1
00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:02,920
Speaker 1: When a woman gets attacked online, it's a woman, it's

2
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,880
Speaker 1: your children, it's her mother, it's her sisters. Like that

3
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:14,840
Speaker 1: will shut us down. There are no girls on the Internet.

4
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,360
Speaker 1: As a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative,

5
00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:23,799
Speaker 1: I'm bridget Todd and this is there are no girls

6
00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 1: on the Internet. With historic numbers of women running for

7
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: state white office, also comes a sobering reality that those

8
00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,280
Speaker 1: same women are more likely to be targeted online. For it.

9
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 1: It's not just women running for office. We've seen educators,

10
00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,280
Speaker 1: election workers, and their families being targeted. Now this doesn't

11
00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 1: just harm the women being harassed and attacked, It's also

12
00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,200
Speaker 1: meant to keep us from being able to fully participate

13
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,720
Speaker 1: in civic life. It's an attack on our democracy and

14
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 1: it's dangerous. I'm Shanna Delabu and I am the CEO

15
00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,920
Speaker 1: of Bright Lines. Shanna is used to dangerous work. She

16
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,760
Speaker 1: learned about how the internet works and used what she

17
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,840
Speaker 1: learned to train law enforcement officials on how to target

18
00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,720
Speaker 1: and combat violent drug cartels. So I worked on Mexico

19
00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:14,959
Speaker 1: and like the drug cartels, and this was like two

20
00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,000
Speaker 1: thousand and ten, twousand eleven. They were doing a fair

21
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,920
Speaker 1: amount of killing journalists citizen journalists, and so yeah, I

22
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 1: was really deep into that side of the work. So

23
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: it was really fulfilling. Shanna became an expert on p

24
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 1: i I personal identifying information and eventually started working to

25
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,120
Speaker 1: support journalists, activists, and civil society in places like the

26
00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,800
Speaker 1: former Soviet Union to try to maintain a sense of

27
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 1: democracy amidst a crumbling empire. And then in the United States,

28
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,280
Speaker 1: Trump was elected and her work became that much more

29
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,080
Speaker 1: relevant and in demand at home. And Trump got elected

30
00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,000
Speaker 1: and people in America finally wanted my services, and then

31
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:03,280
Speaker 1: around more and more people were concerned about their information online.

32
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 1: So the stuff that I've been training law enforcement on

33
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 1: ten years prior started to become really important to people

34
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,160
Speaker 1: here understanding that they had a lot of p I

35
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,520
Speaker 1: I out there on all of these data broker sites

36
00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,679
Speaker 1: and people's search sites, not facial recognition sites, and how

37
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,960
Speaker 1: could they get that down so that people couldn't do

38
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,239
Speaker 1: them harm? And so in twenty one we got a

39
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,200
Speaker 1: little bit of seed funding and I started bright Lines

40
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,000
Speaker 1: in August of last year. Something that I read about

41
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,560
Speaker 1: your work is that it's I guess I'm at youth

42
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 1: the phrase like trauma informed, like you have, you you

43
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,840
Speaker 1: kind of bring that lens to the work that you do,

44
00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 1: which I feel like so often when I have conversations

45
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,120
Speaker 1: about technology and the Internet and how to stay safe,

46
00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 1: the word trauma never even enters the conversation. And yet

47
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,560
Speaker 1: trauma is really like a I think oftentimes a part

48
00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,960
Speaker 1: of that experience. Absolutely, it is a magnifier. Its scales trauma,

49
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,080
Speaker 1: just like it's scale than anything else, the way that

50
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,040
Speaker 1: it's built to be so exclusive to a certain kind

51
00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,640
Speaker 1: of experience, to exclude that the lived experiences of the

52
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 1: people who are using it. It's just like this thing

53
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,840
Speaker 1: on its own can create trauma, can magnify trauma. And

54
00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,359
Speaker 1: then if you're going through something traumatic because of the Internet,

55
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,239
Speaker 1: it ignites a trauma response and the human being that

56
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,160
Speaker 1: can't you can't do anything about it, right, You can't

57
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,480
Speaker 1: go to help. There's no help, right. And and it's

58
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,960
Speaker 1: so approximate because like your phone is under your pillow

59
00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,160
Speaker 1: at night, is mine under my pillow at night because

60
00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,240
Speaker 1: I fell asleep listening to my podcast, I don't wake

61
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,920
Speaker 1: up my family, so like it's right here in my ear,

62
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 1: and to wake up and see like a flood of

63
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,360
Speaker 1: messages of people who are angry with me. Is triggering

64
00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 1: and like not triggering in the sense of like it's

65
00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,080
Speaker 1: a trigger warning, it might bring back memories and triggering

66
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,800
Speaker 1: of an autonomic response. Yeah, I had a trauma experience

67
00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 1: when I was living in so I spent a summer

68
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,600
Speaker 1: in Mexico. I was attacked when I was there, was

69
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,360
Speaker 1: stabbed by a man just in like a random like

70
00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,760
Speaker 1: and he wasn't even trying to rob me a situation. Um.

71
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 1: And when I came home, I had a lot of

72
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,359
Speaker 1: night terrors, was diagnosed with PTSD. It took me a

73
00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,799
Speaker 1: few years to finally sleep through the night and feel

74
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,960
Speaker 1: comfortable in my own skin. And I brought that experience,

75
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,840
Speaker 1: could see it and everybody that we worked with overseas

76
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,360
Speaker 1: UM and I can see it in the movement work

77
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 1: that we do now. And I can see it with

78
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 1: the people who come to us for support because they're

79
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,200
Speaker 1: afraid of being docks or they bend docks. It is everywhere,

80
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 1: the trauma and like, how do you how do we

81
00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,560
Speaker 1: how do we keep like lining these rich white dudes

82
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,400
Speaker 1: pockets for technology that's like causing so many of us

83
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: actual harm. So fun, I mean, I I it's it's

84
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,120
Speaker 1: the reality of the work. And I think that you're

85
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,720
Speaker 1: so right that we keep allowing the rich white dudes

86
00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 1: to create and get rich off of technology that causes

87
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,320
Speaker 1: harm while not even like not even they don't even

88
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,039
Speaker 1: have to reckon with that, that they can just sort

89
00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,159
Speaker 1: of pretend like like what harm, what trauma. It's like

90
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,920
Speaker 1: the way that we've allowed wealthy tech folks who are

91
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,599
Speaker 1: mostly white men to get rich off of our harm

92
00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,800
Speaker 1: and turn our lives into like a marketplace for negative,

93
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,080
Speaker 1: harmful experiences. It infuriates me to no end. My friends

94
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 1: or Raya Shinali always says, these guys named Jack on

95
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,159
Speaker 1: the board of Twitter, they're making money every time someone

96
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,720
Speaker 1: close after me, because like there are more men named

97
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,760
Speaker 1: Jack than women on the board, and every time someone

98
00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,599
Speaker 1: tweets bullshit at me, they make money. And I don't

99
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 1: think we say that enough. I don't think that we

100
00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,000
Speaker 1: hit on that enough. There's zero accountability around them, right,

101
00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,919
Speaker 1: we know they don't let their own children use these tools,

102
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:06,680
Speaker 1: but love it when ours do. Have you zero conscience? Great? Great? Yeah,

103
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,440
Speaker 1: more impactful than any nation state. You know. Now you

104
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,839
Speaker 1: have more breadth and more money than any of us.

