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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. And

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Speaker 1: today I wanted to talk about fun because the other

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Speaker 1: day I was thinking about trying to explain what we

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Speaker 1: mean when we say something is fun, uh, particularly about

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Speaker 1: how the idea of fun is strongly related to the

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Speaker 1: idea of pleasure, but not exactly the same thing as it.

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Speaker 1: Most things that are fun are pleasurable, though maybe not

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Speaker 1: all things. And then there are tons of things that

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Speaker 1: are pleasurable but are not really fun, Like, despite the

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Speaker 1: the infamous name of the fun sized candy bar, I

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Speaker 1: think it would be really weird to say that eating

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Speaker 1: a piece of candy is fun, even though it is

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Speaker 1: pleasing in a sense. What might be fun in relation

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Speaker 1: to a candy bar, maybe like I don't know, making

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Speaker 1: candy bars with a friend, or like going out trick

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Speaker 1: or treating or something. Uh, And candy bars? Whoa making candy?

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Speaker 1: Who makes candy bars? Joe? I don't know. People do

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Speaker 1: all kinds of like kitchen projects with friends for fun,

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Speaker 1: don't they. I don't know. I've seen it on Great

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Speaker 1: British Baking Show. It looks fun. They're okay, fair enough.

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Speaker 1: I've never done it, though, I I do cook, but

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Speaker 1: I've never made candy. I don't know. It seems seems sticky. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess it is generally generally sticky. I mean, there

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Speaker 1: are candy I can I can picture people making various candies,

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Speaker 1: but for some reason, the candy bar in my mind anyway,

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Speaker 1: it instantly feels like this can only be produced by industry.

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Speaker 1: This is not something that is achievable by the by

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Speaker 1: the kitchen. I'm likely wrong about that. Well, so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's got to be hard to make the

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Speaker 1: ones with all the layers and stuff. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: people make multi layer of cakes and at also, why

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Speaker 1: not candy bars? Sure, okay, I was just throwing it

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Speaker 1: out there. It seemed like a potentially possibly fun act.

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Speaker 1: It somebody does, I don't know, trigger treating. That's fun, right, right?

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Speaker 1: And I think I think that's what Ultimately, that's what's

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Speaker 1: fun about fun sized candy bars. It's the idea that

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Speaker 1: since it is smaller, it may open itself up for

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Speaker 1: fun possibilities like trigger treating, like a fun additional treat

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Speaker 1: that's put into your lunch or something by your parents,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing, Right, So I want to open

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Speaker 1: this up to the original context in which I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about trying to define fun and finding some of

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Speaker 1: these difficulties. So, something I've noticed when we do our

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Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema episodes, the episodes we release on Fridays

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Speaker 1: where we we we just have fun talking about weird movies.

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Speaker 1: When we pick movies for this show, I feel like

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Speaker 1: one of the core things we look for is a

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Speaker 1: quality of fun. Though this does not correlate in any

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Speaker 1: consistent way that I can find with internal features of

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Speaker 1: a movie like a fun Weird House Cinema move movie

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Speaker 1: could be a an elegant, imaginative fantasy movie like Returned

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Speaker 1: to Oz. Or it could be an audacious, technically incompetent

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Speaker 1: cheese fest like Plan nine for Matter Space. Or it

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Speaker 1: could be a grainy, juicy barbarian movie like Conquest. These

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Speaker 1: are all movies we've done recently that have very little

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Speaker 1: or almost actually nothing in common with one with one

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Speaker 1: another in terms of objective contents or qualities. But what

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Speaker 1: unites them is that they're all these unusual genre exercises

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Speaker 1: and at least for you and I as viewers. They're

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Speaker 1: all fun. And there are lots of good movies that

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Speaker 1: I love that are not fun. The other day we

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Speaker 1: were talking about we're talking off Mike at least about

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Speaker 1: the movie Under the Skin, which is a good movie,

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Speaker 1: but it would be hard to say it's fun. So

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Speaker 1: fun isn't some necessary quality of good films or of

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Speaker 1: art or entertainment in general. But I think it's a

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Speaker 1: core element of weird house cinema. Yeah, I know what

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Speaker 1: you mean. I think most of, if most certainly most

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Speaker 1: of the films we've picked for weird health cetema I

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Speaker 1: would classify as fun. If in the cases where maybe

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Speaker 1: a film didn't turn out as fun as I was

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Speaker 1: hoping it was going to be, uh, you know, those

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Speaker 1: are more of the exceptions to the rule. But but yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is. It is hard to really figure out exactly

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Speaker 1: what is the fun thing because you know, like you said,

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Speaker 1: it maybe a children's movie and may be very lighthearted,

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Speaker 1: it may not be lighthearted, and maybe technically competent, it

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Speaker 1: may not be competent. They put together. Um, I was

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Speaker 1: trying to think of what would be a good example

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Speaker 1: of a film that feels this way to me, where

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Speaker 1: it's it's good, it's something I like, but it is

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Speaker 1: not maybe not fun. And I was thinking, well, maybe

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Speaker 1: the Texas Chainsaw Masker. It's an example that the original.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a film I would hesitate to

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Speaker 1: call fun, but I enjoyed it a lot when I, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, saw it. In times that I've seen it,

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Speaker 1: it remains stuck in my head. Is kind of like

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Speaker 1: an easy reference point for things. It has excitement in it,

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Speaker 1: it's in one is engaged in it, and yet I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I would say it is a fun movie.

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Speaker 1: And as we'll discuss, they're all sorts of qualifiers on that,

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Speaker 1: especially when we start talking about about media. Right So,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that we have this word that we use

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Speaker 1: extremely casually, and we both know what we mean when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about fun movies, and yet there are tons

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Speaker 1: of movies we like that are not fun, and the

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Speaker 1: fun movies that we like don't necessarily have really anything

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Speaker 1: in common. Right um Now, when we're talking about movies especially,

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Speaker 1: but also the other forms of media, I've I've heard

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Speaker 1: this employed for non cinematic media as well. Oftentimes you'll

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Speaker 1: see the fun description used as a positive counterpoint to good,

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Speaker 1: as in, hey, how is the new Jurassic World movie?

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Speaker 1: Was it good? It was fun? And maybe you're being

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Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to yuck anyone's yum, But

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Speaker 1: this is actually how I felt about the I guess

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Speaker 1: maybe the all three of the Jurassic World movies. I

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Speaker 1: would never argue that they were they were good movies

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Speaker 1: or great movies. Um. I wouldn't say they were my

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Speaker 1: favorite films. They weren't my favorite rampaging dinosaur movies, but

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Speaker 1: they were fine. They delivered on fun and um. And

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Speaker 1: of course it's just it's very subjective to even try

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Speaker 1: to explain like what that means, because at this point

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Speaker 1: we're just absolutely knee deep and subjective vaguary when it

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Speaker 1: comes to saying, well, this movie was good and this

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Speaker 1: one was fine. Well, you know one thing I would say,

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Speaker 1: they're uh, they're probably multiple ways of coming at this.

