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Speaker 1: All the Unpluggers Forgotten Season.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to another episode of Forgotten Seasons. This is

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Speaker 2: your host, Dylan Dreyfus. Today, we got a guy in

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Speaker 2: a team that I have been shooting for for a while,

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Speaker 2: Kenyon Martin on the two thousand and two Eastern Conference

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Speaker 2: champion New Jersey nets there's no other way to start

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Speaker 2: telling the story of this season than in July of

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Speaker 2: two thousand and one, Jason Kidd comes into New Jersey

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Speaker 2: traded force to Fawn Marbury. Kid, at twenty eight years old,

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Speaker 2: is in the absolute prime of his career and immediately

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Speaker 2: turns the tide in New Jersey. He leads them to

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Speaker 2: the number one seed in the East, the number one

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Speaker 2: defense in the league, finishes number two in MVP voting.

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Speaker 2: To Tim Duncan, I don't think you can understate just

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Speaker 2: how good Jason Kidd was at this time. Not only

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Speaker 2: is he far and away the best point guard in

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Speaker 2: the league, but arguably one of the best two way

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Speaker 2: players in the entire league. Supporting cast starting with kmart

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Speaker 2: this is year number two for him, number one pick

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Speaker 2: in the two thousand draft, Cam mart and Jki are

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Speaker 2: are flat out just one of the best lob connections

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Speaker 2: maybe ever, but the headlines surrounding Martin this season are

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Speaker 2: not that lob connection, his ferocious defense, or anything like that. Instead,

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Speaker 2: it is his out of control play style, dubbed by

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Speaker 2: many as detrimental to the team. Over the course of

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Speaker 2: the season, he picks up six flagrant fouls, gets suspended

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Speaker 2: for five games. Those fouls include him really just clocking

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Speaker 2: guys like Carl Malone, Tracy McGrady. But you'll hear from

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Speaker 2: kmart he wasn't concerned with any of that noise. He

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Speaker 2: was never going to change his play style and who

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Speaker 2: he was rounding out that supporting cast. We got Kerry Kittles,

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Speaker 2: we got Keith van Horne, we got a rookie, Richard Jefferson.

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Speaker 2: And despite being dubbed a fringe playoff team heading into

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Speaker 2: the year, the Nets finish as the number one seed

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Speaker 2: in the East in the playoffs. They take care of

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Speaker 2: Indiana in five games in round one, do or Die,

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Speaker 2: Game five, double overtime, one of the craziest games of

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Speaker 2: that decade. Definitely go back and rewatch that if you

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Speaker 2: haven't seen it. They then take on Charlotte Baron Davis

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Speaker 2: lead no Jamal Mashburn the series. The Nets take care

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Speaker 2: of business in five and then conference finals Paul Pierce,

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Speaker 2: Antoine Walker Celtics Nets advanced in six games, setting up

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Speaker 2: a finals matchup against the defending back to back champion

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles Lakers. Not much else needs to be said

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Speaker 2: chat Kobe Sweep. You'll hear Kmart talk about what it

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Speaker 2: was like just matching up against those two monsters. In short,

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Speaker 2: pretty much impossible reminder to drop a rating and a

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Speaker 2: review on the pod. We're gonna jump into it now.

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Speaker 2: Forgotten Seasons with Kenyan Martin on the two thousand and

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Speaker 2: two Nets begins right now. Kenya Martin, how you doing today?

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Speaker 1: Many?

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Speaker 2: Hey, I can't complain, you know, talking to you about

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Speaker 2: the two thousand and two nets, Like I said at

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Speaker 2: Fan Favorite, So I'm excited to get.

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Speaker 1: Into this one.

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Speaker 2: Let's get it.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: I think first to start kind of payting the picture

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Speaker 2: of you and how you played on the court, because

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Speaker 2: what I loved reading about this season and you you

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Speaker 2: coming into the league is that you knew exactly who

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Speaker 2: you were and you were never gonna waiver. You brought

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Speaker 2: that toughness to New Jersey right away. But I think

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Speaker 2: even before your NBA career where it started. Is your upbringing.

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Speaker 2: You were born in Saginaw, Michigan. You lived in Dallas

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Speaker 2: for a lot of your your your later years, but

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Speaker 2: born in Saginaw. Grandma was a big Pistons fan. She

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Speaker 2: had you in front of the TV watching the Pistons

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Speaker 2: and at that time that's the height of the bad

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Speaker 2: boys era, and watching you play, there's no denying that

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Speaker 2: you brought that bad boy energy to the court. Can

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Speaker 2: you just talk a little bit about how your early

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Speaker 2: memories of watching the Pistons with Grandma kind of shaped

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Speaker 2: who you were on the basketball court.

