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Speaker 1: Oh, it's Halloween. It's Halloween season. If you ask me, uh,

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Speaker 1: if you ask me my favorite season, it would be Halloween,

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Speaker 1: or I'd be someone else pretending to be me. So

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Speaker 1: what better time to introduce you to our old classic

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Speaker 1: episode on grimoise Books of Magic, necronomicons and um. I

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Speaker 1: always think of, oh gosh, what are some other ones? Mouthfishes, milk, No, no,

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Speaker 1: the k the Maleficarius, maam Malicharium, philific uh not domine

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Speaker 1: news never mind no, something like that, that is the Malificarium.

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Speaker 1: But Ben, I gotta backcheck a little bit. You buried

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Speaker 1: the lead there. I think the idea of a Halloween

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Speaker 1: custom of someone else pretending to be you is brilliant,

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Speaker 1: does a stroke of genius. You don't have to do anything,

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Speaker 1: but you can say, I'm I'm dressed up as a

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Speaker 1: doppel I'm somebody else pretending to be me. That's my costume.

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Speaker 1: It's both lazy and absolutely Jane, I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: a bad idea, fully support meta. You know, it's really cheap. Actually,

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Speaker 1: it's inexpensive to get a mask of your own face

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Speaker 1: made so you could wear the mask too. Dude. It

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Speaker 1: reminds me of that the Comic Con panel where Brian

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Speaker 1: Cranston was wearing a Walter White mask and then took

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Speaker 1: it off and it was just his face. And I

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Speaker 1: mean that it was a good look at mask. I

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Speaker 1: think that would be a pretty cool hallowing costume, although

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Speaker 1: pressed a little pricey, but you said it's not too bad, right,

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Speaker 1: It's cheaper than you surprisingly, So Yeah. Another weirdly inexpensive thing,

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Speaker 1: life size cardboard cutouts. Just if you ever want to

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Speaker 1: buy one of your friends a terrible housewarming gift, get

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Speaker 1: them a life size cardboard cut out of themselves. But

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Speaker 1: then surely there is an incantation or some sort of

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Speaker 1: spell somewhere in a grimoire that could, you know, cause

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Speaker 1: someone's face to shift and and and resemble the face

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Speaker 1: of somebody else or these are the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: we're talking about in these tombs are either you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of death magic, um, you know, the idea of

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Speaker 1: reanimating you know, corpses and stuff like that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's tons of different ones, and they kind

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Speaker 1: of run the gamut, but uh, you know, there are

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Speaker 1: some definite spooky things in these homes exactly. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: we do want to add one note that hammer of

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Speaker 1: which is book that we were describing there. That's actually

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Speaker 1: for inquisitors. There's a lot more to this story about

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Speaker 1: Grimoise than Uh. Then you might pick up from your

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Speaker 1: favorite love crafty of films. So we can't wait for

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Speaker 1: you to join us. We hope you are having a

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Speaker 1: wonderful Halloween month and we'll be back very soon with

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Speaker 1: even more spooky stuff from UFOs to psychic powers and

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Speaker 1: government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can

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Speaker 1: turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. Hello, welcome back to the show. My

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Speaker 1: name is Matt, my name is Noel. They call me Ben.

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Speaker 1: You or you, or at least a close approximation there

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Speaker 1: of This is stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: You've heard of spelled books before, probably right. If this

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Speaker 1: is a surprise to you, then buckle your seatbelt because

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Speaker 1: this is going to be probably one of your favorite

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Speaker 1: episodes of our show. So several of us are fans

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Speaker 1: of horror movies. If you are a fan of this show,

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Speaker 1: you probably have a higher statistical likelihood of enjoying horror movies.

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Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of them. Uh, And if you

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Speaker 1: enjoy horror movies, then you're also familiar with that old trope,

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Speaker 1: the Cursed Book. Right, what's the most famous example of

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Speaker 1: the cursed book? Well, the one that comes to mind

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Speaker 1: for me is HP loves Crafts Necronomicon, which is that

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Speaker 1: ancient cursed book? Which is the tone? I guess yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a tone. It's clearly a work of fiction because

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Speaker 1: it is written by HP Lovecraft, but numerous people have

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Speaker 1: attempt to create a real necronomicon, right, this this tone

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Speaker 1: of dark Eldridge magic. According to Lovecraft and the Cadulu Mythos,

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Speaker 1: it was composed by a and I'm quoting here a

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Speaker 1: half crazed Arab named Abdul al Hazred. We should note

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Speaker 1: at this point that, amongst many other things, Lovecraft was

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Speaker 1: cartoonishly racist people. Right, We've we've covered this, And what's

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Speaker 1: interesting is Lovecraft himself maintained the book was entirely fictitious.

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Speaker 1: And what we found this will tie into some stuff

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Speaker 1: later in the show, is that despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: whenever he was asked about it by friends, family, or journalists, right,

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Speaker 1: and despite the fact that he would always say this

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Speaker 1: is fictional, not only did I make it up, But

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Speaker 1: I didn't make up all of it. I just made

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Speaker 1: up some excerpts for my short stories. Despite that, it

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Speaker 1: got to a point of popularity where more and more

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Speaker 1: people became fans of his cosmic horror genre and then

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Speaker 1: started writing their own necronomicons. As Matt said, and this

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Speaker 1: takes a path from fiction to fandom to reality take

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Speaker 1: place in more recent things like slender Man started out

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Speaker 1: as pure fiction, purely anowledge fiction that gained such notoriety

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Speaker 1: that ultimately it had real world consequence. Well, the Necronomicon

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Speaker 1: has that same effect where it's like introduced and then

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Speaker 1: reused and sort of like adjusted and adapted to different times,

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Speaker 1: different personalities, and it almost takes on a life of

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Speaker 1: its own, like slender Man, where even though the original

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Speaker 1: creator was like, yeah, this is definitely fake, the more

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Speaker 1: you start to see it in different incarnations, the more

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Speaker 1: the mind tends to go to, well, maybe it's not fake,

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Speaker 1: you know, right, Yeah, And that's the moral of the

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Speaker 1: Necronomicon story in a way, is just because something isn't real,

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Speaker 1: to take your air quote move, doesn't mean that it

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Speaker 1: is not dangerous. On a lighter note, there are many

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Speaker 1: other spell books in fiction, of course, will will all recalls,

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Speaker 1: since we all have in peckable taste in films, Disney's

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Speaker 1: hocus Pocus don come to me. Yes, let's not forget

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Speaker 1: the more malevolent yet equally hilarious necronomicon ex Mortis from

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Speaker 1: the Evil Dead films. Okay, wait a minute, everything's full

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Speaker 1: or even that that creepy book with the face from

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Speaker 1: the care Bears movie, Yeah anyone? Yeah, too late, too late.

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Speaker 1: The last spell is chast No really, no, I I

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Speaker 1: can't even handle that one. Well that yeah, all I

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Speaker 1: was about to say, you thought you were saying you

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Speaker 1: were not familiar, because that is the stuff of nightmares. Friends.

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Speaker 1: It possesses that kid, possesses this little kid who is

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Speaker 1: like the magician's assistant, makes them do things, and the

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Speaker 1: care Bears have to come down and do their stay

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Speaker 1: care Bears stare, I get too far off, but that

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Speaker 1: it is an economicon of sorts, a grimoire of sorts,

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Speaker 1: because if in the way it's depicted in the film,

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Speaker 1: it is a big, thick tone that he finds in

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Speaker 1: a long forgotten, dusty magician's chest, and it's got all

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Speaker 1: of these kind of esoteric scrawls and different symbols all

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Speaker 1: through it, and it, you know, spawns this weird green,

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Speaker 1: bald kind of androgynous face that you know makes him

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Speaker 1: do things and what that you know that reminds me.

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Speaker 1: This is a separate talk about censorship which ties in

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Speaker 1: later to the car tubes of Yesteryear. I think we're

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Speaker 1: a little better because they were less sanitized, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? A demonic possession film marketed towards children,

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Speaker 1: where the main heroes are zy teddy bears with different

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Speaker 1: on their tummies that can shoot out rainbow magic energy,

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Speaker 1: completely completely new. What did it even do? By the way,

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Speaker 1: what did the stair do? Did it just fill you

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Speaker 1: with goodness? It was like it was like The Heart

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Speaker 1: Ring and Captain Planet except bears. Yeah, it was. It

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Speaker 1: was overwhelming love and compassion. Yeah. It was a very

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Speaker 1: It was a very aggressive form of non violence because

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Speaker 1: they were shooting people technically. Now, not to say that

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Speaker 1: a grimoire is inherently evil. Yeah, you know. Additionally, when

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Speaker 1: we talk about just the fictional stuff, we also have

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Speaker 1: another side, which would be that there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of out and out hoaxes and someone wrote something and

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Speaker 1: pretended they discovered some ancient source of knowledge hidden or

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Speaker 1: occulted from the public eye. Sorry, it would not say

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Speaker 1: that in such a dumb voice. Regular occulted? Was that

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Speaker 1: an edit? Or was that? You know? That was just

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Speaker 1: me not wanting to sound so npr about it. Enough.

