1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: Chuck and Ben's here too, and that makes this a 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 2: good old rousing edition of Stuff you Should Know. Philosophy 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 2: Now edition. 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I apologize to Josh off here. I 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: might as well say it now. I may be a 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: little rough in this one because my brain breaks a 9 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: little bit when we have these philosophy subjects. And even 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: though I made an A and the only philosophy class 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: I took in college, which I've said before, huh, it's 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: only because I was so frustrated by it. I worked 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: really really hard to try and understand it and ended 14 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: up getting an A. But it breaks my brain a 15 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: lot of times. 16 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: Oh now, okay, boy, you didn't end that sentence under 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: normal circumstance. No, but good for you. Power for powering 18 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: through that that uh, that class and not just being like, well, 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: I guess I'll take a zero in this one again. 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 3: Or drop it in that first week. I did a 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 3: lot of that. 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: I did that once in astronomy. I was like, wait, 23 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: why are you using like the Greek symbol for epsilon 24 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: and sigma in this like I thought we were going 25 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: to talk about Mars and stuff and no, right, I 26 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: got rid of that really quick. 27 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, good, good job. 28 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: All right, So I kind of I think have a 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: bit of a grasp on the the philosophy of it. 30 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: What I had trouble with with some of the studies, 31 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 2: like the actual research on it. So we'll just muddle through. 32 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 2: It will be fun. Sometimes those are our most enjoyable episodes. 33 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: Sometimes there are worst. Let's find out which way this 34 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: one goes. 35 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, what we're talking talking about is something we've talked 36 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: about on the show before. I wish I could remember 37 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: which episode, but we've definitely talked about the call of 38 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: the void what what the French call lapel do or 39 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: high place phenomenon, And that is the idea that and 40 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: it's not just the desire to maybe hurl your yourself 41 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: off the top of a building if you're standing, or 42 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: a bridge, if you're standing atop of high structure. Yeah, 43 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: that's the one we're going to concentrate on. But it 44 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: can also mean and I know this is what we 45 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: talked about before, because I talked about like grabbing the 46 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: cops gun or driving into oncoming traffic, right that very 47 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: amazing scene from Christopher Walking and Annie Hall where he's 48 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, swerving into oncoming traffic is so good, 49 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: and they smash cut, you know, to him driving Woody 50 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: and Annie home. It's just one of the great movie jokes. 51 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: But you know, that's the idea, is this weird urge? 52 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: I know it was an episode of Louis as well, 53 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to think if I could think of 54 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: any more canceled filmmakers. 55 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 2: Right exactly. He did a short on it once. 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: You know, it was in both of those things, And yeah, 57 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: it's this weird desire to be like standing at top 58 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: of a tall structure and be like, I could just 59 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: jump right now and see what's out there. 60 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's a I think that's the most common 61 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: phenomenon of the call of the void, just it occurring 62 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 2: to you that you could do this. It can get worse, though, too, 63 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 2: because some people not only experience that notion occurring to them, 64 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 2: they've experienced something akin to an urge, so much so 65 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 2: that sometimes people will like push themselves away from the 66 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 2: edge that they might like go back into whatever stairwell 67 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: they just came out of because they don't want to 68 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: accidentally or inadvertently. They don't trust themselves not to follow 69 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: that urge. That's when it gets really scary. And if 70 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: you think about it, we humans have a real tendency 71 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: towards self preservation, like we fight to live, sometimes to 72 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: degrees that surprise ourselves afterward, you know. So that makes 73 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: the call of the void completely nonsensical. It makes zero 74 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: sense whatsoever that you would have an urge to just 75 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: end it all for no reason, just because it's there, 76 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: just because there's a huge void there, jumping into it 77 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: because it occurred to you. So the fact that this 78 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: is a fairly common phenomenon, it bears investigating. And so 79 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: psychologists have gotten into it. Philosophers have gotten into it, 80 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: like you said, Woody Allen's gotten into it. It's a 81 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: thing for sure. And I love the fact that it's 82 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 2: a mystery because no one's actually successfully explained it, and 83 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: I don't know if we ever will. And for my money, 84 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: I don't really want to what understand it. Yes, because 85 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: I throw I cast my lot with the philosophers. I 86 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: think kerker Garden start nailed it, but it's still I mean, 87 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: you don't prove things with philosophy it's just like, what about. 