WEBVTT - Sarah Kendzior 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.240 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Steps podcast. 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:16.880 My guest today Sarah Kenjo, who is not only a 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.200 writer in the PhD Nea for Apology, but the guru 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.279 when it comes to the political world, especially from the 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:28.640 view in the heartland, from the gen X millennial borderline. Sarah, 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:30.720 good to have you here. Oh, thank you so much 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:32.919 for having me on. So let me be clear here, 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.600 because things change every day that we're doing this Tuesday, 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.000 the nineteen of May. But what's the viewpoint of the 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.800 coronavirus from your location right now? I mean allegedly from 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.879 my location. We don't have a high amount of cases, 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.640 and we've opened up the state, but they're not really 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.400 testing people. So people are kind of just, you know, 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:55.200 stumbling in the dark and hoping to not get infected. 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.520 But we're certainly not in as bad a position as 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:59.760 New York or l A or San Francisco, are these 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:02.680 big cities. Well, since in your new bestseller, Hiding in 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.119 Plain Site, you drilled down into the politics of Missouri, 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.640 now should I be saying Missouri or Missouri Missouri? I'm 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.440 in the Missouri part, trying to drive an hour south, 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:17.399 I'll be in Missouri okay, uh, the governor and the 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:22.080 legislature presently of what political party, oh, Republican, and our 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.560 governor is a non elected governor who replaced the previous 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.560 governor who had been tying up a woman in his basement, 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:32.759 photographing or a half naked embezzling funds, committing fraud, and 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:35.480 doing other stuff. So you know that this guy is 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.000 just more of a run of the mill Mike Pence 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:43.320 Aclyte type GOP guy. Well, you know, living on the 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.640 West Coast and tuning into national media on a regular basis, 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.480 like the New York Times, Washington Posting Walls Rejournal. Maybe 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.040 it's the news cycle, but it doesn't seem that there's 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:56.080 been a whole hell of a lot of news about 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.080 the scandal and the governorship in Missouri. Now I'm in 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.640 there briefly, was in eighteen, you know, the first time 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:07.559 he got arrested. Second time, it kind of you know, faded. Um. 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:09.120 I mean I thought it was a big deal, not 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:11.679 just as a resident of Missouri, but because I think 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.920 of Missouri as a microcosm for the US, which I 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.160 write about in Hiding in Plain Sight, but also the 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.280 governor Eric Righten's as a microcosm for what could happen 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.840 for Trump because he had just, you know, brazenly committed 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.760 a series of crimes. Everyone wanted him gone, his own 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.600 party wanted him gone because of the intensity of the corruption, 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.280 and he was just refusing to leave. And eventually, you know, 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:34.480 they did manage to get rid of him. And it's 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.040 really something when someone is too corrupt for the Missouri 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.000 goop um and and he left. However, I don't think 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.320 that will necessarily be the case with Trump, but I 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.880 saw it as kind of like a test run of 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.800 abusive power and criminal impunity. Okay, well, let's just start 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:53.480 with your state. What degree is jerrymandering a factor. It's 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:55.640 a huge factor. I mean, I think that's true with 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.920 almost any Republican state. But even more than jerrymandering, dar 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.679 money is a factor. We have the highest amount of 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.480 dark money, and we are both you know, pretty expert. 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:11.040 Not all my audiences please explain dark money. Dark money 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:13.760 is just money that gets poured into a campaign where 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.200 you don't know the source. You don't know where it's 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.520 coming from, so you don't know what kind of special 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.720 interests or individuals are deciding to back this particular candidate. 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:27.359 And after citizens United Supreme Court ruling in two thousand 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.560 and ten, they basically decided there weren't going to be 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.880 limits on dark money, and until that point, states had 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:38.520 decided it individually. Missouri was particularly corrupt, to the point 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.520 that they said, you know, in Missouri, there's not even 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.960 such a thing as quid pro quote corruption because it's 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.600 so rampant. So we were kind of, you know, the 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:49.720 bell weather ahead of the curve on that one. UM. 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:54.120 And that's really what's infested our politics on a national levels. 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.280 It's not just that that politicians can be bought. We 0:03:57.320 --> 0:03:59.960 don't know who's buying them. We don't know who's behind 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.240 find Uh. You know those billions of dollars. Well, since 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:07.600 you're an expert, the average person would say, wait, can't 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.120 people and companies only donate a limited amount? Can you 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:16.400 explain a little bit further, especially in Missouri, who is 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:20.120 raising these funds and how they're being dispersed. I mean, 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.599 there are certain big players. Um, you know, the the 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.640 guy in Missouri probably heard heard of Rex Sinkfeld. But 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.880 you know, you see this um with other mega donors 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.360 throughout the US. UM. You know, there's ways of circumventing 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.880 these laws. There are loopholes, there are limitations, Um, if 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.560 you're an individual as to how much you can donate, 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.520 but you can form packs, you could form you know, 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.880 other kind of corporate bodies in order to get that 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.719 money flowing. And so that's been a problem nationwide and 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.000 they tried to clean it up in Missouri. They actually 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.640 the citizens of Missouri passed an initiative called Clean Missouri 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.360 that was supposed to get rid of jerrymandering, dark money, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.159 all these other obstacles to democ grassy. Unfortunately, the legislature 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.839 is right now trying to strike it down. You know, 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.680 there's a trending hashtag You're called dirty Missouri, and you 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.600 know that's what that's what we are. We're dirty Missouri. Okay, 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.000 So the dark money coming into Missouri, does it tend 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.200 to be state money or national money? Well, it's hard 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.840 to tell, in part because it is dark money. UM, 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.120 I do think that, you know, there is a high 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:29.240 conglomeration of state interests. There are people in particular from 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.920 outside St. Louis that are interested in buying up properties 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:36.719 in St. Louis, managing the politics of St. Louis. I've 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:40.960 noticed that the national GOP kind of uses Missouri UM 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.800 as an experiment, like as a Petri dish for their operations. 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.120 This was true with Ted Cruz before it was true 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.440 with Trump. You saw Cambridge Analytica, you know, which is 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.159 that big company um, you know, located in the UK 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.920 and involved in Brexit that was doing data mining, UM, 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.800 you know, targeted ads, propaganda so forth. They were involved 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.440 in Missouri experimenting in Missouri. UM. And we've also just 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:08.320 been kind of, uh, you know, a litmus test for 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.520 the country. You have every kind of political um extreme here, 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.240 you know, from extreme left across the spectrum to extreme right. 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.080 It's where Phillis Schlafley was from. It's where the Tea 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:23.120 Party emerged. It's also where the Ferguson movement emerged. UM. 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:25.240 So you really get a bit of everything. And I 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:29.000 think a lot of political actors and donors see it 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.280 as an opportune place to experiment. Think, well, you know, 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.719 how is this going to play out on a national level, Like, 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.640 let's see what happens in Missouri, the state that barely 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.760 gets covered, where people won't really notice if we get 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.320 up to something dirty. Let's go back to Cambridge and 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.280 political from my for a moment on the Michael Lewis podcast, 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.280 the guy was in charge of Cambridge Analytica said it 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:56.440 didn't work, that the profiling didn't work. What's your view 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:58.800 point on that? I mean, did did he say what? 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:02.159 It didn't work? At the In terms of targeting, I 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.279 think it's hard to tell. I don't think that there's 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.039 been a qualitative study, like in terms of you know, 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.760 looking at people's social media profiles, trying to guess their tastes, 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.480 trying to guide them to a particular candidate. I think, uh, 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.280 you know, it might have worked, it might not have, 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.400 but to my knowledge, there hasn't really been a study 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:20.920 of it. You know, I looked at a lot of 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.440 those uh you know, Russia backed propaganda groups, although it's 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:26.720 not solely Russia, um that was doing things like this 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.680 as we know, it was actors from the US, the 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.560 UK and so forth. Um, And you know, it did 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:35.120 seem to persuade some I did think that it's influence 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:39.920 in terms of like political advertising was overstated. I think 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.080 there are a lot of things at play in the 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.320 twenty sixteen election that helped sway it. But when people 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:49.040 talk about foreign influence, they often focused on bots and 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.680 troll farms and the kind of things associated with Cambridge Analytica. 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:56.280 There's a British journalist, UM Carol called Wallader who's studied 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.520 it in detail. Um, and whistleblowers that have come forward, 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.640 and I really worry about that that company, and one's 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.240 like it is privacy is the fact that they've assembled 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:11.680 this giant database full of identifying details that can be sold, 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.720 that can be used by different actors for different means. 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:17.480 You know, we don't know what the future of that 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:19.840 information is going to be, and a lot of people 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.960 put their data on the internet unknowing that this would 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.480 be its ultimate destination. And I do think that that's 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:29.880 a violation of our privacy. Let's go back to Missouri. 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.040 Uh So at the present time, uh, what's the makeup 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:38.040 of the legislature, right versus left, Republican versus Democrat. It's 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.400 almost entirely Republican. Uh In terms of the main positions 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:46.080 in the legislature that are filled. There's one the state auditor, 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:50.280 and she's running for governor against our current Republican governor 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.199 and she's the sole Democrat that's in power. And that 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:55.480 was not the case when I moved here. That was 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.240 back in two thousand and six, it was pretty even. 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.440 You know, it's fifty fifty. We had to democratic, uh, 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:05.560 a democratic governor Democratic senator with Clara mccaskell. There's this 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.480 belief that Missouri has always been a you know, quote 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.360 deep red state. Uh, that's not true. But I also 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.680 just don't think any state is red or blue. Um. 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:16.439 You know, as I said in the book, that every 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.400 state is purple. It's purple like a bruce. Um. You know, 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.880 it's a state that's dealing with its own pain, its 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.800 own problems. Um. And it's a lot more complex than 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:26.959 the media LA is out. And I think because the 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.920 national media has now become conglomerated in just a few cities, 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:34.080 like in you know, New York, l A, uh, sometimes Chicago, 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.839 I guess for the Midwest, it's had this kind of 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.959 unrealistic portrayal of how states relate to each other and 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.920 how politics play out within states where it's really a 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:46.400 big mix. Um. And it's not so easy to type 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.959 cast anybody California or Missouri. Now in some of these 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.800 gerrymandered states, I believe, like in Wisconsin, in terms of 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.520 sheer numbers, the Democrats are victorious, but in terms of 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:02.120 the elections because of jerrymandering. The Republican's rule. Is that 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.920 a similar situation in Missouri. Yeah, although the the issue 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:10.680 with Wisconsin that worries me a lot is voter disenfranchisement 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.120 because after the partial repeal of the v r A, 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.400 the Voting Rights Act in two thousand thirteen, there were 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.520 new ID laws. And back in twos sixteen you add 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:22.960 the Wisconsin election for the presidency, where you know, Trump 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.880 won that state by about thirty thousand votes I think, 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.439 and over two hundred voters were turned away because they 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:33.480 were told they didn't have the prerequisite identification. Uh. And 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.480 there's a lot of question as to that, as to 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.160 whether that was legitimate, and as to whether these voter 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.040 ID laws, um you know, are keeping people from voting. 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.640 You know, it's clear that they are. Missouri has since 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.840 passed a law, um you know, requiring voter I D 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.840 that can result in people being turned away. But at 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.840 this point, you know, I'm worried about coronavirus, I'm worried 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:54.880 about whether there's going to be an election. I'm worried 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.320 about whether we'll be able to safely vote. So a 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.480 lot of that stuff is h is up in the air, 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.720 I think for everybody, but certainly for us. Okay, let's 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:07.200 just stay with the safely vote. Certainly here in California. Uh, 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.160 whatever elections we have will be by mail. Do we 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.760 anticipate that will be a fifty state situation or not. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.160 I think it should be. I think for public safety, 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.600 it should be by mail and it should be easy 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.200 to do. We just finally in Missouri how to ruling 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.800 that you'll be able to vote by mail as long 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.600 as you have some sort of medical rationale, you know, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.000 I think, including if you fall into the category of 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.960 seven year older you're a high risk person for coronavirus. 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:36.960 The rest of us, I think, need to go see 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.480 an auditor if we want to vote, um, you know, 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.920 via mail, which I think is ridiculous. I mean, people 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.199 are not going to put the time and effort into that, 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:47.640 and it's a risky disease. You know, we don't know 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:49.160 what the hell it does. We don't know what the 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.000 ultimate effect is. And you shouldn't be asking people, I 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.480 think too, you know, potentially put their life on the 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.400 line to go vote. It should be simple. Um. You know, 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.880 Oregon and other states have been doing voting by mail 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.520 for a while. But this is why the GOP wants 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:04.640 to shut down the post office. That was one of 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.240 the first things they announced had to go in March, um, 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.040 you know, in in their new little budgetary cuts. And 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.920 that's a you know, the movement of an aspiring autocrat. 