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Speaker 3: Now, it's just how they played and everybody was Lakers,

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Speaker 3: Davis Bulls that sale to experience and just being from

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Speaker 3: Michigan had the Pistons and they style of play was

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Speaker 3: was different than other teams. And then growing up in

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Speaker 3: Dallas and playing at the rec Center and all that,

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Speaker 3: going up in the environment I.

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Speaker 1: Grew up in, it fit that style of play.

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Speaker 3: So me seeing guys get hard fouled and guys fighting

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Speaker 3: after a foul call and what all that, that's what

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Speaker 3: I saw growing up on the floor with the Pistons.

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Speaker 3: Then that's what I saw when I started really playing

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Speaker 3: after the age of ten. That's what I saw, and

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Speaker 3: that's just what I gravitated towards that style of playing,

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Speaker 3: that that hard nose way to approach the game and

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Speaker 3: just never.

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Speaker 2: Waited, never waivered. This is also the year where you're

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Speaker 2: on the cover Sports Illustrated with bad Boy on the

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Speaker 2: on the cover. Did that Did that title come from

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Speaker 2: you being a fan of the Pistons, Like, did you

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Speaker 2: present down with that or did they just kind.

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Speaker 3: Of not as that was all them, that was all them,

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Speaker 3: just from on floor things that was going on, and

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Speaker 3: and people knew where my tattoo on my chest sat

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Speaker 3: and said badass Yellow Boys, So so they just ain't

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Speaker 3: with it. And from what I'm gathering this that's one

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Speaker 3: of the most popular Sports Illustrated covers for a while,

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Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: So it's it was dope.

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Speaker 3: It was dope coming into that season being on Sports Illustrated,

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Speaker 3: being on the cover, slam, being on on everybody's radar,

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Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. For my for the way

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Speaker 3: I approached the game and the way I played the game,

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Speaker 3: it was over the top sometimes for some people, but

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Speaker 3: that's who I was, and that's That's why I made

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Speaker 3: my name for myself, just the way the game went

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Speaker 3: for me. Man, I played with the hedge, I played

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Speaker 3: with my emotions on my sleeves, and the consequences of

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Speaker 3: being suspended and finding all that getn't registered me, you know,

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Speaker 3: because I was, like we said in the beginning, I

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Speaker 3: was just gonna be me no matter.

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Speaker 2: What, never waivered, and I think there's power to that,

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Speaker 2: Like your teammates clearly picked that up to a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Obviously.

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Speaker 2: The store line of the the O one O two

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Speaker 2: season going into it is Marborie getting traded for Jake Kid.

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Speaker 2: I remember you saying you were at the Rucker when

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Speaker 2: you heard the news when your boys kind of tapped

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Speaker 2: you on the shoulder said, you know, Marbury's gone, Jake

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Speaker 2: kids in. What was your first reaction to hearing that?

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Speaker 1: Just some love, like one word probably as wow.

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Speaker 3: Me me being in Dallas when j Kidd went to

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Speaker 3: the Mavericks, Me seeing his rookie year and therefore her

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Speaker 3: own him winning Cole Rookie other Cole Rookie of the

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Speaker 3: Year with Grant Hill that year. No, it was just

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Speaker 3: I was always a fan and seeing the way he

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Speaker 3: played and the way he how fast he played, and

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Speaker 3: this his ability to pass the.

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Speaker 1: Ball man was was intriguing to me.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things I never thought I'd get

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Speaker 3: to do in my career was one of his players

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Speaker 3: play against Michael Jordan and played with Jason Kidd, and

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Speaker 3: it happened in the same year. Man, know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 3: but no, heaving j Kid. Man, I just knew it

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Speaker 3: was the way I played. I just knew it was

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Speaker 3: gonna be something special. I didn't know it was gonna

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Speaker 3: work out that well that soon, but I knew we

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Speaker 3: was gonna have.

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Speaker 2: You definitely had something. Did that. I mean, there's no

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Speaker 2: denying that you and j Kid probably one of the

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Speaker 2: best lob combinations ever. Did that that connection take any

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Speaker 2: time to former? Was there any talk on how to

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Speaker 2: play off each other. It was really just like an field.

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Speaker 3: It was the on court reads in the field, like

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Speaker 3: he used to throw the ball in places. Man that

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Speaker 3: it was pretty respect to the opposition because he knew

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Speaker 3: I'd go get it and if I couldn't back and

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna come down with it. So he trusted me

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Speaker 3: to make it look my ability and if he turned

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Speaker 3: it off, he turned it over.

