1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: Chuck and this is Stuff you should Know about one 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 2: of the more shameful chapters in US history and indeed 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 2: medical history. I think you could say too. 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. And by the way, if you hear 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 3: weird noises, my immediate neighborhood is sort of crazy right now. 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 2: What's going on? 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 3: Well, I've got construction next door, I've got a lawn 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 3: crew across the street, and they're also shooting a movie 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 3: across the street. So it's just pandemonium is happening outside 12 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 3: these sort of quiet doors. 13 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 2: You know what. I would call that shameful. 14 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 3: Not like this no episode, for sure. 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: That was my attempt at segaway. 16 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, nice work. 17 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: I don't know about that, but thanks. 18 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: By the way, this one is a listener recommended and 19 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 3: a teenage listener. This came from Miles Kendrick, a fourteen 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 3: year old. 21 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 2: Nice Miles, great idea. 22 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for that. 23 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about what's called the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment 24 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: or Tuskegee Syphilis Study, and the actual official name for 25 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: it was the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the 26 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 2: Negro Male. 27 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, that spells it all out, doesn't it. 28 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 2: It does. The fact that there's an official title for 29 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: this just really kind of goes to show you just 30 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 2: how nefarius the whole thing was. And it was indeed 31 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: a nefarious experiment, no matter. It doesn't really matter how 32 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 2: you slice it. You can look at it any number 33 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: of ways and it always still washes out stinky. 34 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it does. And this was an experiment. I mean, 35 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 3: I guess we'll go ahead and say what happened generally 36 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: is that they recruited black men in Macon County, Alabama 37 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 3: that had syphilis. Kind of one of the misconceptions is 38 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 3: that they were given syphilis as part of this. Not true, 39 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 3: but don't worry. We did that in Guatemala, as we'll 40 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 3: see later on. Yeah, and sign them up for this 41 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 3: study where they would not treat these men of syphilis 42 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 3: just to see how it progressed, basically because they had 43 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 3: this notion and you know, of course just doesn't excuse anything. 44 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: But one of the supposed reasons that they had this 45 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 3: notion that syphilis would was different in white men than 46 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 3: black men, and that in black men, it was more 47 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 3: cardiovascular based as far as the symptoms and the results, 48 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 3: and then in white men it was more neurological. And 49 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: it was initially supposed to be a six month thing, 50 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: but it went on not for four years, not for 51 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 3: fourteen years, but for forty years. 52 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,399 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it started out in nineteen thirty two 53 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: in the Jim Crow South and it carried right through 54 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: the entire Civil Rights era. A number of other historical 55 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: things happened during this time that should have given the 56 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: researchers pause. From what I saw, the best explanation is 57 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: not that these people were inherently evil, although you can 58 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: make a case that at least one of the people 59 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: who led the study at one point was we'll talk 60 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: about him later in Guatemala, But more that they just 61 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,239 Speaker 2: came to see these these men, these individuals, these human beings, 62 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: there's nothing more than a data set, and that they 63 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 2: stripped them of their humanity so thoroughly that they didn't 64 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: even really think that this was there was anything wrong 65 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: with what they were doing, even over the course of 66 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: forty whole years. 67 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. And the reason why they chose Macon County is 68 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: a few reasons. One, it's proximity to Tuskegee, which was 69 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 3: you know, key is the place where they carried this 70 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: stuff out and others because they they zoned in on 71 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 3: that area because they initially were trying to find out 72 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 3: how many people had syphilis and where so they could 73 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 3: treat these men, right, and they found that Macon County, 74 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: Alabama had the highest prevalence of syphilis. And also in 75 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: this last art comes from the files that were released 76 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: and collected I think in the last decade. Even they 77 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 3: were sharecroppers, there were rural men, and they were poor men. 78 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 3: And the quote that was in these papers that I 79 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: found was that they found them immobile and malleable. 80 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were an extremely vulnerable population. I mean even 81 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: among the black population at large in the Jim Crow era, 82 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: these were like the most vulnerable people and they had 83 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: less rights than even other black people at the time 84 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: in America. So yeah, they picked on them very specifically. 85 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: And that you kind of hinted at something that I 86 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: find as one of the most cynical aspects of this 87 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 2: whole thing, that initially the program that was working down 88 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: there was a well funded program that was treating syphilis, 89 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: and then the funding ran out of that and they said, well, 90 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: we still have all these people that we know have syphilis. 91 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 2: Let's try something different and not treat them. And that 92 00:04:58,440 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: was the beginning of the whole thing. 