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.560 That's the move of a party that does not want 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.880 free and fair elections. Now, like you, I grew up 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.400 in Connecticut, but I'm obviously older than you. But the 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:29.599 first thing I remember Trump doing was saving Wollman Rink, Okay, 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.840 and he got out a lot of press. And I 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:36.600 was under the impression that the guy was smart. Certainly 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.280 I no longer have that impression now that he is president. 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.000 So when it comes to the post Office, in these 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:48.800 other uh plans, do you think he's aware? Do you 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:53.560 think it comes from him who is generating this behavior now, 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.040 not something that has to do with bureaucracy, not something 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.320 that has to do with all the little details. You know, 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.200 what Trump wants is a guaranteed win. You know, he 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.440 had said that before. Like people tend to not realize it, 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.160 but Trump ran or nearly ran for president five times, 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:11.920 almost ran in a d A in ninety six, he 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.440 ran in two thousand, he ran two thousand twelve, if 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.400 he ran in two thousand sixteen, he had set for 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.400 about thirty years that he would only run and not 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:25.160 drop out early if the win was predetermined. Um, and 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.240 you know how literally you want to take that, I 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.560 don't know, but basically that's what he cares about. He 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:34.400 cares about winning, about power, about money, about immunity from prosecution. 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.240 He's not thinking about the organization of our bureaucracy. I 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.080 don't think he necessarily knows the law except for the 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.960 extent that he needs to break it to accomplish what 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.520 he wants. And as president, he can break the law 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.880 by rewriting it, having his lackeys like Bill Barr rewrite it. 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.480 So that's kind of how he operates. And he's always 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.400 surrounded himself with people who are a lot smarter and 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:01.080 savvier at handling these details, especially legal details, whether Roy 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.800 Khon or Michael Cohen, or Bill Barr or Mitch McConnell. 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.280 You know, those are the ones that work it out. 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.920 He just has his own self interest, and you know, 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:14.000 that's primarily what what he's there, you know, to accomplish. Okay, 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.800 let's go back to twenties sixteen since you mentioned that, 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:23.280 uh needle to say nately Silver called the previous election 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.000 and it he did a little bit of a maya culpa, 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.960 but then he kind of explained, well, really the polls 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:34.600 were right, okay, and certainly the New York Times missed it. 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.480 This was before Bezos had brought the Washington poster injected 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.200 a lot of money, so it wasn't of the profile 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.600 it had now, needless say, the Wall Street journals on 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.160 the other side of the fence. What are the reasons? 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.520 And one of the primary reasons you believe Trump was 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:54.720 victorious in Um, well, I had anticipated he was going 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:56.960 to win, uh you know, and there are a number 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.000 of reasons for that. I mean, one was he did 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.240 have a base of support. People refused to recognize that 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.960 that base existed for a long time. They treated it 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.520 like a joke. They treated his candidacy like entertainment. Um. 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.360 I saw him as an American demagogue, and as time 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.960 went on, I saw him as having, uh, you know, 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.440 similar style to the kind of dictators that I had 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.000 studied in the former Soviet Union for most of my career. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.200 And you know, for those who don't know my degree 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.640 in anthropology, UM you know, I spent that studying uz Pakistan. 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.200 I sent that studying some of the most brutal dictators 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.400 and flamboyant dictators in the world, and Trump reminded me 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.520 of them. Then I realized that this was not a 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.160 metaphorical connection. You know, Trump was literally connected to the 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:42.160 former Soviet Union through his financial dealings, through his hiring 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.880 of Paul Manafort, who had worked for the Kremlin, as 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.960 his campaign manager. And I realized Russia had a real 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.760 investment in Trump winning, which you know, people in government 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.440 also realized. What they didn't seem to realize is that 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.080 they could pull this off. That they were not stupid people. 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.160 These are skilled operatives with the long history of you know, 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.800 these kind of designs. And I think, um, that combined 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:07.920 with I mean, it was a perfect storm of a 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.520 lot of things. You know, there were flaws in the 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:14.720 Clinton campaign. I think people underestimated, you know, how widely 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.760 she was disliked. Um. But yeah, you know, the polls 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.880 were wrong. I never really trust polls. I don't trust 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.320 polls now. I think polls are used to construct narratives 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.760 by people who are savvy at manipulating the media. They're 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:32.200 used to tell people that things are popular even when 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:35.600 they're not. And from that, you know, actual popularity grows 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.360 because people feel like it's acceptable to like this thing. 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.560 It's acceptable to like Trump, to like a white supremacist, 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.640 to like a big etcetera, etcetera. It opens, uh you 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.880 know that that Overton window, and then our country gets 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.400 defonstrated through it. But uh yeah, anyway, Okay, I want 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:57.280 to get back. I want to get Okay, we have 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:01.640 endless debates. It looks like Warren's leader. People start to vote, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.520 and Bernie Sanders is doing extremely well and Biden is 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:10.439 doing poorly. Needless to say, going back to the d 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.520 n C is clueless and out of touch with their constituents. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.840 But as a voracious reader of the New York Times, 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.679 in the Washington Post as well as the Wall Street Journal, 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.160 it seemed to me there was a concerted campaign in 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:30.639 the media to make sure that Bernie did not win. Okay, 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.000 and then it seemed to me there was a plot 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:37.200 has too many negative connotations, but there was a decision, Okay, 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.840 Bernie is doing so well that we're gonna get all 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.240 the other candidates to drop out. Well, only have Biden 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.239 South Carolina, and we'll give it to him. What's your 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.440 viewpoint on what happened with Bernie? Yeah, I mean, I 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.359 I do think that there was a plan, um that 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.600 there was, you know, a concerted action from more centrist 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.159 Democrats to prevent Bernie from getting the nomination. And I 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.600 think there is a move in the media against both 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.840 Bernie and Warren. You know, there would be polls for examples, 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:07.680 is a use of them? Is something other than a 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.760 actual measuring tool where they'd say, who are you going 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:11.800 to vote for? They would just leave her out, you know, 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:15.320 they're trying to make her candidacy vanish. And then yeah, 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.560 you know, Biden won South Carolina. You know, I think 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.040 he won it legitimately. But after that it was like 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.680 centrist vultron assembled, where you had all the other candidates 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.359 dropping out at once and throwing their support to Biden. 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.840 And that's what secured the nomination for Biden on Super Tuesday. 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.080 And what concerns me, you know, isn't so much. Um, 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:36.760 I mean, they're there are things that concerned me beyond 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.159 just Biden being the candidate. But the Democrats, you know, 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:44.960 don't seem to feel obligated to recognize the widespread support 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.720 people have for the policies um that are endorsed by 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:53.000 Sanders and Warren, especially economically, even though coronavirus is happening. 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.720 I think Biden might be more receptive to these policies. 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:58.080 I don't think the d n C is and I 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.760 think that the leaders ship of the Democratic Party, people 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:06.400 like Pelosi and Schumer, have been incredibly timid and bad 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:11.119 at fighting Trump, at realizing that they're up against an autocrat, 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.440 they're up against a mafia state. They have not been 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.679 you know, taking them on with the urgency that's necessary. 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:19.879 And so all of that makes me worry because I 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:24.040 do at least feel that Bernie and certainly Warren recognize 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.600 that we're in a crisis and that's going to be 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.359 very difficult to get us out of that, economically, politically, 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:34.360 and in every other respect. Let's go back to needless 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:36.800 to say, the New York Times it was weird. You know, 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:38.560 they had that meter on the front page of the 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.920 paper and online, and literally, as I'm watching the results, 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.720 you watch the meter go in the other direction. Then 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:49.359 became an era of self flagellation, okay, which the left 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:53.080 wing narrative at this point in time is twofold. They 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.440 say it's white nationalism, and then they say, let's look 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.800 at the numbers. In reality, the upper middle class were 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:04.520 the voting for Trump. My question is to what degree 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.560 is globalization an issue? Now? One of the problems I 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.440 have with globalization is that every says, yeah, bring the 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:12.480 jobs back home, but they don't want to pay two 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:17.000 thousand dollars for a flat screen. Okay, And I believe 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:22.360 globalization is inevitable without going down that path, my point 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.359 being that one thing is clear. We did not take 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:29.920 care of the people who lost during globalization. So the 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:33.840 fact that people were screwed by globalization, to what degree 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:37.520 them wanting to put a spanner in the works was 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.960 a factor in Trump's victory. I think it was a 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.240 factor in just a general sense of disillusionment that you 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.320 see across the political spectrum, and it was there before. 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.720 I think that Trump is very good into tapping into that. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.000 You know, he's like a vulture that praise on people's pain. 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:58.240 And I remember that. I remember during the campaign. Um, 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:00.280 I think at that point, you know, my has been 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:02.560 had been out of work for a long time, you know, 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.800 or he was actually working multiple minimum wage jobs. I was, 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.359 you know, struggling to get by take care of the kids. 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.879 And Trump comes along and announces that there's actually forty 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.159 five percent unemployment, you know, under Obama, and all the 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.280 pundits start laughing and they're like, my god, what an idiot, Like, 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.800 who's going to believe that? And I was like, you know, consciously, 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.080 of course, like I know that that's not true. I 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.919 know that it's not you know, technically after the country 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.359 is unemployed, but it felt like that was the case 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.320 because people are struggling, because people can't pay their bills, 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.120 because they're working gig jobs, they're you know, working these 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:40.040 side hustles, and they can't get by. Trump in reality, 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.960 you know, couldn't give a shift if people survive. He's 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:45.320 not looking out for their welfare, but he's at least 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.280 aware of that suffering and how he could exploit it. 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.200 On the other end, you know, you had Bernie who 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:53.720 also recognized it and did have ideas and how to 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:56.879 fix it. And then you had Hillary who gradually began 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:00.119 to recognize that everybody was not so happy un or 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:04.720 the Obama administration, especially younger people economically, uh, and she 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:06.919 began to kind of you know, turn her campaign in 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:09.399 that direction and ultimately did so, which I thought was 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:13.320 a good move on her part, But yeah, you know, 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:15.639 it was a mess. And I think people are worried 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.840 not just about globalization, but about automation and with coronavirus. 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.560 I'm very worried about that because there are all these 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:26.080 jobs that I think people will say, for safety reasons 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.840 need to be replaced by, you know, robots, basically any 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.720 kind of like cashier position something like that. I don't 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.000 know where all those people who need those jobs to 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:38.439 survive economically are going to go if that kind of 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:41.000 decision is made, because I don't feel like like anyone 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:50.200 in the government is really looking out for them. Another 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.159 criticism of the left is that it is too is 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.640 become an elite like the traditional Republican and doesn't care 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:02.800 and has contempt for lower economic people. The other thing being, 0:23:02.800 --> 0:23:05.320 when I grew up, there was not this level of 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.960 income inequality in the fifties and sixties and up into 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:13.359 the mid seventies, certainly, but if you were rich, uh, 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:16.679 you had inherited the money. Where is today? Most of 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.399 the very wealthy people earn the money, and they worked 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.639 very hard to earn the money, but they've got no 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:26.200 time for the people hooked on I'm talking about people 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:27.639 on the left. Forget the people on the right. They 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:29.720 got no time. For the people on opioids, they got 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:34.040 no time. And I think those people recognize that contempt. 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:38.800 I I think that's true. I mean I recognize that contempt. 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.840 You know, I've been the subject of that contempt. You know, 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:45.919 despite having a good education, um and whatnot. You know, 0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:50.680 it's frustrating, like they they seem to want to be idolized. 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:54.240 There's this cult of personality thing that's been forming. I 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:56.320 think Trump made it a lot worse because he really 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:59.040 does want natural cult to surround him. But you know, 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:03.399 when I makeicisms of people like Pelosi or Schumer, I 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:06.400 get bombarded um with you know, how dare you critique 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:09.080 our our side or critique this or that. And I'm like, 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:12.360 that's literally why they're there, Like this is a representative government. 0:24:12.600 --> 0:24:15.360 These are public servants. They're supposed to be doing their job. 0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:19.000 I'm not hurling at hominem comments. I'm not saying anything 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:21.280 that's you know, honestly all that harsh. I'm saying, you know, 0:24:21.280 --> 0:24:24.040 you're screwing up at your job, and you're jeopardizing my 0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:26.679 life and my country's future as a result of it. 