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Speaker 1: So it was just either can't go.

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Speaker 3: Get it or nobody get it, because he knew that

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Speaker 3: my competitive nature and my athleticism that I got and

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Speaker 3: I had an advantage over a lot of guys. So

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Speaker 3: it was one of the things man like he's from

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Speaker 3: the Bay Area, growing up around gave Payton.

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Speaker 1: Gaby a little older, but me growing up a big.

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Speaker 3: Time Sean Kim fin like, it was that Like it

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Speaker 3: was that for me, So we never it was never

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Speaker 3: a discussion.

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Speaker 1: I don't believe.

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Speaker 3: Man, it was just going out there we same way,

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Speaker 3: offensively and defensive like that's just what it was.

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Speaker 1: Like. We're all over the place home both fans of

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Speaker 1: the floor.

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Speaker 3: And everybody else'll follow, Like, how can you have two

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Speaker 3: guys out there going that hard and defensively and offensively

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Speaker 3: and you're not buying too.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. It's crazy that you never made an

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Speaker 2: All defense team. I think people forget that you're one

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Speaker 2: of the originators of really positionless defense. You're getting to

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Speaker 2: throw it on Jermaine O'Neil one night, then they're putting

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Speaker 2: you on Paul Pierce, You're going on Reggie Miller in

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Speaker 2: crunch time, and this year you guys are number one

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Speaker 2: in defense, coming from twenty third in defense the year before.

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Speaker 2: So I think everybody when they think about Jay Kid

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Speaker 2: and you, probably the first thing that comes to mind

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Speaker 2: is those lobs. But I don't think people realize, like,

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Speaker 2: on the defense side of the ball, you and J

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Speaker 2: Kidd big man guard duos like not many, not many ever.

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Speaker 1: Better than that.

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Speaker 2: I also noticed just watching you guys play back, you

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Speaker 2: guys ran a lot of like full court trap press

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Speaker 2: type stuff. Can you just talk about like the philosophy

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Speaker 2: of the next defense?

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Speaker 1: Back then?

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Speaker 2: With you and J Kid at the helm.

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Speaker 1: Just running around, this is all he was like.

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Speaker 3: If you look at him, J King could be guarding

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Speaker 3: Regie one of the best shoots of this time, or

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Speaker 3: Ray Hall and whoever it is that he wrot me.

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Speaker 3: He's not just guarden him, he's helping. He's guarding him,

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Speaker 3: but he's helping. He's talking. He's in the passing range

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Speaker 3: here and I'm the same way. So I'm always talking.

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Speaker 3: He's always talking. So we just worked and defensively, man,

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Speaker 3: it was until we took pride in, Like you know,

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Speaker 3: I've always taken pride in and having somebody like minded

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Speaker 3: in that regard and with the schemes, all that that

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Speaker 3: we had with Lawrence Frank, game playing and all that.

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Speaker 3: Like we were hell like we were very prepared each

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Speaker 3: and every game, and high basketball IQ played a part

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Speaker 3: of that, you know. You so not just with the

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Speaker 3: running around and athleticism and all that from everybody. We

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Speaker 3: got to have a high basketball IQ to understand what's

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Speaker 3: going on and to be able to recognize system calls,

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Speaker 3: set out to take teams out of things, you know,

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Speaker 3: give with Arenas telling the story that when they was

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Speaker 3: playing us early in his career, He's like, yo, when

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Speaker 3: this dude calling on our planes, like like we can't

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Speaker 3: run that, Like, no, we can't run that on the players.

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Speaker 3: So it was that it was high basketball IQ and

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Speaker 3: just running around, creating habit, pressing, trapping, playing our little

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Speaker 3: song we called Spider like it was stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: You know, we're all over the place, like Spider got

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Speaker 3: eight legs, so you know it's covered. It's a lot

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Speaker 3: of ground being covered, you know. So Lawrence Frank put

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Speaker 3: a clip together early on where I'm on the left,

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna right wing doing something trapping contesting when it

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Speaker 3: helped in the paint and then I contested the corner three,

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Speaker 3: you know. So it's stuff like that that jk who's

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Speaker 3: the same thing. So it was like we just helped

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Speaker 3: one another out in the regard if he got beat

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Speaker 3: out with there and vice versa, and we all stood

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Speaker 3: the race.

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Speaker 2: I love that spider. That's dope. So that's where it came.