93 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's also key to point out before we 94 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 3: get into the grizzly details, is that these men did 95 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 3: not know they had syphilis, and then they also thought 96 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 3: that they were being treated. They were told they had 97 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 3: quote bad blood, and the whole time they thought they 98 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 3: were getting treatment when they were getting placebos. 99 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. And then there were I read a couple 100 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: of men who suspected or knew they had syphilis and 101 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: wanted to go get it treated, and the people running 102 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 2: the study prevented them from getting it treated, either by 103 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: telling them not to go do that or by telling 104 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 2: doctors in the area, do not treat any of these 105 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: men because they're part of the study we're carrying out. 106 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: Because that's another thing too. I think a lot of 107 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: people think that this was some secret government study conducted 108 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 2: in absolute silence. It was not at all. It wasn't 109 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: even an open secret. It wasn't a secret at all, 110 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: so much so that the people running the study published 111 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: thirteen different journal articles over the course of that forty 112 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 2: years and put out annual reports, published annual reports on 113 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: the progress of this thing. So it was just right 114 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: out there, and people just overlooked it or ignored it 115 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 2: for four decades. Yeah. 116 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: It was a time when you know, the medical community 117 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 3: certainly was aware, but the public at large and the 118 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: media didn't really look into you know, medical papers and 119 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 3: stuff like they. 120 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: Do these days. 121 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, And we should point out that all of this 122 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: was done despite a nineteen twenty seven statute in the 123 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 3: state of Alabama that requires treatment of syphilis, Like it 124 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 3: was a state law that they just rushed aside, basically, 125 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 3: And all of this done for the promise of hot meals, 126 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: treatment and burial insurance basically. 127 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I mean, I think that's 128 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: a pretty good setup. I think we should kind of 129 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: describe what these men were suffering from, yeah, in the 130 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 2: first place, and talk a little bit about syphilis. 131 00:06:59,080 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: Let's do. 132 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 3: It was caused by a bacterium called its spiral shaped 133 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 3: and it's called the Treponema palladum bacterium. And they don't 134 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: know where it came from, but they know that it 135 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: dates at least all the way back to Naples in 136 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 3: fourteen ninety five when mercenaries serving in the French Army 137 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: got syphilis and then very quickly spread it far and wide, 138 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 3: because for eight years later it was in India and China. 139 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: That's pretty fast, man. 140 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 141 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: One of the reasons it was so fast is because 142 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: these were armies pillaging and raping, and syphilis is primarily 143 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: transmitted through sexual contact. It can also be transmitted or 144 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: transferred from an infected woman to her fetus, but for 145 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: the most part it comes from unprotected sex to this 146 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 2: std Yeah, and there's a there's a hypothesis that it 147 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: came back with Columbus and his men, who were again 148 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: pillaging and raping, and they had contracted what is considered 149 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: a new world disease, syphilis, and brought it back to Europe, 150 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 2: and that's where it spread. Apparently, there's no actual hard 151 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: evidence of this or hard proof, but the timing, I 152 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: think is what people zero in on. I mean, it 153 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: first popped up in fourteen ninety five, and everyone knows 154 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: thanks to that child prodigy whose name escapes me right now, Stoner. 155 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: I think her last name is Stoner Sackler. The Columbus 156 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: sailed the Ocean Blue in fourteen ninety. 157 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 3: Two, that's right, and if you got syphilis, you were 158 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 3: in for a pretty rough run, including possibly eventually death 159 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 3: in a lot of cases. If you were an infant, 160 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 3: it could be certainly fatal. It could cause blindness and deafness. 161 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 3: It could cause facial differences with teeth and the nose 162 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 3: brain complications. Of course, if you were an adult, you 163 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 3: would get lesions, and then within a few months it 164 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 3: goes into the second stage, where you have lesions basically 165 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 3: all over your body, rashes and pains and headaches, and 166 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: finally the disease in the third phase, it dials back 167 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 3: at abates a little bit where it's not transmissible. But 168 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: in that latency period, all of a sudden, it can 169 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 3: attack your organs, specifically your liver and cause liver failure 170 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: and kill. 171 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: You, and blindness and neurological impacts like dementia and paralysis. 172 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: And that's one of the things that makes it so 173 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: insidious is after the initial infection symptoms, it just seems 174 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 2: like it went away, and then out of nowhere it 175 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: can just come back and kill you. Like you're saying, right, 176 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: So this is what these men specifically in this study 177 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 2: were dealing with. I think all of them were in 178 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: late latency syphilis where they didn't necessarily have symptoms any longer. 