WEBVTT - What Does the Antifa Executive Order Mean for Free Speech? 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:09.200 As media. Hey everyone, it's James here. We promised that 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:13.200 we would get you something on the changes or lack 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:18.520 thereof after Donald Trump's series of executive orders targeting certain groups, 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.840 and we reached out to a lawyer, Moe, who is 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:23.759 a fantastic lawyer, and we asked her into you them. 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.040 They said they had just done an interview with Final 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:31.400 Store Radio, which is an excellent show, and they suggested 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:33.199 that I take listen to that. I took listen to that, 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.280 and I think it's a fantastic interview and I don't 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:37.880 think as much as that we can add to it. 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.080 So we're going to re air that interview in full. 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:44.479 The one thing I would add to it is that 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:46.840 there have been a number of cases recently where grand 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.400 juries have not returned an indictment. That's relatively rare, but 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.440 we are seeing that more frequently, and that just enforces 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:58.600 everything that Moe says here, which is that at this 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.640 time we still have sep of powers, and at this 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.800 time the executive cannot simply make law. One still has 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.839 to be prosecuted according to a statute by a district 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.920 attorney or a USA attorney. Right they president cannot just 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:17.039 make law in this instance pertaining to the First Amendment 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.680 by executive order, that doesn't mean that they will not 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:22.760 be harassment. And as you're here here, those two are 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.440 distinct things, and I think MO gives an excellent outline 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:29.680 on how we should think about and conceive this moment 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.280 in American history. So, without any more of me taking 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:35.399 your time, this is an excellent interview that bursted with MO. 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:37.640 I hope you enjoy it, and if you would like 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:39.880 to check out Final Store Radio, you can do so 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.160 using the link that I will put below this episode. 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:49.320 Could you please introduce yourself for the audience with any name, pronouns, location, 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.840 or other contexts that would help us understand who you are. 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.640 Good morning. I'm more a Meltzer Cohen. Everybody calls me MO. 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.640 My pronouns are they are MO. I'm an adultists and 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.960 educator and an attorney in New York. Primarily I represent 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.400 people who are arrested in the course of justice struggles 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:14.280 and do advocacy for incarcerated people and movements. 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:16.480 So we're here to talk about the recent White House 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.119 statements following the assassin I mean, I mean following the 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:25.639 reelection of Trump, but more recently the assassination of Charles Kirk, 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.760 that Antifa is a domestic terrorist organization. 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:31.960 Can you talk about what. 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:35.160 Legally changed with the executive order of September twenty second 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:38.120 of this year or yesterday? Is from when we're recording 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:43.000 this National Presidential Security Memo number seven titled Countering Domestic 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.640 Terrorism and Organized Political Violence. Again, it came out on 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.919 September twenty fifth. What changed with those Well. 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.560 Before I answer that question, the first thing I want 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.000 to say is nothing that I say on this program 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.680 is legal advice is in information. If you want legal advice, 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:07.040 I vigorously encourage you to have a privileged conversation with 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:12.280 a human attorney who is admitted to practice in your jurisdiction. 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:18.840 As to your overall question, what changed legally is essentially nothing. 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.880 I think the top level takeaway here is that these 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:26.880 executive orders are frightening. They are a frightening contribution to 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:31.240 an already dangerous political discourse, and they may very well 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:36.040 end up being quite disruptive to left movements, including I 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:42.560 think primarily centrist liberal movements. But nothing that was legal 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.280 last week is illegal this week, certainly not because of 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.920 those statements, and the state cannot prosecute you for things 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:53.760 that were legal when you did them. So yeah, I 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.400 mean I can't see the future, but as of right now, 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:02.800 the law and the constitution have So if this administration 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:08.720 wants to in any meaningful legal way designate anyone, any 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:14.160 group as domestic terrorists, they can change the law, which 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.680 is not going to be quick or easy, or they 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:20.720 can dispense with the law. But under the current legal regime, 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:25.520 there is no mechanism that would make it illegal to 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:31.159 be and to whatever that means, or to hold anti 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:36.040 fascist values, or to assemble or to petition the government. 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:40.720 And you know, to be clear, not that doing any 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:42.880 of those things or being any of those things are 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:47.560 necessarily effective at creating social change right now, but my 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:49.640 point really is they're not illegal. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.200 Just to sort of throw this back your way, So 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:54.200 there was when you were responding to that, it made 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.000 me think of there's a veteran who lost a bunch 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:02.680 of his property during the Aleen hurricane that is about 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.400 a year ago hit this region. He was recorded, like 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.560 he went pretty viral, calling out and shouting down a 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.200 state politician who had a like public meeting here in 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.320 the area, just saying there's been like total like lack 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:20.719 of support after the storm, and here are all the 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:22.840 needs and you're just allowing politician this sort of thing. 