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Speaker 2: You got just eight legs everywhere. That's where the name came.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically yeah, yeah, man, shoot you what can we

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Speaker 1: call it?

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Speaker 3: We're all over the place, got carried killers out there,

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Speaker 3: long arms, athletic, Richard Jefferson, long wrongs, athletic myself, J kidd.

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Speaker 3: Then we just throw whoever had five, be honest, that's

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Speaker 3: dope basketball players.

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Speaker 1: We're very, very high IQ guys.

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Speaker 2: I think that's what it was. I think you mixed

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Speaker 2: that high IQ just with the freakish athleticism and physicality.

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Speaker 2: Uh to me, did you do you remember like a

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Speaker 2: moment or a game or a practice where you it

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Speaker 2: kind of clicked in your mind like okay, damn, Like

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Speaker 2: you know we're really good because you start you start

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Speaker 2: this year seven and one. But if you recall, like

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Speaker 2: going into the season, what everybody's saying is that you

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Speaker 2: know it's Milwaukee it's Philly. Uh even Orlando if they

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Speaker 2: think they think Orlando's gonna be really good with t

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Speaker 2: Mac and Grant Hill supposedly coming back healthy. So you

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Speaker 2: guys are basically dubbed as like a fringe playoff team.

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Speaker 1: Did you won?

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Speaker 2: Did you guys carry that chip on your shoulder like

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Speaker 2: they don't think they're gonna be good? And then two,

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Speaker 2: was there a moment in your in your mind that

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Speaker 2: you remember like okay, like we got something serious going on.

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Speaker 3: Here, nah man, were just hooping like we're coming off

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Speaker 3: and winning twenty six games a year before.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know nothing different, Like we're just hoopy, going

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Speaker 1: down and playing. It was just working.

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Speaker 3: We were going down and we found a way to win,

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Speaker 3: like we had a recipe for winning. We was running

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Speaker 3: the offense that cut a lot of people off guard

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Speaker 3: and like I have of course sece were we're second

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Speaker 3: to nine at the time running a new prints the

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Speaker 3: thing that we was doing with athletes with a better

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Speaker 3: schemes and twists to it, defensively doing what we did, and.

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Speaker 1: We just we were.

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Speaker 3: Imposing our will on people. And we went from twenty

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Speaker 3: six wins but fifty two to that. What I'm saying,

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Speaker 3: so that's a testament to j Kidd coming in myself,

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Speaker 3: having a year under my belt and drafting Richard carry

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Speaker 3: being healthy and us just going like it was.

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Speaker 1: It was that it was just us putting together and

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Speaker 1: not knowing.

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Speaker 3: Men made the playoffs year before, so it was it

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Speaker 3: was foreign it was foreigner. It was foreign to most

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Speaker 3: of the guys. So for us to be in that

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Speaker 3: position come playoff time, and then, I think the answer

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Speaker 3: to that question was probably the answer series that year

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Speaker 3: in the first round, you know, it was still five games.

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Speaker 2: Then, so I wanted I was going to get to

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Speaker 2: that because they were season that's not your regular eight seed.

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Speaker 1: Not at all.

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Speaker 3: They had been together, you know, so they had the

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Speaker 3: injuries whatever they had the year, and for us to

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Speaker 3: to get past them in the first round it was tough.

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Speaker 3: It was tough. I think raggy shot didn't count. But

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Speaker 3: we had all the history playing all that stuff back then,

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Speaker 3: so but to that degree, but nah, man, it was

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Speaker 3: a great series, and I think after that that gave

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Speaker 3: us a lie of confidence, man like us getting through

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Speaker 3: them and that tough team and the way we played.

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Speaker 1: And battled them, and it was it was on from there.

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Speaker 3: It was on from there, and then that year playing

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Speaker 3: the Lakers in the playoffs, man, and in the final.

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Speaker 3: It was but that moment that I thought we were

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Speaker 3: we realized we had some of the India series.

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Speaker 1: What do you remember?

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Speaker 2: I was reading going back, you and JERMAINO. Knew had

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Speaker 2: a lot of history together, the same high school class

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Speaker 2: ninety six, and he's coming off most improved player that year,

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Speaker 2: and he's talking sort of like I think, trying to

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Speaker 2: assert himself as like a dominant force in the league.

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Speaker 2: And of course you're on the other side of that.

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Speaker 2: What do you remember just from that lead up? He

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Speaker 2: goes off in game one and has like thirty but

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Speaker 2: then two through five he's averaging like fourteen, shooting forty percent.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's.