105
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,480
Speaker 1: So it's awesome. It's awesome times. There was once a

106
00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,479
Speaker 1: time where I thought digital security kind of began and

107
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 1: ended with protecting my credit card information or my social

108
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,720
Speaker 1: Security number from scammers. But today the real threat is

109
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,160
Speaker 1: so much more than that. So for folks listening, can

110
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 1: you give us a definition of doxing? Yeah? Yeah, I

111
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,720
Speaker 1: think the really sort of bare bones definition is anything

112
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 1: that is private being published publicly in some way. So

113
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,919
Speaker 1: a lot of times docks sing means your private documents,

114
00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 1: Like that's where the docks comes from. UM in the beginning,

115
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,280
Speaker 1: I think folks consider that to be just like social

116
00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,719
Speaker 1: security numbers or credit card and m rs. We spoke

117
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 1: with a legal team that was working with an abortion

118
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:11,119
Speaker 1: provider last week who is she has UM. She works

119
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 1: with the public university in the Midwest, and so they

120
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 1: were concerned about the public records requests they were getting

121
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,000
Speaker 1: and saying, okay, so we have to fulfill these requests.

122
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,640
Speaker 1: What if her information might be p i I personally

123
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,200
Speaker 1: identifiable information that could be docked? Right, They were thinking

124
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,200
Speaker 1: about like that, like credit card numbers, social security numbers,

125
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,440
Speaker 1: and so we briefed them on just the amount of

126
00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:46,640
Speaker 1: data we would call p i I. So again, personally

127
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:52,640
Speaker 1: identifiable information that could lead to a dox um. I'd

128
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,960
Speaker 1: say the biggest threat of doxing is someone showing up

129
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 1: at your home. The next threats are people making like

130
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,200
Speaker 1: threatening phone calls, are sending threatening texts. We had a

131
00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 1: client who was receiving photo texts of guns, guns laid

132
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 1: down on the bed with the accompanying message that I'm

133
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,400
Speaker 1: coming for you. Sometimes it's messages to their loved ones,

134
00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,960
Speaker 1: particularly if they're women, women of color, other intersectional identities.

135
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,239
Speaker 1: That threat gets spread out, so the docs will happen

136
00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:28,120
Speaker 1: to their children, to their loved ones, their partner, their parents,

137
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,560
Speaker 1: right their mother's it's usually it's usually other female presenting

138
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,880
Speaker 1: people um and so those numbers might get shared, or

139
00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 1: those email addresses might get shared, or those home addresses.

140
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:41,960
Speaker 1: We spoke to a client today who was like, I

141
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,600
Speaker 1: don't own my home, but I helped my mother buy

142
00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,240
Speaker 1: their her home, and I'm worried about that part. I

143
00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 1: don't want anyone going after my mom. That's pretty common, right,

144
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,280
Speaker 1: So when someone gets kind of chewed up by this

145
00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:00,280
Speaker 1: outrage machine, they're looking for any way to find a

146
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,920
Speaker 1: way to them in their personal life. So as we

147
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,120
Speaker 1: were explaining to these lawyers, like you need to think

148
00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,000
Speaker 1: about is that person's cell phone number in their signature

149
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 1: block on the emails that they're asking for. Is their

150
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,520
Speaker 1: personal email address? In there are their photos of their

151
00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,880
Speaker 1: newborn child that they might have shared with their colleagues

152
00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,200
Speaker 1: at work. Is the name of the child out there,

153
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,840
Speaker 1: because especially with abortion providers UM child Protective Services will

154
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,040
Speaker 1: get called on them and they can't do that if

155
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,560
Speaker 1: they don't know the name of the kid. So in

156
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,080
Speaker 1: that case, they're looking for a way to get to you.

157
00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,880
Speaker 1: And doxing would just mean publishing that someplace. Docksmen is

158
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,280
Speaker 1: a really popular place for that. There are other doxing

159
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,760
Speaker 1: only websites and sometimes folks do that on Twitter. Sometimes

160
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 1: they do them their own websites. Sometimes they you know,

161
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,520
Speaker 1: do it on Telegram or Kiwi Farms or a chan

162
00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 1: or you know the kind of cow places. Yeah, such

163
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,200
Speaker 1: a cesspool of crap. You call it the alternate more

164
00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,880
Speaker 1: being nice, but I just generally call it like the cesspool. Yeah, yeah,

165
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,720
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty sad. And I think something that I

166
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,480
Speaker 1: so in doing the podcast, I think I had a

167
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,200
Speaker 1: little bit of a shift and how I understand doc

168
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,400
Speaker 1: saying and the kinds of attacks and harassment that particularly

169
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,000
Speaker 1: marginalized people can face. I always thought that it was like,

170
00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, who, who am I like, no one's ever

171
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,520
Speaker 1: gonna want to come after me. I'm not really like,

172
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,760
Speaker 1: like who who would want to who would spend their

173
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,760
Speaker 1: time finding this information? And something that people say again

174
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,319
Speaker 1: it again, it's like you never know what's going to

175
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,040
Speaker 1: be the thing that gets you on the wrong side

176
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,880
Speaker 1: of the wrong like gets you on that bad side

177
00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 1: of the wrong side of the internet. You really never know,

178
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,920
Speaker 1: and so be proactive to protect yourself. You never know

179
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 1: when it's going to be your turn in the barrel.

180
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 1: That's what we always say. The outrage machine loves to

181
00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,480
Speaker 1: pick off an individual. It's like so hungry it needs

182
00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,520
Speaker 1: to be fed, and like individual people get thrown in

183
00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,000
Speaker 1: there and sometimes for nothing. Do you know, like did

184
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,559
Speaker 1: you see that this? Maybe not this? The Warby Parker

185
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,720
Speaker 1: customer service was fielding a bunch of threatening um calls

186
00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:17,559
Speaker 1: and threats to docks because because Barby Parker wasn't advertising

187
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,320
Speaker 1: I think on Dan Bongino's website anymore. The women being

188
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,160
Speaker 1: targeted are not usually big, flashy public figures or well

189
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,480
Speaker 1: moneyed or well connected They're just regular people who wanted

190
00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 1: to serve the public. Back in. Educator Cecilia Lewis didn't

191
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,679
Speaker 1: even know what critical race theory was, let alone had

192
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,160
Speaker 1: she been hired to teach it to school children in

193
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,880
Speaker 1: the Cherokee County School District in Georgia, where she had

194
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,680
Speaker 1: just been hired as a school administrator. But that didn't

195
00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,800
Speaker 1: stop groups from organizing online to run her out of

196
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,480
Speaker 1: town and run her out of the next town where

197
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,040
Speaker 1: she was hired to teach. This teacher, Oh my gosh,

198
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,480
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this pro public article. This teacher

199
00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,640
Speaker 1: Cecilia Lewis, she was an educator. I heard the story

200
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,800
Speaker 1: I have went down to work in Georgia. The people

201
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,319
Speaker 1: assumed she was there to teach critical race theory. They

202
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,520
Speaker 1: asked to see, oh, Louis, what's c r T is?

