think
Speaker 1: of like the worst possible circumstances. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of people who are temporarily homeless or a lot you
Speaker 1: know that there's a lot of prejudices I think that
Speaker 1: come with that.
Speaker 2: Term I was once homeless. If that helps come that
Speaker 2: for you a little bit, that's that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's a good way to say it. But
Speaker 1: the fact is is that this is how you would
Speaker 1: remember the story. He was a homeless Michael Jackson impersonator.
Speaker 1: He was a very thin man. He had his very
Speaker 1: selt figure. Of course he was able to impersonate Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1: He was having a mental episode, which we will get
Speaker 1: into in the article that we will share from. I
Speaker 1: think this was NBC News where we got this, and
Speaker 1: he was going through an episode on the train and
Speaker 1: this gentleman, Daniel Penny, decided to step in and restrain
Speaker 1: him as as Neely was having his breakdown, yelling at
Speaker 1: passengers on the train saying, you know, I don't care
Speaker 1: if I live or die. I think he was talking
Speaker 1: about him being hungry, you know, all this sort of stuff, right,
Speaker 1: So he's having a mental breakdown on the train. The
Speaker 1: Daniel Penny gentleman steps in, decides to be the hero,
Speaker 1: takes some vigilante justice, restrains him in a chokehold for
Speaker 1: about six minutes, after which Jordan Neely succumbed. You know,
Speaker 1: he died because he was choked to death. And when
Speaker 1: we learned about.
Speaker 2: This story, obviously this was very sad.
Speaker 1: And you know, there are people who will say, you know,
Speaker 1: and they and did say, well, he was stepping in,
Speaker 1: he was being.
Speaker 2: A true patriot.
Speaker 1: He was protecting the public from this nuisance from any
Speaker 1: potential harm. I think the guy probably weighed one hundred pounds,
Speaker 1: one hundred and ten pounds something like that.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Not that part matter, It doesn't, but you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like this big marine guy steps in and
Speaker 1: his you know whatever. But there are people on the
Speaker 1: other side who feel like this was a justifiable act
Speaker 1: and it's just unfortunate that Jordan lost his life, but
Speaker 1: that this Daniel Penny guy was protecting the public. That
Speaker 1: is their perspective and opinion on it.
Speaker 2: Even worse, their perspective and opinion is that he's a hero. Right.
Speaker 2: And I saw people praising God that he was not convicted, right.
Speaker 2: I think that they got chills and they were they
Speaker 2: felt that good that he got off. That he's a
Speaker 2: hero and a patriot.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so here's what I want to do. Let
Speaker 1: me finish painting this picture for you so that it
Speaker 1: brings you all the way up to speed in terms
Speaker 1: of what happened, and then we're going to discuss it. So,
Speaker 1: Daniel Penny was acquitted Monday of criminally legit homicide in
Speaker 1: the chokehold death of Jordan Neely, a thirty year old
Speaker 1: homeless man with a history of mental illness whose final
Speaker 1: moments on a New York subway train were captured on
Speaker 1: bystander video that set off weeks of protest and drew
Speaker 1: national attention. Before he encountered Penny, Neely, a former Michael
Speaker 1: Jackson impersonator, ranted about being hungry and thirsty and said
Speaker 1: he wanted to return to jail and didn't care if
Speaker 1: he lived or died. Witnesses testified Penny twenty six, a
Speaker 1: former marine and Long Island native, placed Neely in a
Speaker 1: chokehold that prosecutors said lasted almost six minutes. The decision
Speaker 1: on the fifth day of deliberations came after the jury
Speaker 1: deadlocked Friday on the more serious charge of manslaughter, leading
Speaker 1: the judge to dismiss it. Penny faced up to four
Speaker 1: years in prison. During their trial, Penny's attorneys told jurors
Speaker 1: that he stepped in because he believed Neelie might attack
Speaker 1: other passengers, and he intended only to restrain him until
Speaker 1: police arrived, which Penny also told police. They also argued
Speaker 1: that Neely was not killed by the chokehold, and that
Speaker 1: it was impossible to measure how much pressure Penny had
Speaker 1: applied enough to kill somebody. I'm sure, but that's not
Speaker 1: their position. I'll continue. A forensic pathologist hired by the
Speaker 1: defense testified that Neely died from a combination of his schizophrenia,
Speaker 1: synthetic marijuana, sickle cell trait, and the struggle from being
Speaker 1: in Penny's restraint. But the medical examiner who performed the
Speaker 1: autopsy on Neely, doctor Cynthia Harris, again, Yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: let me go back, and I think that we should
Speaker 1: break this whole thing down here.