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Speaker 1: Now I've got a question for you. Would you consider

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Speaker 1: We've talked about the Voytage manuscript, and I know that's

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Speaker 1: gonna come up later in the episode. But since we

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Speaker 1: don't really know, does something to be considered a hoax

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Speaker 1: have to have a hoaxer? Do you have to know

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Speaker 1: who did it in order for it to be considered

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Speaker 1: a hoax? No, for something that's an excellent question. For

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Speaker 1: something to be considered a hoax, there must be something

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Speaker 1: about it that is marketed or propagated that is untrue.

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Speaker 1: So if you anonymously wrote something and three years later

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Speaker 1: Matt's descendants find it and they just don't know you

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Speaker 1: wrote it, that doesn't make it a hoax. Like well,

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Speaker 1: with the Voyage manuscript, they can't read it. But if

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Speaker 1: you wrote something that actually happened, like three years ago,

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Speaker 1: this happened, we don't know who you are, doesn't make

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Speaker 1: you a hoax. If Matt wrote something and then waited

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Speaker 1: and some master plan to give it to us and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: I found this in a grave and it's four hundred

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Speaker 1: years old. That would definitely be a hoax. But we're

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Speaker 1: also sort of in the realm of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: if I write a spell and tell you this is

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Speaker 1: a legit spell and you can't do it, you can't

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Speaker 1: recreate what I'm telling you it should be able to do,

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Speaker 1: is that a hoax? Or you just done any good

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Speaker 1: at doing magic? That's a great question. We raised that

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Speaker 1: in one of our earlier episodes on the Occult too,

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Speaker 1: because there's a there's a fuzzy line here with a

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Speaker 1: hoax For people who don't believe in magic, any book

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Speaker 1: of magic written is essentially disingenuous, right, But there are

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Speaker 1: quite a few people, maybe not as often now, but

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Speaker 1: in in the span of human history who believed that

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Speaker 1: they were simply the instrument from so for some supernatural

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Speaker 1: or otherworldly being that was writing through them. Is it

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Speaker 1: a hoax when the creator is absolutely believe in it,

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Speaker 1: You know, that's that's almost a matter of perspective. But

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Speaker 1: even let's let's go one further. Are there any real

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Speaker 1: grim wise, meaning, are there any books of magic created

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Speaker 1: by people who genuinely believed they were creating how to

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Speaker 1: manual on you know, the so called occulted arts. Shall

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Speaker 1: we have some facts then? Yes, there are numerous examples

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Speaker 1: of historical spell books. Today, these are popularly known as

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Speaker 1: what this episode is about grim wars in the West.

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Speaker 1: But you know, what we're gonna explore here is primarily

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Speaker 1: stuff that's occurring in the Western world. Um. It's it's

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Speaker 1: crucial to note though, that these things exist throughout the globe,

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Speaker 1: throughout the planet. Uh, in the east and the north

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Speaker 1: and the south, all of the cardinal directions. You will

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Speaker 1: find these. However, we would have to make up our whole,

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Speaker 1: like a whole different show to cover all of them, right,

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Speaker 1: It wouldn't be just one episode to cover all the

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Speaker 1: cultures across the globe that have their own very traditions

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Speaker 1: and rituals and incantations that other people might call magic.

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Speaker 1: And these people might just call, you know, their day

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Speaker 1: to day life a Tuesday A Tuesday. Yeah. Perfect. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like you said, now we're sticking with Western spell books.

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Speaker 1: Grandma's first question, what's what's with the name that's not

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Speaker 1: a name? You hear every day. Scholars are not completely

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Speaker 1: sure about the etymology of this word, but the most

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Speaker 1: popular belief is that the term grimois comes from Latin

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Speaker 1: via Old French grammaire, which originally just described this. This

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Speaker 1: is kind of funny. It originally just described any book

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Speaker 1: written in Latin. There you go. Do you think is

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Speaker 1: there any connection to the word grammar, perhaps like a

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Speaker 1: collect language. There must be, yeah, there must be. With

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Speaker 1: the root and back in the day, something as mundane

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Speaker 1: as a how to manual on you know, avoiding the

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Speaker 1: Plague by Lord Noel Brown or uh well, Digging for

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Speaker 1: Dummies by Duke Matt Vaughan Frederick trademark trademark, it would

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Speaker 1: also be a grim wa back then. And then eventually

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Speaker 1: in France people started just using the term grimoi to

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Speaker 1: mean pretty much any book that was difficult to understand,

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Speaker 1: anything there was a pain in the case, star to read.

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Speaker 1: And then the big shift to where this goes from

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Speaker 1: just being a word for difficult book too. This book

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Speaker 1: has magic Powers came in the nineteenth century in uh

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Speaker 1: in Britain and England, the publication of a book called

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Speaker 1: The Major's in eighteen o one. The British had a

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Speaker 1: real profound interest in all occult matters at the time.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is the age when people are getting

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Speaker 1: into the concept of using scientific principles to investigate things

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Speaker 1: that have once been thought to be purely the realm

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Speaker 1: of spirituality and magic. So they're interested in this, And

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Speaker 1: through this book the term grim wab became firmly cemented

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Speaker 1: in English as a word that meant specifically books of

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Speaker 1: magic in general. And since that point, of course, we

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Speaker 1: talked about the hoaxes and emerged, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: them ballooned after this book came out. Typically stories take

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Speaker 1: the same strokes, uh, contemporary writer. Uh, Let's say, let's see,

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Speaker 1: since this is an example of a of a bad

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Speaker 1: person and I kind of picked on you guys by

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Speaker 1: giving you cool books earlier. Uh, let's say some uh

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Speaker 1: slightly disingenuous person will we'll we'll call him uh at

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Speaker 1: Admiral Boland or whatever. UH makes up a pseudonym like

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Speaker 1: Antonio Ventiana de la Rabina, who is the supposed author

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Speaker 1: of The Grand Grimoire, also known as the Red Dragon.

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Speaker 1: So this this charlatan of an admiral then implies that

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Speaker 1: this text is ancient and it's handed down in secret

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Speaker 1: for centuries, millennia, or if we want to get super

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Speaker 1: weird with it, a secret pre existing civilization that rose

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Speaker 1: and f before the Biblical flood. And then there's a

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Speaker 1: bullet point here on the on our notes. That's just

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Speaker 1: four question marks. So that's where we're at. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: the next step after that is profit, notoriety, at cetera. Oh. Also,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I never get to use this word,

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Speaker 1: the word for things that existed before the Biblical flood,

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Speaker 1: pre lapsarian. I know it's not the sexiest word, but

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Speaker 1: you know, it never comes up. So obviously, this proliferation

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Speaker 1: of these fraudulent texts has given the whole enterprise of

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Speaker 1: occult books a bad rap. But we also have to

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Speaker 1: remember there's a context in which so many of these

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Speaker 1: texts were made. Yeah. Not only were books in general

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Speaker 1: much much rarer and more expensive, they were a commodity.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you had to be, you know, a bit

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Speaker 1: of a fancy pants to afford to have books, and

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Speaker 1: to have access to good quality books and books of

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Speaker 1: high academic rigor heck to read. Of course, of course

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Speaker 1: I'm putting the cart before the horse there, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I mean, but research, as we understand it today

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Speaker 1: was in its infancy or pretty much did not exist.