203
00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,920
Speaker 1: She's like culturally something, some sh she was not her gender,

204
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,000
Speaker 1: and then they followed her to her next job in Georgia.

205
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,840
Speaker 1: It's just like, why you know that you're just looking

206
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 1: for a scapeboat all the time. Um, you know, so

207
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,800
Speaker 1: you never know if it's because you helped to update

208
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,920
Speaker 1: a Wikipedia article that someone is going to be angry

209
00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,800
Speaker 1: with you or you tweet something that gets taken out

210
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:39,080
Speaker 1: of context, or you know you're an election official. Yeah,

211
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 1: your mom a mint. Yeah, Oh my god. Shay and

212
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,600
Speaker 1: Ruby Freeman their testimony, I mean, this is such a tangent,

213
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,200
Speaker 1: but their testimony and the January six commission broke my heart,

214
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,559
Speaker 1: like people showing up at her at her grandmother's house,

215
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,720
Speaker 1: Like it was heartbreaking. Anybody who's who has an ounce

216
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:03,400
Speaker 1: of empathy could feel that they did nothing wrong. They

217
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,679
Speaker 1: were doing a job and not exactly like a glamorous

218
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,320
Speaker 1: or high paid or like well well compensated around the

219
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 1: all around, or even like well appreciated job. They're doing

220
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,720
Speaker 1: a pretty tough and thankless and hot job and probably

221
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,720
Speaker 1: not getting paid very much for it. And that's the

222
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,760
Speaker 1: things they got. Yeah, I mean, And in that testimony

223
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,800
Speaker 1: they talk about how you know, they weren't drawn to

224
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,120
Speaker 1: community service, like helping their community, and I think that

225
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,720
Speaker 1: something is really broken and wrong when the cost of

226
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,559
Speaker 1: serving your community is being the target of these kinds

227
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 1: of dangerous attacks to your teacher. You're a teacher because

228
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,560
Speaker 1: you love children, because you believe that like the next

229
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,079
Speaker 1: generation needs all of love and Karen, like just support

230
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 1: that they can get and then someone accuses you of

231
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,800
Speaker 1: being a groomer, and that's the end of your life

232
00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,880
Speaker 1: as you know it. Like what the hell is wrong

233
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,400
Speaker 1: of people? Like if you've got some kind of grievance

234
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,400
Speaker 1: about what's happening for you, that's like yours, right, but

235
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 1: it's like you you can go and project it on

236
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,480
Speaker 1: other people all you want. But in an age where

237
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,079
Speaker 1: political tensions are clearly very high, we have more guns,

238
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 1: and we have people in this country, and we have

239
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,920
Speaker 1: all this p I I available. Like I said, I

240
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 1: started working on this ten years ago. The amount of

241
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 1: data now versus then, it's exponentially more that's out there.

242
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,480
Speaker 1: You can find anything on anybody that's not that's we've

243
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,400
Speaker 1: I think we've gone a little bit too far swinging

244
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:43,240
Speaker 1: in that direction. Oh yes, let's take a quick break

245
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,760
Speaker 1: at our back. We already know that women, especially black

246
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 1: women in and women of color, have long been targeted, harassed,

247
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 1: and attacked, but Shauna says it wasn't until the issue

248
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,960
Speaker 1: started impacting powerful white men and their families that legislators

249
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,280
Speaker 1: and tech companies really started paying any attention at all.

250
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 1: In addition to poll workers like Shaye and Ruby Freeman,

251
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 1: who are black women being harassed and threatened after Trump

252
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,440
Speaker 1: baselessly claimed that they had helped rig the election against him.

253
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,600
Speaker 1: In Georgia, Tricia Rathnsburger, the wife of Georgia's Secretary of

254
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 1: State Brad Raethinsburger, started getting threatening text messages and the

255
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,720
Speaker 1: militia group the Oathkeepers, showed up outside of her home.

256
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 1: Her daughter in law's home was broken into, and what

257
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,840
Speaker 1: Tricia says was an attempt to intimidate her and her family.

258
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,080
Speaker 1: So many things to say. First of all, we don't

259
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,080
Speaker 1: have these tools because up until a year or two ago,

260
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 1: this only happened to women and women of color and

261
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,520
Speaker 1: people of color and people who were not white men.

262
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,400
Speaker 1: It only started happening to white men, I'd say, in

263
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 1: with Brad Raeffinsburg, and even then it was his wife

264
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 1: that was getting all the hate, right, Like, it didn't

265
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 1: happen to people who mattered to people, right, And by people,

266
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,760
Speaker 1: I mean legislators and tech companies. Those are then they're

267
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,960
Speaker 1: run by the same group of people, so zero empathy, right,

268
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 1: We're not people to them. Fine, so this was happening

269
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:26,280
Speaker 1: to just us, great, so not a real concern. The

270
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,680
Speaker 1: police would tell folks all the time, like, oh, just

271
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 1: get the Internet, as though that were possible, because again

272
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 1: fundamentally don't understand. It's not happening to me. I don't

273
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 1: have to worry about it. Then you have all of

274
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 1: these legislators who refused to understand how technology works, and

275
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,200
Speaker 1: because of Citizens United, have been running their campaigns on

276
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 1: tech donations, and how can they possibly regulate them without

277
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 1: without having to do something, you know, like to piss

278
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:04,160
Speaker 1: off their money bags. They're like Daddy Warbucks, right dot com?

279
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 1: So like, now now there's more political will for it,

280
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,000
Speaker 1: because again we're starting to see the political islands amp

281
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,679
Speaker 1: of because there's so much data out there. But I

282
00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,120
Speaker 1: would argue bridget and I don't see this anywhere else.

283
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 1: And I don't understand why all of these pieces of

284
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: legislation that are getting proposed now carve out states selling

285
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,720
Speaker 1: data to data brokers. To start with, it is state agencies,

286
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,800
Speaker 1: whether they're d m vs, that's pretty well documented, um,

287
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 1: if their utilities, if their law enforcement databases that are

288
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 1: getting sold to data brokers who are then selling them

289
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 1: back to us. If it's like ICE or some other

290
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 1: federal agency, but they're also selling them to data brokers,

291
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 1: just to make sure I understand. So, state agencies, the

292
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 1: d m V, my utilities company, my pepco, whatever, there

293
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 1: might be the ones who are selling this data and

294
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 1: making money off of it that is putting people at risk.