88 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: This, Yeah, yeah, I mean we'll get to statistics and 89 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: how they align with you know, legitimate suicidal ideation later, 90 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: probably in the last part, but just among the two 91 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: of us. I know, I know I said this before 92 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: with when we talked about it before, but I have 93 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: felt the call of the void many many times. And 94 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: for me, it's not I could just end it all, 95 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: but it's more like, uh, it's hard to And maybe 96 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: that's one of the frustrating things. It's really hard to 97 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: explain what's going through my head. It's it's sort of 98 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: like no one can stop me from doing this, and 99 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: I could, I could know what that feels like to fall. 100 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: Part of it is I had a very tragically had 101 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: a friend fall off a building to his death, and 102 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: oh yeah, so there there's a little bit of that, 103 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: like I would want to know what Aaron felt like 104 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: and like how scary that was as a as an 105 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: empathetic thing. So there's a lot of things in my head. 106 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: None of that explains why I want to grab the 107 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: cops because I was about to ask that I've never 108 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: really felt the driving into the other lane thing, but 109 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: I just I don't know, it's really fascinating to have 110 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: these thoughts pop into your head when normally, you know, 111 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: you're the kind of person that would never entertain anything 112 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: like that. 113 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you just said a mouthful. Essentially, the call 114 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 2: of the void can be can come from it can 115 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: come out of nowhere, which makes it an intrusive thought 116 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: in a lot of situations. Other Times it can be 117 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: triggered by the situation, like you're not going to think 118 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 2: about driving into oncoming traffic while you're you know, in 119 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 2: your chemistry class, Like it's while you're driving, right, So 120 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 2: there's some that are triggered by circumstances. And then you 121 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: also said that you're like, you're basically you're horrified by 122 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 2: the idea you're even having this thought. It's just totally out. 123 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 3: Of character for you. 124 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: So you put all that together, you have what essentially 125 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: is the call of the void. And I say we 126 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: go up to the tee and put the little baseball 127 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 2: or whiffle ball on top of the tee and knock 128 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: it out of the park. With the philosophers first, all. 129 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: Right, I will say this that the carecer guard stuff 130 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: really spoke to me me too. We're talking about Danish 131 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: philosopher Surin, I guess I don't know what the null 132 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: sign means. 133 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: So it's like an umlaut okay, so Surin, basically, I guess. 134 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: He talked about this idea that the callovoid call of 135 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: the void illustrates anxiety and in his case, and this 136 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: is the part that really spoke to me. He argued that, 137 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: and I think he's dead right. Actually, is that fear 138 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: is when outside forces are scaring you something that could 139 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: harm you from the outside. Anxiety is when that's turned 140 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: inward and that's emerging from your The threat is coming 141 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: from within their inside the house basically, and that house 142 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: is your brain. So the freedom to the freedom of 143 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: choice in life to move about the world, just to 144 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: choose what you do from moment to moment, you're constantly 145 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: making choices without knowing necessarily what the right thing to 146 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: do was. So when an anxiety can come from what 147 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: he called the dizziness of freedom, of that freedom specifically. 148 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And just the basis of anxiety is having 149 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: those choices, not knowing what's right, like you said, and 150 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: that because our lives are filled from moment to moment 151 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: with making a choice, not making a choice, which stills 152 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: a choice, just as Gedty Lee that, of course it's 153 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: going to create anxiety, which means anxiety is the human condition. 154 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: It's almost the basis of the human condition, is what 155 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 2: he was saying. So he kind of used that, or 156 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: used the call of the void to kind of demonstrate that, 157 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: essentially saying that you when you're up there on a precipice, 158 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: you're aware that you have the choice to just throw 159 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: yourself over, and just realizing that that is a choice 160 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: of that you can make right then, like you said, 161 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: no one's going to stop you having that freedom. Is 162 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: it's too much we like to think that, you know, 163 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: we don't have choices that we have metal, we have 164 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: a self preservation drive, we have all this stuff that 165 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 2: would prevent us from even ever considering that. And yet 166 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 2: whenever we experience the call of the void, it is 167 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 2: by definition experience experiencing that urge, like the realization that 168 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 2: we can choose that. And that's what kure Kaguard kind 169 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: of kicked the whole thing off with, I think in 170 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: the eighteen fifties. When you use that to illustrate anxiety 171 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 2: in humans. 172 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 3: Can we have a quick side chat? 173 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, what do they call them? 174 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 3: Not diversions tangents. 175 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one of our tangents about rush Okay, did 176 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: you hear me very quickly say Neil Pert, No, I didn't, 177 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: you said Getty Lee. Okay, Well Neil Pert wrote that. 178 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: Oh so I just quickly pointed that out. But that's 179 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: not what I was trying to point out. Okay, on 180 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: that record, and I remember this specifically. My brother and 181 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: I were listening to and looking over that LP which 182 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: you do. 183 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 2: What is that spirit of radio? 184 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, on the record is the lyric and if you 185 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: choose not to decide, Well, first of all, if you're 186 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: not a rushman. The lyric that they recorded was, if 187 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. 188 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 2: I feel like you have to say it like Geddy 189 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: Lee still out made a choice beautiful. 190 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: Uh So they recorded it like that. Neil Purt was 191 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: their lyricist. But on the record, my brother and I 192 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: notice it says if you choose not to decide, you 193 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 1: cannot have made a choice. 194 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: Oh well, they got that wrong. 195 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: They it was like on the album and he my 196 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: brother looked at me and laughed and like mimicked to 197 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: Gedty Lee, like crossing it out with a pencil like, well, 198 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,479 Speaker 1: Neil Purt wasn't looking. 