179 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 2: And the idea that this was an indefinite open study 180 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: that was essentially like this study will end when all 181 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: these guys are dead, meant that they were specifically by 182 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: not treating them waiting to see how they died, including 183 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: from complications of syphilis like you said, that included organ 184 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 2: failure throughout the body. 185 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, And they ended up getting three hundred and ninety 186 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: nine men that were infected and then two hundred and 187 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 3: one that served as a control. And part of the 188 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 3: recruitment involved a Tuskegee Institute nurse named Eunice Rivers, who 189 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 3: ended up being a very vilified person because she was 190 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 3: a black woman who helped recruit these guys. There was 191 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 3: advertisements by word of mouth and churches and stuff like that, 192 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 3: and she was co authored on two of the thirteen papers. 193 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 3: And you know, of course was vilified for this for 194 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: you know, doing this to men from her own race. 195 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: But it seems like she knew what was going on, 196 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 3: but she really believed what she was being told by 197 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 3: the Public Health Service that black men it progressed differently 198 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 3: in them than in white men. And that's sort of 199 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 3: the basis of what they were trying to root out. 200 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: I saw that she also reasoned it that at least 201 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:05,119 Speaker 2: these sharecroppers were getting treatment that they otherwise couldn't have afforded, 202 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: which was no treatment exactly. And hot meals too, like 203 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: that was I mean, this is it started during the depression. 204 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: Hot meals were such an incentive that people would submit 205 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: to medical experiments for them. So that was a like 206 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: it's easy now to look to overlook how important that was, 207 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: but that was a big, a big deal sweetener for them. 208 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, and penicillin was something that they had been you know, 209 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 3: they'd been searching for something like penicillin for a long time, 210 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 3: especially in Germany. They were looking for they called it 211 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 3: a magic bullet that would, you know, kill the micro organism, 212 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 3: kill the bacteria without harming the cells that it was infecting. 213 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 3: And from nineteen ten on they had some stuff that 214 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 3: kind of worked, something called oh boy, here we go 215 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: ares phenamine? Yeah, do you or spinamine? 216 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: That's what I was going to go with nice coorts. 217 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: But in nineteen forty a Scottish position named Alexander Fleming 218 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: came along and had proven basically in nineteen twenty eight 219 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 3: that penicillin worked, and in nineteen forty was when it 220 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 3: was finally published in the Lancet. Is like, hey, this 221 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 3: is sort of this miracle magical that we were looking for, 222 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: and you know, nineteen forty is kind of squarely in 223 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 3: the middle of this study. Yet they didn't use penicillin 224 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 3: still to heal these guys. 225 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: No, I mean like the fact that a treatment, because 226 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: before that treatment was really bad for you. They would 227 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: like people have been using mercury to treat it since 228 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: about fifteen hundred and then that arsphenamine was a type 229 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: of arsenic I think you said so, like it might 230 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: not have worked, It took a year, it was very expensive, 231 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: and it was not a pleasant thing. When the penicillin 232 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: came along, you could get one injection of high dose 233 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: penicillin and it could cure syphilis in eight days. It 234 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: could even cure late stage latency syphilis that was already 235 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: attacking your organs. It could at least cure the it 236 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 2: wouldn't reverse the organ damage. So the fact that they 237 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: knew that this existed, I read the Public Health Service 238 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: was instrumental in developing penicillin as a treatment for syphilis. 239 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: So it's not like the Public Health Service hadn't heard 240 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 2: that that penicillin worked. That is one of the more 241 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: damning points, Like there's no defense that they could offer 242 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: that would justify withholding penicillin since they knew it worked, 243 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: and the study went on for what thirty one more 244 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: years after that? 245 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone ever contended that 246 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 3: it was on the table like, hey, we have a cure, 247 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 3: now it's going to stop, because they that's not what 248 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 3: they were after to begin with. 249 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: No, And in fact, there were quotes from people later 250 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 2: on who were involved and tried to defend it that 251 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 2: was basically like, yeah, we had to we had to 252 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 2: actively make sure that these guys didn't get penicillin from 253 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: other doctors who didn't know about the study for things 254 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: like colds or whatever, because they would accidentally cure the syphilis. 255 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 2: That's the links that they went to, like the penicillin 256 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 2: was an enemy to this study essentially, is how they 257 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: thought of it. 258 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 3: Well, one more link that they went to before we 259 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: take a break was when World War II rolls around, 260 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 3: they purposefully made sure that these study subjects, these men 261 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 3: were exempted from the draft. Because when you go through 262 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: the draft process, you get tested for STDs and treated 263 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 3: for STDs, and so they're like, no, no, no, that'll ruin 264 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 3: our study. We got to make sure these guys don't 265 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: get drafted. So the takeaway from that is is these 266 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 3: men probably would have been better off like being drafted 267 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 3: and potentially even like storming the beach at Normandy than 268 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: being at home in Alabama being quote unquote treated by doctors. 269 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 2: That's a good point. And the way that they did 270 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: it too kind of shows just how complicit a lot 271 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: of people in the area where it's not that the 272 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: public Health service didn't pull some strings to make this happen. 