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:29.600 But yeah, there's there's a timidity there. I think that 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:35.040 people have stopped expecting uh, public servants, expecting elected officials 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:38.480 to do their jobs competently, to represent them, to stand 0:24:38.520 --> 0:24:41.000 up with people who don't have much, you know, are 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:44.520 just struggling to survive. They they've lost that, and I think, 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:47.080 you know, for people younger than me, they've never even 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:49.480 seen it an action in their lives. I mean, that's 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:52.960 why Warren's campaign fell almost shocking to me, because she 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:55.960 was addressing those issues and she had these very detailed 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.240 plans and I could see how they would be carried 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.560 out in action, and I'm like, oh my god, you know, 0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:03.480 I mean it's almost overwhelming to read all that. And 0:25:03.520 --> 0:25:05.800 of course, um, you know, she didn't win, and that's 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:07.320 that's too bad, because I think she would have been 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:10.480 a great president. But um, it's a it's a very 0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:14.040 frustrating thing because I do think they care about their donors. Uh, 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:17.399 they are in their bubble um and they're not you know, 0:25:17.600 --> 0:25:22.840 on the ground even aware of what's happening to ordinary Americans. Okay, 0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:26.520 as someone who follows is closely certainly not a scientific expert. 0:25:26.920 --> 0:25:32.480 As I was describing him my shrink, it's just raw insanity. Okay, 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:35.679 But yesterday, and Lord only knows what will happen before 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:41.160 these airs, it truly took another leap. Okay, with Friday, 0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:44.200 we had the firing of the inspector, which was insane. 0:25:44.760 --> 0:25:49.679 But Trump taking the chlora queen, I mean put that 0:25:49.760 --> 0:25:52.480 in context for the rest of us. Oh, I mean, 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:55.520 this is like the second time he's told Americans to 0:25:55.560 --> 0:25:59.880 take a potentially dangerous such a substance to cure coronavirus. 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:02.639 The first time around it was drink bleach. So I 0:26:02.640 --> 0:26:05.800 guess there's been a you know, an improvement. Honestly, um, 0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:07.560 you know, I usually don't buy the whole it's a 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:10.159 distraction thing from Trump because I think it's important to 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.160 examine everything. It's important to look at what he's doing 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:15.359 behind the scenes, and it's important to look at, you know, 0:26:15.400 --> 0:26:18.320 what kind of propaganda narrative he puts forward. But as 0:26:18.359 --> 0:26:20.840 I say in the book, he tries to hide crime 0:26:20.920 --> 0:26:23.720 with scandal. And so while I would look at, you know, one, 0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:27.960 the irresponsibility of recommending a drug that could potentially kill you, 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:31.560 there's that there's probably a short term kind of profit 0:26:31.640 --> 0:26:34.800 margin for him, since he seems to have investment in 0:26:34.840 --> 0:26:37.640 the company that produces a drug. But I'm more worried 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:42.920 about the complete chaos and the apathy toward Americans suffering 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:47.560 an American death demonstrated by this administration. Because as people 0:26:47.600 --> 0:26:50.760 are panicked, as people are going through the worst economic 0:26:50.920 --> 0:26:53.520 crisis of our lives, as they're wondering if they're going 0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:56.160 to get this you know, fatal disease that that many 0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:59.560 don't understand how it works. Uh, they're capitalizing on that. 0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:03.720 They're wording medical equipment, They're making the situation worse. Um. 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:06.600 And I think that, you know, that is a way 0:27:06.600 --> 0:27:09.439 that Trump has personally behaved his whole life. You know, 0:27:09.480 --> 0:27:12.439 when nine eleven happened, his gut reaction was, now my 0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:17.560 buildings look taller during any financial crisis two thousand eight, 0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:20.080 he was like, this is fantastic. Now people like me 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:22.840 can make more money. You know, he's a disaster capitalist. 0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:25.960 He's a corporate raider. He was trained, you know by 0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:29.159 New York Wall Street corporate raiders like Carl Icon to 0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:32.760 carry out this kind of uh, you know, loot and redistribute, 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:35.359 destroy this, and then you know, sell it off for parts. 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:37.840 That's what he wants to do to the United States, 0:27:38.040 --> 0:27:40.360 and I think he does not want us looking at that. 0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:44.159 He'd rather have us you know, talking about his irresponsible 0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.679 snake oil peddling than about the fact that he's you know, 0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:52.120 looting the country essentially and also not helping Americans, uh, 0:27:52.160 --> 0:27:55.280 you know, during a massive public health crisis. But in 0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:59.200 this particular time, he is actually doing just like he's 0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:02.040 not wearing a mask, he's actually taking the drug. Even 0:28:02.080 --> 0:28:05.360 Neil Cavudo, I'm sure they're slapping him today, came out 0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:10.720 against it. Uh. You know, if the Russian goal is 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:15.040 just to create chaos so people tune out, does because 0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:20.400 this speaks to row credibilities just insanity? Okay, So does 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:24.200 this just demonstrate how the government has no credibility? Does 0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:27.720 this actually work for him? Does it make people detach? 0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:32.480 I don't know what exactly he's trying to accomplish with 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:35.960 the I don't even how to pronounce the hydraulic queen um. 0:28:36.000 --> 0:28:37.919 You know. I do think that it's somewhat of a 0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:40.920 distraction thing because there are very serious things, you know, 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:44.360 going on in the government, both with economically but also 0:28:44.400 --> 0:28:47.240 things Pompeio is getting up to bars, getting up to 0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:50.360 I don't think that the intent is just to cause chaos. 0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:53.560 There is something weird about Trump, um, which is that 0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:56.880 he's a lifelong germophobe. You know. You could read articles 0:28:56.920 --> 0:29:00.360 about him going back about over three decades saying how 0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:03.960 he compulsively washes his hands, he won't shake hands, he's 0:29:04.080 --> 0:29:06.880 terrified of getting a terrible virus. In one article, it's 0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:10.920 even named as coronavirus. There's an article from seventeen, i think, 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:14.280 in Politico called the pure Le Presidency, and it's about 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:17.480 he forced everyone around him to use perel to keep 0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:22.120 off germs. Suddenly an actual pandemic emerges, a very contagious one, 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:26.760 and he's running around shaking everyone's hand, sharing microphones, you know, 0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:29.840 disobeying all these rules, refusing to wear a mask. It's 0:29:30.080 --> 0:29:34.640 very weird because he's acting like he's immune or that 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:37.120 at the least someone has told him that he is 0:29:37.160 --> 0:29:40.440 immune to this virus, despite being in a target demographic 0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:42.880 of men over seventy years old, you know, very very 0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:45.560 likely to get it and to be severely affected. So 0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:48.360 I have found that strange from the moment I heard 0:29:48.360 --> 0:29:51.080 about the virus back in January, and it only gets 0:29:51.080 --> 0:29:55.040 weirder when he's recommending this drug that doctors and scientists 0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:58.080 say doesn't actually work as a treatment. So I don't 0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:00.880 know whether he believes it, or whether they're something else 0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:03.680 going on or or what um. But I do think 0:30:03.680 --> 0:30:07.760 the entire medical situation with him is bizarre. Well, certainly 0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:10.800 this drug can have negative consequences speaking to the heart. 0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:17.320 But from my viewpoint, the right defines the debate and 0:30:17.360 --> 0:30:21.000 the left reacts, why do you believe that is? And 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:23.920 could there be a u turn such at the left 0:30:23.920 --> 0:30:27.880 defines a debate. It's a very frustrating thing. There's a 0:30:27.880 --> 0:30:30.640 tendency in the life to just not speak bluntly about 0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:32.520 any of this. You know, they won't call lie a 0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:35.560 lie or a crime a crime. It shouldn't be easy, 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:39.080 I mean, it shouldn't be difficult to criticize Donald Trump. 0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:40.480 You know, it gives you a lot of material to 0:30:40.520 --> 0:30:43.480 work with. I think some of the hesitancy comes from 0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:47.320 this both sides style of journalism that's been, you know, 0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:50.760 very popular over the last twenty years, where Trump is like, 0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:53.480 you know, I want a new hurricane, and they're just like, oh, 0:30:53.560 --> 0:30:55.320 will it work? Will it not? You know, instead of 0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:58.760 just addressing the issue as a a sign of a 0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:01.760 great threat now national security. We see that's not just 0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:04.320 with Trump, but things like climate change, and it causes 0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:08.640 incredible damage when people refuse to acknowledge a blatant threat. 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:11.880 I think that this elitism in the media is one 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:15.480 of the causes of this. I think that the media 0:31:15.600 --> 0:31:20.560 and our political culture and these overlapping circles have become, 0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:25.680 you know, dominated by people from very wealthy backgrounds, from 0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:29.680 you know, sort of very very narrow geographic focus. There 0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:33.120 have been all these credentials now required, all these prerequisites 0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:35.320 to get your foot in the door, and that means 0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:39.440 that they're reluctant to report on each other. Honestly, you know, 0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:42.760 they want to keep this illusion going. They don't want 0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:46.720 to out people like Ivanka and Jared as grifters when 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:49.640 those are their sources. And they're just thinking of things like, 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:53.680 you know, access and prestige and reputation and of themselves. 0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:56.200 You know, they're not thinking about the country. They're not 0:31:56.280 --> 0:31:59.600 thinking about how does this affect ordinary Americans. They're thinking 0:31:59.640 --> 0:32:03.240 about their selves and their insular little world. And that 0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:06.280 applies to the Trump camp and to the people working 0:32:06.280 --> 0:32:09.280 at Fox News and it applies to people working at 0:32:09.320 --> 0:32:12.320 the New York Times and other allegedly liberal outlets. It's 0:32:12.360 --> 0:32:16.680 just a failure to value truth, to value honesty, um, 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:19.680 and to just you know, tell people what's actually going on, 0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:22.760 and you know, tell it like it is. I went 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:26.240 to the Holocaust Museum in Los Angeles a year ago, 0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:30.000 and I was stunned that they had the reprints of 0:32:30.000 --> 0:32:34.080 all the papers, that the information was there and no 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:37.920 one acted. Now, we can certainly talk about degree quantity 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:40.880 and whether they avoid certain nooks and crannies, but there 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:45.560 is a lot of information that has been printed. Now. 0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:50.600 Although one of the critics said when Trump got elected 0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:54.360 that the uh on NPR that the press should take 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:59.600 a viewpoint, which they haven't. Okay, you say something fascinating 0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:02.400 as time I heard anybody else say this, that we 0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:04.960 all have a feeling as we're living our regular lots, 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:08.080 that there's somebody out there, there's somebody who's going to 0:33:08.200 --> 0:33:11.880 take care of it. And you say there isn't. Okay, 0:33:11.960 --> 0:33:17.280 So what can be done about truly blowing the whistle 0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:20.600 on this all insanity in our country? Yeah, it's a 0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:23.600 very frustrating thing. You know. I think the scariest part 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:25.720 of my book is the fact that there's like thirty 0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:28.400 pages of end notes from all the other reporting that 0:33:28.480 --> 0:33:31.160 has been done on all these massive crimes being carried 0:33:31.160 --> 0:33:33.800 out by Trump and other members of this administration. You know, 0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:36.120 as is in the title, it's in plain sight, and 0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:39.440 it's the failure to act that's been very frustrating. Everyone 0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:42.160 thinks somebody else is going to swoop in and save us, 0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:44.800 or they think, Okay, you know, if this is really 0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:47.640 so bad, if this is really so dangerous, people would 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:51.080 be behaving differently. They'd be acting with urgency, they'd be 0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:55.120 speaking out strongly. But they don't um and that's unfortunately, 0:33:55.200 --> 0:33:59.720 very typical when a democracy transitions into an autocracy. That's 0:33:59.760 --> 0:34:03.080 why newspapers of the nineteen thirties, you know, leading up 0:34:03.400 --> 0:34:06.960 to the time of Hitler's domination, World War two, the Holocaust, 0:34:07.200 --> 0:34:10.240 you will see similar styles of articles. You'll see puff 0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:13.680 pieces on Hitler and on the Third Reich that resemble 0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:16.880 the kind written about the Trump administration, where people just 0:34:16.960 --> 0:34:19.200 refuse to see what's right in front of them. They 0:34:19.239 --> 0:34:22.600 refused to see cruelty or evil or to acknowledge it 0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:25.640 as such. They're they're afraid of being seemed as alarmist 0:34:25.880 --> 0:34:28.520 or as hysterical. But I think that you really need 0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:31.920 to error on the side of caution here, especially because 0:34:31.960 --> 0:34:34.640 there is such a historical precedent for this. And I 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:38.320 don't just mean Nazi Germany, but you know, looking at Milosovich, 0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:41.799 at put In, at anybody who's risen to power, the 0:34:41.880 --> 0:34:44.920 path is very similar to Trump. It's easy to predict. 0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:47.759 You know, it's the dictator's playbook, and we're watching it 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:52.240 play out in a kind of American pop culture infotainment 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:54.719 kind of way, you know, a tabloid kind of way 0:34:54.760 --> 0:34:57.000 that I think people don't recognize it because they think 0:34:57.040 --> 0:35:00.319 autocracy means like tanks appear on the street. They don't 0:35:00.360 --> 0:35:03.320 understand that a very American root autocracy is to have 0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:07.480 a reality TV star inhabiting the White House and deceiving 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:10.759 people and you know, using is considerable media spin and 0:35:11.080 --> 0:35:17.680 propaganda skills to get this horrific agenda accomplished. Let's one 0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:19.879 thing we know about Trump, as I stated previously, he's 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:25.920 really not that intelligent. However, the Republicans in Congress and 0:35:25.960 --> 0:35:28.760 pretty much are a few, you know, never Trump people, 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:32.920 but they don't have that much traction. So these people 0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:35.160 look at the impeachment et cetera. They all line up 0:35:35.520 --> 0:35:39.640 behind Trump. Let's just say, for this sacred to me discussion, 0:35:39.920 --> 0:35:42.120 you know, Trump gets hit by a car tonight dies, 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:48.000 what will perpetuate the autocracy? I think that well, Trump's 0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:50.960 skill always is to keep it in the family, and 0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:53.360 the fact that Jared and Ivanka are in the White 0:35:53.360 --> 0:35:56.400 House should have been just a giant red flag that 0:35:56.480 --> 0:35:59.560 this is an aspiring autocrat. This is a colectocrat, you know, 0:35:59.560 --> 0:36:02.280 who need to keep the money flowing through the family. 0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:05.000 The cryme flowing through the family. That's what he wants. 0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:08.200 I don't think that the GOP as a whole is 0:36:08.200 --> 0:36:12.320 that enamored of them, but they'll certainly try to take power. Technically, 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:14.720 I guess the reigns of power will go to Mike Pence. 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.600 But I think the Republicans have seen Trump as a 0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:21.360 vehicle for desires that they've had and have been honing 0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:23.960 for decades. You know, he didn't come out of nowhere 0:36:24.080 --> 0:36:26.680 like on one hand, you have you know, the foreign 0:36:26.719 --> 0:36:29.920 aspect of this, where not just Russia, but Russia, Israel, 0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:33.640 Saudi Arabia, all of these different countries realized that Trump 0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:36.440 has no baseline loyalty to the United States, and so 0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:39.200 it's pretty easy to get him to do things that 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:42.200 are damaging to the United States and beneficial to them. 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:45.279 The Republicans see it as a way where, you know, 0:36:45.320 --> 0:36:47.920 as I think, as Grover Norquist said, you can drown 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:50.879 government in a bathtub. That that's what they want to do. 0:36:50.920 --> 0:36:55.200 They want to have this libertarian or ultra libertarian agenda 0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:58.920 where you just basically don't have government, you dismantle it. 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:02.400 It's everybody for them selves. You let the poor suffer 0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:06.319 and starve. There's a you know, white supremacist aspect to it. 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:09.040 That's that's pretty blatant. Um. You're seeing all of that 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:11.360 play out with the coronavirus, by the way, because it 0:37:11.680 --> 0:37:16.000 is disproportionately black and Native American communities getting hit by it. 0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:18.240 And if that weren't the case, um, you know, maybe 0:37:18.320 --> 0:37:21.200 they would be more assertive at combating it, but not 0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:24.120 necessarily because I don't think that the Trump administration cares 0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:27.400 about poor white people either. Um. You know, there's a 0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:31.319 genocidal quality to it. So if he were gone, the 0:37:31.360 --> 0:37:35.520 same tendencies would continue because so many people have managed 0:37:35.560 --> 0:37:39.600 to you know, pack the courts purge agencies, get money, 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:43.520 get power, violate, and then rewrite the rules. They're not 0:37:43.560 --> 0:37:45.719 going to give up that opportunity. They're going to hang 0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:48.319 on to that power, you know, with all they've got. Okay, 0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:50.960 let's go back to you. You're from Connecticut. And for 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:53.840 those people who well, first of all, it's on Wikipedia whatever, 0:37:54.040 --> 0:37:57.440 and you're forty two. So for forty one, there's some 0:37:57.480 --> 0:37:59.960 stuff in that Wikipedia page where I was like, wait, 0:38:00.000 --> 0:38:03.400 old mind, now I'll be forty two later in the year. Um, 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:06.880 but yeah, I'm from Meridan, Connecticut. They got that part right. Um, 0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:08.799 you know most of it, most of it's correct. Fit 0:38:09.400 --> 0:38:12.640 I didn't got the authority here on it. So how 0:38:12.680 --> 0:38:14.880 many kids in your family? I have a younger sister, 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:18.560 younger sister, what's her life look like. She lives in Texas, 0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:21.960 she's married. Uh, you know, she's got two kids of 0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:24.839 her own. Uh you know right now. I mean her 0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:26.879 her life is just taking care of the kids who 0:38:26.880 --> 0:38:29.320 are home from school because we're living through a pandemic. 