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Speaker 1: But when somebody asks is a movie good, you kind

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Speaker 1: of interpret that question is being about the intrinsic qualities

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Speaker 1: of the movie itself. I mean putting aside questions of

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Speaker 1: like whether you could actually objectively judge something like, you know,

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Speaker 1: is the script good? Is the acting good, but putting

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Speaker 1: you know that caveat aside. You're at least asking about

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Speaker 1: something that is true of the movie, no matter who's

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Speaker 1: looking at it. And when you talk about fun, you're

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Speaker 1: saying something more about like your experience of watching the

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Speaker 1: movie at the time and place that you did, like

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Speaker 1: I had a good time. Yeah, yeah, I mean there's

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Speaker 1: some like you said, there's so many ways of looking

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Speaker 1: at a film. You can just you can look at

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Speaker 1: it technically, you can, you can think of it, you know,

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Speaker 1: in terms of the acting, you can. You can purely

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Speaker 1: base it in your own experience of watching it or

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Speaker 1: a communal experience of watching Adam. And there's so many

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Speaker 1: ways to go to go at it. And yeah that

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Speaker 1: it is a vague question when someone asked is this

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Speaker 1: a good movie? Because on one level they're sort of

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Speaker 1: asking like what, they just want to know what did

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Speaker 1: you think about it? And should I see it? Would

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Speaker 1: I like it as well? Um? And uh yeah. Answers

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Speaker 1: can be all over the board. Sometimes it could be

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Speaker 1: like it's a great movie, you would hate it, it's

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Speaker 1: I loved it, You should not see it, and if

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Speaker 1: you do see it, please don't tell me about it

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Speaker 1: because I know that you won't like it, that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, yep, yep. So I wanted to look at

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Speaker 1: fun on the show because fun is clearly extremely important

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Speaker 1: in our lives. It's a type of experience that we

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Speaker 1: seek constantly as one of the core ways of of

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Speaker 1: enriching our existence, and yet it actually seems to be

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Speaker 1: a rather complex and elusive concept to define. Uh So

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Speaker 1: I thought it would be worth spending a couple of

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Speaker 1: episodes trying to examine the concept of fun and try

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Speaker 1: to see if we can draw any interesting conclusions about it. Now,

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Speaker 1: the immediate question that comes to my mind and all

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Speaker 1: of this, of course, is not only what is fun

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Speaker 1: and how can it be research, which of course we'll

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Speaker 1: get into, but also is it distinct from other areas

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Speaker 1: that have been researched so such as play, Because the

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Speaker 1: study of play would seem to be a big one,

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Speaker 1: as this is generally understood as the spontaneous activity of children,

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Speaker 1: as well as being central to game sports, many different

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Speaker 1: hobbies among all ages, and especially in children, play has cognitive, physical, emotional,

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Speaker 1: and social benefits. And I think that we've covered play

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Speaker 1: on the show before. I think the research we're about

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Speaker 1: to look at here considers play part of fun, but

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Speaker 1: not fun in and of itself, right right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of ideas that have

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Speaker 1: a significant overlap with the concept of fun, but are

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Speaker 1: not the exact same thing as it. Play is a

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Speaker 1: type of activity that I think would usually be described

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Speaker 1: as fun, though you could imagine types of play that

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Speaker 1: maybe are not fun, uh, and yet people would still

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Speaker 1: call them play. And you can also say that there's

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Speaker 1: tons of stuff that is fun that is not play.

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Speaker 1: So fun is bigger than play, but play often seems

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Speaker 1: aimed at fun. Yeah, Like if you had a camp

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Speaker 1: fund then and you had like really strict rules, you know,

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Speaker 1: you might be you couldn't really kick people out by saying,

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Speaker 1: well what you are you? Are you having pleasure over there?

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Speaker 1: No pleasure? This is camp fun? Get out? Or are

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Speaker 1: you playing? No playing? This is serious business. This is

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Speaker 1: camp fun. Out of here? Right. So to trying to

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Speaker 1: get underneath this, you know, the seemingly elusive and variable

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Speaker 1: characteristics of fun, One interesting thing to start with is

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Speaker 1: just say, okay, what if we just did a survey

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Speaker 1: and and see out in the wild, what types of

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Speaker 1: experiences do people consider fun? Like if you ask people,

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Speaker 1: tell me something fun you did recently. What are the

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Speaker 1: types of things that people are most likely to talk about,

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Speaker 1: and what do those experiences have in common? And here

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Speaker 1: I thought it might be useful to, uh, look at

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Speaker 1: a couple of parts of a paper that I found, uh,

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Speaker 1: that was published in two thousand ten in the journal

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Speaker 1: Psychology by a couple of researchers based out of University

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Speaker 1: College London. These authors are I See McManus and Adrian Fernhum.

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Speaker 1: And the paper is called fun Fun Fun, Types of fun,

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Speaker 1: attitudes to fun and the relationship to personality and biographical factors.

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Speaker 1: So already, even with the title, we're getting into the

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Speaker 1: fact that this is going to be highly dependent on

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Speaker 1: an individual's background and sensibilities. Well, you have to to

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Speaker 1: spoil one of their major conclusions. Uh, We're gonna end

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Speaker 1: up finding that there really is no such thing as

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Speaker 1: saying something is fun for everyone. Different groups of people

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Speaker 1: find different things fun and uh and often a lot

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Speaker 1: of people just seem to go around assuming that whatever

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Speaker 1: they find fun is what other people are going to

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Speaker 1: find fun. But it's not true. It made me think

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Speaker 1: of old Mickey Mouse magazine covers. I don't think I've

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Speaker 1: seen one of these and forever, but at least for

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Speaker 1: a very long time, the run of these magazines had

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Speaker 1: the slogan at the bottom, fun for the whole family

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Speaker 1: was guaranteed. And I mean even I have a small family, uh,

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Speaker 1: just talking about immediate family that my wife and my

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Speaker 1: son and and sometimes it's a challenge for us to

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Speaker 1: find fun for the whole family. And I think anyone

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Speaker 1: out there with a much larger family unit you can

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Speaker 1: certainly attest that this is not the case that Mickey

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Speaker 1: Mouse Magazine was lying to us. And yet at the

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Speaker 1: same time that that could make you feel, well, then

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Speaker 1: is it hopeless? Is there just nothing we can say

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Speaker 1: about fun? It's totally random. Obviously that's not the case either.

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Speaker 1: There are there are clearly certain types of activities that

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Speaker 1: large numbers of people agree on is fun, and so

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Speaker 1: it would be useful to figure out what are those

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Speaker 1: types of activities? Now, I wanted to mention a few

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Speaker 1: things from the background section before the authors get into

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Speaker 1: describing their original research, and one of the things they

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Speaker 1: start off with is discussing just the pervasive role of

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Speaker 1: fun in culture. And I had a thought about this

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Speaker 1: which Robert I wonder if you agree with this. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about how while you know, it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: part of basic human life to seek pleasure. We all

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Speaker 1: seek pleasure in some ways, a lot of pleasure seeking

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Speaker 1: activity is not openly discussed the same way that the

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Speaker 1: quest for fun is, even though there's a huge overlap

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Speaker 1: between fun and pleasure. It's it's totally normal and acceptable

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Speaker 1: to talk about trying to find fun and like seeking

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Speaker 1: out activities that will be fun, But it's kind of

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Speaker 1: weird to talk about trying to seek pleasure and seek

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Speaker 1: out activities that will feel good, do you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? Yeah, I mean unless you make a point

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Speaker 1: of it, if you're like really embracing a kind of

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Speaker 1: hedonistic uh um lifestyle, or it's you know, something you

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Speaker 1: know like Lavayan Satanism, where you're like, no, the purpose

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Speaker 1: of life is pleasure and that's what I'm all about,

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Speaker 1: you know. Otherwise, Yeah, it's it's it's kind of Another

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Speaker 1: example might maybe be coming around to like the ideas

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Speaker 1: of mindfulness and like a non attachment and seeking that

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Speaker 1: out and seeing that this is this is the way

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Speaker 1: to go through life and the sort of of mental

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Speaker 1: landscape to try to cultivate in your own mind. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: speaking of cultivating a sanctum in the mind. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: authors here, actually they include what I thought was a

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Speaker 1: kind of interesting quote from a different paper by a

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Speaker 1: couple of researchers and the C. D. Bryant and C. J. Forsyth,

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Speaker 1: And I'm not going to read the whole thing, but

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Speaker 1: they're speaking particularly about the place of fun in US culture.

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Speaker 1: And these other authors right quote the pursuit of fun

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Speaker 1: as a place of dominant centrality in our daily lives.

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Speaker 1: But fun seeking is not a compartmentalized area of our

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Speaker 1: cultural fabric. Rather, it is a constituent to almost every

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Speaker 1: aspect of our daily lives. Fun seeking is very much

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Speaker 1: integrated into our to our entire culture, in our daily

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Speaker 1: cycle of life, home, work, rest, maintenance, even sleep. Our

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Speaker 1: hedonistic quest has become a deified entity of its own,

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Speaker 1: the fun God, as it were. Uh. And elsewhere this

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Speaker 1: is phrased as the great God fun as kind of

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Speaker 1: like the great God pan um. But but I kind

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Speaker 1: of see what they're saying that, like, seeking fun is

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Speaker 1: not a separate activity to the other things we do

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Speaker 1: in our life, but rather seeking fun is sort of

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Speaker 1: in degraded as a part of all the other activities.