295
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,159
Speaker 1: They are the ones that are doing it. Okay, So

296
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,760
Speaker 1: if you can't tell what Shana just said that it's

297
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 1: actually our public services and state agencies, the places that

298
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 1: we all have to deal with. We want the heat

299
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: or the power or the water turned on in our

300
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 1: apartments or just registered to vote, are also the same

301
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 1: places selling our sensitive data. Floored me. I just had

302
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,920
Speaker 1: no idea that that's one way that our information is

303
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,240
Speaker 1: being put out there. This is shocking information to me.

304
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,600
Speaker 1: You're probably like, oh yeah, buckle up gets worse. But

305
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,200
Speaker 1: I think that would be shocking information to most people. Right.

306
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,679
Speaker 1: You would never know it until you went to FOYA

307
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,280
Speaker 1: and I read. So the Center on Privacy and Technology

308
00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,199
Speaker 1: at Georgetown did this two year um research projects. They

309
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,320
Speaker 1: published it earlier this year called the American Dragnet, and

310
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 1: their list of sources is just like the FOY at

311
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 1: all of these agencies across I think it's twenty states,

312
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:10,639
Speaker 1: something like Remarkable that sold their law enforcement databases two ice.

313
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:16,119
Speaker 1: That was their specific focus. I'd say, in addition to utilities,

314
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 1: we know the courts sell court records, and those usually

315
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 1: like so you imagine that you get a parking ticket.

316
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 1: Because I lived in DC and I can never remember

317
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: which side of the street is street cleaning this week,

318
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: I get a parking ticket, and then there's a traffic

319
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 1: court date if I want to go. I don't even

320
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,120
Speaker 1: think about it. A ticket, it's like done. But there's

321
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,120
Speaker 1: a record right that has my name, my home address,

322
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,399
Speaker 1: the then number of my car, probably my date of birth,

323
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,399
Speaker 1: the information from my driver's license, plus my car, and

324
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 1: so that's a court record that would get sold. So

325
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,399
Speaker 1: then what happened? Someone wants to follow Like the thing

326
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 1: that terrifies me the most with these election officials. What

327
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,120
Speaker 1: they were describing was that people would wait for them

328
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,680
Speaker 1: in the parking to leave, They would follow them, take

329
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 1: pictures of their license plates. They don't have to follow

330
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 1: them home. They could then just go online, pay twenty

331
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 1: bucks and find out that person's home address, telephone number, whatever,

332
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 1: because they had the license plate of that person. That's

333
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the idea that we've Yeah, I mean

334
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,440
Speaker 1: I did that we've we've I guess there's an expectation

335
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: that governed that you're you know, state and local agencies

336
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 1: like that would be invested in keeping you safe. But

337
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,880
Speaker 1: I guess that's just not the case, not at all.

338
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 1: I don't think that they even think about that. I

339
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 1: think they feel what's killing me is that we pay taxes.

340
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,840
Speaker 1: So like before data brokers approached any of these agencies

341
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,360
Speaker 1: and said, hey, can you sell me your assessor database

342
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 1: so I know who lives where and I can put

343
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,840
Speaker 1: it on block shopper because I'm I'd love to add that,

344
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,640
Speaker 1: inform me whatever. Like before that happened, these agencies ran

345
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,760
Speaker 1: just fine on our tax dollars. If the issues there

346
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 1: have budget shortfalls because we don't pay enough in taxes, like, well,

347
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 1: we're still paying for it, you know what I mean.

348
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: Like in most cases, what is heartbreaking the ironic is

349
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 1: that they're not even charging the value of it, like

350
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 1: twenty dollars. Well, what I mean, DC says, it's entire

351
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 1: voter file for two bucks that includes Supreme Court justices,

352
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 1: Like she's not really big people living this still, and

353
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: so I see laws like God bless her esther salis

354
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: of federal judge in New Jersey whose son was murdered

355
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 1: in an attack on her home that the guy was

356
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,919
Speaker 1: looking for her killed her son, shout her husband. My

357
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 1: family has experienced a paying that no one should ever

358
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 1: have to endure, and I am here asking everyone to

359
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 1: help me ensure that no one ever has to experience

360
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: this kind of pain. Judge to her, Salas's story is

361
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 1: as tragic as it is terrifying. In July, an assailant

362
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 1: came to Judge Salis's home and her twenty year old

363
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 1: son answered the door. Her son was shot and killed.

364
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 1: Her husband was also shot, but he survived. The primary

365
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: suspect was roy Den Hollander, a self proclaimed quote anti

366
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: feminist lawyer known for things like bringing unsuccessful lawsuits against

367
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: nightclubs for having ladies nights and colleges for teaching women

368
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: studies courses. He had previously gone before Judge Solace and

369
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: in a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the male only

370
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: military draft. Hollander died by suicide after being named a

371
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: suspect in the attack, and after his death it was

372
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: revealed that he was also planning an attack on Supreme

373
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor. In response, Judge Salace champions Daniel's Law,

374
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: legislation specifically designed to protect personal information about active and

375
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: retired judges, law enforcement officials, prosecute earth, and their immediate

376
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: family members from being made public. She drafted Daniel's Law

377
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 1: that was passed in New Jersey. They brought it to

378
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: the federal you know, to the to the federal level,

379
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 1: and um it just it carved out two things. First

380
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 1: of all, it carved out allowing their addresses, so they

381
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: had to be flagged on a database if they were

382
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: a federal judge or some other kind of judicial person,

383
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 1: but never was it that they had to hied that information.

384
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: So like if DC flagged the federal judge, or in

385
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: this case of New Jersey, if if Esther Salace herself

386
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: was flagged, she would never show up on a public

387
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: like on a database, on a on a website, you

388
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: could never search for her name and find her, search

389
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 1: her address and find her. But what they don't seem

390
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: to understand is that New Jersey would just sell the

391
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 1: full database and while she was flagged to not show

392
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: up on their public facing website, there's no protection of

393
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: her if the whole filed gets sold. So they don't

394
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: seem to get that right. And even with this a

395
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: d p P A like the American Data Privacy Protection Act,

396
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: I think I don't remember entirely what it stands for.

397
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: But they carve out state agencies. They're not considered. They

398
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: don't even consider them when it comes to who's selling

399
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: the data to data brokers, let alone consider like what

400
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 1: a data broker is and how they would self identify.

401
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever seen these tech companies

402
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: when they get squirrely asked like are you a media company?

403
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: Are you a tech company? That? And they will not

404
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: say because they don't have to because and they'd be

405
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: regulated like what they are, and they just won't do it.

406
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: These data brokers aren't going to Tons and Reuters is

407
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: a journalism company that also has Data of mind for

408
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: twenty five years as like a dorm address for me

409
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I'm like, I didn't even have utilities,

410
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: they don't sell phone, how do you have this address?

411
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, I like to call it commodification without consent

412
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: because they just keep selling it. And I think I

413
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: was saying this. California sells its entire d m V

414
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: database for like thirty million dollars, like they grossly undervalue

415
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: their own act. It's like, how it's so fucked up,

416
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: so fucked you know we're gonna just like sell us out.