199 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: And that is just always stood out to me. 200 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: Did Neil part write most of their lyrics or was it. 201 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 3: Just yeah, he was their lyricists. 202 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: I didn't know that. Okay, wasn't that crazy, But yeah, 203 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: he got that wrong big time. 204 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: Uh So back to it from Kuerker Guard, along those 205 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: same lines you talked about, is it Start. 206 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: That's what I've always said, Yeah, he doesn't. 207 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: Jean Jean Paul SARTs another philosopher, he talked about that 208 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: as the vertigo of possibility, basically the same idea as Carekerguard, 209 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: of like a literal dizziness of possibilities, and he kind 210 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: of leaned more into the you know, the freedom about 211 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: questions of our human experience, and he went down a 212 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: different road than Carekerguard ultimately did. But they both sort 213 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: of referred to it as a literal dizziness. 214 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, because a lot of people do experience 215 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 2: something akin to vertigo when they're looking down from a 216 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: high place, even if they're not afraid lights. 217 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: Right, Oh, I for sure do. Yeah, So it. 218 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 2: Does make sense that they would both use that. But 219 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: Start was definitely doing a big yes a and to carecreguard, 220 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: and I think he even calls out Careguard in the 221 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: section of being a nothingness. Right, But his whole jam 222 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 2: that he kind of took, the point that he took 223 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: it to was not only are you realizing, like you 224 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: have this freedom of choice, you also realize that your 225 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 2: future self has that same freedom of choice. And you, 226 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: the one who's making this choice right now not to 227 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: leap over this precipice for no good reason, has zero 228 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 2: control over whether you in the future future you is 229 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: going to make that same choice or not. And that 230 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 2: is a reason to be terrified of being alive. Essentially, 231 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:20,599 Speaker 2: is what Sart said. 232 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean not quite multiverse stuff, but it's 233 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: sort of along the same lines, like almost future future 234 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: multiverse maybe. 235 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, But what he was saying also is a lot 236 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: like kerky Guard, Like life is made up of choices 237 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: moment to moment to moment, And his whole thing is like, 238 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 2: there's no solid self, there's no you that exists. You know, 239 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 2: when you're born or even after you develop a little bit, 240 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: to the time you die, you are constantly you have 241 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: to constantly keep the self going by making essentially the 242 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: same decisions over and over again, and if you don't 243 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: have the same experience, say like terror when you're up 244 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: on a precipice and decide not to jump, If the 245 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: next time you're up there and you're not terrified, you 246 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 2: feel like, what's it like to fly, you might make 247 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: the same decision, even though it's out of character with 248 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: how you were before that. The self is that fluid essentially, 249 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 2: is what he was saying. 250 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he sort of related that to gambling or 251 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: the gambler who you know, like an addictive gambler who 252 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: quits gambling and you know, let's say years later they 253 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: walk by a gambling table and instead of seeing the 254 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: gambling table and immediately thinking like, God, that's the worst 255 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: thing that ever happened to me, the reaction is, well, 256 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: that was sort of a memory of a feeling that 257 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: I had, and in order to get back that true 258 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: feeling of I shouldn't do this, I can only do 259 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: that by doing it again. 260 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 3: Sort of like a not quite like rose colored glasses. 261 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: But I think everyone's sort of had that same feeling 262 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: about an X. 263 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 3: Before years later, where you're like. 264 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was so bad about that, should I give 265 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: them a call? When in fact it was a terrible 266 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: situation and like to give them the call and try. 267 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: I mean, John Cusack made a whole movie about it 268 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: to go back to and revisit, like the ex girlfriends, 269 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: And it's just constantly reminded, like the Gambler would be of, like, no, 270 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: this was a bad idea twenty years ago, it's not 271 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: a good idea now still. 272 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: Right, And the same thing holds you for like smoking 273 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: or something like that, Like when you decided to quit 274 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: smoking quick gambling, break up, Like you're in a certain 275 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: experience right then that you don't necessarily feel or experience 276 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: a year later, so you have to remind yourself like 277 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: to make that same decision again. Your future self could 278 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: make a different decision than you did right then and 279 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: you have no control over it. I know. 280 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: Pretty awesome, Right, Should we break or should we talk 281 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: about Gary Cox? 282 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: Let's finish with Gary Cox real quick, because I like 283 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: this guy's jib. 284 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: The cint of his jib. He's a British philosopher. We 285 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: can pronounce his name, so that's a plus. And he 286 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: looks at more as an existentialist kind of thing, where 287 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: we have these psychological defenses that we construct against thing, 288 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: but they're basically just all an illusion. It's things that 289 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: we make up to fool ourselves into thinking we have 290 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: an instinct for self preservation. 