1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People did 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: Cool Stuff. You're a weekly reminder that Wednesday comes after Monday, 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: and so if this part came after the first part. 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Marta Kiljoy and my guest is James. 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: It's down. Hi, Hi, James, Hi, lovely to be here. 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: We were just talking about Wallace and Grommitt because we 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: are terrible people and know nothing about England except Wallace 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: and Grommit. 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 2: And it's a good we we we're wre It's some 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 2: Gromit respects over here. It's a high point of British 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 2: culture imperialism. 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: I think I. 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: Haven't watched since I was a kid, but I didn't 14 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: think there's anything problematic, Like. 15 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, probably the achieved that penguin. I'm not sure. Yeah, 16 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: maybe they did not kind to the to the sheep. 17 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: Who knows, but also not problematic. It's Sophie Hi, Sophiehi. 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: And our audio engineer is Daniel Hi. Danel Hi, Danille Hi, Daniel. 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: Our theme music was written for us by unwoman. And 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: if we seem a little distracted, it's because some shit's 21 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: happening right now as we record that we don't know 22 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: what's going to happen, but we're not going to tell 23 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: you what it is because you're you live in the 24 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: future and either nothing happened last week or lots of 25 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: stuff happened last week. Anyway, This is part two of 26 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:31,199 Speaker 1: a four parter about Operation Nemesis and Armenian resistance to genocide. 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: And when we last left our heroes they were like, 28 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: we don't like this. What do you mean the first 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: Armenian genocide. That's a terrible name for a thing that's 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: happening to us. What are you getting at Because spoiler alert, 31 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: it's going to get worse than twenty years. But it's 32 00:01:49,120 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties and the Sultan wants to simplify his kingdom. 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: The Sultan has overseen wide scale massacre of Armenian populations 34 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: and they organize to do something about it. They started 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: defending themselves by setting up Friend of the Pod revolutionary 36 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: socialist organizations that were unabashedly into terrorism. I didn't set 37 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: out to have be a friend of the Pod, but 38 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: it is a thing that people have hit upon a 39 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: lot in life. When you're in the middle of being 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: mass murdered, is to resist by the means that are available. To. 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it does work. It's it's one of the few 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: ways to not get mass murdered or it to minimize 43 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: the mass murdering. 44 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, well we don't really have an ab we 45 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: can't like scientific death at history. But oh, that would 46 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: be dark. Oh I would totally watch a TV show 47 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: where people anyway whatever, like once we invent time machines 48 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: and we just destroy them all. I'm a little bit 49 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: off track. I love this. I love this. 50 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: That would be a great podcast. Marga goes back in time. 51 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: She has five Kalashni coughs. Who will she give them to? 52 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and two boats put in the boat. Yeah, you're 53 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,839 Speaker 1: the Marines now. Because Armenian resistance culture has always been 54 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: well historically was actually pretty interestingly leftist and anti authoritarian. 55 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: This goes back a long time, back to future friend 56 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: of the pod, the Polician who's I'll know how to 57 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: pronounce their name by the time I talk about them. 58 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: More Christian rebels of the seventh century who revolted against feudalism, 59 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: the superstitions of the church, and the oppression of women 60 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: by men, which is pretty early to start having a 61 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: revolt for those things. 62 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: Yet into it, I'd love to see that. Yeah, I'm 63 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: excited to learn more about them one day. 64 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll build a time machine and we'll give 65 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: them collestional coughs and see what happens. Sick. Probably it'll 66 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: be that if you take the most ardent revolutionary and 67 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: give them a koalestion of cough within a month, or 68 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: worse than the Zar himself, but you know whatever. Fast 69 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: forward back to the eighteen nineties and these early Armenian 70 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: nationalist movements. They start off honestly pretty cool as far 71 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: as I can tell. They're really into forming a secular 72 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: democracy that doesn't discriminate regardless of ethnicity, gender, or immigration status. 73 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: Like specifically, they're like, hey, it doesn't matter whether or 74 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: not you're born here, Like, we want everyone to be 75 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: treated the same. This is far better than modern quote 76 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: unquote democracies. Yeah, including this one. Yeah. The most famous 77 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: of these organizations doesn't get called ARF, and that is 78 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: a shame. It's the Armenian Revolutionary Federation or ARF. They're 79 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: mostly called mostly called toshnog. 80 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: Okay, also cool wood, fun wood to say, no, that's true, 81 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: good bad name, that's true. 82 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,559 Speaker 1: ARF is just fun. Because I'm a terrible person. The fighter. 83 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: They were mostly called toshnog their fighters are called Tashnog's 84 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: and arf was started by mixture of anarchists, socialists, and nationalists, 85 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: which is a ow the kind of thing only the 86 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: nineteenth century is providing. Yeah yeah, yeah, or probably the 87 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: twenty first century. Yay, but we'll know better this time 88 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: and it'll be worse. They desire to create a quote 89 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: libertarian socialist society in Armenia with freedom of religion and 90 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,239 Speaker 1: speech and assembly and all that shit. They were founded 91 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: by folks in a blurry space between socialism, anarchism, and nationalism. 92 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: Like it was less like I'm an anarchist and I'm 93 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: joining this, I'm a socialist, I'm a nationalist. It was 94 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: like a little a little stew you know. Yeah. 95 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: I think that was probably a lot more common back then, 96 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,119 Speaker 2: Like we see that a lot of other movements around 97 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: the turn of the twentieth century. Right, Yeah, you don't 98 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 2: have to like have a flag in your bio. You 99 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: can just be a person who has heterodox beliefs taken 100 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: from different sources. 101 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Now I'm like imagining what their flag. Anyway, 102 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 1: they probably had a flag, and they also the founders 103 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: this cut their teeth as part of the Russian nihilists. 