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:32.600 So okay, so your parents, how many generations was your 0:38:32.640 --> 0:38:36.520 family in America? Uh? My great grandparents were the ones 0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:41.360 who came from Poland. From Poland on both sides. Uh, yeah, 0:38:41.480 --> 0:38:44.360 Poland and you know, a couple other Eastern European countries 0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:46.920 thrown in, but mostly Poland. So how did your parents 0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:50.799 meet in Meriden? Like everyone's from Meridin. I'm the one 0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:54.440 who left. You know, my grandparents also grew up in Meridin. 0:38:55.080 --> 0:38:57.839 Before that, I think, you know, the great grandparents lived 0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:01.160 in New Britain, you know New Britsky, um in the 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:04.239 Middletown and you know, places near Meridan. So that was 0:39:04.280 --> 0:39:07.040 those the big adventurers going from there to Meridan. Uh, 0:39:07.080 --> 0:39:09.319 they're not the most adventurous family. Like I was sort 0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:10.960 of the odd one out and that you know, I 0:39:11.000 --> 0:39:13.760 liked to travel. Uh, you know, I like to move around. 0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:16.680 I was much more of a restless person. But yeah, 0:39:16.760 --> 0:39:19.120 you know, my parents met each other in middle school. Uh, 0:39:19.239 --> 0:39:22.080 started dating in high school. And I've been together for like, 0:39:22.360 --> 0:39:24.960 I don't know, fifty years. And people are like, you know, 0:39:25.000 --> 0:39:27.279 what's the secret to your marriage? My mom says like 0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:32.960 inertia and propinquity or something. It's not not so romantic, 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:35.759 but you know they are together. So and what did 0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:38.600 they do for a living. My mom was an English 0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:41.440 teacher at the one of the public schools in Meridin, 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:45.760 and my dad was first the corporation council for Meridin, 0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:48.440 like the city attorney kind of, and then late in 0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:52.759 life became the city manager for Meridin, like before his retirement. 0:39:52.800 --> 0:39:55.160 He kind of he went in to fill in for somebody. 0:39:55.280 --> 0:39:57.239 I mean, this is long after I left home, so 0:39:57.239 --> 0:39:59.600 I don't completely know happened, and then ended up just 0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:02.600 stay there for about eight years until he was hired. 0:40:03.000 --> 0:40:05.880 So he is an attorney, yeah, yeah, yeah, well he 0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:07.839 has a law degree, but he ended up going into 0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:10.319 city management. I have a law degree to it. It's 0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:12.640 like I'm not practicing. Oh yeah, the year in the 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:15.840 music industry. I'd be glad to tell you my story, 0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:17.160 But I grew up at first of all, I grew 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:20.520 up in a completely different era where everybody wanted their 0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:24.280 kid to be a lawyer or a doctor. I know people. 0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:26.160 I was talking to a friend of mine. He's got 0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:28.160 a friend who I know pretty well myself was a 0:40:28.200 --> 0:40:32.239 doctor and he said his sixties. Now, when he first 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:34.239 got out a medical school, he was making two hundred 0:40:34.239 --> 0:40:38.080 and forty grand. Today he's making two hundred and forty grand. Okay, 0:40:38.560 --> 0:40:40.759 so it used to be your upper class and not 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:42.600 to tell you know, they're certainly surgeons of making a 0:40:42.640 --> 0:40:45.399 million dollars a year. That's not my point. But your 0:40:45.480 --> 0:40:49.080 parents wanted you to work hard to make sure that 0:40:49.320 --> 0:40:53.720 you know, you could feed yourself, do things, etcetera. Unfortunately, 0:40:53.800 --> 0:40:56.120 what they were unaware of they had hard lives through 0:40:56.320 --> 0:40:59.040 during the Depression. We grew up in the sixties, which 0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:03.000 was all about you know, the uh. The Army stole 0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:06.160 our slogan, you know, be all you can be, okay, 0:41:06.280 --> 0:41:10.320 And my mother is a real cultural vulture. So after college, 0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:12.200 I was a starving freestyle skier and I got the 0:41:12.239 --> 0:41:15.960 world's worst case of mononucleosis. And I went to law 0:41:16.000 --> 0:41:18.560 school and I would have dropped up, but I used 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:20.560 to tell people all the time it was the worst 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:23.080 year in the history of skiing in Utah, which no 0:41:23.120 --> 0:41:26.040 one knew until two thousand eleven and twelve. It was 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:28.640 also bad, and they had the statistics. So I went 0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:30.480 through law school. If I go through law school, I'm 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:32.440 gonna take the bar and pass it. Otherwise you know 0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:35.319 why I burned three years. But I never had an 0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:38.200 intention of practice law. I did a little bit, remember 0:41:38.200 --> 0:41:41.279 going to court once because my boss had o c 0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:44.160 D and couldn't drive on the freeway, and I got 0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:47.160 the temporary ruling overturns and I said, I never have 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:49.480 to go again. But I always wanted to be in 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:53.000 the music business. And this is important only because music 0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:56.320 drove the culture in the sixties and seventies. And there's 0:41:56.440 --> 0:42:01.960 one canard which drives me crazy. Is that okay, and 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:04.600 this isn't all fields. Everything is the same. You're just 0:42:04.640 --> 0:42:07.800 too old. You don't get it. Music is a big business, 0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:10.680 but it is not the driver of the culture the 0:42:10.719 --> 0:42:12.920 way it was in the sixties and seventies. I say 0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:14.360 the same thing about tech, and they're starting to be 0:42:14.440 --> 0:42:20.480 a turn from to tech. Was everything drove the culture. 0:42:20.840 --> 0:42:22.919 I don't hear people dropping out saying, oh, I'm gonna 0:42:22.960 --> 0:42:25.719 I'm gonna write an app today. Okay, but I think 0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:29.160 there's a backlash against tech. But people are invested in 0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:34.000 the past. But you're growing up in the eighties and nineties. 0:42:34.480 --> 0:42:38.359 You go to public school. Did you fit in? Were 0:42:38.360 --> 0:42:41.440 you popular? Were you No? No? I was like like 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:44.120 a nerd with an attitude problem. So you know, it's 0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:47.320 think the worst of all worlds, right, you know, grades wise, 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:50.880 I did fine, But you know, I was bored. I 0:42:50.960 --> 0:42:53.960 was restless. Uh you know, I was a big music fan. 0:42:54.160 --> 0:42:57.239 I was like big Guns and Roses fan. I heard 0:42:57.280 --> 0:42:59.399 you were I heard you were a metal head. Oh 0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:02.000 yeah yeah. I mean it was funny because today, um, 0:43:02.400 --> 0:43:04.680 Alex Skolnik from Test of It was like, oh, I 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:06.960 saw that you were in the Pop Upsets letter. I 0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:08.480 was like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna be on the show. 0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:10.600 And he's like, that's great. Yeah. He interviewed me too. 0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:14.080 And you know, Decibel wrote a profile on me, and 0:43:14.120 --> 0:43:16.120 that's fine. I like all kinds of music. It's not 0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:19.000 just metal. You know, my tastes are pretty broad. But um, 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:21.080 you know, I was a piano player and a guitar 0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:24.440 player and you know, not that great musician. But I 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:27.000 always loved music, Um, and it was important to me, 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:30.160 and I think even back then, music drove the culture. Certainly, 0:43:30.280 --> 0:43:33.239 MTV drove the culture for my generation, and it was 0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:36.160 very weird to me when they stopped playing videos and 0:43:36.160 --> 0:43:39.120 when FM radio kind of ceased to have meaning. And 0:43:39.160 --> 0:43:41.720 I was in college during Napster, so obviously I enjoyed 0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:45.319 that you know, Napster free ride experience, but um, you know, 0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:48.520 music and journalists and began to overlap quite a bit 0:43:48.719 --> 0:43:52.240 because everyone was expected to work for exposure and everybody 0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:54.719 was getting you know, their content you know, kind of 0:43:54.719 --> 0:43:58.279 stolen or you know, was having difficulty finding opportunities in 0:43:58.320 --> 0:44:01.240 their fields. And I think that that created a culture 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:04.240 of conformity. And I don't think that that's the whole culture, 0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:06.400 but the sort of people who rise to the top 0:44:06.600 --> 0:44:09.600 a lot of the times are the people who will embrace, uh, 0:44:09.640 --> 0:44:13.959 you know what a shrinking industry demands of you, which 0:44:13.960 --> 0:44:17.040 doesn't always produce, you know, the highest quality, or it 0:44:17.320 --> 0:44:21.200 doesn't allow a lot of space for unconventional people to 0:44:21.280 --> 0:44:23.960 be able to financially survive. And so I just look 0:44:24.000 --> 0:44:26.400 at the sixties and seventies where there's all this you know, 0:44:26.880 --> 0:44:30.680 political turmoil, you know, a pretty horrible time politically, but 0:44:30.719 --> 0:44:33.000 at least there was music and you know in movies, 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:36.239 like a great, great pop culture. So I get kind 0:44:36.239 --> 0:44:38.040 of jels of that, you know. I was looking at 0:44:38.080 --> 0:44:41.120 like the Watergate Watergate hearings and thinking about the albums 0:44:41.160 --> 0:44:42.840 that came out in those years, and I was like, wow, 0:44:42.880 --> 0:44:46.160 like what incredible comfort in that time. Whereas I mean 0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:48.040 I do like, you know, bands that are out now 0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:50.839 I'm not completely dismissive of it by any means, but 0:44:51.200 --> 0:44:54.280 it isn't that driving force. There isn't that that feeling 0:44:54.320 --> 0:44:57.439 of being part of something bigger, you know, something that 0:44:57.440 --> 0:45:00.759 that like gets your soul, I think, and maybe the 0:45:00.760 --> 0:45:03.520 way there was back then. What's your favorite guns and Roses? Long? 0:45:04.360 --> 0:45:06.799 Oh god, that's so hard to pick because I think 0:45:06.800 --> 0:45:09.040 of Appetite is kind of its own thing, and then 0:45:09.120 --> 0:45:11.080 you know, there I have. I have, like everybody have 0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:14.200 a mix tape of the Illusion albums combined, right, I 0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:18.359 can't read of some of the lesser tracks. Um gosh, 0:45:18.680 --> 0:45:21.520 you know that's uh. I mean it goes by my 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:25.879 sometimes Rocket Queens sometimes it's so easy. Sometimes you could 0:45:25.880 --> 0:45:28.280 be mine. But also I don't know. I like Rocket 0:45:28.320 --> 0:45:30.759 Queen because it goes through the whole, like through all 0:45:30.800 --> 0:45:34.360 the emotions. You know that that you can experience that 0:45:34.360 --> 0:45:36.480 that the band puts forward, you know, where they have 0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:38.920 that coda and they go out like that. I just 0:45:38.960 --> 0:45:42.719 think it's an interesting constructed song. Well, I think Appetite 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:45.480 is certainly the best piece of work they did. My 0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:49.120 favorite would be Paradise City and it's a great video. Whatever. 0:45:49.480 --> 0:45:52.960 I'm a big busy fan and Dustin Bones and use 0:45:53.040 --> 0:45:55.759 your illusion one which begs the question did you go 0:45:55.880 --> 0:45:59.279 to see the reunion tour? Of course, like, oh my god, yeah, 0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:01.239 I was so excited. Well, first of all, I've had 0:46:01.239 --> 0:46:03.600 this feeling it basically since Trump won, Like am I 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:06.120 living in a simulation? Or you know, it's is this 0:46:06.280 --> 0:46:08.640 the apocalypse? And I'm in purgatory? And then when G 0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.200 and R not only reunited but then went to Place St. Louis, 0:46:12.239 --> 0:46:14.640 whereas you probably know, they were banned, uh, you know 0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:18.360 because of the riverport right, I got tickets immediately, and 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.640 I kept thinking, like Trump is gonna install full fascism 0:46:21.719 --> 0:46:23.640 before I get to see G and R. But that 0:46:23.719 --> 0:46:27.320 didn't happen, and so I saw them in July seventeen. 0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:30.600 Then I saw them over the summer, uh, Louder than life. 0:46:30.680 --> 0:46:32.640 And then one of the weirder things that happened is 0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:35.399 that Duff read my first book. He read The View 0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.120 from fly Over Country and really liked it, uh, and 0:46:38.200 --> 0:46:41.239 it helped inspire you know, his his album that he 0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:43.520 put out last year. And so that for me, I 0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:45.080 mean if you had asked me when I was twelve, 0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:47.560 like what would my dream be, it would be like 0:46:47.719 --> 0:46:51.480 seeing G and R writing a bestselling book inspiring gen R. 0:46:51.480 --> 0:46:53.040 I mean, like you can't really top that. But then 0:46:53.080 --> 0:46:55.440 someone would have had to say to me, like, well, also, 0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:57.520 Donald Trump is going to be the president and he's 0:46:57.520 --> 0:46:59.680 going to be a dictator, Like will you make this 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:02.920 right now? I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't. 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:05.279 I don't want to dictatorship. But it was kind of 0:47:05.320 --> 0:47:07.720 like I kind of five peaked now, like there's nowhere 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:11.960 to go but down from care. But traditionally, you know, 0:47:12.080 --> 0:47:14.759 in nineteen nine, when led Zeppelin one came out, that 0:47:14.840 --> 0:47:17.640 was considered heavy metal and Black Sabbath was too far 0:47:17.719 --> 0:47:23.000 out there. But certainly now more metal is its own genre. 0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:28.080 But even back then, people listen to that as anger 0:47:28.239 --> 0:47:31.040 at society. They felt misunderstood, and they could turn it 0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:33.080 up and create their own world. Would that be an 0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:36.720 apt description of you? Oh yeah, I mean I'm angry 0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:39.560 all the time, and I'm not apologetic about it. Like 0:47:39.640 --> 0:47:42.600 I think there's plenty to be angry over, and you know, 0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:45.000 I think there's there's an impulse just as a woman, 0:47:45.040 --> 0:47:47.160 you're not supposed to be angry, etcetera, etcetera. You know, 0:47:47.200 --> 0:47:49.839 people say you're shrill, you're whining whatever. But I think 0:47:49.880 --> 0:47:52.239 it's broader than that. I think everyone is kind of 0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:56.239 conditioned to not be angry, to not complain. Uh And 0:47:56.320 --> 0:47:57.799 you know, in my first book, and if you're from 0:47:57.800 --> 0:47:59.959 five our country, I have an essay called and defend 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:02.720 pense of complaining. And I think that anger, in many ways, 0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:05.520 it's a form of compassion. You know, It's it's looking 0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:08.480 out for other people. It's being angry on their behalf. 0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:11.120 You know, I'm off I'm also angry on my own behalf. 0:48:11.520 --> 0:48:13.480 But when I write, you know, I tried to think 0:48:13.480 --> 0:48:16.279 of other people, think of our society, um, you know, 0:48:16.320 --> 0:48:19.279 and as what's happening to it. But you know, I 0:48:19.280 --> 0:48:21.840 mean with with heavy melo, you'll get a variety of songs, 0:48:21.880 --> 0:48:24.880 and you know, some of them are more overtly political, 0:48:25.080 --> 0:48:27.280 you know, lyrically, and a lot of them just capture 0:48:27.280 --> 0:48:30.000 and emotion. And I'm in it for both, you know, 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.680 I'm in it for the feeling that it conjures, even 0:48:32.680 --> 0:48:35.000 if the lyrics have absolutely nothing to do, you know, 0:48:35.080 --> 0:48:37.919 with anything that's that's happening. But there's also I think, 0:48:38.000 --> 0:48:40.600 you know, great songs like I think Civil War by 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:42.799 guns and Roses, for example, is a great song in 0:48:42.840 --> 0:48:46.560 that genre. To what degree in your inbox or your 0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:50.560 incoming do you hear that you're too negative? Um? It 0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:52.719 depends from the people who agree with me. They think 0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:55.920 I'm I'm doing just fine. Um. I I used to 0:48:55.960 --> 0:48:58.680 get it more in the beginning of the Trump administration. 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:01.560 It wasn't so much negative. It was you know, pessimistic, 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:04.000 doom and gloom. And I'm like, look, you know I 0:49:04.000 --> 0:49:07.880 I spent my career studying authoritarian states. I don't want 0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:09.799 to be right. I mean that was something I think 0:49:09.800 --> 0:49:12.160 people failed to grasp, is that I wanted to be 0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:14.680 wrong about everything. I wanted to be wrong about all 0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:17.319 my predictions because you know, I'm a mom, Like I'm 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:20.640 I'm raising my own children in this society I'm living here. 0:49:20.760 --> 0:49:22.799 You know, I want my country to be a democracy. 0:49:22.880 --> 0:49:25.239 I want it to be free. Uh. And I saw 0:49:25.360 --> 0:49:29.160 basically a mafia state forming and it it paralleled both 0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:32.160 directly and you know in terms of how you know, 0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:36.000 governance was formed the really awful states that I had 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:38.080 been studying and that you know, I had worked with 0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:41.120 exiles and dissidence from. And I never took freedom of 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:43.840 speech for granted. I never took free media for granted, 0:49:44.000 --> 0:49:46.200 and I've always been worried that those things would go away. 0:49:46.320 --> 0:49:49.360 And I think people who weren't as familiar with world 0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:53.359 history or contemporary dictatorships, they just get thinking, well, this 0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:55.839 can't happen here, So why is she, you know, going 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:57.759 on and on about that, like as if it was 0:49:57.840 --> 0:50:00.640 like a stick or something. But it wasn't. Um, you know, 0:50:00.680 --> 0:50:02.640 it was a warning. And I wanted the warning to 0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:05.799 be heated, and I wanted officials to intervene, and I 0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:09.560 wanted them to make me wrong, and they didn't. Uh. 0:50:09.640 --> 0:50:12.240 You know, people have sat back and let this happen, 0:50:12.640 --> 0:50:16.080 you know, knowing full well what it is, or occasionally um, 0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:18.520 you know, sticking their heads in the sand. Uh, and 0:50:18.640 --> 0:50:22.040 you know, comforting themselves with denial. And I don't fall 0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:25.279 ordinary people for not fully understanding what's happening, because I 0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:27.360 think that they've been lied to quite a bit. I 0:50:27.440 --> 0:50:31.680 do fall our officials, whether you know, Mueller, Pelosi, Comy, 0:50:31.719 --> 0:50:35.400 anyone who could have you know, enforced accountability but chose 0:50:35.440 --> 0:50:38.160 to look the other way. So you gotta Sarah Lawrence, 0:50:38.160 --> 0:50:41.759 how's that experience? Sarah Lawrence in the late nineties. I 0:50:41.800 --> 0:50:44.840 mean it was weird. It was fine. It was a 0:50:44.920 --> 0:50:48.000 school that had small classes, a lot of emphasis on writing, 0:50:48.600 --> 0:50:50.440 very little emphasis on math. You know, w it's a 0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:53.320 very bad at So I was glad for that. Um 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:54.960 I kind of did my own thing. I mean, it's 0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:57.400 a weird thing because you you definitely have that class 0:50:57.480 --> 0:51:00.640 dynamic where like I was just do and stuff like 0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:03.399 renting a video and eating Chinese food in my dorm 0:51:03.480 --> 0:51:05.080 room and that would be like a big Friday night 0:51:05.120 --> 0:51:07.800 out for me. But a lot of really rich kids 0:51:07.840 --> 0:51:10.080 go to that school, and you know, they'd be doing 0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:12.800 all these expensive drugs or partying in New York City 0:51:12.880 --> 0:51:15.600 or so forth. It was an interesting time to have 0:51:15.680 --> 0:51:17.479 access to New York City. You know, it was about 0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:21.600 a half hour forty five minutes away, and I got familiar, um, 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:23.840 you know with New York tabloid culture, you know, to 0:51:23.920 --> 0:51:25.920 some degree. I always was like, as you know, if 0:51:25.960 --> 0:51:27.759 you grew up in Connecticut, you get a lot of 0:51:27.760 --> 0:51:29.759 New York media pumped into your home, and so you 0:51:29.800 --> 0:51:32.719 get to learn about people like Donald Trump from your 0:51:32.719 --> 0:51:35.960 early childhood. But I started reading you know, The Post, 0:51:36.000 --> 0:51:39.080 the Daily News, the Times, kind of absorbing that and 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:41.399 then after college, you know, I moved there. I moved 0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:44.160 to New York for three years um, in part because 0:51:44.160 --> 0:51:47.040 I gained familiarity with it through going through Sarah Lace, 0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:50.040 going to Sarah Lawrence. How did you pay for Sarah Lawrence? 