Speaker 2: That part deserves some extra attention. Say that part slowly
Speaker 2: and all I got you.
Speaker 1: A forensic pathologist hired by the defense testified that Neely
Speaker 1: died from a combination of his schizophrenia, synthetic marijuana, sickle
Speaker 1: cell trait, and the struggle from being in Pennies restraints.
Speaker 2: So we're clear. Yeah, Daniel Penny's attorneys the defense I want.
Speaker 2: I don't want you guys to hear defense and think
Speaker 2: anything else. The attorneys for the guy accused of killing
Speaker 2: the gentleman that we watched him kill on video, his
Speaker 2: attorneys aren't arguing, and a pathologist that they hired supporting
Speaker 2: their argument that all of these other things, in combination
Speaker 2: with their client choking him for six minutes is why
Speaker 2: he's no longer with this.
Speaker 1: This is insulting that it won't even like accept responsibility
Speaker 1: for it. I mean, I think it's in that space
Speaker 1: that that failure to take responsibility, to take accountability, in
Speaker 1: that space is where.
Speaker 2: A pattern that we've called out on this show. My
Speaker 2: client did nothing wrong is always their position, not my
Speaker 2: client doesn't deserve the worst pot outcomes or the worst sentencing. No,
Speaker 2: my client didn't do anything. We know you have a video.
Speaker 2: We saw the video too. We saw the same video
Speaker 2: you saw he died from. And we still think it'sophrenia
Speaker 2: a sickle cell trait, not sickle cell a trait. The
Speaker 2: next thing you said move me even more though.
Speaker 1: All right, so now I'm gonna continue. But the medical
Speaker 1: examiner who performed the autopsy on neily pause.
Speaker 2: The medical examiner typically that works for the state that
Speaker 2: performed the autopsy, very important data, okay, not the pathologists that.
Speaker 1: The defense hired. This is the person who examined the
Speaker 1: body after it was brought to them.
Speaker 2: And determined the cause of death. That's typically what the
Speaker 2: medical examiner performing an autopsy does. That's typically the reason
Speaker 2: they do it.
Speaker 1: And this is the and I'm glad you said that
Speaker 1: because I want you to hear this next part in
Speaker 1: her name. The medical examiner, doctor Cynthia Harris, told jurors
Speaker 1: it was in her it was her medical opinion quote
Speaker 1: that there are no alternative reasonable explanations for his death
Speaker 1: and that those proposed by the defense were so improbable
Speaker 1: that it stands shoulder to shoulder with impossibility.
Speaker 2: Okay, And I keep saying, defense because that's how people
Speaker 2: are used to hearing that word with regards to criminal trials. Defense.
Speaker 2: When you say defense, people hear sports or they might
Speaker 2: think something else. But Rameses is saying that word properly
Speaker 2: is just typically in the context of a legal case
Speaker 2: or hearing you hear defense. Yeah, the attorneys for the
Speaker 2: person who committed the crime on the video that we
Speaker 2: all saw.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that it's in that space where
Speaker 1: we find the why. Why was the Black Lives Matter
Speaker 1: movement and born? Now, this is not me talking to
Speaker 1: people that understand our plight. This is me talking to
Speaker 1: either those people who need to have conversations at the
Speaker 1: dinner table with their racist uncles or you know, neighbors.
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to give you this game. Or if
Speaker 1: you happen to be one of those people that thinks
Speaker 1: that this show is just completely baseless and whatever, but
Speaker 1: you happen to listen every week, we appreciate you. This
Speaker 1: is for you, just so you understand the why behind it. Okay,
Speaker 1: Q made a great point. You could say, hey, look,
Speaker 1: this was an accident. My client didn't intend for this
Speaker 1: to happen. We don't think that our client should be
Speaker 1: sentenced too harshly, and that would conform with the reality
Speaker 1: that we all share. But oftentimes, when it's a white
Speaker 1: perpetrator and a black victim, white people get to fly
Speaker 1: above of even a shared reality, and it's insulting and
Speaker 1: hurtful because in this case you see it on full display.
