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Speaker 1: Quody Dynast, but Joseph's gotten more. I've been to Wichita

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Speaker 1: one time. It's kind of an interesting story. There was

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Speaker 1: a guy by the name of doctor William Eckert, and

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Speaker 1: doctor Eckert had a long and stored career as a

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist. And I was working in New Orleans at

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Speaker 1: the time, and I guess it was in the eighty

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Speaker 1: nine there was a massive tornado that ripped through that area.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it's been well documented over

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Speaker 1: the years for the reason of there was a reporter

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Speaker 1: that went beneath a overpass or some people call him

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Speaker 1: a viaduct, and they had the camera rolling as that

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Speaker 1: tornado swept across the top. Now, the reason I was

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Speaker 1: involved up there is that at the time doctor Eckert

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Speaker 1: thought that they had perhaps over two hundred dead. It

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Speaker 1: turned out that, though still tragic it was, the number

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Speaker 1: was much less. I like the people up there. You

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Speaker 1: can learn a lot about people in an area when

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Speaker 1: they're under stress. I've always wanted to go back, but

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Speaker 1: haven't made it yet. But today we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about a case out of witch Tak that's come across

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Speaker 1: my desk, and it's involving a single death, a single

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Speaker 1: death that is so incredibly bizarre. And you know, up

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Speaker 1: to this date, brother Dave and I have yet to

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Speaker 1: talk about a case involving this specific mechanism. I'll give

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Speaker 1: you a hint, Ben Franklin. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and

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Speaker 1: this is body bats Dave. You know, reflecting back to

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Speaker 1: that time when I was in witchtab do you know

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Speaker 1: I saw a full grown horse in a tree. They

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Speaker 1: took us through the area that had been just wiped

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Speaker 1: out per this tornado. Wow. And it was right adjacent

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Speaker 1: to the Air Force base and CESSNA is up there,

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Speaker 1: their headquarters is there, and I don't know if beachcraft

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Speaker 1: is up there in all that area. And you know, Dave,

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Speaker 1: this happened on a Friday afternoon during rush hour, and

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Speaker 1: I would think that, you know, obviously you would think

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Speaker 1: there were more desk. Do you remember seeing that video

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Speaker 1: of that reporter. Yeah, I urge anybody to go take

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Speaker 1: a look at it. It's chilling because they tracked this

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Speaker 1: thing and back then, you know, we see stuff all

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Speaker 1: the time on the news now like this, but back then,

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Speaker 1: this is a big deal. And they tracked this thing

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Speaker 1: as it passed over the overpast.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I never remember it, but I don't remember

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Speaker 2: it in the time. You know, It's just one of

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Speaker 2: those things that kind of comes back. But my first

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Speaker 2: thought was when you were talking about a horse and

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Speaker 2: a tree, I was thinking, Okay, where was the yellow

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Speaker 2: brick road and was the horse of a different color?

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Speaker 1: There were no red shoes sticking out under a house,

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Speaker 1: that's for sure, but yeah, yeah it was. It was terrifying.

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Speaker 1: But you know, Dave, today we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: a case that is, first off, it's not it's tragic,

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Speaker 1: uh in not necessarily surprising because it does it starts

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Speaker 1: off with the intention to commit theft.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is brutally yeah, in the middle of

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Speaker 2: a theft, you know, it's in the commission of a crime,

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Speaker 2: and that actually adds to the charges on this.

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Speaker 1: We just kind of interesting health.

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Speaker 2: But you know, again, now I go back to Joseph'sott

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Speaker 2: Morgan teaching me to look at the finder, you know,

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Speaker 2: and in this particular case, the finder being the person

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Speaker 2: who calls nine one one and her first story I'm

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Speaker 2: not kidding. Molly Hovered, thirty six years old, says she's

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Speaker 2: driving down the street It's five thirteen am and she

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Speaker 2: sees a man on fire and calls nine one one. Now,

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Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I've lived several decades

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Speaker 2: and in my life I've never seen anyone on fire

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Speaker 2: in real life. In front of me, Michell, I's at

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Speaker 2: five thirteen in the morning, driving down the road.

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Speaker 1: I have I have. You want to know when it was? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I do. It wasn't in the road, you know. No,

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Speaker 1: I've got to tell you, this is a real slice

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Speaker 1: of life. Holy moly, Okay, here we go. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: end in a fatality, thankfully.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember how it is when you first getting

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Speaker 1: married and you can't stand being apart from one another.

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Speaker 1: When Kimmy and I first got married, she had candles

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Speaker 1: all over the house, okay, everywhere, you know, and they

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Speaker 1: were literally like she put a candle on the back

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Speaker 1: of the toilet. And I know everybody does that, but

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Speaker 1: I was in the shower. I was actually getting ready

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Speaker 1: to go to work that evening. And she's sitting there

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Speaker 1: and she's always had this thick, beautiful blonde hair, and

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Speaker 1: of course it's got hairspray in it, all right. She's

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Speaker 1: sitting in there while I'm taking a shower and she

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Speaker 1: is chatting with me, right and I'm trying to listen

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Speaker 1: over the pounding of the water, you know, all that

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff. And she said something I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've ever talked to anyone while you're taking a shower,

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Speaker 1: And it's like you got to pull back the curtain

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Speaker 1: to like look at them like that. It's like to

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Speaker 1: make the emphasis on it. I just so happened to

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Speaker 1: pull the curtain back at that moment in time and

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Speaker 1: looked at her to respond to what she had said. Dave,

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Speaker 1: the back of her hair was on fire, and she

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Speaker 1: had sat on the toilet and the candle was immediately

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Speaker 1: behind her and her hair ignited. So guess what I did.