291 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's saying that. What Kierka Garden Sart are 292 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: both saying is essentially that we when we experience the 293 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: call of the void, that what's called bad faith as 294 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: far as existentialists are concerned. Anytime we delude ourselves, it's 295 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: a bad faith illusion essentially, that all of those are 296 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: just essentially us deluding ourselves, and it's laid bare by 297 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: the call of the void. Like, the only reason you're 298 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: not jumping right now is not because you have this 299 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: self preservation instinct, is not because you don't want to 300 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: do that to your family or anything like that. It's 301 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: because you are choosing right then not to jump. That's it. 302 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: It's the only thing that's preventing you from jumping right then. 303 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 2: And that scares the but Jesus out of anybody who 304 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: has a brain in their head when they experience the 305 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: call the void, especially when it's accompanied by the urge 306 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: to jump, not just the thought of jumping. 307 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so shall we break now. 308 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: Yes, look at that with the ball, go, we knocked 309 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 2: it out of the park. 310 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: We'll come back and we'll talk about these intrusive thoughts 311 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: that people are having right after this. 312 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: All right, Tuck, I feel like I should start with 313 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: a confession. I've been talking a lot of macho talk 314 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: about te balls and hitting it out of the park. 315 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: I used to strike out at T ball pretty often, 316 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 2: and they give you a lot more than just three 317 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: strikes before they tell you to go sit down, like 318 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: maybe seven eight, sometimes depending on the coach, and I 319 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: would still strike out and it happened more than once. 320 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, what was happening there? 321 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 2: What's happening there is? I was a terrible T ball player. 322 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 3: I didn't play T ball, so you know I didn't 323 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 3: have that experience. 324 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 2: But you know what t ball is, right. 325 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, you set a ball on a tee, it's not moving, 326 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: not going anywhere, and you've got a baseball bat in 327 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 3: your hand. 328 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought i'd feel better after admitting that, I 329 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: feel much worse. 330 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: Actually, well, you've told me that before, so I was 331 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: pre I felt bad for you back then. 332 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 3: It's funny. 333 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 2: Have I talked about it on the podcast or was 334 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 2: in private? 335 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: No, I was on the show, but that's okay. It 336 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: was years ago, Okay, Yeah, we've been doing this for 337 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: sixteen years. That's gonna happen what. 338 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 3: We promised. 339 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: Talk about intrusive thoughts and intrusive thought is defined base 340 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: as a thought that is not in character for you, 341 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: that you're thinking it. It's pretty bothersome and it's a 342 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: hard thing for you to control, and if you start 343 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: really digging in and worrying about it and looking for 344 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: meaning behind it, they can be very, very disruptive to 345 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: someone's life. 346 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're really a problem for people who have clinical 347 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: obsessive compulsive disorder. 348 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 349 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 2: The reason why there's such a problem is, I mean, 350 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 2: intrusive thoughts can affect anybody. You don't have to have OCD. 351 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 2: The problem that a companies OCD is that people will 352 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 2: try to find a way of coping with that intrusive thought. 353 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 2: And the classic example is being a germa feeling like 354 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: your hands are dirty, so you go wash your hands. 355 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 2: By washing your hands, you're coping with the sensation that 356 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 2: your hands are dirty, you have germs on your hands, 357 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: and you alleviate that by washing your hands. Well, if 358 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: you have an intrusive thought and the idea that your 359 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 2: hands are dirty is essentially constant, you're gonna spend a 360 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 2: lot of your time washing your hands, and it's going 361 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 2: to actually impact your life. That's a classic example of 362 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 2: somebody suffering from OCD. But if you take away the 363 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: you know, washing your hands to alleviate that stress from 364 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 2: the intrusive thought, you have what happens to basically anybody, 365 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: this thought that kind of comes out of nowhere. It's 366 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: often very, very troubling. There's a whole variety called morbid obsessions, 367 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: which is, you know, I could pick up that axe 368 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: and kill my whole family right now. And then you're like, 369 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: wait a minute, why am I thinking that? And you 370 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: feel horrible for that even crossing your mind because what 371 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 2: loving you know, husband, wife, child, would ever think of 372 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 2: something like that. And you start to go down that 373 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 2: road and you're too afraid to even bring it up 374 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 2: to anybody. You'll want to be like, hey, I just 375 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: thought of killing all of you guys with an axe. 376 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: Let's talk that out. So the more you keep it 377 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: to yourself and ruminate on it, the more terrifying it becomes. 378 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 2: And that is essentially the cycle of intrusive thought that 379 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,199 Speaker 2: can only be broken by essentially saying that was an 380 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: intrusive thought. I accept as an intrusive thought. I don't 381 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: actually want to kill my family with an axe. And 382 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: this kind of thing happens to everybody. 383 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, Lyvia pointed out she did a 384 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: great job with the school, by the way. 385 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: She knocked the cheek all out of the part she did. 386 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: Lyvia pointed out that this has led to a lot 387 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: of bad stuff, especially with people with OCD in the past, 388 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: with like the court system and like having children taken 389 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: away or something. Because the old idea, as far as 390 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: psychiatry is concerned or psycho analysis is concerned, was if 391 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: you're having these ideations, it's really a manifestation of your 392 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 1: unconscious desire. So if you have a thought about, you know, 393 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 1: drowning your children, and then all of a sudden, you're 394 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: going down this rabbit hole of like, oh my god, 395 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: how could I think that? And what is that all about? 