1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Steps podcast. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: My guest today Sarah Kenjo, who is not only a 3 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: writer in the PhD Nea for Apology, but the guru 4 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 1: when it comes to the political world, especially from the 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: view in the heartland, from the gen X millennial borderline. Sarah, 6 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: good to have you here. Oh, thank you so much 7 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: for having me on. So let me be clear here, 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: because things change every day that we're doing this Tuesday, 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: the nineteen of May. But what's the viewpoint of the 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: coronavirus from your location right now? I mean allegedly from 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: my location. We don't have a high amount of cases, 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: and we've opened up the state, but they're not really 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: testing people. So people are kind of just, you know, 14 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: stumbling in the dark and hoping to not get infected. 15 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: But we're certainly not in as bad a position as 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: New York or l A or San Francisco, are these 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: big cities. Well, since in your new bestseller, Hiding in 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 1: Plain Site, you drilled down into the politics of Missouri, 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: now should I be saying Missouri or Missouri Missouri? I'm 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: in the Missouri part, trying to drive an hour south, 21 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: I'll be in Missouri okay, uh, the governor and the 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: legislature presently of what political party, oh, Republican, and our 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: governor is a non elected governor who replaced the previous 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: governor who had been tying up a woman in his basement, 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: photographing or a half naked embezzling funds, committing fraud, and 26 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: doing other stuff. So you know that this guy is 27 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: just more of a run of the mill Mike Pence 28 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: Aclyte type GOP guy. Well, you know, living on the 29 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: West Coast and tuning into national media on a regular basis, 30 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: like the New York Times, Washington Posting Walls Rejournal. Maybe 31 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: it's the news cycle, but it doesn't seem that there's 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: been a whole hell of a lot of news about 33 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: the scandal and the governorship in Missouri. Now I'm in 34 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: there briefly, was in eighteen, you know, the first time 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 1: he got arrested. Second time, it kind of you know, faded. Um. 36 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: I mean I thought it was a big deal, not 37 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: just as a resident of Missouri, but because I think 38 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: of Missouri as a microcosm for the US, which I 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: write about in Hiding in Plain Sight, but also the 40 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: governor Eric Righten's as a microcosm for what could happen 41 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: for Trump because he had just, you know, brazenly committed 42 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: a series of crimes. Everyone wanted him gone, his own 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: party wanted him gone because of the intensity of the corruption, 44 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: and he was just refusing to leave. And eventually, you know, 45 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: they did manage to get rid of him. And it's 46 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: really something when someone is too corrupt for the Missouri 47 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: goop um and and he left. However, I don't think 48 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: that will necessarily be the case with Trump, but I 49 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: saw it as kind of like a test run of 50 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: abusive power and criminal impunity. Okay, well, let's just start 51 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: with your state. What degree is jerrymandering a factor. It's 52 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: a huge factor. I mean, I think that's true with 53 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: almost any Republican state. But even more than jerrymandering, dar 54 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,679 Speaker 1: money is a factor. We have the highest amount of 55 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: dark money, and we are both you know, pretty expert. 56 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: Not all my audiences please explain dark money. Dark money 57 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: is just money that gets poured into a campaign where 58 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: you don't know the source. You don't know where it's 59 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: coming from, so you don't know what kind of special 60 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: interests or individuals are deciding to back this particular candidate. 61 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: And after citizens United Supreme Court ruling in two thousand 62 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: and ten, they basically decided there weren't going to be 63 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: limits on dark money, and until that point, states had 64 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: decided it individually. Missouri was particularly corrupt, to the point 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: that they said, you know, in Missouri, there's not even 66 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: such a thing as quid pro quote corruption because it's 67 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: so rampant. So we were kind of, you know, the 68 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: bell weather ahead of the curve on that one. UM. 69 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: And that's really what's infested our politics on a national levels. 70 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: It's not just that that politicians can be bought. We 71 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: don't know who's buying them. We don't know who's behind 72 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: find Uh. You know those billions of dollars. Well, since 73 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: you're an expert, the average person would say, wait, can't 74 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: people and companies only donate a limited amount? Can you 75 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: explain a little bit further, especially in Missouri, who is 76 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: raising these funds and how they're being dispersed. I mean, 77 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: there are certain big players. Um, you know, the the 78 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: guy in Missouri probably heard heard of Rex Sinkfeld. But 79 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, you see this um with other mega donors 80 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: throughout the US. UM. You know, there's ways of circumventing 81 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: these laws. There are loopholes, there are limitations, Um, if 82 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: you're an individual as to how much you can donate, 83 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: but you can form packs, you could form you know, 84 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: other kind of corporate bodies in order to get that 85 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: money flowing. And so that's been a problem nationwide and 86 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: they tried to clean it up in Missouri. They actually 87 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: the citizens of Missouri passed an initiative called Clean Missouri 88 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: that was supposed to get rid of jerrymandering, dark money, 89 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: all these other obstacles to democ grassy. Unfortunately, the legislature 90 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: is right now trying to strike it down. You know, 91 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: there's a trending hashtag You're called dirty Missouri, and you 92 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 1: know that's what that's what we are. We're dirty Missouri. Okay, 93 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: So the dark money coming into Missouri, does it tend 94 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: to be state money or national money? Well, it's hard 95 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: to tell, in part because it is dark money. UM, 96 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: I do think that, you know, there is a high 97 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: conglomeration of state interests. There are people in particular from 98 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: outside St. Louis that are interested in buying up properties 99 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: in St. Louis, managing the politics of St. Louis. I've 100 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: noticed that the national GOP kind of uses Missouri UM 101 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: as an experiment, like as a Petri dish for their operations. 102 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: This was true with Ted Cruz before it was true 103 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: with Trump. You saw Cambridge Analytica, you know, which is 104 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: that big company um, you know, located in the UK 105 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: and involved in Brexit that was doing data mining, UM, 106 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: you know, targeted ads, propaganda so forth. They were involved 107 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: in Missouri experimenting in Missouri. UM. And we've also just 108 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: been kind of, uh, you know, a litmus test for 109 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: the country. You have every kind of political um extreme here, 110 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, from extreme left across the spectrum to extreme right. 111 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: It's where Phillis Schlafley was from. It's where the Tea 112 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: Party emerged. It's also where the Ferguson movement emerged. UM. 113 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: So you really get a bit of everything. And I 114 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: think a lot of political actors and donors see it 115 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: as an opportune place to experiment. Think, well, you know, 116 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: how is this going to play out on a national level, Like, 117 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: let's see what happens in Missouri, the state that barely 118 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: gets covered, where people won't really notice if we get 119 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: up to something dirty. Let's go back to Cambridge and 120 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: political from my for a moment on the Michael Lewis podcast, 121 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: the guy was in charge of Cambridge Analytica said it 122 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: didn't work, that the profiling didn't work. What's your view 123 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: point on that? I mean, did did he say what? 124 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: It didn't work? At the In terms of targeting, I 125 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: think it's hard to tell. I don't think that there's 126 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: been a qualitative study, like in terms of you know, 127 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: looking at people's social media profiles, trying to guess their tastes, 128 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: trying to guide them to a particular candidate. I think, uh, 129 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: you know, it might have worked, it might not have, 130 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: but to my knowledge, there hasn't really been a study 131 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: of it. You know, I looked at a lot of 132 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: those uh you know, Russia backed propaganda groups, although it's 133 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: not solely Russia, um that was doing things like this 134 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: as we know, it was actors from the US, the 135 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: UK and so forth. Um, And you know, it did 136 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: seem to persuade some I did think that it's influence 137 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: in terms of like political advertising was overstated. I think 138 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: there are a lot of things at play in the 139 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen election that helped sway it. But when people 140 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: talk about foreign influence, they often focused on bots and 141 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: troll farms and the kind of things associated with Cambridge Analytica. 142 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: There's a British journalist, UM Carol called Wallader who's studied 143 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: it in detail. Um, and whistleblowers that have come forward, 144 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: and I really worry about that that company, and one's 145 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: like it is privacy is the fact that they've assembled 146 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: this giant database full of identifying details that can be sold, 147 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: that can be used by different actors for different means. 148 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: You know, we don't know what the future of that 149 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: information is going to be, and a lot of people 150 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: put their data on the internet unknowing that this would 151 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: be its ultimate destination. And I do think that that's 152 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: a violation of our privacy. Let's go back to Missouri. 153 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: Uh So at the present time, uh, what's the makeup 154 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: of the legislature, right versus left, Republican versus Democrat. It's 155 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: almost entirely Republican. Uh In terms of the main positions 156 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: in the legislature that are filled. There's one the state auditor, 157 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: and she's running for governor against our current Republican governor 158 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 1: and she's the sole Democrat that's in power. And that 159 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: was not the case when I moved here. That was 160 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: back in two thousand and six, it was pretty even. 161 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's fifty fifty. We had to democratic, uh, 162 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: a democratic governor Democratic senator with Clara mccaskell. There's this 163 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: belief that Missouri has always been a you know, quote 164 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: deep red state. Uh, that's not true. But I also 165 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: just don't think any state is red or blue. Um. 166 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: You know, as I said in the book, that every 167 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: state is purple. It's purple like a bruce. Um. You know, 168 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: it's a state that's dealing with its own pain, its 169 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: own problems. Um. And it's a lot more complex than 170 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: the media LA is out. And I think because the 171 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: national media has now become conglomerated in just a few cities, 172 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: like in you know, New York, l A, uh, sometimes Chicago, 173 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: I guess for the Midwest, it's had this kind of 174 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: unrealistic portrayal of how states relate to each other and 175 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: how politics play out within states where it's really a 176 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: big mix. Um. And it's not so easy to type 177 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: cast anybody California or Missouri. Now in some of these 178 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: gerrymandered states, I believe, like in Wisconsin, in terms of 179 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: sheer numbers, the Democrats are victorious, but in terms of 180 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: the elections because of jerrymandering. The Republican's rule. Is that 181 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: a similar situation in Missouri. Yeah, although the the issue 182 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: with Wisconsin that worries me a lot is voter disenfranchisement 183 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: because after the partial repeal of the v r A, 184 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: the Voting Rights Act in two thousand thirteen, there were 185 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: new ID laws. And back in twos sixteen you add 186 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: the Wisconsin election for the presidency, where you know, Trump 187 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: won that state by about thirty thousand votes I think, 188 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: and over two hundred voters were turned away because they 189 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: were told they didn't have the prerequisite identification. Uh. And 190 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot of question as to that, as to 191 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: whether that was legitimate, and as to whether these voter 192 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: ID laws, um you know, are keeping people from voting. 193 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's clear that they are. Missouri has since 194 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: passed a law, um you know, requiring voter I D 195 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: that can result in people being turned away. But at 196 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: this point, you know, I'm worried about coronavirus, I'm worried 197 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: about whether there's going to be an election. I'm worried 198 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: about whether we'll be able to safely vote. So a 199 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: lot of that stuff is h is up in the air, 200 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: I think for everybody, but certainly for us. Okay, let's 201 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: just stay with the safely vote. Certainly here in California. Uh, 202 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: whatever elections we have will be by mail. Do we 203 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: anticipate that will be a fifty state situation or not. 204 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: I think it should be. I think for public safety, 205 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: it should be by mail and it should be easy 206 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 1: to do. We just finally in Missouri how to ruling 207 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: that you'll be able to vote by mail as long 208 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: as you have some sort of medical rationale, you know, 209 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: I think, including if you fall into the category of 210 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: seven year older you're a high risk person for coronavirus. 211 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: The rest of us, I think, need to go see 212 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: an auditor if we want to vote, um, you know, 213 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: via mail, which I think is ridiculous. I mean, people 214 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,199 Speaker 1: are not going to put the time and effort into that, 215 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: and it's a risky disease. You know, we don't know 216 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: what the hell it does. We don't know what the 217 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: ultimate effect is. And you shouldn't be asking people, I 218 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: think too, you know, potentially put their life on the 219 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: line to go vote. It should be simple. Um. You know, 220 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: Oregon and other states have been doing voting by mail 221 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: for a while. But this is why the GOP wants 222 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: to shut down the post office. That was one of 223 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: the first things they announced had to go in March, um, 224 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, in in their new little budgetary cuts. And 225 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: that's a you know, the movement of an aspiring autocrat. 