104 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: They were like just part of the people run around 105 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: trying to explode the czar or I think that this 106 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: was people's will who are a little bit distinct but 107 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: are not I don't know, whatever the blurry speaking of 108 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: a stew of revolutionary terrorists, that's where they come from, 109 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: the stew of revolutionary terrorists in Russia. The arf is 110 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: still around somewhere along the way. They got shitty, at 111 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: least according to an Armenian that I talked to, they 112 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: started leaning way more into the nationalism and like homophobia 113 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: and like pure bloodlines and if you're not the right 114 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: kind of Christian you're bad, they know, and less on 115 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: the socialism and not at all in the anarchism these days. 116 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: I think that this shift started happening in the twentieth century, 117 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: probably in the interwar period, like shortly after the events 118 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about this week and next week, 119 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: but I couldn't promise you. But in the meantime, before 120 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: they became reactionaries, they started off really cool. I think, 121 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: as justus as I can figure, they did cool stuff. 122 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: And there's a bunch of other groups as well, including 123 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: one that's like more properly Marxist, but they're less woven 124 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: into this particular story. And so these groups they just 125 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: went around defending Armenian people, and they did that by 126 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: killing collaborators and spies and dumping their bodies on the 127 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: streets with like notes attached to them being like, shouldn't 128 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: a snitch, motherfucker. I don't know what the notes said. 129 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: The notes said, do you know, shouldn't snitch? Motherfucker? Yeah, 130 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: And they raised money for their cause by kidnapping wealthy 131 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: Armenians and holding them for ransom. Okay, impressive, real Robin 132 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: hood vibes. Yeah. And their other big thing that they 133 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: were into was handing out illegal firearms to villagers so 134 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: that people could themselves defend themselves from me. Yeah. Yeah. 135 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: Every time they get a little bit cooler, I know. Okay, 136 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: and then here's where they either peak cool or start 137 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: going bad. Who knows. If you just read about it 138 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: and out of context, it's kind of like neat flavoring 139 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: because they are these anarchist socialist nationalists, Christian Holy Army 140 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: fighting for a secular state in gender equality through gorilla 141 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: campaigns and terrorism. But they are like also into all 142 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: this religious iconography even though they're fighting for a secular state. 143 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: The volunteer fighters take on a name that means devotee. 144 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: Some workers for the party were called apostles, and the 145 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: gorilla fighters in the hills were called martyrs for the 146 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: cause because they weren't expected to survive. Interesting, Yeah, I. 147 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: Get lots of and I'm thinking specifically of the Kurdish 148 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: freedom gorillas, So you use their culture of martyrdom is 149 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 2: very developed there. 150 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, like outside of a religious context. Yeah, and this 151 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: is like within a religious context but also within a 152 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: pro secular Yeah. 153 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: That's reading like, yeah, they're religious, but they're not like 154 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: a theocrat. 155 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a culturally religious thing. Again, the best 156 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: I can read about this, you know, and the word 157 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: for their actions like what we would call like an 158 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: action or a direct action or a military campaign or 159 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: something they would call a holy task. Oh wow, the 160 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: holy work. I don't know. I like, I just like 161 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: the idea of this like holy work of ensuring religious freedom, 162 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: including freedom from religion. Yeah, I can appreciate that. And 163 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: then before they would go into battle, priests would come 164 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: out and bless them. But despite this resistance, Muslim violence 165 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: against the Christians continued, and it's like, again, we can't 166 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: ab test. It's possible that this was not as complete 167 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: because of this culture of resistance. We do know that 168 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: ARF was incredibly influential, but the massacre of Armenians, the 169 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: culture of massacre continues. They are especially priests, get it. 170 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: I think this is when they start crucifying everyone. It's like, 171 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get into the specific examples because I'm 172 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: gonna do it later when we talk about the genocide 173 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, but it feels necessary, so I'm not 174 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: gonna do it this time. So, but it's bad, It's 175 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: really bad. And so the ARF and the other groups 176 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: are like, well, how the fuck do we get the 177 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: world to know about what we're facing? And this is 178 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: a major problem that Armenians continue to face to this day. Yeah, 179 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: and so they're like, well, why don't we go raid 180 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: and occupy a huge bank that's owned by the Westerners, 181 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: the Imperial Bank Ottoman. Okay, love this, yeah, no, this 182 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: is watching a movie about all of this. In eighteen 183 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: ninety six, they do just that. Two dozen Tashnag fighters 184 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: run into the bank, throwing bombs, they shoot and kill 185 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: a guard, they get hostages, like dozens of hostages, and 186 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: they occupy the building, and they go through the building 187 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: and they put dynamite on every floor so that like 188 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: if someone fucks with them, that they're all going out. Yeah, 189 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: the early mutually issued destruction. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 190 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: I love this era because, like the I feel like, 191 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: at no point, possibly we're approaching another point where this 192 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 2: will be the case again, has the state and just 193 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: like random groups of people motivated by whatever been like 194 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: roughly at a par in terms of their capacity to 195 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: do violence, right, Like, everyone has fucking dynamite. People are 196 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: getting maxim guns, you know, like, yeah, there's nothing the 197 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 2: cops have that you don't. There's no Apache helicopter to 198 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: come after you. 199 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: No, that's a good point. Although there is artillery involved 200 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: in this story, but I mean soon enough, there's artillery 201 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:44,599 Speaker 1: in all sides, right, yeah, it's just a tube. Yeah. 202 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: And so the Sultan is like, well, it's not my 203 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: fucking bank. I'll just kill you all. Fuck the hostages. 204 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna kill everyone. But the Western forces that 205 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: are like kind of occupying this place already because they 206 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: have so many economic interests, they tell the Sultan they 207 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: point guns at the Sultan's palace and they are like, 208 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: if you blow up our bank, we will level the 209 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: palace of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. It's when 210 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, capitalism done taken out of the yeah, exactly. 211 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: And so this three way standoff. One of the arf 212 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: guys was this twenty four year old who went by 213 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: the name of Arman Garo and he's later going to 214 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: become one of the masterminds of Operation Nemesis and like 215 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: a big important, like Armenian politician, and we'll talk about 216 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: him a bunch. He was born into a wealthy family 217 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: and he had been studying abroad in France when he 218 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: learned about how Armenians were being treated back home and 219 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: he was like, not fuck that, and he volunteered to 220 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: fight and he didn't show up and like I'm in charge. 