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Speaker 1: I didn't stop dropping roll. I pulled down the shower curtain,

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Speaker 1: soaking wet, I'm naked, soaking wet, and I wrap it

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Speaker 1: around her head and she's screaming, where are you doing?

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Speaker 1: What are you doing? And suddenly and there's a smell

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Speaker 1: that comes along with burning hair, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: know everybody out there recognizes, and that smell just kind

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Speaker 1: of enveloped the area. But I can tell you this,

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Speaker 1: I didn't leave my wife there to watch her hair

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Speaker 1: be completely consumed and her wind up having to go

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Speaker 1: to the hospital. And in this particular case, my Lord

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Speaker 1: in Heaven day.

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Speaker 2: Dude, I'm just thinking, Okay, after everything was said and done,

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Speaker 2: how was Kimmy's hair and did he get a bunch

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Speaker 2: of she had?

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Speaker 1: It was? It was kind of an inverted V for

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Speaker 1: a while. And she'll laugh about it. Now. I ask,

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Speaker 1: you know, if y'all are out there and you see

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Speaker 1: some crom connor anything, ask her about the hair on

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Speaker 1: the toilet story. And so it was kind of an

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Speaker 1: inverted V. It burns maybe four to five inches of

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Speaker 1: her hair.

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Speaker 2: I am not about to call it the hair on

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Speaker 2: the toilet story, Joe, Okay. I'm just saying, all right,

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Speaker 2: we're going to move forward with this. Because Molly Hubbard

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Speaker 2: is thirty six years old driving down the road and

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Speaker 2: calls nine one one because she sees a man on fire.

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Speaker 2: That's the story. Now, the truth is obviously somewhat different.

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Speaker 2: I say, obviously, but we've already started off weird. It's

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Speaker 2: in the middle of summer too, July seventeenth, and she

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Speaker 2: calls nine one one. And here's the part that I

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Speaker 2: found really interesting that the nine one one operator can

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Speaker 2: hear the man moaning in the background as Molly is

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Speaker 2: calling you nine one one to say, Joseph Ryan is

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Speaker 2: on fire or Ryan Crawford rather, and the operator can

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Speaker 2: hear him moaning, and Molly turns and says, hey, man,

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Speaker 2: stop drop and roll. And I thought immediately, that's something

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Speaker 2: you learned in elementary school. Stop drop and roll. What

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Speaker 2: a great thing. Stop drop and roll. And anyway, when everything,

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Speaker 2: when the smoke cleared, police are on the way, and

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Speaker 2: they all arrive really fast too. I mean we're talking

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Speaker 2: in a matter of minutes here and any way, you

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Speaker 2: look at it, and we're in Wichitah. We did say that,

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Speaker 2: just start off, just reminding you now. And police and

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Speaker 2: MS arrive on scene very quickly. But the collar, the

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Speaker 2: nine woman collar is not there. The person who reported

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Speaker 2: the fire not there. That becomes part of the story. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So here we go. Officers arrive on scene and before

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Speaker 2: before the victim here is sedated, which I cannot imagine

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Speaker 2: the pain, Joe, I really can't.

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Speaker 1: And I was, I was thinking about this, and I

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Speaker 1: thought they may have given him a bullus of war.

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Speaker 1: It's a bolus is like a shot, Okay, So one

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Speaker 1: of things I was thinking that they may have given

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Speaker 1: him is a drug called adavan, which is an anti

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Speaker 1: anxiety medication, and they carry it on the truck, or

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Speaker 1: at least they used to, and they'll give it to

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Speaker 1: people that come into into an emergency room that are

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Speaker 1: having like panic attacks or they're really injured. You don't

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Speaker 1: want to give them something like an opiate that's going

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Speaker 1: to like drive, but it kind of puts you in

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Speaker 1: this kind of milky state. You know, you would still

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Speaker 1: feel the pain. And I don't know that this for

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Speaker 1: a fact, but that's the first thing I thought about. Well,

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Speaker 1: maybe it was adavan, you know, that was given to

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Speaker 1: this guy. But I'm sorry, I mean, step.

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Speaker 2: On, no, no, no. But the thing is is that

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Speaker 2: that's I had a note to ask you about this

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Speaker 2: because as much pain as he is obviously in YEP,

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Speaker 2: they still have to get answers from him. Before that,

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Speaker 2: their first thought is to get him out of pain,

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Speaker 2: to lock him down, because you know, he's screaming, and

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Speaker 2: before they you do that, they have to find out

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Speaker 2: as much as they can, meaning the police and MS.