273 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 2: They went to the director of public health for Macon 274 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: County and said, hey, you're friends with the guy running 275 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: the Selective Service board. Why don't you, you know, make 276 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: sure that this works. And he did. He pulled the 277 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 2: right strings and and he made it happen. But so 278 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: this was a there were a lot of people who 279 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: came together to make this happen and to prevent these 280 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: men from getting their syphilis treated one way or another. 281 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: All right, let's take that break and we'll be right 282 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 3: back right after this. 283 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: Okay, we're back, Chuck and we should probably talk about 284 00:15:58,280 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: how this study began. 285 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was launched by the director of phs's Venereal 286 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 3: Disease Division, someone named Talia Faroh Clark, and it was 287 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 3: a two arms study again, a control group and an 288 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 3: infected group. And I believe Clark did not suggest giving placebos, 289 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 3: even though that happened. But he also didn't say, Hey, 290 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 3: you know, we're trying to study the difference between how 291 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 3: it progresses in black men and white men. Let's bring 292 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: in some white men. They strictly focused on black men. 293 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was actually a reason for that. There was 294 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: a study that was very similar that was conducted in Oslo, Norway, 295 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: from eighteen ninety one to nineteen ten, and the results 296 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 2: were published in nineteen twenty nine that did the same 297 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: thing but to all white men. So essentially they used 298 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: that data from the Oslo study as a comparison, or 299 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 2: they planned to. I guess, yeah, sure right, so you know, 300 00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: it's all good. 301 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 3: Tuskegee itself was chosen again I mentioned because of its 302 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 3: proximity to where they were, you know, drawing from for 303 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 3: Macon County, but also because of the government links with 304 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: the Tuskegee Institute. 305 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: Booker t. 306 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 3: Washington had come along and really shaped a critical educational 307 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: institution in the United States. They were serving needy black 308 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 3: people of Alabama and it's you know, that's another one 309 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 3: of the just big shames is that it puts such 310 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 3: a black eye on what this you know, kind of 311 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: great institution. 312 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is the hospital where people would go. 313 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: This is I think where nurse Eunice Rivers worked too. 314 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: So it was a huge betrayal of that community. And 315 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: I mean, even though it's developed by leaps and leaps 316 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: and bounds and it's now Tuskegee University, like you said, 317 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: it was a black eye. But even worse than that. 318 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 2: Everybody calls this, including us, the Tuskegee Experiment. They don't 319 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: call it the Public Health Service Syphilis experiment or the 320 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 2: US government syphlists experiment. So it's an ongoing black guy 321 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: on Tuskegee University too. 322 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 323 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 3: For sure, they were deceived from the beginning, you know, 324 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 3: like we said at Bears repeating that they thought they 325 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 3: were signing up for treatment. In fact, they called it 326 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 3: a quote special free treatment end quote. And you know, 327 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 3: so these guys lined up for it. You know, they 328 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 3: thought they had bad blood and they got placebos in 329 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 3: the name of aspirin, mainly like five thousand pink aspirin 330 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: tablets were shipped in nineteen thirty four. Also, these these 331 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 3: tonics that then tinctures they would mix up that you know, 332 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: they said, was gonna get their bad blood treated. 333 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: Yes, so you said that tel Afario Clark or Talafaro Clark, 334 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: and it conceived of this whole study. I think he 335 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: stepped aside pretty early on, and starting in nineteen thirty three. 336 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 2: The next year a guy named Raymond Vanderler picked up 337 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: and took over and actually expanded it and now said, Okay, 338 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: we're looking for neurological effects. Let's start giving these guys 339 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 2: spinal taps that are really really dangerous, can be really painful, 340 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: and can give you horrible headaches afterward too, So let's 341 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: just throw that in for you know, just for kicks. 342 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. And also in those papers that were released and 343 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 3: collected recently, that same person there was a letter where 344 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 3: he was talking about all the complaints from oh, yes, 345 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: so the patients getting spinal taps and how awful it was, 346 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 3: and he was like I'm paraphrasing, but basically like now 347 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 3: I'm the one with the headache. 348 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he said that. So, yes, this is kind 349 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 2: of like the patronizing, at the very least patronizing tone 350 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: that the people running this experiment had toward everybody. 351 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 352 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 2: So we said also that penicillin came around in the 353 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: late nineteen forties or nineteen forties at some point, and 354 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: that was one thing that it was like, Okay, you 355 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 2: guys should have stopped everything and giving these guys penicillin. 356 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: Another thing happened in the nineteen forties that essentially should 357 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 2: have put an end to this, and that was the 358 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: Nuremberg Trials after World War Two, where, among other people, 359 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: a bunch of Nazi doctors, I think twenty three Nazi 360 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 2: doctors were put on trial for war crimes for running horrible, 361 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: horrific medical experiments on people during World War Two, and 362 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 2: I think seven of them were sentenced to death. And 363 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: yet despite that, the people running this syphilist study were 364 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: just like, gosh, that, I mean, Nazis suck good thing. 