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.240 The same man, right after the executive order that Trump 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:32.080 made about burning US flags, went out and burned one 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:34.840 across from the White House and then he got arrested 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:38.120 for it. Like, I thought that there was a Supreme 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.120 Court decision back in the eighties that said it's not 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.880 actually illegal to burn a flag. So does that make 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.440 his executive orders now law? 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:51.000 No, there is a Supreme Court decision. It's called Texas d. Johnson, 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:56.040 and it is still law. And in fact, after Texas d. Johnson, 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:03.880 Congress actually tried to make a federal statute criminalizing burning 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:08.719 the American flag and it was found unconstitutional. It is 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:15.239 astonishing and illuminating that that man was arrested for burning 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:19.680 an American flag, which is absolutely constitutionally protected conduct. I 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:24.200 will say, I'm not sure what he was actually charged with. 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:29.480 Right If he was charged with, you know, creating a 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.960 fire hazard, I suppose that, apart from the fact that 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.719 it's clearly First Amendment retaliation, I suppose that you could 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.520 be criminally charged with creating a fire hazard in a 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.320 public place or something like that, but no flag burning 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:51.520 remains protected regardless of what the President or Congress says 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.080 about it. It would take either an amendment to the 0:06:55.160 --> 0:07:01.880 Constitution or a very serious change and Supreme Court jurisprudence 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.440 to make five burning illegal. 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.960 Okay, Yeah, so this is the distinction I'd love for 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.600 us to get back to in a moment between like 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:16.560 legality versus what, you know, the sort of like box 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:20.360 that that powers decide to put a thing into. Like 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.640 I know, I've I've definitely been detained not for being 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:25.920 an annoyance to the cops, but within my legal rights. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:27.920 But they'll say, ah, but your shoes untied on a 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:32.760 Tuesday whatever, and then waste my time. 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:36.200 Let's talk about that, And because I do want to 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.360 talk with more specificity about these specific executive orders and 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:44.280 statements and also about what legal mechanisms do exist that 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:50.480 are and can be and have long been used to 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.920 surveil and disrupt and target the left. But actually, before 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:56.920 we do that, why don't we talk about sort of 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.880 some of the categories that are playing in playing here 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:05.080 and be really clear about definitions or at least understand 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.320 that there are differences between these categories, right, because there 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:14.120 is a difference between the law and political discourse. And 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:19.720 there is a difference importantly between law and power. And 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:25.640 there's certainly at least some daylight between the legal constraints 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:30.880 on state power and the state's power to ignore those constraints. 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.199 And then I think what will be significant to this 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:40.240 discussion is there is a significant difference between antifa, which 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.600 is a set of practices or beliefs that are not 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.880 necessarily even all that well defined, and what this administration 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:54.400 refers to when it uses or deploys the word antifa. 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.640 And there is yet more difference between the booking man 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.880 that is being invoked by that and the individuals and 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.920 organizations that the administration actually intends to target. There's a 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:11.560 difference between political targeting, surveillance, disruption, and prosecution, right, those 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:16.239 things are all different, And there's a difference between prosecution 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:21.200 and conviction. And there is an important difference between someone's 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:27.079 political beliefs and associations which are and remain protected by 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:32.280 the First Amendment, and politically motivated conduct that means illegal. 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:37.240 So you know, executive orders and these kinds of statements 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:42.040 on national security are policy statements. They don't in and 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.719 of themselves make things happen, they don't in and of 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.840 themselves change the law, and an executive order that is 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.600 inconsistent with the constitution or the existing law at least 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.040 ought to be unenforceable. 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:57.920 Okay, but yeah, but recognizing that that distinction, you know, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.640 cops are going to cop, investigators are going to investigate, 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:07.280 and those processes are disruptive for people whose lives they're affecting. 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:11.000 They can affect your job prospects, they can affect your 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:15.079 housing stability, they can affect whether or not some unhinged 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:17.760 person decides to attack you because they've heard some conspiracy 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:21.960 theory about you. But so that distinction of like, well, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.439 you might get exonerated by a court after you've been 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:29.160 held in pre trial for a year, I guess that 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.200 is an important distinction, right, because it means you're not 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.920 spending you know, an extra thirty years or twenty years 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:36.040 or whatever behind bars. 