WEBVTT - The Call of the Void: Don’t Pick Up! 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:07.760 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.600 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.520 Chuck and Ben's here too, and that makes this a 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:21.600 good old rousing edition of Stuff you Should Know. Philosophy 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:22.319 Now edition. 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.040 Yeah, I mean, I apologize to Josh off here. I 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.760 might as well say it now. I may be a 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.680 little rough in this one because my brain breaks a 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:37.400 little bit when we have these philosophy subjects. And even 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.520 though I made an A and the only philosophy class 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:42.760 I took in college, which I've said before, huh, it's 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.680 only because I was so frustrated by it. I worked 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.400 really really hard to try and understand it and ended 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.120 up getting an A. But it breaks my brain a 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:54.240 lot of times. 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.080 Oh now, okay, boy, you didn't end that sentence under 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:03.320 normal circumstance. No, but good for you. Power for powering 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.600 through that that uh, that class and not just being like, well, 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.600 I guess I'll take a zero in this one again. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.240 Or drop it in that first week. I did a 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:12.640 lot of that. 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.959 I did that once in astronomy. I was like, wait, 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.080 why are you using like the Greek symbol for epsilon 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.280 and sigma in this like I thought we were going 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.600 to talk about Mars and stuff and no, right, I 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.000 got rid of that really quick. 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:28.680 Yeah, good, good job. 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.200 All right, So I kind of I think have a 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.440 bit of a grasp on the the philosophy of it. 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.600 What I had trouble with with some of the studies, 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:40.840 like the actual research on it. So we'll just muddle through. 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.839 It will be fun. Sometimes those are our most enjoyable episodes. 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.360 Sometimes there are worst. Let's find out which way this 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:46.880 one goes. 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.160 Yeah, what we're talking talking about is something we've talked 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.160 about on the show before. I wish I could remember 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.720 which episode, but we've definitely talked about the call of 0:01:55.760 --> 0:02:02.160 the void what what the French call lapel do or 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:06.640 high place phenomenon, And that is the idea that and 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.960 it's not just the desire to maybe hurl your yourself 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.200 off the top of a building if you're standing, or 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:17.440 a bridge, if you're standing atop of high structure. Yeah, 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:19.000 that's the one we're going to concentrate on. But it 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.600 can also mean and I know this is what we 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.720 talked about before, because I talked about like grabbing the 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:29.760 cops gun or driving into oncoming traffic, right that very 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:35.040 amazing scene from Christopher Walking and Annie Hall where he's 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.400 talking about, you know, swerving into oncoming traffic is so good, 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.600 and they smash cut, you know, to him driving Woody 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:44.640 and Annie home. It's just one of the great movie jokes. 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.639 But you know, that's the idea, is this weird urge? 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:50.200 I know it was an episode of Louis as well, 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:52.240 and I'm trying to think if I could think of 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.720 any more canceled filmmakers. 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.919 Right exactly. He did a short on it once. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.799 You know, it was in both of those things, And yeah, 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:05.320 it's this weird desire to be like standing at top 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.400 of a tall structure and be like, I could just 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.760 jump right now and see what's out there. 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.240 Yeah, so that's a I think that's the most common 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.520 phenomenon of the call of the void, just it occurring 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.959 to you that you could do this. It can get worse, though, too, 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.679 because some people not only experience that notion occurring to them, 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.239 they've experienced something akin to an urge, so much so 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:29.959 that sometimes people will like push themselves away from the 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.360 edge that they might like go back into whatever stairwell 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.600 they just came out of because they don't want to 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:40.160 accidentally or inadvertently. They don't trust themselves not to follow 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.560 that urge. That's when it gets really scary. And if 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.840 you think about it, we humans have a real tendency 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.840 towards self preservation, like we fight to live, sometimes to 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:56.280 degrees that surprise ourselves afterward, you know. So that makes 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.680 the call of the void completely nonsensical. It makes zero 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.280 sense whatsoever that you would have an urge to just 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.800 end it all for no reason, just because it's there, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.040 just because there's a huge void there, jumping into it 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.280 because it occurred to you. So the fact that this 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:17.320 is a fairly common phenomenon, it bears investigating. And so 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.920 psychologists have gotten into it. Philosophers have gotten into it, 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.440 like you said, Woody Allen's gotten into it. It's a 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.400 thing for sure. And I love the fact that it's 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:32.159 a mystery because no one's actually successfully explained it, and 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.279 I don't know if we ever will. And for my money, 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:40.200 I don't really want to what understand it. Yes, because 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:42.960 I throw I cast my lot with the philosophers. I 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:47.400 think kerker Garden start nailed it, but it's still I mean, 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.200 you don't prove things with philosophy it's just like, what about. 