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Speaker 2: So before he is sedated, he's able to talk to

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Speaker 2: them and he tells police that he entered this building

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Speaker 2: nearby with another person that he did not know to

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Speaker 2: get out of the rain. They go inside the building

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Speaker 2: and they hear a pop. Something kind of exploded, igniting

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Speaker 2: his clothing. That is the story, So the story police get.

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Speaker 2: I'm walking down the street at five point thirteen give

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Speaker 2: or take, and it's raining, and lo and behold there's

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Speaker 2: another person I don't know who it is walking down

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Speaker 2: the street five thirteen am. I'm thinking in Wichitak, Kansas,

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Speaker 2: July seventeenth, going out for an early morning stroll, obviously

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Speaker 2: not an uncommon occurrence. So you meet somebody you've never

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Speaker 2: seen before, and both of you dart into this building building.

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Speaker 2: So that's where that's what police hear from the victim

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Speaker 2: before he is then sedated and taken, you know, to

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Speaker 2: the hospital for treatment. Joe, the injuries this man suffered,

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Speaker 2: I don't understand first, second, third degree burns. I know

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Speaker 2: what I have an idea about, you know, but I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping that you will enlighten us as to what this

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Speaker 2: poor man was going through. And I'm also kind of

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Speaker 2: curious because they do mention that he was burned on

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Speaker 2: his backside, and my first thought was because we refer

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Speaker 2: to backside with children meaning they're butt yeah, spanking, But

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Speaker 2: when it's used in this term is a medical term.

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Speaker 2: You know that he was burned on his backside. I

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Speaker 2: was trying to figure out what that actually really meant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if that term backside actually comes

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Speaker 1: from comes from the medical personnel, because generally they're going

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Speaker 1: to say posterior. It was in a police report. Oh okay,

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Speaker 1: well yeah and okay, so yeah, and it's okay you

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Speaker 1: know that he said that because we are the person,

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Speaker 1: the writer of the report who's going to be the

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Speaker 1: initial responding officer that would take charge of this. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, generally, you know they're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: posterior anterior. I'll give you a reason why we use

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Speaker 1: that term, like did you know that, for instance, when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the the various planes of the body,

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Speaker 1: you have an anterior chest, which means like upfront with

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Speaker 1: your sternam is your breast, this sort of thing. We

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Speaker 1: also have a posterior chest too, and people always say back,

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Speaker 1: all right, that's my back. Well, if you go between

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Speaker 1: your shoulder blades and also well includes your shoulder blades,

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Speaker 1: that's your posterior back Joe, what.

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Speaker 2: Does it actually really mean in medical terms? Backside?

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Speaker 1: Right? Right? So anytime I hear a backside, it can

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Speaker 1: be your rear end, or it can actually be be

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Speaker 1: referencing like you your posterior, and your posterior can involve

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Speaker 1: literally all the way up to your shoulder blades, okay,

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Speaker 1: the back of your neck. So it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: make sense of this. What we do know is that

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Speaker 1: it would appear Dave. And this is what one of

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Speaker 1: the reports is actually saying, is that he was I

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Speaker 1: want to say, fully involved, or that there was evidence

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Speaker 1: that he had been fully involved in flame. Just think

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Speaker 1: about that just for a second. How horrible that is.

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Speaker 1: So his his clothes. This is what it comes down to.

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Speaker 1: You will your you're It would be very difficult to

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Speaker 1: set your flesh on fire, all right, without having without

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Speaker 1: having some kind of igniter or accelerant, okay, like you're

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Speaker 1: bathed in gas or something. His clothes caught on fire,

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Speaker 1: So he's inside the shell of clothing, all right, Just

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Speaker 1: imagine it that way, and this thing is burning all

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Speaker 1: around him, and there's really no way if he's been abandoned,

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Speaker 1: there's really no way to put this out. He's in

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Speaker 1: excruciating pain. So yeah, I mean back to what you

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Speaker 1: earlier said, drop and roll, it would be one thing.

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Speaker 1: But you know you said he was moaning, or that

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Speaker 1: was what had been said initially. I can't imagine moaning.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine screaming. Okay, So was the flame already

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Speaker 1: out by the time she had made this comment and

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Speaker 1: she bolts out of the location. Had the flame already

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Speaker 1: gone out? I don't know. You know, you have to

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Speaker 1: consider how long? How long had he burned, so it

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Speaker 1: would be the clothing is actually a few source, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I have worked cases both at the scene and then

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Speaker 1: back at the morgue where we have When you have

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Speaker 1: these fire cases, you will have clothing that is burned

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Speaker 1: to a crisp and it is literally adherent to the

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Speaker 1: underlying flesh. And this doesn't just happen with the dead,

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Speaker 1: it happens with the living as well. I think that

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Speaker 1: some of the most saintly people on the face of

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Speaker 1: the planet are people that work on burn units. It

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Speaker 1: is one of the most if you've never been on one,

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Speaker 1: which I have not for me personally, but working cases,

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Speaker 1: it is literally one of the most horrific sites to

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Speaker 1: behold and what these people have to do every day

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Speaker 1: to literally keep people alive after sustaining these types of

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Speaker 1: injuries would make most people shocked to their core. So

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Speaker 1: let's just say he did in fact have clothing that

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Speaker 1: was still adherent to him, which is a high probability.