417
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: Could you at least make enough mind? Yeah, like make

418
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: enough money that like, oh, you'll pick the roads. It's

419
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: like what, like why why do I sell potholes if

420
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: you're like you know you're gonna pull that ship, and

421
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 1: then I still have to live with like your bullshit roads. Exactly.

422
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: I can die and try continually, so you tell me

423
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: if that's enough, or you have follow up questions there.

424
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: It's just so frustrating for them. They just don't get it,

425
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: or if I don't, I can't see how they understand.

426
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: And by day I mean legislators that like maybe a

427
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: child Protective Services database doesn't need to be sold to

428
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: spoke you, doesn't need to be sold to Thompson readers.

429
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: Maybe that's something that could be protected because it fucking

430
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: matters that it's protected, Like who needs to see that? No, nobody,

431
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: nobody needs to know. And I think it just speaks

432
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: to this idea of like do we want to live

433
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: in a world where everything, even our most sensitive information

434
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: about ourselves our children is for sale, has a price,

435
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: I would argue no, I would argue some things shouldn't

436
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: be for sale, particularly by my state and local uh government,

437
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: not without my consent. People still shoot with the bathroom

438
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: door closed until that changes, I would argue that, no,

439
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: they you get to make that decision for themselves, and

440
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 1: this is not that we don't get to decide. You

441
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: have to have an ID to get on an airplane,

442
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: to drive a car, you have to have an idea

443
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,479
Speaker 1: to get into a bar, like you have to have

444
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: identifications CONU no option there, So that they're selling in

445
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: our I D information because some private company is fucking

446
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: mind blowing thinking, how are you supposed to have heat?

447
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: You can just freeze because you can't. You don't want

448
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: your information to be sold to some conglomerate, which, by

449
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: the way, that conglomerate gave Equifax, gives Equifax all their

450
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: data to sell them straight because in the nineties they

451
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 1: didn't understand the ramifications of the amount of data they

452
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: were collecting and of those five utilities or so um,

453
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: you know, millions tens of millions of Americans data these

454
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: Equifax was charged with building the database to put it

455
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: all together. And in exchange it got the soul rights

456
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: to sell it to third parties. The nine needs. No

457
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: one probably thought anything of it because they were dumb.

458
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: We did, we didn't know who knew. Apparently these guys

459
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: at Tago Facts are like this sucking money. Look all

460
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: this data is going to mean something someday, so evil,

461
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: so evil. I'm happy that we are starting to get

462
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: services and tools that are better than just like, oh

463
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: do this to that, like piecemeal solution. What kind of

464
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,239
Speaker 1: services does the bright Line offer for folks who are

465
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: running for office, who are activists, who you know might

466
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: be wanting to protect themselves online. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay,

467
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: so yes. So to my final to the last point,

468
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: I want to just say, the narrative, the consistent narrative

469
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: is that you did this to yourself, you operating on

470
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: the Internet and your social media in in being on

471
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: Facebook or posting this information. This is why your data

472
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: is out there. You did this to yourself. And that

473
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: is such a bald faced lie and absolute bullshit. And

474
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: it's the same story we hear from tech over and over.

475
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: It has nothing. We didn't do anything wrong. So first

476
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: and foremost, like if your p I I is out there.

477
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: It's nothing you did, more than likely unless you took

478
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: a photo of your driver's license, and most people don't

479
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: do the kind of ship so even then wouldn't have

480
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: been scraped by most of the databases, if not all

481
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: who have it. So don't believe that lie. First, what

482
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: do we do at bright lenes So I think when

483
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: you talk about delete me, there's another one called Canary.

484
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: There are other services like that Privacy Duck used to

485
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: exist that would helps scrape your information from data broker sites.

486
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: That is low hanging fruit. For the most part, those

487
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: sites will opt your information out at least for a while.

488
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: Uh they've been they do pop it back up right

489
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: and so you can go through and do that kind

490
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: of whack a mole with them across these hundreds of sites.

491
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: So you can pay someone to do it with the

492
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: body and some human interaction, and that's relatively inexpensive. It

493
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: is not easy, however, to get your information down at

494
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: the core, and that is what we do, like we

495
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: go to the root of the public record. What's really

496
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: difficult about the work we do is that it takes

497
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: so much follow up cajoling, like being a really nice

498
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: like white lady and you know, I see that you

499
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: love Jesus me too. Would you put abortion doctors ship

500
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: off your website? Literally conversation we had this week. Um,

501
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: blessings was her response. In any event, Like, there's a

502
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: lot of kind of following up there. We have no protections,

503
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: right like section to thirty well hated among privacy activists

504
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: is like this shield for the content that's on a

505
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: website that the website owner isn't responsible for the content

506
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: that gets placed there. So, like we were talking about

507
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: at the start of the hour, like no accountability, and

508
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: that is the upper you know, the modus operandi of

509
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: this industry. There's no accountability public records. Um. That is

510
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: where we're different than anyone else because we don't want

511
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: you to keep coming back. Um. Other services are designed

512
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: to keep having to knock your information down. That's that's

513
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: just not how we like to operate. So say a candidate,

514
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 1: an activist, a journalist, UM, a medical doctor, in some

515
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: cases a climate a climate scientists will come to us

516
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: and say, hey, I'm worried about these pieces. My mom

517
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: owns a home, I own this farm. Because that's the

518
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 1: thing that actually a handful of our clients farms like

519
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: I started a company, registered it in my name and

520
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: my home address, I'm registered to vote in this state.

521
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: That I'm worried about that, and um, they'll ask, you know,

522
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: what do I do? I've been getting some messages online

523
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: that bother me. Or I'm afraid that because my work

524
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: is in race equity, I will and I have a

525
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: little child at home, or I have several children at home,

526
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: or I'm Chinese American and that's our latest like hate flavor, right,

527
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: So what can I do? So we'll take a few

528
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: minutes with them to understand their concerns. Um, talk through

529
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: what has happened and what they're what's coming up for

530
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: them in their lives, and then the areas where and

531
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: by that I mean like are they going to speaking publicly,

532
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: are they publishing something, etcetera. And then talk with them

533
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: about you know, who's at home, who they want to protect,

534
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: what they want to protect. Sometimes it's an identity. Sometimes

535
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: it's an identity or a previous marriage that they don't

536
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: want folks to know about, or it's they have little

537
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: children or with their mom right or their grandma. And

538
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: so what we'll then do is take like a delete

539
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: me and start scrubbing the low hanging fruit that's on

540
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: the data broker sites and then use a handful of

541
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: frankly arcane legal mechanisms to try to compel a website

542
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: to remove their information and or an agency. So we'll

543
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,479
Speaker 1: often tell folks to put their home in a revocable trust,

544
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: which isn't an easy thing to do. To find an

545
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: estate lawyer who understands your privacy concerns, can help you

546
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: name your trust in a way that wouldn't immediately identify you, um.

547
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: And then to understand, like what that updated filing looks

548
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: like on a d C d C d C R

549
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: a's website right, or on Jefferson County or Marion County's website. Um,

550
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: would the website also have the addendum that's like this

551
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: was this and now it's this, Like is there a

552
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: transfer of sale? What does all of that look like?