396 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 3: Now? 397 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: And then you're just really drilling down into that because 398 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: you're horrified by it. You have now an analyst saying, oh, well, 399 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: that's really your unconscious desire, your honor or, ladies and 400 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: gentlemen of the jury. And so you get your children 401 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: taken away, and now they're saying like that's not true 402 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 1: at all, Like it's not an unconscious desire. It's someone 403 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: who's horrified by these thoughts that are obsessing about them 404 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: because they're horrified about it exactly. 405 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: And I think the very fact that you're horrified by 406 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 2: it shows you just how far you are from actually 407 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 2: committing that act. So, yeah, the idea that people used 408 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 2: to get their children it happened at least twice. I 409 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 2: could find two cases that happened fairly recently where mothers 410 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: in both cases confided in either their psychiatrist or their obgyn, 411 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: who both just turned around and called child protective Services 412 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: or the cops, you know. And just the idea that 413 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: they had it so backwards and that this happens everybody, 414 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: but they lost their kids because they sought help for it. 415 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,479 Speaker 2: That's just that's terrible. So I'm glad we figured out 416 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: that that's not the case, and the fact that it 417 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: can be treated pretty easily. You can even self treat 418 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 2: if you learn the steps to identifying an intrusive thought. 419 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 2: Saying it to yourself is just an intrusive thought. Like 420 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: I said, you don't want to do this, and that 421 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 2: this happens to everybody. If it's really bad and you 422 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: feel like you can't self treat, there are treatments you 423 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: can go seek that are also very effective. One of 424 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: them is exposure and response prevention. And one of the 425 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 2: examples I've seen is if you think about killing your 426 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: family with a butcher knife, your therapist will come to 427 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: your house and give you the butcher knife and sit 428 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: you on the couch next to your family and basically 429 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 2: be like, do you really want to kill your family, 430 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 2: because now's your time to do it if you want. 431 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: And I've seen that they actually will have say like 432 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 2: a father look at their son and be like, please 433 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: don't kill me son as part of this therapy. And 434 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: it works because you see firsthand like you could do 435 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 2: it right then, and you're just you don't want to, 436 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: You're not going, you're not moved to doing that. You 437 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: have control over your behavior, and you see it firsthand 438 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 2: right there, and that tends to actually help quite a bit. 439 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 2: And so the fact that that helps and you can 440 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 2: self treat shows that it is just a weird fluke 441 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 2: of human psychology and that it happens to everybody, including 442 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 2: really violent, terrible stuff that you can think about. Everyone 443 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 2: happens to everyone. 444 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And if we uncomfortably giggled during that part, it's 445 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: not because we don't think that that must be the 446 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: hardest thing in the world would be to sit down 447 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: and have a therapy session like that right with your family. Like, 448 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what that's like to sit down 449 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: and have to do something like that, so or what 450 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: it costs. 451 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I got a snort for that one. 452 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 3: Oh wow, you sure did. I don't do that much. 453 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: I guess we should talk about the studies. And when 454 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: I say study, I mean studies kind of one too. 455 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: There haven't been a ton of them. Lyvia dug up 456 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: a couple in twenty eleven, there was a psychologist named 457 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: Jennifer Haymes from Florida State. Along with her colleagues are 458 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 1: at Florida State. They're the people who coin the HPP 459 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: term high Places phenomenon. And they asked four hundred and 460 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: thirty one FSU students. 461 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, go fighting elione, I no, come. 462 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 3: On, seminoles, you know that. Yeah? Sure. 463 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: They asked four hundred and thirty one of their students 464 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: about their experiences with high place phenomenon. More than thirty 465 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: percent had experience that urged to jump, and among those 466 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,239 Speaker 1: who had never experienced suicidal ideation, because you know, when 467 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: they study something like this, they're trying to separate those 468 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: things out of just the call of the void and 469 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: someone who actually has thought about taking their own lives. 470 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, because Freud led everybody down a blind alley by 471 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 2: basically saying, oh, actually, this this is our innate drive 472 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: to want to kill ourselves. That's really at play, And 473 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 2: it turned out it's just not true at all. 474 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, So among those who had never experienced suicidal ideation, 475 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: there were still seventeen percent who had the urge to 476 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: jump at least one time. 477 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 3: And I believe. 478 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: Half of the people who had suicidal feelings said the same. 479 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: It was about the same number. 