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Speaker 1: Now you could easily comment though in this case, especially

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Speaker 1: in the United States and many in many Western countries,

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Speaker 1: like to what extent is um is consumerism the dominant

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Speaker 1: way of life and the idea that things must be

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Speaker 1: purchased like so many of our purchases are made in

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Speaker 1: the name of fun. I mean, certainly, yes, not not

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Speaker 1: all of them is this. They're necessary purchases, the bills

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Speaker 1: to be paid, etcetera. But we if we have the

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Speaker 1: money to spend on fun, we tend to spend the

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Speaker 1: money on fun. Think about all of the attempts to

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Speaker 1: make you believe, I mean, whether or not these actually

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Speaker 1: work at least somebody's always trying to convince you that

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Speaker 1: shopping is fun, that work is fun, that education is fun.

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Speaker 1: It's it's fun to go to school, it's fun to sleep,

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Speaker 1: it's fun to work out, it's fun to eat your vegetables.

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Speaker 1: Like it's all supposed to be fun, at least according

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Speaker 1: to somebody. Yeah. Well, and to be fair, most of

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Speaker 1: these things can be fine but are not exclusively fun.

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Speaker 1: Um And some of these things are worth doing but

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Speaker 1: are not fun. Like well, one one example that came

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Speaker 1: up in the article. I noticed. The main study we're

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Speaker 1: going to discuss here is that is they brought up swimming. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's brought up kind of off handedly, as as just

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Speaker 1: a comment one might make or judge swimming is fun.

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Speaker 1: And then it's also brought up a little later a

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Speaker 1: little more specifically regarding like social context for swimming, which

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Speaker 1: which is interesting because on one hand, swimming with people

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Speaker 1: and enjoying a pool with people like, yes, I think

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Speaker 1: a lot more people might say that's fun. I would

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Speaker 1: say that's fun. But if it's like swimming laps for exercise,

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Speaker 1: which which I do most weekday mornings, I would never

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Speaker 1: classify that as fun. I do it. I think it's beneficial,

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Speaker 1: but I do not enjoy doing it in a way

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Speaker 1: that I would classify as fun. You know, is and

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Speaker 1: it's and it's nice to have done it, but then

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Speaker 1: it is not, but it's still not fun to have

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Speaker 1: done it, and I do not reflect on it as

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Speaker 1: having been a fun time. I think that's true, and

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Speaker 1: yet there are some people who do that and would

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Speaker 1: say it's fun. Yet again back to the interesting subjective variability,

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Speaker 1: and I think that may be related to certain types

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Speaker 1: of personality differences, even ones that you can sort of

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Speaker 1: measure on like a five factor personality model. Um, we'll

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Speaker 1: get more into that in a bit. To be clear too,

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Speaker 1: it probably depends on where you're swimming your laps. But

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Speaker 1: if it's just the same pool some in every day, um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, the fun factor probably wears off a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Oh yeah, I mean novelty. Novelty is a

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Speaker 1: big part of all this will will probably come back

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Speaker 1: to that. Yeah, yeah, I would say, In fact, I

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Speaker 1: suspect novelty is especially an important part of fun for

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Speaker 1: you because Robert, I think you are probably a person

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Speaker 1: who is high in openness to experience generally. So yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: So the authors are talking about how, at the time

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Speaker 1: they published this paper, the fundamental nature of fun was

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Speaker 1: an understudied subject in psychology. Remember a thing. This came

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Speaker 1: out in two thousand and ten, and most studies involving

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Speaker 1: fun at the time. We're about using fun as a

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Speaker 1: motivation or outcome state in something like education or healthcare

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Speaker 1: in some other context, rather than asking the basic question

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Speaker 1: like what types of experiences are most often categorized as fun?

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Speaker 1: What does it feel like to have fun? How do

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Speaker 1: people describe it, what other you know life and personality factoris,

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Speaker 1: does it correlate with? And Just as a side note,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to point out that while this study provides

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Speaker 1: a lot of insights, sometimes the authors phrase things with

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Speaker 1: an almost hilariously square addiction. I was singling out a

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Speaker 1: sentence where they say, conceptualizing fund is not straightforward, in

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Speaker 1: part because of the number of synonyms for funds such

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Speaker 1: as amusement, enjoyment, and entertainment. And in addition, every generation

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Speaker 1: seems to produce its own synonyms for funds, such as

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Speaker 1: far out or cool. But but they are correct, of course.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I absolutely agree that fun is its own

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Speaker 1: psychological and social phenomenon, but it can be difficult to

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Speaker 1: study because of its significant but not exact overlap with

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Speaker 1: other concepts like amusement, like entertainment, etcetera. And another thing

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Speaker 1: they point out is that we use the concept of

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Speaker 1: fun in different sort of grammatically functional roles. Like fun

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Speaker 1: can be just an adjective that describes an activity you know,

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Speaker 1: like that game was fun, or it can be a

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Speaker 1: state you are in, like I am having fun. It

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Speaker 1: is describing something about your sort of mental state in

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Speaker 1: the moment or it can be like a trait of

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Speaker 1: an activity or even a person like he's a fun guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like the the experience of it, like it's sometimes when

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Speaker 1: you're watching a movie, you may not be sure of

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Speaker 1: it is fun. Uh, and then you think back on

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Speaker 1: it and you have to decide, yes, it was fun.

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Speaker 1: It was fun. Ha ha, it was fun. Well, and

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Speaker 1: you know what, And in fact, I think that actually

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Speaker 1: does come down to some of the fun as a

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Speaker 1: trait of personalities, because you know people like this, right that,

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Speaker 1: Like you know certain people who they can take an

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Speaker 1: activity that would otherwise not be fun, and merely by

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Speaker 1: them participating in or reflecting on it, they make it fun.

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Speaker 1: That's a powerful kind of personality and a good friend

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Speaker 1: to have. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um. Likewise, though, you do

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Speaker 1: encounter people who, maybe especially in work environments, who maybe

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Speaker 1: how that they need to make it fun. Situations to

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Speaker 1: the person who um whoo, who not not only will

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Speaker 1: try to make it fun, must make it fun. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then of course you have the opposite, someone who

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Speaker 1: can take something that otherwise would be fun and make

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Speaker 1: it dull and depressing. Well, there go straight into one

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Speaker 1: of the next things they talked about, which is that

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Speaker 1: sometimes you can get inside on a slippery concept by

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Speaker 1: looking at its opposites. So if you say an activity

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Speaker 1: is fun, what what would be the most common descriptors

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Speaker 1: who describe the exact opposite type of experience. The authors

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Speaker 1: here suggest the the opposite descriptors would be tedious, boring,

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Speaker 1: or dull, which indicates to me that we often think

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Speaker 1: of fun as an activity that's stimulating. It's high engagement,

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Speaker 1: it easily holds our attention. And I think this is true.