226 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: That's the move of a party that does not want 227 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: free and fair elections. Now, like you, I grew up 228 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: in Connecticut, but I'm obviously older than you. But the 229 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,599 Speaker 1: first thing I remember Trump doing was saving Wollman Rink, Okay, 230 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: and he got out a lot of press. And I 231 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: was under the impression that the guy was smart. Certainly 232 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: I no longer have that impression now that he is president. 233 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: So when it comes to the post Office, in these 234 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: other uh plans, do you think he's aware? Do you 235 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: think it comes from him who is generating this behavior now, 236 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: not something that has to do with bureaucracy, not something 237 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: that has to do with all the little details. You know, 238 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: what Trump wants is a guaranteed win. You know, he 239 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: had said that before. Like people tend to not realize it, 240 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: but Trump ran or nearly ran for president five times, 241 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: almost ran in a d A in ninety six, he 242 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: ran in two thousand, he ran two thousand twelve, if 243 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: he ran in two thousand sixteen, he had set for 244 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: about thirty years that he would only run and not 245 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: drop out early if the win was predetermined. Um, and 246 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: you know how literally you want to take that, I 247 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: don't know, but basically that's what he cares about. He 248 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: cares about winning, about power, about money, about immunity from prosecution. 249 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: He's not thinking about the organization of our bureaucracy. I 250 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: don't think he necessarily knows the law except for the 251 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: extent that he needs to break it to accomplish what 252 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: he wants. And as president, he can break the law 253 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: by rewriting it, having his lackeys like Bill Barr rewrite it. 254 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: So that's kind of how he operates. And he's always 255 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: surrounded himself with people who are a lot smarter and 256 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: savvier at handling these details, especially legal details, whether Roy 257 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: Khon or Michael Cohen, or Bill Barr or Mitch McConnell. 258 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: You know, those are the ones that work it out. 259 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: He just has his own self interest, and you know, 260 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: that's primarily what what he's there, you know, to accomplish. Okay, 261 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: let's go back to twenties sixteen since you mentioned that, 262 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: uh needle to say nately Silver called the previous election 263 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: and it he did a little bit of a maya culpa, 264 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: but then he kind of explained, well, really the polls 265 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: were right, okay, and certainly the New York Times missed it. 266 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: This was before Bezos had brought the Washington poster injected 267 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: a lot of money, so it wasn't of the profile 268 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: it had now, needless say, the Wall Street journals on 269 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: the other side of the fence. What are the reasons? 270 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: And one of the primary reasons you believe Trump was 271 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: victorious in Um, well, I had anticipated he was going 272 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: to win, uh you know, and there are a number 273 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: of reasons for that. I mean, one was he did 274 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: have a base of support. People refused to recognize that 275 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: that base existed for a long time. They treated it 276 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: like a joke. They treated his candidacy like entertainment. Um. 277 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: I saw him as an American demagogue, and as time 278 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: went on, I saw him as having, uh, you know, 279 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: similar style to the kind of dictators that I had 280 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: studied in the former Soviet Union for most of my career. 281 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: And you know, for those who don't know my degree 282 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: in anthropology, UM you know, I spent that studying uz Pakistan. 283 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: I sent that studying some of the most brutal dictators 284 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: and flamboyant dictators in the world, and Trump reminded me 285 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: of them. Then I realized that this was not a 286 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: metaphorical connection. You know, Trump was literally connected to the 287 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: former Soviet Union through his financial dealings, through his hiring 288 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: of Paul Manafort, who had worked for the Kremlin, as 289 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: his campaign manager. And I realized Russia had a real 290 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: investment in Trump winning, which you know, people in government 291 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: also realized. What they didn't seem to realize is that 292 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: they could pull this off. That they were not stupid people. 293 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: These are skilled operatives with the long history of you know, 294 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: these kind of designs. And I think, um, that combined 295 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: with I mean, it was a perfect storm of a 296 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: lot of things. You know, there were flaws in the 297 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: Clinton campaign. I think people underestimated, you know, how widely 298 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: she was disliked. Um. But yeah, you know, the polls 299 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: were wrong. I never really trust polls. I don't trust 300 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: polls now. I think polls are used to construct narratives 301 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: by people who are savvy at manipulating the media. They're 302 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: used to tell people that things are popular even when 303 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: they're not. And from that, you know, actual popularity grows 304 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: because people feel like it's acceptable to like this thing. 305 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: It's acceptable to like Trump, to like a white supremacist, 306 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: to like a big etcetera, etcetera. It opens, uh you 307 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: know that that Overton window, and then our country gets 308 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: defonstrated through it. But uh yeah, anyway, Okay, I want 309 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: to get back. I want to get Okay, we have 310 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: endless debates. It looks like Warren's leader. People start to vote, 311 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: and Bernie Sanders is doing extremely well and Biden is 312 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: doing poorly. Needless to say, going back to the d 313 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: n C is clueless and out of touch with their constituents. 314 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: But as a voracious reader of the New York Times, 315 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: in the Washington Post as well as the Wall Street Journal, 316 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: it seemed to me there was a concerted campaign in 317 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: the media to make sure that Bernie did not win. Okay, 318 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: and then it seemed to me there was a plot 319 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: has too many negative connotations, but there was a decision, Okay, 320 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: Bernie is doing so well that we're gonna get all 321 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: the other candidates to drop out. Well, only have Biden 322 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 1: South Carolina, and we'll give it to him. What's your 323 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: viewpoint on what happened with Bernie? Yeah, I mean, I 324 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: I do think that there was a plan, um that 325 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: there was, you know, a concerted action from more centrist 326 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: Democrats to prevent Bernie from getting the nomination. And I 327 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: think there is a move in the media against both 328 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: Bernie and Warren. You know, there would be polls for examples, 329 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: is a use of them? Is something other than a 330 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: actual measuring tool where they'd say, who are you going 331 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 1: to vote for? They would just leave her out, you know, 332 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: they're trying to make her candidacy vanish. And then yeah, 333 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, Biden won South Carolina. You know, I think 334 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: he won it legitimately. But after that it was like 335 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: centrist vultron assembled, where you had all the other candidates 336 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: dropping out at once and throwing their support to Biden. 337 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: And that's what secured the nomination for Biden on Super Tuesday. 338 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: And what concerns me, you know, isn't so much. Um, 339 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: I mean, they're there are things that concerned me beyond 340 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: just Biden being the candidate. But the Democrats, you know, 341 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: don't seem to feel obligated to recognize the widespread support 342 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: people have for the policies um that are endorsed by 343 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: Sanders and Warren, especially economically, even though coronavirus is happening. 344 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: I think Biden might be more receptive to these policies. 345 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: I don't think the d n C is and I 346 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: think that the leaders ship of the Democratic Party, people 347 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 1: like Pelosi and Schumer, have been incredibly timid and bad 348 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: at fighting Trump, at realizing that they're up against an autocrat, 349 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: they're up against a mafia state. They have not been 350 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: you know, taking them on with the urgency that's necessary. 351 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: And so all of that makes me worry because I 352 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: do at least feel that Bernie and certainly Warren recognize 353 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: that we're in a crisis and that's going to be 354 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: very difficult to get us out of that, economically, politically, 355 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: and in every other respect. Let's go back to needless 356 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: to say, the New York Times it was weird. You know, 357 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: they had that meter on the front page of the 358 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: paper and online, and literally, as I'm watching the results, 359 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: you watch the meter go in the other direction. Then 360 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: became an era of self flagellation, okay, which the left 361 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: wing narrative at this point in time is twofold. They 362 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: say it's white nationalism, and then they say, let's look 363 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: at the numbers. In reality, the upper middle class were 364 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: the voting for Trump. My question is to what degree 365 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: is globalization an issue? Now? One of the problems I 366 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: have with globalization is that every says, yeah, bring the 367 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: jobs back home, but they don't want to pay two 368 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: thousand dollars for a flat screen. Okay, And I believe 369 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: globalization is inevitable without going down that path, my point 370 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: being that one thing is clear. We did not take 371 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: care of the people who lost during globalization. So the 372 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: fact that people were screwed by globalization, to what degree 373 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: them wanting to put a spanner in the works was 374 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: a factor in Trump's victory. I think it was a 375 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: factor in just a general sense of disillusionment that you 376 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: see across the political spectrum, and it was there before. 377 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: I think that Trump is very good into tapping into that. 378 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: You know, he's like a vulture that praise on people's pain. 379 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: And I remember that. I remember during the campaign. Um, 380 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: I think at that point, you know, my has been 381 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: had been out of work for a long time, you know, 382 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: or he was actually working multiple minimum wage jobs. I was, 383 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: you know, struggling to get by take care of the kids. 384 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: And Trump comes along and announces that there's actually forty 385 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: five percent unemployment, you know, under Obama, and all the 386 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: pundits start laughing and they're like, my god, what an idiot, Like, 387 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: who's going to believe that? And I was like, you know, consciously, 388 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: of course, like I know that that's not true. I 389 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: know that it's not you know, technically after the country 390 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 1: is unemployed, but it felt like that was the case 391 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: because people are struggling, because people can't pay their bills, 392 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: because they're working gig jobs, they're you know, working these 393 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: side hustles, and they can't get by. Trump in reality, 394 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, couldn't give a shift if people survive. He's 395 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: not looking out for their welfare, but he's at least 396 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: aware of that suffering and how he could exploit it. 397 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: On the other end, you know, you had Bernie who 398 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: also recognized it and did have ideas and how to 399 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: fix it. And then you had Hillary who gradually began 400 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: to recognize that everybody was not so happy un or 401 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: the Obama administration, especially younger people economically, uh, and she 402 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: began to kind of you know, turn her campaign in 403 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: that direction and ultimately did so, which I thought was 404 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: a good move on her part, But yeah, you know, 405 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: it was a mess. And I think people are worried 406 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: not just about globalization, but about automation and with coronavirus. 407 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm very worried about that because there are all these 408 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: jobs that I think people will say, for safety reasons 409 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: need to be replaced by, you know, robots, basically any 410 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: kind of like cashier position something like that. I don't 411 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: know where all those people who need those jobs to 412 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 1: survive economically are going to go if that kind of 413 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: decision is made, because I don't feel like like anyone 414 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: in the government is really looking out for them. Another 415 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: criticism of the left is that it is too is 416 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: become an elite like the traditional Republican and doesn't care 417 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: and has contempt for lower economic people. The other thing being, 418 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: when I grew up, there was not this level of 419 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: income inequality in the fifties and sixties and up into 420 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: the mid seventies, certainly, but if you were rich, uh, 421 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: you had inherited the money. Where is today? Most of 422 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: the very wealthy people earn the money, and they worked 423 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: very hard to earn the money, but they've got no 424 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: time for the people hooked on I'm talking about people 425 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: on the left. Forget the people on the right. They 426 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: got no time. For the people on opioids, they got 427 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: no time. And I think those people recognize that contempt. 428 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: I I think that's true. I mean I recognize that contempt. 429 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: You know, I've been the subject of that contempt. You know, 430 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: despite having a good education, um and whatnot. You know, 431 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: it's frustrating, like they they seem to want to be idolized. 432 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: There's this cult of personality thing that's been forming. I 433 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: think Trump made it a lot worse because he really 434 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: does want natural cult to surround him. But you know, 435 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: when I makeicisms of people like Pelosi or Schumer, I 436 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: get bombarded um with you know, how dare you critique 437 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: our our side or critique this or that. And I'm like, 438 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: that's literally why they're there, Like this is a representative government. 439 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: These are public servants. They're supposed to be doing their job. 440 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: I'm not hurling at hominem comments. I'm not saying anything 441 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: that's you know, honestly all that harsh. I'm saying, you know, 442 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: you're screwing up at your job, and you're jeopardizing my 443 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: life and my country's future as a result of it. 444 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's there's a timidity there. I think that 445 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: people have stopped expecting uh, public servants, expecting elected officials 446 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: to do their jobs competently, to represent them, to stand 447 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: up with people who don't have much, you know, are 448 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: just struggling to survive. They they've lost that, and I think, 449 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, for people younger than me, they've never even 450 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: seen it an action in their lives. I mean, that's 451 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: why Warren's campaign fell almost shocking to me, because she 452 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: was addressing those issues and she had these very detailed 453 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: plans and I could see how they would be carried 454 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: out in action, and I'm like, oh my god, you know, 455 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's almost overwhelming to read all that. And 456 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: of course, um, you know, she didn't win, and that's 457 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: that's too bad, because I think she would have been 458 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: a great president. But um, it's a it's a very 459 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: frustrating thing because I do think they care about their donors. Uh, 460 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: they are in their bubble um and they're not you know, 461 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: on the ground even aware of what's happening to ordinary Americans. Okay, 462 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: as someone who follows is closely certainly not a scientific expert. 