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Speaker 1: You did not have the resources to research in the

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Speaker 1: way that we just have an embarrassment of riches via

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Speaker 1: the internet. You know, there's that in Carta Encyclopedia c

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Speaker 1: rom You know those are great, Um kidding, but it

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Speaker 1: were great. That was a game changing. It was a

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Speaker 1: game changer. But when you look at it now, it

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Speaker 1: feels the way you know it must have felt to

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Speaker 1: go from having a book to having a library. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's a that's a good point. There was also this

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Speaker 1: implicit degree of trust between authors and readers, right like,

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Speaker 1: after all, if we're living in the thirteen hundreds and

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Speaker 1: we're some of the people who see a book that

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Speaker 1: happens not to be religious texts like the Bible, then

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Speaker 1: holy smokes, of course it's got to be true. Why

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Speaker 1: would somebody spend years handwriting this thing if it was

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Speaker 1: just for fun, Why would somebody do an elaborate troll

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Speaker 1: like that? Well, and I guess that's a big part

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Speaker 1: of why. When like things like pamphlets and tracts became

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Speaker 1: widely distributed, that was a great way to misinform the

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Speaker 1: populace because you could those were cheap to make. You

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Speaker 1: could very easily kind of fit some propaganda in there

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Speaker 1: and have it circulate and have that same mentality of oh,

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Speaker 1: it's printed on paper, therefore it must be the truth.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine how those guys would have felt, those

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Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen if they saw Facebook post let's pamphletize

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Speaker 1: a million. So this means that, of course, while grand

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Speaker 1: wise get a hard time, books of magic were not

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Speaker 1: the only inaccurate things out there by any means um.

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Speaker 1: But we do know that before the British called spell

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Speaker 1: books grim wise, before the French read Latin, before even

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Speaker 1: the age of the Roman Empire, magic in some form

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Speaker 1: existed around the world or magical practices. Earliest precursors the

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Speaker 1: books of magic are these incantations found on clay tablets

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Speaker 1: and Mesopotamia. And that's the earliest we found so far.

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Speaker 1: What would you guys mind if we paused for a

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Speaker 1: quick break before we got into the details of that.

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Speaker 1: Sounds good, cool, and we're back. We're back in ten

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Speaker 1: but we're talking about ancient Mesopotamia. Let's broen what it is.

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Speaker 1: Where's my flying car? Yeah, where's your flying car? It's

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Speaker 1: in my suitcase. But the suitcase also flies. We should

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Speaker 1: have thought about all right, I got the year wrong.

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Speaker 1: It is seen but back before it was even sixteen,

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Speaker 1: like way before the Greeks believed. The first people to

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Speaker 1: compile books of mad Jack were in the Persian culture,

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Speaker 1: where a Persian tribe known as wait for it, the Magi. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's basically like magic without the sea. Hey, that is

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Speaker 1: a cool That is a cool word in term. I

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Speaker 1: don't for some reason, I love that I've actually heard

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Speaker 1: it pronounced magi and quite like there's a story of

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Speaker 1: the gift of the Magi. I've I've heard that, I've

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Speaker 1: heard it pronounced that way. Oh, I thought, well, I know,

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Speaker 1: I think it's I think both are acceptable. Listeners, call

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Speaker 1: me out, tell me. And there was some translation stuff too,

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Speaker 1: because in earlier text it used to be spelled m

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Speaker 1: A j I you know. So, yeah, folks, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the same ones, the famous Wise Men of the East,

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Speaker 1: perhaps best known today in our neck of the woods

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Speaker 1: for their cameo during Christ's birth in the Christian Bible. UM.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in a classical music family, and um

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Speaker 1: one of the sort of opera is kind of Operetta

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Speaker 1: sp Is that my mother was quite fond of. Was

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Speaker 1: It's called a Mall and the Night Visitors, and it's about,

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Speaker 1: you know what, my dad played a mall for a

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Speaker 1: long term. It's it's a thing. Churches do it all

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Speaker 1: the time. But the wise Men are really central characters

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Speaker 1: in it because they hang out a lot, and they

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Speaker 1: all have their own personalities. And one of them has

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Speaker 1: this box that he carries around that's full of all

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Speaker 1: these amazing little trinkets and and like one of them

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Speaker 1: are like a bunch of them are these precious stones

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Speaker 1: that he considers magical and he describes them and it's

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Speaker 1: like moonstone will make you sleep, and like lap slazuli

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Speaker 1: and like all these different ones that have these different

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Speaker 1: properties that are all clearly charms. Yeah, but he, you know,

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Speaker 1: ascribed very specific effects to these stones just by placing

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Speaker 1: them near you. And the mall. The main character is

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Speaker 1: a boy who can't walk and has to use a crutch,

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Speaker 1: and uh, the wise Man is trying, you know, attempts

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Speaker 1: to even cure him, or implies that he could cure

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Speaker 1: him using some of these these trinkets. I'm saying charms. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's that is because originally, before we see the

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Speaker 1: rise of the book, we're still like talking about before

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Speaker 1: the age of the book, these spells would be inscribed

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Speaker 1: on amulets and things like that. So the Greeks believed

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Speaker 1: that the first magician magi to compile the cult works

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Speaker 1: into a single large text or collection was a Persian

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Speaker 1: associate of King Xerxes, remember from three hundred Okay, I

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Speaker 1: think that's not entirely in accurate film. Uh, But there

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Speaker 1: was a magician the story goes, named Austen's, and during

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Speaker 1: xerxes failed war with Greece around four b c E.

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Speaker 1: This magician allegedly scattered the seeds of what would become

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Speaker 1: much of the world's modern in the time of the

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Speaker 1: Greek's understanding magical thinking. Also, the in this story the

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Speaker 1: magi learned their arts. They are culled arts from uh Zaraster.

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Speaker 1: So this is a tie in with the earlier religion

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Speaker 1: of Zarastrianism. I was gonna say, yeah, so I've heard

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Speaker 1: that mentioned in several places on the net, that those

360
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Speaker 1: guys were or on the net. On the net, you're

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Speaker 1: on the net, that's nothing but a bunch of pamphlets.

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Speaker 1: Then that's my faith at Sandra Bullock film. You know,

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Speaker 1: I rewatched speed and it doesn't hold up. Uh So today,

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Speaker 1: as we said, they're they're thought to be. Grimoire is

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Speaker 1: like an umbrella term for different types of magical knowledge,

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Speaker 1: and it can include everything from you know, how to

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Speaker 1: create charms, allah the magi, how to perform spells, practice

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Speaker 1: divination which is a big one, summon supernatural entities, angels, spirits, demons, domino.

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Speaker 1: We actually have a grimoire that we have to use

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Speaker 1: every single time we podcast with End because he just

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00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: you know, we have to you know, summon him. He

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Speaker 1: has to materialize from his interdimensional what do you call

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Speaker 1: it lair allegedly, just so you guys know, in three

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Speaker 1: separate grimois I found spells to ward against cattle witching

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Speaker 1: and uh diabolical mischief, and cattle had a ward against it.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty it was a big problem. He's a big problem. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we want to thank everybody who wrote listener mail to

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Speaker 1: us about that would occurred to me, like, how come

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Speaker 1: supernatural entities and extraterrestrial entities alike can't quit messing with

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Speaker 1: the damned cattle? Well that's a great question. Snatching babies,

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Speaker 1: stealing cattle, and there's there's a there's a troubling and

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Speaker 1: compelling argument about how closely older descriptions of the fay

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Speaker 1: or fairy folk can jibe like almost a one on

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Speaker 1: one correlation with stories about UFOs, Like you know what, man,

385
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: maybe it's maybe it's like, you know, how you follow

386
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: the money in politics, maybe we follow the cattle and

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00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: do you have uf I'm just just really fast, I

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Speaker 1: want to say how how important the cattle were two

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Speaker 1: people's of the times when a lot of us were

390
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Speaker 1: absolutely and so if anything is going wrong, if you're

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Speaker 1: not getting milk correctly, or if there's blood in the milk,

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Speaker 1: or you know, whatever small ailment the cow has, that's

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Speaker 1: going to be the biggest problem that your whole you

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Speaker 1: know group is experiencing at that time. Sure, yeah, I

395
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 1: mean it's easy for some people who don't who have

396
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Speaker 1: not lived in an agricultural environment to you know, we

397
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Speaker 1: can we can poke fun at this, and it's all

398
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: it's all a good nature. But it's sort of the

399
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Speaker 1: idea of let's say, if your family owns cattle, right,

400
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: they're probably pretty well to do in many ways, but

401
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: think of it like your your father or your mother

402
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: would then be the same thing as like they own

403
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: a small car lot. Every single one of those is

404
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: super important. And if something goes wrong, then it's food

405
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 1: out of your mouth. Yeah exactly, except in this case

406
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: instead of cars, you're literally drinking and like consuming yeah,

407
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: the byproducts. So yeah, I gotta live. And and so

408
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 1: these books were like compendiums, almanacs, reference works of all

409
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: this other stuff that existed oral traditions. Sometimes the books

410
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: themselves were believed to be imbued with magic powers, not

411
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Speaker 1: just the stuff you would read or do from the

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Speaker 1: manuals or the grimoire, but the physical object. And there's

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Speaker 1: a special note here that I think is important. We're

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Speaker 1: lucky to have listeners of all spiritual stripes or no

415
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: spiritual stripes on this show. And like that Preacher character,

416
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: and Poultergeist said, all they're welcome, All they're welcome, place

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00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: your hearty your heart exactly, and then he said, oh,

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00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: that's a good film. But so you might be hearing

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Speaker 1: this talk of magical books, either on this episode or

420
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 1: another episode, and wonder, you know, hey, how do spiritual

421
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: reference works fit into you know, holy text and stuff.