553
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: So in some cases we asked them for revocable trust

554
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: for folks who can afford it, we talked to them

555
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: about using an LLC because that's more um, it's more coverage,

556
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: it's more protection. It's just harder with capital gains. Folks

557
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: lose out on the gains of their of their money

558
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: and and sometimes of their investments. Sometimes the mortgages mortgage

559
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: companies won't lend to an LLC, so there's more complexity

560
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: than it is necessary there. Um, the point is to

561
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: create a firewall between your name and your home address.

562
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: That's are like number one, always, always always, because with

563
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: our clients who have successfully put their homes and trusts,

564
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: we see the amount of data across the board nose

565
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: dive within a few months. It's expensive, it's a high

566
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: barrier to entry, and it sucks that that's the case.

567
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: We just should maybe not be selling that data point blank,

568
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: you know, like just don't. It doesn't need to be

569
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: online everywhere. Then we'll talk to folks about voter records

570
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: because those are often those voter files get sold to

571
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: lots of people and there is no like drm Like

572
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: if you sell it to a campaign, there's nothing stopping

573
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: that camp and a campaign can buy it right Like,

574
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: there's a lot of cases they are perfectly protected buyer

575
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: of a voter file. They need it, but there's nothing

576
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: stopping them from selling it down the line. Most are

577
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: scrupulous they wouldn't do that, but not everybody's like that,

578
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: And so then that there's one state Colorado that allows

579
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: someone to file as a register as a confidential voter.

580
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: In no other state does that exist. So there we

581
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: try to work with an address confidentiality program that's set

582
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: up for survivors of domestic violence and intimate partner rounds,

583
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: not for just like regular folks. Not all states have them.

584
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: Not all would be flexible enough to allow a person

585
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: who's just being taunted online or threatened with boxing um

586
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: to apply and to have their application improved. In some

587
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: states it's possible. And what that does is shield the

588
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: home address. People have an alternate address that would forward

589
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: the mail to their home if they wanted. It shields

590
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: their home address from the DMV, and it shields their

591
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: home address from a voter record. So you basically are

592
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: hiding from the government and it's really difficult and expensive. Ways. Yeah,

593
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's I'm so grateful that you're providing these

594
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: services to people, but I and I really admire the

595
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: tools that you all are building. But part of me

596
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: wishes that you didn't have to be, you know, doing

597
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: less like do you do you do? You see a

598
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: situation where that's ever the case, where we have the

599
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: kind of world where the kind of tools that you

600
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: offer folks just aren't necessary. I mean Europe under g

601
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: DPR m hm, they can do a round of like

602
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: a delete me and for the most part their information scrubbed.

603
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

604
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: G d p R, or General Data Protection Regulation, is

605
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: a regulation that came into effect in that aims to

606
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: enhance control and rights over individuals personal data across Europe.

607
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: We had a client there, they moved their principles moved

608
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: to the US with the client is a UK based company,

609
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: and they were like, what are you all doing? Why

610
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: do they have so much of your data? Why? Why

611
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: are your own agencies betraying you? And I was like, yeah, no,

612
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: you're right, Um no, I'd love it. I'd love it

613
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: if we had a federal piece of federal legislation in

614
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: place that protected us, if we had a whole suite

615
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: of tools, if we had recourse, if we had an

616
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: agency like the FTC that could actually have some teeth,

617
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: if we could file lawsuits. Do you know that meant

618
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: something like these fines? Even on my biggest complaint with

619
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: GDPR is the findes that these companies get. They're just

620
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: like cost of doing business. Like, what's thirty million, what's

621
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: three million? Not that much to them? Like, I don't

622
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: think I don't think the fine is the way that

623
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,479
Speaker 1: it works, you know, I think there needs to be um. Yeah,

624
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: the only way through this is for there to be

625
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: a consideration on state agencies selling data. And first we

626
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: have to admit we have a problem. Just you know,

627
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: step one, admitting to yourself another person this, this is

628
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: a big problem. Yeah. When people are having to go

629
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: to like go through so many hoops just to vote

630
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: and own property or rent a place or whatever, I

631
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: would say that's a problem. Yeah, there's no privacy in

632
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: American any longer. And who's benefiting a bunch of wealthy

633
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: white men run companies, big corporations. Why are we doing

634
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: this to ourselves? How many assassinations? When we have to

635
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 1: see before we start to put two and two together,

636
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: this man showing up at Primla Japauls like outside of

637
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: her home, terrifying, terrifying, we can find all of those folks.

638
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 1: That's not great. And so like when Representative Jopaul when

639
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: this happened to her, the sergeant in arms, you know,

640
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: in Congress, was like, oh, here's the money you can

641
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: spend to like lockdown your house. It's like, bro, like,

642
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: if they're already at your house, you've lost Like why

643
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: not stop them long before they get there. It's like, oh,

644
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: now you have mouth cancer. We can do this really

645
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: in big is some difficult thing and it might save you.

646
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: But if you just brush your teeth for the last

647
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: thirty years, you wouldn't be here, you know what I mean?

648
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: Like yeah, just like not Yeah, I would love it

649
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: if we didn't exist. Don't repeat that to any investor.

650
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: Love it if we didn't exist, and thanking that we'll

651
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: have to for a while. Yeah, I mean, I wonder

652
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: do you see you know, we've seen more and more

653
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 1: like women, LGBTQ folks, folks of color, you know, running

654
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: for office, which is awesome and like holding public office,

655
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: which is awesome. But the reality is that these same

656
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: folks are disproportionately targeted for this kind of harassment. And

657
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: so I'm wondering, like do you see this as a

658
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: gender and race issue? And like do you and do

659
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: you see it as like I don't know, I just

660
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: see it as a direct threat to our democracy, Like

661
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: we can't have a functional democracy. While this is the

662
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: thing that is happening, we don't anymore arguably, so I

663
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: this became my like will be in my bonnet In

664
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: seven from Iowa and a candidate who was against the

665
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: reprehensible Steve King ring with Kim Weaver dropped out of

666
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: a race in for a couple of reasons that didn't

667
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 1: really get reported all that well. One she came out

668
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: of her house one day and there was a for

669
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 1: sale sign in the front yard to the government agency

670
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: and state agencies she was working for had just had

671
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: their budget cut by the exact amount of her salary.

672
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: And she was like, well, I'm harming people in my

673
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: in my office who did nothing wrong, and they're coming

674
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: to my home. And then and she dropped out of

675
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: a race, and I was like, that's no. We no

676
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: longer live in a democracy if a person can't run

677
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: out of those fears and someone's going to physically harm

678
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: her or because we're women, like the way that we

679
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: for the most part, not to be completely like genderizing this,

680
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: but like for the most part, women take take a

681
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: very We take risks in a certain way, will risk

682
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 1: not for ourselves necessarily or personal gain, will take risks

683
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: for the people around us. The the inverse is true

684
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: as well. If the people around us are being harmed

685
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 1: by our behavior. We've been traded aimed throughout our years

686
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: of presenting as women that we need to stop whatever

687
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: we're doing. So that is why when a woman gets

688
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 1: attacked online, it's a woman, it's her children, it's her mother,

689
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 1: it's her sisters, like that will shut us down because

690
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: because that's our training, right, So you know, arguably we

691
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: don't live in duncracy anymore. I started this because I

692
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 1: thought the way that America would survive in some way,

693
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: shape or form, not necessarily as the democracy we see today,

694
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: because I don't think it's much of a real democracy.