463 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: As I was describing him my shrink, it's just raw insanity. Okay, 464 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: But yesterday, and Lord only knows what will happen before 465 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: these airs, it truly took another leap. Okay, with Friday, 466 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: we had the firing of the inspector, which was insane. 467 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: But Trump taking the chlora queen, I mean put that 468 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: in context for the rest of us. Oh, I mean, 469 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: this is like the second time he's told Americans to 470 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: take a potentially dangerous such a substance to cure coronavirus. 471 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: The first time around it was drink bleach. So I 472 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: guess there's been a you know, an improvement. Honestly, um, 473 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, I usually don't buy the whole it's a 474 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: distraction thing from Trump because I think it's important to 475 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,160 Speaker 1: examine everything. It's important to look at what he's doing 476 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, and it's important to look at, you know, 477 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: what kind of propaganda narrative he puts forward. But as 478 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: I say in the book, he tries to hide crime 479 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: with scandal. And so while I would look at, you know, one, 480 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: the irresponsibility of recommending a drug that could potentially kill you, 481 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: there's that there's probably a short term kind of profit 482 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: margin for him, since he seems to have investment in 483 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: the company that produces a drug. But I'm more worried 484 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: about the complete chaos and the apathy toward Americans suffering 485 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: an American death demonstrated by this administration. Because as people 486 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: are panicked, as people are going through the worst economic 487 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: crisis of our lives, as they're wondering if they're going 488 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: to get this you know, fatal disease that that many 489 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: don't understand how it works. Uh, they're capitalizing on that. 490 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: They're wording medical equipment, They're making the situation worse. Um. 491 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, that is a way 492 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: that Trump has personally behaved his whole life. You know, 493 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: when nine eleven happened, his gut reaction was, now my 494 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: buildings look taller during any financial crisis two thousand eight, 495 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: he was like, this is fantastic. Now people like me 496 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: can make more money. You know, he's a disaster capitalist. 497 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: He's a corporate raider. He was trained, you know by 498 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: New York Wall Street corporate raiders like Carl Icon to 499 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: carry out this kind of uh, you know, loot and redistribute, 500 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: destroy this, and then you know, sell it off for parts. 501 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: That's what he wants to do to the United States, 502 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 1: and I think he does not want us looking at that. 503 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 1: He'd rather have us you know, talking about his irresponsible 504 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: snake oil peddling than about the fact that he's you know, 505 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: looting the country essentially and also not helping Americans, uh, 506 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, during a massive public health crisis. But in 507 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: this particular time, he is actually doing just like he's 508 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: not wearing a mask, he's actually taking the drug. Even 509 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: Neil Cavudo, I'm sure they're slapping him today, came out 510 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: against it. Uh. You know, if the Russian goal is 511 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: just to create chaos so people tune out, does because 512 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: this speaks to row credibilities just insanity? Okay, So does 513 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: this just demonstrate how the government has no credibility? Does 514 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: this actually work for him? Does it make people detach? 515 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: I don't know what exactly he's trying to accomplish with 516 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: the I don't even how to pronounce the hydraulic queen um. 517 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: You know. I do think that it's somewhat of a 518 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: distraction thing because there are very serious things, you know, 519 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: going on in the government, both with economically but also 520 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: things Pompeio is getting up to bars, getting up to 521 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: I don't think that the intent is just to cause chaos. 522 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: There is something weird about Trump, um, which is that 523 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: he's a lifelong germophobe. You know. You could read articles 524 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: about him going back about over three decades saying how 525 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: he compulsively washes his hands, he won't shake hands, he's 526 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: terrified of getting a terrible virus. In one article, it's 527 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: even named as coronavirus. There's an article from seventeen, i think, 528 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: in Politico called the pure Le Presidency, and it's about 529 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: he forced everyone around him to use perel to keep 530 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: off germs. Suddenly an actual pandemic emerges, a very contagious one, 531 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: and he's running around shaking everyone's hand, sharing microphones, you know, 532 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: disobeying all these rules, refusing to wear a mask. It's 533 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: very weird because he's acting like he's immune or that 534 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: at the least someone has told him that he is 535 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: immune to this virus, despite being in a target demographic 536 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: of men over seventy years old, you know, very very 537 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: likely to get it and to be severely affected. So 538 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: I have found that strange from the moment I heard 539 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: about the virus back in January, and it only gets 540 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: weirder when he's recommending this drug that doctors and scientists 541 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: say doesn't actually work as a treatment. So I don't 542 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: know whether he believes it, or whether they're something else 543 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: going on or or what um. But I do think 544 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: the entire medical situation with him is bizarre. Well, certainly 545 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: this drug can have negative consequences speaking to the heart. 546 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: But from my viewpoint, the right defines the debate and 547 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: the left reacts, why do you believe that is? And 548 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: could there be a u turn such at the left 549 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: defines a debate. It's a very frustrating thing. There's a 550 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: tendency in the life to just not speak bluntly about 551 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: any of this. You know, they won't call lie a 552 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: lie or a crime a crime. It shouldn't be easy, 553 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it shouldn't be difficult to criticize Donald Trump. 554 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: You know, it gives you a lot of material to 555 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: work with. I think some of the hesitancy comes from 556 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: this both sides style of journalism that's been, you know, 557 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: very popular over the last twenty years, where Trump is like, 558 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, I want a new hurricane, and they're just like, oh, 559 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: will it work? Will it not? You know, instead of 560 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: just addressing the issue as a a sign of a 561 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: great threat now national security. We see that's not just 562 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: with Trump, but things like climate change, and it causes 563 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: incredible damage when people refuse to acknowledge a blatant threat. 564 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: I think that this elitism in the media is one 565 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: of the causes of this. I think that the media 566 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: and our political culture and these overlapping circles have become, 567 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: you know, dominated by people from very wealthy backgrounds, from 568 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: you know, sort of very very narrow geographic focus. There 569 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: have been all these credentials now required, all these prerequisites 570 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: to get your foot in the door, and that means 571 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: that they're reluctant to report on each other. Honestly, you know, 572 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: they want to keep this illusion going. They don't want 573 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: to out people like Ivanka and Jared as grifters when 574 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: those are their sources. And they're just thinking of things like, 575 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: you know, access and prestige and reputation and of themselves. 576 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: You know, they're not thinking about the country. They're not 577 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: thinking about how does this affect ordinary Americans. They're thinking 578 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: about their selves and their insular little world. And that 579 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: applies to the Trump camp and to the people working 580 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: at Fox News and it applies to people working at 581 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: the New York Times and other allegedly liberal outlets. It's 582 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: just a failure to value truth, to value honesty, um, 583 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: and to just you know, tell people what's actually going on, 584 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: and you know, tell it like it is. I went 585 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: to the Holocaust Museum in Los Angeles a year ago, 586 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: and I was stunned that they had the reprints of 587 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: all the papers, that the information was there and no 588 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: one acted. Now, we can certainly talk about degree quantity 589 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: and whether they avoid certain nooks and crannies, but there 590 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: is a lot of information that has been printed. Now. 591 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: Although one of the critics said when Trump got elected 592 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: that the uh on NPR that the press should take 593 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: a viewpoint, which they haven't. Okay, you say something fascinating 594 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: as time I heard anybody else say this, that we 595 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 1: all have a feeling as we're living our regular lots, 596 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: that there's somebody out there, there's somebody who's going to 597 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: take care of it. And you say there isn't. Okay, 598 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: So what can be done about truly blowing the whistle 599 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: on this all insanity in our country? Yeah, it's a 600 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: very frustrating thing. You know. I think the scariest part 601 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: of my book is the fact that there's like thirty 602 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: pages of end notes from all the other reporting that 603 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: has been done on all these massive crimes being carried 604 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: out by Trump and other members of this administration. You know, 605 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: as is in the title, it's in plain sight, and 606 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: it's the failure to act that's been very frustrating. Everyone 607 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: thinks somebody else is going to swoop in and save us, 608 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: or they think, Okay, you know, if this is really 609 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: so bad, if this is really so dangerous, people would 610 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: be behaving differently. They'd be acting with urgency, they'd be 611 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: speaking out strongly. But they don't um and that's unfortunately, 612 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: very typical when a democracy transitions into an autocracy. That's 613 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: why newspapers of the nineteen thirties, you know, leading up 614 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: to the time of Hitler's domination, World War two, the Holocaust, 615 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: you will see similar styles of articles. You'll see puff 616 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: pieces on Hitler and on the Third Reich that resemble 617 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: the kind written about the Trump administration, where people just 618 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: refuse to see what's right in front of them. They 619 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: refused to see cruelty or evil or to acknowledge it 620 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: as such. They're they're afraid of being seemed as alarmist 621 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: or as hysterical. But I think that you really need 622 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: to error on the side of caution here, especially because 623 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: there is such a historical precedent for this. And I 624 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: don't just mean Nazi Germany, but you know, looking at Milosovich, 625 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: at put In, at anybody who's risen to power, the 626 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: path is very similar to Trump. It's easy to predict. 627 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: You know, it's the dictator's playbook, and we're watching it 628 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 1: play out in a kind of American pop culture infotainment 629 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: kind of way, you know, a tabloid kind of way 630 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: that I think people don't recognize it because they think 631 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: autocracy means like tanks appear on the street. They don't 632 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: understand that a very American root autocracy is to have 633 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: a reality TV star inhabiting the White House and deceiving 634 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: people and you know, using is considerable media spin and 635 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: propaganda skills to get this horrific agenda accomplished. Let's one 636 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: thing we know about Trump, as I stated previously, he's 637 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: really not that intelligent. However, the Republicans in Congress and 638 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,760 Speaker 1: pretty much are a few, you know, never Trump people, 639 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: but they don't have that much traction. So these people 640 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: look at the impeachment et cetera. They all line up 641 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: behind Trump. Let's just say, for this sacred to me discussion, 642 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: you know, Trump gets hit by a car tonight dies, 643 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: what will perpetuate the autocracy? I think that well, Trump's 644 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: skill always is to keep it in the family, and 645 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: the fact that Jared and Ivanka are in the White 646 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: House should have been just a giant red flag that 647 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 1: this is an aspiring autocrat. This is a colectocrat, you know, 648 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 1: who need to keep the money flowing through the family. 649 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: The cryme flowing through the family. That's what he wants. 650 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: I don't think that the GOP as a whole is 651 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: that enamored of them, but they'll certainly try to take power. Technically, 652 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,720 Speaker 1: I guess the reigns of power will go to Mike Pence. 653 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: But I think the Republicans have seen Trump as a 654 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: vehicle for desires that they've had and have been honing 655 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: for decades. You know, he didn't come out of nowhere 656 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: like on one hand, you have you know, the foreign 657 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: aspect of this, where not just Russia, but Russia, Israel, 658 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, all of these different countries realized that Trump 659 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: has no baseline loyalty to the United States, and so 660 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: it's pretty easy to get him to do things that 661 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: are damaging to the United States and beneficial to them. 662 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: The Republicans see it as a way where, you know, 663 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 1: as I think, as Grover Norquist said, you can drown 664 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: government in a bathtub. That that's what they want to do. 665 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: They want to have this libertarian or ultra libertarian agenda 666 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: where you just basically don't have government, you dismantle it. 667 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: It's everybody for them selves. You let the poor suffer 668 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: and starve. There's a you know, white supremacist aspect to it. 669 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: That's that's pretty blatant. Um. You're seeing all of that 670 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: play out with the coronavirus, by the way, because it 671 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: is disproportionately black and Native American communities getting hit by it. 672 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 1: And if that weren't the case, um, you know, maybe 673 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: they would be more assertive at combating it, but not 674 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: necessarily because I don't think that the Trump administration cares 675 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: about poor white people either. Um. You know, there's a 676 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: genocidal quality to it. So if he were gone, the 677 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: same tendencies would continue because so many people have managed 678 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: to you know, pack the courts purge agencies, get money, 679 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: get power, violate, and then rewrite the rules. They're not 680 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 1: going to give up that opportunity. They're going to hang 681 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: on to that power, you know, with all they've got. Okay, 682 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: let's go back to you. You're from Connecticut. And for 683 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: those people who well, first of all, it's on Wikipedia whatever, 684 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: and you're forty two. So for forty one, there's some 685 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: stuff in that Wikipedia page where I was like, wait, 686 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: old mind, now I'll be forty two later in the year. Um, 687 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm from Meridan, Connecticut. They got that part right. Um, 688 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: you know most of it, most of it's correct. Fit 689 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: I didn't got the authority here on it. So how 690 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: many kids in your family? I have a younger sister, 691 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: younger sister, what's her life look like. She lives in Texas, 692 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: she's married. Uh, you know, she's got two kids of 693 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 1: her own. Uh you know right now. I mean her 694 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 1: her life is just taking care of the kids who 695 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: are home from school because we're living through a pandemic. 