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Speaker 1: I was wondering that Ben Great Well, no time, like

423
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: the president. Technically, these would not be considered grimoise. In fact,

424
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 1: many people would consider the correlation to be offensive. Right Uh.

425
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: In the current day, they're definitely not consider that. But

426
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 1: many do contain either explorations of the occult or mentions

427
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: of the occult. You know, there are characters that are

428
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: fortune tellers, soothsayers, uh, practices of witchcraft, and some of

429
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: some of these books were often believed to have physical

430
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: magical properties themselves just the text on the page, imbut

431
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: it with some sort of power. And this belief exists

432
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: in a more subdued form today. This is why, for example,

433
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: you can hear religious excerpts being read during exorcisms in Catholicism.

434
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: And that's just one example. You can check out our

435
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: exorcism episode from more Info. And despite all of these

436
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: hoaxes that we've talked about, we do know that there

437
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: are a couple let's call them true with quotes grimoires.

438
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: In his book Grimoires History of Magical Books, author Owen

439
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 1: Davies names several. So we're gonna go through a couple

440
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: of these. Yeah, that's from all across the spectrum of

441
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: religions as well. Jewish Christian Islamic traditions, all of them. Yeah, well, yes,

442
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: and all of these were they were influenced by this

443
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: Babylonian myth that is ancient, super ancient. H and the

444
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: origin of these magic books were dated to the age

445
00:27:55,080 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: before the Great Flood has been said, Okay, it's not

446
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: that bad of a word, as long as we think

447
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: of prolapse. I was gonna say, as long as it's

448
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: not about that. Oh man, I'm arian. I just lost

449
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 1: this word now. I guess it's better that I get

450
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: it now. This explains why everybody it pro laps is

451
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 1: a scientific word. Edit that say it I did. It's

452
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: a yes, well, my misunderstanding of before the flood, which

453
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 1: is pre lapse arian. It's still a great word, you guys. Uh.

454
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: The idea here is that the ancient roots of what

455
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: would become magic in the West, which would be Babylonian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian,

456
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: interacting with Grecian mythology, this stuff becomes sort of a

457
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: immortal ooze, you know, a soil from which these other

458
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: things grow. And while some Hebrew and Smaritan text described

459
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: writings to the first man Adam in late antiquity, in

460
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 1: the medieval period. Uh Enoch, who in Arabic was known

461
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: as Idris, was more generally believed to be the inventor

462
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: of books overall. Yeah, so we're so far back in

463
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: time now that we're looking at uh spiritual and religious

464
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: traditions as well as stuff histories tells us. But this

465
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: right now is purely the stories from these belief systems.

466
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: So in the tradition Enoch is the is the creator

467
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: essentially the first Book, but also the first magic. The

468
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: first book is essentially magic. Another tradition relates there's another

469
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: worldly author, how the angel Raziel communicated to Noah a

470
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: secret book containing the art of astrology, which was then

471
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: written on a sapphire like we were talking like writing

472
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: on emeralds and precious jewels that Noah kept in a

473
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: golden chest they brought with him on the arc. Subsequently,

474
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: this was inherited by his son's Shim and a surviving

475
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: there's a surviving tract on astrology called the Treatise of

476
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: Shim that dates back to the late first century b c. EU.

477
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: This means that these are two early contenders for what

478
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: could be considered a kind of grim wis the purported

479
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: Books of Enoch contained astronomical, astrological and angelic lore, and

480
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: we know that versions of these were circulating during the

481
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: time of Jesus Christ, so in another medieval account. And

482
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: again these are all medieval accounts, so this is still

483
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: that that period of time where people were just believing

484
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: almost anything they read as long as it did not

485
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: directly contradict their religiost beliefs. So, without getting too deep

486
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: into biblical chronology, the argument here would be the earliest

487
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: works on the occult sciences where those studied by Enoch.

488
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: But the first Book of Conjuration and Magic is associated

489
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: with Noah and his son's Shim and Ham, and in

490
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: many ways this views into conjecture. Of course, often that's

491
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: sadly par for the course. In some degree weren't dealing

492
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: with ancient history. But there's another one that's a little

493
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: bit further, a little bit closer to us in time.

494
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: Whatever year we're in. I can't believe I forgot that

495
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: it was. I didn't mean to call you out. Someone

496
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: should at least I was really close. That's one of

497
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: my new years A relation is to call people out

498
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: more this year. Oh that's so sweet, like like the

499
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: fascinating m yep. I remember that. I certainly remember I

500
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: invite the same gentleman and listeners. I am no gentleman.

501
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: No ohen Davies cites the I didn't mean that to

502
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: come off solominous. Uh oh, And Davies cites another one,

503
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: the Key of Solomon, which you may have heard of

504
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: if you have an interesting grimma, and pops up in

505
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: fiction all the time too. I think it even pops

506
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: up in video games now. And I can't recall which one. Uh.

507
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: You guys probably know better than I would. Uh. Clavicula

508
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: Solemnus is the is the official name Keith Solomon, sort

509
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: of the anglified street name. It was the earliest known

510
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: written versions. There are multiple versions of a lot of

511
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: these kind of books dates back to the fifteenth century,

512
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: somewhere in the fourteen hundreds, written in Greek. Davies has

513
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: a great quote for us about this. There is no

514
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: definitive version of the Clavicule, but along with conjurations to

515
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: command and control the angels of darkness, manuscripts usually contained

516
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: rituals and symbols for personal rather than spiritual well being,

517
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: such as to provoke love, punish enemies, become invisible, and

518
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: deal with thieves and also unlock any door. I found

519
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: that to be interesting. Yeah, that's pretty cool, and I

520
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: like that deal with thieves. But you find these all

521
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: to be really practical, timely kind of things. You know,

522
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: they're like life pro tips exactly. Yeah, there's there's nothing

523
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: there's nothing there in that list that's super super abstract.

524
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: You know, abstraction would be more like the great work

525
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: of alchemy. So there's nothing about summoning the eld Rich

526
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: horrors that will then turn your mind to jelly. You know,

527
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: that should be a thing. There are remedies for gout

528
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 1: that I'm listening at right here, exactly. It's a big

529
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: problem I have. I have one that I actually found

530
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: in a work that we'll talk about in a little bit.

531
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: But would you like to hear a spell? Let's do? Okay,

532
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: So this one is as described in in the passage

533
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: we read a second ago. It's got these little symbols

534
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: um that I'm not it's not quite clear what their

535
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: origins are, but they kind of look almost like Hebrew

536
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: a little bit. They're kind of like, what do you think, Ben,

537
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 1: what do these did those jump out? As some older

538
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: Arabic older Arabic. That's yeah, they're definitely. They're kind of

539
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: a cursive e very fluid um stroke where the characters

540
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: are connected together. They're not like very definitive individual characters.

541
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: They're sort of like a big flowy central line and

542
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 1: then different um sort of filigreed little bits along the path.

543
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: But here's one to know of treasure hidden in the earth.

544
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: And this comes from a book called The Discovery of Witchcraft,

545
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: which was written by a man named Reginald Scott who

546
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: was from Kent in England and was a was a gentleman,

547
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: and it was published in four we'll go into this

548
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: work a little bit more, but it's a perfect place

549
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: to hear a spell. This one to know of treasure

550
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: hidden in the earth. On a piece of paper right

551
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 1: the following characters on a Saturday, the hour of the

552
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: rising moon, and lay it where you think treasure might

553
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: be hidden. If there's treasure on that spot, the paper

554
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: will burn and then it gives the characters. And just

555
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: to give proper credit, this comes from a blog post

556
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: by a gentleman named Jason Mankie who has a book

557
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: called The Witches Book of Shadows that you can seek

558
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: out Um, which sort of talks about different historical grimoires,

559
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: including the Key of Solomon and some others that will discuss,

560
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: including this one. But yeah, all very seemingly practical, like

561
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: I I want some treasure, I want to know, you know,

562
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,959
Speaker 1: it's sort of a pre a pre metal detector, you know. Yeah,

563
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: that's a great point. And so these were practical things.