221 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: He actually the actual military commander of this operation was 222 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: a seventeen year old named Babkinsuni and he was killed 223 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: during the takeover, and so I think Arman wound up 224 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 1: in charge or because he's like so important and immortalized. 225 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: Later I kind of get the sense that maybe they 226 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: were like he was there, so therefore he's in charge. 227 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: Because the later he's in charge of everything, right, post promoted. Yeah, 228 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: but I'm I'm not sure. Maybe he was in charge. 229 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: He ended up negotiating with the Westerners, and the Westerners 230 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: negotiated surrender with the Sultan, and the bank occupiers were 231 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: all whisked away to Europe. Some of them were deported 232 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 1: to Argentina. And the implication is that it did not 233 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: go well for them. They were never heard from again. Okay, 234 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: none of their demands were met. Meanwhile, during the bank occupation, 235 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: Turkish paramilitary is just like angry militia's classic villain of 236 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: the pod. These Islamic students in white turbans with clubs 237 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: filled with nails went around and killed thousands of Armenians 238 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: in the streets of Constantinople. It's like one of those 239 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: things where like, wow, this has happened in Western Europe, 240 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: we would fucking know about this, you know, right. 241 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's done a good They've done a good job 242 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: of like kind of hiding this from most people's knowledge 243 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: of world history. 244 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, but at the moment this did bring the ARF action, 245 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: did bring the whole oppression of the Armenian people into 246 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: the international spotlight. So the AARF saw it as a victory, 247 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: but like kind of in this like god were so 248 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: fucked way where they're like, yeah, hooray, thousands of us 249 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: were going to die anyway, and thousands of us died. 250 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: But people were looking and no, I'm not going to 251 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 1: do an ad transition there as too too. I'm gonna 252 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: get another paragraph before I do it. Can't do it, 253 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: She's podcast enough. Yet after the bank occupation, nothing was 254 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: getting better, and so the ARF was like, well, this 255 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: is the end of the nineteenth century and let's just 256 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: kill the sultan. Yeah, why not go for broke? Yeah, 257 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: much like you can go broke, I mean four broke 258 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: with all of our gambling ads, go gamble. That's always 259 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: a good idea. Wow, wow, thanks Gat, Thanks proud of myself. 260 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: Here they are and we're back, and we were talking 261 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: about assassinating world leaders in history. 262 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: I like you added that that's a special caveat to 263 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: keep us from getting an FBI visit. 264 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And they were like, you know, he's particularly good 265 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: at assassinating world leaders. You know, he's famous for it. 266 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: Who do you think the ARF is gonna call their 267 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: anarchist friends? Yep, yes, I love it. They're like, we 268 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: need to get ourselves some anarchists. It's possible that a 269 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: fuck ten of them were anarchists themselves, and it just 270 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: wasn't noted in the text that I read, you know, 271 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: because the two things. Okay, I have learned that if 272 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: it's not written by a socialist, it leaves out all 273 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: of the left right. And if it was written by socialists, 274 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: it leaves out the anarchists. And if it was written 275 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: by anarchists, it leaves out women. All of them leave 276 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: out women. This is the Margaret rule of history books 277 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: written in the twentieth century. 278 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is true, and you get there are some 279 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: good books on anarchist women in Spain. 280 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, but they had to be written because 281 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: of the twenty the historians the twentieth century, which is okay. 282 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: One of the reasons I'm annoyed is that all of 283 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: the anarchists who were like doing the shit and all 284 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: the revolutionaries who were doing the shit were like, half 285 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: of us are women. We love we're fighting for gender equality. 286 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: Check out, I'm going to name drop all the people 287 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: who are doing all this cool shit. And then the 288 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: like fucking armchair historians of the twentieth century were like 289 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: and then de Rudy single handedly save Spain or whatever. 290 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I often see that de Ruti like single handedly 291 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: like led their resistance to the coup, Like now, I 292 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: see it on social media, and it's just yeah, it's 293 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: a betrayal of everything he would have staid for. 294 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: And so this is a example of both of these 295 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: categories that have been largely left out. But now that 296 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: they have an assassin, they can't leave out the anarchists completely. 297 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: So they went and they got two Belgian anarchists, a 298 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: married couple. You will be shocked to know that I 299 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: don't know the woman's name. I can't find it. Oh god. 300 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: I had to reinsert her based on context, knowing that 301 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: she was absolutely part of this plot and absolutely involved 302 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: because she had to run from the cops in the end. Anyway, 303 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: Margaret is angry at historians. Yeah, it's a story of 304 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 1: that's the free space these days on the Bingo. So 305 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: the narrative is always a Belgian anarchist named Edward Joris 306 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: came and helped them, even though his wife was one 307 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: hundred percent part of the plot. Fuck you history books. 308 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: I know more about Edward, so I'm gonna talk a 309 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: little bit about him. He was a man whose anarchist 310 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: politics led him to believe quite strongly an anti colonial struggle, 311 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: so he was down to get involved. And they all decided, 312 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: let's do a time bomb. Let's do a car time bomb. 313 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: And they called it Operation Dragon because the Armenians they 314 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: are good, solid namers, just classic names. Operation Dragon, operation Nemesis. 315 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: Nemesis is a fantastic one, like you can't go wrong 316 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: with that. No, no, they're yeah Dragon unless they find 317 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,679 Speaker 2: your plans and they pretty much know you're going to 318 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: blow shit up with Operation Dragon. 319 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,919 Speaker 1: I have the word sedition tattooed on my hands, so 320 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: I like to believe that this my speech will somehow 321 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: apply in the court situation. 322 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why Margaret was unforciate, unable to attend January 323 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: to sixth. 