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:56.040 This, Yeah, yeah, I mean we'll get to statistics and 0:04:56.080 --> 0:05:01.279 how they align with you know, legitimate suicidal ideation later, 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.880 probably in the last part, but just among the two 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.000 of us. I know, I know I said this before 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.400 with when we talked about it before, but I have 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.480 felt the call of the void many many times. And 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.839 for me, it's not I could just end it all, 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:22.720 but it's more like, uh, it's hard to And maybe 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:24.400 that's one of the frustrating things. It's really hard to 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.080 explain what's going through my head. It's it's sort of 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:31.360 like no one can stop me from doing this, and 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.000 I could, I could know what that feels like to fall. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.440 Part of it is I had a very tragically had 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.200 a friend fall off a building to his death, and 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:44.920 oh yeah, so there there's a little bit of that, 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.080 like I would want to know what Aaron felt like 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.200 and like how scary that was as a as an 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.720 empathetic thing. So there's a lot of things in my head. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.040 None of that explains why I want to grab the 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.719 cops because I was about to ask that I've never 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.080 really felt the driving into the other lane thing, but 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.159 I just I don't know, it's really fascinating to have 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.560 these thoughts pop into your head when normally, you know, 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.400 you're the kind of person that would never entertain anything 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:13.080 like that. 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:15.680 Yeah, so you just said a mouthful. Essentially, the call 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.720 of the void can be can come from it can 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.520 come out of nowhere, which makes it an intrusive thought 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.200 in a lot of situations. Other Times it can be 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.080 triggered by the situation, like you're not going to think 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.479 about driving into oncoming traffic while you're you know, in 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.159 your chemistry class, Like it's while you're driving, right, So 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:36.120 there's some that are triggered by circumstances. And then you 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.600 also said that you're like, you're basically you're horrified by 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.360 the idea you're even having this thought. It's just totally out. 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:43.360 Of character for you. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.040 So you put all that together, you have what essentially 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.680 is the call of the void. And I say we 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.640 go up to the tee and put the little baseball 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.720 or whiffle ball on top of the tee and knock 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:58.760 it out of the park. With the philosophers first, all. 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.640 Right, I will say this that the carecer guard stuff 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.920 really spoke to me me too. We're talking about Danish 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:09.440 philosopher Surin, I guess I don't know what the null 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:10.280 sign means. 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:15.120 So it's like an umlaut okay, so Surin, basically, I guess. 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.200 He talked about this idea that the callovoid call of 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:25.000 the void illustrates anxiety and in his case, and this 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.400 is the part that really spoke to me. He argued that, 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.440 and I think he's dead right. Actually, is that fear 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.560 is when outside forces are scaring you something that could 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.240 harm you from the outside. Anxiety is when that's turned 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.640 inward and that's emerging from your The threat is coming 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.520 from within their inside the house basically, and that house 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.800 is your brain. So the freedom to the freedom of 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.040 choice in life to move about the world, just to 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.920 choose what you do from moment to moment, you're constantly 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.840 making choices without knowing necessarily what the right thing to 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.160 do was. So when an anxiety can come from what 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.760 he called the dizziness of freedom, of that freedom specifically. 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.679 Yeah, exactly, And just the basis of anxiety is having 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:09.360 those choices, not knowing what's right, like you said, and 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:14.000 that because our lives are filled from moment to moment 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.160 with making a choice, not making a choice, which stills 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.760 a choice, just as Gedty Lee that, of course it's 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:23.120 going to create anxiety, which means anxiety is the human condition. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.520 It's almost the basis of the human condition, is what 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.440 he was saying. So he kind of used that, or 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.400 used the call of the void to kind of demonstrate that, 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:37.000 essentially saying that you when you're up there on a precipice, 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.559 you're aware that you have the choice to just throw 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.600 yourself over, and just realizing that that is a choice 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.080 of that you can make right then, like you said, 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:53.160 no one's going to stop you having that freedom. Is 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.640 it's too much we like to think that, you know, 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.760 we don't have choices that we have metal, we have 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.440 a self preservation drive, we have all this stuff that 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.520 would prevent us from even ever considering that. And yet 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:07.920 whenever we experience the call of the void, it is 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:13.319 by definition experience experiencing that urge, like the realization that 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.959 we can choose that. And that's what kure Kaguard kind 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:17.840 of kicked the whole thing off with, I think in 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.920 the eighteen fifties. When you use that to illustrate anxiety 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:23.320 in humans. 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:24.439 Can we have a quick side chat? 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:26.960 Yeah, what do they call them? 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.200 Not diversions tangents. 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:35.280 Yeah, yeah, one of our tangents about rush Okay, did 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.199 you hear me very quickly say Neil Pert, No, I didn't, 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.520 you said Getty Lee. Okay, Well Neil Pert wrote that. 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.240 Oh so I just quickly pointed that out. But that's 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.520 not what I was trying to point out. Okay, on 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:47.839 that record, and I remember this specifically. My brother and 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.080 I were listening to and looking over that LP which 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:51.440 you do. 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:52.960 What is that spirit of radio? 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.600 Yeah, on the record is the lyric and if you 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:02.240 choose not to decide, Well, first of all, if you're 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.200 not a rushman. The lyric that they recorded was, if 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.880 you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:08.839 I feel like you have to say it like Geddy 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.520 Lee still out made a choice beautiful. 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.840 Uh So they recorded it like that. Neil Purt was 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:18.920 their lyricist. But on the record, my brother and I 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.840 notice it says if you choose not to decide, you 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:23.199 cannot have made a choice. 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:24.640 Oh well, they got that wrong. 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:26.960 They it was like on the album and he my 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.640 brother looked at me and laughed and like mimicked to 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.040 Gedty Lee, like crossing it out with a pencil like, well, 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:34.479 Neil Purt wasn't looking. 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:36.400 And that is just always stood out to me. 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.880 Did Neil part write most of their lyrics or was it. 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:42.079 Just yeah, he was their lyricists. 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.760 I didn't know that. Okay, wasn't that crazy, But yeah, 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:46.480 he got that wrong big time. 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:51.440 Uh So back to it from Kuerker Guard, along those 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.880 same lines you talked about, is it Start. 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:57.960 That's what I've always said, Yeah, he doesn't. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:03.480 Jean Jean Paul SARTs another philosopher, he talked about that 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:08.600 as the vertigo of possibility, basically the same idea as Carekerguard, 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:15.080 of like a literal dizziness of possibilities, and he kind 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:18.319 of leaned more into the you know, the freedom about 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:22.600 questions of our human experience, and he went down a 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.480 different road than Carekerguard ultimately did. But they both sort 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:27.560 of referred to it as a literal dizziness. 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.160 Yeah, for sure, because a lot of people do experience 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.559 something akin to vertigo when they're looking down from a 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:34.840 high place, even if they're not afraid lights. 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.600 Right, Oh, I for sure do. Yeah, So it. 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:39.200 Does make sense that they would both use that. But 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.520 Start was definitely doing a big yes a and to carecreguard, 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:44.880 and I think he even calls out Careguard in the 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.120 section of being a nothingness. Right, But his whole jam 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.559 that he kind of took, the point that he took 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.520 it to was not only are you realizing, like you 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:58.360 have this freedom of choice, you also realize that your 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.200 future self has that same freedom of choice. And you, 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.600 the one who's making this choice right now not to 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.120 leap over this precipice for no good reason, has zero 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:13.440 control over whether you in the future future you is 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.280 going to make that same choice or not. And that 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.319 is a reason to be terrified of being alive. Essentially, 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:20.599 is what Sart said. 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:25.000 Right, Yeah, I mean not quite multiverse stuff, but it's 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:29.480 sort of along the same lines, like almost future future 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:30.360 multiverse maybe. 