365 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: We're not Nazis. We're just going to continue on with 366 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: this experiment. 367 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 3: Yeah. In nineteen fifty seven, this is in the twenty 368 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 3: fifth year, the Surgeon General awarded certificates to these patients like, 369 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 3: you know, congratulations on all your work here in this 370 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 3: and participating in this study. And then later on in 371 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three, one of the researchers, John Charles Cutler, 372 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 3: and we're going to talk about him a bit later 373 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 3: as well, there was a quote where he said it 374 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 3: would be undesirable to go ahead and use large amounts 375 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 3: of penicillin to treat the disease, because you'd interfere with 376 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 3: the study. So you know, they were on record like 377 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 3: time and time again, through countless different changes over these 378 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: forty years at Tuskegee, these doctors and nurses, the people 379 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 3: in the public health system, Like it wasn't just like 380 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 3: one like mad scientist running the show all these years. 381 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 3: It was just new people kind of changing hands and 382 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 3: leading this charge like year after a year for forty years. 383 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. And one of the things that they clung to, 384 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: both internally and externally is this idea that became outdated 385 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 2: when penicillin came along, but they still kept going with 386 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:49,680 Speaker 2: this excuse was that treating late latency, late stage syphilis 387 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: could actually cause more harm than good. You could get 388 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 2: this syphilis stirred up again and that could cause that 389 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: organ failure, so you're better off not treat And by 390 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 2: the time penicillin came along, by the time Nuremberg came along, 391 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: all of these patients would have been in late latency 392 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 2: syphilis were they not already. So that was the thing, Like, 393 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: that was what they would push back on, even though 394 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: it was not true anymore. I like, once penicillin came along, 395 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: it was not dangerous at all, and it really really worked, 396 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 2: and yet they still use that as an excuse whenever 397 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 2: it was challenged. It was very rarely challenged, but it 398 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: was challenged by some people, as we'll see. 399 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was the first person brave enough to even 400 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: say anything was named Count Gibson. He was a Richmond 401 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 3: physician heard about the study through a lecture in the 402 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 3: nineteen fifties from Sydney Olanski and wrote a letter saying, 403 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 3: I'm gravely concerned about the ethics of the entire program. 404 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 3: He continued to sort of observe the study after penicillin 405 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 3: came along, and he, you know, Alonski basically came back 406 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 3: and said, I think our work is helping out these 407 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 3: participants overall, and just keep quiet about it. 408 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, just all of the thinnest excuses that that was 409 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: what they would defend themselves with. I guess Count Gibson 410 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 2: did end up keeping quiet because the medical college that 411 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: he worked at in Virginia essentially said you need to 412 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: be quiet or else, I would guess, lose your job. 413 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: So that was in the fifties, right, Yeah. Next up 414 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: was a guy named Bill Jenkins, who was one of 415 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 2: the CDC's first African American professional workers. He was a statistician. 416 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 2: His widow also called him a essentially a radical that 417 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 2: was very involved in the civil rights movement from a 418 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 2: very early time. And he learned about this and the 419 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: bald face racism that was just inherent, and it really 420 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: obviously stuck in his craw and he tried very hard 421 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 2: to get the New York Times in the Washington Post 422 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 2: to cover it, and they didn't. He later said, we 423 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: probably should have a press release and done it differently. 424 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: They just sent all this stuff in the New York 425 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 2: Times and WAPO. It's not clear whether they would have 426 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 2: published anything on it anyway, but he gave it a try, 427 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: and he eventually was like, I can't do anything else. 428 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 2: I think he also tried internally too to get it 429 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: to stop, and it just didn't happen. 430 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was sixty and sixty four. There was 431 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 3: a Detroit cardiologist named Irwin J. Shatz, and he was like, 432 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 3: I can't believe what's going on, Like I read this study, 433 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 3: because again, you know, they were putting out these studies 434 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 3: in the medical community was reading them and some people 435 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 3: were like, wait a minute, what is going on down there? 436 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 3: And he said, I suggest that you reevaluate your moral 437 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 3: judgments on this. And there was a co author named 438 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 3: Anne R. Yobs who said it was a co author 439 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 3: of the Syphilist study that said it was the first 440 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 3: letter they got like that and that she planned to 441 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: ignore it. 442 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, they were also pretty arrogant in this 443 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 2: stuff too. Well. They eventually ran head to head with 444 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 2: a guy named Peter Buxton who was working for the 445 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 2: Public Health Service. He was a venereal disease investigator in 446 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: the Tenderloin in San Francisco. I think he was twenty 447 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: eight in the late sixties or mid sixties, sorry, nineteen 448 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 2: sixty five, and he, I guess heard a colleague talking 449 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: about this study and said, which a what? And he 450 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: started looking into the reports. He got the Public Health 451 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: Service people running this the Venereal Disease Division to send 452 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 2: him all of their reports, and he read through them 453 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 2: and he could not believe what he was reading. And 454 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 2: he went directly to William J. Brown, who was the 455 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: head of the Venereal Disease Division at the time, and 456 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: he said, like, what are you doing. You stop this. 457 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 2: This is a horribly unethical study. I can't believe you 458 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 2: guys are doing this. And William J. Brown said, well, 459 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: it's all good. These guys are getting medical care that 460 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: they otherwise wouldn't. And by the way, did we say 461 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 2: it's dangerous to treat people with late stage syphilis? And 462 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 2: I'm sure Peter Buckson said no, it's not. William Brown 463 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:00,959 Speaker 2: said yes it is. And it just went like that 464 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 2: for a while. 