324 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: I was so mad that the seditionists. So one of 325 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: the reasons that this is interesting to me that they 326 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: plan this car bomb to kill the Sultan is because 327 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: history does record the anarchist as inventors of the car bomb. 328 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: Sorry about that, but yeah, I hate a car bomb. 329 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: That's sad. I've been subject to no probmity to car bombs. Yeah, 330 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: this one. In nineteen twenty, the Wall street car bombing, 331 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: which was bad and it was fucked up and I'm 332 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: mad about it, but it was done by anarchists. 333 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: You know, we have the first podcast network to live 334 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: podcast a car bomb, Margaret, that's one of our claims. 335 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: Like really, yeah, I know. Robert and I were we 336 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 2: were having drinks on the roof of a building just 337 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 2: to opposite the Thai Burmese border when a car bomb 338 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 2: went off and I happened to be recording on my 339 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: little little little podcasting machine and you can hear you 340 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 2: can hear us being like oh ah, and then wondering 341 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 2: when we're going to hear the airplane because like thinking 342 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: it was a regular bomb and it'd be like no, 343 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: and then everyone sort of being like are there any 344 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: more bombs? And then someone found on Facebook, like almost instantly, right, 345 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: and it did. These folks love to be posted on Facebook, 346 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 2: and there were pictures of this car bomb that we were. 347 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: We tried to get across too closer to visit it, 348 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: but it was not possible at that time. 349 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: So that's fair. I'm glad you all chose to continue 350 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: to be alive instead of prioritizing getting close to the bomb. 351 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: The real real win for cool sat and media though. Yeah, 352 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 1: head crews have done that, has he? Yeah, so anarchists 353 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: were the first podcast yeah yeah, yeah, and twenty one 354 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: hundred years prior to that, we get called the first 355 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: car bombers for a shitty bombing. But fifteen years before that, uh, 356 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: we tried to car bomb the Sultan and it was 357 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: a larger pluralistic We'll talk about the pluralism of that movement, 358 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: but you know, the Belgians were involved. Their target. The 359 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: Sultan was really paranoid about being assassinated. He like had 360 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: this thing he was like he felt like he shouldn't 361 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: get assassinated. He'd prefer not to you know. 362 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it chose if you've lived a good life, if 363 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 2: you're worried about multiple people trying to assassinate you, I think. 364 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. For some reason, he was aware of the 365 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: fact that he was like massacring a ton of people. 366 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: And this was like also the peak era of like 367 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: what if the solution is just to kill that one 368 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: guy though? Yeah, And every night he slept in a 369 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: different room of his palace and he fed his meals 370 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: to his cats and dogs to test for poison. But 371 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: he was the formal leader of Islam, so he had 372 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: to go to a public service every Friday. The way 373 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: I know women were involved in this plot is because 374 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: the way that they scouted was that they would all 375 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: dress up as young couples looking for blessings for their weddings. 376 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: So at least half of the scouts were women, unless 377 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: they were substantially ahead of their time. I did manage 378 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: to find one woman's name who was involved in the plot. 379 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: This makes us I'm clearly pro this plot like whatever 380 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: as a Marxist bombmaker named Anna Nellon's her and her 381 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: also bomb maker husband died later that year in a 382 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: tragic and entirely foreseeable We were making bombs at home 383 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: and then the bombs went off accident. 384 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's now bomb area, you know. Yeah, don't 385 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 2: be smoking if you're making your bombs at home. 386 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, something like the ultimate like Devil Make Care archetype 387 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: is the smoking bomb maker in an apartment in like 388 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: the Lower East Side in like eighteen nineties. 389 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've interviewed a couple of bomb makers who have 390 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: had a lot of substantial parts of their bodies to 391 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: smoking while making bombs. Yeah, it's so like, it's so 392 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: it's obviously a terrible and traumatic event. But like again, 393 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,239 Speaker 2: we met these bomb makers, Robert and I, and we 394 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 2: were having a couple of beers and guys like, yeah, 395 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: so telling good stories and he's like, oh yeah, my friend, 396 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 2: my friend we always made the bombs together. And we're like, 397 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,239 Speaker 2: what happened to your friend? And he's like, well, one 398 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 2: day we were making bombs. And then you could just 399 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: see everyone being like, well you're smoking a cigarette, bro. 400 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: It'll be like we went for a cigarette affect for 401 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 2: fuck's sake. 402 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: Fuck. Yeah. 403 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: And that's like tip for you today, vape if your 404 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: if your bomb maker, I guess we'll get. 405 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: Get large when you when you pick amateur bomb maker 406 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: as you're like profession it's because you're like, I'm not 407 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: gonna live very long. 408 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're probably in a bit of a pickle anyway 409 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: to be considering it as a career move. 410 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe some people do it for the purity of 411 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: the art, you know, sure, yeah, totally. So they made 412 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: this car time bomb. They slipped the bomb car into 413 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: the procession of wagons alongside with the sultan, and then 414 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: the fucking sultan stopped to talk to someone for like 415 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: a minute, and so the bomb went off and missed him. 416 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: This killed one of the bombers, and it killed twenty 417 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: six members of the Sultan's retinue. But sadly, no Sultan 418 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: always blowing up the bridesmaids, never blowing up the brides. 419 00:23:54,320 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: That's true for Obama and true for anyway. Oh, it's 420 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: a dark joke. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. In response 421 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 1: not to my joke, but to the assassination attempt on 422 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: the leader of all of Islam and the Ottoman Empire, 423 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: hundreds of folks were arrested and tortured, including the Belgian 424 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: anarchist guy. His wife slipped authorities, and then there was 425 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: this massive protest movement in Belgium to put pressure on 426 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: the salt and to free him. Love that. And then 427 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: here's where you know that the Ottoman Empire is a 428 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: little bit weak to the west right now. It worked. 429 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, if Belgium is pushing you around that, he said, 430 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 2: yeah for the person who tried to blow up your leader. 431 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Still huge win for Belgians and got no 432 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: and Edward Joris, who went home and presumably presumed a 433 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: happy and hopefully on event. I would rest on those 434 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: laurels for the rest of my life. 435 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, Ector Joris, maybe maybebe went straight 436 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: back to the bump factory. 