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Speaker 3: You determination, Like, wasn't gonna let it happen again, as

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Speaker 3: I don't know how many seats shot in that game,

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Speaker 3: but no, he had a big game game on. I

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Speaker 3: just took it upawn myself, like, nah, I'm better than that.

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Speaker 3: So the challenge was on from that moment on. You know,

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Speaker 3: every time I played him from that playoff series on, man,

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Speaker 3: it was this is what it's gonna be, you know,

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Speaker 3: And and I think me taking that match up personally

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Speaker 3: helped us.

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Speaker 1: Get past that series.

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Speaker 3: And when you think about it, the final game, they

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Speaker 3: ran an io for him and they had a chance

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Speaker 3: to go up and I stripped him the game, you know,

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Speaker 3: So that was that was my moment of letting him know,

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Speaker 3: like like I'm here that I'm saying Jo was tough. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Jo was giving people fit. Like you said, you're coming

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Speaker 3: out most improved.

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Speaker 2: That whole I think that whole Game five needs like

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Speaker 2: a deep re one because you mentioned the Reggie shot

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Speaker 2: at the end, but he also they're down three, he pumps,

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Speaker 2: gets fouled, then Richard misses the two free throws, and

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Speaker 2: then Reggie comes back and hits the three uh, and

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Speaker 2: then j Kid takes over in second overtime. I read

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Speaker 2: a story about you and Richard. He was he was

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Speaker 2: John at Bonzie Wells during the season in Portland. He

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Speaker 2: was John at Bonzie Wells said like, fuck you Bonzie,

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Speaker 2: and then you came in to mend it, and then

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Speaker 2: he said fuck you km R two and then I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'll let you tell the story. But the story that

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Speaker 2: I read is basically the only reason that Richard Jefferson

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00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 2: is alive is because of Aaron Williams.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I probably wouldn't go kill him, but I definitely

339
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Speaker 3: didn't get to put my hands on the way I

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Speaker 3: wanted to.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, cause I'm trying to look out for you, dude.

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Speaker 1: On the slow we down like they was like they

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Speaker 1: kick an eye ass.

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Speaker 4: After talking ship to Barzi and the ref like I'm

345
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Speaker 4: finna give him tech can tell him to calm down.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, did you come down other than worth it? Like, man,

347
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,360
Speaker 4: fuck you men. So I'm first one in the locker room.

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Speaker 3: As soon as he come in the locker room, I

349
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,000
Speaker 3: died on my I started swinging and grabbed me.

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Speaker 1: Train train was standing there like right by me.

351
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Speaker 3: Then as soon as I started swinging and grabbing me

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Speaker 3: and I got a few off of train, busting my

353
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,960
Speaker 3: lip like grab his showed hit me in my mouth,

354
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Speaker 3: trying to grab me, and I'm like, yo, I told her,

355
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Speaker 3: I said, hey, let you ever grab me again in life?

356
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Speaker 3: Hands down, one of the strongest people I've ever been around.

357
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Speaker 3: So I told her, lot, you never grabbed me again. Man,

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Speaker 3: I don't care what I'm doing, but yeah, no, I mean

359
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Speaker 3: I was just I was that I was wired that way. Man,

360
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 3: I just didn't take no ship for nobody teammates or not.

361
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Speaker 3: So he was he was young, so we understood. So

362
00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 3: we've been We've been great ever since that month.

363
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Speaker 2: Do you think that type of stuff is important? I mean,

364
00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,639
Speaker 2: not like full on fistfights, but do you think it

365
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 2: can be beneficial to good teams to have, you know,

366
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,880
Speaker 2: internal adversity and speak up, speak out against each other.

367
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Speaker 2: Do you think that that builds chemistry?

368
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 1: It came.

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Speaker 3: It depends on It depends on how you are eternally.

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00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 3: It depends on what you're built on. So some of

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Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of guys from my area

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Speaker 3: ain't on. Then before a lot of guys sow the

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00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 3: sensitive you know, they can't stay at criticism or they

374
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,800
Speaker 3: can't stand. They can't do what we did and come

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Speaker 3: back and be ready to play the next game.

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Speaker 1: Mh. Lot of guys can't bounce back from that. But

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Speaker 1: it's what's important. I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: We are well, we are here to do a job

379
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Speaker 3: and are here to win. And whatever I got to

380
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,440
Speaker 3: do to get you to that point, that's what I've

381
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 3: been that way, from high school to college to the prone.

382
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,919
Speaker 1: I didn't change that. So you're not doing what we

383
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: need to do to.