696 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: So okay, so your parents, how many generations was your 697 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: family in America? Uh? My great grandparents were the ones 698 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: who came from Poland. From Poland on both sides. Uh, yeah, 699 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: Poland and you know, a couple other Eastern European countries 700 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: thrown in, but mostly Poland. So how did your parents 701 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: meet in Meriden? Like everyone's from Meridin. I'm the one 702 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: who left. You know, my grandparents also grew up in Meridin. 703 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 1: Before that, I think, you know, the great grandparents lived 704 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: in New Britain, you know New Britsky, um in the 705 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: Middletown and you know, places near Meridan. So that was 706 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: those the big adventurers going from there to Meridan. Uh, 707 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: they're not the most adventurous family. Like I was sort 708 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: of the odd one out and that you know, I 709 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 1: liked to travel. Uh, you know, I like to move around. 710 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: I was much more of a restless person. But yeah, 711 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, my parents met each other in middle school. Uh, 712 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: started dating in high school. And I've been together for like, 713 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, fifty years. And people are like, you know, 714 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: what's the secret to your marriage? My mom says like 715 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: inertia and propinquity or something. It's not not so romantic, 716 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: but you know they are together. So and what did 717 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: they do for a living. My mom was an English 718 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: teacher at the one of the public schools in Meridin, 719 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: and my dad was first the corporation council for Meridin, 720 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: like the city attorney kind of, and then late in 721 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: life became the city manager for Meridin, like before his retirement. 722 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: He kind of he went in to fill in for somebody. 723 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: I mean, this is long after I left home, so 724 00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: I don't completely know happened, and then ended up just 725 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: stay there for about eight years until he was hired. 726 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: So he is an attorney, yeah, yeah, yeah, well he 727 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 1: has a law degree, but he ended up going into 728 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: city management. I have a law degree to it. It's 729 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: like I'm not practicing. Oh yeah, the year in the 730 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 1: music industry. I'd be glad to tell you my story, 731 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: But I grew up at first of all, I grew 732 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: up in a completely different era where everybody wanted their 733 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,280 Speaker 1: kid to be a lawyer or a doctor. I know people. 734 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: I was talking to a friend of mine. He's got 735 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: a friend who I know pretty well myself was a 736 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: doctor and he said his sixties. Now, when he first 737 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: got out a medical school, he was making two hundred 738 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: and forty grand. Today he's making two hundred and forty grand. Okay, 739 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: so it used to be your upper class and not 740 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: to tell you know, they're certainly surgeons of making a 741 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,399 Speaker 1: million dollars a year. That's not my point. But your 742 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: parents wanted you to work hard to make sure that 743 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,720 Speaker 1: you know, you could feed yourself, do things, etcetera. Unfortunately, 744 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: what they were unaware of they had hard lives through 745 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: during the Depression. We grew up in the sixties, which 746 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: was all about you know, the uh. The Army stole 747 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: our slogan, you know, be all you can be, okay, 748 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 1: And my mother is a real cultural vulture. So after college, 749 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: I was a starving freestyle skier and I got the 750 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: world's worst case of mononucleosis. And I went to law 751 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: school and I would have dropped up, but I used 752 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,560 Speaker 1: to tell people all the time it was the worst 753 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: year in the history of skiing in Utah, which no 754 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: one knew until two thousand eleven and twelve. It was 755 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: also bad, and they had the statistics. So I went 756 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: through law school. If I go through law school, I'm 757 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 1: gonna take the bar and pass it. Otherwise you know 758 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,319 Speaker 1: why I burned three years. But I never had an 759 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: intention of practice law. I did a little bit, remember 760 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: going to court once because my boss had o c 761 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: D and couldn't drive on the freeway, and I got 762 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: the temporary ruling overturns and I said, I never have 763 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: to go again. But I always wanted to be in 764 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: the music business. And this is important only because music 765 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: drove the culture in the sixties and seventies. And there's 766 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 1: one canard which drives me crazy. Is that okay, and 767 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: this isn't all fields. Everything is the same. You're just 768 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: too old. You don't get it. Music is a big business, 769 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: but it is not the driver of the culture the 770 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: way it was in the sixties and seventies. I say 771 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: the same thing about tech, and they're starting to be 772 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: a turn from to tech. Was everything drove the culture. 773 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,919 Speaker 1: I don't hear people dropping out saying, oh, I'm gonna 774 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: I'm gonna write an app today. Okay, but I think 775 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: there's a backlash against tech. But people are invested in 776 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: the past. But you're growing up in the eighties and nineties. 777 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,359 Speaker 1: You go to public school. Did you fit in? Were 778 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: you popular? Were you No? No? I was like like 779 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 1: a nerd with an attitude problem. So you know, it's 780 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 1: think the worst of all worlds, right, you know, grades wise, 781 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,880 Speaker 1: I did fine, But you know, I was bored. I 782 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: was restless. Uh you know, I was a big music fan. 783 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: I was like big Guns and Roses fan. I heard 784 00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,399 Speaker 1: you were I heard you were a metal head. Oh 785 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: yeah yeah. I mean it was funny because today, um, 786 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: Alex Skolnik from Test of It was like, oh, I 787 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: saw that you were in the Pop Upsets letter. I 788 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna be on the show. 789 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: And he's like, that's great. Yeah. He interviewed me too. 790 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: And you know, Decibel wrote a profile on me, and 791 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: that's fine. I like all kinds of music. It's not 792 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: just metal. You know, my tastes are pretty broad. But um, 793 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, I was a piano player and a guitar 794 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: player and you know, not that great musician. But I 795 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: always loved music, Um, and it was important to me, 796 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: and I think even back then, music drove the culture. Certainly, 797 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,239 Speaker 1: MTV drove the culture for my generation, and it was 798 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: very weird to me when they stopped playing videos and 799 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: when FM radio kind of ceased to have meaning. And 800 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 1: I was in college during Napster, so obviously I enjoyed 801 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 1: that you know, Napster free ride experience, but um, you know, 802 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: music and journalists and began to overlap quite a bit 803 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,240 Speaker 1: because everyone was expected to work for exposure and everybody 804 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,719 Speaker 1: was getting you know, their content you know, kind of 805 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: stolen or you know, was having difficulty finding opportunities in 806 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,240 Speaker 1: their fields. And I think that that created a culture 807 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 1: of conformity. And I don't think that that's the whole culture, 808 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: but the sort of people who rise to the top 809 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: a lot of the times are the people who will embrace, uh, 810 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,959 Speaker 1: you know what a shrinking industry demands of you, which 811 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: doesn't always produce, you know, the highest quality, or it 812 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: doesn't allow a lot of space for unconventional people to 813 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: be able to financially survive. And so I just look 814 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: at the sixties and seventies where there's all this you know, 815 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 1: political turmoil, you know, a pretty horrible time politically, but 816 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: at least there was music and you know in movies, 817 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: like a great, great pop culture. So I get kind 818 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: of jels of that, you know. I was looking at 819 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: like the Watergate Watergate hearings and thinking about the albums 820 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:42,840 Speaker 1: that came out in those years, and I was like, wow, 821 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: like what incredible comfort in that time. Whereas I mean 822 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: I do like, you know, bands that are out now 823 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,839 Speaker 1: I'm not completely dismissive of it by any means, but 824 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,280 Speaker 1: it isn't that driving force. There isn't that that feeling 825 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,439 Speaker 1: of being part of something bigger, you know, something that 826 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: that like gets your soul, I think, and maybe the 827 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: way there was back then. What's your favorite guns and Roses? Long? 828 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,799 Speaker 1: Oh god, that's so hard to pick because I think 829 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: of Appetite is kind of its own thing, and then 830 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, there I have. I have, like everybody have 831 00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: a mix tape of the Illusion albums combined, right, I 832 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,359 Speaker 1: can't read of some of the lesser tracks. Um gosh, 833 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: you know that's uh. I mean it goes by my 834 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,879 Speaker 1: sometimes Rocket Queens sometimes it's so easy. Sometimes you could 835 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,280 Speaker 1: be mine. But also I don't know. I like Rocket 836 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 1: Queen because it goes through the whole, like through all 837 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,360 Speaker 1: the emotions. You know that that you can experience that 838 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: that the band puts forward, you know, where they have 839 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 1: that coda and they go out like that. I just 840 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 1: think it's an interesting constructed song. Well, I think Appetite 841 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: is certainly the best piece of work they did. My 842 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: favorite would be Paradise City and it's a great video. Whatever. 843 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: I'm a big busy fan and Dustin Bones and use 844 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: your illusion one which begs the question did you go 845 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: to see the reunion tour? Of course, like, oh my god, yeah, 846 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,239 Speaker 1: I was so excited. Well, first of all, I've had 847 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 1: this feeling it basically since Trump won, Like am I 848 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: living in a simulation? Or you know, it's is this 849 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: the apocalypse? And I'm in purgatory? And then when G 850 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: and R not only reunited but then went to Place St. Louis, 851 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: whereas you probably know, they were banned, uh, you know 852 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,360 Speaker 1: because of the riverport right, I got tickets immediately, and 853 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,640 Speaker 1: I kept thinking, like Trump is gonna install full fascism 854 00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: before I get to see G and R. But that 855 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 1: didn't happen, and so I saw them in July seventeen. 856 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: Then I saw them over the summer, uh, Louder than life. 857 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 1: And then one of the weirder things that happened is 858 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,399 Speaker 1: that Duff read my first book. He read The View 859 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: from fly Over Country and really liked it, uh, and 860 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: it helped inspire you know, his his album that he 861 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: put out last year. And so that for me, I 862 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: mean if you had asked me when I was twelve, 863 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: like what would my dream be, it would be like 864 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: seeing G and R writing a bestselling book inspiring gen R. 865 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: I mean, like you can't really top that. But then 866 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: someone would have had to say to me, like, well, also, 867 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is going to be the president and he's 868 00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: going to be a dictator, Like will you make this 869 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: right now? I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't. 870 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: I don't want to dictatorship. But it was kind of 871 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,720 Speaker 1: like I kind of five peaked now, like there's nowhere 872 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 1: to go but down from care. But traditionally, you know, 873 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 1: in nineteen nine, when led Zeppelin one came out, that 874 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,640 Speaker 1: was considered heavy metal and Black Sabbath was too far 875 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: out there. But certainly now more metal is its own genre. 876 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: But even back then, people listen to that as anger 877 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: at society. They felt misunderstood, and they could turn it 878 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: up and create their own world. Would that be an 879 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,720 Speaker 1: apt description of you? Oh yeah, I mean I'm angry 880 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: all the time, and I'm not apologetic about it. Like 881 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: I think there's plenty to be angry over, and you know, 882 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: I think there's there's an impulse just as a woman, 883 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: you're not supposed to be angry, etcetera, etcetera. You know, 884 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,839 Speaker 1: people say you're shrill, you're whining whatever. But I think 885 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: it's broader than that. I think everyone is kind of 886 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: conditioned to not be angry, to not complain. Uh And 887 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 1: you know, in my first book, and if you're from 888 00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,959 Speaker 1: five our country, I have an essay called and defend 889 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,720 Speaker 1: pense of complaining. And I think that anger, in many ways, 890 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,520 Speaker 1: it's a form of compassion. You know, It's it's looking 891 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: out for other people. It's being angry on their behalf. 892 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,120 Speaker 1: You know, I'm off I'm also angry on my own behalf. 893 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: But when I write, you know, I tried to think 894 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,279 Speaker 1: of other people, think of our society, um, you know, 895 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 1: and as what's happening to it. But you know, I 896 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,840 Speaker 1: mean with with heavy melo, you'll get a variety of songs, 897 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 1: and you know, some of them are more overtly political, 898 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,280 Speaker 1: you know, lyrically, and a lot of them just capture 899 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 1: and emotion. And I'm in it for both, you know, 900 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: I'm in it for the feeling that it conjures, even 901 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: if the lyrics have absolutely nothing to do, you know, 902 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,919 Speaker 1: with anything that's that's happening. But there's also I think, 903 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, great songs like I think Civil War by 904 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:42,799 Speaker 1: guns and Roses, for example, is a great song in 905 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 1: that genre. To what degree in your inbox or your 906 00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,560 Speaker 1: incoming do you hear that you're too negative? Um? It 907 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,719 Speaker 1: depends from the people who agree with me. They think 908 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: I'm I'm doing just fine. Um. I I used to 909 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: get it more in the beginning of the Trump administration. 