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Speaker 1: They have to go in and clean that area and

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Speaker 1: peel that stuff off. And that's just the outer shell.

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Speaker 1: Because you know with fires, people that are subjected to fire,

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Speaker 1: there's this whole process of having to scrub the skin.

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Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people have heard that

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Speaker 1: over the years. It is incredibly, incredibly painful. You hear

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Speaker 1: people that have survived on burn units and they talk

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Speaker 1: about the worst part and it's actually scrubbing the skin.

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Speaker 1: And you know, as it turns out, this guy, I

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Speaker 1: think he, if I'm not mistaken, he lingered for like

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Speaker 1: three to four days on the burn unit there, in

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Speaker 1: which Todd didn't he do it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah he did three days. Yeah, it was the shocking,

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Speaker 2: beyond shock, you know that after what you're describing of

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Speaker 2: what he went through with the trauma and the fire.

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Speaker 2: And again he talks to police before they sedate him,

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Speaker 2: and I would hope that for the from there on out.

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Speaker 2: He didn't feel, was not conscious of the pain that

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Speaker 2: was inflicted on his body. But yeah, it was. It

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Speaker 2: was a couple of days he laid there, he did

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Speaker 2: have And the thing is is that he while he's

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Speaker 2: he's having surgeries because they've got to try to they're

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Speaker 2: trying to ughing. Yeah, and anyway, so that's yeah, there

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Speaker 2: were there were a couple of days there where he

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Speaker 2: was suffering. They were doing surgeries to try to save

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Speaker 2: his life. Uh, but it finally got him and he

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Speaker 2: did pass.

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Speaker 1: Burns are one of the most insidious kinds of injuries,

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Speaker 1: and it's so insulting. You know, we have to remember

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Speaker 1: that our our skin is actually an organ, right, and

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Speaker 1: it's part of you know, you learn about systems, skeletal system,

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Speaker 1: you know, cardiovasco system. Well, the skin is actually part

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Speaker 1: of what's called integumentary system. And so I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: somebody will nail me in my pronunciation out there for that.

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Speaker 1: But that is a living organ, okay, and it reacts.

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Speaker 1: It reacts, and when it is kind of knocked down

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Speaker 1: by an insult like flame. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: happens is you have all of these infections that set

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Speaker 1: in and in the end many times that's what winds

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Speaker 1: up killing people. Uh you know that that have been

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Speaker 1: subjected to fire. You you'll have widespread u septosemia that

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Speaker 1: will set in, you know, uh, system wide infections and

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Speaker 1: they're really that's that's why these people that work on

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Speaker 1: burn units, I'm always fast. It's it is literally one

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Speaker 1: of these jobs. I think in medicine that is a calling,

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Speaker 1: Like you got to want to be there, all right,

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Speaker 1: no insult to people that work on med search or

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Speaker 1: Mercy Room or anything like that. You have to want

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Speaker 1: to physically be in that environment. How fer specialized.

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Speaker 2: Really big heart for dealing with families and extended you

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Speaker 2: know what the are going through.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to. And these people are in this

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Speaker 1: kind of milky state because you're right, they have to

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Speaker 1: keep them sedated. And that's another fine line because they're

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Speaker 1: going to have respiratory problems as a result of this.

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Speaker 1: And if you go back, you know how we talked

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Speaker 1: about that initial bolus to try to get him calmed down.

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Speaker 1: That's different than getting them on some kind of pain

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Speaker 1: med because you're wondering is this going to impact? And

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Speaker 1: these people are a lot smarter than I am, But

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking one of the problems is is that

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Speaker 1: the more of these drugs you give them, it can

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Speaker 1: impact the way they breathe. It also impacts the way

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Speaker 1: their heart functions. Okay, So it is once fire is

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Speaker 1: introduced into a circumstance involving someone's life and when death

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Speaker 1: is at hand, it is one of the most complex

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Speaker 1: and overwhelming situations for any clinician to be involved with.

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Speaker 1: In case of Brian Crawford, there in witch talk, when

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Speaker 1: law enforcement officials began to you know, after that initial shock,

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Speaker 1: when they roll up and they're trying to get him

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Speaker 1: out of there, I think the focus begins to kind

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Speaker 1: of tighten a little bit relative to what actually really

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Speaker 1: happened at the scene, because you know, it's in those

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Speaker 1: quiet still moments, you know, after the chaos kind of

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Speaker 1: dies down, you can begin to think as an investigator

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Speaker 1: and Dave, they they found some interesting things to say

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Speaker 1: the very least.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, starting with what our victim told police,

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Speaker 2: you know, before being sedated. Ryan Crawford. Again, this is

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Speaker 2: a thirty six year old man and before he is sedated,

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Speaker 2: you know, the damage that he's already suffered, and he

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Speaker 2: tells police. You know that he went into a building

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Speaker 2: with another person that he didn't know to get out

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Speaker 2: of the rain and something popped or exploded, igniting his clothing.