437 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, who fucking knows. Meanwhile, the ARF aren't the only 438 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: folks who hate the Sultan. Those young Turks. It's either 439 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: a click or secret society. It depends on We won't 440 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: put it of Ottoman officers. They wanted the constitution back. Well, 441 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: not for very long, but they claimed that they wanted 442 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: the constitution back. Formally, their name is the Committee of 443 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: Union and Progress, but everyone calls them the Young Turks 444 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: ARF and the Young Turks. In nineteen oh eight, they 445 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: pull it off. They stage a bloodless coup and they 446 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: take power away from the Sultan, who stays on briefly 447 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: as a figurehead. Everyone was like, holy shit, this rules. 448 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: We fucking did it. We have a constitution. It's all 449 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: roses from here on out. Muslims and Christians are literally 450 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: singing and dancing together in the streets. They're like, we 451 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: fucking did it together. Fuck, yeah, we rule. Yeah. A 452 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: representational government might give them rights, and it might allow 453 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: them to be modern enough to fend off Europe, which 454 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: was buying them out piece by piece and destroying their culture. 455 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: Right elected to this new parliament, is Arman Garo from 456 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: the bank takeover the one who had negotiated it, and 457 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: the ARF is now legitimate. And the other Armenian revolutionaries 458 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: they're like, hey, this is going to go badly, y'all. 459 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: Shouldn't help the young Turks. I hope enough of them 460 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 1: were alive. Later. I told you so the ARF, but 461 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't promise. Yeah, there was this brief attempt at 462 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: a counter coup from the right wing after this, you know, 463 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: bloodless coup or whatever, And in the end, the old 464 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: Sultan was ousted entirely. The new Sultan is a figurehead 465 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: of the cup the young Turks. And I don't know 466 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: if you knew this, James, but did you know that 467 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: power consistently corrupts revolutionaries every single time. 468 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a thing that that's been said that the 469 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: people do talk about maybe bad, maybe power bad. 470 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: Well, right away the young Turks became autocrats and started 471 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: murdering their rivals and their allies. Cool. Soon enough, tens 472 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: of thousands of Armenians are being slaughtered. Fucking again, this 473 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: isn't even the This is this is like an intermission genocide. 474 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: This is the second Genosid that Okay, it's dark warm 475 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: up genocide. Yeah, Western Europe is starting to put together 476 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: kind of like a peacekeeping intervention. They're like, hey, what's 477 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: happening over there, you guys? Okay, Like we've been hearing 478 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: some stuff by nineteen thirteen, but that gets interrupted by 479 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: World War One. Yeah, by nineteen thirteen, the young Turks 480 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: are like, just kidding, we are not doing democracy. The 481 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: Central Committee is in charge. Who's the Central Committee not telling? 482 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: The moderates are out? Racist nationalists are in. There are 483 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: three guys who do the most of being in charge, 484 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: although they're not the only people. It's Talat Pasha, Enver 485 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: Pasha and Jamal Pasha. Pasha is an honorific anyone holding 486 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: a top level position within the Ottoman Empire, Governor's general 487 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: shit like that. I've seen the young Turks compared to 488 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: the Nazis time and time again, and it seems apt 489 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: I don't have like a butt here. You have sociologists 490 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: and poets building up a nationalist ideology that is explicitly 491 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: opposed to religious and ethnic diversity. This new country is 492 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: for the Turks and only the Turks. And maybe the 493 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: most in charge man is Talat Pasha. He's a huge, strong, 494 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: man with a Walris mustache. He's also, like a lot 495 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: of the young Turks, not particularly ethnically Turkish. He's mostly 496 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: noted as a Bulgarian Muslim, although his Wikipedia says Bulgarian 497 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: Romanian Turkish descent. The first inclination this is a fuck, 498 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: sorry Sophie and me and the listener. The first inclination 499 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: of how they like to solve their problems is how 500 00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: they decided to deal with the problem of stray dog 501 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: in Constantinople. Oh no, they wanted to deal with straight dogs. 502 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: So they wound and rounded up eighty thousand dogs and 503 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: then dropped them on a small animalize each other and 504 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: starve and ships passing by. I could hear the tortured 505 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: howls of dogs before they died. Oh no, they did 506 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: a dog genocide. They did second time in like six 507 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: weeks that you and or Robert have surprised me with 508 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: horrible dog genocide. I know, I was real sad when 509 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: I listened to the Bastards episode that talked about it. 510 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: I don't I think it's worth understanding how fucking monsters. 511 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 2: No it is, yeah, because you've had to go to 512 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: the extra step of like if you wanted the dogs 513 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: to die there. You could just kill them. Yeah, but 514 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 2: they've they've decided to put them on a genocide island. 515 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 516 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: Wow, now popular tourists. It's not because of that, but 517 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 2: oh great, Yeah, what's the island called? 518 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: And put it in? I was like skipping through this part. 519 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: I was like, Aha, what is the minimum number of 520 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: facts I can put in here to get across the gravity? 521 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: You know? Yeah? Because fuck I dogs. Dogs are not 522 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: morally culpable in the way that humans are capable of being. Yeah, 523 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: because they're all perfect angels. M h. Much like the 524 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: perfect angels that we sell the ax it. I don't 525 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: know how we could sell and. 526 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: We can't make it. We can't make an island joke. 527 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 2: I think we're legally prohibited from. 528 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: No. No an angel joke. I was trying to Okay, no, 529 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: I got nothing. I don't know why you're sad to 530 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: go sad by this stuff and then come back and 531 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: we're back, and now we're gonna there's a world war 532 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: right now? Sorry guys. Yeah, Joe and Biden went to 533 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: sleep and yeah, now he's transported back. Joe Biden, if 534 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: you're listening, you are in World War one right now. 535 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: Again on the Western front. He's like, what's that, Jack, 536 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: you got ice cream? Yeah, that's right. All you got 537 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: to do is beat the Germans and you can get 538 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: some ice cream, Joe, save us from the hunt, Joseph. Yeah, 539 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: the Ottomans, we're almost certainly going to end up siding 540 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: with Germany, but not as like certainly certainly because it's 541 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: not it's not really the Ottoman Empire. It's the young 542 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: Turks who are in charge, right, Yeah, and a lot 543 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: of them are Francophiles, right. They all come out of 544 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: this like we like constitutional democracy as long as we 545 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: can murder all of our rivals and not have a 546 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: constitutional democracy, which frankly is also how most Western governments 547 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: would prefer to be, I think. But yeah, some of 548 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: them were Francophiles, others were Prussia. Files But Germany and 549 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire we're both like, yeah, we hate fuck Russia. 