695
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: It's founded on like a lot of privilege and on

696
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: the backs of enslaved people's It's like, I don't care

697
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: if that democracy continues. But what I love for our

698
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: country and like our our communities and our society like

699
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: globally to look like, would be one where we are

700
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: actually represented by the people in our communities right in

701
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: an equitable manner. That's not going to happen if we

702
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: have to keep electing Joe Biden to fight off Donald Trump.

703
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 1: Bless them, he's maybe you know, a really wonderful person,

704
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: but his lived experiences aren't Kamala Harris's. Do you know

705
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: it's not. He has no idea what she's been through

706
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: in her life. I would much rather see a leader

707
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: like that who has been had to learn a lot

708
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: about empathy and the experiences of other people and herself

709
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: having those inform the policy making. Only then are we

710
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: gonna start treating people like human beings. We wouldn't see R. V.

711
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: Wade being overturned if we had been able to elect

712
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: people who look like us, who had had our lived experiences.

713
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 1: It's a complete lack of empathy on the part of

714
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 1: those judges. It's such a cruelty. If you've ever known

715
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 1: or a lot yourself lost to pregnancy that you very

716
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 1: much wanted I have, Like that is so, it is

717
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: so cruel what they've done, And like we just wouldn't

718
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 1: be there as a nation treating people like non humans.

719
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: Wouldn't be a hundred or however many hundreds of police

720
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: officers standing outside of his school, well children were being murdered,

721
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: because we would see those children as human beings. And

722
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: I just don't I just don't think that our structures

723
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: allow for that at this point. I feel like I've

724
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: gotten really far afield from bright lines. No, this is

725
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's all It's all related, and

726
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 1: I think it makes me feel good that the thing

727
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: that animates you and motivates you in this work is

728
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: getting back to that humanity, because it does feel like

729
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: we've we've take it. We've we've come so far from that.

730
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: I feel in our national political conversations and the way

731
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: that we interact online, like it's so clear that humanity

732
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: we have just something like somehow gotten lost in the

733
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 1: mix completely. There's no seeing each other as human beings anymore.

734
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: It's like what can I do to satisfy my own

735
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: feelings of like need or outrage, my own selfishness? Right?

736
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: It just really it is not a high point for

737
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 1: the citizens of this country by and not even citizens,

738
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: that's not fair, but like the people who inhabit Turtle Island,

739
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: that inhabit this space, right, you know, like it's not

740
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: We're not It's not a high point in our existence

741
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: as a as a species by any means. And I

742
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: think that's been fueled by the way our technology has

743
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: been built. If you look at the beginnings of the

744
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: Internet and all the hopes for this utopian space and like,

745
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 1: how we could be so connected. I think about being

746
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: a kid who was just weird. I was just a

747
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: weird kid growing up in Iowa. I wasn't like other kids,

748
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: and I didn't know that other weirdos were out there

749
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: until I got to college, and then I had to

750
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: go abroad and I found other even and then I

751
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: came here to d C. And I was like, oh, yeah,

752
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: you're my weirdos. My nephew is sixteen. He's out as

753
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: by in Illinois, so like in a similarly very like

754
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: kind of small Midwestern place, and he knows he's not alone.

755
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: He know there are other people out there. He also

756
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: has to deal with a fair amount of ship that

757
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: I didn't have to as a kid who didn't have

758
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: social media and the internet so close, right, But at

759
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: least he knows that he's not alone. And I think

760
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: there was this promise of the Internet being a place

761
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: where you didn't have to where you would feel connected

762
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: to other people, and when you can increase your empathy

763
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: skills and you can understand the experiences of people who

764
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: weren't like you, and we have gone so far afield

765
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: from that. Now it's like this tool to divide whether

766
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 1: being manipulated by like Russian or even frankly, like I

767
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: worked on China, I understood that they also do this

768
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: work where they intentionally not necessarily be foreign countries but

769
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: sway influence public opinion online. Like we can be manipulated

770
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: outside of the country, we can also be perfectly manipulated

771
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 1: by our own people. If shinzo Abe can be assassinated

772
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: in in a country without guns, that's all you need

773
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: to know. They don't We don't need to train militias

774
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: anymong We don't need trade military forces. Frankly, like we

775
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: need to get inside of the head of one person.

776
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: All of us have become sleeper cells. That's terrifying. You

777
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: know what point do you make a bad decision because

778
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: of something you're sure you heard on like some Q

779
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: and on YouTube whatever craziness and like there's no you

780
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: fall down that rabbit hole and where do you from out?

781
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: It's true, it's true. And you know something that you

782
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: said that really sticks with me because it really resonates

783
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: with my own experiences. You know, I I live in

784
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: d C. As well, I grew up in Virginia, and um, yeah,

785
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: I was like the weird kid in a tiny town

786
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: in the South who I didn't know. I felt very

787
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: low and I felt very alien. I felt very strange.

788
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: And the day that my parents brought home a computer

789
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: and I first got on America online, remember that like

790
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: terrible noise, like a awful noise. That was the first

791
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 1: time that I was like, Oh, there's other people out

792
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: there like me, Like I'm not alone. And I know

793
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 1: that I would not like the path of self discovery

794
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: that that set me on. I am so grateful for

795
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: in my life, and I know that I wouldn't be

796
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: where I am now without it. And I feel like

797
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: the generation that comes before us, I wonder are they

798
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: having the same experiences that feel like self discovery, that

799
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: feel like creativity, that feel like safe exploration of who

800
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: they are? You know, are we leaving behind an internet

801
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: that is worse or better than the one that I

802
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:34,840
Speaker 1: grew up with that that was so impactful for me.

803
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 1: I would argue, it's not better, it's not better. It's

804
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: certainly not better. No, I don't think more is better.

805
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: I don't think more images are better. Sinse friends of

806
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: mine they have a my friend has a stepdaughter who

807
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 1: um is in college and bless her. She had to

808
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: graduate from high school and do a re freshman year,

809
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: both during like code quarantine, so she got robbed with

810
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 1: quite a little bit. She's a really adaptive young woman, bright,

811
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 1: beautiful young woman. She finally gets her like trip to

812
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: Italy over the summer and and creates an itinerary that's

813
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: where she can take all of her Instagram shots. That's

814
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: not how I planned my trip to Italy, And they're

815
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: like laughing, and it's not how we planned our trips

816
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: to Italy, Like, that's not how we did our like

817
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: summer in Europe or whatever privilege cool thing that we

818
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: got to do, right, Like it's I don't I don't

819
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: know that her experience was like that much better because

820
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 1: she got to go to these like beautiful places and

821
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 1: take these beautiful photos of herself looking amazing. Sure, I'm

822
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: sure right, And would it have been just as cool

823
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: as see that my r dwemal like would have been

824
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: just as cool as you? Like, you know, like could

825
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: you have had an amazing time that let you down

826
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 1: a different path in your life if it weren't so,

827
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: if you weren't if you hadn't been so focused on

828
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: what you were doing for the Graham. Yeah, I don't

829
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: know that it's better. I don't think it's better. And

830
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel safe. It doesn't feel like it's a

831
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: see place to explore because the ramifications are so real world.