465 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 3: Well, they also responded that, hey, this is political dynamite, 466 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 3: and a nineteen sixty nine review said it was a 467 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: hot potato. So like they knew, you know, like full 468 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 3: well at this point that it was morally and ethically 469 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 3: wrong and racist, and that like if this got out, 470 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 3: like this has started when they kind of internally started 471 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 3: talking about, hey, if this got out, this would look 472 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 3: really bad. Before this, I don't even think they even 473 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 3: thought about it but Buckston would end up being a whistleblower. 474 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 3: He would send his files to the AP, and an 475 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 3: AP reporter named Gene Heller wrote a article that ended 476 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: up being published in the New York Times, And that 477 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 3: was in nineteen seventy two, seven years after Buxton first 478 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 3: started looking into it. And that's what finally blew it 479 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 3: wide open. 480 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw that despite being aware that this 481 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 2: could look bad for the public Health Service, I think 482 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 2: now the CDC, the people involved in the study were 483 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 2: really surprised and taken aback by the public outrage that 484 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 2: erupted in immediately from this article. I mean, because it 485 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 2: was AP. That meant all of the newspapers across the 486 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: country carried it, and a lot of them put it 487 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 2: on their front page. So everyone all of a sudden 488 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: knew about this horribly unethical, racist study. And it came 489 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 2: to art screeching, halt. 490 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 3: Boy, that sounds like a great time for a break. Yes, 491 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 3: you can't throw on the brakes without taking a break, 492 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: that's our motto. 493 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:52,360 Speaker 1: Yep, we'll be right back, all right. 494 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 3: So Josh threw on the brakes just like the doctors 495 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 3: performing the Tuskegee syphilis experiments, and teen seventy two, it 496 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 3: was a big political scandal Senator Edward M. Kennedy of 497 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 3: Massachusetts called congressional hearings. Buxton testified there, of course, And 498 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy two, kind of late nineteen seventy two, 499 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 3: an ad hoc advisory panel said, you got to stop 500 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 3: this study. It's pretty clear it's ethically unjustified. 501 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: Was the quote. 502 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 3: And it results in quote, disproportionately meager compared with known 503 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 3: risks to the human subjects involved. 504 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean when they started to look into it, 505 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: they were like, this study is not even particularly scientific. 506 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 2: And one of the big things I saw was in 507 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 2: an episode of a podcast called Distillation by the Science 508 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: History Museum, and they were basically saying, some of these 509 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 2: guys did accidentally get treated with penicillin. Other guys in 510 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: the control group accidentally contracted syphilis. And so they would 511 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 2: just take one and be like, Okay, you're in the 512 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 2: control group now because you got you got treated accidentally, 513 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 2: you caught accidentally, you're in this untreated group. They would 514 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 2: just shuffle people around. It was not a very well 515 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: run study, considering how much time and effort was put 516 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: into it. 517 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they never got any like great data 518 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 3: in return for this forty years of you know, I 519 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 3: mean torture basically. 520 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: You know, the data I saw that they did get 521 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: was possibly as many as one hundred and twenty eight 522 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: of these men died from untreated syphilis. Yeah, like that's 523 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: the bottom line here. They would not have otherwise died 524 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: because penicillin is so effective. They died specifically because they 525 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: were participants in this study. And that is that. There's 526 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: no other way to put it. 527 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if you remember in nineteen ninety seven, 528 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 3: I remember when this happened, President Clinton invited at the time, 529 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 3: there were eight living survivors of the experiments to the 530 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 3: White House to offer, you know, the formal apology and 531 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: said it was like a clearly racist, shameful thing that 532 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 3: you endured. And this was after a legal settlement settlement. 533 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 3: There was a ten million dollar legal settlement and benefit 534 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 3: program at the time. I think when it ended, seventy 535 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 3: men who had not received treatment were still alive, and 536 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 3: the survivors got thirty five thousand dollars, their heirs got 537 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 3: fifteen thousand dollars from a class action lawsuit. And then 538 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 3: they started in nineteen seventy three to Tuskegee Health Benefit 539 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 3: Program basically like, hey, we're going to provide medical care 540 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 3: for your survivors, for your families, for widows, for your children, 541 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 3: basically starting in nineteen seventy five. 542 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's something that is forgotten. A lot of times, 543 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 2: these men had families, they had wives, They sometimes had 544 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 2: wives that they were still having babies with. So like 545 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: their spouses and their newborn children were at tremendous risk 546 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: of contracting syphilis because they were in this untreated programs. 