550 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: We hate Russia. So that's the main reason why I 551 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: was like always going to be Germany. I think the 552 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: Ottomans joined the Germans, and the way they did this 553 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: was firing on Russian ports from the Black Sea. That's 554 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: a good way to let people know, isn't it. I know, 555 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: I know. It's just just a nice little reminder that 556 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess to be fair, I feel like, 557 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: if you're Russia, you can just kind of assume the 558 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empires at war with you. Yeah a moment. Yeah, 559 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: you don't want to be you don't want to be 560 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: caught sleeping. And the Western Powers didn't mind that Turkey, 561 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: that the Ottoman Empire joined the Central Powers or whatever 562 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: on some level because they wanted Everyone wants Turkey, right right, 563 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: it's the carving up but Turkey. I'm sure this joke 564 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: has been made. That's why they want you to call 565 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: it Turkia now because people will not stop. But I 566 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: think they got mad about people posting pictures of Turkey's 567 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: in replied to them on an x formerly known as Twitter. Yeah, 568 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: seizing Turkey would be key to seizing all of the 569 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: Arab areas too, and the Suez Canal, which would save 570 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: you from needing to sail all the way around Africa. 571 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: So like Britain and France are like, wouldn't that be sweet? 572 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: You know? And then the young Turks fell for the 573 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: classic blunder. James, you ever tried to invade Russia? No, 574 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: I've been to Russia. 575 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 2: But it was more in a sort of non invasive 576 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: posture when I okay, okay, I just went to the 577 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 2: hotel from the nineteen eighty Olympics and Scott really drunk 578 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 2: with my friends for every night. 579 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great. I got some stories when I used 580 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: to travel way more. I like didn't go to Russia 581 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: because my Greek friend was telling me about going to 582 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: Russia and like the level of scrutiny and bureaucracy that 583 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: they put on everyone who's coming in and how terrifying 584 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, Like he was on the train and 585 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: he was going into Russia and they stopped him and 586 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: they were like, it's like eleven fifty eight pm and 587 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, it says here that you're visas for tomorrow. 588 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 1: You can't come in. And he's like, I don't speak Russian. 589 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: And he's trying to speak in like Greek and English 590 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 1: and stuff, you know, and and so he has to 591 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: interpret through the woman sitting next to him, and then 592 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: eventually the the guard. Eventually it turns midnight and he's like, 593 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: can you let me in now? And they're like fine, 594 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: and he says thank you in Russian, and so then 595 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 1: the guard gets mad again and it's like you could 596 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: speak Russia this old time, you fucking liar, like, and 597 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: I was like, no, I'm good out of Bulgaria. But 598 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: I didn't go to I didn't go to Russia. I'm 599 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: sure Bulgaria was nice too. It was nice, although at 600 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: the time Bulgaria is the place where everything is confusing 601 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: and backwards, and there were Nazis tagging a cab over swastikas. 602 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 2: Okay, fascinating. Acab is a grand unifying principle of a 603 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 2: lot of organizations that wouldn't otherwise agree on very much. 604 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,240 Speaker 1: I know. And also a lot of organizations that totally 605 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: love cops. They just want them to be their cops. 606 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well that is that is an unfortunate problem 607 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 2: with many, yeah, many organizations. 608 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:25,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. 609 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 2: There's a good book called thirteen twelve about football aultras 610 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: which looks at like left and right football altras and 611 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: how they abder to take the cops. Oh shit, okay, 612 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 2: very good book, would recommend it. So Invading Russia. The 613 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 2: Ottoman Empire decides to invade Russia in December, and that's 614 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 2: the one two punch. Don't invade Russia. Don't invade Russia. 615 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 2: In December, like yeah, that's yeah, bad cool. Seventy thousand 616 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 2: soldiers died. However, overall the Ottoman Empires called the Southern Front. 617 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,919 Speaker 2: They did whole Constantinople, which no one expected. They fought 618 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 2: off the British, the Australian and the New Zealanders and 619 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 2: this one campaign and the Turkish commander told as soldiers, 620 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 2: I'm not ordering you to fight, I am ordering you 621 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 2: to die. 622 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: Well at least you. 623 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 2: Know, yeah, we had great feat of aritory theh Yeah, 624 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 2: it's like very quotable. 625 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't feel good about it, yeah, yeah, true. And 626 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: in all of this in World War One, the young 627 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: Turks are like, I bet the Armenians will go over 628 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: to the enemy, and like, first of all, well look sure, 629 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: who could blame them? Right, yeah, why not? What do 630 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: you going to lose? Yeah, Armenian freedom fighters were absolutely 631 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 1: sabotaging the Turkish. They were cutting telegraph wires and spine 632 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: and moving guns around and shit. Some a few thousand 633 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: of them crossed into Russia to volunteer because enemy of 634 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,320 Speaker 1: your enemy and all that shit. In fact, Armangaro, the 635 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 1: arf guy who had occupied the bank and then later 636 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: been in Parliament, he went and fought for Russia. But 637 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: this is a few thousand Armenians out of two million 638 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: Armenians living there. The overwhelming majority of Armenians considered themselves 639 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: to be part of the Ottoman Empire. And for hundreds 640 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: of years Christians had been paying that extra millet tax 641 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: right which actually exempted them from conscription. That was like 642 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 1: part of the whole point. Not under the Young Turks. 643 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,439 Speaker 1: Oh great, and for a little while, oh Sparta, Okay, 644 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: for a little while, the Armenians were in the Turkish army. 645 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 1: They had guns, they had officers, and shit. They're like, yeah, 646 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: we're part of the Ottoman Empire. We've helped you come 647 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 1: to power. Let's do our thing. By February nineteen fifteen, 648 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: the Young Turks forced all of the Christians into what 649 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 1: were called labor battalions. That's not a good thing. No, 650 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: these are slave units in which the soldiers are worked 651 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: to death. The point was to work them to death. Yeah, 652 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: anyone who had the t merity, tenacity, whatever. Anyone who 653 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: didn't die while working was marched off and murdered in 654 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: the desert. And so at this point people are like, oh, 655 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: this is this is like bad, right, this is like, 656 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: now what we want to have happened, and so you 657 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: started getting resistance to this right away, and so the 658 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: Christians and I think with the help of sympathetic Muslims. 