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Speaker 2: That is what Crawford told police. So as the building

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Speaker 2: was a vacant industrial building and it's still had active electricity.

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Speaker 2: So as police are still on the scene, there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of smoke going on and they kind of

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Speaker 2: had to wait for the smoke to clear to actually

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Speaker 2: go in and begin an investigation. You know, what really happened,

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Speaker 2: they have to know. And once the smoke cleared, they

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Speaker 2: found when the gun inside that there was an electronic

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Speaker 2: control board, a control panel rather and the damage is

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Speaker 2: to go to the end of this four hundred thousand

356
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Speaker 2: dollars minimum four hundred thousand dollars minimum damage. What they

357
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Speaker 2: found was a piece of his burnt shirt. This is

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Speaker 2: the once the smoke cleared and they could actually get

359
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Speaker 2: in there, you got the burned shirt. Then Joe, they

360
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Speaker 2: find a screwdriver, a flashlight, a cell phone, and a

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Speaker 2: bag of tools that could best be described as a

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Speaker 2: burglary kit. Now again, remember the time of day, it's

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Speaker 2: in the five o'clock am hour. July seventeen, Wich tak Kansas,

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Speaker 2: and police are trying to figure out how did this

365
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Speaker 2: man catch on fire? He said it was raining. I

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Speaker 2: went into this building with somebody I didn't know to

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Speaker 2: get out of the rain and poof, And they get

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Speaker 2: in there and find well, it looks like that maybe

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Speaker 2: something else was taking place inside this building. Now police

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Speaker 2: bring in an arson investigator. And I'm going to assume

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Speaker 2: Joe and please correct me that if you have a fire, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and police are investigating, they have to bring in an

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Speaker 2: arsen guys, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and arson investigators. As for my money, are some

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Speaker 1: of the most underappreciated forensic practitioners that are out there

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Speaker 1: because most of them, in the public's mind, are not

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Speaker 1: associated with forensics. But I submit that they have the

378
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Speaker 1: broadest skill set of any group of people out there

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Speaker 1: within the forensics community. I mean, they have to understand chemistry, physics,

380
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Speaker 1: they have to understand the nature of fire, and they

381
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Speaker 1: also have to know a goodly portion of my job

382
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Speaker 1: as well. Relative to medical legal death. They always attend.

383
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Speaker 1: They're great about attending autopsies. There's a lot of law

384
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Speaker 1: enforcement people out there that will not come to autopsies

385
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Speaker 1: or they they'll say, I don't have the time or

386
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Speaker 1: something like that. Not the arson guys. They're always in

387
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Speaker 1: the autopsy suite, and in my experience, they will show

388
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Speaker 1: up because they need data, because they had this scientific mind.

389
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Speaker 1: They're trying to put all of these pieces together with

390
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Speaker 1: those observable manifestations they're seeing. It's seen like in this

391
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Speaker 1: particular case where you have this box and they're trying

392
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Speaker 1: to explain it regarding how did this ignition take place?

393
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Speaker 1: And they want to see evidence, say, for instance, on

394
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Speaker 1: the body is there because lots of times let's just

395
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Speaker 1: go down the road of electrocution here. If you have

396
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Speaker 1: someone that has been electrocuted many times, you will see

397
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Speaker 1: for instance, just one fot area on their body and

398
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: it might be tiny. It's see, how can I describe it?

399
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Speaker 1: It's not a needle in a haystack. But you've got

400
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Speaker 1: to be really careful. Like if you suspect electrocution, there

401
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: might be a central point of entry and it might

402
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: be let's see the size of an English p and

403
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: it'll be black, and that's where the electricity actually entered

404
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 1: to the body, passed through the body, and there will

405
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: be an exit many times, okay, where it's trying to

406
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: escape and your body becomes a big conductor. And so

407
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Speaker 1: if we can, like, for instance, if it's one thing

408
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Speaker 1: like I had a guy that was electrocuted in Atlanta,

409
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Speaker 1: for instance, and his point of entry was not on

410
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Speaker 1: his hands, right, we experienced the world through our hands,

411
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Speaker 1: even as the little kids were very tactile. This guy

412
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,959
Speaker 1: actually was in an attic, Dave, trying to work on

413
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Speaker 1: a vent fan and he stood up and the entrance

414
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: point was on the back of his neck because there

415
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 1: was a an open wire there that was hot and

416
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Speaker 1: it entered through here. We found an exit point on

417
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: the on his well, his back's hot that that passed

418
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Speaker 1: through his body. And you know, he had a kodiac arrhythmia,

419
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Speaker 1: which is how you die most of time with electrocutions.

420
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Speaker 1: That manifested. He was dead up there, and somebody found

421
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: him I think two weeks later. Wow. And so that

422
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: made it even more difficult because but you know, Dave,

423
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Speaker 1: with this fellow, we're not we're not talking about a

424
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Speaker 1: we're not talking about electrocution. It sounds like an electric

425
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: that electricity is involved, but this is not like a classic.