547 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 2: So free health care for the life of them, their 548 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 2: spouses and their children seems like the like step one, 549 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: the most basic thing that you could do, you know. 550 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, the effects of this were devastating, 551 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 3: certainly to those families and to the men who participated 552 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 3: and died, and even the ones who didn't. But an 553 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 3: ongoing effect has been felt, you know, even today and 554 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 3: since then they've done studies and found data basically that 555 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 3: all but proves that the Tuskegee experiments had a negative 556 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 3: effect on African Americans in the United States, not trusting doctors, 557 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 3: not trusting nurses, not trusting the medical establishment at all, 558 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 3: and not seeking treatment and having negative health effects because 559 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 3: of this, and they've basically proven it because it's even 560 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 3: more localized, Like the closer you get to making county, 561 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 3: the more the data has proven that people did not 562 00:31:58,800 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 3: trust doctors. 563 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's another moniker that I'm sure Tuskegee University 564 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 2: is not happy about. It's called the Tuskegee effect. 565 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 566 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: One of the pieces of datum that I saw that 567 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: really kind of caught my eye was that black men 568 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: in America seeking out professional medical help dropped by twenty 569 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 2: two percent in the four years following when the news 570 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: of this story broke, So it had a pronounced effect. 571 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 3: And in nineteen ninety seven, nineteen ninety seven, so this 572 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 3: is twenty five years after the study was finished, there 573 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 3: was a study that found that thirty two point one 574 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 3: percent of black women surveyed in a study agreed that 575 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 3: scientists were not trustworthy, compared to four point one percent 576 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 3: of white women at the time. 577 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was another thing too, It was the 578 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 2: Tuskegee effect is widely blamed for making containing the AIDS 579 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 2: epidemic in the nineteen eighties and nineties in the black 580 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: community so difficult, And a twenty twenty one study found 581 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: that twenty seven point seven percent of the people the 582 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 2: Black Americans surveyed found that they believed the governments created 583 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: aids to essentially carry out a genocide against Black Americans. Yeah, 584 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: that's the level of distrust that came from Tuskegee. But 585 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: there's a historian who knows all about this, name Susan Reverbie, 586 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 2: and she was on that Distillation podcast episode and she 587 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: essentially said, that's true. But pinning all of this on 588 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: the Tuskegee experiment ignores all of the structural racism that 589 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: it's still going on. 590 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 591 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that has that it's like current and is keeping 592 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: the whole thing fresh in the minds of Black Americans 593 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: because it didn't just happen once and they lost trust. 594 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 2: It happens again and again and again every day essentially 595 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 2: to Black Americans when they seek healthcare in the United States. 596 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, Tuskegee just kind of put a bow on it, 597 00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 3: you know. 598 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 599 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 3: So, of course things changed in the medical community, and 600 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 3: you know, sort of ethics control after this, after nineteen 601 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 3: seventy two, Congress and the National Institutes of Health change 602 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 3: rules of just you know, humans participating in studies and experiments, 603 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 3: obviously requiring informed consent for stuff like that, peer review 604 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 3: of not the results, but the studies design, Like, before 605 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 3: you can even go out and get into this and 606 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 3: launch a study or an experiment like this, it has 607 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 3: to be peer reviewed and okayed. And then in nineteen 608 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 3: seventy four, the National Research Act was signed into law, 609 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 3: resulting in kind of a laundry list of regulations and 610 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 3: standards in the wake of Tuskegee. 611 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 2: What's crazy is this is the seventies and it took 612 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 2: the news of this experiment for the United States to 613 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 2: officially adopt informed consent for medical experiments, despite the Nuremberg 614 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: Code that basically said if you're running a medical experiment 615 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 2: anywhere in the world, your patients need to be fully 616 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 2: informed and give informed consent in nineteen forty seven. So 617 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 2: I just found that awful that it took so long 618 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 2: for the US to formally adopt that. 619 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think this wasn't like the norm 620 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 3: because doctors, you know, most times had ethics when shooing 621 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 3: the experiments and inform consent was a thing. But yeah, 622 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 3: to codify it like that and taking that long is 623 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 3: just you know, outrageous. 624 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: It also, I guess created a subsequent report in nineteen 625 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: seventy nine called the Belmont Report that said, there are 626 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 2: three things you need to do if you're carrying out 627 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 2: a medical experiment involving humans. You have to have respect 628 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: for the people involved. You have to show beneficence, which 629 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: is essentially like you need to go beyond the basic 630 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 2: minimum requirements of making sure these people are protected and 631 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 2: actually exert some sort of kindness even like go way 632 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 2: beyond that. And then justice equality and treatment equality and 633 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: including participants equality and distributing the results of the stuff 634 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 2: and the fruits of these studies. So those things got 635 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 2: adopted as well, but not until nineteen ninety five, sixteen 636 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 2: years after the report. 