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:32.400 Yeah, But what he was saying also is a lot 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.920 like kerky Guard, Like life is made up of choices 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.640 moment to moment to moment, And his whole thing is like, 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:42.440 there's no solid self, there's no you that exists. You know, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.959 when you're born or even after you develop a little bit, 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:48.880 to the time you die, you are constantly you have 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.560 to constantly keep the self going by making essentially the 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.400 same decisions over and over again, and if you don't 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:59.040 have the same experience, say like terror when you're up 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.960 on a precipice and decide not to jump, If the 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.000 next time you're up there and you're not terrified, you 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.520 feel like, what's it like to fly, you might make 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.040 the same decision, even though it's out of character with 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.120 how you were before that. The self is that fluid essentially, 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:13.959 is what he was saying. 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.840 Yeah, and he sort of related that to gambling or 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.600 the gambler who you know, like an addictive gambler who 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.760 quits gambling and you know, let's say years later they 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.640 walk by a gambling table and instead of seeing the 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.280 gambling table and immediately thinking like, God, that's the worst 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:36.440 thing that ever happened to me, the reaction is, well, 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.640 that was sort of a memory of a feeling that 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.880 I had, and in order to get back that true 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.360 feeling of I shouldn't do this, I can only do 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:45.520 that by doing it again. 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.840 Sort of like a not quite like rose colored glasses. 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.800 But I think everyone's sort of had that same feeling 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:53.920 about an X. 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.360 Before years later, where you're like. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.640 Yeah, I was so bad about that, should I give 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.240 them a call? When in fact it was a terrible 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.120 situation and like to give them the call and try. 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.640 I mean, John Cusack made a whole movie about it 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.680 to go back to and revisit, like the ex girlfriends, 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.440 And it's just constantly reminded, like the Gambler would be of, like, no, 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.200 this was a bad idea twenty years ago, it's not 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.840 a good idea now still. 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.720 Right, And the same thing holds you for like smoking 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:23.920 or something like that, Like when you decided to quit 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.440 smoking quick gambling, break up, Like you're in a certain 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.760 experience right then that you don't necessarily feel or experience 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.800 a year later, so you have to remind yourself like 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.360 to make that same decision again. Your future self could 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:40.480 make a different decision than you did right then and 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.600 you have no control over it. I know. 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:48.000 Pretty awesome, Right, Should we break or should we talk 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:48.840 about Gary Cox? 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.520 Let's finish with Gary Cox real quick, because I like 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:53.360 this guy's jib. 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.560 The cint of his jib. He's a British philosopher. We 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.640 can pronounce his name, so that's a plus. And he 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.680 looks at more as an existentialist kind of thing, where 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.680 we have these psychological defenses that we construct against thing, 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.240 but they're basically just all an illusion. It's things that 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.680 we make up to fool ourselves into thinking we have 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:18.360 an instinct for self preservation. 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.600 Yeah, and he's saying that. What Kierka Garden Sart are 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.320 both saying is essentially that we when we experience the 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.680 call of the void, that what's called bad faith as 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.080 far as existentialists are concerned. Anytime we delude ourselves, it's 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:37.440 a bad faith illusion essentially, that all of those are 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.000 just essentially us deluding ourselves, and it's laid bare by 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.040 the call of the void. Like, the only reason you're 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.640 not jumping right now is not because you have this 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.040 self preservation instinct, is not because you don't want to 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.000 do that to your family or anything like that. It's 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.640 because you are choosing right then not to jump. That's it. 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.040 It's the only thing that's preventing you from jumping right then. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.200 And that scares the but Jesus out of anybody who 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.840 has a brain in their head when they experience the 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.520 call the void, especially when it's accompanied by the urge 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:08.720 to jump, not just the thought of jumping. 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.800 Yeah, so shall we break now. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.400 Yes, look at that with the ball, go, we knocked 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:15.120 it out of the park. 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.440 We'll come back and we'll talk about these intrusive thoughts 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:19.800 that people are having right after this. 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:46.920 All right, Tuck, I feel like I should start with 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.640 a confession. I've been talking a lot of macho talk 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.000 about te balls and hitting it out of the park. 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.960 I used to strike out at T ball pretty often, 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.040 and they give you a lot more than just three 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.760 strikes before they tell you to go sit down, like 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.399 maybe seven eight, sometimes depending on the coach, and I 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.080 would still strike out and it happened more than once. 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:13.840 Yeah, what was happening there? 