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Speaker 1: But the semantic equation doesn't balance perfectly here, because it

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Speaker 1: does not follow that everything that is not tedious or

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Speaker 1: boring is fun. For example, being in danger is not

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Speaker 1: tedious or boring, but for most people it would not

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Speaker 1: be fun either, right right though? Of course, even there,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's good that you mentioned and not everyone,

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Speaker 1: because you see that creep to with adventure seeking, Like

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Speaker 1: some people's idea of fun and excitement is being is

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Speaker 1: jumping out of an airplane with a parachute. For other people,

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Speaker 1: that does not sound like a good time and not

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Speaker 1: something they are interested in doing for fun, exactly right. So,

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Speaker 1: based on all this so far, I think we very

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Speaker 1: often use the word fund to characterize activities that are

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Speaker 1: like UH, that are high on two different scales. One

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Speaker 1: is that they are stimulating, meaning they're the opposite of

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Speaker 1: boring they easily hold our attention, and the other is pleasant,

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Speaker 1: there's a positive valence rather than a negative one. UH

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Speaker 1: and I believe that these two things help get it

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Speaker 1: a lot of the concept of fund, but again still

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Speaker 1: not all of it than now. While the authors of

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Speaker 1: the study maintain that fun is not studied enough in

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Speaker 1: the psychological literature, at least not at the time this

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Speaker 1: paper was published, they linked to a couple of concepts

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Speaker 1: that have been studied and that have some strong features

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Speaker 1: in common with FUN, and one I thought this was

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Speaker 1: interesting is the idea of intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is

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Speaker 1: a concept in the psychology of motivation. So there are

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Speaker 1: tons of activities that we do because we're motivated by

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Speaker 1: desire to achieve some kind of consequence or outcome. For example,

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Speaker 1: when you cook dinner, you might cook dinner so that

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Speaker 1: you can eat or so that your family can eat.

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Speaker 1: So the food reward or the nurturing of family reward

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Speaker 1: is the desirable consequence that motivates you to cook. But

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Speaker 1: then again, some people might cook dinner literally just because

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Speaker 1: they enjoy the activity. They just like cooking, in which

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Speaker 1: case you would call this intrinsic motivation. Activities that we

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Speaker 1: do not because we're trying to achieve some consequence or outcome,

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Speaker 1: but because we just find the activity itself in some

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Speaker 1: sense rewarding. Now, I assume you're someone who generally finds

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Speaker 1: cooking enjoyable and fun. It depends for me. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I cook a lot, but it it's very much about

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Speaker 1: the context. If it's like a relaxed pace and I

430
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: can cook what I want and I'm not in a rush,

431
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 1: then yeah, it can be very pleasurable and fun. If

432
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: I'm like tire in a hurry and all that, it's

433
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,239
Speaker 1: it's not so much fun anymore. Okay, all right, Well,

434
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: maybe I'm not too far off the mark on that.

435
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: And a lot of times I find myself having to

436
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: reflect on it, on the experience, and also after finally

437
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: getting to taste the food, and then if if, if

438
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: the food is turned out, okay, if people seem to

439
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 1: enjoy it, and I look back on the experience of

440
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 1: cooking and it wasn't too frustrating, that I might say well,

441
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: that was a fun recipe, and also it had me

442
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: do something a little different. I think if I'm making

443
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: some sort of food that I haven't made before, but

444
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm also able to pull it off, then that's kind

445
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: of the sweet spot for for cooking being fun for me.

446
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say most of the time when

447
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 1: people cook, it's more an extrinsic motivation. You know, we're

448
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: doing it so that food will be ready, so that

449
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: we can eat, or so that we and our family

450
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: can eat, or so that somebody can eat. There's a

451
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: there's a goal directed nous to the activity. You're not

452
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: just doing it for fun, right, So there may be

453
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: a little satisfying bits in there, like for some reason, Um,

454
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: not that I don't like the chopping of garlic. I

455
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: find this to be tedious because the garlic slices stick

456
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: to the knife and then you have to shake them off.

457
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: But the removal of all the uh, the the external

458
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: wrapping around the bulb of garlic, the paper, Yeah, well

459
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: that's the part I enjoy. Like getting it ready to slice,

460
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: where you make it into this just perfect white pearl,

461
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: Like that's that's satisfying. Oh, it's almost like a like

462
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: a Simian grooming instinct. It's like a popping a pimple

463
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: or picking a bug out of hair or something. Um,

464
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. We're just kind of like it's the

465
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: cleaning of the thing, and then when you remove all

466
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: that wrapping, it's like it's so pristine and perfect. It's

467
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 1: like it's like finding a gym stone, uh and removing

468
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: the you know, the dirt from it and polishing it up.

469
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, something something like that. It feels very

470
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 1: and it almost feels like a non food activity totally.

471
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: I get what you're saying. Okay, So, so there's some

472
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: mix of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation and in cooking probably

473
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: for most people, but it's I would say it's probably

474
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: most of the time more extrinsic. But so this intrinsic

475
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: motivation is things we do because we just we just

476
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: like them. There's something about it we just want to

477
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: do for its own sake. Now, this clearly has some

478
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: overlap with fun. Lots of things are intrinsically motivating because

479
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: they're fun. However, I can also think of lots of

480
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: intrinsically motivating activities that are not fun at all and

481
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: almost nobody would call them fun. A good example, I

482
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: would say, is scrolling social media or doom scrolling. I

483
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: don't think I do it, and I don't think most

484
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: people do it with the hope of achieving some consequence

485
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: or outcome. The motivation for the scrolling is contained within

486
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: the activity itself. You're doing it because it just feels

487
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 1: like something you should do, and yet it's not fun

488
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: at all. It's miserable. Yeah, I would agree. So wait, wait,

489
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: with a caveat unless you're just on a particular platform

490
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: and you've own got cute cat memes and animations and whatnot,

491
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 1: if you so calibrated so that you can ensure like

492
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: maximum fun per scroll, then then I guess that would

493
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: make sense. Right, You're you're not letting the full swamp

494
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: of misery get to you. Maybe if you're just like

495
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: focusing on one thing that is actually fun, then it's fun. Right.

496
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: But even that, as we'll discuss, that has its limits

497
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: to al right, So intrinsic motivation, there's some relationship to

498
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: the idea of fun, but it's not exactly the same

499
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: thing the other ideas the concept of happiness studied in

500
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: positive psychology. Clearly there is a relationship between happiness and fun.

501
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: In fact, well, as we'll get to in a minute.

502
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 1: When people in this survey were asked to describe an

503
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: experience that they considered fun, the single most common descriptor

504
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: that they later applied to that activity is the word happiness.

505
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: But it's clear that once again, happiness and fun are

506
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: not exactly the same thing. There are tons of situations

507
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: you can describe being happy, but you wouldn't call them fun.

508
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: You might just be, uh, I don't know, sitting around

509
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: doing nothing, and a lot of people might say, well,

510
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: I'm happy, but am I having fun? Not really? Fun

511
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: means probably something else to me. Happiness itself, of course,

512
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: is also difficult to define their multiple competing models of

513
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: it in the in the literature, UH, and so forth.

514
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: So this study in particular is trying to help shed

515
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: some light on the concept of fun. By first, it

516
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: used some qualitative methods like some focus groups and interviews

517
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: involving a whole bunch of undergrads in a in a

518
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: psychology lab to try to pull out some UH some models,

519
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: and design a questionnaire survey questionnaire UH to ask people

520
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: about fun, to ask what types of activities or experiences

521
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,239
Speaker 1: do people most often describe as fun? How is the

522
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: experience of fun related to demographic factors like age, sex,

523
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: and social class, as well as related to how is

524
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: it related to education and personality as measured by the

525
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: five factor personality model. Also, how do people's attitudes towards

526
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: fund differ. Now we've got a weirdness alert on this

527
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: on the methodology here. Unfortunately, this is just often the

528
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: case with psychological studies, especially older ones. But it looks

529
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: like the majority of the participants in this study where

530
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: college students or recent college students in the UK. So,

531
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: as always, you got to hold that caveat in your head.

532
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: Results are limited and may or may not be different

533
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: if the same study were done in the more general public,

534
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: in the same country or in a different country or culture.