384
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Speaker 3: Win that I got something to say, and if you

385
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 3: got something to say back, then we can get to it.

386
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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

387
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 3: And made the best man win after that. But it

388
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 3: was I think it's good at times. Not with certain guys.

389
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 3: They can handle a certain guy. A lot of guys,

390
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,600
Speaker 3: a lot of guys feelings get involved and they and

391
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Speaker 3: they check out, and I don't want them guys on

392
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Speaker 3: my team.

393
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 1: M hm.

394
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 2: True to that. Uh, you mentioned it earlier, but I

395
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,439
Speaker 2: think this year you had like six flagranfouls suspended for

396
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,719
Speaker 2: five games, and the biggest storyline surrounding you other than

397
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,200
Speaker 2: kind of emerging as this force, all these writers are saying,

398
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,080
Speaker 2: you know, he's a detriment to the team, he's playing

399
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 2: out of control. They're interviewing Byron Scott and you know

400
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 2: front office. Was there ever a time where like somebody

401
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 2: from the team approached you and said you got to

402
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:45,359
Speaker 2: calm down.

403
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 3: Not from the team, but David Stern. Oh so he

404
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 3: reached out. Yeah, yeah, reached out to the team and

405
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 3: they told me David Stern would have to sit down. Yeah,

406
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 3: and they sit down with to get the act together.

407
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 2: I heard he doesn't fight. I heard he doesn't funk

408
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,600
Speaker 2: around the last.

409
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 1: Name is it didn't.

410
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 3: If it was a definition, look up, it's him like Stern,

411
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 3: like didn't didn't bullshit like no, it was like no

412
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 3: fond lege basically at times.

413
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 1: But I got it, understood what he said.

414
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,919
Speaker 3: And yeah, because that year, like you said the five games,

415
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,360
Speaker 3: it was, I think it was the two games.

416
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,880
Speaker 1: For the Tracy fight. Maybe three games for the Kory

417
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 1: magett It fight.

418
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 3: Uh. Yeah, I lost three hundred and fifty thousand that

419
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 3: year and fines you said, a few flagors. Yeah, so

420
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 3: it was it was like I said, borderline for some people,

421
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 3: over the top for some and not enough for others.

422
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 3: But it's just who I was, man, and it and

423
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 3: it may put the league on the work like like

424
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 3: h whatever, whatever mean whatever it is.

425
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 1: It is.

426
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 3: So I wasn't thought out, wasn't wasn't playing. It just

427
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,640
Speaker 3: happened organically, and that's the way I played the game.

428
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 1: Man. It wasn't like this year, I'm gonna go out

429
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna.

430
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 3: Have two fights and I'm gonna I'm gonna have six

431
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 3: flagers and I wanted to get a lead back over

432
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 3: a quarter million dollars, Like no, they wasn't playing, but

433
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 3: it just who I was, man, how I played.

434
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,679
Speaker 1: It just happened, and I wouldn't take you back. Mhm.

435
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 2: I bet there's dudes that you noticed on the floor

436
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 2: like flinching, not looking at you because it was.

437
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah.

438
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 3: A lot of dudes don't the one day worried about

439
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 3: the fine word about suspension and two or they're just

440
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 3: doing with that action mm hmm.

441
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: So and I've always like it didn't. It didn't for

442
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 1: me that respect go along a lot much further than

443
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: that money would facts. So that's yeah.

444
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,199
Speaker 3: So people think I was trying to make people's to

445
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 3: me and I wanted people to fear me and all.

446
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 1: That, Like now you if you respect me, you you.

447
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,160
Speaker 3: You understand what it is, whether it's a fearful respect

448
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 3: or what good whatever it is disrespected.

449
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: So guys knew, and I'm fairy sure it was. It

450
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 1: was listed on the Sky.

451
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 2: Report probably, I would think so. So going back to

452
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 2: the playoffs, you get through Indiana, that's the big test,

453
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 2: five game series. Second round, Charlotte kind of take care

454
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: of them pretty easily in five. It's a good baron

455
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 2: Davis squad though quality team in the East Finals you

456
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: got Boston. You said before that you loved playing against

457
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 2: Boston in the playoffs. Uh, what was it about just

458
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 2: going into the Boston gardens stealing the game from them?

459
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 2: And kind of yeah, what what was it about playing

460
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:47,959
Speaker 2: against Boston that you enjoyed?

461
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 3: I think we we lucked up in the Charlotte series.

462
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 3: They didn't have Jamion Manshur and I think that helped him.