480 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 2: Right, And the researchers are like, this not quite track, Like, 481 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 2: let's reframe the question. And they asked the same people, 482 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: have you ever thought about jumping from a bridge or 483 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 2: a building? And they're like, oh, yeah, I've thought about 484 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 2: that for sure. That's what I'm saying. There's a difference 485 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 2: between just being up there and thinking like what would 486 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 2: happen if I did this the thought pops in your head, right, 487 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: or the urge where you have to push yourself away 488 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 2: from the balcony. Those are two slightly separate experiences, and 489 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 2: the just the thought popping in people's heads seemed as 490 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: to be the more common one. So when they reframed 491 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: the question like that seventy four percent of people who 492 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 2: had gone through suicidal ideation said yeah, I've done that. 493 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 2: Forty three percent of non suicidal ideators just say the 494 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: general population said that that happened to them. So almost 495 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 2: half of people walking around are like said like, yeah, 496 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: it's occurred to me to throw myself off the top 497 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: of a tall building. One I've been up there. And 498 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 2: even then Hames and her colleagues were like, I still 499 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: think that's a little small. And they've come up with 500 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 2: little ways to essentially say, like, some people are forgetting 501 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: that this actually happened to them. 502 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, and mine is always a thought. It's never a 503 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: true urge. But they you know, after this study, one 504 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: of the things that they talked about was sort of 505 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: like what you said with Freud, where they said, like, no, 506 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: this is not a manifestation of the death drive, of 507 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: the urge to take your own life, And they looked 508 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: at actual, you know, real cases of suicide. They looked 509 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: at previous research and all the data, and their argument was, 510 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, when someone takes their own life, it's rarely 511 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: a truly truly impulsive act, right. It's usually something that 512 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: has happened over time, and it's in a big sort 513 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: of accumulation of these ideations. And while the exact moment 514 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: may have some impulsivity to it, it's rarely just a 515 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: completely impulsive. 516 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: Act, right. And usually it's characterized by resolution more than 517 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 2: impulsiveness too, you know. 518 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 3: If the person is this is something I'm gonna. 519 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 2: Do, yes, exactly. So they basically said, Okay, Freud was 520 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: totally wrong, but still we think that some people don't 521 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 2: really remember that this happened. We think that more people 522 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 2: than say, forty three percent of the population have experienced this. 523 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: And one of the explanations they had was that one 524 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 2: thing we left out. They've found a huge correlation between 525 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 2: people who experience anxiety and people who have experienced the 526 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: high place phenomenon or the call of the void. Right. 527 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,959 Speaker 2: And so what Hames and her colleague said was, all right, 528 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 2: what we think happened is when you're anxious. When you're 529 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 2: an anxious person, you're more attuned to like internal signals yea, 530 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 2: and so you are experiencing those like more acutely, like 531 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: all the symptoms associated with it, like just being nervous 532 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 2: and just having like your stomach kind of topsy turvy, 533 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,439 Speaker 2: Like those symptoms stand out to you more. And so 534 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: those people remember having experienced to call the void more, 535 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: so they're more likely to report it. And that everybody, 536 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: most people probably experience this. It's just some people it 537 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: just so fleeting or whatever to them that they don't 538 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: remember it later on. I find that questionable, but that's 539 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 2: kind of how they explained it. 540 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they also sort of wrap their heads around 541 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: the idea that the call of the void is as. 542 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: A survival instinct. 543 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: It's kind of the opposite of what people, especially Freud, 544 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: had previously thought of it, is that it reflects a 545 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: survival instinct that we have to, you know, sort of 546 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: think about that in terms of framing it of how 547 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: they are appreciating being alive and not doing that. 548 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. So the scientific explanation O Koran, which means current, 549 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: is that when you're up there on a tall building 550 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 2: and you're looking over the edge or something like that, 551 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: your innate instinct, like say your lizard brain is like 552 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: jump back jack, and so it sends a fear signal, 553 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 2: and your rational brain, which is a little bit slower, 554 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: catches up and is like, hey, why am I feeling fear? 555 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 2: There's no danger here whatsoever. There's like a sturdy railing 556 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 2: and I've got like a solid floor beneath my feet. 557 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 2: I guess I'm afraid, or I guess I got a 558 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 2: fear signal because I had the urge to jump, And 559 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: that that's the call of the void. That it's a 560 00:29:52,120 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: miscommunication or misunderstanding of your physiology and your rational mind essentially, 561 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 2: and that that's what the called void is. I guess. 562 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: I mean that's certainly certainly jibes to a certain extent, 563 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: but I don't it still doesn't quite stand out to me, 564 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 2: like like carecer guards and SARTs explanations, Like I think 565 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: they just completely nailed it, I like like five whiffle 566 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: balls at once out of the park. 567 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they did the study and they had 568 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: data and stuff, but then there's a lot of just 569 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: philosophical extrapolation, right that you may not fully be on 570 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: board with. Yeah, there was another study, I think maybe 571 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: only the other the only other study I couldn't find 572 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: any other ones. No, huh, Tobias Ticeman and his other 573 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: coworkers there at ruher Univastett Boucham, this is in Germany. 574 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 2: That's the fighting ruh jers. 575 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, and they looked at a couple of 576 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: different samples of two hundred and seventy six people who 577 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: did an online survey, about half of them had experienced 578 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: suicidal ideation at some point. And then ninety four patients 579 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: who were being treated for flight phobia, like you know, 580 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: fear of flying in a plane, which used to have 581 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: pretty solidly but seemed to have gotten over pretty well. 582 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I did you know you. 583 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 3: Don't cover your head with a blanket anymore when you fly, 584 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 3: which is great. 