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:37.800 With the terrorism enhancement. 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:41.240 Well, I mean that is also called comfort. I'm really 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.440 not trying to be dismissive. I think it's important to 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.280 recognize what these distinctions are and the primarily because I 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.600 want people to understand what exactly we need to be 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:55.160 prepared for and what we need to be worried about 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.560 and what tools we have and what tools are effective 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.640 at resisting what's coming down the pike. And in order 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:04.600 to do that, we need to know what's coming down 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.680 the pipe. We need to know who actually has power 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.839 in this situation. The fact that an executive order doesn't 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.560 change the law does not mean an executive order will 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.200 not result in a lot more state repression, or that 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:19.880 it won't disrupt movements or even ruin lives. It doesn't 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.640 mean that Trump is not going to accomplish the thing 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.320 that I think he's actually trying to accomplish here in 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:28.840 the immediate short term, which is broadcasting to his base 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:34.960 that non state action against people identified as or perceived 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.360 to be part of the despised group you know is 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:43.600 desirable by this administration will be condoned by this administration. 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.800 I think that is important to recognize. Saying that it 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.280 doesn't change the law does not mean it isn't dangerous. 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.040 I just want to be very precise about I think 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.280 the ways in which it is likely to be dangerous 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.559 and some of the ways that it might not might 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.280 not be. And again I'm not trying to be dismissive 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:05.200 but state repression exists all the time. State repression against 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.600 leftists and anarchism in particular has been ongoing the whole time. 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.400 This is not a Trump thing. And in fact, I 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.880 think it's important to note that the executive who's probably 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.640 most responsible for having laid this groundwork is Biden, who 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.720 set forth a policy strategy that focused on funding the 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.640 federal targeting of what at that point he was calling 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.280 political extremists, which was a label that was being applied 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.360 to groups on the left as well as neo Nazis 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:37.000 and all right groups. So this administration has already been engaged, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:42.360 and not just this administration, right, we have centuries at 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:48.480 this point of targeted disruption of left movements. The way 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.920 that it's currently being rationalized is a little bit different, 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:57.839 the way that it's being broadcast normalized is a little 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.439 bit different, but it's I will say, I don't think 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.559 this is actually anything all that new or different, And 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.880 the difference in how dangerous it is is one of 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.680 scale maybe rather than it's a difference in scope rather 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:14.360 than nature. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.200 I think, yeah, I think that's an important distinction. I 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.280 think that like sometimes people in the center and even 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.079 sometimes people on the left, will look at in particular 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:29.040 things that Trump administrations do because they are obfuscatory, they're 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:33.160 like confusing, and they're bombastic, and there's a part of 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.040 us that that we'll say like, no, but that's that's 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.680 not what's actually happening. That's not what actually was the 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.040 motivation for that person or like that person voted you know, 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:43.319 Republican in the last election. 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:43.720 Whatever. 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:45.680 And so I think that that distinction that you're making 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.199 of you know this, this may not this may be 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.720 like an approach to motivate the base, it may prove 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.959 not to be legally like standing, but that doesn't mean 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.160 that it doesn't have an impact on people. Yeah, and 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:01.120 what we should be able to looking for out of 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.439 this is a projection of not only like a call 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.280 to action or red meat for the base or whatever, 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.640 but also like a clear proposition of that's meant to 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:17.400 chill us and chill some society, that these are the 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.040 intentions moving forward. This is the narrative, and this is 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:21.960 the story that they're going to be going with. 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.000 Right absolutely, And I think it is important to point 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.680 out right now we're seeing a lot of people pointing 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:33.320 out the hypocrisy and sort of the fact that these 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:39.840 rationales are really untethered from factual reality. And I suppose 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.360 that's true and important to note, but pointing out the 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.800 hypocrisy is not going to be particularly useful. I mean, 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:51.119 I think it's part of the point, right. Manipulating the facts, 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:56.320 making narrative claims that are totally unsupportable, and muddying the 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:01.800 waters in this really fundamental way is part of the project. 