0:51:51.000 --> 0:51:55.840 Mixture of scholarships, my parents helping me in loans. Okay, 0:51:55.840 --> 0:51:57.279 so you go to New York and you worked the 0:51:57.440 --> 0:52:01.040 graveyard shift at the Daily News. Other than living in 0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:03.880 New York and anything good about doing that, other than 0:52:03.920 --> 0:52:06.600 meeting your husband there? Yeah, I mean my husband was 0:52:06.640 --> 0:52:09.719 a co worker. That was good. I mean it was 0:52:09.880 --> 0:52:13.040 my first, like real job, my first like I'm out 0:52:13.040 --> 0:52:15.160 of college and I have a job job, not like 0:52:15.280 --> 0:52:17.439 I work at the mall as a cashier kind of job, 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:19.880 you know, over the summer um. So it was an 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:22.680 educational experience, you know. It was just at that point 0:52:22.760 --> 0:52:24.960 grateful I was able to pay my bills because I 0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:27.840 was worried about that. I was there at a very 0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:29.759 tumultuous time, you know. I was there for the two 0:52:29.760 --> 0:52:32.359 thousand presidential election, and then of course I was there 0:52:32.520 --> 0:52:36.160 for nine eleven UM and that that was a horrific 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:38.040 time to live in New York City, you know, And 0:52:38.080 --> 0:52:41.440 it was a traumatic experience, And on one hand, I 0:52:41.520 --> 0:52:43.800 was glad to be at a newspaper because I felt 0:52:43.800 --> 0:52:47.680 like at least we were contributing something. And at that point, um, 0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:49.879 you know, as I described in the book, they made 0:52:49.880 --> 0:52:53.120 the decision to make the website a completely different animal 0:52:53.200 --> 0:52:56.000 than it had been before nine eleven, where instead of 0:52:56.000 --> 0:52:58.799 just being a replica of the print version, you had 0:52:58.960 --> 0:53:02.080 breaking news person ended live on the site. And so 0:53:02.200 --> 0:53:04.600 that was to be part of that change, which you know, 0:53:04.600 --> 0:53:08.800 in retrospect is a very big historic change for media. 0:53:08.920 --> 0:53:10.759 And it wasn't just the daily news. It was you know, 0:53:10.840 --> 0:53:15.720 basically every newspaper and magazine was making this decision. UM 0:53:15.719 --> 0:53:19.040 to witness that was something, but no one ever figured 0:53:19.080 --> 0:53:22.080 out what to do economically, um, how to monetize it. 0:53:22.160 --> 0:53:24.880 After nine eleven, there are a lot of layoffs, you know, 0:53:24.960 --> 0:53:27.200 in in my division, and I eventually, you know, I 0:53:27.280 --> 0:53:30.360 left New York UM in two thousand three because it 0:53:30.400 --> 0:53:34.719 had gotten incredibly expensive. Uh, there were no raises in sight. 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:37.000 I was always worried that I I too would be 0:53:37.080 --> 0:53:40.000 laid off, and I also just felt constricted, kind of 0:53:40.040 --> 0:53:42.680 like I I want to go deeper on these subjects. 0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:45.920 I want to do more writing. There isn't a path 0:53:46.080 --> 0:53:48.960 for me here, There isn't probably a place for me here. Um. 0:53:49.000 --> 0:53:50.440 You know, at this point, I was only twenty four 0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:52.359 years old, so it's kind of like I've got time 0:53:52.400 --> 0:53:54.279 to change my mind, you know. Okay, so you have 0:53:54.400 --> 0:53:56.560 your boyfriend, then I don't know if you're married at 0:53:56.560 --> 0:53:59.000 that point in time. We quit and then got married 0:53:59.120 --> 0:54:02.319 and invited our co workers. They came so and then 0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:05.480 you both went were uh. We left, uh, and we 0:54:05.520 --> 0:54:08.279 taught English for a year in Turkey. And before that 0:54:08.320 --> 0:54:10.319 we did a little bit of traveling. I had been 0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:13.440 freelancing on the side at the daily News and saving 0:54:13.520 --> 0:54:16.120 up my money, like kind of unbelievably, I wrote for 0:54:16.160 --> 0:54:19.879 like a few fashion magazines and neck then they paid well, 0:54:19.920 --> 0:54:21.120 and you know that's why I did it. They were 0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:23.680 being like a buck fifty word. So I sacked away 0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:26.239 about ten thousand bucks. Uh. And then you know, we 0:54:26.280 --> 0:54:29.840 went on a honeymoon and then I got jobs teaching 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:32.359 English in Istanbuwl and while we lived in Instan Bowl, 0:54:32.520 --> 0:54:35.440 you know, we traveled around. We went to Bulgaria, Romania, 0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:40.080 we went across Turkey, went to Georgia, um, Armenia. You know, 0:54:40.120 --> 0:54:41.840 I just kind of thought that this is the time 0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:44.200 before I have children, like I want to see as 0:54:44.280 --> 0:54:46.719 much of the world as I can. Um. And I 0:54:46.760 --> 0:54:49.120 had never left the country until I was twenty. When 0:54:49.160 --> 0:54:51.200 I was at Sarah Lawrence, I did a semester in 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:54.000 Vienna and I love to travel. You know, I miss 0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:56.919 it a lot right now. Um, my kids have never 0:54:56.960 --> 0:54:59.600 been outside the country, and I always dreamed of being 0:54:59.640 --> 0:55:02.040 able to to have them have those experiences. You know, 0:55:02.080 --> 0:55:05.680 since my family was so unadventurous with me, I wanted 0:55:05.719 --> 0:55:08.560 to give them that. So the coronavirus, it's hard for 0:55:08.600 --> 0:55:10.160 me to think of the future. It makes me sad, 0:55:10.440 --> 0:55:13.760 but yeah, that was an interesting point in my life. Eventually, Um, 0:55:13.800 --> 0:55:15.520 you know, we ran out of money and I had 0:55:15.520 --> 0:55:19.200 applied for a master's program UM in Central Asian Studies 0:55:19.200 --> 0:55:24.800 at Indiana University and so Central Asian, uh the stands 0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:29.000 the former Soviet Union Central Asian countries, and I was 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:32.680 studying uz Pakistan. And I had a Foreign Language Area 0:55:32.719 --> 0:55:36.000 Studies fellowship to to do that, which was very good 0:55:36.400 --> 0:55:38.839 because I didn't want to pay for it. And uh, 0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:41.040 you know, we we wanted out in New York at 0:55:41.040 --> 0:55:43.000 that point. Honestly, we didn't really know what we were 0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:46.200 doing and what did um he just looked for whatever 0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:48.320 job you could find and ended up, you know, working 0:55:48.320 --> 0:55:50.920 in marketing. He had been a journalist with me at 0:55:50.920 --> 0:55:54.239 the Daily News, like on the website division. But like 0:55:54.480 --> 0:55:58.839 journalism died in our lifetime. Like you know, basically we 0:55:59.160 --> 0:56:01.279 our goal is to pay the bills. Our goals did 0:56:01.280 --> 0:56:03.279 not have debt. That's the goal of a lot of 0:56:03.320 --> 0:56:06.440 people of my generation. You know, your dreams don't necessarily 0:56:06.440 --> 0:56:09.680 go beyond that. And uh, you know lately, I mean 0:56:09.760 --> 0:56:13.440 until recently, he was supporting my dreams. Um or there 0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:17.840 weren't even dreams, my best reactions to difficult circumstances that 0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:20.640 I was engaged in, uh, and just trying to keep 0:56:20.719 --> 0:56:23.919 us afloat. Okay, So the master's degree takes how long? 0:56:24.360 --> 0:56:27.080 Two years? Two years? And during that time do you 0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:30.279 go back to Central Asia? Well, I tried. I was 0:56:30.280 --> 0:56:32.520 supposed to go to Uzbekistan. I had a you know, 0:56:32.560 --> 0:56:35.920 a scholarship and a ticket and everything. And then in 0:56:36.320 --> 0:56:39.600 May two thousand five, there is a massacre in Uzbekistan, 0:56:39.920 --> 0:56:43.080 um you know, Tienamen Square style by the state, by 0:56:43.120 --> 0:56:46.600 the military on a group of protesters that had assembled 0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:49.160 in a city called Andi John and they massacred eight 0:56:49.200 --> 0:56:51.560 hundred people. UM and so that men. Of course, I 0:56:51.640 --> 0:56:53.680 was not going to go to Uzbekistan at that time, 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:56.920 and the country closed itself to westerners. And then at 0:56:56.960 --> 0:57:00.760 that point I started to study the massacre from abroad 0:57:00.800 --> 0:57:03.440 because I was very upset, you know, that it had 0:57:03.480 --> 0:57:06.319 happened just as a human rights crisis, but also what 0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:09.719 it had done is sent all these people from Uzbekistan, 0:57:09.840 --> 0:57:13.040 all these journalists, all these witnesses, into exile. And at 0:57:13.080 --> 0:57:16.720 that point blogging was new. It was basically banned in Newzbekistan, 0:57:16.880 --> 0:57:18.840 but they were in exile, so they were able to 0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:22.840 put online their recollections of what happened. And through that 0:57:22.880 --> 0:57:25.640 and through other documents that I was able to procure, 0:57:26.040 --> 0:57:30.440 I wrote papers debunking the uzbek government's version of what 0:57:30.520 --> 0:57:32.440 happened in newz Pekistan, where they were saying, you know, 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:35.280 they didn't do it, they weren't responsible, They invented a 0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:38.919 fake Islamic terrorist group and blamed them. I was able 0:57:38.960 --> 0:57:41.680 to debunk that. Um, that paper was used by the 0:57:41.800 --> 0:57:44.560 United Nations. Uh, you know, I'm glad I wrote it, 0:57:45.200 --> 0:57:46.760 But it meant, of course that I was never going 0:57:46.800 --> 0:57:49.080 to go to Uzbekistan, and I was never going to 0:57:49.080 --> 0:57:51.360 probably be allowed into a lot of other countries. So 0:57:51.400 --> 0:57:54.760 I shifted my focus onto digital media, into how digital 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:59.920 media was challenging autocracies and whether it would ultimately end up, 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:03.600 you know, making a more democratic political culture. The answer 0:58:03.640 --> 0:58:06.920 to that is no, the opposite happened. You know, autocracies 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:12.320 and dictatorships influenced uh democratic political cultures and infiltrated them, 0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:15.600 in part using the Internet. So unfortunately, Um, you know, 0:58:15.640 --> 0:58:17.880 that's what I started to identify as a trend when 0:58:17.920 --> 0:58:20.320 I began you know the next phase of my life, 0:58:20.320 --> 0:58:23.680 which was getting my PhD at Washington University. That's what 0:58:23.760 --> 0:58:28.520 I was studying was politics, the Internet, dictatorships, Central Asia. 0:58:28.560 --> 0:58:31.800 And my conclusions were, you know that we're in free 0:58:31.840 --> 0:58:36.000 a rough road because technology could so easily be manipulated 0:58:36.000 --> 0:58:39.720 by state powers, and people refuse to acknowledge that possibility. 0:58:39.800 --> 0:58:51.200 They always thought democracy somehow just sustains itself. What made 0:58:51.200 --> 0:58:54.160 you decide to get a PhD? Uh? Mostly because they 0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:57.480 were offering me like a five year, you know, continuous 0:58:57.520 --> 0:58:59.640 amount of money, and I at that point I wanted 0:58:59.640 --> 0:59:02.480 to have a family. Um, you know, I was twenty seven, 0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:05.640 I had started working as a research assistant for an 0:59:05.640 --> 0:59:10.240 anthropologist at Indiana University, and I realized that all that writing, uh, 0:59:10.400 --> 0:59:12.240 that I wanted to do at the daily news, where 0:59:12.240 --> 0:59:15.600 you could write longer articles, you could choose very interesting 0:59:15.840 --> 0:59:18.720 but more esoteric subjects, you know, is Pekistan is not 0:59:18.800 --> 0:59:21.920 exactly like a popularity winner. Um. You know that I 0:59:22.000 --> 0:59:23.840 would have the freedom to do that and to do 0:59:23.880 --> 0:59:26.520 the kind of research I liked, and so I applied. 0:59:26.840 --> 0:59:29.959 Uh was you offered me, you know, basically a full 0:59:30.040 --> 0:59:32.800 ride guaranteed for six years, um, you know, with health 0:59:32.840 --> 0:59:36.480 insurance and benefits and free tuition and the whole thing. Uh. 0:59:36.480 --> 0:59:39.480 And my sister in law lives here in St. Louis, 0:59:39.600 --> 0:59:41.600 you know, with her kids, and we liked the idea 0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:45.080 of having her own children near family. Um. And so 0:59:45.160 --> 0:59:47.080 that seemed like a good plan. And you know, it 0:59:47.200 --> 0:59:49.240 was a good plan. We we moved here. I did 0:59:49.280 --> 0:59:51.600 have kids while I was in graduate school. I got, 0:59:51.640 --> 0:59:53.760 you know, pregnant right off the bat, as soon as 0:59:53.800 --> 0:59:57.040 that fellowship check arrived. Um. And and it went fine. 0:59:57.080 --> 1:00:00.720 You know, I graduated actually before my classmates. Um. But then, 1:00:00.720 --> 1:00:03.920 of course, the the economy collapsed while I was getting 1:00:03.920 --> 1:00:06.840 that PhD, and there were no jobs once I finished it, 1:00:06.920 --> 1:00:10.360 So that was its own little obstacle. So your plan 1:00:10.560 --> 1:00:13.120 was to be an academic. I mean at that point 1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:15.920 in life, you know, I had witnessed the two thousand 1:00:15.960 --> 1:00:19.720 one economic collapse, nine eleven, um, you know, just a 1:00:19.720 --> 1:00:22.160 lot of changes that gave me very little faith on 1:00:22.240 --> 1:00:26.240 anything sustaining. So in my head, I always have multiple plans, 1:00:26.560 --> 1:00:28.640 you know, and I still in that way. I don't 1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:30.400 assume things are going to work out, as have a 1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:34.520 backup plan. So I thought, Okay, either I'll go into journalism, 1:00:34.680 --> 1:00:37.160 or I'll go into academia, or I'll work for an 1:00:37.360 --> 1:00:40.880 NGO UM, or I'll do something where hopefully it's interesting 1:00:40.920 --> 1:00:43.800 and challenging and creative work and I could provide for 1:00:43.880 --> 1:00:46.600 my family and have time with my children. Um and 1:00:46.640 --> 1:00:48.560 so it was really just sort of seeing what was 1:00:48.600 --> 1:00:51.680 out there. But yeah, I thought academia sounded good. Uh. 1:00:51.720 --> 1:00:54.320 You know, I I stayed home with my kids. I 1:00:54.320 --> 1:00:56.120 didn't want to pay for daycare, and also just I 1:00:56.160 --> 1:00:58.080 like kids, you know, I liked staying home with mine 1:00:58.240 --> 1:01:00.680 and I thought, well, if an academia I got summers off, 1:01:00.760 --> 1:01:02.720 you know, that's good. Like the kids will be home 1:01:02.720 --> 1:01:05.320 to will be home together. There's those sorts of concerns 1:01:05.400 --> 1:01:08.080 a lot of the time that um guided my career. 1:01:08.200 --> 1:01:11.120 You know. It wasn't lofty dreams. It was how do 1:01:11.160 --> 1:01:13.720 I make this work? Like what corners can I cut? 1:01:13.760 --> 1:01:18.200 Like how do I get creative satisfaction and just survive economically? Um? 1:01:18.440 --> 1:01:21.040 And you know I figured out ways to do that. 1:01:21.080 --> 1:01:24.760 But it's been tough because it's been a tough twenty years. 1:01:24.800 --> 1:01:28.040 You know, today is actually the twentieth anniversary of my 1:01:28.120 --> 1:01:30.880 college graduation. And I was saying to my mom this morning, 1:01:31.040 --> 1:01:33.640 that means it's been twenty years of people telling me 1:01:33.760 --> 1:01:36.640 that the economy is eventually going to work itself out, 1:01:36.720 --> 1:01:40.440 Like I'm still waiting. It's now been half my life. UM. 1:01:40.520 --> 1:01:43.560 So yeah, you know I wasn't necessary expecting things to 1:01:43.600 --> 1:01:47.240 go well. I know, I wasn't expecting, you know, Donald Trump, 1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:50.440 post of celebrity apprentice to be the aspiring dictator of 1:01:50.480 --> 1:01:53.320 my country. But uh, you know I definitely didn't see 1:01:53.320 --> 1:01:56.160 a smooth road ahead for myself. Okay, so what year 1:01:56.200 --> 1:01:58.880 do you get your PhD? Well, technically I finished it 1:01:58.920 --> 1:02:02.360 in two thousand eleven, late two thousand eleven, I defended 1:02:02.400 --> 1:02:05.920 my dissertation, received the actual degree in two thousand twelve. 1:02:06.200 --> 1:02:08.880 Um And I was a little sneaky. I wanted to 1:02:08.880 --> 1:02:10.760 be I had had a baby in two thousand eleven, 1:02:10.760 --> 1:02:13.160 and I wanted to be home with him. Uh and 1:02:13.240 --> 1:02:15.640 I had a fellowship and national fellowship, I had one. 1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:17.640 So I basically kind of was a stay at home 1:02:17.680 --> 1:02:20.440 mom for spring semester and then picked up my degree. 1:02:20.600 --> 1:02:23.800 But actually during that time I began writing again. UM. 1:02:23.840 --> 1:02:27.400 I began freelancing in early two thousand twelve for outlets 1:02:27.720 --> 1:02:30.200 who were interested in my work on Central Asia, and 1:02:30.240 --> 1:02:33.840 then expanding to write about the United States and about 1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:39.480 economic decline, collapse of institutions, politics, areas that I hadn't 1:02:39.520 --> 1:02:43.120 really written about. Um it wrote about academia itself. I 1:02:43.160 --> 1:02:46.560 wrote about it as an exploitative industry, which of course 1:02:46.600 --> 1:02:50.200 burnt all my bridges uh in academia, But I mean whatever, 1:02:50.720 --> 1:02:52.880 um And I just felt like there's a need to 1:02:52.920 --> 1:02:55.200 be honest about this. I felt like I was in 1:02:55.240 --> 1:02:58.080 a game that people like me, you know, we don't 1:02:58.160 --> 1:03:00.560 win it. I would have better a lot um and 1:03:00.640 --> 1:03:04.280 certainly more personal satisfaction, you know, from the perspective of 1:03:04.400 --> 1:03:09.760 valuing integrity and honesty by exposing these exploitative practices and 1:03:09.800 --> 1:03:12.800 these corrupt systems, then trying to participate in them and 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:14.680 trying to be part of it. Like part of that 1:03:14.720 --> 1:03:17.160 is I'm not good at doing that. I'm not good at, 1:03:17.240 --> 1:03:19.560 you know, faking it and sucking up and doing all 1:03:19.600 --> 1:03:21.680 those things you're supposed to do. But I also felt 1:03:21.680 --> 1:03:24.720 like this is a systemic problem, and it is it's 1:03:24.760 --> 1:03:28.200 hurting our world, like the it's depriving the world of 1:03:28.240 --> 1:03:31.640 talent and knowledge and good people because all of the 1:03:31.680 --> 1:03:35.280 opportunities are being hearded by elites that have this pay 1:03:35.360 --> 1:03:37.880 to play system where you basically have to pay to 1:03:37.960 --> 1:03:40.640 apply for jobs, or you have to do unpaid internships, 1:03:40.720 --> 1:03:42.560 or you have to do very low paid jobs and 1:03:42.640 --> 1:03:45.439 expensive cities. I felt like it was all rigged, and 1:03:45.560 --> 1:03:48.040 it was you know, I wanted to blow the whistle 1:03:48.080 --> 1:03:49.880 on it. I felt at that point, honestly, I had 1:03:50.000 --> 1:03:54.560 very little to lose. Okay, so in this era, after eleven, 1:03:54.640 --> 1:03:57.760 you start writing, is your husband the main breadwinner at 1:03:57.760 --> 1:04:00.920 that point? Yeah? Yeah, well he us. But I still 1:04:00.960 --> 1:04:03.920 had my I got a fellowship from wash you. I mean, 1:04:03.920 --> 1:04:07.360 it wasn't a lot, it was about twenty dollars. But 1:04:07.400 --> 1:04:09.800 when the but when the fellowship ends and you have 1:04:09.960 --> 1:04:13.200 your degree and you don't go into academia before your 1:04:13.240 --> 1:04:17.040 first book is published, how lucrative is your writing career? 1:04:17.560 --> 1:04:20.680 Not not that lucrative. Probably. I mean I wasn't working 1:04:20.680 --> 1:04:23.200 full time because I had two little kids, and so 1:04:23.240 --> 1:04:25.040 I was, you know, spending a lot of times taking 1:04:25.080 --> 1:04:27.360 care of them. It's probably making like, I don't know, 1:04:27.760 --> 1:04:31.120 between twenty five and thirty five thousand a year, which 1:04:31.160 --> 1:04:34.840 I'm sure in California sounds very low. In Missouri for 1:04:34.880 --> 1:04:38.480 a mom, staying at home is not that bad, you know, 1:04:38.600 --> 1:04:41.240 combined with my husband's salary, because our rent and all 1:04:41.280 --> 1:04:44.960 our expensives are a lot cheaper. And so yeah, I 1:04:44.960 --> 1:04:47.040 mean I was always kind of hoping that i'd be 1:04:47.080 --> 1:04:51.240 offered some sort of you know, better paying position. Um, 1:04:51.280 --> 1:04:53.080 but you know, it was more than I had been 1:04:53.080 --> 1:04:55.920 making in grad school, for one. And uh. What I 1:04:55.960 --> 1:04:58.120 realized though, was that any kind of position I was 1:04:58.120 --> 1:05:01.320 ineligible for because I refused to move to New York 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:04.080 or to San Francisco or wherever jobs are based with 1:05:04.120 --> 1:05:06.760 a family, because I could never afford that, you know, here, 1:05:06.800 --> 1:05:08.440 I could buy a house you know there I could 1:05:08.480 --> 1:05:10.680 live in a closet and pay like three thousand dollars 1:05:10.720 --> 1:05:13.280 or something, and you do own a house. Yeah, yeah, 1:05:13.480 --> 1:05:16.440 you in the bank own a house. Okay, yeah, exactly. 1:05:17.000 --> 1:05:19.160 Tell me the story of fly Over Country, how you 1:05:19.200 --> 1:05:21.280 get a deal, how that comes out in the reaction 1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:24.120 there too, Well, that was just that was a fluke. 1:05:24.200 --> 1:05:26.640 I mean basically, in two thousand and twelve, I started 1:05:26.680 --> 1:05:30.440 writing for Al Jazeera on pretty much a weekly basis, 1:05:30.480 --> 1:05:34.120 writing essays. And when I left, I I quit Al 1:05:34.160 --> 1:05:38.720 Jazeera in because they were launching Al Jazeera America, um, 1:05:38.760 --> 1:05:42.000 and they basically just wanted like hot takes, and uh, 1:05:42.360 --> 1:05:44.840 I had a new editor. My editor quit and protest. 1:05:44.960 --> 1:05:47.440 Other people quittin protests, and so eventually I did too. 1:05:47.640 --> 1:05:49.800 And my readers were like, I wish all your essays 1:05:49.840 --> 1:05:52.200 were in one place, and I said, okay, And so 1:05:52.360 --> 1:05:55.640 you know, I put them together myself, um, in a book, 1:05:55.720 --> 1:05:57.480 you know, I called if You for fly Over Country. 1:05:57.520 --> 1:06:00.400 I wrote a little introduction and I published it Kindle. 1:06:00.440 --> 1:06:04.520 It was a self published book and it was surprisingly successful. 