426
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: It is, however, what's referred to as an arcing event. Okay,

427
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 1: and event well, you've got like four different types of

428
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: arcs that can happen, And so what you're looking at

429
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: is the electricity, which in and of itself is so

430
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: incredibly powerful. I've always been there's certain things that I

431
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: don't like to deal with, just based on my experience

432
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: and plus my survival instinct. I don't. I've got friends

433
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: that will do wiring and all. That's never me. Never,

434
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: I would never. I'm terrified of it. I have a

435
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: real healthy respect for electricity. But what happens is if

436
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: you'll just imagine, if you contact an area like on

437
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: this board that he was dealing with, which by the way,

438
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,239
Speaker 1: delivered four hundred four hundred volts of electricity more than

439
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: sufficient to create a very terminal event, you will have

440
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: an ARC that will come off of that area. Now

441
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: that arc is if you'll just imagine kind of a

442
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: bright blue light kind of coming off of it, but

443
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: and it initiates an explosion in this case. So you've

444
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: got like four different categories. The main category that we're

445
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: focused on here is an explosive arc. And so this

446
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 1: is like a bomb going off, and it's a ball

447
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: of fire that essentially leaches you know. And here's why

448
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: I know his death is not it's electrically related, but

449
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: it is not an electrocution. So as he is probably

450
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: making contact with this board. You remember you were talking

451
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: about the burglary tools. Yeah, he's got this massive screwdriver

452
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: in his hand. Well, he's either prying something or trying

453
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: to unscrew something, and for some reason he touched it.

454
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: He touched a hot area and when he did this

455
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 1: explosion and lord knows, Yeah, you had clouds of smoke

456
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: that were in there. Remember the first responders rolling in there.

457
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: You had clouds of smoke, and yeah, he had caught

458
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: on fire. But also this was an explosion. You would

459
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: still in this contained area if you got there quickly,

460
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: you would still see smoke floating in the rafters up there. Okay,

461
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: all right, and it can be related to that explosive event.

462
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: I think the big reason here is if you're in

463
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: a warehouse, it would seem to make sense that you

464
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: would want as much power as you can to visualize

465
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: something if you're burglarized in an area, So why in

466
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:35,959
Speaker 1: the world would somebody want to monkey around with the

467
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: electrical box and shut down the power. I think that's

468
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: that's a big, big part of this, Dave.

469
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: Well, you know, one of the things that the investigation,

470
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: what was found out during the investigation was this building

471
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: was vacant. It is a building however that was a

472
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: target for thieves. It had a lot of copper and

473
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: they had been dealing The owner of the building have

474
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: been dealing with that as an ongoing issue, the theft

475
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: of copper from this building, and based on the tools

476
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: that were found, based on again, you've got a story

477
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: that really doesn't make any sense. You're driving down the

478
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 2: road at five o'clock in the morning, you see a

479
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: man on fire and you call nine one one, but

480
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: you you know, you stop for a moment, but leave

481
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: before help gets there. That again, immediately you're going really so,

482
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: the investigation finds out that it appears that there were

483
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: two people there attempting to steal copper and inside this

484
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: building in that pre dawn hour there was an igniting

485
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: force causing an arc that caused mister Ryan his clothing

486
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: to catch on fire, and then he and the other

487
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: suspect bolted the building and called nine one one. But Joe,

488
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: the part about all of this that even gets weirder

489
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: if it can, is that as police were investigating. Okay,

490
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: it's a big story. You know, a guy gets on

491
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: a car, he's on fire, and he doesn't survive initially

492
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: and goes to the hospital. You know, Crawford was actually

493
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: in the middle of surgery when he died. They were

494
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: doing surgery on this man two days after it all

495
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: happened and when he passed, and it was his passing

496
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: that led to the break in the case. Molly Hubbard's

497
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: mom picked up the phone and said, hey, my daughter

498
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: was there. My daughter is the one that called nine

499
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: one one, and that's where police got the break They

500
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: needed Joe, and you know what they found out. Please

501
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: Molly Hubbard calls nine one one, but leaves before they

502
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: get there, and she they asked, well, why would you

503
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: do that? Why would you leave this man burning? Why

504
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: would you what's you know what? I can hear police

505
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: in their head every day. What is wrong with you? You know?

506
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

507
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: Does your brain work exactly? And it's like, you know

508
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: what she told them. The reason she left. She has

509
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: a driver's license issue. I'm guessing it's suspended, you know,

510
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: something along those lines. But that's why she left. That

511
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: was her reason for leaving this man to die, which

512
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: is what appalled her mother, which is what made her

513
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: mom pick the phone and called police.

514
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, she says, yeah. I mean in cases that we

515
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: cover that are in the news, I won't say that

516
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: we cover. But when you have parents that cover for

517
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: their kids. Yeah, and wow, for a mom to stand

518
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: up and say, this is just this is beyond the

519
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: pale and she's really in the middle of it now, Oh, Molly,

520
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: Molly Hubbard is because the level of cruelty here, Dave.