659 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: But I haven't done enough research about this part of 660 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: it yet. I know a little bit about it. Later, 661 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: they set up an underground network of in Constantinople to 662 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: help people skip out on being conscripted into slave labor 663 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,320 Speaker 1: death camp time. And this was called the Army of 664 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: the Attics, which is a sick name. Yeah, thousands of 665 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: Christians were sheltered in addicts and behind false walls all 666 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:53,280 Speaker 1: through Constantinople. Like sweet. The more I read this story, 667 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: the more I was like, World War One is just 668 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: World War II. 669 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, we have less like a mythology around it. 670 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, because Western Europe is so up its own ass 671 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: that at least in America, which I'm now calling part 672 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: of Western Europe or whatever, that World War one is 673 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: just French and German people and trenches who are sad 674 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: and killing each other with machine guns, which is bad, right, 675 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: But no, there's a genocide of people based on being 676 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: religious minorities that kills millions, that involves people hiding in addicts, 677 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: and like whatever, Yeah, it's the same shit. 678 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 2: I think it's they're both creatures of like you have 679 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,439 Speaker 2: this decline of like absolute monarchy and like religion having 680 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 2: the claim on universal truth, and then to replace that 681 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 2: we get nationalism, and we get nationalism we do in 682 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 2: group out group. And this is what happens in World one, 683 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: this is what happens in World War two, is what 684 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 2: happens in the Armenian genocide, it's what happens in many 685 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:03,240 Speaker 2: of the other genocides, like the creatures of the same thing. Yeah, 686 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: the fascists just went a little bit harder, and we 687 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: find their aesthetic a little bit more repugnant. So we 688 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 2: created this good versus evil narrative which like fascists or evil, 689 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 2: but like, yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean everyone of find 690 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 2: them is good. 691 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: And so at this point, the Ottomans are saying, how 692 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: do we solve the Armenian question? And that is what 693 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 1: they called it cool, and so they decided to eliminate 694 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: all Armenians living in Anatolia and basically all Christians. They 695 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: disguised these as deportations and hit it by the fog 696 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: of war. And they didn't say, let's do a genocide, 697 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: one because no one says that, and two because that 698 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:49,240 Speaker 1: word didn't exist. That word was created in part because 699 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: of what happens next, which is my opposite of a cliffhanger, 700 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: because normally you want to make people excited about what 701 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 1: comes next. For a cliffhanger, this is one of the 702 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: worst things that's happened in the history of the world. 703 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 1: But the cool people special is finding the people doing 704 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: amazing things during the darkest chapters of history. And there's 705 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: a lot of those people and they're coming up next week. Yay, yay. 706 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: One of the things that really surprised me we're reading 707 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,879 Speaker 1: about all this is just how much tied into all 708 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: of these like revolutionary socialist organizations and all of it. 709 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: It was like, like it always is. I feel like 710 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: the few times I've seen it, it's been presented as 711 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,800 Speaker 1: it sort of just comes out of nowhere, you know, Yeah, 712 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: and very few things come out of nowhere. 713 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like we do a disservice and we remove 714 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 2: them from context, right because like how we get to 715 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 2: a place where we can do genocide is it's shit 716 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 2: that's extremely fucking relevant right now. Yeah, Like if we 717 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 2: are watching a genocide happen as we are, like we're 718 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 2: just seeing this global crackdown or refugees, Like we need 719 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 2: to think about that too, And I think we do 720 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 2: that with World War two as well, right we like 721 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 2: oh right by, you know, like nineteen thirty three, poof, 722 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 2: they're the Nazis, like totally we don't look at you know, like, 723 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 2: oh wow, what economic recession. I want to like the 724 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 2: thing that will never happen again. 725 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 1: And one of the things that really stands out to 726 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: me that I've been like thinking a lot about after 727 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: doing this particular research, is this whole thing where like 728 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,399 Speaker 1: they're not allowed to be armed and everyone else around 729 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,479 Speaker 1: them is armed, right, Yeah. And one of the reasons 730 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,360 Speaker 1: I think about it is that, like I get why 731 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: there's this like liberal and progressive desire to reduce them 732 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:38,359 Speaker 1: number of guns in our society, right, Like women are 733 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 1: safer if their husbands don't own guns. That is just 734 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: a fucking thing, you know. And so it's like I 735 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: get why we're talking about all of that, And it 736 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 1: feels like this inescapable thing that that genocide is like 737 00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: way more common then people tend to think that the 738 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,399 Speaker 1: like absolute worst things that humanity can do to each 739 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 1: other happens way more often then people want to admit. 740 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: People want to talk about the Nazis as this complete 741 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: outlier with nothing else like it before or after. 742 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, like I know, if I can maybe 743 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 2: like bang my anarchist drama a bit, like, I think 744 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 2: it's very hard again, if we are historians who are 745 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 2: enabled unable to conceive of human society existing in a 746 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,359 Speaker 2: modern fashion outside of the state, to look at how 747 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 2: often the state is a tool for genocide, right, and 748 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 2: how often a state is created by or for genocide, 749 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 2: And yeah, like that doesn't I think if you accept 750 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:48,919 Speaker 2: that analysis, then it doesn't follow that it's a good 751 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 2: idea to allow the state to have a monopoly on 752 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 2: the tools by which it can do killing. And that 753 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 2: leads to people should own guns. But yeah, unfortunately, we're 754 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 2: in a particularly fucked time in human history where you know, 755 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,880 Speaker 2: things like, like, we have other problems, right, Misogyny is 756 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 2: a problem. That's why women are at risk if their 757 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,760 Speaker 2: domestic partner's own guns, right, or specifically male domestic partners, 758 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 