910 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: It wasn't so much negative. It was you know, pessimistic, 911 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: doom and gloom. And I'm like, look, you know I 912 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,880 Speaker 1: I spent my career studying authoritarian states. I don't want 913 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: to be right. I mean that was something I think 914 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 1: people failed to grasp, is that I wanted to be 915 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: wrong about everything. I wanted to be wrong about all 916 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: my predictions because you know, I'm a mom, Like I'm 917 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: I'm raising my own children in this society I'm living here. 918 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:22,799 Speaker 1: You know, I want my country to be a democracy. 919 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: I want it to be free. Uh. And I saw 920 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: basically a mafia state forming and it it paralleled both 921 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,160 Speaker 1: directly and you know in terms of how you know, 922 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:36,000 Speaker 1: governance was formed the really awful states that I had 923 00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: been studying and that you know, I had worked with 924 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,120 Speaker 1: exiles and dissidence from. And I never took freedom of 925 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,840 Speaker 1: speech for granted. I never took free media for granted, 926 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: and I've always been worried that those things would go away. 927 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,360 Speaker 1: And I think people who weren't as familiar with world 928 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,359 Speaker 1: history or contemporary dictatorships, they just get thinking, well, this 929 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,839 Speaker 1: can't happen here, So why is she, you know, going 930 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,759 Speaker 1: on and on about that, like as if it was 931 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: like a stick or something. But it wasn't. Um, you know, 932 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 1: it was a warning. And I wanted the warning to 933 00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,799 Speaker 1: be heated, and I wanted officials to intervene, and I 934 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 1: wanted them to make me wrong, and they didn't. Uh. 935 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,240 Speaker 1: You know, people have sat back and let this happen, 936 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: you know, knowing full well what it is, or occasionally um, 937 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: you know, sticking their heads in the sand. Uh, and 938 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, comforting themselves with denial. And I don't fall 939 00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,279 Speaker 1: ordinary people for not fully understanding what's happening, because I 940 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,360 Speaker 1: think that they've been lied to quite a bit. I 941 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: do fall our officials, whether you know, Mueller, Pelosi, Comy, 942 00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,400 Speaker 1: anyone who could have you know, enforced accountability but chose 943 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: to look the other way. So you gotta Sarah Lawrence, 944 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 1: how's that experience? Sarah Lawrence in the late nineties. I 945 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,840 Speaker 1: mean it was weird. It was fine. It was a 946 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: school that had small classes, a lot of emphasis on writing, 947 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,440 Speaker 1: very little emphasis on math. You know, w it's a 948 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,320 Speaker 1: very bad at So I was glad for that. Um 949 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: I kind of did my own thing. I mean, it's 950 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,400 Speaker 1: a weird thing because you you definitely have that class 951 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: dynamic where like I was just do and stuff like 952 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,399 Speaker 1: renting a video and eating Chinese food in my dorm 953 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,080 Speaker 1: room and that would be like a big Friday night 954 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,800 Speaker 1: out for me. But a lot of really rich kids 955 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: go to that school, and you know, they'd be doing 956 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,800 Speaker 1: all these expensive drugs or partying in New York City 957 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: or so forth. It was an interesting time to have 958 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,479 Speaker 1: access to New York City. You know, it was about 959 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,600 Speaker 1: a half hour forty five minutes away, and I got familiar, um, 960 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,840 Speaker 1: you know with New York tabloid culture, you know, to 961 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,920 Speaker 1: some degree. I always was like, as you know, if 962 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,759 Speaker 1: you grew up in Connecticut, you get a lot of 963 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,759 Speaker 1: New York media pumped into your home, and so you 964 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,719 Speaker 1: get to learn about people like Donald Trump from your 965 00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,960 Speaker 1: early childhood. But I started reading you know, The Post, 966 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,080 Speaker 1: the Daily News, the Times, kind of absorbing that and 967 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,399 Speaker 1: then after college, you know, I moved there. I moved 968 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,160 Speaker 1: to New York for three years um, in part because 969 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,040 Speaker 1: I gained familiarity with it through going through Sarah Lace, 970 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,040 Speaker 1: going to Sarah Lawrence. How did you pay for Sarah Lawrence? 971 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,840 Speaker 1: Mixture of scholarships, my parents helping me in loans. Okay, 972 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: so you go to New York and you worked the 973 00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,040 Speaker 1: graveyard shift at the Daily News. Other than living in 974 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,880 Speaker 1: New York and anything good about doing that, other than 975 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 1: meeting your husband there? Yeah, I mean my husband was 976 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,719 Speaker 1: a co worker. That was good. I mean it was 977 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,040 Speaker 1: my first, like real job, my first like I'm out 978 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: of college and I have a job job, not like 979 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,439 Speaker 1: I work at the mall as a cashier kind of job, 980 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, over the summer um. So it was an 981 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: educational experience, you know. It was just at that point 982 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:24,960 Speaker 1: grateful I was able to pay my bills because I 983 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,840 Speaker 1: was worried about that. I was there at a very 984 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:29,759 Speaker 1: tumultuous time, you know. I was there for the two 985 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,359 Speaker 1: thousand presidential election, and then of course I was there 986 00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,160 Speaker 1: for nine eleven UM and that that was a horrific 987 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: time to live in New York City, you know, And 988 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,440 Speaker 1: it was a traumatic experience, And on one hand, I 989 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,800 Speaker 1: was glad to be at a newspaper because I felt 990 00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: like at least we were contributing something. And at that point, um, 991 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,879 Speaker 1: you know, as I described in the book, they made 992 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 1: the decision to make the website a completely different animal 993 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: than it had been before nine eleven, where instead of 994 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,799 Speaker 1: just being a replica of the print version, you had 995 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: breaking news person ended live on the site. And so 996 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,600 Speaker 1: that was to be part of that change, which you know, 997 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,800 Speaker 1: in retrospect is a very big historic change for media. 998 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:10,759 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just the daily news. It was you know, 999 00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,720 Speaker 1: basically every newspaper and magazine was making this decision. UM 1000 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,040 Speaker 1: to witness that was something, but no one ever figured 1001 00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 1: out what to do economically, um, how to monetize it. 1002 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,880 Speaker 1: After nine eleven, there are a lot of layoffs, you know, 1003 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,200 Speaker 1: in in my division, and I eventually, you know, I 1004 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,360 Speaker 1: left New York UM in two thousand three because it 1005 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,719 Speaker 1: had gotten incredibly expensive. Uh, there were no raises in sight. 1006 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 1: I was always worried that I I too would be 1007 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,000 Speaker 1: laid off, and I also just felt constricted, kind of 1008 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: like I I want to go deeper on these subjects. 1009 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,920 Speaker 1: I want to do more writing. There isn't a path 1010 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: for me here, There isn't probably a place for me here. Um. 1011 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:50,440 Speaker 1: You know, at this point, I was only twenty four 1012 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,359 Speaker 1: years old, so it's kind of like I've got time 1013 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,279 Speaker 1: to change my mind, you know. Okay, so you have 1014 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,560 Speaker 1: your boyfriend, then I don't know if you're married at 1015 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,000 Speaker 1: that point in time. We quit and then got married 1016 00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,319 Speaker 1: and invited our co workers. They came so and then 1017 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 1: you both went were uh. We left, uh, and we 1018 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,279 Speaker 1: taught English for a year in Turkey. And before that 1019 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,319 Speaker 1: we did a little bit of traveling. I had been 1020 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,440 Speaker 1: freelancing on the side at the daily News and saving 1021 00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,120 Speaker 1: up my money, like kind of unbelievably, I wrote for 1022 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,879 Speaker 1: like a few fashion magazines and neck then they paid well, 1023 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:21,120 Speaker 1: and you know that's why I did it. They were 1024 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,680 Speaker 1: being like a buck fifty word. So I sacked away 1025 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,239 Speaker 1: about ten thousand bucks. Uh. And then you know, we 1026 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,840 Speaker 1: went on a honeymoon and then I got jobs teaching 1027 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,359 Speaker 1: English in Istanbuwl and while we lived in Instan Bowl, 1028 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,440 Speaker 1: you know, we traveled around. We went to Bulgaria, Romania, 1029 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:40,080 Speaker 1: we went across Turkey, went to Georgia, um, Armenia. You know, 1030 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:41,840 Speaker 1: I just kind of thought that this is the time 1031 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,200 Speaker 1: before I have children, like I want to see as 1032 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:46,719 Speaker 1: much of the world as I can. Um. And I 1033 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,120 Speaker 1: had never left the country until I was twenty. When 1034 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: I was at Sarah Lawrence, I did a semester in 1035 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,000 Speaker 1: Vienna and I love to travel. You know, I miss 1036 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,919 Speaker 1: it a lot right now. Um, my kids have never 1037 00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 1: been outside the country, and I always dreamed of being 1038 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: able to to have them have those experiences. You know, 1039 00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,680 Speaker 1: since my family was so unadventurous with me, I wanted 1040 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,560 Speaker 1: to give them that. So the coronavirus, it's hard for 1041 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,160 Speaker 1: me to think of the future. It makes me sad, 1042 00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,760 Speaker 1: but yeah, that was an interesting point in my life. Eventually, Um, 1043 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, we ran out of money and I had 1044 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,200 Speaker 1: applied for a master's program UM in Central Asian Studies 1045 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:24,800 Speaker 1: at Indiana University and so Central Asian, uh the stands 1046 00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:29,000 Speaker 1: the former Soviet Union Central Asian countries, and I was 1047 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,680 Speaker 1: studying uz Pakistan. And I had a Foreign Language Area 1048 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 1: Studies fellowship to to do that, which was very good 1049 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,839 Speaker 1: because I didn't want to pay for it. And uh, 1050 00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, we we wanted out in New York at 1051 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,000 Speaker 1: that point. Honestly, we didn't really know what we were 1052 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,200 Speaker 1: doing and what did um he just looked for whatever 1053 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,320 Speaker 1: job you could find and ended up, you know, working 1054 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,920 Speaker 1: in marketing. He had been a journalist with me at 1055 00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,239 Speaker 1: the Daily News, like on the website division. But like 1056 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:58,839 Speaker 1: journalism died in our lifetime. Like you know, basically we 1057 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,279 Speaker 1: our goal is to pay the bills. Our goals did 1058 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,279 Speaker 1: not have debt. That's the goal of a lot of 1059 00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,440 Speaker 1: people of my generation. You know, your dreams don't necessarily 1060 00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,680 Speaker 1: go beyond that. And uh, you know lately, I mean 1061 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,440 Speaker 1: until recently, he was supporting my dreams. Um or there 1062 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:17,840 Speaker 1: weren't even dreams, my best reactions to difficult circumstances that 1063 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,640 Speaker 1: I was engaged in, uh, and just trying to keep 1064 00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,919 Speaker 1: us afloat. Okay, So the master's degree takes how long? 1065 00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,080 Speaker 1: Two years? Two years? And during that time do you 1066 00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:30,279 Speaker 1: go back to Central Asia? Well, I tried. I was 1067 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,520 Speaker 1: supposed to go to Uzbekistan. I had a you know, 1068 00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,920 Speaker 1: a scholarship and a ticket and everything. And then in 1069 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,600 Speaker 1: May two thousand five, there is a massacre in Uzbekistan, 1070 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:43,080 Speaker 1: um you know, Tienamen Square style by the state, by 1071 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,600 Speaker 1: the military on a group of protesters that had assembled 1072 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,160 Speaker 1: in a city called Andi John and they massacred eight 1073 00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,560 Speaker 1: hundred people. UM and so that men. Of course, I 1074 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,680 Speaker 1: was not going to go to Uzbekistan at that time, 1075 00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,920 Speaker 1: and the country closed itself to westerners. And then at 1076 00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,760 Speaker 1: that point I started to study the massacre from abroad 1077 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,440 Speaker 1: because I was very upset, you know, that it had 1078 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,319 Speaker 1: happened just as a human rights crisis, but also what 1079 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:09,719 Speaker 1: it had done is sent all these people from Uzbekistan, 1080 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,040 Speaker 1: all these journalists, all these witnesses, into exile. And at 1081 00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,720 Speaker 1: that point blogging was new. It was basically banned in Newzbekistan, 1082 00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:18,840 Speaker 1: but they were in exile, so they were able to 1083 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,840 Speaker 1: put online their recollections of what happened. And through that 1084 00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,640 Speaker 1: and through other documents that I was able to procure, 1085 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,440 Speaker 1: I wrote papers debunking the uzbek government's version of what 1086 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:32,440 Speaker 1: happened in newz Pekistan, where they were saying, you know, 1087 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,280 Speaker 1: they didn't do it, they weren't responsible, They invented a 1088 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,919 Speaker 1: fake Islamic terrorist group and blamed them. I was able 1089 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,680 Speaker 1: to debunk that. Um, that paper was used by the 1090 00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,560 Speaker 1: United Nations. Uh, you know, I'm glad I wrote it, 1091 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:46,760 Speaker 1: But it meant, of course that I was never going 1092 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,080 Speaker 1: to go to Uzbekistan, and I was never going to 1093 00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,360 Speaker 1: probably be allowed into a lot of other countries. So 1094 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,760 Speaker 1: I shifted my focus onto digital media, into how digital 1095 00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:59,920 Speaker 1: media was challenging autocracies and whether it would ultimately end up, 1096 00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,600 Speaker 1: you know, making a more democratic political culture. The answer 1097 00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,920 Speaker 1: to that is no, the opposite happened. You know, autocracies 1098 00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:12,320 Speaker 1: and dictatorships influenced uh democratic political cultures and infiltrated them, 1099 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,600 Speaker 1: in part using the Internet. So unfortunately, Um, you know, 1100 00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,880 Speaker 1: that's what I started to identify as a trend when 1101 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,320 Speaker 1: I began you know the next phase of my life, 1102 00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,680 Speaker 1: which was getting my PhD at Washington University. That's what 1103 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:28,520 Speaker 1: I was studying was politics, the Internet, dictatorships, Central Asia. 1104 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,800 Speaker 1: And my conclusions were, you know that we're in free 1105 00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:36,000 Speaker 1: a rough road because technology could so easily be manipulated 1106 00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,720 Speaker 1: by state powers, and people refuse to acknowledge that possibility. 