Speaker 1: The defense said it was a combination of schizophrenia, synthetic marijuana,
Speaker 1: marijuana in the history of marijuana has never killed anybody,
Speaker 1: and a sickle cell trait.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're saying this young man is patient zero for
Speaker 2: death by marijuana right now.
Speaker 1: Again, that flies above indeed, the shared reality that we
Speaker 1: saw on video. To Q's point of him getting choked
Speaker 1: to death, Okay, all the things were true prior to
Speaker 1: him getting choked to death, and then when he gets
Speaker 1: choked to death, then they want to point at all
Speaker 1: these other things like, Okay, well he smoked legal the
Speaker 1: synthetic marijuana or whatever. You know. He may as well said, hey,
Speaker 1: he he had a cigarette when he was at sixteen
Speaker 1: with his friends, or he crossed the street funny or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And it's that part that's
Speaker 1: so insulting and hurtful because we can see that you
Speaker 1: don't even need to have a defense based in reality
Speaker 1: in order to get off right. And so the idea
Speaker 1: of black lives matter for folks that don't agree with
Speaker 1: the premise of this show, For people that throw Chicago,
Speaker 1: why do you care about police violence? Why do you
Speaker 1: care about systemic oppression? Why don't you care about Chicago?
Speaker 1: In Chicago, if a black person kills another black person,
Speaker 1: there is at least the potential that somebody will be
Speaker 1: held accountable, that there might be coming.
Speaker 2: If in Chicago, a black man kills a black man
Speaker 2: on camera is then apprehended and arrested safely and not
Speaker 2: gunned down, it's going to jail. That's the whole story.
Speaker 1: Boom And when the police do it, or when apparently
Speaker 1: this guy Dan Annual Penny does it, or when or
Speaker 1: Scores was the kid's name, Kyle ritten the house? Yeah,
Speaker 1: all that, all that.
Speaker 2: When they look like that and they go out and
Speaker 2: kill people for whatever their mental crusade is, and the
Speaker 2: reason that they hold up their fists and tell the
Speaker 2: public they were there to protect. They get to go home,
Speaker 2: some of them get to go them tours and sign
Speaker 2: autographs and take pictures.
Speaker 1: There it is, and so you can appreciate how this
Speaker 1: is very hurtful. And the thing is you might think that,
Speaker 1: you know, for folks that disagree, you might think we're
Speaker 1: cherry picking these stories. These are sensational headlines that we're picking,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah whatever. But again, this is a data
Speaker 1: driven program, and the data supports the outcomes that we
Speaker 1: choose to share with you on the show. These outcomes,
Speaker 1: these stories give you insight into the data. This makes
Speaker 1: the data real for long time listeners to the show
Speaker 1: that know that to be true about this program. So
Speaker 1: now you begin to understand and the push behind the
Speaker 1: whole Black Lives Matter movement in twenty It started in
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, be honest with you, but in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: when it became more visible that certain people can harm
Speaker 1: black and brown bodies and get away with it. And
Speaker 1: it's like they're playing in our faces. Like you said,
Speaker 1: we know you saw the video, but what you saw
Speaker 1: you didn't see. Now here's why we there's this movement
Speaker 1: that says black lives matter. Q doesn't like when I
Speaker 1: do this, I'm going to be very careful how I
Speaker 1: say this. Change. Jordan Neely, the person who was choked
Speaker 1: to death on that subway. Change Jordan Neely to a
Speaker 1: white person. I could go into more detail to help
Speaker 1: you picture it, but pick your favorite white person. Change
Speaker 1: Jordan Neely to that person, same story as a mental breakdown.