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:07.520 There was a German jurist I guess who became the 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.200 highest jurist during the Nazi regime in Germany, but continued 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.160 writing theory like was writing it before as a member 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:17.040 of the Conservative Revolution that they called it, and then 0:15:17.080 --> 0:15:20.040 afterwards he survived the war and continued living in Germany 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:24.640 writing Karl Schmidt, who talks a lot about like the 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:32.000 limits of liberal approaches towards legality and liberal governance, with 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.680 a belief that it makes sense to push it to 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:39.040 its limits and beyond break it and recognize that governance 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:42.720 is about the imposition of power and the sheltering of 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.360 those who are under the controller or in the protected 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:50.520 community of the state, with a consideration of war through 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:54.200 the state's power against internal enemies as well as external enemies. 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.640 And this is the devil's bargain that we make. It's 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.600 like Hobbes on steroids. And it feels like a lot 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.160 of the stuff that the Heritage Foundation and Project twenty 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.160 twenty five has been pushing was that they have this. 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.560 I know that there are some theocrats in that movement. 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:14.320 There's the unitary executive theory that a lot of them 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.200 have been pushing, and they'll play with this idea like 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.600 the Trump administration will play with this identity of the 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:23.200 King King Trump or whatever the Dawn as it were, 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.800 like making these executive decisions and being unbeholden to anything else. 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:30.280 And they've actually been, like you know, saying to courts, 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.720 you can't stop us from deporting these peoples who with 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.640 unsafe third country whatever, stop us. I wonder if, like 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.600 I wonder if you have any comments on this, if 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.120 I'm coming out of left field or what. 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.080 Well, look, I'll say it is for Karl Schmidt as 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:49.960 opposed to the Heritage Foundation, he was at least intellectually honest. Yeah, 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:50.800 I think that. 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.160 We are in this moment where they're trying to normalize 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.400 what we Schmidt would have called like a state of exception, 0:16:55.800 --> 0:17:00.800 where they're sort of unbridled executive power, the sort of 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.280 suspension of any constraints on state power. 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:08.320 Right. And it's funny because I've been in conversations over 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.159 the last months where and talking with a bunch of 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.720 my friends, none of them are particularly enamored of the 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.080 current legal regime, and we're talking about how dangerous it 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.119 is that the administration is dispensing with the rule of law, 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.160 you know, And it's sort of amusing for a bunch 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.399 of anarchists to be like, oh, no, the rule of 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.840 laws collapsing. But when I'm talking about the rule of 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.760 law in this way, I'm really talking about constraints on 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.639 state power, and those are what's collapsing. And that's exactly 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:39.960 what Schmidt envisioned and argued for Frankly, and I do 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:41.560 think we're seeing that. I think one of the things 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.080 that I've noticed in some of these eos, especially the 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.040 couple of statements from the last few days, is he 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:50.200 keeps talking about things like love of God and Christian 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:54.720 anti Christian sentiment, which is I mean, you know, this 0:17:54.960 --> 0:18:00.119 is entirely incompatible with the First Amendment, which provides no 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.399 state shall establish our religion, right. I mean, we really 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:11.280 are outside the contours of recognized you know, legal norms, 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.760 constitutional norms, and I think a lot of this stuff 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.639 is functioning and is meant to normalize this kind of 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:24.760 discourse and to inject it not only into the exercise 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:28.639 of government power, but to normalize it in terms of 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.800 what people understand to be legitimate legal discourse. 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:46.520 Kind of shifting a bit like let's get into some 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.640 of the implications of this. So if it hasn't changed law, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.440 but we recognize that practices and culture are being shifted. 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:55.600 I've heard of a bunch of people getting fired and 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:58.960 getting docxing attention. There's a website now I think called 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.359 like who Killed Charlie Kirk? The People who Killed Charlie 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.160 Kirk or something like that, and maybe an app. It's 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:07.560 kind of like the post Charlie Kirk assassination version of 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.720 Canary emission. Does this mean that police are coming after 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.080 people for sharing memes? Is that happening? Is that what's 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:15.280 happening in these cases? 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.600 I mean police have always been coming after people for 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.639 sharing memes. I would say I get calls at least 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:27.120 every month from people who have been visited by federal 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:31.200 agents because they said something on the Internet that was 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.840 upsetting to somebody else and then they reported it, and 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.000 the FBI is just following up on a tip. But 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.679 that said, this doesn't vitiate the First Amendment. Let me 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:46.439 say that in human language, thank you. This does not 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:52.520 undermine the First Amendment. The First Amendment still exists, and 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:57.320 all of the legal framework around having the right to 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:01.000 say things as long as those things are not true threats, 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:07.280 that still exists. So it is not unusual for people 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:12.199 to be targeted or monitored or visited by law enforcement, 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:16.520 but typically that stuff doesn't actually really go anywhere. I 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.800 am concerned about people being subject to doxing and having 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.600 negative social consequences and fallout from this kind of stuff, 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:28.760 and it certainly is you know, can be life ruining. Again, 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.600 I don't mean to trivialize the effects of this kind 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.480 of retaliation social retaliate, but it is not the same 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.440 thing as a criminal prosecution or a criminal conviction. It's 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.840 a different set of mechanisms. Now, one thing that I 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:47.760 do think is interesting is that these eos and the 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:51.000 statement that came out on the twenty second and yesterday 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.960 particularly identify certain modes of that kind of social conduct 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.040 that you're talking about, like doxing swatting rag, which is 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.560 making false report of like an ongoing violent crime, so 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:06.640 that a swap team shows up and raids somebody's. 