1:06:04.600 --> 1:06:06.840 And at this point I had had agents from the 1:06:06.880 --> 1:06:09.800 publishing world approaching me, you know, wanting to know if 1:06:09.840 --> 1:06:11.920 I wanted to write a book, um, and I had 1:06:11.920 --> 1:06:14.560 proposed that, actually, I had proposed an essay collection because 1:06:14.560 --> 1:06:17.080 I knew there was demand for it. They basically said, 1:06:17.200 --> 1:06:20.200 you know, no, no one would want that. Um. Also, 1:06:20.240 --> 1:06:22.480 no one understands really what you're talking about. You know, 1:06:22.520 --> 1:06:25.280 you're too gloomy. Things aren't that bad? And I was like, well, 1:06:25.320 --> 1:06:27.440 you know, these are viral essays for a reason, like 1:06:27.480 --> 1:06:29.960 they're they're resonating with people. And so then I was 1:06:30.000 --> 1:06:32.640 just sort of like, well, screw these New York people 1:06:32.640 --> 1:06:34.800 aren't gonna understand what I'm talking about anyway. I'm just 1:06:34.840 --> 1:06:37.800 gonna go about my life. Um. I ended up covering 1:06:37.960 --> 1:06:42.440 Ferguson from that point on because published the book. What 1:06:42.680 --> 1:06:45.280 gains notice for the book, because usually a book doesn't 1:06:45.320 --> 1:06:49.240 get any notice unless the author works it. Yeah, well, 1:06:49.320 --> 1:06:51.480 I I mean I promoted it on Twitter, and at 1:06:51.480 --> 1:06:54.760 that point, I had, you know, fairly substantial following. I 1:06:54.840 --> 1:06:57.920 think I self published in and I had maybe forty 1:06:58.040 --> 1:07:00.280 or fifty thousand people. I mean at this when of 1:07:00.440 --> 1:07:03.720 half a million people. So it's changed quite a bit. Um. 1:07:03.760 --> 1:07:06.760 You know, Then with that book, what happened was the election. 1:07:07.080 --> 1:07:09.200 And so when the election happened. And I had been 1:07:09.240 --> 1:07:11.520 writing about the election all year. I covered it for 1:07:11.560 --> 1:07:14.120 the Globe and Mail in Canada and for other publications, 1:07:14.200 --> 1:07:16.800 and I made lots of predictions that people thought were crazy, 1:07:16.880 --> 1:07:19.880 but they all came true. And so suddenly everyone was 1:07:19.920 --> 1:07:21.920 looking at like, well, what else did she write? And 1:07:21.960 --> 1:07:23.880 you know what, what does she study? And they all 1:07:23.880 --> 1:07:27.280 wanted this book because the book does describe a lot 1:07:27.320 --> 1:07:32.000 of the things that Trump exploited. Economic devastation, political paranoia, 1:07:32.120 --> 1:07:35.240 hyper partisanship, you know, all these these essays about different 1:07:35.480 --> 1:07:39.200 facets of American decline. It became very, very popular at 1:07:39.240 --> 1:07:41.840 the end of twenties sixteen, and um, you know, as 1:07:41.880 --> 1:07:44.880 you've mentioned in your newsletter, Hillary Clinton was quoting it. Um, 1:07:44.920 --> 1:07:47.440 a lot of celebrities were quoting it. Still still self 1:07:47.480 --> 1:07:50.240 published it. I was still self published. So then what happens. 1:07:50.280 --> 1:07:52.400 And at that point I had an agent I actually liked. 1:07:52.400 --> 1:07:55.440 It's this guy who's in Canada who liked me, you 1:07:55.480 --> 1:07:58.200 know back when uh like, he didn't like me for 1:07:58.280 --> 1:08:00.440 like am I popular or not? He liked the quality 1:08:00.440 --> 1:08:03.000 of my work. So I trusted him because he liked 1:08:03.000 --> 1:08:05.160 me when I wasn't all that well known and he's 1:08:05.200 --> 1:08:07.800 still my agent now. So all these publishing houses are 1:08:07.840 --> 1:08:10.360 coming to me and they all want to republish View 1:08:10.360 --> 1:08:12.840 from fly Over Country, and I'm thinking no, like, I'm 1:08:12.840 --> 1:08:15.680 never gonna let you republish it, because this is my 1:08:15.760 --> 1:08:17.720 book and I wrote it myself, and I'm worried that 1:08:17.720 --> 1:08:19.880 you're gonna take my words and you're gonna twist them 1:08:19.960 --> 1:08:22.080 or you're gonna cut things out. And this went on 1:08:22.120 --> 1:08:25.479 and on, Um, and I kept refusing offers until finally 1:08:25.520 --> 1:08:27.559 the Hillary thing happened, and then we got you know, 1:08:27.600 --> 1:08:31.639 a lot of interest after that, and I just said, yes, Um, 1:08:31.680 --> 1:08:33.479 you know, I'll let you buy the rights to this, 1:08:33.600 --> 1:08:36.040 you know, and they're paying me in advance as a standard, 1:08:36.080 --> 1:08:37.960 and I wrote you know, some new material for the 1:08:37.960 --> 1:08:40.360 book as well, and the introduction and the conclusion. But 1:08:40.439 --> 1:08:43.120 I'm not changing a word of these essays because they're 1:08:43.160 --> 1:08:45.720 quoted all over the place, and they're also emblematic of 1:08:45.800 --> 1:08:48.559 the time in which they're written, you know, they capture 1:08:48.600 --> 1:08:53.559 that moment between Um and so I somewhat reluctantly agreed 1:08:53.760 --> 1:08:57.320 to you know, have a flat iron. McMillan published a 1:08:57.360 --> 1:08:59.840 paperback version. Uh, you know, there was demand for that 1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:02.400 lot of people. They don't like reading things on kindle. 1:09:02.560 --> 1:09:05.000 They want a print version. And I understood that, and 1:09:05.040 --> 1:09:06.600 I thought, all right, you know, why the hell not. 1:09:07.120 --> 1:09:09.920 And to my great surprise, it became a best seller. 1:09:10.040 --> 1:09:12.000 And I just did not think that would happen, because 1:09:12.040 --> 1:09:14.240 I mean, really, this is the third go round for 1:09:14.280 --> 1:09:17.360 this essay collection. You know, first there online, then it 1:09:17.400 --> 1:09:19.400 was a kindle book, then it's a print books. I thought, well, 1:09:19.439 --> 1:09:21.160 no one's going to really buy this, like, and I 1:09:21.160 --> 1:09:23.960 don't think that flat. I thought that either, Like it 1:09:24.000 --> 1:09:27.040 was understocked everywhere, you know, people were trying to get 1:09:27.040 --> 1:09:28.720 copies of it and could and they had to they 1:09:28.760 --> 1:09:31.160 had to print more. But I landed on the New 1:09:31.200 --> 1:09:33.439 York Times bestseller list, and so then they made me, 1:09:33.560 --> 1:09:36.599 you know, another offer for for my next book, um, 1:09:36.640 --> 1:09:38.800 which again I was a little bit reluctant because of 1:09:38.880 --> 1:09:40.880 the chaos that we live in, you know, because of 1:09:40.960 --> 1:09:43.559 these times, like how do you write about politics knowing 1:09:43.600 --> 1:09:46.360 that your work won't be published for a whole year, 1:09:46.520 --> 1:09:49.120 you know, when so much changes every day. As I thought, well, 1:09:49.120 --> 1:09:51.000 I'll write a history. I'll write a history of the 1:09:51.080 --> 1:09:53.479 last forty years and of all the things that have 1:09:53.560 --> 1:09:56.439 transpired that people refused to cover because that will always 1:09:56.720 --> 1:09:59.639 be necessary and that will be to some degree current. Although, 1:10:00.080 --> 1:10:02.200 as I explained in the book A Challenges, there were 1:10:02.240 --> 1:10:05.719 new revelations of that history coming hard and fast throughout 1:10:06.200 --> 1:10:08.439 nineteen when I was writing it, so that it was 1:10:08.560 --> 1:10:12.240 challenging in its own right. But yeah, yeah, that's you know, Okay, 1:10:12.320 --> 1:10:16.120 when when you self published the book, were you making 1:10:16.120 --> 1:10:19.360 any money selling it? Oh? Yeah, yeah, with Amazon, you 1:10:19.400 --> 1:10:23.799 get you keep like se well my question did didn't 1:10:23.800 --> 1:10:26.360 add up to a decent pile of money. Um, I mean, 1:10:26.400 --> 1:10:28.559 I couldn't have lived off it, but it certainly made 1:10:28.560 --> 1:10:30.800 a you know, it was good. It helped me out. 1:10:30.880 --> 1:10:33.360 I mean, especially during the time, like as I mentioned, 1:10:33.400 --> 1:10:36.000 there's like a sixteen month period where my husband had 1:10:36.000 --> 1:10:37.720 been laid off, you know, as part of a mass 1:10:37.760 --> 1:10:40.639 layoff at his company, was looking for jobs. We were 1:10:40.960 --> 1:10:44.000 very close to the poverty line. So every little bit helped, 1:10:44.040 --> 1:10:46.639 you know, like little sums of money like a hundred dollars, 1:10:46.680 --> 1:10:49.080 two hundred dollars, like they would make a huge difference 1:10:49.120 --> 1:10:52.599 for us, and so um. But yeah, like in twenty sixteen, 1:10:53.160 --> 1:10:55.519 after the election, suddenly the book brought in quite a 1:10:55.560 --> 1:10:57.840 lot of money. And you know that was, you know, 1:10:57.880 --> 1:10:59.760 by my standards, quite a lot of money. That was 1:10:59.800 --> 1:11:02.040 when reasons I was reluctant because I was thinking, well, 1:11:02.080 --> 1:11:03.920 you know, this is lucrative for me. I want to 1:11:03.920 --> 1:11:07.000 hold onto this because what if it doesn't sell anything? 1:11:07.120 --> 1:11:09.559 Like what if this advance isn't worth it? So and 1:11:09.560 --> 1:11:11.800 and so forth. Um, you know, ultimately I think I 1:11:11.840 --> 1:11:14.040 made the right decision by by letting them put the 1:11:14.040 --> 1:11:17.479 print one out, But yeah, you know it was I mean, 1:11:17.520 --> 1:11:19.439 it had a lot more to do with creative control. 1:11:19.560 --> 1:11:21.880 Like I wanted those essays meant something to me, and 1:11:21.880 --> 1:11:24.559 I wanted to hold onto them, and I I honestly 1:11:24.600 --> 1:11:28.680 I didn't trust uh, you know, somebody else managing my 1:11:29.040 --> 1:11:32.480 material that had already been read and was quoted and appreciated. 1:11:32.560 --> 1:11:35.200 So I thought it would be better. Though. So you 1:11:35.320 --> 1:11:37.080 have that book, and you have the subsequent book that 1:11:37.080 --> 1:11:40.439 came out about six weeks ago, Hiding in Plane Site. 1:11:40.840 --> 1:11:44.479 You if someone were to research you, You're constantly on 1:11:44.640 --> 1:11:49.280 TV shows, You're constantly being here and there is because 1:11:49.439 --> 1:11:51.080 the reason I bring this up is in your book 1:11:51.120 --> 1:11:54.200 Hiding in Plane Site, you talk about someone who's a 1:11:54.280 --> 1:11:59.599 well known pundit and is essentially broke it. Needless to say, 1:11:59.720 --> 1:12:03.559 you're not paid for these appearances or nothing significant. Have 1:12:03.720 --> 1:12:08.240 they led to any other economic opportunities? No, I mean 1:12:08.280 --> 1:12:10.800 I started my own podcast with a friend of mine, 1:12:11.000 --> 1:12:14.080 um Andrea Chalupa, who's also an expert on the former 1:12:14.080 --> 1:12:17.439 Soviet Union, and we started our podcast, Gasola Nation in 1:12:18.760 --> 1:12:20.679 and I think just the fact that at this point 1:12:20.960 --> 1:12:24.200 I was relatively well known, especially for you know what 1:12:24.320 --> 1:12:27.360 the podcast is on, just corruption and autocracy, and she 1:12:27.560 --> 1:12:31.960 was too. That became an an unsuspected hit. Um. You know, 1:12:32.080 --> 1:12:34.559 we we've done very well with that show and so, 1:12:34.720 --> 1:12:37.720 but that again was an opportunity I created myself. It 1:12:37.800 --> 1:12:40.599 was like self publishing the book, where I'm not working 1:12:40.640 --> 1:12:43.840 for anybody but me on my own boss. Um. But yeah, 1:12:43.920 --> 1:12:46.960 you know the interviews I do, it's to get information 1:12:47.000 --> 1:12:50.400 out to the public. Like I feel like the media 1:12:50.520 --> 1:12:53.360 is not covering a lot of very vital topics having 1:12:53.360 --> 1:12:57.480 to do with organized crying, with state corruption, with rising fascism, 1:12:57.520 --> 1:13:00.720 and so when I get my little minute on MSNBC 1:13:00.840 --> 1:13:03.080 or whatever, I try to pack a lot of information 1:13:03.160 --> 1:13:05.000 in there because I know it's the only one I'll 1:13:05.040 --> 1:13:06.960 get and I feel like, you know, you kind of 1:13:07.040 --> 1:13:09.479 need to to cut through the crap um and tell 1:13:09.560 --> 1:13:12.400 Americans what's going on. And I'm by no means saying 1:13:12.400 --> 1:13:16.120 I'm the only person who knows what's going on, but uh, 1:13:16.160 --> 1:13:17.880 you know, I think, I guess the way I talk 1:13:18.080 --> 1:13:20.479 is distinct from the way a lot of pundits choose 1:13:20.479 --> 1:13:23.519 to present themselves. And I'm not interested in, you know, 1:13:23.600 --> 1:13:28.120 being an MSNBC contributor or anything like that. That's like 1:13:28.280 --> 1:13:30.200 not the kind of job I'd want to do. Although 1:13:30.200 --> 1:13:31.840 I guess nowadays you can just do it from your 1:13:31.840 --> 1:13:35.200 house and maybe it's more feeling. But um, you know, 1:13:35.240 --> 1:13:37.320 that wasn't my goal. My goal is to just kind of, 1:13:37.680 --> 1:13:40.840 you know, get the word out there, um, and uh, 1:13:40.920 --> 1:13:42.960 you know, and sometimes it's it's fun to do that, 1:13:43.080 --> 1:13:45.400 you know. I I write to communicate, and so I 1:13:45.760 --> 1:13:47.559 like it when my words are heard, and I like 1:13:47.640 --> 1:13:49.960 hearing from my readers, and you know, I like having 1:13:50.080 --> 1:13:54.040 interesting discussions. Okay, I think it's in no direction home. 1:13:54.120 --> 1:13:56.840 Bob Dylan says they asked him what he wants and 1:13:56.880 --> 1:13:59.840 he won't tell them because his dreams are so big. 1:14:00.360 --> 1:14:03.479 But I'm going to ask you and in your mind, 1:14:04.360 --> 1:14:06.760 what do you want to have happened for yourself? I 1:14:06.760 --> 1:14:10.400 mean for myself. I want this country to remain a democracy. 1:14:10.439 --> 1:14:12.960 I wanted to rain free. I want to have enough 1:14:13.000 --> 1:14:16.280 financial stability to you know, travel around and raise my 1:14:16.400 --> 1:14:19.280 kids and show them in and I, you know, I'm worried. 1:14:19.560 --> 1:14:21.760 It's more of what I don't want. That that's what 1:14:21.840 --> 1:14:24.720 looms largest in my mind, unfortunately, and it's it's a 1:14:24.840 --> 1:14:27.559 terrible thing to live through life that way, but I 1:14:27.600 --> 1:14:30.559 feel like it's pragmatic. You know, things have changed in 1:14:30.600 --> 1:14:33.719 a very dire way over the course of my adult life, 1:14:33.720 --> 1:14:37.160 and I feel like I'm constantly, you know, battling these things, 1:14:37.200 --> 1:14:39.120 you know, like I have to be hyper vigilant. I 1:14:39.200 --> 1:14:42.240 have to fight them off. And so if I were 1:14:42.280 --> 1:14:44.880 to just have anything, it honestly wouldn't be that much. 1:14:44.920 --> 1:14:48.040 I just want my creative freedom, my ability to speak 1:14:48.080 --> 1:14:51.040 my mind, a baseline level of income that that keeps 1:14:51.080 --> 1:14:53.880 me comfortable. But I don't care that much about you know, 1:14:54.240 --> 1:14:57.960 material stuff or prestige to what degreed? Do you care 1:14:58.560 --> 1:15:02.120 about the breath of your wisdom reaching the public, which 1:15:02.160 --> 1:15:04.840 is not a monetary thing. If people read it, you know, 1:15:05.360 --> 1:15:08.160 that matters to me. Because you know, I'm especially because 1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:10.640 I'm trying to send out a warning about things that 1:15:10.680 --> 1:15:12.960 are happening, you know, to our government that in in 1:15:13.000 --> 1:15:15.080 our country that I don't think everyone is aware of. 1:15:15.439 --> 1:15:17.519 You know, that matters to me. And obviously as a writer, 1:15:17.720 --> 1:15:20.519 you know, it's a great feeling to connect with my audience. 1:15:20.560 --> 1:15:22.800 And I'm very grateful you know when people say that 1:15:22.880 --> 1:15:25.920 they understand something or they're you know, moved by what 1:15:26.000 --> 1:15:28.400 I wrote, or any kind of emotional reaction. I mean, 1:15:28.400 --> 1:15:31.839 I think that's true for everyone, So that's important to me. Um, 1:15:31.880 --> 1:15:34.320 you know, But the whole sort of I don't even know, 1:15:34.400 --> 1:15:36.559 Like I don't know what the sort of thing I'm 1:15:36.600 --> 1:15:40.120 supposed to be striving for for publishing is. You know, 1:15:40.160 --> 1:15:42.360 people will bring up like awards or prizes and like 1:15:42.400 --> 1:15:44.680 I don't know what they are. I feel like I've 1:15:44.720 --> 1:15:48.280 seen this whole rigamarole from academia. Like in academia, I 1:15:48.280 --> 1:15:50.679 want a ton of prizes and awards and it didn't 1:15:50.680 --> 1:15:52.840 mean jack ship. I mean unless unless it gave me 1:15:52.880 --> 1:15:55.520 some money, you know, so that I could get by. 1:15:55.560 --> 1:15:58.160 It just doesn't matter. Like I just want to put 1:15:58.200 --> 1:16:00.720 work out that I'm satisfied it that I think is 1:16:00.760 --> 1:16:04.040 actually high quality and good, which is not an easy thing. 1:16:04.320 --> 1:16:06.080 You know, I do a lot of rewriting. I do 1:16:06.160 --> 1:16:09.160 a lot of harsh editing of my own work. Um. 1:16:09.240 --> 1:16:11.519 And so you know, it's a matter of meeting those 1:16:11.600 --> 1:16:14.519 challenges and also just trying to you know, keep up 1:16:14.520 --> 1:16:17.400 with what's happening politically. Uh. And you know, get the 1:16:17.400 --> 1:16:19.599 word out to to as many people as I can 1:16:20.320 --> 1:16:22.840 so Uh. In one of your podcasts, you say you're 1:16:22.840 --> 1:16:26.040 not worried about your reputation. What did you mean by that? 1:16:26.800 --> 1:16:29.439 I don't worry about what, you know, sort of fancy 1:16:29.520 --> 1:16:33.200 people like people in powerful positions what they think of me. Um. 1:16:33.240 --> 1:16:35.439 And I in some respects at this point, have the 1:16:35.520 --> 1:16:38.080 luxury of doing that because I do run my own podcast, 1:16:38.120 --> 1:16:40.160 and you know, as a writer, I'm kind of an 1:16:40.200 --> 1:16:42.559 autonomous unit writing a book. I mean, I do have 1:16:42.600 --> 1:16:45.439 to deal with the publishing company and the lawyers and whatnot, 1:16:45.439 --> 1:16:47.960 and that's not always pleasant. But you know, I essentially 1:16:48.000 --> 1:16:49.840 am in a unique position where I could do what 1:16:49.880 --> 1:16:52.759 I want. I'm not trying to climb some kind of ladder. 1:16:52.800 --> 1:16:55.280 I think the ladder doesn't go anywhere. Uh. And it's 1:16:55.320 --> 1:16:58.120 also of no interest to me, like, and I get invited. 1:16:58.160 --> 1:16:59.720 I mean, this guy sounds so obnoxious. But when I 1:16:59.720 --> 1:17:01.920 get a vited to like a lot of these conferences 1:17:01.960 --> 1:17:04.760 that people had in the pre pandemic era, you know, 1:17:05.720 --> 1:17:08.680 I was uncomfortable. I didn't like the fanciness of it, 1:17:08.760 --> 1:17:11.880 the expense of it, the superficiality of it. I sometimes 1:17:11.920 --> 1:17:14.880 would meet really great people, people I genuinely respect, and 1:17:14.920 --> 1:17:17.640 that's always a good thing, but I don't know that 1:17:17.760 --> 1:17:23.200 the whole world, it's not for me. Um And so yeah, okay, 1:17:23.360 --> 1:17:28.040 let's go macro. Tell us about Putin, the man, Russia, 1:17:28.120 --> 1:17:32.200 the country and their plan and interference in the United 1:17:32.240 --> 1:17:36.200 States and other world affairs. Yeah, well, Putin has basically 1:17:36.240 --> 1:17:39.240 been plotting the revenge of the Soviet Union ever since 1:17:39.280 --> 1:17:43.679 he was elected UM in New Year's even And I think, 1:17:43.800 --> 1:17:46.640 you know, what we're seeing on a global scale is 1:17:46.680 --> 1:17:49.960 the influence of not just Putin in the Kremlin, but 1:17:50.040 --> 1:17:54.920 of Putin and it's uh, you know, oligarch and mafia 1:17:55.439 --> 1:17:59.639 kind of tri part um, you know, conglomeration where they 1:17:59.680 --> 1:18:03.439 want autocracy, where they're involved in money laundry, where they 1:18:03.479 --> 1:18:06.800 see things like NATO and the EU and these international 1:18:06.880 --> 1:18:09.760 bodies as obstacles to their own goals, you know, and 1:18:09.760 --> 1:18:12.520 their goals. Putin's goals are the same as any dictator. 1:18:12.600 --> 1:18:15.720 So he wants money, he wants power, he wants territory, 1:18:15.840 --> 1:18:18.640 which we've seen with Crimea. He has openly said, you know, 1:18:18.680 --> 1:18:21.840 he wants to bring the Soviet Union back together. He 1:18:21.920 --> 1:18:24.719 said that the dissolution of it was the great tragedy 1:18:24.760 --> 1:18:27.240 of his life. And he sees people like Trump as 1:18:27.439 --> 1:18:30.200 useful vehicles for this goal. And you know, the book 1:18:30.280 --> 1:18:33.600 lays out how Trump has both had political ambition in 1:18:33.640 --> 1:18:36.479 the United States UM and with the Republican Party with 1:18:36.520 --> 1:18:40.599 operatives like Roger Stone for over thirty years, and has 1:18:40.680 --> 1:18:43.519 been hooked up to the Kremlin and to especially the 1:18:43.600 --> 1:18:46.960 Russian mafia for over thirty years because there who bailed 1:18:47.040 --> 1:18:50.680 him out after his bankruptcies when nobody else, you know, 1:18:50.760 --> 1:18:53.880 would would invest in him. The Russians made an investment 1:18:54.280 --> 1:18:57.080 in Donald Trump and it paid off very well for them. 1:18:57.080 --> 1:18:59.600 And I should specify that by I shouldn't say Russians. 1:18:59.640 --> 1:19:03.000 It's Aligarcs from the former Soviet Union and mobsters from 1:19:03.040 --> 1:19:05.920 the former Soviet Union. And they're not always from Russia 1:19:06.000 --> 1:19:09.240 the country. They're not always you know, ethnically Russian. There 1:19:09.240 --> 1:19:12.320 are people who profited off the dissolution of the Soviet 1:19:12.400 --> 1:19:16.000 Union themselves, you know, which is honestly, that's the model 1:19:16.160 --> 1:19:18.960 that I think they want for the United States. They 1:19:18.960 --> 1:19:21.800 wanted to be weak, they wanted to fall apart, and 1:19:21.800 --> 1:19:26.000 then they want to make money, taking resources, taking over businesses, 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:29.439 and so on and so forth. You talk a lot 1:19:29.479 --> 1:19:33.439 in the book about a transnational crime syndicate, and you 1:19:33.479 --> 1:19:37.200 say in the US, the Italian mafia has been replaced 1:19:37.200 --> 1:19:40.040 by the Russian mafia. I don't think the average even 1:19:40.040 --> 1:19:43.479 though you quote sources in the government warning about this, 1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:46.600 I don't believe the average American is aware of this. 1:19:46.960 --> 1:19:51.479 How bad is it? It's it's very bad, especially because, uh, 1:19:51.520 --> 1:19:54.320 you know, a lot of this kind of happened legally 1:19:54.520 --> 1:19:57.080 in a way. Uh. You know, the border between white 1:19:57.080 --> 1:20:00.600 collar crime and organized crime really began to blur in 1:20:00.640 --> 1:20:02.920 the nine nineties, and one of the hot spots for 1:20:02.960 --> 1:20:05.439 this was of course New York City, Um, you know, 1:20:05.520 --> 1:20:09.160 with deregulation on Wall Street. And then what happened was, 1:20:09.520 --> 1:20:12.919 you know, you had Juliani in the nineteen eighties basically 1:20:12.960 --> 1:20:16.320 cracking down on the Italian mafia weakening them. And then 1:20:16.360 --> 1:20:19.360 after the collapse of the Soviet Union, where people from 1:20:19.400 --> 1:20:22.640 that region were able to travel, including its top criminals, 1:20:22.840 --> 1:20:25.160 they set up shop in New York City. Some of 1:20:25.160 --> 1:20:27.280 them had already been doing that in the nineteen eighties. 1:20:27.320 --> 1:20:29.559 They were living in Trump Tower. You know. Trump Tower 1:20:29.640 --> 1:20:32.599 is basically functioning as a dorm for the Russian mafia. 1:20:32.920 --> 1:20:35.960 And they began to move their dirty money in and 1:20:36.000 --> 1:20:39.240 out of all these New York properties, including others owned 1:20:39.280 --> 1:20:42.040 by Donald Trump, and they gained quite a foothold. And 1:20:42.120 --> 1:20:45.040 some of them, you know, went and worked on Wall Street. 1:20:45.080 --> 1:20:47.160 They worked for these big firms, and that that's what 1:20:47.200 --> 1:20:50.280 I mean by that line being very much blurred. And 1:20:50.320 --> 1:20:52.799 I think there is a tendency in the United States 1:20:52.800 --> 1:20:55.639 to be very forgiving of these figures. They're like, oh, 1:20:55.680 --> 1:20:57.880 you know, poor Russians. You know, they were a communists 1:20:57.920 --> 1:21:00.800 and now they're just having trouble figuring out this capitalist thing. 1:21:00.840 --> 1:21:04.479 It's like, no, these are seasoned criminals. They understand high 1:21:04.479 --> 1:21:08.360 finance very well, they understand organized crime very well, and 1:21:08.400 --> 1:21:11.200 they are duping you. You are thinking that they're playing dumb, 1:21:11.280 --> 1:21:14.240 but they're actually very intelligent. And honestly, I don't think 1:21:14.280 --> 1:21:17.240 Trump is particularly intelligent, but I think he's intelligent at 1:21:17.280 --> 1:21:19.240 playing dumb as well. He pretends to be a lot 1:21:19.320 --> 1:21:22.280 stupider than he is because he is smart when it 1:21:22.320 --> 1:21:24.880 comes to crime. He knows exactly the amount he needs 1:21:24.920 --> 1:21:27.640 to know, and he knows how to function within a 1:21:27.680 --> 1:21:31.599 criminal organization. But yeah, the Russian mafia took over where 1:21:31.640 --> 1:21:35.280 the Italian mafia left off, and they're still very active. 