1107 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 1: They always thought democracy somehow just sustains itself. What made 1108 00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,160 Speaker 1: you decide to get a PhD? Uh? Mostly because they 1109 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,480 Speaker 1: were offering me like a five year, you know, continuous 1110 00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,640 Speaker 1: amount of money, and I at that point I wanted 1111 00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,480 Speaker 1: to have a family. Um, you know, I was twenty seven, 1112 00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,640 Speaker 1: I had started working as a research assistant for an 1113 00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:10,240 Speaker 1: anthropologist at Indiana University, and I realized that all that writing, uh, 1114 00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,240 Speaker 1: that I wanted to do at the daily news, where 1115 00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,600 Speaker 1: you could write longer articles, you could choose very interesting 1116 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,720 Speaker 1: but more esoteric subjects, you know, is Pekistan is not 1117 00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,920 Speaker 1: exactly like a popularity winner. Um. You know that I 1118 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:23,840 Speaker 1: would have the freedom to do that and to do 1119 00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,520 Speaker 1: the kind of research I liked, and so I applied. 1120 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,959 Speaker 1: Uh was you offered me, you know, basically a full 1121 00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,800 Speaker 1: ride guaranteed for six years, um, you know, with health 1122 00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,480 Speaker 1: insurance and benefits and free tuition and the whole thing. Uh. 1123 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,480 Speaker 1: And my sister in law lives here in St. Louis, 1124 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,600 Speaker 1: you know, with her kids, and we liked the idea 1125 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:45,080 Speaker 1: of having her own children near family. Um. And so 1126 00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,080 Speaker 1: that seemed like a good plan. And you know, it 1127 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,240 Speaker 1: was a good plan. We we moved here. I did 1128 00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,600 Speaker 1: have kids while I was in graduate school. I got, 1129 00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:53,760 Speaker 1: you know, pregnant right off the bat, as soon as 1130 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:57,040 Speaker 1: that fellowship check arrived. Um. And and it went fine. 1131 00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,720 Speaker 1: You know, I graduated actually before my classmates. Um. But then, 1132 01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,920 Speaker 1: of course, the the economy collapsed while I was getting 1133 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,840 Speaker 1: that PhD, and there were no jobs once I finished it, 1134 01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,360 Speaker 1: So that was its own little obstacle. So your plan 1135 01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,120 Speaker 1: was to be an academic. I mean at that point 1136 01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,920 Speaker 1: in life, you know, I had witnessed the two thousand 1137 01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,720 Speaker 1: one economic collapse, nine eleven, um, you know, just a 1138 01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,160 Speaker 1: lot of changes that gave me very little faith on 1139 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:26,240 Speaker 1: anything sustaining. So in my head, I always have multiple plans, 1140 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, and I still in that way. I don't 1141 01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,400 Speaker 1: assume things are going to work out, as have a 1142 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,520 Speaker 1: backup plan. So I thought, Okay, either I'll go into journalism, 1143 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,160 Speaker 1: or I'll go into academia, or I'll work for an 1144 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,880 Speaker 1: NGO UM, or I'll do something where hopefully it's interesting 1145 01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 1: and challenging and creative work and I could provide for 1146 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,600 Speaker 1: my family and have time with my children. Um and 1147 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:48,560 Speaker 1: so it was really just sort of seeing what was 1148 01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,680 Speaker 1: out there. But yeah, I thought academia sounded good. Uh. 1149 01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,320 Speaker 1: You know, I I stayed home with my kids. I 1150 01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:56,120 Speaker 1: didn't want to pay for daycare, and also just I 1151 01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:58,080 Speaker 1: like kids, you know, I liked staying home with mine 1152 01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,680 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, if an academia I got summers off, 1153 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:02,720 Speaker 1: you know, that's good. Like the kids will be home 1154 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,320 Speaker 1: to will be home together. There's those sorts of concerns 1155 01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the time that um guided my career. 1156 01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,120 Speaker 1: You know. It wasn't lofty dreams. It was how do 1157 01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:13,720 Speaker 1: I make this work? Like what corners can I cut? 1158 01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:18,200 Speaker 1: Like how do I get creative satisfaction and just survive economically? Um? 1159 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,040 Speaker 1: And you know I figured out ways to do that. 1160 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,760 Speaker 1: But it's been tough because it's been a tough twenty years. 1161 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,040 Speaker 1: You know, today is actually the twentieth anniversary of my 1162 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,880 Speaker 1: college graduation. And I was saying to my mom this morning, 1163 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:33,640 Speaker 1: that means it's been twenty years of people telling me 1164 01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,640 Speaker 1: that the economy is eventually going to work itself out, 1165 01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:40,440 Speaker 1: Like I'm still waiting. It's now been half my life. UM. 1166 01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, you know I wasn't necessary expecting things to 1167 01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,240 Speaker 1: go well. I know, I wasn't expecting, you know, Donald Trump, 1168 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:50,440 Speaker 1: post of celebrity apprentice to be the aspiring dictator of 1169 01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,320 Speaker 1: my country. But uh, you know I definitely didn't see 1170 01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,160 Speaker 1: a smooth road ahead for myself. Okay, so what year 1171 01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,880 Speaker 1: do you get your PhD? Well, technically I finished it 1172 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:02,360 Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven, late two thousand eleven, I defended 1173 01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,920 Speaker 1: my dissertation, received the actual degree in two thousand twelve. 1174 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,880 Speaker 1: Um And I was a little sneaky. I wanted to 1175 01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:10,760 Speaker 1: be I had had a baby in two thousand eleven, 1176 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,160 Speaker 1: and I wanted to be home with him. Uh and 1177 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,640 Speaker 1: I had a fellowship and national fellowship, I had one. 1178 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,640 Speaker 1: So I basically kind of was a stay at home 1179 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:20,440 Speaker 1: mom for spring semester and then picked up my degree. 1180 01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,800 Speaker 1: But actually during that time I began writing again. UM. 1181 01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:27,400 Speaker 1: I began freelancing in early two thousand twelve for outlets 1182 01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,200 Speaker 1: who were interested in my work on Central Asia, and 1183 01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,840 Speaker 1: then expanding to write about the United States and about 1184 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:39,480 Speaker 1: economic decline, collapse of institutions, politics, areas that I hadn't 1185 01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:43,120 Speaker 1: really written about. Um it wrote about academia itself. I 1186 01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:46,560 Speaker 1: wrote about it as an exploitative industry, which of course 1187 01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,200 Speaker 1: burnt all my bridges uh in academia, But I mean whatever, 1188 01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:52,880 Speaker 1: um And I just felt like there's a need to 1189 01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,200 Speaker 1: be honest about this. I felt like I was in 1190 01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,080 Speaker 1: a game that people like me, you know, we don't 1191 01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,560 Speaker 1: win it. I would have better a lot um and 1192 01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:04,280 Speaker 1: certainly more personal satisfaction, you know, from the perspective of 1193 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:09,760 Speaker 1: valuing integrity and honesty by exposing these exploitative practices and 1194 01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:12,800 Speaker 1: these corrupt systems, then trying to participate in them and 1195 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:14,680 Speaker 1: trying to be part of it. Like part of that 1196 01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:17,160 Speaker 1: is I'm not good at doing that. I'm not good at, 1197 01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, faking it and sucking up and doing all 1198 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,680 Speaker 1: those things you're supposed to do. But I also felt 1199 01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:24,720 Speaker 1: like this is a systemic problem, and it is it's 1200 01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:28,200 Speaker 1: hurting our world, like the it's depriving the world of 1201 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:31,640 Speaker 1: talent and knowledge and good people because all of the 1202 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:35,280 Speaker 1: opportunities are being hearded by elites that have this pay 1203 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:37,880 Speaker 1: to play system where you basically have to pay to 1204 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,640 Speaker 1: apply for jobs, or you have to do unpaid internships, 1205 01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:42,560 Speaker 1: or you have to do very low paid jobs and 1206 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:45,439 Speaker 1: expensive cities. I felt like it was all rigged, and 1207 01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:48,040 Speaker 1: it was you know, I wanted to blow the whistle 1208 01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:49,880 Speaker 1: on it. I felt at that point, honestly, I had 1209 01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:54,560 Speaker 1: very little to lose. Okay, so in this era, after eleven, 1210 01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:57,760 Speaker 1: you start writing, is your husband the main breadwinner at 1211 01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,920 Speaker 1: that point? Yeah? Yeah, well he us. But I still 1212 01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,920 Speaker 1: had my I got a fellowship from wash you. I mean, 1213 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't a lot, it was about twenty dollars. But 1214 01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:09,800 Speaker 1: when the but when the fellowship ends and you have 1215 01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,200 Speaker 1: your degree and you don't go into academia before your 1216 01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:17,040 Speaker 1: first book is published, how lucrative is your writing career? 1217 01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,680 Speaker 1: Not not that lucrative. Probably. I mean I wasn't working 1218 01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:23,200 Speaker 1: full time because I had two little kids, and so 1219 01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,040 Speaker 1: I was, you know, spending a lot of times taking 1220 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,360 Speaker 1: care of them. It's probably making like, I don't know, 1221 01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:31,120 Speaker 1: between twenty five and thirty five thousand a year, which 1222 01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:34,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure in California sounds very low. In Missouri for 1223 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,480 Speaker 1: a mom, staying at home is not that bad, you know, 1224 01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,240 Speaker 1: combined with my husband's salary, because our rent and all 1225 01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,960 Speaker 1: our expensives are a lot cheaper. And so yeah, I 1226 01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,040 Speaker 1: mean I was always kind of hoping that i'd be 1227 01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:51,240 Speaker 1: offered some sort of you know, better paying position. Um, 1228 01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:53,080 Speaker 1: but you know, it was more than I had been 1229 01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:55,920 Speaker 1: making in grad school, for one. And uh. What I 1230 01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,120 Speaker 1: realized though, was that any kind of position I was 1231 01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:01,320 Speaker 1: ineligible for because I refused to move to New York 1232 01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,080 Speaker 1: or to San Francisco or wherever jobs are based with 1233 01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:06,760 Speaker 1: a family, because I could never afford that, you know, here, 1234 01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:08,440 Speaker 1: I could buy a house you know there I could 1235 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:10,680 Speaker 1: live in a closet and pay like three thousand dollars 1236 01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,280 Speaker 1: or something, and you do own a house. Yeah, yeah, 1237 01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:16,440 Speaker 1: you in the bank own a house. Okay, yeah, exactly. 1238 01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,160 Speaker 1: Tell me the story of fly Over Country, how you 1239 01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:21,280 Speaker 1: get a deal, how that comes out in the reaction 1240 01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,120 Speaker 1: there too, Well, that was just that was a fluke. 1241 01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:26,640 Speaker 1: I mean basically, in two thousand and twelve, I started 1242 01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:30,440 Speaker 1: writing for Al Jazeera on pretty much a weekly basis, 1243 01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,120 Speaker 1: writing essays. And when I left, I I quit Al 1244 01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:38,720 Speaker 1: Jazeera in because they were launching Al Jazeera America, um, 1245 01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:42,000 Speaker 1: and they basically just wanted like hot takes, and uh, 1246 01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:44,840 Speaker 1: I had a new editor. My editor quit and protest. 1247 01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:47,440 Speaker 1: Other people quittin protests, and so eventually I did too. 1248 01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:49,800 Speaker 1: And my readers were like, I wish all your essays 1249 01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,200 Speaker 1: were in one place, and I said, okay, And so 1250 01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,640 Speaker 1: you know, I put them together myself, um, in a book, 1251 01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:57,480 Speaker 1: you know, I called if You for fly Over Country. 1252 01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:00,400 Speaker 1: I wrote a little introduction and I published it Kindle. 1253 01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:04,520 Speaker 1: It was a self published book and it was surprisingly successful. 1254 01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,840 Speaker 1: And at this point I had had agents from the 1255 01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,800 Speaker 1: publishing world approaching me, you know, wanting to know if 1256 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:11,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to write a book, um, and I had 1257 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,560 Speaker 1: proposed that, actually, I had proposed an essay collection because 1258 01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,080 Speaker 1: I knew there was demand for it. They basically said, 1259 01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:20,200 Speaker 1: you know, no, no one would want that. Um. Also, 1260 01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:22,480 Speaker 1: no one understands really what you're talking about. You know, 1261 01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,280 Speaker 1: you're too gloomy. Things aren't that bad? And I was like, well, 1262 01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, these are viral essays for a reason, like 1263 01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,960 Speaker 1: they're they're resonating with people. And so then I was 1264 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,640 Speaker 1: just sort of like, well, screw these New York people 1265 01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,800 Speaker 1: aren't gonna understand what I'm talking about anyway. I'm just 1266 01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,800 Speaker 1: gonna go about my life. Um. I ended up covering 1267 01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:42,440 Speaker 1: Ferguson from that point on because published the book. What 1268 01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,280 Speaker 1: gains notice for the book, because usually a book doesn't 1269 01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:49,240 Speaker 1: get any notice unless the author works it. Yeah, well, 1270 01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:51,480 Speaker 1: I I mean I promoted it on Twitter, and at 1271 01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,760 Speaker 1: that point, I had, you know, fairly substantial following. I 1272 01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,920 Speaker 1: think I self published in and I had maybe forty 1273 01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:00,280 Speaker 1: or fifty thousand people. I mean at this when of 1274 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,720 Speaker 1: half a million people. So it's changed quite a bit. Um. 1275 01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,760 Speaker 1: You know, Then with that book, what happened was the election. 1276 01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:09,200 Speaker 1: And so when the election happened. And I had been 1277 01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:11,520 Speaker 1: writing about the election all year. I covered it for 1278 01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:14,120 Speaker 1: the Globe and Mail in Canada and for other publications, 1279 01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,800 Speaker 1: and I made lots of predictions that people thought were crazy, 1280 01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,880 Speaker 1: but they all came true. And so suddenly everyone was 1281 01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:21,920 Speaker 1: looking at like, well, what else did she write? And 1282 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:23,880 Speaker 1: you know what, what does she study? And they all 1283 01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:27,280 Speaker 1: wanted this book because the book does describe a lot 1284 01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:32,000 Speaker 1: of the things that Trump exploited. Economic devastation, political paranoia, 1285 01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:35,240 Speaker 1: hyper partisanship, you know, all these these essays about different 1286 01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:39,200 Speaker 1: facets of American decline. It became very, very popular at 1287 01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,840 Speaker 1: the end of twenties sixteen, and um, you know, as 1288 01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:44,880 Speaker 1: you've mentioned in your newsletter, Hillary Clinton was quoting it. Um, 1289 01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,440 Speaker 1: a lot of celebrities were quoting it. Still still self 1290 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,240 Speaker 1: published it. I was still self published. So then what happens. 1291 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,400 Speaker 1: And at that point I had an agent I actually liked. 1292 01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,440 Speaker 1: It's this guy who's in Canada who liked me, you 1293 01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:58,200 Speaker 1: know back when uh like, he didn't like me for 1294 01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:00,440 Speaker 1: like am I popular or not? He liked the quality 1295 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,000 Speaker 1: of my work. So I trusted him because he liked 1296 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:05,160 Speaker 1: me when I wasn't all that well known and he's 1297 01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,800 Speaker 1: still my agent now. So all these publishing houses are 1298 01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,360 Speaker 1: coming to me and they all want to republish View 1299 01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:12,840 Speaker 1: from fly Over Country, and I'm thinking no, like, I'm 1300 01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:15,680 Speaker 1: never gonna let you republish it, because this is my 1301 01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:17,720 Speaker 1: book and I wrote it myself, and I'm worried that 1302 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:19,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna take my words and you're gonna twist them 1303 01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,080 Speaker 1: or you're gonna cut things out. And this went on 1304 01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,479 Speaker 1: and on, Um, and I kept refusing offers until finally 1305 01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:27,559 Speaker 1: the Hillary thing happened, and then we got you know, 1306 01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:31,639 Speaker 1: a lot of interest after that, and I just said, yes, Um, 1307 01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:33,479 Speaker 1: you know, I'll let you buy the rights to this, 1308 01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, and they're paying me in advance as a standard, 1309 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:37,960 Speaker 1: and I wrote you know, some new material for the 1310 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,360 Speaker 1: book as well, and the introduction and the conclusion. But 1311 01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm not changing a word of these essays because they're 1312 01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:45,720 Speaker 1: quoted all over the place, and they're also emblematic of 1313 01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,559 Speaker 1: the time in which they're written, you know, they capture 1314 01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:53,559 Speaker 1: that moment between Um and so I somewhat reluctantly agreed 1315 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,320 Speaker 1: to you know, have a flat iron. McMillan published a 1316 01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,840 Speaker 1: paperback version. Uh, you know, there was demand for that 1317 01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,400 Speaker 1: lot of people. They don't like reading things on kindle. 