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.520 What's happening there is? I was a terrible T ball player. 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.520 I didn't play T ball, so you know I didn't 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:21.280 have that experience. 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.120 But you know what t ball is, right. 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.480 Yeah, you set a ball on a tee, it's not moving, 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.800 not going anywhere, and you've got a baseball bat in 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:29.120 your hand. 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:32.399 Yeah. I thought i'd feel better after admitting that, I 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:33.359 feel much worse. 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.919 Actually, well, you've told me that before, so I was 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.440 pre I felt bad for you back then. 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:40.639 It's funny. 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:42.440 Have I talked about it on the podcast or was 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:43.120 in private? 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.320 No, I was on the show, but that's okay. It 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.520 was years ago, Okay, Yeah, we've been doing this for 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:50.560 sixteen years. That's gonna happen what. 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:53.480 We promised. 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:59.880 Talk about intrusive thoughts and intrusive thought is defined base 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.400 as a thought that is not in character for you, 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:08.320 that you're thinking it. It's pretty bothersome and it's a 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.840 hard thing for you to control, and if you start 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.399 really digging in and worrying about it and looking for 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.359 meaning behind it, they can be very, very disruptive to 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:18.200 someone's life. 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.400 Yeah, they're really a problem for people who have clinical 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.359 obsessive compulsive disorder. 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:25.280 Yeah. 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:27.400 The reason why there's such a problem is, I mean, 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.520 intrusive thoughts can affect anybody. You don't have to have OCD. 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:35.640 The problem that a companies OCD is that people will 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:39.680 try to find a way of coping with that intrusive thought. 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.399 And the classic example is being a germa feeling like 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.800 your hands are dirty, so you go wash your hands. 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.119 By washing your hands, you're coping with the sensation that 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.320 your hands are dirty, you have germs on your hands, 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.160 and you alleviate that by washing your hands. Well, if 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:57.080 you have an intrusive thought and the idea that your 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.760 hands are dirty is essentially constant, you're gonna spend a 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.320 lot of your time washing your hands, and it's going 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.880 to actually impact your life. That's a classic example of 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.679 somebody suffering from OCD. But if you take away the 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:16.000 you know, washing your hands to alleviate that stress from 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.600 the intrusive thought, you have what happens to basically anybody, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.560 this thought that kind of comes out of nowhere. It's 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:26.720 often very, very troubling. There's a whole variety called morbid obsessions, 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:29.320 which is, you know, I could pick up that axe 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.320 and kill my whole family right now. And then you're like, 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.560 wait a minute, why am I thinking that? And you 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.280 feel horrible for that even crossing your mind because what 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.159 loving you know, husband, wife, child, would ever think of 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.000 something like that. And you start to go down that 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.840 road and you're too afraid to even bring it up 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:47.720 to anybody. You'll want to be like, hey, I just 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.560 thought of killing all of you guys with an axe. 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:52.840 Let's talk that out. So the more you keep it 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.280 to yourself and ruminate on it, the more terrifying it becomes. 0:19:56.720 --> 0:20:00.200 And that is essentially the cycle of intrusive thought that 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.199 can only be broken by essentially saying that was an 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.119 intrusive thought. I accept as an intrusive thought. I don't 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.520 actually want to kill my family with an axe. And 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:10.399 this kind of thing happens to everybody. 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.679 Yeah, and you know, Lyvia pointed out she did a 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:15.119 great job with the school, by the way. 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.560 She knocked the cheek all out of the part she did. 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.120 Lyvia pointed out that this has led to a lot 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:26.520 of bad stuff, especially with people with OCD in the past, 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:30.440 with like the court system and like having children taken 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.480 away or something. Because the old idea, as far as 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.600 psychiatry is concerned or psycho analysis is concerned, was if 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:43.920 you're having these ideations, it's really a manifestation of your 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:48.719 unconscious desire. So if you have a thought about, you know, 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.360 drowning your children, and then all of a sudden, you're 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:54.600 going down this rabbit hole of like, oh my god, 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:56.359 how could I think that? And what is that all about? 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:56.720 Now? 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.359 And then you're just really drilling down into that because 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.880 you're horrified by it. You have now an analyst saying, oh, well, 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:07.280 that's really your unconscious desire, your honor or, ladies and 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:09.959 gentlemen of the jury. And so you get your children 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:12.240