1:21:35.640 --> 1:21:37.519 You know, It's true, not just in New York, but 1:21:37.920 --> 1:21:41.479 in most major cities. Miami is another hot spot, Southern 1:21:41.520 --> 1:21:44.400 Florida in general. Uh, And no one cracked on on them. 1:21:44.600 --> 1:21:47.360 There was a crackdown in the late nineties, but once 1:21:47.479 --> 1:21:50.920 nine eleven happened, all those resources at the FBI that 1:21:50.920 --> 1:21:54.599 we're looking into Russian organized crime, UH turned to you know, 1:21:54.720 --> 1:21:59.240 Islamic terrorism, preventing future attacks and so forth, and they 1:21:59.320 --> 1:22:02.080 forgot about them. But they were still working, and they 1:22:02.120 --> 1:22:04.320 realized that one of the wisest things they could do 1:22:04.479 --> 1:22:08.080 to keep their illegal operations going was to infiltrate government 1:22:08.160 --> 1:22:12.120 and infiltrate institutions and make those institutions work for them. 1:22:12.360 --> 1:22:15.160 And so you have, you know, things like the former 1:22:15.280 --> 1:22:18.120 directors of the FBI in the nineties, Lewis Free, William 1:22:18.160 --> 1:22:21.439 Sessions going on to work for the Russian mafia, as 1:22:21.520 --> 1:22:26.519 you know, consultants working for various firms. It's it's frightening, um, 1:22:26.600 --> 1:22:28.280 And it's frightening to me that people don't talk about 1:22:28.320 --> 1:22:31.280 it more because it is a profound national security threat. 1:22:31.400 --> 1:22:34.759 Mueller himself in two thousand and eleven wrote a speech 1:22:34.800 --> 1:22:38.040 about what a security threat this was to Western democracy, 1:22:38.040 --> 1:22:41.519 how incredibly dangerous these people are, and now they're in 1:22:41.560 --> 1:22:44.360 the White House. Okay, so we covered a little bit 1:22:44.360 --> 1:22:49.960 of sixteen in Russia interference with the election, but certainly 1:22:50.080 --> 1:22:52.599 the you from this side of the pond, looking at 1:22:52.600 --> 1:22:55.720 the government, etcetera, to what degree is it a factor? 1:22:55.720 --> 1:22:59.360 To what degree was it bungled by either Mueller, Pelosi, 1:22:59.640 --> 1:23:03.000 Shoe or what happened? What and what should have happened? 1:23:03.240 --> 1:23:06.720 They all really screwed up. Like I was getting incredibly 1:23:06.720 --> 1:23:10.360 worried in the months leading up to November twenty six 1:23:10.600 --> 1:23:13.160 because I saw clearly what was happening, like when Trump 1:23:13.640 --> 1:23:16.680 asked Russia to get him Hillary Clinton's emails at a 1:23:16.720 --> 1:23:20.080 press conference and then nothing was done after that. Um, 1:23:20.120 --> 1:23:22.120 I was like, they're they're not going to do anything 1:23:22.160 --> 1:23:24.000 about this. They're going to let this happen. And I 1:23:24.080 --> 1:23:26.640 knew that, at least for you know, the Kremlin. The 1:23:26.680 --> 1:23:29.320 ambition was to turn the US into something like a 1:23:29.320 --> 1:23:32.519 a proxy state of Russia. And I knew that for um, 1:23:32.760 --> 1:23:35.360 you know, these organized criminal bodies, this is going to 1:23:35.439 --> 1:23:39.440 be a windfall. And I still don't understand the dereliction 1:23:39.479 --> 1:23:43.080 of duty in the Obama administration because they were warned, 1:23:43.240 --> 1:23:46.280 you know, um, they knew that Russia was after them. 1:23:46.280 --> 1:23:49.280 They had hacked by that time, the State Department, the 1:23:49.360 --> 1:23:51.920 d o D, the d n C, the r n Z. 1:23:52.280 --> 1:23:54.720 They had hacked like every governmental body. And then we 1:23:54.760 --> 1:23:57.840 found out in twenty eight that Russia had infiltrated the 1:23:57.880 --> 1:24:00.000 treasury and twenty I mean you found out in twenty 1:24:00.040 --> 1:24:04.520 eighteen that they had infiltrated the treasury. In the Obama administration, 1:24:04.760 --> 1:24:07.679 for reasons I still don't fully comprehend, did very little 1:24:07.720 --> 1:24:10.479 about this, and I don't think they necessarily welcomed it 1:24:10.600 --> 1:24:12.720 or approved of it. But they didn't stop it, and 1:24:12.720 --> 1:24:15.960 they didn't take it seriously, and the FBI did nothing 1:24:16.000 --> 1:24:18.719 to stop it either. Harry Reid, when he was sentate 1:24:18.760 --> 1:24:21.680 minority leader, sent a letter to James Comby in the 1:24:21.720 --> 1:24:25.040 summer of sixteen, saying you have to warn the American 1:24:25.080 --> 1:24:27.880 public about Russia and the election because they're planning to 1:24:28.000 --> 1:24:31.439 falsify the official results. And so when I saw that letter, 1:24:31.439 --> 1:24:34.120 which was an open letter, I was like, my God, 1:24:34.160 --> 1:24:36.479 Like for the Senate Minority leader to say that, that's 1:24:36.479 --> 1:24:39.600 an incredible statement. Why is no one in the press 1:24:39.600 --> 1:24:42.160 covering this or very few people, like why is this 1:24:42.280 --> 1:24:44.920 not on television? Why aren't we looking at this in 1:24:44.960 --> 1:24:48.400 the context of Trump's long relationship with the Russian mafia 1:24:48.680 --> 1:24:51.280 or Paul Manafort, who at that point, you know, had 1:24:51.320 --> 1:24:56.120 been working as a oligarch lackey for various Kremlin affiliated actors, Like, 1:24:56.439 --> 1:24:59.080 there were so many connections to look at. You know, 1:24:59.080 --> 1:25:01.559 there was also Wicki Weeks in its connection to Russia, 1:25:01.960 --> 1:25:04.840 and no one was doing anything. And I realized in October, like, 1:25:05.040 --> 1:25:08.000 they're just gonna let this happen. They're gonna just let 1:25:08.120 --> 1:25:10.280 him win. And then I don't know what the hell 1:25:10.439 --> 1:25:12.559 is going to happen to America, but it's not gonna 1:25:12.600 --> 1:25:15.519 be good. And then that's been the pattern since you know, Mueller, 1:25:15.600 --> 1:25:19.559 blewett Um. I think possibly intentionally, the Democrats have been 1:25:19.560 --> 1:25:23.680 incredibly timid. The Republicans are complicit. So yeah, you know 1:25:23.680 --> 1:25:25.640 when I say I don't think anyone's gonna save us, 1:25:25.680 --> 1:25:27.760 it's because I've seen all the people who were in 1:25:27.800 --> 1:25:31.040 a position to make a meaningful difference to protect us, 1:25:31.240 --> 1:25:33.800 they all refused to do so. Um And you know, 1:25:33.840 --> 1:25:36.840 I know that there are threats involved in bribes and blackmail, 1:25:36.920 --> 1:25:40.080 but you know, we're all we're all taking a risk here, 1:25:40.200 --> 1:25:42.240 Like I take a risk here just talking about this. 1:25:42.320 --> 1:25:44.200 So I kind of look at them with all of 1:25:44.280 --> 1:25:47.080 their private security and all their money and all their influence, 1:25:47.120 --> 1:25:49.599 and I'm like, come on, like, do the bare minimum 1:25:49.640 --> 1:25:52.400 for your country here, Like, I really don't understand how 1:25:52.479 --> 1:25:54.599 you think this is going to end up, because it's 1:25:54.600 --> 1:25:56.840 not gonna end up well for you in the end. Either, 1:25:57.040 --> 1:25:59.800 it's not gonna end up well for any of us. Oh, 1:26:00.400 --> 1:26:04.840 your book Hiding in Plain Site is very well documented. Okay, 1:26:04.920 --> 1:26:07.599 a lot of people they dash off a book, its theories, whatever, 1:26:07.920 --> 1:26:12.800 But you literally linking two things. People said, Okay, hey, 1:26:12.840 --> 1:26:15.120 why did no one pick up on these stories which 1:26:15.160 --> 1:26:17.120 you covered a little bit? And do you believe now 1:26:17.160 --> 1:26:19.960 that you delineated these things there will be a move 1:26:20.040 --> 1:26:22.720 on them. I don't know, because you know, there have 1:26:22.800 --> 1:26:25.760 been other best selling books kind of either on the 1:26:25.800 --> 1:26:28.920 subject You're related to it by David K. Johnston, Michael 1:26:29.439 --> 1:26:33.080 Malcolm Nance, Craig Unger on the Russian mafia aspect. You know, 1:26:33.120 --> 1:26:35.599 they they've laid this out and there's certainly been a 1:26:35.600 --> 1:26:39.120 lot of documentation of Trump's corruption and barkins Trump confesses 1:26:39.160 --> 1:26:40.640 to it all the time, like you don't have to 1:26:40.640 --> 1:26:42.519 look that hard, you know, he goes on Lester Hole 1:26:42.560 --> 1:26:44.760 and he's like, yeah, I committed obstruction and justice. And 1:26:45.280 --> 1:26:47.960 you know, Donald Trump Jr. Tweets out his emails that 1:26:48.000 --> 1:26:50.400 are very damning. So no one has acted on this 1:26:50.560 --> 1:26:52.600 even though it's in the public light. Um. You know, 1:26:52.640 --> 1:26:55.719 my book Hiding in Plain Site has has been very popular. 1:26:55.800 --> 1:26:57.400 It was, you know, it is a best seller on 1:26:57.479 --> 1:27:00.120 multiple lists. Uh. You know, I didn't notice though that 1:27:00.600 --> 1:27:02.720 you know, no one not no one would review it, 1:27:02.760 --> 1:27:05.200 but the standard places that would review a book put 1:27:05.200 --> 1:27:07.639 out by McMillan that's the best seller, Like the Times, 1:27:07.640 --> 1:27:09.960 with Watching and Post, they're not going near this thing 1:27:10.000 --> 1:27:13.240 because I think it's still taboo. And you know, the 1:27:13.280 --> 1:27:16.280 same thing is kind of true sometimes with television, people 1:27:16.280 --> 1:27:19.200 are very afraid of the subject. Like a natural place 1:27:19.320 --> 1:27:21.120 for all of these things that are in my book 1:27:21.160 --> 1:27:24.840 to be discussed was the impeachment hearings because it directly 1:27:25.479 --> 1:27:28.519 reflected what happened in you know, they tried to make 1:27:28.560 --> 1:27:32.200 about twenty nineteen and about Ukraine, but the background that 1:27:32.320 --> 1:27:36.839 was in Russia and Trump's long relationship with the Kremlin 1:27:36.960 --> 1:27:40.360 and the relationship of people in his circle like Giuliani, 1:27:40.479 --> 1:27:43.200 Roger stone mana for etcetera to the Kremlin, and of 1:27:43.240 --> 1:27:45.479 course the Muller Report. If they aren't going to do 1:27:45.520 --> 1:27:48.639 it an impeachment, it's hard for me to imagine them 1:27:48.680 --> 1:27:51.439 doing it now. And I hope that I am adding 1:27:51.479 --> 1:27:55.160 pressure or at least I'm educating, you know, average Americans 1:27:55.200 --> 1:27:57.599 on what the government should be telling them. Like I've 1:27:57.640 --> 1:27:59.559 had people write to me and they're like, this is 1:27:59.600 --> 1:28:01.679 what I thought at the Mueller Report would be like 1:28:01.680 --> 1:28:03.800 like this is the kind of information that I've been 1:28:03.800 --> 1:28:05.880 looking for, And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's been 1:28:05.920 --> 1:28:08.599 out there. Like I'm standing on the shoulders if many 1:28:08.640 --> 1:28:10.920 other people who have tried to tell this story, you know, 1:28:10.960 --> 1:28:13.559 and I'm good, I think at weaving these things together 1:28:13.640 --> 1:28:17.000 because they can be very complicated. But a lot of 1:28:17.040 --> 1:28:19.760 folks have been trying to get this out and officials 1:28:19.760 --> 1:28:23.080 have just refused to act on the information. Now, not 1:28:23.240 --> 1:28:28.559 only did Trump beat impeachment, he is systematically getting rid 1:28:28.560 --> 1:28:31.000 of people who are not loyalists, who are not only 1:28:31.200 --> 1:28:34.600 you know what he calls not only elected whatever or 1:28:34.640 --> 1:28:37.599 not not only part of his cabinet, but people who 1:28:37.600 --> 1:28:41.719 were part of the bureaucracy what he calls the deep state. 1:28:42.720 --> 1:28:45.439 We're just gonna let him get away with this. I mean, 1:28:45.640 --> 1:28:48.080 I wouldn't if I were if I were in charge, 1:28:48.160 --> 1:28:51.479 but I'm not. Um, you know, it's frustrating to me 1:28:51.560 --> 1:28:54.360 because there they act shocked every time this happens. Like 1:28:54.400 --> 1:28:58.000 I see these officials, senators, congressmen, what have you on 1:28:58.040 --> 1:29:00.960 Twitter and they're like, oh my god, I can't believe it. 1:29:01.000 --> 1:29:03.520 Can you believe that they just fired the ethics investigator? 1:29:03.560 --> 1:29:06.000 And I'm like, yeah, like where you've been? And I 1:29:06.040 --> 1:29:09.559 think that their tactic there is to feign shock, because 1:29:09.600 --> 1:29:12.800 if you are not shocked, then you have to enforce accountability. 1:29:12.800 --> 1:29:15.280 And if everything is a continual surprise to you, then 1:29:15.360 --> 1:29:17.439 no one is going to expect you to actually do 1:29:17.479 --> 1:29:20.080 your job. But I do expect them um to do 1:29:20.160 --> 1:29:23.240 their jobs, and I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. 1:29:23.320 --> 1:29:24.840 You know, as I said, I do have I have 1:29:24.960 --> 1:29:29.160 sympathy for our representatives because they're dealing with a mafia state. 1:29:29.200 --> 1:29:32.519 You know, these are very dangerous people. During the Impatient hearings, 1:29:32.560 --> 1:29:36.200 they admitted that Trump essentially ordered a hit on Marie Ivanovitch, 1:29:36.320 --> 1:29:40.040 the U S Ambassador Ukraine. The others who testified, Fiona Hill, 1:29:40.080 --> 1:29:44.000 Alexander Vinman. They had to have private security at the 1:29:44.400 --> 1:29:48.240 hearings for Manaphor and for Roger Stone. The judges were threatened, 1:29:48.320 --> 1:29:51.400 the jury was threatened, and there have been so many 1:29:52.000 --> 1:29:55.880 unexplained deaths, sudden deaths and murders. You know, if people 1:29:55.880 --> 1:29:59.800 like Jamalka shogi um throughout this administration. So yes, I 1:30:00.160 --> 1:30:02.400 that there are risks, but I don't think that you 1:30:02.400 --> 1:30:06.680 should get involved in politics and you know, run for 1:30:06.880 --> 1:30:09.720 office if you're not willing to take these people on. 1:30:09.880 --> 1:30:11.800 And there are exceptions to this. You know, there are 1:30:11.840 --> 1:30:14.479 people in government who have tried to take this on. 1:30:14.600 --> 1:30:17.479 I think, you know, Warren has been very outspoken about corruption. 1:30:17.800 --> 1:30:20.320 I think, you know, Adam Schiff, I've had some criticisms 1:30:20.360 --> 1:30:22.480 of him, But I think he was good during impeachment, 1:30:22.720 --> 1:30:25.080 and I think he wanted to say more. I often 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:28.000 sensed that tendency from these officials. They want to tell 1:30:28.040 --> 1:30:30.400 Americans the whole story. They want to be able to 1:30:30.439 --> 1:30:32.400 talk about the things that I talked about in my 1:30:32.520 --> 1:30:34.599 book and that others have talked about in their books. 1:30:34.600 --> 1:30:37.000 And it's astounding to me that since we all kind 1:30:37.000 --> 1:30:39.479 of know it, you know, it's out there now, that 1:30:39.560 --> 1:30:41.680 they still won't go down that road. And I'm not 1:30:41.720 --> 1:30:45.360 completely sure it's holding them back, whether it's greed, you know, 1:30:45.400 --> 1:30:50.600 maybe there's donors, donor money um that influences they're thinking threats, blackmail. 1:30:50.880 --> 1:30:53.080 But at this point, it's like we have a you know, 1:30:53.479 --> 1:30:57.120 a surreal, sort of lopsided sense of reality. We're on 1:30:57.120 --> 1:30:59.280 one hand, they're acting like everything is normal. We're just 1:30:59.280 --> 1:31:01.720 gonna have a reg year old election in November, and 1:31:01.800 --> 1:31:03.920 you know, we're not going to talk about this mafia stuff. 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:06.400 And then you see Trump just overtly acting like a 1:31:06.439 --> 1:31:08.720 mob boss, you know, shaking people down, like what he 1:31:08.720 --> 1:31:11.040 did to the governors, what he did to different states 1:31:11.120 --> 1:31:13.320 during the pandemic, where it's like you do what I say, 1:31:13.360 --> 1:31:15.840 or you don't get medical equipment. It's like, good God, 1:31:15.920 --> 1:31:18.040 how much clearer does it have to be that this 1:31:18.120 --> 1:31:20.320 is the mindset and that this is the behavior, and 1:31:20.320 --> 1:31:23.799 how dangerous this is to ordinary people, to sick people, 1:31:23.880 --> 1:31:26.920 to victims of this um and they still just they 1:31:26.960 --> 1:31:28.760 won't call it like it is. They won't call him 1:31:28.880 --> 1:31:32.000 a criminal. Uh. And then now there's a sort of 1:31:32.240 --> 1:31:34.600 agenda going on to try to flip this script to 1:31:34.640 --> 1:31:36.720 be like, oh, no, you know, it's really Biden that's 1:31:36.760 --> 1:31:39.559 the big threat. Biden's the criminal, and the media once 1:31:39.600 --> 1:31:41.880 again is falling into the scene trap that they did 1:31:42.000 --> 1:31:46.160 in Okay, you're other than Bill Maher, You're the only 1:31:46.240 --> 1:31:50.200 public figure I'm aware of. That said, even if he loses, 1:31:50.280 --> 1:31:53.400 Trump won't leave. Could he amplify that place? Yeah? I 1:31:53.479 --> 1:31:57.559 felt that way since because once an autocrat gets into power, 1:31:57.720 --> 1:31:59.880 and that is what Trump wants to be, they it's 1:32:00.120 --> 1:32:03.200 very difficult to get them out because they'll rewrite rules, 1:32:03.520 --> 1:32:07.160 they'll pack courts, they'll purge agencies, they put the conditions 1:32:07.160 --> 1:32:10.120 in place to make not leaving much easier. And he 1:32:10.160 --> 1:32:14.200 also violates norms. You know, we've seemed countlessly over the 1:32:14.280 --> 1:32:18.080 last four years. How much American democracy and its stability 1:32:18.280 --> 1:32:21.599 rests on norms and expectations of behavior that he has 1:32:21.680 --> 1:32:24.240 fine breaking because he has no sense of shame and 1:32:24.280 --> 1:32:26.080 he has no sense of you know, this is the 1:32:26.080 --> 1:32:27.800 way that things need to be done. This is the 1:32:27.840 --> 1:32:31.439 precedent for this sort of you know time. So if 1:32:31.479 --> 1:32:34.160 he loses a selection, if by some miracle we have 1:32:34.240 --> 1:32:37.160 a free and fair election Biden wins, he's just gonna 1:32:37.160 --> 1:32:39.439 say it's I legitimate. He's gonna say it's rigged, or 1:32:39.479 --> 1:32:41.320 he's gonna say, you know, the country can't afford to 1:32:41.400 --> 1:32:44.160 change right now because of coronavirus or whatever. And he 1:32:44.240 --> 1:32:47.000 won't go. And I think, you know, Michael cohen Um 1:32:47.080 --> 1:32:50.040 during his hearing in early twenty nineteen, he said the 1:32:50.080 --> 1:32:52.320 same thing, that Trump is refusing to go. And now 1:32:52.320 --> 1:32:54.599 we're hearing Kushner saying, oh, I don't know if there's 1:32:54.640 --> 1:32:57.599 going to be an election, and so yes, everyone should 1:32:57.600 --> 1:33:00.280 be very prepared for the possibility that he won't leave, 1:33:00.520 --> 1:33:02.280 and if it gets to the point where they're actually 1:33:02.280 --> 1:33:04.559 trying to take him out of power, that there will 1:33:04.560 --> 1:33:08.720 be violence on the streets of this country from his supporters. 1:33:08.800 --> 1:33:10.920 But I don't even think it's so much from his 1:33:11.040 --> 1:33:15.760 voters as from fanatics that have associated themselves with him, uh, 1:33:15.800 --> 1:33:17.880 you know, attached themselves to him, using him as a 1:33:17.960 --> 1:33:21.479 vehicle for their own causes, looking for violence. I think 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:24.519 we're going to have a very very difficult time between 1:33:24.720 --> 1:33:28.280 November and January. At the least, you know, if the 1:33:28.320 --> 1:33:31.720 Democrat were to lose outright for getting you know, jerrymandering 1:33:31.800 --> 1:33:36.879 and voter suppression whatever, it's it's much easier process for Trump. 1:33:37.280 --> 1:33:40.120 But if a Democrat were to win, if you were 1:33:40.200 --> 1:33:44.240 advising Biden appears to be the candidate, Uh, if you 1:33:44.280 --> 1:33:47.360 were advising Biden and the d n C, what would 1:33:47.400 --> 1:33:50.639 you tell them to do in terms of protecting election 1:33:50.720 --> 1:33:54.439 security or just in general in general? Well, I would 1:33:54.439 --> 1:33:56.280 tell him right now he needs to come out with 1:33:56.320 --> 1:33:59.200 a coalition. Like it cannot be just about Biden. Like 1:33:59.240 --> 1:34:01.800 Trump is a he has a personality cold and I 1:34:01.800 --> 1:34:04.240 think it would be effective for the Democrats if they 1:34:04.280 --> 1:34:07.240 presented themselves as a group, you know, including others who 1:34:07.360 --> 1:34:10.920 ran for president, people like Warren Sanders, uh, you know, 1:34:10.960 --> 1:34:12.680 even the ones they didn't like quite as much, like 1:34:12.680 --> 1:34:15.200 Buddha judge, you know, to to present themselves as we 1:34:15.280 --> 1:34:18.080 are a group, we are public servants. We are creating 1:34:18.120 --> 1:34:21.519 policy for you, we are serving you. And I think others, 1:34:21.600 --> 1:34:24.040 you know that would be useful here, maybe Stacy Abrams 1:34:24.080 --> 1:34:29.680 because she does understand election integrity, Alexandria, Alexandria Acossio Cortes Um, 1:34:29.800 --> 1:34:32.200 they should do that. He should announce his VP choice, 1:34:32.240 --> 1:34:34.519 he should announce his cabinet, and then they need to 1:34:34.520 --> 1:34:37.840 work very much on election integrity. And now we have 1:34:37.880 --> 1:34:40.360 coronavirus um, so I think they need to move to 1:34:40.439 --> 1:34:43.160 voting by mail. They need to lock that down. It 1:34:43.200 --> 1:34:46.439 can't be something we're debating in September October, like gee, 1:34:46.600 --> 1:34:48.280 am I gonna cast my vote? Like they need to 1:34:48.320 --> 1:34:51.600 have that settled now so that Trump can't do legitimize it. 1:34:51.640 --> 1:34:55.200 And also just some people can vote without risking their lives. 1:34:55.240 --> 1:34:57.719 And then there's the other problems of you know, voter 1:34:58.040 --> 1:35:02.479 ID laws being abused for an interference, hackable machines for 1:35:02.520 --> 1:35:05.519 those who are voting electronically, like they should have been 1:35:05.560 --> 1:35:07.800 on top of this stuff years ago. But you know, 1:35:08.000 --> 1:35:10.960 I I think that even though they weren't, there's no 1:35:11.040 --> 1:35:13.080 time like the president, so I would include I would 1:35:13.160 --> 1:35:17.040 encourage them to be transparent with the American public, be like, 1:35:17.080 --> 1:35:19.160 this is what's happening, this is the problem, this is 1:35:19.160 --> 1:35:21.400 how we're gonna fix it. None of this little behind 1:35:21.439 --> 1:35:23.679 the scenes meetings, none of this like we're too good 1:35:23.720 --> 1:35:26.360 to talk to her own constituents kind of attitude, Like 1:35:26.600 --> 1:35:29.120 just talk straight, and I think people would be appreciative 1:35:29.120 --> 1:35:32.200 of that. Okay, what about terror read irrelevant of whether 1:35:32.200 --> 1:35:35.719 it happened or not. The Republicans do have a good 1:35:35.800 --> 1:35:38.920 point that the Democrats squeezed out everybody if there was 1:35:38.960 --> 1:35:41.479 a hint, you know, Al Frankin, who was a great 1:35:41.520 --> 1:35:45.679 senator or whatever. So what's your viewpoint on this? How 1:35:45.720 --> 1:35:48.599 should he the left handle the problem that the right 1:35:48.720 --> 1:35:51.760 is very unified for the left to win, it's a 1:35:51.760 --> 1:35:55.760 big tent. But because of political correctness and all kinds 1:35:55.800 --> 1:35:59.679 of subgroups, they end up causing their own problems, which 1:35:59.680 --> 1:36:02.240 ali and they're people, never mind the people on the 1:36:02.280 --> 1:36:04.920 other side. Yeah, I mean with terror read, you know, 1:36:05.280 --> 1:36:08.320 she's a person, and I hate every time this happens. 1:36:08.320 --> 1:36:10.320 I hate having to see a woman, having to see 1:36:10.360 --> 1:36:12.680 a person being used as a political pawn and this 1:36:12.800 --> 1:36:15.400 sort of like what about is um and back and forth, 1:36:15.479 --> 1:36:17.400 Like you know, I do think with Trump as I 1:36:17.479 --> 1:36:19.679 lay out in the book, we have an extreme problem 1:36:19.840 --> 1:36:23.240 of sexual abuse, sexual assault connections to people like Epstein. 