463
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 3: But Boston man historic, historic nature, true of that of

464
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: the left con man. It's it was being able to

465
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 3: play there and and and impose our will on the people.

466
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 2: Your guarden, Your guarden, Pierce, Sam Walker, you know you're

467
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 2: three through.

468
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 3: Five absolutely switching off. But most of the Simon was

469
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 3: on Twying.

470
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 1: Hm. I had success on him doing the regular season

471
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: so offensively and defensive. So that was and he was

472
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 1: a print of the All Star.

473
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 2: So he's putting twenty five shots a game.

474
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 3: Shut that ship down, right, I had that. Yeah, people

475
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 3: talk about game being in their pocket. I like Twying

476
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: as a.

477
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: Person, good guy, but I used to give in Walk

478
00:23:58,359 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: what do you do?

479
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 3: I just realize he was one of the pe is

480
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 3: what I realized rearly on in my career. The NBA

481
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: is built on athleticism, toughness, IQ and all those things.

482
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 3: And if you playing against a guy and the only

483
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 3: box probably trying check greater than me in that regard.

484
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 3: I don't know its IQ, so I can't speak on that,

485
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 3: but probably it's hut.

486
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: That's it I'm saying.

487
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 3: So I realized that hearly, he wasn't the only one.

488
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 3: I just played against him a lot, but he wasn't

489
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 3: the only one who I felt this way about. So

490
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 3: I felt, and I can impose my wheel on it.

491
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 1: Wasn't stronger than me. You wasn't gon bully me.

492
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 3: You're not taller than me, You're not more athletic than me,

493
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 3: can't jump higher. So it's just what is it that

494
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 3: you do. You're not going around me, You're not going

495
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 3: through me, You're not going over me. You got along

496
00:24:58,840 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 3: night at the.

497
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: Office, you were you a big talker.

498
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 3: Now on the floor like not while I'm playing on

499
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 3: the bench. Yeah, when I'm because during during the game,

500
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: I'm so locked into game, playing assignments, rotations, talking, doing

501
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 3: all that stuff that I ain't got unless you start,

502
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 3: you start barking out there, you say something, then yeah

503
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 3: you got my teacher, or if you if you say something.

504
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 3: If I'm on the bench, you say something, I checked

505
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 3: back in and it's still fresh, then yeah, But I

506
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: really didn't talk like that. I was loud, rambunctious to

507
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: pay with emotion and all that. But I wasn't a

508
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 3: big yap because I'm I'm more of an action guy.

509
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: But if you want to talk shit, I could talk

510
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 3: ship with the best and continue to play.

511
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: So that wasn't it. It was just.

512
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 3: I knew that what I needed to be out there

513
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 3: doing and focusing on is the game playing that's trying

514
00:25:59,760 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 3: to win.

515
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: So but no, I didn't. I didn't. Yeah mhm.

516
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 2: So you get through Boston six, Uh, they got that

517
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 2: crazy comeback that was like twenty twenty and one and

518
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: fourth word, but you took our business. Then you got

519
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: the Lakers in the finals. I mean, maybe not much

520
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 2: to say. Really nothing you could have DoD like done

521
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: against them, Like you talked about that one picture of

522
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: Shack dunking on the whole state of New Jersey. That's

523
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: you know, that's there if if you got one one

524
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: moment or what comes to mind first when you just

525
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: think of, you know, two thousand and two finals, Shack

526
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: and Kobe.

527
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: The store, the store. Just look at the numbers. Look

528
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: at Shack's numbers in.

529
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 2: The finals against US thirty six.

530
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's store, right, it was. It was easy for

531
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: like it was. It was. It was real easy what

532
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: I'm saying, It was real easy for you know what

533
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: I'm saying.

534
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 3: So, and we had decisions to make what you want

535
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: to play straight up? You want to doublin, you're doubling,

536
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 3: you got shoot, we got Now we try to We

537
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 3: forced to try to play Kobe one on one. But

538
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: you know how that was. But yeah, so that that's like, yeah,

539
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: it was, it was. It was a tall task for

540
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 3: to ask the team, first year in the finals, first

541
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 3: in the playoffs in a long time, first time in

542
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 3: the finals and a long time. So it's just one

543
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 3: of them things, like it's just one of them things

544
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 3: that we we Yeah, it's just one of the things

545
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 3: that we were We were new to it, not experienced

546
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 3: enough to compete all the way.

547
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: But we showed up there, you know what I'm saying.

548
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: We showed up and.

549
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 3: And they just hey, they were better than us, you know,

550
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: I know, no way to put it, you know what

551
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: I'm saying.