564
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: And this means that the first collection of spells probably

565
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: dates back into antiquity, probably just didn't happen to be

566
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: in a book for him yet before the rise of

567
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 1: the book. But the spell like well just read very

568
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: very practical instructions and in that age, right, And so

569
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: of course you want to accumulate all of those and

570
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: happen in one place. And the concept of magic itself

571
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 1: predates writing because it goes back to oral tradition and stuff.

572
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: So another big question is if these sorts of things

573
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: have been around since the dawn of recorded history, why

574
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: aren't there more examples. One of the answers to that

575
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: question is also surprisingly pragmatic and practical and grounded in

576
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: the real world censorship. Yet by the early years of Christianity,

577
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: magic scrolls and books were in wide circulation. But to

578
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: the Church, magic fundamentally smacked of paganism, a competitor every

579
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: no matter whether someone professed to be a Christian, if

580
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: they were still engaging in pagan practices, you know, like uh,

581
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: some sort of divination using the entrails of animals or

582
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: something that was still paganism to them? Is the Bible

583
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: a grimoire? The Bible is not a grim wire. The

584
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: Bible is uh. The Bible contains stuff about occult information

585
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: in the cult, characters, practice, and magic show up, but

586
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: it doesn't tell people how to do it. And it's

587
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: interesting because there is a there is an evolution in

588
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: the early days of Christianity where we see the the

589
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: line between what was perceived of his magic was received

590
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: as holy practices or whatever became blurred dependent on who

591
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: you ask. And I wonder if the the use of

592
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: the word occult as a term of abuse, you know,

593
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: a cult meaning hidden, is part of that or what's

594
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: proliferated by Christianity and Catholicism, because if the Bible doesn't

595
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: tell you how to do the tricks, it just kind

596
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: of tells you should follow and leave that to the

597
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: people that know how, that know what's up. In terms

598
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 1: of like who can commune with the whole spirit. I mean,

599
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: obviously in certain beyond Catholicism, you could do it yourself.

600
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: That was a big part of you know, the Reformation

601
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: and all that. But I like the idea of Christianity

602
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: being anti occultism because they already have their own book,

603
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: and they already have their own experts and their own

604
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: practitioners of that are higher level, and they don't want

605
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: the plebs getting their fingers and that stuff. Right, thou

606
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: shalt not intercede. Right, But there's a that's I just

607
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: made that up and used thou shalt, But the argument

608
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 1: is absolutely sound. What you're saying, Noll, is that that

609
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: that is an interesting juxtaposition. There a position for them

610
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: to take. And it reminds me before we go on,

611
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: did you guys ever hear that Prince Philip quote about religion.

612
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: It drove the more conspiratorial minded people quite quite mad.

613
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: And it was a It was a quote where he

614
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: talks about the revealed religions and a lot of people

615
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: thought that to me, there was a hidden mystery or

616
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: an a cult religion of which he and some other

617
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 1: elite cabal was was a part or we're a part.

618
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: But the word apparently the way that the word is

619
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 1: being used. A revealed religion is something that has its beliefs,

620
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: since value systems set down in a book or a

621
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: text according to the official story, but to the church

622
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 1: at the time, early days of the Church, they saw

623
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: magical works as impediments to the socio political dominance of

624
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: their belief system, which meant they saw it to actively

625
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: destroy works that ran counter to its purpose, which at

626
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: that time was to convert people right as many as possible,

627
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: to protect adherents of their belief system from the prejudice

628
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: and discrimination of other groups and you know, other like.

629
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: This is basically what religions were having to do to survive,

630
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: especially if there was a state sponsored religion that had

631
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: a lot of power. You gotta get that tithe money in.

632
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: I mean, how can you build you know, entire complexes, churches,

633
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: cities without that type money. So they would be destroying books,

634
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 1: and books were very powerful. Books are still powerful today.

635
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: The book is not going away for a long time,

636
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: of course. Just a bit of foreshadowing here. There were

637
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: apparently a few exceptions to their rules of burning and

638
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 1: destroying unholy books, and you will read ad nauseum so

639
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: many stories about certain unspeakably vile works hidden in the

640
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: bowels of the Vatican. Point of order. Though, although Christianity

641
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: gets picked on for book burning pretty often nowadays, and

642
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: although there were a lot of books burned and a

643
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: lot of religions names, the early Church was not the

644
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: originator Early Christian churches should say it was not the

645
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: originator of this idea. Way before they got started. Pagan

646
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: Roman authorities were also suppressing any literature that threatened state

647
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: control of religion, especially like we've named all these powers right,

648
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: how to how to sneak into places, how to find treasure,

649
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: how to summon angels and demons. But the thing that

650
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: civilizations were most frightened by, and these magical workings, it

651
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: wasn't cattle witching, It wasn't necromancy. It was divination. It

652
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: was the idea that if even if it was a

653
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: totally fictional prophecy, if enough people believed in it, it

654
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: would destabilize the state. It would destabilize the military. It

655
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: would you know, topple the house the cards, or the

656
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 1: column of cards, the Parthenonic cards. This is something I

657
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: wanted to bring up really fast, and I was watching

658
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: all of these YouTube videos with this gentleman named Tarl Warwick.

659
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: That's at least what he calls himself. The YouTube channel

660
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 1: is sticks hex and Hamma six six six and he

661
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what he is besides an editor

662
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: of books and translator and also a thinker and an occultist.

663
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: I guess his name is Tor Tarl T A R. L.

664
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: And believe that's at least what he calls himself. But

665
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: one of one of his main arguments when discussing the

666
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 1: occult he has a whole video series on the occult,

667
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: is that if a belief is held by enough people

668
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: and strongly enough, then it is what separates that from

669
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: um reality and fiction. Right if the if the belief

670
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: is strong enough, so one of these tones that would

671
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: be considered a grimoire. If enough people believe that it's real,

672
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: is it not real in some way? If there are

673
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 1: enough people actually chanting out the words that are inside

674
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: of it, or you know, believing that it's true. And

675
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: so I can imagine that the Romans were terrified that

676
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 1: if one person gave this divine prophecy, then enough people

677
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: believed it, then perhaps they're going to try and fulfill it.

678
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: No matter what. Yeah, there's a the medic or viral

679
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: quality to belief. So if Noel receives a prophecy and

680
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: enough people believe in follow him. Depend on what the

681
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 1: prophecy is, it could just be self fulfilling. And I

682
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: got prophecies for days. Yeah, ask me about something, all right? Yeah?

683
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: Uh a, Noal, What's what's gonna be? You know how?

684
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: Like the guitar is often considered the main instrument of

685
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: a lot of modern music today, what's gonna is it

686
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: gonna have a replacement? And if so, what would that be?

687
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: The key tar? Mm hmm like a guitar, but it's

688
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: also a keyboard. That's pretty good. I mean, that's just

689
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: it's gonna make a comeback. That just checks out? Yeah,

690
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: okayt When will twenty one Savage retire and become whatever

691
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: his next thing is? I don't know who that is.

692
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: It's good enough for me. I think sometimes we see

693
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 1: we see only partially, you know, through a glass darkly

694
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: there we go see he read my mind in b C.

695
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: I do have a prophecy, oh you do. We need

696
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: to take a break, and so it shall be fulfilled.

697
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: And so if it was fulfilled, that's crazy. Right when

698
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 1: you said that that happened, And I didn't even say

699
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: those things. It just came out like I saw your

700
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: eyes roll back. Are you cool? You're meeting a little

701
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: out of your ear. We'll be right, all right. Well,

702
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: there's a cute tip while you're while you're queuing up,

703
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 1: which is our new slang for bottle key tips while

704
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: you're queueing up. Let's let's further this with some examples

705
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: of times that non Christians or non Monotheistic religions were

706
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: like burning books or non Abramaic religions we should say

707
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: Hunding eighty six BC, for example, the Senate rounded up

708
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: and burned books only books on sooth, saying the medicinal

709
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: stuff was fine. Over a century and a half later,

710
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: two thousand books also on divination were burned on the

711
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: orders of Emperor Augustus. But it wasn't just for magical

712
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: books either. It was just books that people disagreed with,

713
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: like religious and philosophical works didn't do much better. In

714
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: one b C, somebody found a buried chest of books

715
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: that were supposedly the work of Pythagoras, and then the

716
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: Senate said, oh wow, what treasure burn it? I mean

717
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,879
Speaker 1: these guys were burning books left and right, religious works.