2: I guess, And we have many other societal problems of alienation, 759 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 2: and this leads to these things like mass shootings, which 760 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 2: are fucking horrific. Like I don't have the answer at 761 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 2: all of those things, but yeah, I do think like 762 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 2: like we're at a time when I don't know, if 763 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 2: we look at things that have led to genocide, Like 764 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 2: it's a scary fucking time in human history, is what 765 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 2: I'm saying. And you know, the Left party right now 766 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 2: in American politics is the party which has presided over 767 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 2: record numbers of migrant deaths more than the fucking right 768 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 2: party did in the trumpeter and like it's just not 769 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 2: even a thing that we talk about very much in 770 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 2: the mass media, and that scares the shit out of me. 771 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 1: Yeah no, And it's it's you know, it's like and 772 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to, like I don't know what to 773 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: specifically do about it. I don't. This is not me 774 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: saying like everyone should go out and get firearms, although 775 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: I think that it is useful for some people to 776 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: familiarize familiarize themselves with the use of them, and like 777 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: safe environments and things like that. But it's like it's 778 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: just a it's a sketchy time and and I think 779 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: that like people are often coming and so swinging so 780 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: hard on these like easy answers where they're like, of 781 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,439 Speaker 1: course guns are great, and you're like, well, the only 782 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: reason that we should have firearms is because the other 783 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: side does. 784 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, bad, they kill people Like I just 785 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 2: I am a person who enjoys guns. I have lots 786 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 2: of them. I like to buy old ones and fix 787 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 2: them up. But like, yeah, I would love a world 788 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 2: where it didn't exist. Yeah, and like, I mean, but. 789 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: Then again, you know, some of the worst atrocities that 790 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: have happened in history happened with swords, you know, fucking machetes. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. 791 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: I guess that's where we'll leave it. And next week 792 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: we will talk about the Armenian genocide, but we're also 793 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: going to talk about Operation Nemesis and how people resisted 794 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: in ways that are more complex. And it's like, no 795 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: matter what, the simple version of the story is really cool, 796 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: but the deeper version of the story is even cooler. 797 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: I'm excited to hear that. Yeah. Hell yeah, I love 798 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,880 Speaker 1: a good resisted story anyway. 799 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, anything you want to plug, I will plug building 800 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 2: community and mutual aid. Like, I think the solution to 801 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,320 Speaker 2: whatever the fuck is going to happen. 802 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: Is each other. 803 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 2: It's not the state, it's not any political party. It's 804 00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,239 Speaker 2: building community and showing up for one another, and that 805 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,600 Speaker 2: includes down at the border where you can come and volunteer. 806 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 2: Someone who listened to our podcast came this week and 807 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 2: I was so happy, like, oh hell yeah, someone do it. 808 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 2: Came from the internet to the passenger seat of my 809 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,799 Speaker 2: truck and we went around and helped people. So yeah, 810 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 2: you don't have to come to a border with the 811 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 2: people who need help everywhere, and building strong communities like 812 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,880 Speaker 2: these strong communities that went and killed like Genesee Dais 813 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 2: is the way to fix your problems. 814 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 1: So do that. 815 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 2: Make friends. You don't have to get guns, but if 816 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,839 Speaker 2: you can make PB and J sandwiches for hungry people, 817 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 2: then you're doing the work. 818 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: It's that either like Simpsons or Futurama. I mean that's 819 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,759 Speaker 1: like guns for the people who want guns and not 820 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: guns for the people who want not guns. 821 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's perfect and fucking free food for everyone 822 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 2: and to sleep and yeah if you want to gun, cool, 823 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 2: but going to save you on your own, you make friends, 824 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 2: look after them. 825 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,640 Speaker 1: And I will plug giving food away to people. It 826 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,959 Speaker 1: is never wrong. Sometimes it's complex. Sometimes there's like things 827 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: you can get into the complicated nature of blah blah 828 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But like overall, you don't know what 829 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,000 Speaker 1: else to do. Find your local food, not bombs. Yeah, 830 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,480 Speaker 1: make a fucking lentil. It's the instrument of the revolution. 831 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,480 Speaker 1: Oh maybe I want eat lentils. No, I I always 832 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,600 Speaker 1: eat dumplanes after after recording. There's not a lot of 833 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:10,399 Speaker 1: vegan comfort food. And where I live, rocery store, you're 834 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: outside of the hot land of the vegan Yeah, cake, 835 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 1: but there are dumplanes at the grocery store that happened 836 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: to be vegan, and they are my comfort food. And 837 00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: I eat dinner later on recording nights, and now everyone 838 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: knows that I'm currently hungry. That is what everyone has learned. 839 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: But one of the best, like the same is like 840 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: you're talking to people who come up because of the show, 841 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 1: who are volunteering at the border. You know, I was 842 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: recently talking to someone who was like, hey, cool Zone 843 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: media talking about how important feeding people is. Is how 844 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,480 Speaker 1: I like started spending most of my time making soup 845 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:50,360 Speaker 1: for people. Oh yes, it's it's really cool. Thanks listeners 846 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:56,800 Speaker 1: for participating in creating a better culture. And Sophia, you 847 00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 1: got anything you want to plug? We're sunscreen hell yeah, damn. 848 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, So if you said that, because I today I'm 849 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 2: wearing a sleeveless top and it's painfully obvious that parts 850 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 2: of me have not. 851 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,920 Speaker 1: Seen the sun for like ten months, and I'm extremely 852 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,319 Speaker 1: wear sunscreen even if you don't leave your house. I'm 853 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: going to pitch the two rules of sleeves. I've probably 854 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,960 Speaker 1: done this on the show before, but I feel like 855 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: you need to know them. James stout. The two rules 856 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:25,319 Speaker 1: of sleeves are suns out, guns out, m classic and 857 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: it's corollary. Sun's gone, sleeves gone. Ah Okay, I like that. Yeah, 858 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: so if you have an option, Yeah, so there's no sleeves, 859 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,920 Speaker 1: that's the rule. Yeah, you didn't need them. They're, uh, 860 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, thing of the past. Yeah, we're sunscreen. All right, 861 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 1: see you all next week. Cool People Who Did Cool 862 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,879 Speaker 1: Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media. Or more 863 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,240 Speaker 1: podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia 864 00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 865 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.