585 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: No, it is, it's very nice, because that was tortuous. 586 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 3: Of course. 587 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: And along the lines of the Ham study, eighty percent 588 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: of the people who had experienced suicidal ideation had experienced HPP. 589 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: Forty five percent of those experienced HPP who hadn't experienced 590 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: or who hadn't gone through suicidal ideas. 591 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like exactly the same numbers, which is crazy. 592 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 2: And then it's crazy who was that it was supposed 593 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 2: to be walking but it's that was so bad. I'm 594 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 2: going to say, Colonel Sanders. 595 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 3: No no, no, no no. I got walking after you said it, so, 596 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 3: just like every great impression. 597 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: After I explained it. So, Tobias Tiesman, is that how 598 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 2: you pronounced his name earlier? 599 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 3: I think it's Tysman. I think it's the second letter 600 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 3: for Germany. 601 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: Okay, Tobias Ticsman at all. The same study also used 602 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 2: a different group, looked at a different group people who 603 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: suffer from clinical fear of heights acrophobia, and they found 604 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 2: that only forty five percent of them had ever experienced 605 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 2: high place phenomenon, which is basically tracking exactly with the 606 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: general population. So that shows that it really is not 607 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: it doesn't stem from a fear of heights, even though 608 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: there's other people that say that's exactly what it stems from. 609 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: And so then they the people that they were reporting 610 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: to and getting their funding from, said so, what'd you 611 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: learn about the fear of flying? And they said nothing, right. 612 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: Sorry, exactly, And Delta was like, man, yeah, you got 613 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: to stop funding these terrible studies. 614 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: Have you heard of this call of avoid thing? They're like, 615 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: oh jeez, we're only the second study. 616 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: So right, we'll get it someday, I say, we take 617 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: our second break and then come back and do more speculating. 618 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: All right, so Lyvia dug up some more, some more speculation, 619 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: which is what she called this section. 620 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 3: Actually what did she call this article? It was great. 621 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 3: I don't have my title page. 622 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 2: The Call of the Void. Don't pick it up? 623 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I promised Lyvia, We're going to use that as 624 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: the actual title one day. 625 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 2: Yep. 626 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 3: Is it going to be this one? 627 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 2: I think this might be. This might be a yeah, 628 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 2: that's a good one. 629 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 3: I think so. 630 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 2: And I added in it it's don't pick. 631 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 3: Up, don't pick up, yeah, which is even funnier. Actually 632 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 3: for sure. 633 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: There's a psychology professor from Britain, or researcher rather, named 634 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: Paul Salkovski who basically said, the thoughts of doing these, 635 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: you know, inappropriate things or dangerous things like the Call 636 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 1: of the Void are a result of our problem solving 637 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: process within the brain. So our subconscious just throwing something 638 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: out there, and then our rational brain getting an opportunity 639 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: to say, like, no, that's of course I'm not going 640 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: to jump off or jump off a bridge. 641 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 2: That's a terrible idea. And then your unconscious is like, 642 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 2: but you could. 643 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm down with that one. I'm not down with 644 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 3: that one. 645 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 2: Rather, Okay, I got one. So and I guess when 646 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 2: we're going back and forth like this, everybody should just 647 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 2: imagine us like we're going to break off and now 648 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 2: like you've backed off, like you did a little dance 649 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 2: to back out, and now I did a little dance 650 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 2: to back in or jump in. 651 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 3: Okay, So cardboards on the Pavement. 652 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 2: There's a really great article and Nautilus about this too. 653 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 2: I was a researcher named Adam Anderson who as a 654 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: cognitive neuroscientist at Cornell. I like this guy's idea. He 655 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 2: basically says that when we're on a tall building, we're 656 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 2: so just not designed to experience heights that it's not 657 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: exactly new. I mean, cliffs have been around for a 658 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 2: long time, but our experience of being high up is 659 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 2: far more frequent than it ever was in the past, 660 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: just even a few hundred years ago. Right, So when 661 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 2: we're up there, that lizard brain again is like, oh, 662 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 2: we're in danger. We're in danger, and that same lizard 663 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 2: brain says, let's get to safety as soon as possible. Hey, 664 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 2: there's the ground, it's safe to be on the ground. 665 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 2: Let's just jump and be on the ground. And luckily 666 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: our rational brain catches up in time and is like, no, 667 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 2: I get what you're saying, Like, yes, this is kind 668 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: of dangerous, but jumping to the ground is a really 669 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 2: terrible idea, and we're not going to do that. But 670 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 2: that that is the call of the void, that that's 671 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 2: what gives us that urge to jump. It's our dumb, 672 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 2: dumb on content his mind's seeking safety. 673 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting, I think. 674 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 2: Okay, you jumping in. 675 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll jump in. Okay, I'll pop in lock. 676 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,439 Speaker 1: Even though we said that it's not related to acrophobia, 677 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: there are people who think it is. There's an Oxford 678 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: psychologist named Daniel Freeman who said, no, it actually is 679 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: part of the trifecta of what you might experience if 680 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: you have a fear of heights, fear of falling, fear 681 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: that whatever you're on the bridge or whatever will collapse 682 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: beneath you, and then the third one, which is a 683 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: fear of jumping. 