718
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: Of course, we're also burned by opponents on all sides.

719
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 1: If we were living back then, and Matt and Noel

720
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: and I each had different religions, like one of our

721
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: main missions would be to destroy the other people's stuff unfortunately,

722
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: uh and and then try to convert each other, which

723
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: rem my to me. In that story, I don't know

724
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: have you ever heard it. It's real quick and and

725
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: listeners please fill this in if you're more familiar with

726
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: this story than I am. There were three patients at

727
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 1: a an asylum, a mental health facility, who were each

728
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: convinced they were Jesus Christ, and one of the staff members,

729
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: one of the doctors there, said, you know what, let's

730
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: just let's put these guys in the room and see

731
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 1: what happens. And then they thought they would come to

732
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 1: blows or go crazy, you know, have some sort of break.

733
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: But instead they came back to find them apparently like

734
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: pleasantly chatting just about everyday stuff. And then one on

735
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: one interviews apparently revealed that they had they had each

736
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that the other two guys were crazy.

737
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: This is um I've heard of this it's got a

738
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: weird name. It's like the Three Christs of and then

739
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: you insert the name and it's like it starts with

740
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: a why, the Three Christs of Ipsilante? Is that is

741
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 1: that it? It's a silent y, yeah, I mean, it's

742
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: definitely starts with a why. There's a book and the film.

743
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: According to the Google the thank you good saving a

744
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: So do check that up because it shows just some

745
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: of the intricacies of the human mind and perspective. But

746
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: all this burning, all this censorship, led to an unfortunate

747
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: situation wherein modern experts may know that a certain text existed,

748
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: we may find multiple references to it in other documents

749
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: and other historical works, but all copies of it were

750
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: either lost the history are consigned to the tragic ashes

751
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: of a fire somewhere. And this means that many grimoires

752
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: are fakes or half truths, or destroyed. In the thousands

753
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: of years since humanity invented books found, we enjoyed burning them,

754
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: and the very beginning of what we happen to call

755
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: the year seventeen. And I don't know about you, guys,

756
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: but I'm thankful that for now people have not found

757
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: a way to burn podcast. Yeah, we we should have

758
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: been making books out of something less flammable early on.

759
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: I think it's easy to say that now. So the

760
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: sum it all up. The t LDR. Davies writes that

761
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: the magic of the first millennium as we know it

762
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: from surviving written text, which is a heck of a

763
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: caveat now as we know, was primarily a mix of Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian,

764
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: and Jewish influences. Medieval grimoise reflect this, but new traditions

765
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,959
Speaker 1: developed as scholars, theologians, and I would also insert Charlatan's

766
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: reconceptualized and reconstructed, sometimes falsely, the cultures, philosophies, and beliefs

767
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 1: of the ancient world. And at this point, at this point,

768
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 1: we have to we have to give the bummer disclaimer,

769
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 1: bummer announcement. At this point, as we were recording this

770
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: and we looked absolutely no one ever has provided accepted

771
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: reproducible proof that any spell or incantation in any true

772
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 1: grimoire works, at least so far as we could find,

773
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 1: And most of the claims regarding a successful ritual are

774
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: either very old an anecdotal, or they're backed up by

775
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,439
Speaker 1: the same single group of spiritual adherence. So like, there's

776
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: not anybody saying that group did it successfully over there?

777
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: That one right, and there's not someone saying, well, let's

778
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 1: ship the book off to you know, Dunwich and try

779
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: it there and get the same results. That anecdotal thing

780
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: is something we've found in a couple of different podcasts

781
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 1: and episodes where we really wanted to find evidence. It

782
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: reminds me of the Ghosts episodes where we are looking

783
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: so hard to find something that we could say this

784
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: is proof that that this exists. But everything that you

785
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: read is the story from one person or two people,

786
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: you know, a small group that performed a ritual and

787
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: it was successful. And it's one of these things where

788
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: should it be that hard to find the evidence of

789
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: a single person with all of these different books, all

790
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: of these different accounts, if it was a thing, shouldn't

791
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: shouldn't it be a little easier to find a video

792
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 1: you to video of someone successfully performing us about our ritual?

793
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: And there there are questions because there are also people

794
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: who will say, well, I've successfully performed a ritual and

795
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: it had results that are either not easily comprehended or

796
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: depicted or measurable. Yeah, exactly, and so one of the

797
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: things that came up a lot in the Alchemy episode,

798
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: Yes right, is it weaponized psychology? I believe, was the phrase.

799
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: And it's true that some of the things that you

800
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: can do to yourself and others simply through psychological manipulation

801
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: come very close to what we would think of as

802
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: acts of magic, you know, eight hundred years ago or so,

803
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: we do know. Not while there might not be any

804
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: proof so far as we know, and we would love

805
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: to see proof if if you feel you have some,

806
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: please send it to us. Uh, this is not We're

807
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: not going to blow up the spot if you ask

808
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: us not to tell anybody. We just want to know.

809
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: While there isn't any proof so far that we know

810
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: of people actually successfully reproducible, that's the important part casting

811
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: spells from a book. There are mysterious books in the world,

812
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: many many more than you might think. And we have

813
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 1: some examples of grim wise that are still either unsolved

814
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: or have numerous questions, or that we're convinced if they

815
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,919
Speaker 1: were convinced, that there's stuff about them we have yet

816
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: to fully understand. And we have a bunch of examples

817
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: here in no particular order. The Book of Siga, which

818
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: was allegedly given to John D on March tenth of

819
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 1: fifty two, Queen's Favorite Alchemists, by an angel. Yes, it

820
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: was then lost for five hundred years following the death

821
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: of Mr D. And then apparently two copies remain in England,

822
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: that is where they exist, and they were written in

823
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 1: this code that is yet to be solved. That's pretty cool.

824
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: It's pretty strange, especially considering a book was lost for

825
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 1: five years. Another is the Prodigiorum Ostentorum Chronicon or Chronicle

826
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: Importance and Prophecies. This is interesting because it was written

827
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: in fifteen fifty seven thereabouts by guy named Conrad Lycosenies.

828
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: This book is a reference work of sorts, and it

829
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: contains here's the thing. It contains documented events like we

830
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: know historically these happened, stuff that you can't fake, like

831
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 1: Hayley's comment at the correct time, like floods, disasters. But

832
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: in between these different world events that are accurate. It

833
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: also contains descriptions of sea monsters and UFOs and things

834
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 1: that today are more relegated to the realm of fringe theories. Next,

835
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: we have the one I mentioned earlier, which upon further

836
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: discussion and and you know observation I don't know necessarily

837
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 1: be classified as a grimoire not, but I think it's

838
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: worth mentioning because of what it contains. Um. It is

839
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: the Discovery of Witchcraft written by a Sir Reginald Scott. Uh.

840
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: He's not officially a sert to my knowledge, but I

841
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: think it's got a nice ring to it. Who was

842
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: a Kentish gentleman, a gentleman from Kent in England. Um.

843
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: And he was attempting to debunk witchcraft and place the

844
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: blame uh for the execution of which is on you know,

845
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,320
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church. A lot of these which scares and

846
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 1: which trials, and would wanted to kind of paint these

847
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: many of these women who were killed as as complete

848
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: and total victims. And you know, meant this not this

849
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: book to be a very damning portrayal of the way

850
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: the church, the Catholic Church behaved, but it ended up

851
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: becoming I think possibly counter to Got's intended purpose. Uh.

852
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: This collection of various bits of lore and even if

853
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: it's spells, one of which we read earlier about finding

854
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: the Treasure, became widely read and considered a resource on

855
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 1: the subject. So I'm wondering. Then he said that resource

856
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: books and historical collections of this kind of esoterica, this

857
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,800
Speaker 1: kind of witchcraft, um spells and such, wouldn't necessarily be

858
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: get considered a grimoire. But isn't it also and how

859
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: you choose to use it? Is it all about the intent?

860
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: Because I don't know. I'm asking, um, I think this

861
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: is worth a mention, but it sets up for debate.