535
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: Now I'm not going to explain all of their findings,

536
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: but I wanted to highlight a couple of things that

537
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: seemed interesting. One is uh a part of their their

538
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: survey that was the fun situation. So they asked all

539
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: participants to think of a typical situation in their life

540
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: in which they were having fun, and then they were

541
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: asked to describe what was happening in that situation in

542
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: their own words and a few words, and then they

543
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: were given a list of forty two descript and asked

544
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: to circle the ones that would correctly describe the situation

545
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: they had in mind. Now, obviously I'm not going to

546
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: list all forty two of these, but I wanted to

547
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: note a few of the extremes, the descriptors that were

548
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: most often and least often matched with the situation people

549
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 1: were thinking of. At the top of the scale, you

550
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: had the word happy. That's seventy one eight percent of

551
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: fun situations we're happy, laughing was laughing applied to sixty

552
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: two point two percent of fun situations entertained at I'm

553
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: gonna round off the decimals here fifty two percent, stress

554
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: free at forty eight percent, excited at forty eight percent,

555
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: energetic attent, relaxed at forty seven percent, joyful at forty four,

556
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,959
Speaker 1: joking at forty four, playful at forty three. And then

557
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: at the bottom of the scale the opposite end, you've

558
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: got vulnerable at four percent, fearful at five percent, nervous

559
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 1: at seven percent, lazy at eight percent, private at nine percent,

560
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: lustful at nine percent, sensual at nine percent, and surprised

561
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: at ten percent. Now, I think it's worth noting that

562
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: even the highest two percentages, the two ones, the two

563
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: that were the most common in fun situations, happy and laughing,

564
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: were only in the range. And even the lowest rated

565
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: descriptors there are still five to ten percent of situations

566
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: that they apply to. People usually would not describe being

567
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: vulnerable or fearful as as fun, but you know, roughly

568
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: five percent of people thought of a situation and that

569
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: was an accurate descriptor well, I mean it kind of

570
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: reminds me of movies. Uh, for instance, Jordan Peel's Nope

571
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: movie that came out last month or a couple of

572
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: months ago. I think I've probably felt vulnerable, fearful and nervous.

573
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: There were stretches of the movie. Um, but I like

574
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: the movie a lot. What I classify it is fun?

575
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: Probably not? Probably not, but you've brought it up. You've

576
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: brought it up a few times. I still haven't seen it.

577
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm behind the curve. But some people

578
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: might very well say it was it was fun, and

579
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: I wouldn't think ill of them for saying that's a

580
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: fun movie. I wouldn't even really second guess it or

581
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: feel like I needed to like jump in and be like, no,

582
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: not a fun movie, and let me explain why now.

583
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: In this study, based on their research, the authors tried

584
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: to extract some major categories or types of fun found

585
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 1: throughout the activities being described, and they ended up with

586
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: five factors here. These are not mutually exclusive, so a

587
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: fun activity could involve one or more of these factors

588
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: at the same time, but they seem to be the

589
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: five big ones. And I'm not sure I think in

590
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: every case they've picked the best terminology for for titling

591
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: these types of activities and their linked descriptors. But once

592
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: I read the descriptions, I think these five really do

593
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: make a lot of sense, and they are sociability, contentment, achievement, sensual,

594
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: and ecstatic. Now I'll describe each one briefly. Sociability is

595
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: activities involving talking, laughing, joking, going out to social functions,

596
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: and otherwise engaging with friends. This seems to be a

597
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: very uh other people oriented type of fun. A major

598
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: emphasis seems to be on relationships with others and doing

599
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: things with others, especially doing things with others that involve talking.

600
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: That's one. Number Two is contentment. This is activities that

601
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:35,479
Speaker 1: are often described as quote peaceful, warm, relaxed, loving, caring

602
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: uh And these can be with others or alone, but

603
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: the emphasis really seems to be on peace and relaxation

604
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: activity scoring high in this nexus, we're gardening, relaxing at home, swimming,

605
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: going to the beach, or going to a favorite cafe.

606
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: So this seems to be like a very uh an

607
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: idea of fun based on cultivating and experience of sort

608
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: of gentleness and low stress. Third factor, this one they

609
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: call achievement. I don't know if achievement is the best

610
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: term for this, but this type of activity involves states

611
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: described as quote focused, challenged, accomplished, absorbed, and engrossed, and

612
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: contains some sense of a flow state. Uh. Now, when

613
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: I read that, that makes sense. I think this category

614
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 1: involves games, sports, engrossing or creative work performances and so forth.

615
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: So I think this grouping of activities is really sort

616
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: of about total engagement of your attention and abilities in

617
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: a challenging and intrinsically rewarding pursuit. So this might include

618
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: everything from playing basketball to playing a musical instrument or

619
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: or doing creative writing or some other creative work. Doing

620
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: deeply engrossing research, a sort of total attention encapsulating pursuit.

621
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: This is also where I would classify my experience. It's

622
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: a swimming laps at the y like this is just

623
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: it's it's it's just about about focusing entirely on what

624
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 1: I'm doing, uh, and spending my whole headspace and also

625
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: my all of my physical energy in this one practice

626
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: and getting it done. But like I said, swimming with

627
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: the friends, I can see that definitely lines up with sociability,

628
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: and say swimming and a relaxing and beautiful I don't know,

629
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: mountain spa environment that would definitely line up with contentment.

630
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: So it's gonna come come down a lot to not

631
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: only you know who you are, but where are you

632
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: doing this? What are the what's the environment? And what

633
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: are there Are there other people around and are you

634
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: communing with them? I mean there are other people around

635
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: when I'm swimming at the y, but everyone and everyone's

636
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: literally in their own lane doing their own thing. Is

637
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: not a very social experience. You're not chatting while you're

638
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: while you're doing the laps. Well, occasionally I chat a

639
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: little bit with with someone that I see there all

640
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: the time. We'll say, exchange some pleasant he said, there's

641
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 1: a little of it. I want to make it sound

642
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 1: totally grind. Okay, two more categories. One is sensual. This

643
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: would tend to include sensory experiences, fun sensory experiences involving

644
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 1: stimulation of the senses, but also romantic love. This seems

645
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: to include sex and romance as well as things like

646
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: good food and good company. So the spa swim could

647
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 1: also line up here. You know, you're surrounded by beautiful surroundings,

648
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: their flowers, maybe you're there with the romantic partner, that

649
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Sure, and then you got the fifth category,

650
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: This is ecstatic. These are activities I thought this one

651
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: was really interesting, things that put you in a heightened

652
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: state of positive excitement or euphoria. Commonly referenced activities in

653
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 1: this category include partying, going out, dancing at nightclubs, going

654
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: to concerts, going to raves. I think very focused on

655
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: like dancing and music especially, but also just sort of

656
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: like partying and clubbing, getting yourself into, often with others,

657
00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: a heightened state of excitement. Now, as I mentioned earlier,

658
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: one thing the study makes extremely clear is that while

659
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,959
Speaker 1: there are some pretty common features to activities, described as fun.

660
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: It is wrong to assume you can make something fun

661
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: for everyone. People just have different ideas about fun, and

662
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: these are often correlated to things like personality differences. So

663
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: for a few examples of correlations between types of fun

664
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: that are more often reported in demographic factors as well

665
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: as personality factors, the authors found quote, overall, women reported

666
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: more fun situations involving sociability and contentment and less with achievement,

667
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: and older respondents reported more fun involving contentment and achievement

668
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: and less sociability, sensual or ecstatic fun. So you this

669
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: may explain why you don't often see very old people

670
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: at raves. I don't know. Rave music is getting getting

671
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: kind of old now, so maybe you do see a

672
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of older people at it raves.

673
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 1: But then they also list personality factors, and here they

674
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: they reference the Big five personality model. This is where

675
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: personalities are charted along five dimensions. You've got extraversion, neuroticism,

676
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: openness to experience, agreeableness, and conscientiousness. Uh. And the the

677
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: authors here say they found quote extra version was associated

678
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: with sociability and ecstatic fund. Okay, that seems uh what

679
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: you might expect right, Extroverts tend to be more focused

680
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: on fund that involves getting together with other people, socializing

681
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: and having sort of I don't know, like going clubbing

682
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: or going partying or something. Uh. They found to pick

683
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: up with the quote again. They found agreeableness with more

684
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: fun involving sociability and less that was sensual, and openness

685
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: to experience with more fun involving achievement. Uh So, I

686
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: found that last one kind of interesting. That uh that

687
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: openness to experience tends to be associated with the personalities

688
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: that like novelty as opposed to familiarity. Um and uh so,

689
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: apparently openness to ex sperience is correlated with that that

690
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: category that is, like these really focused activities that might

691
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: involve everything from like sports to playing a musical instrument

692
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: to uh, you know, being absorbed in the task. You know,

693
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: this is all interesting to think of in terms of

694
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: the beach. When one goes to the beach. You know,

695
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: we all have our own things that we're into. But

696
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: you you also, if you go to a beach that

697
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: is in your number of people there with you, uh

698
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, strangers and other families, etcetera, you do get

699
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: to see all these different levels of engagement, all these

700
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: different personality types, perhaps engaging with the environment that's provided there.