552
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: Did you did you notice so after.

553
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 2: After this that's kind of when the relationship between them

554
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: kind of starts to deteriorate. Like, what did you notice

555
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: just on the court between them, was it at that time?

556
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: Is it Kobe's team or is it still Shacks team?

557
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 3: Any team Shaq was on, I don't care who else

558
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 3: is on it, because you had the game plan around

559
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: Shaquill on me, so I don't care who else you got.

560
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: You got a game plan around Saquila. That is what

561
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: it is.

562
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: Like, Like I said, didn't nobody ever got Shack? Father

563
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 3: Time guarded Shack Like father Time is the only person

564
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 3: that guarded Shack. So you got a game plan around that.

565
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 3: Cleveland Shaq don't count that that, Phoenix Shack don't count that,

566
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: Boston Shack don't count.

567
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: Mother Shacks. Yeah Hack mhm.

568
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: So coming off of this, you go back to the

569
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: finals and know three lose to the Spurs, and then

570
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 2: that's it for you in New Jersey. I know your

571
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: initial reactions to the trade didn't like it. I don't

572
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: think it made much sense at the time. I still

573
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: don't think it made much sense when you look at

574
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: those later two thousands two Jersey teams, Like with Vince,

575
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: the whole was always you know who's playing the four

576
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: and who's playing the five. There was really nobody. Uh

577
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: you think if you're there with Vince, you guys go

578
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: back to the finals.

579
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: That we win it.

580
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 3: Now, no doubt in my mind. Like the way the

581
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: league was going and how we played like they needed,

582
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: Like I said, they needed Vince to feel, to try

583
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: to feel the void that I left. They needed that.

584
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 3: So but you you keep me there and you bring

585
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: him in, or you make another move at the five

586
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 3: somebody younger, more athletic probably, And yeah, but it's yeah,

587
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 3: no doubt in my mind. Man, we if I don't

588
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: leave New Jersey, we have a championship, no doubt in

589
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 3: my mind, no doubt in my mind, we have a champione.

590
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: I agree.

591
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: I mean, oh four people forget you know, you're a

592
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: game away from beating the eventual champs in Detroit.

593
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, what was the what was the ration? What

594
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: was the rationale they gave you?

595
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 2: Was it just was it just money?

596
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 3: No new ownership? God, Bruce Rantner, he was a majority owner.

597
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 3: It was fifty him forty nine percent of the group.

598
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: And he didn't want us to sign me.

599
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: He just didn't. He didn't think signing somebody for that

600
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: much was necessary.

601
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: I guess I never talked to the team, They never

602
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 3: called an offer me a contract, so I don't know

603
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: what the rationale was mine.

604
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: M hmm. That's crazy this decision they made. Obviously it

605
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: was the wrong.

606
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: Obviously the wrong one. Uh just closing out, wrapping up.

607
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 2: When you look back like two o three, is that

608
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: the those Is that the highlight of your basketball career?

609
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: Going to back to back finals? Yeah?

610
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 3: I think so, making it to back to back finals,

611
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 3: making the All Star appearance that led to me being

612
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 3: able to sign the contract that I signed. Yeah, So

613
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 3: I think those those couple of years as far as

614
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 3: basketball was, was the highlight of it. I'm going to

615
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 3: Denver making it to one finals, being co again was

616
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: great and all that, man, but an Yeah, I think

617
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 3: that was the highlight those that couple of year around

618
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: being able to play against Reggie Miller, Jermaine O'Neill and

619
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 3: then some.

620
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: Of the greats man that from my era that we

621
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: played in the playoffs.

622
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: During that time was great. What I'm saying, So I

623
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 3: take nothing from that time. I wish we could have

624
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: won it, but it wasn't in the making. But no,

625
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: I don't look in my career as because we didn't win.

626
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: I didn't win anything. That great career.

627
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: That couple of year round was a maximum.

628
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: I agree, and I don't think, you know, I don't

629
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 2: think anybody should look at that way. And still, like

630
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: I said, like twenty years later, people in New Jersey

631
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 2: like those That's what's so dear to them is that

632
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: two year and they obviously lost the team. It's in

633
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: Brooklyn now but not really the same. So the people

634
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: love it, and I appreciate your time, man, So thank

635
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: you appreciate. That's a wrap, Kenyan Martin on the two

636
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: thousand and two Nets. We will be back next week

637
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: with a fresh episode. Reminder, please drop a rating and

638
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: review on the podcast. We really appreciate it. Catch you

639
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: next week. Be easy,