862
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: The jury stillot as to whether or not this would

863
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: actually be considered a grim wire. So listeners, if you

864
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: have any thoughts on that, police let us know. I

865
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: think it would if it has a collection of Lord spells,

866
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: even if he didn't intend it to. There's this, uh,

867
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: this conversation that we've been having off air for a

868
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 1: long time about you know, who owns a piece of

869
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,479
Speaker 1: art after it's created, whether it's a sculpture, a song,

870
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: or you know, a story or a book. It did

871
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 1: have a spin to it, like I said, Jeff, markedly

872
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: anti Catholic spin and ultimately anti witchcraft. I think it

873
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: was a little bit sympathetic in a way, but kind

874
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: of like thought it was privolous, not dangerous at all,

875
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: just sort of like a passing fancy sort of if

876
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 1: you will, and meant to sort of neuter it. Well,

877
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: that I mean, and that would be effective because the

878
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: ideas about the the ideas about witchcraft in Europe at

879
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: the time, we're largely held and propagated by people who

880
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: saw themselves as opponents of the practice, and a lot

881
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: of innocent people died. So if this book got through

882
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: to someone, if if Reginald Scott's book did prevent someone

883
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: from being executed in some incredibly torturous way, then I

884
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 1: think it was a good It was a good deed. However,

885
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 1: I could easily see the unfortunate path that appears to

886
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,040
Speaker 1: have happened where someone said here I found a and

887
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: wire too. I don't care what he says about these spells.

888
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to find some treasure, you know. And and

889
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,359
Speaker 1: I think you make a beautiful point about the use

890
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: of these things, right like is a can of gas

891
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: and a lighter a ticket to a warm fire at night?

892
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 1: Or is it a ticket to burn down a building?

893
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: You know? Oh, it is all things. And if if

894
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: these if the belief here is that this magic actually works,

895
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: then in a way people would see these books as weapons.

896
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 1: Even if somebody made one that said, clearly, I'm showing

897
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: you that this is all malarkey and you should stop

898
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: hurting people for silly reasons. But then also there's some stuff,

899
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: probably one of the some of the biggest legends we've

900
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: talked about, something like there's the Book of Shadows that

901
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: we touch upon in our video stuff. There's one that

902
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: got me um that I'd really like to hear from

903
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,800
Speaker 1: the listeners about it. It's called the Grand Grimoire or

904
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: the Red Dragon, and this is sort of um. This

905
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 1: is one of the white whales of the of the

906
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: Grimoire world was allegedly written in fifteen twenty and it

907
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: was penned by a guyamed Honorius of Thebes during a

908
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: particularly nasty bout of demonic possession. And so yeah, and

909
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: so you have and so apparently the spells within it work.

910
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: It was owned, the legend goes it's owned by the

911
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: Roman Catholic Church, and it's unavailable to the public. It

912
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: contains the only working rituals to summon uh Satan or

913
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: other demonic forces such as pezus think like Pezuzu from

914
00:57:52,520 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: The Exorcists, and and and uh and then also ways

915
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: to corrupt the pope over time. So if all that's true,

916
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: why didn't anyone destroy it? Especially with this predilection for

917
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 1: burning books off the suddenly a little bit you guys

918
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: stoked about the Young Pope because I'm really excited about it.

919
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: I haven't. I've seen the trailer. I watched the first

920
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: twenty minutes of the first episode last night. I love it.

921
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: But Diana was falling asleep, so I said, we're gonna

922
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: table it till tonight. Put a pen in it. Yeah, well, listeners,

923
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:32,479
Speaker 1: let us know what you're thinking about the Young Pope.

924
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: I'm excited about it. The first shot, yeah, and the

925
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: entire thing. Have you seen it? You haven't seen it?

926
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 1: The first thing, you see. I'm trying to figure it out,

927
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: trying to see where they're taking me. But again, I've

928
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: only seen the first twenty four minutes or so, but

929
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: the first shot. You know. I know they can be

930
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: controversial throughout history, but I've never had an unpleasant conversation

931
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: with the Pope on my end at least, have you mind?

932
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 1: So conversations with popes? Here's the kicker. They can't destroy

933
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 1: the book because apparently it can't burn. Is there any

934
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: way we can have that happen and then talking about

935
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: the Young Pope because it was building it up so well.

936
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: I was waiting for Ben to say it can't burn

937
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: and then go to the young Pope that possible, like okay, okay,

938
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: because we're clearly like having fun with you. O UM. Now,

939
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 1: I know that's a lot to take in, folks, UH,

940
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: and I want to let people know I looked I recently. Also,

941
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: I've been sending some correspondence to the to the Vatican

942
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: to see, you know, if there's any sand to this story,

943
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: because I at this point couldn't find an official yes

944
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: or no over whether they own a book like this. Uh.

945
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: There are copies or purported copies that you can buy,

946
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: because apparently it's popular in some other circles, especially in

947
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: vood unrelated circles. But those aren't the only mysterious books.

948
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: There's also some that I would consider the the we

949
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 1: don't know books, like the Rohan Seed Codex UH, donated

950
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: to the Hungarian Academy of Sciences in the early nineteenth century.

951
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: Not only do we not know what it's about because

952
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,080
Speaker 1: it's written in like the Oiga, like the Oiga Chronicles

953
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: and uncracked code, we also don't know where it comes from.

954
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: It just short of showed up with an alphabet all

955
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: its own. Some people believe it is a hoax, but

956
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: so far, at the time of the recording, no one

957
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: has proven that to be the case. And then, of

958
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: course there's the Voyantage manuscript. We've talked about this in

959
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: an older video. This has come up in numerous episodes

960
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: just as a creepy cool uh I don't one of

961
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 1: those topics that you can bring up at any dinner

962
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: conversation and you'll you will be the talk the toast

963
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: of the dinner, the table, because it's just it's really cool.

964
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: But it doesn't have any inherently like occult ish. It

965
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: doesn't have spells. It's it's it's it's all these amazing gorgeous,

966
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 1: frankly illustrations of things that just frankly don't exist. Wow,

967
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 1: but they might, like plants that aren't real, you know,

968
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: in in a very naturalistic as though it were a

969
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: medical illustration of some sort or like like like you said,

970
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: a uh something from Darwin's Journalist perhaps like very much

971
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 1: looks to be observational illustrations, which is what makes it

972
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 1: so darn cool. It's named after the book dealer viefited

973
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: Wantach Wantach, who acquired the book in nineteen twelve, and

974
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 1: it's been dated to sometime around the fourteen hundreds, maybe

975
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: as recently as fourteen thirty eight. And it appears to be,

976
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: as you're saying, part pharmacopeia illustrations of plants and herbs,

977
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: but also part alchemy, part just treatise on the cosmos,

978
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 1: part of a encyclopedia for a world that doesn't exist.

979
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: And it appears that this is just scratching the surface

980
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: of one part of the world's evolution with magic, and

981
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: just just a few of those books. There's so many more.

982
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: But it appears that whether or not you believe in

983
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: magic yourself, there really is stuff they don't want you

984
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: to know about. Grim Wise will never know exactly how

985
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 1: many magical texts were lost to purges of ancient empires,

986
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 1: religious zealots, looters, and plunderers. And it's it's tantalizing to

987
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: know that some of these are mentioned in other texts

988
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: and we will never encounter them because the people who

989
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: didn't want you to know this numbered in the hundreds

990
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: of thousands, perhaps the millions, and they had executed this

991
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: conspiracy uh, thousands of years before we were twinkles and

992
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: our grandparents. I you know what I mean. Do you

993
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 1: think there's real magical knowledge that's hidden out there that's

994
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: gone it's just lost because these texts are gone. I

995
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: feel like there's got to be some kind of knowledge,

996
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 1: even if it's just herbal some herbalism stuff, what certain

997
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: plants can cure, you know, just trial and error over time.

998
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: I mean that, I'm sure that happens now. Pharmaceutical companies

999
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: have sent people into, you know, into very rural areas

1000
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: of the Amazon to research plants, uh, the efficacy of

1001
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 1: plants treein disease. If we're just spit bawling, I guess

1002
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 1: it's also possible that an ancient civilization could have documented

1003
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: the orbit of a comment or something that is so

1004
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 1: far out and comes so rarely totally we wouldn't be

1005
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 1: aware of it. Possibly we just saw last, not this

1006
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:00,160
Speaker 1: previous money, but last or was it this previous when

1007
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: they notice, yes, there's a by Earth giant asteroid that

1008
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: we've are just seeing for the first time, and then

1009
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's completely possible that there are

1010
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 1: books that are hidden and they were written by people

1011
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 1: who believed very much and what they were writing. And

1012
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there are suppressed works, whether those are

1013
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: waiting to be found or whether they destroyed they were destroyed,

1014
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 1: or whether they actually can do something, whether it's possible

1015
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: for us to summon something. I don't know. I think

1016
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,960
Speaker 1: we should try. Do you think we should try? I

1017
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: kind of want to try. We should. We should get

1018
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 1: woven in here again and Damien skim Let's do it

1019
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 1: Damian the creepy kid from the omen He and then

1020
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: our friend Damien. We'll get him to come into and

1021
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: be a powerhouse duo. Can you go double Damien? Is

1022
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 1: that like it's not gonna be like when two people

1023
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 1: in the same crew where hat wear the same hat.