701
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: You know, for some people, this is where you just

702
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: you sit on the beach and you read, you stare

703
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: off into the middle distance. Maybe you go for a walk. Uh,

704
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: maybe you go for a run. Maybe it's about building

705
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: a sandcastle. Maybe it's about playing volleyball against a rival team.

706
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: Maybe it's about keeping your distance from other people. Maybe

707
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: it's about meeting other people. You know, it gets it's

708
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: an environment where you see all these different types of

709
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 1: fun being had with some overlap but not not necessarily

710
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 1: overlap between them. Well, and I think that actually is

711
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 1: a good point that, Yeah, activities that really are quote

712
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: fun for the whole family are those that allow different

713
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: people to do different things within them. You know, so

714
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: like different members of the family are gonna have different

715
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: ideas of what's fun. Things that succeed in pleasing all

716
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: of them usually succeed by allowing them to focus on

717
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: different things. I can't imagine how a ten cent copy

718
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: of Mickey Mouse magazine, though from whatever decade this was

719
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: some I'm guessing NID or early twentieth century, can't imagine

720
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: how this had true fun for the whole family. Maybe

721
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: it did. I can only judge it by its cover,

722
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: which I've been told not to do, so I don't know.

723
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: Maybe i'd be surprised than now. Now. I haven't covered

724
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: everything that's in this study. I think there's more to

725
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: say about it. I may come back to it in

726
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: a subsequent part of this series, but for the sake

727
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: of time in this episode, I think I want to

728
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: move on, uh to to address a question that I

729
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: know you were interested in, Rob, because I I think

730
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: that this is a core question within the subject of fun.

731
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 1: What makes a game fun? You know, we have all

732
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: played various games, games of various types, sports board games,

733
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: video games, party games, and it's pretty clear that, well,

734
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: of course, everybody's going to have different preferences, there are

735
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: some that just overall are way more fun than others.

736
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: Aside from all the you know, the external factors that

737
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: that do make a difference, such as when, where, and

738
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: how and with whom a game is played. I was wondering,

739
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,840
Speaker 1: what are the factors intrinsic to the design of a

740
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: game itself that make it more or less fun? Yeah,

741
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: this is a great, great question. Um, it can be

742
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: kind of a maddening question as well. It reminds me

743
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: of of my experience with jigsaw puzzles. For example, jigsaw

744
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: puzzles are something I'll admit or are addictive. I like

745
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: the social aspect of people working together on solving a

746
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle. I like the rewarding experience of finishing that

747
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzle, especially some of these these newer ones that

748
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 1: have like special hidden sections and all sorts of neat

749
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: bills and whistles. They've really come a long way. Uh

750
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: And of course just nothing else, finally getting to see

751
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: the fruits of your labor. That that cool image I'll

752
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: laid out there on the kitchen table. But uh I

753
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 1: would I would never classify putting a jigsaw puzzle together

754
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: as fun um, and yet I'll continue to do it.

755
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna avoid putting together jugs

756
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzles. And if someone has a cool and I'm

757
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: I'm I'm all in. Uh So, there's something about and

758
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: a jigsaw puzzle isn't quite a game, but it lines

759
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: up with some of the things that games are. Uh So,

760
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: if something like a jigsaw puzzle can be addictive and rewarding,

761
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: and social but also not fun. Then what does that

762
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: tell me about about game design? What does that tell

763
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: me about the prospect of finding than a game that

764
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: will be truly fun for the whole family, Because that's

765
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: something I do think about a lot now, and I'm

766
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: act actively seeking out games that uh that my wife

767
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: and I and our son can play together, the three

768
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: of us, and everyone can agree that we're having fun

769
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: when we do it. Because I know that I was

770
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: left of my own devices, I would tend to go

771
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: for maybe a more complex game, maybe something a little

772
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: more strategic. My wife would tend to go for something

773
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: more casual. And my son, being ten, he's more He's

774
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: into games that are going to cater to his sense

775
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: of imagination. It's going to have some level of strategy

776
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: to it. But also I think it really helps if

777
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: it's something he feels like he can win, and certainly

778
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: if he can win at it um, which which is

779
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: interesting especially given something I'm gonna bring up here in

780
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: a bit um, so you know, there, I'm going to

781
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: lean more towards the game where I have to really

782
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: think and take my time about each turn. They're both

783
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: more into some of these action based games like spot

784
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: It or Taco Cat Go Cheese Pizza, which which that

785
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 1: is certainly a game that I find more stressful than anything.

786
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: If you played this one, Joe, no, I haven't. There's

787
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 1: a lot of I mean, it's it's not that different

788
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: from a lot of card games where there is a

789
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: certain amount of like slapping the table or slapping cards

790
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: and you have to be on your feet. I like

791
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 1: games where you have some some time to really breathe

792
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: it all in and decide on what your next move

793
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: is going to be. I even like my video games

794
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: like that give me a nice turn based game, let

795
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: me take my time. I also appreciate as far as

796
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: like card games and board games go, I really appreciate

797
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: if it's not something I have where I have to

798
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: be on my toes when it's not my turn. So

799
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: as an aside, if anyone has any good recommendations for us,

800
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: let let me know. But I will say that games

801
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: like Katan Dominion these are these are good balances for everyone.

802
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: We've found know. These are games that that that are sociable,

803
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: but they also have room for you know your own

804
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: personal strategy and uh and at the same time, they

805
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: are also games that a ten year old can definitely

806
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: win at now. I thought we might come back, at

807
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: least briefly to a previous episode of stuff to blow

808
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: your mind for this next bit, because I think it's

809
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: important to remember that a board game or a card game,

810
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,919
Speaker 1: but basically any sort of game we might be thinking

811
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: about in this context of fun is a finite game

812
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: as opposed to an infinite game. And I thought we

813
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: might just review a little bit about that from our

814
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: previous episode on finite and infinite games. Oh yeah, it

815
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: was a book by James peak Cars that. Man, it's

816
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 1: been a while since we did that episode. I thinks

817
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: like three or four years now probably. Oh yeah, yeah,

818
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: it's been that long for sure, but a really interesting

819
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 1: book that applies to a lot of things in life,

820
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: not just literal games, though it does apply to literal games,

821
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: but uh, the basic idea of the metaphor being that

822
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: finite games are games that, um that are bounded in

823
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: some way like they have they have fixed rules and

824
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: a win condition and you know when they're over, and

825
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: the goal of a finite game is to win, whereas

826
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: infinite games are games without fixed rules or boundaries or

827
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: win condition, and the purpose of the game is to

828
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: keep the game going. Yeah yeah, and also had that

829
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: a finite game is voluntary, you're only playing it if

830
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: you want to, and there are temporal boundaries as well,

831
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: like it's going, it's gonna have a beginning and it's

832
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: gonna have an end, whereas infinite games, yeah, you're just

833
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: are you alive while you're playing it? Congratulations? And when

834
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: does it end? It never ends? When did it begin? Well,

835
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: we might look to the history books, but maybe that's

836
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: hard to nail down as well. So infinite games you

837
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: get into areas I mean, ultimately I would recommend go

838
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: back and listen to that episode or certainly reading this book,

839
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: but uh yeah, you get into large areas of live

840
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: like politics and wicked problems and so forth. But the

841
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: fine I think the finite nature of many games, board games,

842
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: card games, video games as well is that is that

843
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: they are the world made small. So a game like

844
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: Settlers of Catan is about trade and economics, but it

845
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: is trade and economics condensed into a form that everyone

846
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: can grasp, compete, and excel at within a set time limit. Um,

847
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: While you cannot say the same thing for economics as

848
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: a whole, for global trade, etcetera. Likewise, I'm a big

849
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: fan of miniature war games, at least when they're you know,

850
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: firmly based in fantasy or science fiction, which like a

851
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: lot of a lot like a lot of combat related games,

852
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: they're a simplification of struggle and strategy. I guess fighting

853
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,439
Speaker 1: games of video games and so forth can also fall

854
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: into this category as well. And I think they are

855
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 1: once again, you know, they are the world made small.