521
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: Let me put it to you this way, if she

522
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: had reacted in a humane way, Okay, if she had

523
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: resisted her fight flight instinct or however you want to ternament,

524
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: which I'm sure her defense team will, if she had

525
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: reacted where she had jumped on him immediately and maybe

526
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: tried to knock down, we might be talking maybe first degree,

527
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: maybe lesser second degree burns. But now you've got an

528
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: individual who is probably covering the spectrum here relative to burns,

529
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,479
Speaker 1: I'm thinking probably second and third degree. And with these,

530
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: when you think about burns, we grade them and we

531
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: grade them by degrees. And I got to tell you, folks,

532
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: there's not just three degrees of burning. They're actually four,

533
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: you know, you hear or see headlines where people will

534
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: say there will be some newsy that will write something

535
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: out and you'll say, individual burned to death today in

536
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: a car fire or whatever the case might be, or

537
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: in a house fire. It's rare that you find someone

538
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: that literally burns to death. Okay, they succumb generally as

539
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: a result of the fire and what the products of

540
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 1: that fire are. For instance, most of the time it's

541
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: going to be like smoke inhalation, that sort of thing. However,

542
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: there are those cases where you have these degrees of

543
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: burning where you can have an event where a subject

544
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: will be burned so severely that it can lead just

545
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: like electricity can. It can lead to say, for instance,

546
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: cardiac a arrhythmia, you know where the heart you know,

547
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: starts to spasm essentially for lack of a better term.

548
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: But okay, so first agree burns for folks that don't know,

549
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: are they essentially just you know, impact the epidermis, which

550
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: the epidermis of the skin is that top layer you

551
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: can you know, maybe think about a sunburn, all right,

552
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: and how your skin peels and that sort of thing.

553
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: Then you got second agree burn, which goes it's not

554
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: just epi means top, so epidermis's first degree. If you

555
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: go down deeper, you get into the dermis, okay, which

556
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: is below that top layer of skin. And so you're

557
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: starting now to get into these areas that can be

558
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: pretty severely infected or affected by the heat. Most of

559
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: these things are survivable, all right. With second degree. Now

560
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: you get into third degree, and this is what's referred

561
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: to as a full thickness burn, and this goes through

562
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: all of the layers of the skin. You're going to

563
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: have charring. Many times, you'll see you know, black brown,

564
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: You'll get nerve damage, these sorts of things, and this

565
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: can in fact lead to death because you've impacted that

566
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: those layers of skin to the point where you're really

567
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: inviting infection over a long period of time. But Dave,

568
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 1: did you know that there's actually a fourth degree burn?

569
00:36:59,360 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: No?

570
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, no I didn't. Yeah, there there actually is, and

571
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: we see them very commonly in the morgue. And that's

572
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: where you actually have muscle and bone visible. Oh yeah,

573
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: so uh, it's uh, And there have been people that

574
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: have been entrapped that have survived survived fourth degree burns.

575
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: Uh.

576
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: Of course, it inevitably if it's like a h an appendage,

577
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, like a foot, an ankle, uh, that sort

578
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: of thing, and it's separate from the rest of the body.

579
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: It's going to lead to an amputation. It's it's you

580
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: know that that bit of the body is is uh

581
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: is no longer viable. There's no way you can kind

582
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 1: of resurrect that if you will. And so we see

583
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: them with we see the dead many times that have

584
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: this uh fourth burning, and pathologists will actually refer to

585
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: it as fourth degree burning and they'll talk, you know,

586
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: they'll give detailed description about what muscle groups, they'll talk

587
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: about what bones are visible. Also, the charring on the

588
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: bone bone turns this really interesting color when when it burns,

589
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: it'll I think it probably has something to do with

590
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: kind of the fatty rose of due that's surrounding it,

591
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: but it will turn this kind of interesting yellow color

592
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: before it finally goes to black. And these levels are

593
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: absolutely horrific. But you know, in the case of our

594
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: victim today, Dave, he probably had third degree burns. I'm

595
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: thinking they're trying to save him and they call it.

596
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: There's a I think it's the rule of seventy. You know,

597
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 1: if you get upwards of seventy percent of your body

598
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: is burned. Might be wrong about that, I can't remember.

599
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: Feel free to correct me on that, but you know,

600
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: it's unsurvivable. And I'm talking about the surface area of

601
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: the body, and of course the degree to which you

602
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: were burned. It's all, you know, the more it makes sense,

603
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: it's just logical. You know, the more surface area you

604
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: have burned or compromised, there's a higher probability that it's

605
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: going to be unsurvivable because they're having to treat all

606
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: of that surrounding tissue. If you have a singular area,

607
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: we have a third degree burned, it might be survivable,

608
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: but you know, they've got this guy going through surgery.

609
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: I think probably one of the most horrific things that

610
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: I've had to bear witness to, particularly in the more after,

611
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: we would get somebody from a hospital that had been

612
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: involved in a fire and they've been treated for a

613
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: protracted period of time with your kidney shut down, you

614
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: can't process fluids that sort of thing. But yet fluids

615
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: are required, and the bodies begin to swell in life,

616
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: they actually begin to swell, so they will take them

617
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: into surgery, not necessarily to do skin graphing. Dave. Here's

618
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: the horrible part. They make these long, linear incisions into

619
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: the body because the skin will actually split on its

620
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: own because the tension, and so you would you would

621
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 1: see these bodies of these individuals that would come in

622
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: and you would just know how horrible this existence had been,

623
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 1: even if they you know, I don't know how aware

624
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: they are of it, but they would take them into

625
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: surgery to make these kind of linear incisions so that

626
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: the skin would not tear on its own, that there

627
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: might be hope for repair later on. But I got

628
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: to tell you, man, once you're subjected to fire, it's

629
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: a really tough hill to climb.