1024
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: Two Damian's don't make a Shamie Shamian Damie. Right, Okay,

1025
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: all right, well, we do hope that we do hope

1026
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: that you enjoyed this episode. We're interested to hear what

1027
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 1: you think because there's so much information about Grimoise and

1028
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 1: there's such a i'll say it, fascinating evolution here that

1029
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: we're going to continue exploring this off the air and

1030
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 1: may have some updates for you, or may have some

1031
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 1: updates from you. For your fellow listeners. If you would

1032
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 1: like to read more about the evolution of grim Wise boy,

1033
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: have we got a book for you. Check out Grandois

1034
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: a History of Magical Books by Owen Davies. And if

1035
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: you like this kind of stuff, go to grim Wis

1036
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,920
Speaker 1: dot org. There it's just a place where you can

1037
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 1: look up different grimoires. Uh. And they're they're listed out

1038
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: through a timeline as well with the purported written dates

1039
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:18,160
Speaker 1: and throughout the centuries. It's good stuff. Do we have

1040
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: time for a little lust? Shut at corners? Excellent? Yes,

1041
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 1: thank you know. Our first shout out corner and goes

1042
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: to Devon w with it gets his own entire corner.

1043
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, he gets a part. He gets a part

1044
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,960
Speaker 1: of the corner. Scoot and scoot over Devin. Sorry, nobody

1045
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 1: puts Devin in a corner. Actually, I really like this.

1046
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 1: We're in one corner because there are four corners obviously,

1047
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 1: and then there are three shoutouts and each one is

1048
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: in a different corner, so it's more of a shout out.

1049
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 1: It's room. Yeah, all right, Well while we are working out, okay,

1050
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 1: we're gonna get some We're gonna get some pen and

1051
01:06:56,960 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 1: paper and figure this out or just some blood and pavirus.

1052
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:05,080
Speaker 1: Devin w rights it and says I love your podcast. However,

1053
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 1: I was listening guys recent show on the HEMP Car

1054
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 1: when guys were going through listener mail. You seem to

1055
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: be under the impression that Vladimir Putin was the head

1056
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 1: of the KGB at some point and think that'd be true.

1057
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: I did a little looking up and found, in fact,

1058
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: it was not. He left the service as lieutenant colonel.

1059
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: It makes sense since there's a narrative driven by the

1060
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: media lately. Anyways, just wanted to correct the record. Thanks

1061
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: for the Thanks for a great podcasts, Devin, Thank you

1062
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: even more for a great correction. These are very important

1063
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: to us. Uh this, Devin, you are correct. This was

1064
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 1: on me because the truth of the matter is that

1065
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 1: on July Yeltsin appointed Putin as the director of the

1066
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: f SP, the Federal Security Service, which is the successor

1067
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: to the Cold War a KGB. Devin, thank you even

1068
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: more for writing this one was on me. Folks is correct.

1069
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin was never the head of the KGB. He

1070
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 1: was appointed the director of the f s B, the

1071
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 1: successor to the KGB, on July by Yelson. So he

1072
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:15,920
Speaker 1: was in charge of the of the successor today it

1073
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 1: was in charge of the FSB Intelligence Service and was

1074
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 1: a high ranking official in the KGP. Yes, this one

1075
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 1: comes from josh At Shivers Smash on Twitter act conspiracy

1076
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 1: stuff nol. There are reports that the Smashing Pumpkins are

1077
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:34,599
Speaker 1: legitimately getting back together for a tour. You are a wizard, no, sir,

1078
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 1: not a wizard, a seer, a prophet, a sayer of sooth,

1079
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: a sooth sayer slayer. Yeah no, um, that's cool. I

1080
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 1: hope maybe maybe it'll keep Billy Corgan from saying dumb

1081
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,920
Speaker 1: stuff in the press and kidding suit over wrestling and

1082
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:55,719
Speaker 1: going on Alex Jones. That'd be cool. Play some music,

1083
01:08:55,800 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 1: Billy Corgan. I'd beat down with that. What why are

1084
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 1: you guys the eyeball on me? I gotta have issues.

1085
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,759
Speaker 1: I've got beef. The guy sort of, you know, ruined

1086
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:10,439
Speaker 1: my childhood by like being such a blowhard. And that's

1087
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 1: not the only tweet we got regarding Smashing. I have

1088
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:16,680
Speaker 1: feelings about Billy Corgan. I'm sorry, okay you. I was

1089
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:18,720
Speaker 1: just a huge fan when I was a kid. I

1090
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: thought he was such a sensitive lad. I felt like

1091
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 1: he really summed up by teenage angst, like I like

1092
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 1: melanchol in the infinite sadness. Yeah, I mean those you know,

1093
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:29,840
Speaker 1: doing the ten albums that affected your teenage years that's

1094
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 1: been making the rounds lately. Three of them were Pumpkins

1095
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 1: albums for me, So you know why you gotta do

1096
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 1: that to a kid, Billy Corgan anyway, another one, Um,

1097
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:44,840
Speaker 1: we had Philo cult uh tweet at us. You guys

1098
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 1: asked the Smashing Pumpkins to get back together and they did?

1099
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,840
Speaker 1: You know? It was just an inkling. It was an inkling. Well,

1100
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 1: maybe maybe there's something redemptive about it. Maybe the story

1101
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 1: of Noel Brown and the Smashing Pumpkins has a better ended. Maybe.

1102
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 1: So uh, I feel like Corgan, I still love you man,

1103
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: It's cool. I have opinions too. And the last shout

1104
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:14,559
Speaker 1: out goes to the Ben Randall at in the Weeds

1105
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,080
Speaker 1: w b R, who says, Yo, I don't even smoke weed,

1106
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 1: but I would totally smoke some sweet kitten whisper. I

1107
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:26,840
Speaker 1: think that is hilarious. I think anyone would really, Well,

1108
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 1: you can always you can always count on beds. They're

1109
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 1: good people, right, If I'm being honest, kitten whisper sounds

1110
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 1: like the name for a much harder drug than weed.

1111
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: I'm just putting out there. That's true. That's true. It's

1112
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 1: like if you see a really mean looking rough person

1113
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 1: and they have a very strangely uh soft nickname, you

1114
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:49,040
Speaker 1: need to be frightened of them. It's dear clear. Yeah,

1115
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:51,719
Speaker 1: if you see a seven ft two guy with visible

1116
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:56,680
Speaker 1: face scars named sprinkles run. Oh. Yeah, here's the other thing.

1117
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 1: What does a sweet kitten whisper like sound like? Mhmm,

1118
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:08,560
Speaker 1: are you gonna put something in there? I got I

1119
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 1: got nothing, man, No, I'm not gonna put anything in there.

1120
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 1: That's not a sound that the human voice can make. Okay,

1121
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 1: that is that is beyond our powers in this room. Right,

1122
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 1: it's gonna be unfair to whispers. I'm gonna do it.

1123
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 1: This is what a sweet kitten whisper sounds. I don't

1124
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,560
Speaker 1: know why. That makes me uncomfortable. Gives me the a

1125
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: s mr tingles, that's what I hear. Man. It's like, um,

1126
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 1: it's a meal. It's a sweet little kitten meal. But

1127
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:39,320
Speaker 1: it's also should we pop a sweet kitten meals? The

1128
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:42,000
Speaker 1: old dusty trail? Yeah, I think it's that recipe me

1129
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 1: out and that's the end of this classic episode. If

1130
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you

1131
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 1: can get into contact with us in a number of

1132
01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 1: different ways. One of the best is to give us

1133
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:58,080
Speaker 1: a call. Our number is one eight three three st

1134
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:00,720
Speaker 1: d w y t K. If you don't want to

1135
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email.

1136
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff

1137
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 1: they Don't want you to Know is a production of

1138
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1139
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1140
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.