1:36:23.439 --> 1:36:25.800 It doesn't mean, though, that what Biden did is not 1:36:25.880 --> 1:36:28.800 a problem, and there is a pattern of sexual harassment, 1:36:29.000 --> 1:36:31.760 and I think that he needs to be upfront about that. 1:36:31.880 --> 1:36:35.120 I mean, honestly, I am not completely convinced by Tara 1:36:35.120 --> 1:36:37.400 Reid's story. I'm also not unconvinced by it, and I 1:36:37.479 --> 1:36:39.760 don't want to attack her like I hate that. You know, 1:36:39.880 --> 1:36:42.639 we're in this position where we have to evaluate, Um, 1:36:42.680 --> 1:36:45.000 you know, another person who's put her whole life on 1:36:45.040 --> 1:36:47.800 the line by being in the public eye. Um, But 1:36:47.880 --> 1:36:50.040 I think that he needs to be uh, you know, 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:54.960 straightforward and not defensive and you know, talk about his 1:36:55.040 --> 1:36:58.000 own behavior. I mean, I think, I mean, in a way, 1:36:58.000 --> 1:37:01.360 it's like I say, honestly, is honesty is the best policy, 1:37:01.640 --> 1:37:04.800 knowing full well that the GOP always exploits it. But 1:37:04.880 --> 1:37:08.160 I don't see a way out of this. I think admitting, um, 1:37:08.200 --> 1:37:11.719 you know, personal or institutional failures can actually be helpful 1:37:11.760 --> 1:37:14.680 when you have a population that is so disillusion from 1:37:14.720 --> 1:37:17.960 the barrage of lies and propaganda. You know, a lot 1:37:17.960 --> 1:37:20.439 of people fell for Trump because they fell for this 1:37:20.520 --> 1:37:23.679 illusion of authenticity. They thought that he was being honest, 1:37:23.760 --> 1:37:25.760 even if he was being awful. They thought it was 1:37:25.800 --> 1:37:28.080 some sort of awful honesty, which is not you know, 1:37:28.120 --> 1:37:30.519 he's a he's a chronic liar. But I think that 1:37:30.520 --> 1:37:33.240 that just uh as a stance is a way to go. 1:37:33.520 --> 1:37:36.639 Who should be the vice presidential candidate and who will be? 1:37:36.840 --> 1:37:38.559 I don't know. I feel like he's going to make 1:37:38.560 --> 1:37:40.960 a bad decision. I mean, I think he's gonna pick 1:37:41.040 --> 1:37:45.639 like Biden Junior type. A lot of people talking about Warren, 1:37:45.800 --> 1:37:49.799 you know, who was my preferred candidate to as VP. UM. 1:37:49.840 --> 1:37:52.519 I would be content with that, but I basically like, 1:37:52.560 --> 1:37:54.840 I want Warren to be like the Dick Cheney of 1:37:54.880 --> 1:37:58.160 this whole administration, Like I want her plans implemented. I 1:37:58.200 --> 1:38:00.960 want her behind the scenes calling the shots. One thing 1:38:00.960 --> 1:38:04.320 that's very unusual about Biden is that he is so elderly, 1:38:04.439 --> 1:38:06.840 and he's spoken about how he might not be there 1:38:07.040 --> 1:38:09.200 for a second term. So whoever he picks as a 1:38:09.320 --> 1:38:13.360 VP is potentially, uh, you know, the next presidential candidate, 1:38:13.360 --> 1:38:15.280 and we may be going through all this again in 1:38:15.320 --> 1:38:17.720 four years. Honestly, if we're lucky, we'll be going through 1:38:17.720 --> 1:38:21.840 this again with having had a democratic um administration. But 1:38:22.080 --> 1:38:24.360 I think that she's very knowledgeable and at the least 1:38:24.680 --> 1:38:28.200 her plans should be implemented. I'm worried that, as usual, 1:38:28.280 --> 1:38:30.800 the d N C um in the powers that we 1:38:30.920 --> 1:38:34.320 are not going to recognize the need for someone, uh, 1:38:34.439 --> 1:38:38.240 you know, who understands the severity of the corruption that 1:38:38.280 --> 1:38:41.839 we've experienced, the severity the economic crisis that has plans 1:38:41.880 --> 1:38:44.679 to fix it. Uh. They often don't seem to recognize 1:38:44.720 --> 1:38:47.280 the need to be inclusive in that respect. Like I 1:38:47.320 --> 1:38:50.600 don't like how they're dismissing not just Warren, but Sanders 1:38:50.640 --> 1:38:54.000 and and his voters as well, because especially during coronavirus, 1:38:54.040 --> 1:38:57.120 when you have you know, unemployment hovering around twenty five 1:38:57.160 --> 1:39:00.120 per cent, you know, you need people who understand what 1:39:00.200 --> 1:39:02.800 it's like to live through poverty and how difficult it 1:39:02.880 --> 1:39:05.559 was to get by even before this crisis came along. 1:39:05.680 --> 1:39:08.440 So I don't know, that's why I want to coalition. 1:39:08.560 --> 1:39:11.720 I want as many like good minds out there as 1:39:11.760 --> 1:39:14.599 possible and as little ego as possible. Like I'm sick 1:39:14.640 --> 1:39:17.559 of these political personality colts. I think they're weird, first 1:39:17.560 --> 1:39:19.400 of all, Like, why are you getting like this over 1:39:19.439 --> 1:39:22.160 a politician of all people. But they're also just damaging. 1:39:22.160 --> 1:39:25.800 They're damaging the democracy. Going a little inside baseball. Is 1:39:25.840 --> 1:39:30.320 Warren the nonstarter because Massachusetts presently have as a Republican 1:39:30.360 --> 1:39:35.280 governor who most probably would uh pick a Republican to 1:39:35.560 --> 1:39:39.200 fill Warren's seat. I think if they're looking at at 1:39:39.240 --> 1:39:41.840 it that way, then they're nuts. I mean, you know, 1:39:41.920 --> 1:39:44.479 I don't necessarily think the Democrats are going to get 1:39:44.520 --> 1:39:47.400 the Senate anyway, So you're like placing a weird bet. 1:39:47.600 --> 1:39:50.200 But you need the top people to be in this 1:39:50.320 --> 1:39:53.240 cabinet in some way to make these big decisions because 1:39:53.280 --> 1:39:55.920 whoever wins this thing, like if it's you know, assuming 1:39:55.920 --> 1:39:58.519 it's fight, and all he's going to be doing is 1:39:58.600 --> 1:40:01.120 digging us out of the hell hole that we are 1:40:01.160 --> 1:40:03.599 in because of Trump. You know, where you have entire 1:40:03.800 --> 1:40:06.320 departments that have been dismantled, Like we don't have a 1:40:06.360 --> 1:40:09.280 State Department. We have a zillion acting uh you know, 1:40:09.439 --> 1:40:12.599 secretaries of this, secretaries of that. We have a gutted 1:40:12.640 --> 1:40:16.240 and purged FBI. We have intelligence that's been compromised, like 1:40:16.439 --> 1:40:19.840 we've had idiots like Jared Krishner going around selling state 1:40:19.920 --> 1:40:23.559 secrets like the ramifications of what they've done are going 1:40:23.600 --> 1:40:25.680 to be there for the rest of my life. Like 1:40:25.760 --> 1:40:28.519 I don't expect to ever see this stuff resolved. And 1:40:28.560 --> 1:40:30.920 we have things like climate change, we have these existential 1:40:30.960 --> 1:40:34.040 threats hovering abous. We need the top people, and I 1:40:34.080 --> 1:40:37.160 think that Warren would be better in uh the government, 1:40:37.240 --> 1:40:41.439 whether as VP or treasurer or something. Then in the Senate. Um, 1:40:41.479 --> 1:40:44.400 I think in the Senate they need like attack dog types. 1:40:44.520 --> 1:40:47.200 I honestly think you know, Sanders is usable in that regard. 1:40:47.520 --> 1:40:49.479 In the Senate, they need somebody who will tell Mitch 1:40:49.520 --> 1:40:52.080 McConnell to go uh. I don't know if I could 1:40:52.080 --> 1:40:55.120 swear on your show to to fund himself. I mean 1:40:55.160 --> 1:40:56.720 it's like, you know, they need to time to get 1:40:56.720 --> 1:40:58.080 lost and that they're not gonna put up with his 1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:00.360 ship anymore. Like they need, uh, they need to get 1:41:00.400 --> 1:41:03.840 in the ring for the Republican Party. They need a long, 1:41:04.280 --> 1:41:06.639 you know, kind of kind of rant and just somebody 1:41:06.680 --> 1:41:08.640 to take them down. But when it comes to like 1:41:08.680 --> 1:41:10.680 the top people, when it comes to the cabinet, they 1:41:10.680 --> 1:41:13.240 need the finest minds and they need the best plans 1:41:13.280 --> 1:41:16.719 because we are in for such a terrible uh four 1:41:16.840 --> 1:41:19.280 years even in the best of circumstances. And I've got 1:41:19.320 --> 1:41:22.240 no illusions about that. Let's just assume for the sake 1:41:22.240 --> 1:41:26.720 of argument, Biden does win. What happens with all the 1:41:26.760 --> 1:41:29.800 Trump constituents. We saw that Trump wanted to open the 1:41:29.840 --> 1:41:33.200 country for economic reasons. He got all these crazy people 1:41:33.200 --> 1:41:36.479 to protest in uh front of governors, in front of 1:41:36.479 --> 1:41:40.080 the state houses, even though statistically more people wanted to 1:41:40.080 --> 1:41:43.800 stay home. So if a Democrat, i e. Biden, wins 1:41:43.800 --> 1:41:47.280 the presidency, I don't anticipate all the Trump supporters gonna 1:41:47.360 --> 1:41:50.799 roll over. No, And I think it's less the Trump 1:41:50.960 --> 1:41:54.200 voters or supporters than this very fanatical base. And I 1:41:54.240 --> 1:41:56.559 was reading an article the other day about how, you know, 1:41:56.600 --> 1:42:00.400 these little protests like open up Michigan, Liberate this libery 1:42:00.439 --> 1:42:03.720 that have spread the virus. But in the article it 1:42:03.800 --> 1:42:06.400 was about how it's basically the same band of like 1:42:06.439 --> 1:42:10.280 a few hundred people moving from state to state having 1:42:10.320 --> 1:42:13.439 these protests. These protests are heavily AstroTurf. Like I don't 1:42:13.439 --> 1:42:15.600 doubt that there are people who are genuine you know, 1:42:15.640 --> 1:42:18.639 there are people joining in that genuinely they want stuff open. 1:42:18.680 --> 1:42:21.360 They're very upset, and I understand that to some degree, 1:42:21.520 --> 1:42:24.040 but a lot of this is fake. Uh and uh, 1:42:24.280 --> 1:42:26.759 I think that that's kind of true of the Trump base. 1:42:26.960 --> 1:42:30.160 It's the base is very small. The voters are are 1:42:30.320 --> 1:42:32.240 larger group than the base, but the base can be 1:42:32.560 --> 1:42:35.640 riled up to violence. I worry about the q and 1:42:35.760 --> 1:42:38.640 on phenomenon, where we really seem to have a like 1:42:38.680 --> 1:42:43.240 a religious cult forming, not quite around Trump, but about 1:42:43.280 --> 1:42:47.559 ideas of uh, you know, kind of what's a big plan, uh, 1:42:47.720 --> 1:42:50.559 mythical character. I mean, all of these are signs of 1:42:50.600 --> 1:42:55.080 like a collapsing society where institutions have completely filled the public. 1:42:55.200 --> 1:42:58.320 So I don't completely blame them, but I think that 1:42:58.360 --> 1:43:01.080 they could some of them can be spurred to violence. 1:43:01.120 --> 1:43:04.880 I think some of Trump's other followers they're already looking 1:43:04.920 --> 1:43:07.960 for violence. I remember in sixteen when I was covering 1:43:08.000 --> 1:43:10.320 the election. You know, here in Missouri, there are a 1:43:10.360 --> 1:43:13.000 lot of people that thought, you know, Trump would win, 1:43:13.400 --> 1:43:16.439 but he'd be robbed, like Hillary would just take over 1:43:16.600 --> 1:43:18.479 and she'd be the president and Trump would be able 1:43:18.479 --> 1:43:20.840 to get an office. And they were ready for civil war. 1:43:21.120 --> 1:43:24.360 They had bought all these guns, all these weapons, and 1:43:24.360 --> 1:43:26.840 what people don't understand, I think is that this is 1:43:26.880 --> 1:43:30.200 expensive like they made an investment in civil war and 1:43:30.200 --> 1:43:32.240 then they didn't get to have one, and all of 1:43:32.240 --> 1:43:34.479 those weapons have just been sitting in their homes and 1:43:34.479 --> 1:43:37.040 they've been waiting for the opportunity. And you know, Trump 1:43:37.120 --> 1:43:40.479 encourages this. He encourages violence, and so do the people 1:43:40.520 --> 1:43:43.560 in his camp, and he has a great propaganda apparatus, 1:43:43.600 --> 1:43:46.000 and that's one of the reasons I think it's gonna 1:43:46.040 --> 1:43:49.120 get dangerous. I think if Biden wins, it's dangerous. And 1:43:49.160 --> 1:43:52.320 even if he wins, I think it'll be like sixteen 1:43:52.360 --> 1:43:54.719 when hate crimes went through the roof. I think he'll 1:43:54.720 --> 1:43:57.000 exalt in it and I'll see you as a mandate 1:43:57.120 --> 1:44:01.479 for state sanctioned brutality, and he'll get up a notch um, 1:44:01.520 --> 1:44:03.200 you know, as soon as that happens, And you know 1:44:03.200 --> 1:44:05.840 I do fear for that. Let's, just for the sake 1:44:05.840 --> 1:44:10.599 of argument, say that Trump outright wins. Another four years 1:44:10.600 --> 1:44:13.479 go by, then what happens. I don't think that will 1:44:13.520 --> 1:44:16.640 be a democracy anymore. I'm not sure that, you know, 1:44:17.360 --> 1:44:19.320 like the conversation you and I are having now, I 1:44:19.320 --> 1:44:21.479 don't know if that will be possible. I feel like 1:44:21.520 --> 1:44:24.360 there will be an attempt to regulate speech and regulate 1:44:24.400 --> 1:44:26.360 the media. And it's not going to be some sort 1:44:26.400 --> 1:44:29.960 of rewriting the First Amendment, UM, making new laws. It 1:44:30.000 --> 1:44:33.200 will be through excessive LiTi gaiation. It will be through 1:44:33.320 --> 1:44:37.160 control of social media, of the architecture of the Internet. 1:44:37.360 --> 1:44:41.200 It will basically be through severing connections of people, um, 1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:43.960 you know, so that we're able to have straightforward conversations 1:44:44.160 --> 1:44:47.400 and share information. I worry about digital archives. I worry 1:44:47.400 --> 1:44:50.439 about history being rewritten. I mean, one reason I was 1:44:50.479 --> 1:44:52.920 willing to write a print book is I wanted it 1:44:52.960 --> 1:44:55.920 in print, like I wanted an analog version of my 1:44:55.960 --> 1:44:59.080 work preserved, because I don't know what the digital future 1:44:59.080 --> 1:45:01.760 will hold. And I you know, I'm I'm predicting a 1:45:01.880 --> 1:45:04.400 somewhat based on what Trump and his cohorts say, but 1:45:04.439 --> 1:45:08.880 also on the path that's been taken in Hungary, in Russia, UM, 1:45:08.880 --> 1:45:12.080 in Turkey and other countries that were uh, you know, 1:45:12.360 --> 1:45:15.519 democratic to some extent, just as as recently as five 1:45:15.600 --> 1:45:19.880 years ago and are now autocracies where journalists and intellectuals 1:45:19.920 --> 1:45:23.200 and opposition leaders are locked up. I see that as 1:45:23.200 --> 1:45:26.400 a possible path here. UM. And we are different, you know, 1:45:26.439 --> 1:45:30.200 We've had a long history of you know democratic traditions, 1:45:30.240 --> 1:45:33.519 but you know, autocracy moves fast. And the people who 1:45:33.520 --> 1:45:36.080 always say it can't happen here, um, they tend to 1:45:36.080 --> 1:45:37.800 be the ones that it happens to. And I don't 1:45:37.800 --> 1:45:41.080 think that we're adequately prepared. And again, you know, I 1:45:41.120 --> 1:45:43.360 hope I'm wrong. Um, And then of course I have 1:45:43.439 --> 1:45:45.880 to you know, throw the wrench into this, which is coronavirus. 1:45:45.960 --> 1:45:48.680 Like we're responding to a pandemic in the midst of 1:45:48.680 --> 1:45:52.000 this that makes everything very hard to predict, especially with 1:45:52.040 --> 1:45:56.040 the economic devastation. You know that it that it's created. Okay, 1:45:56.160 --> 1:46:00.840 how important is privacy an issue? And where should the 1:46:00.880 --> 1:46:05.080 line be? According to you? I I think it's very important. 1:46:05.200 --> 1:46:07.200 It's another reason I like Warren as I feel like 1:46:07.240 --> 1:46:11.120 she addressed this. I worry about privacy, uh, in conjunction 1:46:11.160 --> 1:46:16.120 with monopolies, with these extremely powerful social media companies that 1:46:16.200 --> 1:46:19.240 have access to our information and that don't share with 1:46:19.400 --> 1:46:22.839 us how that information is being used, how it's being gathered. 1:46:23.200 --> 1:46:26.080 I worry about, um, you know, how kids are growing 1:46:26.160 --> 1:46:28.920 up with this, Like that's been a challenge as a parent, Like, 1:46:29.160 --> 1:46:31.400 you know, what do I allow them to do? What 1:46:31.560 --> 1:46:34.240 kind of information is there? And they always think I'm nuts. 1:46:34.240 --> 1:46:35.920 You know, like when my daughter wanted to have a 1:46:35.960 --> 1:46:38.200 TikTok account and I said, you know, to her and 1:46:38.280 --> 1:46:40.559 to her friends who are over, no, you guys cannot 1:46:40.600 --> 1:46:42.960 go on TikTok because you know that your information is 1:46:42.960 --> 1:46:44.920 going to go to the Chinese government. And they're looking 1:46:44.960 --> 1:46:46.880 at me like I'm like Dale Gribble on King of 1:46:46.920 --> 1:46:49.479 the Hill, like you know, it's crazy conspiracy theory, mom, 1:46:49.600 --> 1:46:51.960 And I'm like, no, I'm serious, Like the Chinese on 1:46:52.120 --> 1:46:54.760 TikTok and whatever you put on there, I'm not saying 1:46:54.760 --> 1:46:56.519 they're going to use it, but you know, they will 1:46:56.760 --> 1:47:00.320 technically own your image, they will own your content. And 1:47:00.360 --> 1:47:02.640 that's true not just with China, but with UM, you know, 1:47:02.720 --> 1:47:06.280 obviously with American companies and with all these international uh 1:47:06.439 --> 1:47:09.439 you know, corporations as well. It's very risky. I don't 1:47:09.439 --> 1:47:11.479 know what they're going to do. But I look at 1:47:11.680 --> 1:47:14.960 that states like China, you know, which is a surveillance state, 1:47:15.000 --> 1:47:18.000 which is doing stuff with facial idea, UM you know, 1:47:18.000 --> 1:47:20.960 which is uh having things like a social credit system, 1:47:21.240 --> 1:47:24.639 and I wonder how inspired America is going to be 1:47:24.720 --> 1:47:27.160 by those ideas and whether they're going to try to 1:47:27.200 --> 1:47:30.000 implement something like that, and that will get used to 1:47:30.040 --> 1:47:33.240 being tracked. We won't have the expectation of privacy anymore. 1:47:33.439 --> 1:47:36.000 I've already watched that happen. I think over the last 1:47:36.040 --> 1:47:39.519 ten years, the expectation of privacy has really kind of 1:47:39.640 --> 1:47:43.439 slipped away. Um, people don't demand it. They're now used 1:47:43.439 --> 1:47:45.840 to having their photo all over the place because people 1:47:45.840 --> 1:47:48.240 have digital cameras and that makes it so much easier. 1:47:48.280 --> 1:47:51.679 And um, I mean it's a tough thing. I don't 1:47:51.680 --> 1:47:54.280 like the idea of people living so that they inhabit 1:47:54.320 --> 1:47:57.880 a persona. And I'm hoping that the younger generation, the 1:47:57.920 --> 1:47:59.720 one that's just sort of used to this, maybe they 1:47:59.720 --> 1:48:02.200 just don't give a ship. Maybe they won't be constantly 1:48:02.200 --> 1:48:05.639 grooming themselves to please others online. Maybe they'll just feel 1:48:05.680 --> 1:48:08.160 like they can be themselves and if someone doesn't like it, 1:48:08.200 --> 1:48:10.639 then too bad. Like I hope that that's the attitude 1:48:10.680 --> 1:48:13.759 they take, because I've watched my generation could toward itself 1:48:13.920 --> 1:48:16.160 into trying to fit some sort of image, you know, 1:48:16.280 --> 1:48:19.280 for social media, for the public eye. Like we've all 1:48:19.360 --> 1:48:22.200 been forced to be micro celebrities. And I don't think that, 1:48:22.360 --> 1:48:24.960 you know, anyone really wanted that, so if we look 1:48:25.000 --> 1:48:27.920 at the world at large, the thought was with the 1:48:27.920 --> 1:48:31.280 fall of the Wall, the breakup of the Soviet Union, 1:48:31.880 --> 1:48:35.200 that the world would turn to democracy. That's one of 1:48:35.200 --> 1:48:40.720 the rationalizations for the abortion in a ran Okay, if 1:48:40.760 --> 1:48:46.400 you predict the world at large, is democracy a dying dream? 1:48:46.439 --> 1:48:49.240 I mean, I think it's a dream it's worth fighting for. 1:48:49.439 --> 1:48:51.400 Like that's, you know, one of those things I don't 1:48:51.600 --> 1:48:54.519 give up on. I want a democratic system. It's deeply 1:48:54.560 --> 1:48:56.439 important to me, and so you know, I'll fight till 1:48:56.479 --> 1:48:59.080 the bitter end. And I think that many others will too. 1:48:59.320 --> 1:49:02.000 I do think that a lot of countries that people 1:49:02.040 --> 1:49:06.320 thought would remain democratic have turned quite quickly, um, you know, 1:49:06.439 --> 1:49:10.040 towards authoritarianism. And that includes the ones that you know, 1:49:10.080 --> 1:49:13.639 we're dominated by the Soviet Union, places like Poland, um 1:49:13.760 --> 1:49:16.519 or Hungry that you know, had a hard fought freedom 1:49:16.560 --> 1:49:20.880 in nine and onward and then now have reverted, you know, 1:49:20.960 --> 1:49:24.920 to this new kind of authoritarian rule. It's easier to 1:49:24.960 --> 1:49:28.080 happen than you think. I think that whatever will get 1:49:28.160 --> 1:49:30.759 it's not gonna look like a replica of the Soviet 1:49:30.840 --> 1:49:33.120 Union or of Nazi Germany. It's going to be a 1:49:33.160 --> 1:49:34.560 new thing. And I do think it is going to 1:49:34.640 --> 1:49:38.920 have this big digital surveillance component. But I think, um, 1:49:38.960 --> 1:49:42.439 you know, democracy literally translates to the power of the people, 1:49:42.720 --> 1:49:45.280 and I hope that everyone remembers that. I hope they 1:49:45.320 --> 1:49:48.479 remember that they, as Americans, are entitled to that. You know, 1:49:48.520 --> 1:49:52.400 it's not optional. Public servants exist to serve us, They 1:49:52.439 --> 1:49:55.040 exist to uphold the Constitution, and it should not be 1:49:55.080 --> 1:49:57.439 something that they can pick or choose to do. They 1:49:57.479 --> 1:49:59.960 have to do it. Um. And I think that expectation 1:50:00.000 --> 1:50:02.760 stations have been lowered in part because Congress has so 1:50:02.840 --> 1:50:06.160 completely failed us. But those expectations, uh, you know, those 1:50:06.200 --> 1:50:10.479 demands need to be constant, even if they're not being met. Um. 1:50:10.560 --> 1:50:12.280 You know, we need to expect more of them, and 1:50:12.320 --> 1:50:15.200 we need to be prepared for a long fight ourselves. 1:50:15.600 --> 1:50:17.680 You've also said, and I may be getting it a 1:50:17.680 --> 1:50:20.679 little bit wrong, that you don't have hope. And it's 1:50:20.720 --> 1:50:23.920 not about hope. No, I mean, I don't have hope. 1:50:24.240 --> 1:50:26.720 I don't have hopelessness. It's just not the way that 1:50:27.120 --> 1:50:28.960 I look at the world. I mean, I guess I 1:50:28.960 --> 1:50:31.920 think of hope is like sitting around and waiting for 1:50:31.960 --> 1:50:34.559 something to change, or just sort of like wishing. I mean, 1:50:34.560 --> 1:50:37.639 maybe I have faith, you know, I have conviction, you know, obviously, 1:50:37.640 --> 1:50:40.519 I know what kind of governmental system I support, and 1:50:40.560 --> 1:50:42.360 I know what my values are, and I know what 1:50:42.400 --> 1:50:44.519 my morals are, and I know how I feel when 1:50:44.520 --> 1:50:47.680 I see people flavorrantly violating them. Um, you know, and 1:50:47.680 --> 1:50:51.240 I'll fight, but uh, I just I don't know. It's 1:50:51.240 --> 1:50:52.920 hard for me when people are like, what's going to 1:50:53.000 --> 1:50:56.040 happen next? Or do you feel you know, optimistic or pessimistic. 1:50:56.240 --> 1:50:57.920 That's not the way I view it. I feel like 1:50:58.000 --> 1:51:01.040 when everything's collapsing, and I like everything's kind of been 1:51:01.040 --> 1:51:04.400 collapsing my whole adult life, then you cling to your principles, 1:51:04.520 --> 1:51:06.599 you know, you cling to your conscience because you can 1:51:06.600 --> 1:51:09.920 control that. Like I can't control, you know, who's gonna 1:51:09.920 --> 1:51:13.400 win in November, at least unilaterally. And I can't control 1:51:13.439 --> 1:51:15.360 what's going to happen to the economy. But I can 1:51:15.360 --> 1:51:18.240 control how I treat other people. And I can control, 1:51:18.400 --> 1:51:21.479 you know, what my participation in this kind of you 1:51:21.520 --> 1:51:23.639 know world is going to be, and how I try 1:51:23.640 --> 1:51:28.200 to leverage you know, what little power advantages I've accumulated, 1:51:28.240 --> 1:51:29.600 you know, That's what I try to do with my 1:51:29.680 --> 1:51:32.639 writing and with my podcast. That's my choice. And so 1:51:32.960 --> 1:51:35.360 I would encourage people to think of it that way 1:51:35.400 --> 1:51:38.519 because then you you have a little more control over 1:51:38.560 --> 1:51:41.519 the situation. You know, you can't control the situation, but 1:51:41.600 --> 1:51:43.880 you can control your your part in it. And you're 1:51:43.920 --> 1:51:46.800 not just sitting around, you know, hoping that some sort 1:51:46.800 --> 1:51:50.360 of savior will intervene. Sir, your revelation and a beacon. 1:51:50.439 --> 1:51:52.800 You'd be surprised. The nature of being a writer is 1:51:52.880 --> 1:51:56.080 you don't really know what people think about your writing. 1:51:56.439 --> 1:51:59.439 And I wrote about you, and I was stunned the 1:51:59.479 --> 1:52:01.960 amount of feedback I got. People who are not only 1:52:02.040 --> 1:52:05.040 aware of you, but passionately aware of you. I mean, 1:52:05.439 --> 1:52:09.120 you click boxes that people didn't even think existed, one 1:52:09.240 --> 1:52:14.120 being in the Midwest, being of this demo, having a 1:52:14.240 --> 1:52:19.160 pH d in an era where education and intelligence are 1:52:19.240 --> 1:52:21.800 far from primary. So I thank you so much for 1:52:21.840 --> 1:52:24.559 taking the time to speak to my audience. Well, thank 1:52:24.560 --> 1:52:26.439 you so much for having me on. It's the pleasure 1:52:26.439 --> 1:52:29.559 talking with you. Until next time. This is Bob left 1:52:29.600 --> 1:52:29.880 Sets