856
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: They are this thing that is large and complex made

857
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: into a smaller form that can be grasped, that can

858
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: be uh excelled at, etcetera. Okay, well, so I assume

859
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: when you play a tabletop sci fi war game, you're

860
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 1: not doing it because you're you're competing for a big

861
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 1: pot of prize money or something. You're doing it for

862
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: the intrinsic reward of the game itself. Something is fun

863
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: about it. So what makes that fun? Yeah? I mean personally,

864
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: I think a big part of it is like a

865
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: game is maximum fun when it is fully captivating. Kind

866
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: of getting back to some of the stuff where we

867
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: talked about, like you know, flow states and so forth. Um,

868
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: it's not too complex, but it's not too light on engagement.

869
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: Perhaps it's inspiring, it's creative. You know, it's competitive in

870
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 1: some form and that and I have to stress there,

871
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: especially with so many different choices in games today, that

872
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: competition might not be against another player. It might be

873
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: against the game or the game system. It might be

874
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: against an ai, um, it might be against yourself. But

875
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: there is some sense of like, I'm I'm in this,

876
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: I'm doing things and there is something that I'm I'm

877
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: i'm competing against, you know. So I was looking around

878
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: for some some expert thoughts on this, and and there's

879
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: a book that came out, I think it came out

880
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: about about ten years ago at this point by Ralph Coster,

881
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: a game designer and one of the people behind Ultimate Online.

882
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: He wrote a book titled Theory of Fun for Game Design,

883
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: and his core thesis in all of this is that

884
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: learning and fun are essentially the same inside the brain.

885
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, I've got a study in child development that

886
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: relates to this, but I guess we won't get to

887
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: it till the next episode. But that yeah, yeah, like

888
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: he writes, quote, fun, as I define it is the

889
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 1: feedback the brain gives us when we are absorbing patterns

890
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: for learning purposes. You know if this is true. It

891
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: kind of relates to an idea we've talked about before,

892
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,919
Speaker 1: which is a hypothesis. Uh. I apologize in the moment,

893
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: I forget who this is attributed to. There was a

894
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: book that talks about the idea that what if um

895
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: the biological explanation for humor, like why we find find

896
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: things funny is that it is an intrinsically motivating reward

897
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: for debugging ideas in the brain, essentially for resolving some

898
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: type of confusion or conflict within the brain. When you

899
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: resolve the conflict and fix the problem, uh, then you

900
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,959
Speaker 1: are rewarded with the feeling of funniness. Yeah. I hadn't

901
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: thought about the connection there, but that's good. And so

902
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: this would be a similar idea, not exactly the same,

903
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: but related that the sense of intrinsic motivation we get

904
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: for fun is a reward system, an internal feedback reward

905
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: system when the brain is doing some kind of important

906
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: discovery process. Yeah, and I totally get this. I feel

907
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 1: like it. It matches up with some of my experiences

908
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: about things that I would subjectively consider fun um. Taking

909
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: a new nature walk or even an old nature walks

910
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: into nature is not something that's fixed, it changes, and

911
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: therefore every every walk is an exploration. Likewise exploring a museum,

912
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: you're seeing and learning new things. Even following a narrative

913
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: is a learning experience. And be that narrative something that is,

914
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: you know, meaningful and important or you know, kind of stupid,

915
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: it's still something you have to move through and learn

916
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 1: from and follow um. And certainly interacting with the gaming

917
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 1: system and or competing against human opponents within that system,

918
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: there's learning going on there as well. I'm learning the game,

919
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: I'm also learning how my opponent engages with this game,

920
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: and so Costa rights quote. Games are puzzles to solve,

921
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: just like everything else we encounter in life. They are

922
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: on the same order as learning to drive a car,

923
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: or picking up the mandolin or learning your multiplication tables.

924
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: We learn the underlying patterns and file them away so

925
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: that they can be run as needed. And he also

926
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: points out quote games grow boring when they fail to

927
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: unfold new niceties in the puzzles they present. Yeah. When

928
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: the game gets boring, when you feel like there is

929
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: nothing interesting to discover. Yeah yeah. He writes that games

930
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: need to keep people engaged in a flow state. Encountering

931
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: immersive puzzles and challenges, and once challenge is mastered, it

932
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: becomes routine. And this certainly reminds me of games that

933
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,720
Speaker 1: end up focusing way too much on grinding for resources

934
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: and unlocking rewards. When a game's play life is artificially

935
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: extended by dangling these prizes, but the gameplay itself has

936
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 1: become wrote, Um, I'm no longer exploring, I'm no longer

937
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: testing myself against anything. I'm just executing the routine for

938
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 1: the mild reward of you know, winning various in game

939
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: costumes or whatever whatever it happens to be. I've certainly

940
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: had this experience with games where like, clearly I have

941
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: reached the end of the game's real life cycle. I

942
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,720
Speaker 1: shouldn't be playing it anymore, but I'm keeping I continue

943
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:02,840
Speaker 1: to play it because I think I need to maybe

944
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: unlock this thing, or you could just pay seven unlock

945
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: that thing. True, true that it's all the same, to

946
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: the to the game punt companies, right. I'm also reminded

947
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: in this of games that, um what where they have

948
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: some lack of balance, perhaps in the challenge throughout the game,

949
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: like games that are more challenging in the beginning, or

950
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: more challenging in the middle of the game, Those can

951
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 1: feel a bit wonky, especially if the final act of

952
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: said games feels like more of a victory lap. Um.

953
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 1: I felt this way about x Com games in the past.

954
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: It's a franchise that I that I that I love.

955
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: I know others have had this experience with it before,

956
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 1: where you have an intensely rewarding challenge in the early

957
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: stages of the game, like can I keep my people alive?

958
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 1: Can I can just even get to the next mission

959
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 1: while we having to deal with all these other fires

960
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 1: all around me. But then towards the end of the game,

961
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: or at least some of these games in this franchise,

962
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: you perhaps get a little bit over powered. You're very

963
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: confident about everything, And I wouldn't say that say that

964
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: the game stops being fun entirely, and certainly if it

965
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: is a victory lap, it's a victory lap you very

966
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: much earned by that point, and you still have the

967
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: game to beat, You still have these characters continue to follow,

968
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: but the learning fun balance is certainly a bit different

969
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: by that point. Now, for a different approach to the

970
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,439
Speaker 1: same question, I ran across a fun article called why

971
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: Do People Love Games? By Sam von Aaron, former game

972
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: master for the New York Times, writing for the New

973
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 1: York Times, and he touches on something that I was

974
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: also thinking about, like this idea of of must a

975
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: game be fun? And uh and this is what this

976
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: author has to say. Quote. Games sometimes model real world systems,

977
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: allowing free exploration of their interlocking processes. The precursor to Monopoly,

978
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Maggie's The Landlord's Game, was created to model and

979
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: critique capitalism by giving players an opportunity to feel its

980
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: failings firsthand. It was not very fun, but that's okay.

981
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: One of the dark secrets of game design is that

982
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: games don't need to be fun to be meaningful. The

983
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: board game Pandemic explores the trials of dealing with a

984
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 1: now too familiar global crisis. News organizations have used games

985
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: as well pro public as The Waiting Game captures the

986
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 1: experiences of refugees trying to enter the United States, and

987
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Media created American Mall, a digital game giving players

988
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 1: firsthand experience with the decline of brick and mortar malls

989
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: in the face of growing e commerce. Well, yeah, that's interesting.