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:10.160 Home, which can be deadly right, this is very. 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:15.160 Dangerous and interestingly to me anyway, there are these specific 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.280 behaviors that are identified and condemned in those statements, and 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.560 those specific behaviors are largely tools of the right. People 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.120 on the left are not notably interested in sending law 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.040 enforcement to someone's house. So there is a perverse way 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.159 in which this may end up being sort of protective, 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:35.119 I suppose, because I think it would be very difficult 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:38.399 for the government to go after the people who are 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:43.879 exposing ICE agents, which again is not illegal right now. 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.520 Even if it were to become illegal, it isn't right now, 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:49.280 and it would be very hard for them to go 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:53.959 after those folks and not also go after the folks 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.720 who are running that silly website about people who say 0:21:57.720 --> 0:21:59.320 something mean about Charlie Kirk. 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:01.800 Yeah, I guess to me, And this is the speculation 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.920 outside of like legal advice or anything. Not that we're 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.280 giving legal advice, but outside of like the legal framework. 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:09.280 Definitely not giving legal advice. 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:10.879 I mean, it kind of points to a thing that 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:16.000 already this this hypocrisy or this difference between what it's 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:18.880 called when one party does it versus what it's called 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:20.920 when another party does it, like outside of the fact 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:22.399 that the government gets to do what it wants to 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.280 until the government stops itself from doing a thing. I mean, 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:27.280 it feels like it's a part of the creation of 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:31.840 a differentiated subjectivity. Like there's the subject of the state 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:38.359 that falls under the values that are being attacked Christianity, whiteness, heteronormativity, 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:44.159 these like patriotism in these certain ways versus the people 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:49.560 that are doing these same things but are corrupt, are dirty, 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:55.520 are outside our internal enemies, are Soros funded. However we 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:59.400 want to like yeah that, but yeah, I guess that's 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:01.000 not I mean, that's this is nothing new. 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:03.640 It's just an amplification of that same right. 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:08.479 Yeah, very much. And you know what is changing a 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.640 little bit, although all of these threads have been present, 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:15.639 is that this administration is rationalizing this particular kind of 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:20.919 targeting with respect to in particular Palestine solidarity movements, gender 0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:24.159 nonconforming people and what they're calling anti buzz. So you know, 0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:28.560 we're seeing we've been see congressional investigations, the allocation of 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:32.439 funds to federal law enforcement, purging not just individuals, but 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:37.440 whole agencies that the administration feels are insufficiently aligned with 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.800 its priority replacing federal law enforcement. That and I mean 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:45.080 ranging from FBI agents on the ground to doj with 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:53.240 people who will enthusiastically and blindly pursue these priorities, and 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:56.719 using a lot of resources to target the nonprofit text 0:23:56.720 --> 0:24:01.119 status and funding of groups identified as being aligned with 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:05.000 any of the disfavored movements. And one of the things 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:08.480 that they're doing is kind of it's this real spaghetti, 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:13.000 you know, throwing everything at it, and it's very overwhelming. 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:18.280 It's overwhelming for movement infrastructure, it's overwhelming for legal for 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:21.960 people on the ground, and it's all happening at once, 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:25.760 and I think it's all being it's mutually compounding, it's 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:30.600 mutually reinforcing, it's demoralizing, and in particular, the stuff that's 0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:36.320 happening with immigration is so devastating. And because immigration is 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:40.399 so wholly under the control of the executive that is 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.639 an area where he's able to sort of make a 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:46.840 policy and make it so and have it be carried 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:50.280 out by FIAT, and he has made his own private 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:55.760 army with ICE. And I think one of the effects 0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:59.320 that I in just in my observation, that that has 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:03.800 had is that people see that happening and assume that 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:07.439 he has that level of control over everything else. And 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:12.480 I do want to point out again it's absolutely devastating 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.520 to see what's happening in the immigration space, but in 0:25:16.600 --> 0:25:21.800 fact he does not have that level of control over 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:26.520 the rest of government and over non immigration laws, and 0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:28.400 I think that's really important to remember. 0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:32.439