Speaker 1: Is hungry saying he's hungry, having a you know, he's
Speaker 1: fed up, having a moment whatever, and he gets choked
Speaker 1: to death. Does this story happen the same way? Does
Speaker 1: this person Daniel Penny get off Scott free? Does the
Speaker 1: defense get to plan our face saying, well, it was
Speaker 1: a combination of a sickle cell trait and an other thing,
Speaker 1: and well, you know, he didn't actually kill him. This
Speaker 1: guy was already you know. Does that happen? Or does
Speaker 1: the story not happen? And the mental breakdown continues to
Speaker 1: happen for another forty seconds until the train gets to
Speaker 1: the next stop. The white person gets to get off
Speaker 1: the train and go on about their lives until their
Speaker 1: mental episode is over, until they get something to eat,
Speaker 1: find a place to sit down, relax and recalibrate, and
Speaker 1: then nothing to see here, which is more likely because
Speaker 1: I can tell you what the data supports, So now
Speaker 1: you have some insight into, at least for me, why
Speaker 1: this is such a hurtful thing. I know that you
Speaker 1: had a lot more to contribute, but I just wanted
Speaker 1: to bring folks up to speak.
Speaker 2: I try to not allow my emotions to completely take
Speaker 2: over when we're doing the show, because it would make
Speaker 2: me a more calloused, more cold, less empathetic person. Because
Speaker 2: we're too informed, We have too much in the way
Speaker 2: of information. We see too many stories, we know too
Speaker 2: many outcomes, and we have the data to support. So
Speaker 2: how I feel is completely justified. But what I try
Speaker 2: to do is I try really hard to try to
Speaker 2: see things from someone else's perspective, those who might care
Speaker 2: about this person, those who might not want their brother
Speaker 2: or their son, or their dad or their husband to
Speaker 2: go to jail forever for protecting the public right. And
Speaker 2: in that case, I can see how a family member
Speaker 2: or somebody that knows this person personally, that can see
Speaker 2: him through a different LANs. Because we don't know what's
Speaker 2: his name, Daniel Pinny, We don't know him. He might
Speaker 2: be an awesome guy. This might be the worst thing
Speaker 2: he's ever done. And you and I often speak about
Speaker 2: not holding someone to the worst thing that they've ever done. Right,
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to go as extremely far the other
Speaker 2: way as possible for the nature of this conversation, and
Speaker 2: simply ask, how come we're always the worst thing we've
Speaker 2: ever done. Yeah, they wouldn't have put marijuana. We will
Speaker 2: never get that benefit of the doubt. How come even
Speaker 2: when we're the victim, we're painted in the worst possible way.
Speaker 2: How come this guy who murdered someone on camera gets
Speaker 2: to be a hero and a patriot who only sought
Speaker 2: out to protect, and the person he killed, who did
Speaker 2: nothing to him or anyone else, gets to be the
Speaker 2: mentally sick, drug addict, homeless transient. Yeah, even in this story,
Speaker 2: even giving him the Okay, let's not make Daniel Penny
Speaker 2: the worst person ever. Let's make it so he gets
Speaker 2: to make this horrible mistake, but go home to his family.
Speaker 2: Even in death. We have to insult the black victim
Speaker 2: of this murder. There is a perpetual benefit of the
Speaker 2: doubt for white people in this country, for white men
Speaker 2: in this country, for those who victimize black people, even
Speaker 2: if they're not white, as long as they're not also black,
Speaker 2: Because if they're also black, we got dated to support
Speaker 2: our black on black crime fight, our black on black
Speaker 2: crime argument. But if they're George Zimmerman. He can follow
Speaker 2: a young man, stalk him, catch him, and kill him,
Speaker 2: and then stand on his right to defend himself and
Speaker 2: stand his ground, and then go on an autograph tour
Speaker 2: and sign skittles to add insult to injury, because that's
Speaker 2: the candy that the kid that he murdered was buying.
Speaker 2: Kyle Rittenhouse gets to take his rifle drive to a
Speaker 2: town he doesn't live in, take that rifle out, kill
Speaker 2: people and get off because he's there to protect, and
Speaker 2: then go on a tour and sign autographs and take pictures.
Speaker 2: And then this guy gets to get celebrated by social
Speaker 2: media as a hero after we watched him murder another
Speaker 2: unarmed black man who wasn't actually causing anyone any harm.
Speaker 2: And we have to just accept it because that's just
Speaker 2: the way it is. And when we leave the house
Speaker 2: every day, we know our possible outcomes and how the
Speaker 2: world might remember us after