990
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: That's thinking about um games that are for something different

991
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: than what games are usually for. Usually it's you know,

992
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: you think of it as something that people can just

993
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: sort of do casually for fun. But there are games

994
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:49,919
Speaker 1: that you could also think of more like a work

995
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: of art or like a like a movie or like

996
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: a painting or an article in a magazine that could

997
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: tell you something about the broader world rather than just

998
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: teaching you the mechanics of the game. Game. Yeah, yeah, now,

999
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: I I will say that I did play the Pandemic

1000
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:07,720
Speaker 1: board game pre Pandemic, and at least at the time

1001
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: it was, I would say it was fun. Perhaps it

1002
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't be fun anymore, but it's still around. I don't know.

1003
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: I played it a couple of times and I remember

1004
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: thinking it seemed absolutely impossible. Maybe I was just not

1005
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: good at it, but it was like unwinnable. Oh really,

1006
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: I can't things I can't remember if we want or not,

1007
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 1: but that that was one of the things that was

1008
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: that was good about it, Like it was a game,

1009
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: and I think this was one of maybe one of

1010
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: the first really cooperative group games like this that I

1011
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: played at that point. Like that alone was was great,

1012
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: like we're all working together and there are no hidden spies,

1013
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: No one's secretly a werewolf or a cylon or anything.

1014
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: We're all truly working together on this. Maybe I just

1015
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 1: got unlucky when I was playing. I remember thinking like, okay,

1016
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: we're trying to set up some research bases, and then

1017
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 1: suddenly it's just everywhere, and it's like what, we didn't

1018
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: even have a chance. I don't know now. Von Aaron

1019
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: also described some thing I thought was really insightful. He

1020
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 1: talks about the magic circle as bring the place where

1021
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: a game takes place, and this reminds me of what

1022
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: we're just talking about concerning finite and infinite games. He writes, quote,

1023
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: I use the metaphor of a chalk line because the

1024
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: magic circle is not an absolute barrier or even a

1025
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: physical one. We can enter an exit the magic circle freely.

1026
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: We bring our bodies, personalities, and life experiences into the game.

1027
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: We take the memories and experiences of the game with

1028
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: us when we leave. The chalk line casts a spell

1029
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: on that space of sidewalk and turns it into a

1030
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: space for playing. So, in a way, participating in a

1031
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: game is much like suspending your disbelief when watching a

1032
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: fantasy film or something You know you you have to

1033
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: you have to step across the line voluntarily. Yeah. And

1034
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: and he also points out that the space inside the

1035
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: circle here, inside this magic circle, is a place where

1036
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: where we give quote ourselves permission to explore to fail

1037
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: to lose. And I think that's also key. And that

1038
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: also is that can be challenging to teach to a

1039
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: young game player. You know, it's even at ten, I

1040
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: have to remind him sometimes, you know. It's it's it's

1041
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: not necessarily about winning. It's okay if you're not if

1042
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: certainly if you're not great at the game right off

1043
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: the bat, it's not it's not that it's not bad

1044
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: to lose necessarily. It's about being within this system, you know.

1045
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: It's it's being in a like a safe space to

1046
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 1: try new things, to succeed, but also to to fail

1047
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: to lose. Uh. That's I mean, that's the great thing

1048
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: about your battles taking place um on a on on

1049
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: a on a chessboard, for example. It's like it's it's

1050
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: okay to lose on the chessboard unless you've created some

1051
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 1: artificial steaks such as through you know, competition or tournaments

1052
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 1: or gambling. Yeah, it's a place where ultimately it doesn't matter.

1053
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: And if we're like, I mean, this is subjective as well,

1054
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: but if we're approaching the game with the right mindset,

1055
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: then like, this is indeed a neutral space. This is

1056
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: a magic circle in which we can we can bring

1057
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 1: things from the outside, but we don't have to We

1058
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: don't have to bring that intensity, that seriousness, and that

1059
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,959
Speaker 1: life or death struggle. That's true, but it also makes

1060
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: me think about you know, again going back to the

1061
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,640
Speaker 1: ways that different personalities and different people um have very

1062
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: different ideas of fun. I mean, I wonder if to

1063
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 1: some extent, part of what makes children able to engage

1064
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: so intensely with games and and get so involved in

1065
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 1: them is exactly the fact that they are able to

1066
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 1: maintain an illusion that the stakes of the game are

1067
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 1: higher than they are. You know, that they can play

1068
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 1: the game as if they had a thousand dollars riding

1069
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: on the outcome of it, when actually nothing at all

1070
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: rides on the outcome of it, I mean, nothing tangible,

1071
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: but they might react as if it did, and thus,

1072
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: like winning becomes absolutely necessary. And that's like, to some extent,

1073
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 1: part of the magic of what makes the game so

1074
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: compelling to the child. Yeah, there's I guess there's also

1075
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: there has to be some sort of awareness of that

1076
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 1: magic circle, because I know in just conversations with my

1077
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: my own son, um. And it's not like we have

1078
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: to talk about this every game, so it's or anything.

1079
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: But occasionally you don't have to remind us like and

1080
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: I don't don't worry if you don't you don't win,

1081
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: or you don't you're not getting everything at first. Um.

1082
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: But then sometimes he'll he'll chime in then and he'll

1083
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: be like, I don't care if I win, um, And

1084
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: we have to sort of be like, well, no, you don't.

1085
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: Don't have to be like that either. Like it's a

1086
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: careful balance. It's not it's not that you don't care

1087
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: that you win or lose, like you still can desire

1088
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 1: to win, but you're sort of open to the experience

1089
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: of failing. It's almost like it's almost like an appreciation

1090
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 1: of of of heroic story or a tragic story and

1091
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 1: a narrative. And when you're playing that game, you have

1092
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 1: to realize, well, my my people in the settlers of Katan,

1093
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 1: this may well be a tragedy. They only have the

1094
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:01,680
Speaker 1: one sheep there. They're not really going to don't really

1095
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: stand a chance against these these these epic economies that

1096
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: are blooming all around them. Perhaps this is a tragic

1097
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: tale as being being told. But within the space of

1098
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: the game, that's okay. You know, thinking about the idea

1099
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: of being willing to step into the magic circle to

1100
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: sort of suspend your disbelief for the game, to play

1101
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: the game as if the outcome matters when it doesn't

1102
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: in any tangible way. You know, I think that has

1103
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: a lot in common with a broader personality trait that,

1104
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: in fact, we would describe as being a person who's game.

1105
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 1: You know, the person who is game for things like

1106
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: that is a person who, in a in a more

1107
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 1: general sense, is willing to step across the step across

1108
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: the line with you to go along with something. Yeah,

1109
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: I think that's a good comparison. Yeah, the the idea

1110
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: that that that you're agreeing with this person here. Yeah,

1111
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 1: we're about to step into the magic circle. Things are

1112
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: going to be all right, The same rules are not

1113
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: going to apply to this activity. And to just be

1114
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: willing to try something out, even if you don't know

1115
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: that it will be something you like or something that's fruitful,

1116
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna go ahead and call it an

1117
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: episode there, but we'll be back with another episode on fun. Obviously,

1118
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,959
Speaker 1: everyone out there likes to have fun, though You're gonna

1119
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 1: have different ideas about what fun is and what it means,

1120
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons we'd love to hear

1121
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 1: from you. So right in with your thoughts on fun

1122
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 1: as it relates to stuff we've discussed in this episode

1123
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: and join us for the next one. Core episodes of

1124
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind publish every Tuesday and Thursday

1125
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 1: in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind Podcast feed Monday's

1126
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: are for listener mail, Wednesdays are for a short form

1127
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: artifact or monster Factor, and on Friday's, well, that's when

1128
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,200
Speaker 1: we have fun. That's when we that's when we do

1129
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 1: weird how Cinema, where we set aside most serious concerns

1130
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 1: and just talk about a strange film until our daddy

1131
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 1: takes the tea bird away. That's right. Huge, thanks as

1132
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If

1133
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 1: you would like to get in touch with us with

1134
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest topic

1135
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

1136
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,479
Speaker 1: email us at contact at Stuff to Blow Your Mind

1137
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of

1138
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio,

1139
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 1: this is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1140
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.