1318 01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,000 Speaker 1: They want a print version. And I understood that, and 1319 01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:06,600 Speaker 1: I thought, all right, you know, why the hell not. 1320 01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:09,920 Speaker 1: And to my great surprise, it became a best seller. 1321 01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,000 Speaker 1: And I just did not think that would happen, because 1322 01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:14,240 Speaker 1: I mean, really, this is the third go round for 1323 01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:17,360 Speaker 1: this essay collection. You know, first there online, then it 1324 01:09:17,400 --> 01:09:19,400 Speaker 1: was a kindle book, then it's a print books. I thought, well, 1325 01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:21,160 Speaker 1: no one's going to really buy this, like, and I 1326 01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:23,960 Speaker 1: don't think that flat. I thought that either, Like it 1327 01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:27,040 Speaker 1: was understocked everywhere, you know, people were trying to get 1328 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:28,720 Speaker 1: copies of it and could and they had to they 1329 01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,160 Speaker 1: had to print more. But I landed on the New 1330 01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,439 Speaker 1: York Times bestseller list, and so then they made me, 1331 01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:36,599 Speaker 1: you know, another offer for for my next book, um, 1332 01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:38,800 Speaker 1: which again I was a little bit reluctant because of 1333 01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:40,880 Speaker 1: the chaos that we live in, you know, because of 1334 01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:43,559 Speaker 1: these times, like how do you write about politics knowing 1335 01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:46,360 Speaker 1: that your work won't be published for a whole year, 1336 01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:49,120 Speaker 1: you know, when so much changes every day. As I thought, well, 1337 01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,000 Speaker 1: I'll write a history. I'll write a history of the 1338 01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:53,479 Speaker 1: last forty years and of all the things that have 1339 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,439 Speaker 1: transpired that people refused to cover because that will always 1340 01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,639 Speaker 1: be necessary and that will be to some degree current. Although, 1341 01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,200 Speaker 1: as I explained in the book A Challenges, there were 1342 01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,719 Speaker 1: new revelations of that history coming hard and fast throughout 1343 01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:08,439 Speaker 1: nineteen when I was writing it, so that it was 1344 01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:12,240 Speaker 1: challenging in its own right. But yeah, yeah, that's you know, Okay, 1345 01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:16,120 Speaker 1: when when you self published the book, were you making 1346 01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,360 Speaker 1: any money selling it? Oh? Yeah, yeah, with Amazon, you 1347 01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:23,799 Speaker 1: get you keep like se well my question did didn't 1348 01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,360 Speaker 1: add up to a decent pile of money. Um, I mean, 1349 01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:28,559 Speaker 1: I couldn't have lived off it, but it certainly made 1350 01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:30,800 Speaker 1: a you know, it was good. It helped me out. 1351 01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,360 Speaker 1: I mean, especially during the time, like as I mentioned, 1352 01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:36,000 Speaker 1: there's like a sixteen month period where my husband had 1353 01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:37,720 Speaker 1: been laid off, you know, as part of a mass 1354 01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:40,639 Speaker 1: layoff at his company, was looking for jobs. We were 1355 01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,000 Speaker 1: very close to the poverty line. So every little bit helped, 1356 01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:46,639 Speaker 1: you know, like little sums of money like a hundred dollars, 1357 01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:49,080 Speaker 1: two hundred dollars, like they would make a huge difference 1358 01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:52,599 Speaker 1: for us, and so um. But yeah, like in twenty sixteen, 1359 01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,519 Speaker 1: after the election, suddenly the book brought in quite a 1360 01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:57,840 Speaker 1: lot of money. And you know that was, you know, 1361 01:10:57,880 --> 01:10:59,760 Speaker 1: by my standards, quite a lot of money. That was 1362 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,040 Speaker 1: when reasons I was reluctant because I was thinking, well, 1363 01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, this is lucrative for me. I want to 1364 01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:07,000 Speaker 1: hold onto this because what if it doesn't sell anything? 1365 01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,559 Speaker 1: Like what if this advance isn't worth it? So and 1366 01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:11,800 Speaker 1: and so forth. Um, you know, ultimately I think I 1367 01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:14,040 Speaker 1: made the right decision by by letting them put the 1368 01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:17,479 Speaker 1: print one out, But yeah, you know it was I mean, 1369 01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,439 Speaker 1: it had a lot more to do with creative control. 1370 01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:21,880 Speaker 1: Like I wanted those essays meant something to me, and 1371 01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,559 Speaker 1: I wanted to hold onto them, and I I honestly 1372 01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:28,680 Speaker 1: I didn't trust uh, you know, somebody else managing my 1373 01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:32,480 Speaker 1: material that had already been read and was quoted and appreciated. 1374 01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,200 Speaker 1: So I thought it would be better. Though. So you 1375 01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:37,080 Speaker 1: have that book, and you have the subsequent book that 1376 01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:40,439 Speaker 1: came out about six weeks ago, Hiding in Plane Site. 1377 01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:44,479 Speaker 1: You if someone were to research you, You're constantly on 1378 01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:49,280 Speaker 1: TV shows, You're constantly being here and there is because 1379 01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:51,080 Speaker 1: the reason I bring this up is in your book 1380 01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:54,200 Speaker 1: Hiding in Plane Site, you talk about someone who's a 1381 01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:59,599 Speaker 1: well known pundit and is essentially broke it. Needless to say, 1382 01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,559 Speaker 1: you're not paid for these appearances or nothing significant. Have 1383 01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:08,240 Speaker 1: they led to any other economic opportunities? No, I mean 1384 01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,800 Speaker 1: I started my own podcast with a friend of mine, 1385 01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:14,080 Speaker 1: um Andrea Chalupa, who's also an expert on the former 1386 01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:17,439 Speaker 1: Soviet Union, and we started our podcast, Gasola Nation in 1387 01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:20,679 Speaker 1: and I think just the fact that at this point 1388 01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:24,200 Speaker 1: I was relatively well known, especially for you know what 1389 01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:27,360 Speaker 1: the podcast is on, just corruption and autocracy, and she 1390 01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:31,960 Speaker 1: was too. That became an an unsuspected hit. Um. You know, 1391 01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,559 Speaker 1: we we've done very well with that show and so, 1392 01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:37,720 Speaker 1: but that again was an opportunity I created myself. It 1393 01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,599 Speaker 1: was like self publishing the book, where I'm not working 1394 01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,840 Speaker 1: for anybody but me on my own boss. Um. But yeah, 1395 01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:46,960 Speaker 1: you know the interviews I do, it's to get information 1396 01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:50,400 Speaker 1: out to the public. Like I feel like the media 1397 01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,360 Speaker 1: is not covering a lot of very vital topics having 1398 01:12:53,360 --> 01:12:57,480 Speaker 1: to do with organized crying, with state corruption, with rising fascism, 1399 01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,720 Speaker 1: and so when I get my little minute on MSNBC 1400 01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:03,080 Speaker 1: or whatever, I try to pack a lot of information 1401 01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:05,000 Speaker 1: in there because I know it's the only one I'll 1402 01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:06,960 Speaker 1: get and I feel like, you know, you kind of 1403 01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:09,479 Speaker 1: need to to cut through the crap um and tell 1404 01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,400 Speaker 1: Americans what's going on. And I'm by no means saying 1405 01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:16,120 Speaker 1: I'm the only person who knows what's going on, but uh, 1406 01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:17,880 Speaker 1: you know, I think, I guess the way I talk 1407 01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:20,479 Speaker 1: is distinct from the way a lot of pundits choose 1408 01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:23,519 Speaker 1: to present themselves. And I'm not interested in, you know, 1409 01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:28,120 Speaker 1: being an MSNBC contributor or anything like that. That's like 1410 01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:30,200 Speaker 1: not the kind of job I'd want to do. Although 1411 01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:31,840 Speaker 1: I guess nowadays you can just do it from your 1412 01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:35,200 Speaker 1: house and maybe it's more feeling. But um, you know, 1413 01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,320 Speaker 1: that wasn't my goal. My goal is to just kind of, 1414 01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, get the word out there, um, and uh, 1415 01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, and sometimes it's it's fun to do that, 1416 01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:45,400 Speaker 1: you know. I I write to communicate, and so I 1417 01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:47,559 Speaker 1: like it when my words are heard, and I like 1418 01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:49,960 Speaker 1: hearing from my readers, and you know, I like having 1419 01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:54,040 Speaker 1: interesting discussions. Okay, I think it's in no direction home. 1420 01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:56,840 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan says they asked him what he wants and 1421 01:13:56,880 --> 01:13:59,840 Speaker 1: he won't tell them because his dreams are so big. 1422 01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,479 Speaker 1: But I'm going to ask you and in your mind, 1423 01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:06,760 Speaker 1: what do you want to have happened for yourself? I 1424 01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:10,400 Speaker 1: mean for myself. I want this country to remain a democracy. 1425 01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:12,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to rain free. I want to have enough 1426 01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:16,280 Speaker 1: financial stability to you know, travel around and raise my 1427 01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,280 Speaker 1: kids and show them in and I, you know, I'm worried. 1428 01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:21,760 Speaker 1: It's more of what I don't want. That that's what 1429 01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,720 Speaker 1: looms largest in my mind, unfortunately, and it's it's a 1430 01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:27,559 Speaker 1: terrible thing to live through life that way, but I 1431 01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,559 Speaker 1: feel like it's pragmatic. You know, things have changed in 1432 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,719 Speaker 1: a very dire way over the course of my adult life, 1433 01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,160 Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm constantly, you know, battling these things, 1434 01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, like I have to be hyper vigilant. I 1435 01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,240 Speaker 1: have to fight them off. And so if I were 1436 01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:44,880 Speaker 1: to just have anything, it honestly wouldn't be that much. 1437 01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:48,040 Speaker 1: I just want my creative freedom, my ability to speak 1438 01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:51,040 Speaker 1: my mind, a baseline level of income that that keeps 1439 01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,880 Speaker 1: me comfortable. But I don't care that much about you know, 1440 01:14:54,240 --> 01:14:57,960 Speaker 1: material stuff or prestige to what degreed? Do you care 1441 01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:02,120 Speaker 1: about the breath of your wisdom reaching the public, which 1442 01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:04,840 Speaker 1: is not a monetary thing. If people read it, you know, 1443 01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:08,160 Speaker 1: that matters to me. Because you know, I'm especially because 1444 01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:10,640 Speaker 1: I'm trying to send out a warning about things that 1445 01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:12,960 Speaker 1: are happening, you know, to our government that in in 1446 01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,080 Speaker 1: our country that I don't think everyone is aware of. 1447 01:15:15,439 --> 01:15:17,519 Speaker 1: You know, that matters to me. And obviously as a writer, 1448 01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,519 Speaker 1: you know, it's a great feeling to connect with my audience. 1449 01:15:20,560 --> 01:15:22,800 Speaker 1: And I'm very grateful you know when people say that 1450 01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:25,920 Speaker 1: they understand something or they're you know, moved by what 1451 01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,400 Speaker 1: I wrote, or any kind of emotional reaction. I mean, 1452 01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:31,839 Speaker 1: I think that's true for everyone, So that's important to me. Um, 1453 01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, But the whole sort of I don't even know, 1454 01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,559 Speaker 1: Like I don't know what the sort of thing I'm 1455 01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:40,120 Speaker 1: supposed to be striving for for publishing is. You know, 1456 01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:42,360 Speaker 1: people will bring up like awards or prizes and like 1457 01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:44,680 Speaker 1: I don't know what they are. I feel like I've 1458 01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:48,280 Speaker 1: seen this whole rigamarole from academia. Like in academia, I 1459 01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:50,679 Speaker 1: want a ton of prizes and awards and it didn't 1460 01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:52,840 Speaker 1: mean jack ship. I mean unless unless it gave me 1461 01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,520 Speaker 1: some money, you know, so that I could get by. 1462 01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,160 Speaker 1: It just doesn't matter. Like I just want to put 1463 01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:00,720 Speaker 1: work out that I'm satisfied it that I think is 1464 01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:04,040 Speaker 1: actually high quality and good, which is not an easy thing. 1465 01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:06,080 Speaker 1: You know, I do a lot of rewriting. I do 1466 01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:09,160 Speaker 1: a lot of harsh editing of my own work. Um. 1467 01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:11,519 Speaker 1: And so you know, it's a matter of meeting those 1468 01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:14,519 Speaker 1: challenges and also just trying to you know, keep up 1469 01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,400 Speaker 1: with what's happening politically. Uh. And you know, get the 1470 01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:19,599 Speaker 1: word out to to as many people as I can 1471 01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:22,840 Speaker 1: so Uh. In one of your podcasts, you say you're 1472 01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:26,040 Speaker 1: not worried about your reputation. What did you mean by that? 1473 01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:29,439 Speaker 1: I don't worry about what, you know, sort of fancy 1474 01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:33,200 Speaker 1: people like people in powerful positions what they think of me. Um. 1475 01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:35,439 Speaker 1: And I in some respects at this point, have the 1476 01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:38,080 Speaker 1: luxury of doing that because I do run my own podcast, 1477 01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:40,160 Speaker 1: and you know, as a writer, I'm kind of an 1478 01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:42,559 Speaker 1: autonomous unit writing a book. I mean, I do have 1479 01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,439 Speaker 1: to deal with the publishing company and the lawyers and whatnot, 1480 01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:47,960 Speaker 1: and that's not always pleasant. But you know, I essentially 1481 01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:49,840 Speaker 1: am in a unique position where I could do what 1482 01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:52,759 Speaker 1: I want. I'm not trying to climb some kind of ladder. 1483 01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:55,280 Speaker 1: I think the ladder doesn't go anywhere. Uh. And it's 1484 01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:58,120 Speaker 1: also of no interest to me, like, and I get invited. 1485 01:16:58,160 --> 01:16:59,720 Speaker 1: I mean, this guy sounds so obnoxious. But when I 1486 01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:01,920 Speaker 1: get a vited to like a lot of these conferences 1487 01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:04,760 Speaker 1: that people had in the pre pandemic era, you know, 1488 01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:08,680 Speaker 1: I was uncomfortable. I didn't like the fanciness of it, 1489 01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:11,880 Speaker 1: the expense of it, the superficiality of it. I sometimes 1490 01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:14,880 Speaker 1: would meet really great people, people I genuinely respect, and 1491 01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:17,640 Speaker 1: that's always a good thing, but I don't know that 1492 01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:23,200 Speaker 1: the whole world, it's not for me. Um And so yeah, okay, 1493 01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:28,040 Speaker 1: let's go macro. Tell us about Putin, the man, Russia, 1494 01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:32,200 Speaker 1: the country and their plan and interference in the United 1495 01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:36,200 Speaker 1: States and other world affairs. Yeah, well, Putin has basically 1496 01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:39,240 Speaker 1: been plotting the revenge of the Soviet Union ever since 1497 01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:43,679 Speaker 1: he was elected UM in New Year's even And I think, 1498 01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, what we're seeing on a global scale is 1499 01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:49,960 Speaker 1: the influence of not just Putin in the Kremlin, but 1500 01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:54,920 Speaker 1: of Putin and it's uh, you know, oligarch and mafia 1501 01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:59,639 Speaker 1: kind of tri part um, you know, conglomeration where they 1502 01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:03,439 Speaker 1: want autocracy, where they're involved in money laundry, where they 1503 01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:06,800 Speaker 1: see things like NATO and the EU and these international 1504 01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:09,760 Speaker 1: bodies as obstacles to their own goals, you know, and 1505 01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:12,520 Speaker 1: their goals. Putin's goals are the same as any dictator. 