684 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 3: So he lumps it. 685 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: In there as part of the trio of things that 686 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: what he thinks make up acrophobia. 687 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 2: Or the fear of jumping part of it. He's saying, like, 688 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: is the call of the void or triggered by it? 689 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, that's the call of the void. 690 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: But he thinks it is a form of acrophobia. 691 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: Right exactly. I don't know. I didn't see much support 692 00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 2: for his but nah, yeah, there's a neuroscientists too, apparently 693 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 2: as a real pedant, because psychologists have been seeking to 694 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 2: basically discredit Freud's idea that the call of the void 695 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 2: is actually a manifestation of our urge to destroy ourselves, 696 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: you know, wrought large or writ large, right, And they 697 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 2: found like, no, that's not true. And Emil gabrielle Bruno, 698 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 2: who again as a neuroscientist, who was like, actually, there's 699 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 2: a there's a condition where you can actually have some 700 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 2: sort of pre funnel cortex damage and you'll violate social 701 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 2: norms left and right. They that person may actually follow 702 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 2: the urge of the call of the void. It could 703 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 2: actually result in somebody jumping, and everybody stopped inviting Emil 704 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 2: Gabriel Bruno to their conferences. 705 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with everybody there. Yeah, I don't need somebody 706 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: pointing that out. All kinds of terrible things can happen 707 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: when you have a damage to your. 708 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 2: Exactly do you want to end with Judith dan Koff, Yeah, 709 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 2: I'm going to sit down and let you take it home. 710 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: Judith Dankoff as a novelist who described the urge to 711 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: jump in Washington State from Deception Pass Bridge. I mean, 712 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,439 Speaker 1: just that name alone makes you want to do something weird. 713 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: I think as not a frightening thing, but like an 714 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: urge to fly. And that's sort of along the lines 715 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: of what I was talking about, not necessarily urged to fly, 716 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: but just sort of like to see what it's like, right, 717 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: you know. 718 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and hers was serious enough, for significant enough that 719 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: she just sat down in the middle of the bridge 720 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,919 Speaker 2: to make sure she didn't actually follow through on the urge. 721 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:44,720 Speaker 2: It was that strong. 722 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, and she quit knitting her Macromey wings. 723 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 2: You got anything else, No, sir, That's the call of 724 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 2: the void. Everybody don't feel weird if number one you 725 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,959 Speaker 2: experience it, and number two you feel like no one's 726 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: actually fully explained what it is because they haven't. And 727 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 2: since I said that, it's time for listener man. 728 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: This is just sort of a quick one that came 729 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: in today because I think a lot of people don't 730 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: know that this is the case, and we say it 731 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 1: from time to time, but this is about our bumper 732 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: music that we play between commercial and content. Yes, hey guys, 733 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: I've been listening to the show for several years now. 734 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: My hobby is woodworking, so I always listen with ear 735 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 1: muffs and Bluetooth built in built in bluetooth to protect 736 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: my ears and still hear the show. I enjoy the 737 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,840 Speaker 1: very jingles that you play at the beginning and the 738 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: end of the breaks. Even if I skip the ads, 739 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: I always make sure to listen to the jingles, and 740 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: I usually even sing along. Can you provide a collection 741 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: of these, I'm not the only one who loves them. 742 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 3: Keep up with the great info and the entertaining tunes. 743 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 3: That's from Rob and Rob. 744 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: We read this because, like I said, I don't think 745 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people realize that those are all one 746 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,479 Speaker 1: hundred percent of them are made by listeners. People send 747 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: them in. We don't use every single one of them. 748 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just you know, some. 749 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 3: Are better than others. 750 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: But we use most of them and we're always willing 751 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,479 Speaker 1: to listen to them. Keep under around twelve seconds long, 752 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: and that's kind of been one of the very fun 753 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: things of the show is hearing everyone's take on the 754 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know jingle theme. 755 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody has a favorite. Two. That's the coolest part 756 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 2: is you talk to Stuff you Should Know listeners and 757 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 2: everybody has their own favorite jingles. 758 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 759 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: And sometimes Jerry is invested enough in editing a particular 760 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: episode to try and be a little cheeky with some 761 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: particular style as it relates to topic. And sometimes that 762 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: happens purely by happenstance, and has even happened to our 763 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 1: disadvantage at times when people are like, Hey, why'd you 764 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: play that kind of music in this one? That's really 765 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: not too cool, and it's just like, oh, shoot, that 766 00:40:58,440 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: was an accident. 767 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember the one you're talking about too, and 768 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 2: I'm not going to name it either. Yeah, who was 769 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 2: that from? 770 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 3: That's from Rob. 771 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 2: That was awesome, Rob, thank you for asking that setting 772 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 2: us up like a d ball coach for that one. 773 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 2: If you want to be like Rob and get in 774 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 2: touch with us and ask us a question that we 775 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 2: can answer, we love to answer questions. And if you're 776 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,760 Speaker 2: a listener who has a little bit of musical talent 777 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 2: and you want to share a jingle, with us. We 778 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 2: would love that too. Either way, you can wrap it up, 779 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 2: spank it on the bottom, and send it off to 780 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 2: stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 781 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 782 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 783 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.