832
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: It was one thing to feel unsafe because you could

833
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 1: be harassed. That's already shitty, But then to know that

834
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 1: you'd be out into your parents, your grandparents, like your friends,

835
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: your people back home, like to a community that you

836
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: struggle to be part of still because they're bigoted for

837
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: whatever reason. Right and and it's no one else's business

838
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: but your own, Like you get to decide when you

839
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: come out and blah blah blah. Right, Like to have

840
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: someone know that about you and then find you I

841
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: r L and then share it like that's a risk

842
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: I didn't have to take with the internet. Mm hmm.

843
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: I could still be my crazy self. You know, no

844
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: one was ever going to know I called. I lived

845
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: in Spain for my junior and senior year, trying not

846
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: to hate. It was so amazing. I would call my

847
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: family once a week because that was the long distance

848
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: plan that they could afford. If still a lot of

849
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 1: money to call back then right, um, they had no

850
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 1: idea what I was doing. There were no ramifications for

851
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 1: the life that I had. I got to live this

852
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: like fairy tale existence where I got to like leave

853
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: behind all the family trauma and like all the trauma

854
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: and like all their stuff and just live my own

855
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: life for two years. There's a reason I didn't come

856
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:30,479
Speaker 1: home after my juny or you're abroad like this is great. Yeah,

857
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: I can't there. That doesn't that one that doesn't happen

858
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: now can't happen now. So yeah, I really wish that

859
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: the real world ramifications weren't what they used to be,

860
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: or weren't aren't what they are now for people. Yeah,

861
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 1: they were closer to what they used to be, which

862
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: was nothing, very little. What you decided to share, what

863
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: you consented to to be trauma informed and sensitive about it,

864
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: like for your decisions to inform um the image that

865
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: the information people get to receive. And we don't live

866
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: that way now in real life, let along online. Does

867
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: that make sense? It makes so much sense, It makes

868
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: all It makes so much sense, And I think that's

869
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: exactly it. Somewhere along the line. It's like we gave

870
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: that up without even really realizing how precious it was. Yeah, yeah.

871
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: You know a few years ago, my mother in law

872
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: was living with us. She's disabled, she was sick, and

873
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: she'd come up here um because she couldn't. You know,

874
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: North Carolina was one of those states that didn't have um,

875
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,439
Speaker 1: the Medicaid expansion, so she needed she didn't work care

876
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: and it was no longer affordable down there. And I

877
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: remember reading something about how the Girl Scouts had chosen

878
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: this Pellow Autoon Networks to partner with them to make

879
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: the cyber security badge. And I would go to look

880
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: at their board of directors and they're C suite and

881
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, there's one woman. Do I have to

882
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: tell you what department she was running? Hr? Of course?

883
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 1: So right, So like I was like this, these fucking guys, right,

884
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: And so I'm about to go on a Twitter tirade.

885
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: And then I think about Kathy sitting on my front

886
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 1: porch and how easy it would be to find her

887
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 1: day in and day out, and I cannot. I can't

888
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: rant like i'd like to, which is a privilege, right,

889
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: but like to be able to speak my mind. But

890
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: it's one that most folks assume we have as a

891
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 1: an absolute right, and most of us don't, and fewer

892
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: of us do now that meaning you ever did? Oh? Absolutely,

893
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: you know. On the show, we talked to mostly women,

894
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: women of color, LGBTQ folks, most of whom are involved

895
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: in things like they're activists or they're like advocating for

896
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: making technology safer and better and the internet safe or

897
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 1: safer and better. I would say probably at least ten

898
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: different times times I have done interviews, they are in

899
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: some level of hiding. It's like, Oh, I'm not I'm

900
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: not in my apartment right now, I'm I'm speaking to

901
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 1: you from a safe location. Just recently, someone I had

902
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: an interview set with had to cancel. She was like,

903
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: I've pulled out of all public appearances because of because

904
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: I'm being attacked by right wing extremists because of my

905
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: disinformation work with the Biden administration. And it was like

906
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: the the amount of times that I have heard that

907
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: story again and again where it's like, oh, yeah, because

908
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 1: of my work, my opinions, putting my putting my opinions

909
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: out there, being civically engaged, I'm not safe. I'm not

910
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: able to be at home. I'm in I'm in a

911
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: safe place. You're speaking to me from a safe house.

912
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: Maybe you're not speaking to me at all, Like it

913
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: has happened again and again and again, and I think

914
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: it really says something about the state of play that

915
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: we're at right now. Oh yeah, Like if they can't

916
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 1: be civically engaged, then no, we aren't living in the democracy.

917
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,240
Speaker 1: That's violence against women in politics from top to bottom.

918
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 1: Right you can happen to him and being like politically

919
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: assassinated who are running for office, who are part of

920
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: a party, who are in office, and it also means

921
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: that women can't participate. That is the same level of

922
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 1: API in my mind, like you're not. Yeah, we are not.

923
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: This is not a democracy. And I think the sooner.

924
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: He said to my husband the other day, I was like,

925
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: what do you think of civil war would look like

926
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: in America on the twenty one century? And he's like this,

927
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: I think we're living it, I think, and we just

928
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 1: don't realize it for the most part. Yet this is it,

929
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 1: Like we are not in a position where I cannot believe.

930
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: So if you have other guests who are in this

931
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: position who need help, please feel free to send them

932
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: our way. We don't we're not cheap, and we can

933
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: get in touch with different funds for different kinds of

934
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: activists and journalists to help pay for things. Because it

935
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: makes me sick, and I'm not surprised this is where

936
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: we are. This is why we started this, because I

937
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: believe we're more than we are acting like we are

938
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: right now as a species. I believe that we're more

939
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,280
Speaker 1: than what we're doing right now. And I won't stop

940
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: being hopeful and I won't stop being optimistic about the

941
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 1: future of humanity, UM, and I won't stop fighting for

942
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: us to be more. And this is one small way

943
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 1: that I feel like we can start to move towards

944
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: more evolved, more human, more kind, more whatever the word is. Um. Yeah,

945
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: we're more than we are. It's twenty per century moment.

946
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. I

947
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: just want to say Hi. You can be us a

948
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 1: hello at tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

949
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No

950
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Brigittad. It's

951
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,280
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Donathan

952
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 1: Strictland as our executive producer, Tara Harrison as our producer,

953
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 1: and sound engineer, Michael Amata was our contributing producer. I'm

954
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: host Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,

955
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts

956
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: from I Heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app,

957
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. H