637 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 3: Yeah. Ninety five was also when President Clinton ordered, you know, 638 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 3: sort of a slew of presidential committees on bioethics and 639 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 3: how things were done. So yeah, a long long time 640 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 3: after it ended, we promised talk of Guatemala because a 641 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 3: very similar and worse thing happened in Guatemala in nineteen 642 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 3: forty six, forty seven, and forty eight when the United 643 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 3: States government funded medical research which did not study untreated 644 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 3: syphilis in Guatemalans, they deliberately exposed and infected Guatemalan soldiers, prisoners, 645 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 3: sex workers, mental patients with syphilis. I feel like we've 646 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 3: talked about this before, it seems at some point, but 647 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 3: it's horrific how they went about this. 648 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, three of these patients died. Only seven hundred of 649 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 2: them received even some sort of minimal treatment. And the 650 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 2: guy that I said you could argue is evil who 651 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 2: was involved in the Tuskegee experiment was the guy who 652 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 2: ran this, doctor John Charles Cutler. He ran it from 653 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 2: nineteen forty six to nineteen forty eight. This was not 654 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 2: the first experiment like this. He also would run stuff 655 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: like this in prisons as a fresh face student just 656 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: out of graduate school. So he and he's also the 657 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 2: one who in nineteen ninety three defended the whole Tuskegee 658 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 2: experiment by saying like, yeah, you couldn't give penasilis people 659 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 2: had ruined the study. 660 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and he gave people syphilis by injecting it, sometimes 661 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 3: into their eyes. He would infect sex workers by infecting 662 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 3: cotton swabs and then inserting them into their you know, 663 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 3: sex organs, and then sometimes ordering them to have sex 664 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 3: with men to see how it you know, how it transferred, 665 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 3: how easily it transferred. 666 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 2: Yep. So we said that structural racism still exists in healthcare. 667 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 2: And I've got one last stat that kind of drives 668 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 2: us home. There was a twenty twenty study of emergency 669 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 2: rooms in Oregon and they found that even though black 670 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 2: patients who went seeking help to an emergency room had 671 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: completed pain scores about at the same rate as the 672 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 2: black patients who went to these same emergency rooms, the 673 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 2: doctors decided that only fourteen percent of these black patients 674 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 2: deserve pain meds compared to twenty percent of white patients. 675 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 2: So it's still going on today, and we still have 676 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 2: a very long way to go. And I feel like 677 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 2: as long as we keep talking about the Tuskegee experiment, 678 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 2: hopefully it'll bring us a little bit closer, a little 679 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 2: bit closer, because here in the United States, we don't 680 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 2: like to do things the right way quickly. It takes 681 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 2: us a very long time sometimes. 682 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I you know, I'm not getting on a soapbox, 683 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 3: but it's important to tell theselories now because stories like 684 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 3: this are actively being scrubbed from places like the Smithsonian, 685 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 3: and it's not you know, you can't ignore your negative 686 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 3: history as a country and learn anything about your future 687 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 3: as a country. 688 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: For sure, we should put that on a T shirt. 689 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 3: Chuck, that's a little little wordy. 690 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 2: Well, Chuck just gave us a great new T shirt 691 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 2: idea everybody, whether he likes it or not. So that 692 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 2: means it's time for a listener mail. 693 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 3: You know what, let's not do listener mail. We haven't 694 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 3: done this since I feel like the early years. I 695 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 3: feel like we should put out a call to help 696 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 3: grow our show a little bit. We've just kind of 697 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 3: been on coast forever as far as like saying, hey, like, 698 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 3: tell your friends about this, but let's do this, and 699 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 3: you tell me if you approve, and if not, we'll 700 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 3: just erase all this. Okay, But I charge every listener 701 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 3: who loves stuff you should know, tell find your favorite 702 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 3: episode ever, whether it's Ballpoint Pins or The Uppets or 703 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 3: the time the Nazis invaded Florida. dB Cooper, dB Cooper, Like, 704 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 3: whatever your favorite stuff you should know episode is, and 705 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 3: send it to three friends and say, hey, check the 706 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 3: show out. I think you'll I think you'll like it, 707 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 3: and that would help us out. We're always looking to, 708 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 3: you know, grow the show and expand to new audiences 709 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 3: who have never heard of us even after seventeen years, 710 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 3: so it really helps us out and we would really 711 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 3: appreciate it. 712 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 2: Very nice, Chuck. I think that was great. I don't 713 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 2: object to that at all. 714 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: Fantastic. 715 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 2: Well, like Chuck said, go forth and spread the gospel 716 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 2: of Stuff you Should Know. And in the meantime, if 717 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 2: you want to send us an email, you can send 718 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 2: it off to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 719 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,959 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 720 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 3: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit 721 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 722 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.