630
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: I just can't for the life of being real and truly, John,

631
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: I mean this, We're faced with so many different stories.

632
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: Oftentimes I find myself thinking of the types of individuals,

633
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: the special people who decide what they're going to do

634
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 2: with their life, how they're going to spend And when

635
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: somebody chooses to work in an environment that's just like

636
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: this is a special heart person. Just like working in

637
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: a funeral home is a calling, you know, it's a ministry.

638
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 2: The same thing here. I cannot imagine what the individuals

639
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 2: working in that environment, what they go through, and.

640
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: It's something I wouldn't as resilient as I can be

641
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: in the face of these deaths. I guess that I've

642
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: covered for years and years. It's not something that I

643
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 1: would I would choose to do, so God bless those

644
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: that actually choose to do it, and they choose it

645
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: because they feel like they have a very specific skill

646
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: set and you need people like that. But you know,

647
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: going back to this case with this Hubbard woman, that

648
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: gives you a taste, I think, because I'll go and

649
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 1: tell you she's been charged and the charges are very interesting.

650
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: I kind of want to, you know, talk our way

651
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: through that. But this is just a taste. Since she's

652
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: been charged and not tried and not convicted, it's going

653
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: to give you an insight. I think. When they put

654
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: these medical professionals on the stand to talk about his injuries,

655
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: and there will probably be photos perhaps of him from

656
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: the hospital bed, the stuff gets a really powerful dave

657
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: and if she's in that court, she's going to have

658
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: to look at them. And let me tell you how

659
00:42:55,040 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 1: seriously State of Kansas takes this all right, In most cases,

660
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: I would think, let's just say, let's see how can

661
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: we how can we frame this. Let's just say that

662
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: you happen to spill gas in an area, and you've

663
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: got people that are probably too closer than they should be,

664
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: but yet you go ahead and light a match and

665
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: it ignites the grass and uh, the person a person

666
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,959
Speaker 1: standing there might burn and wind up dying. That would

667
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: probably be manslaughter. It all depends on how the law

668
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: is written out in most jurisdictions. They've they have charged

669
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: her with a first degree murder. First degree murder is

670
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: a capital offense in Kansas.

671
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: David, Yeah, it's I had to look this up because

672
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 2: I was I was curious as to how they came

673
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: about charge because the the what we understand is that

674
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: Hubbard and Crawford were both committing a robbery a burglary

675
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: at the time. But Kansas law, individuals can be charged

676
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: with felony murder if someone dies during the commission of

677
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: a felony, even if the death was unintentional, as was

678
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: the case here. But they're alleging that Hubbard killed Crawford

679
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: while in the commission of, or attempt to commit, or

680
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 2: flight from an inherently dangerous felony to wit burglary of

681
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 2: the you know, you've got copper wire from a building

682
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: that's electrified. So that's the charges, and this has not

683
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: been adjudicated. We will follow it, but right now it's

684
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: they have been able to prove over not proof. They

685
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 2: have already determined any investigation that Hubbard has been going

686
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: to the salvage yards and selling scrap metal for some time.

687
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, the records indicate that on

688
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:07,920
Speaker 2: July seventeenth, we're talking about the day of right, she

689
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 2: made nine hundred and seventy seven dollars and seventy two

690
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 2: cents off of two separate transactions. And remember July seventeen. Okay,

691
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: this man's in the hospital, Joe. Two days later he dies. Okay,

692
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: So that's who Molly Hubbard is. And that's what they're

693
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 2: going to be talking about a trial.

694
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 1: You know, well, there's going to be and again that's

695
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: going to play into she's not necessarily going to be

696
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: charged in those cases, and if they allow it in court,

697
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: that's going to be what the prosecution I think will

698
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: show is that there is there is a pattern here

699
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: of engagement doing this. Now, at this point, it doesn't

700
00:45:54,640 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: matter if our victim was engaged with her. The fact

701
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: is is that she's been engaged in doing this and

702
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: here you have you just demonstrated, Dave, that she's selling

703
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: this stuff the day out. Yeah, and it is a

704
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: it's been a problem for some time because the value

705
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: of copper, you know, has gone through the roof. And

706
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, for people that are willing to

707
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: risk their lives, which in this case apparently happened, it's

708
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 1: nothing for them to walk into a building that they

709
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: don't think people are watching, maybe an old abandoned building,

710
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 1: and strip out that wiring and you know, take it

711
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: to somebody that will in fact purchase it. We'll see

712
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: how this comes out, but I can tell you this

713
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: man has died, and he died a very very painful

714
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: death that the State of Kansas has now credited to

715
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: Molly Hubbard's account. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is

716
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 1: body Bags