1506 01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,720 Speaker 1: So he wants money, he wants power, he wants territory, 1507 01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:18,640 Speaker 1: which we've seen with Crimea. He has openly said, you know, 1508 01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:21,840 Speaker 1: he wants to bring the Soviet Union back together. He 1509 01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:24,719 Speaker 1: said that the dissolution of it was the great tragedy 1510 01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:27,240 Speaker 1: of his life. And he sees people like Trump as 1511 01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:30,200 Speaker 1: useful vehicles for this goal. And you know, the book 1512 01:18:30,280 --> 01:18:33,600 Speaker 1: lays out how Trump has both had political ambition in 1513 01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,479 Speaker 1: the United States UM and with the Republican Party with 1514 01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:40,599 Speaker 1: operatives like Roger Stone for over thirty years, and has 1515 01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,519 Speaker 1: been hooked up to the Kremlin and to especially the 1516 01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:46,960 Speaker 1: Russian mafia for over thirty years because there who bailed 1517 01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:50,680 Speaker 1: him out after his bankruptcies when nobody else, you know, 1518 01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,880 Speaker 1: would would invest in him. The Russians made an investment 1519 01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:57,080 Speaker 1: in Donald Trump and it paid off very well for them. 1520 01:18:57,080 --> 01:18:59,600 Speaker 1: And I should specify that by I shouldn't say Russians. 1521 01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:03,000 Speaker 1: It's Aligarcs from the former Soviet Union and mobsters from 1522 01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:05,920 Speaker 1: the former Soviet Union. And they're not always from Russia 1523 01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:09,240 Speaker 1: the country. They're not always you know, ethnically Russian. There 1524 01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:12,320 Speaker 1: are people who profited off the dissolution of the Soviet 1525 01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:16,000 Speaker 1: Union themselves, you know, which is honestly, that's the model 1526 01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,960 Speaker 1: that I think they want for the United States. They 1527 01:19:18,960 --> 01:19:21,800 Speaker 1: wanted to be weak, they wanted to fall apart, and 1528 01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:26,000 Speaker 1: then they want to make money, taking resources, taking over businesses, 1529 01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,439 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. You talk a lot 1530 01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:33,439 Speaker 1: in the book about a transnational crime syndicate, and you 1531 01:19:33,479 --> 01:19:37,200 Speaker 1: say in the US, the Italian mafia has been replaced 1532 01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:40,040 Speaker 1: by the Russian mafia. I don't think the average even 1533 01:19:40,040 --> 01:19:43,479 Speaker 1: though you quote sources in the government warning about this, 1534 01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't believe the average American is aware of this. 1535 01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:51,479 Speaker 1: How bad is it? It's it's very bad, especially because, uh, 1536 01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:54,320 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of this kind of happened legally 1537 01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:57,080 Speaker 1: in a way. Uh. You know, the border between white 1538 01:19:57,080 --> 01:20:00,600 Speaker 1: collar crime and organized crime really began to blur in 1539 01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:02,920 Speaker 1: the nine nineties, and one of the hot spots for 1540 01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:05,439 Speaker 1: this was of course New York City, Um, you know, 1541 01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:09,160 Speaker 1: with deregulation on Wall Street. And then what happened was, 1542 01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,919 Speaker 1: you know, you had Juliani in the nineteen eighties basically 1543 01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:16,320 Speaker 1: cracking down on the Italian mafia weakening them. And then 1544 01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:19,360 Speaker 1: after the collapse of the Soviet Union, where people from 1545 01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:22,640 Speaker 1: that region were able to travel, including its top criminals, 1546 01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:25,160 Speaker 1: they set up shop in New York City. Some of 1547 01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:27,280 Speaker 1: them had already been doing that in the nineteen eighties. 1548 01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:29,559 Speaker 1: They were living in Trump Tower. You know. Trump Tower 1549 01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:32,599 Speaker 1: is basically functioning as a dorm for the Russian mafia. 1550 01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:35,960 Speaker 1: And they began to move their dirty money in and 1551 01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,240 Speaker 1: out of all these New York properties, including others owned 1552 01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:42,040 Speaker 1: by Donald Trump, and they gained quite a foothold. And 1553 01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:45,040 Speaker 1: some of them, you know, went and worked on Wall Street. 1554 01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:47,160 Speaker 1: They worked for these big firms, and that that's what 1555 01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:50,280 Speaker 1: I mean by that line being very much blurred. And 1556 01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:52,799 Speaker 1: I think there is a tendency in the United States 1557 01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,639 Speaker 1: to be very forgiving of these figures. They're like, oh, 1558 01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, poor Russians. You know, they were a communists 1559 01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,800 Speaker 1: and now they're just having trouble figuring out this capitalist thing. 1560 01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:04,479 Speaker 1: It's like, no, these are seasoned criminals. They understand high 1561 01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:08,360 Speaker 1: finance very well, they understand organized crime very well, and 1562 01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:11,200 Speaker 1: they are duping you. You are thinking that they're playing dumb, 1563 01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:14,240 Speaker 1: but they're actually very intelligent. And honestly, I don't think 1564 01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:17,240 Speaker 1: Trump is particularly intelligent, but I think he's intelligent at 1565 01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:19,240 Speaker 1: playing dumb as well. He pretends to be a lot 1566 01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:22,280 Speaker 1: stupider than he is because he is smart when it 1567 01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:24,880 Speaker 1: comes to crime. He knows exactly the amount he needs 1568 01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:27,640 Speaker 1: to know, and he knows how to function within a 1569 01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:31,599 Speaker 1: criminal organization. But yeah, the Russian mafia took over where 1570 01:21:31,640 --> 01:21:35,280 Speaker 1: the Italian mafia left off, and they're still very active. 1571 01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:37,519 Speaker 1: You know, It's true, not just in New York, but 1572 01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:41,479 Speaker 1: in most major cities. Miami is another hot spot, Southern 1573 01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:44,400 Speaker 1: Florida in general. Uh, And no one cracked on on them. 1574 01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:47,360 Speaker 1: There was a crackdown in the late nineties, but once 1575 01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:50,920 Speaker 1: nine eleven happened, all those resources at the FBI that 1576 01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:54,599 Speaker 1: we're looking into Russian organized crime, UH turned to you know, 1577 01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:59,240 Speaker 1: Islamic terrorism, preventing future attacks and so forth, and they 1578 01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:02,080 Speaker 1: forgot about them. But they were still working, and they 1579 01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:04,320 Speaker 1: realized that one of the wisest things they could do 1580 01:22:04,479 --> 01:22:08,080 Speaker 1: to keep their illegal operations going was to infiltrate government 1581 01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:12,120 Speaker 1: and infiltrate institutions and make those institutions work for them. 1582 01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:15,160 Speaker 1: And so you have, you know, things like the former 1583 01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:18,120 Speaker 1: directors of the FBI in the nineties, Lewis Free, William 1584 01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:21,439 Speaker 1: Sessions going on to work for the Russian mafia, as 1585 01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:26,519 Speaker 1: you know, consultants working for various firms. It's it's frightening, um, 1586 01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:28,280 Speaker 1: And it's frightening to me that people don't talk about 1587 01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:31,280 Speaker 1: it more because it is a profound national security threat. 1588 01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:34,759 Speaker 1: Mueller himself in two thousand and eleven wrote a speech 1589 01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:38,040 Speaker 1: about what a security threat this was to Western democracy, 1590 01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:41,519 Speaker 1: how incredibly dangerous these people are, and now they're in 1591 01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:44,360 Speaker 1: the White House. Okay, so we covered a little bit 1592 01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:49,960 Speaker 1: of sixteen in Russia interference with the election, but certainly 1593 01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:52,599 Speaker 1: the you from this side of the pond, looking at 1594 01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:55,720 Speaker 1: the government, etcetera, to what degree is it a factor? 1595 01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:59,360 Speaker 1: To what degree was it bungled by either Mueller, Pelosi, 1596 01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,000 Speaker 1: Shoe or what happened? What and what should have happened? 1597 01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:06,720 Speaker 1: They all really screwed up. Like I was getting incredibly 1598 01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:10,360 Speaker 1: worried in the months leading up to November twenty six 1599 01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:13,160 Speaker 1: because I saw clearly what was happening, like when Trump 1600 01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:16,680 Speaker 1: asked Russia to get him Hillary Clinton's emails at a 1601 01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:20,080 Speaker 1: press conference and then nothing was done after that. Um, 1602 01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,120 Speaker 1: I was like, they're they're not going to do anything 1603 01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:24,000 Speaker 1: about this. They're going to let this happen. And I 1604 01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,640 Speaker 1: knew that, at least for you know, the Kremlin. The 1605 01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:29,320 Speaker 1: ambition was to turn the US into something like a 1606 01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:32,519 Speaker 1: a proxy state of Russia. And I knew that for um, 1607 01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:35,360 Speaker 1: you know, these organized criminal bodies, this is going to 1608 01:23:35,439 --> 01:23:39,440 Speaker 1: be a windfall. And I still don't understand the dereliction 1609 01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:43,080 Speaker 1: of duty in the Obama administration because they were warned, 1610 01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, um, they knew that Russia was after them. 1611 01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:49,280 Speaker 1: They had hacked by that time, the State Department, the 1612 01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:51,920 Speaker 1: d o D, the d n C, the r n Z. 1613 01:23:52,280 --> 01:23:54,720 Speaker 1: They had hacked like every governmental body. And then we 1614 01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:57,840 Speaker 1: found out in twenty eight that Russia had infiltrated the 1615 01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,000 Speaker 1: treasury and twenty I mean you found out in twenty 1616 01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:04,520 Speaker 1: eighteen that they had infiltrated the treasury. In the Obama administration, 1617 01:24:04,760 --> 01:24:07,679 Speaker 1: for reasons I still don't fully comprehend, did very little 1618 01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:10,479 Speaker 1: about this, and I don't think they necessarily welcomed it 1619 01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:12,720 Speaker 1: or approved of it. But they didn't stop it, and 1620 01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:15,960 Speaker 1: they didn't take it seriously, and the FBI did nothing 1621 01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:18,719 Speaker 1: to stop it either. Harry Reid, when he was sentate 1622 01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,680 Speaker 1: minority leader, sent a letter to James Comby in the 1623 01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:25,040 Speaker 1: summer of sixteen, saying you have to warn the American 1624 01:24:25,080 --> 01:24:27,880 Speaker 1: public about Russia and the election because they're planning to 1625 01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,439 Speaker 1: falsify the official results. And so when I saw that letter, 1626 01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:34,120 Speaker 1: which was an open letter, I was like, my God, 1627 01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:36,479 Speaker 1: Like for the Senate Minority leader to say that, that's 1628 01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:39,600 Speaker 1: an incredible statement. Why is no one in the press 1629 01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,160 Speaker 1: covering this or very few people, like why is this 1630 01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:44,920 Speaker 1: not on television? Why aren't we looking at this in 1631 01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:48,400 Speaker 1: the context of Trump's long relationship with the Russian mafia 1632 01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:51,280 Speaker 1: or Paul Manafort, who at that point, you know, had 1633 01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:56,120 Speaker 1: been working as a oligarch lackey for various Kremlin affiliated actors, Like, 1634 01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:59,080 Speaker 1: there were so many connections to look at. You know, 1635 01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:01,559 Speaker 1: there was also Wicki Weeks in its connection to Russia, 1636 01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:04,840 Speaker 1: and no one was doing anything. And I realized in October, like, 1637 01:25:05,040 --> 01:25:08,000 Speaker 1: they're just gonna let this happen. They're gonna just let 1638 01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:10,280 Speaker 1: him win. And then I don't know what the hell 1639 01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:12,559 Speaker 1: is going to happen to America, but it's not gonna 1640 01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:15,519 Speaker 1: be good. And then that's been the pattern since you know, Mueller, 1641 01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:19,559 Speaker 1: blewett Um. I think possibly intentionally, the Democrats have been 1642 01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:23,680 Speaker 1: incredibly timid. The Republicans are complicit. So yeah, you know 1643 01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:25,640 Speaker 1: when I say I don't think anyone's gonna save us, 1644 01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:27,760 Speaker 1: it's because I've seen all the people who were in 1645 01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:31,040 Speaker 1: a position to make a meaningful difference to protect us, 1646 01:25:31,240 --> 01:25:33,800 Speaker 1: they all refused to do so. Um And you know, 1647 01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:36,840 Speaker 1: I know that there are threats involved in bribes and blackmail, 1648 01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,080 Speaker 1: but you know, we're all we're all taking a risk here, 1649 01:25:40,200 --> 01:25:42,240 Speaker 1: Like I take a risk here just talking about this. 1650 01:25:42,320 --> 01:25:44,200 Speaker 1: So I kind of look at them with all of 1651 01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:47,080 Speaker 1: their private security and all their money and all their influence, 1652 01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:49,599 Speaker 1: and I'm like, come on, like, do the bare minimum 1653 01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:52,400 Speaker 1: for your country here, Like, I really don't understand how 1654 01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:54,599 Speaker 1: you think this is going to end up, because it's 1655 01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:56,840 Speaker 1: not gonna end up well for you in the end. Either, 1656 01:25:57,040 --> 01:25:59,800 Speaker 1: it's not gonna end up well for any of us. Oh, 1657 01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:04,840 Speaker 1: your book Hiding in Plain Site is very well documented. Okay, 1658 01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,599 Speaker 1: a lot of people they dash off a book, its theories, whatever, 1659 01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:12,800 Speaker 1: But you literally linking two things. People said, Okay, hey, 1660 01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:15,120 Speaker 1: why did no one pick up on these stories which 1661 01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:17,120 Speaker 1: you covered a little bit? And do you believe now 1662 01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:19,960 Speaker 1: that you delineated these things there will be a move 1663 01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:22,720 Speaker 1: on them. I don't know, because you know, there have 1664 01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:25,760 Speaker 1: been other best selling books kind of either on the 1665 01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:28,920 Speaker 1: subject You're related to it by David K. Johnston, Michael 1666 01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:33,080 Speaker 1: Malcolm Nance, Craig Unger on the Russian mafia aspect. You know, 1667 01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:35,599 Speaker 1: they they've laid this out and there's certainly been a 1668 01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:39,120 Speaker 1: lot of documentation of Trump's corruption and barkins Trump confesses 1669 01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:40,640 Speaker 1: to it all the time, like you don't have to 1670 01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:42,519 Speaker 1: look that hard, you know, he goes on Lester Hole 1671 01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:44,760 Speaker 1: and he's like, yeah, I committed obstruction and justice. And 1672 01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, Donald Trump Jr. Tweets out his emails that 1673 01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:50,400 Speaker 1: are very damning. So no one has acted on this 1674 01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:52,600 Speaker 1: even though it's in the public light. Um. You know, 1675 01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:55,719 Speaker 1: my book Hiding in Plain Site has has been very popular. 1676 01:26:55,800 --> 01:26:57,400 Speaker 1: It was, you know, it is a best seller on 1677 01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:00,120 Speaker 1: multiple lists. Uh. You know, I didn't notice though that 1678 01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:02,720 Speaker 1: you know, no one not no one would review it, 1679 01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:05,200 Speaker 1: but the standard places that would review a book put 1680 01:27:05,200 --> 01:27:07,639 Speaker 1: out by McMillan that's the best seller, Like the Times, 1681 01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:09,960 Speaker 1: with Watching and Post, they're not going near this thing 1682 01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:13,240 Speaker 1: because I think it's still taboo. And you know, the 1683 01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,280 Speaker 1: same thing is kind of true sometimes with television, people 1684 01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:19,200 Speaker 1: are very afraid of the subject. Like a natural place 1685 01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:21,120 Speaker 1: for all of these things that are in my book 1686 01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:24,840 Speaker 1: to be discussed was the impeachment hearings because it directly 1687 01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:28,519 Speaker 1: reflected what happened in you know, they tried to make 1688 01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:32,200 Speaker 1: about twenty nineteen and about Ukraine, but the background that 1689 01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:36,839 Speaker 1: was in Russia and Trump's long relationship with the Kremlin 1690 01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:40,360 Speaker 1: and the relationship of people in his circle like Giuliani, 1691 01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:43,200 Speaker 1: Roger stone mana for etcetera to the Kremlin, and of 1692 01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:45,479 Speaker 1: course the Muller Report. If they aren't going to do 1693 01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:48,639 Speaker 1: it an impeachment, it's hard for me to imagine them 1694 01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:51,439 Speaker 1: doing it now. And I hope that I am adding 1695 01:27:51,479 --> 01:27:55,160 Speaker 1: pressure or at least I'm educating, you know, average Americans 1696 01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:57,599 Speaker 1: on what the government should be telling them. Like I've 1697 01:27:57,640 --> 01:27:59,559 Speaker 1: had people write to me and they're like, this is 1698 01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:01,679 Speaker 1: what I thought at the Mueller Report would be like 1699 01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:03,800 Speaker 1: like this is the kind of information that I've been 1700 01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:05,880 Speaker 1: looking for, And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's been 1701 01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:08,599 Speaker 1: out there. Like I'm standing on the shoulders if many 1702 01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:10,920 Speaker 1: other people who have tried to tell this story, you know, 1703 01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:13,559 Speaker 1: and I'm good, I think at weaving these things together 1704 01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:17,000 Speaker 1: because they can be very complicated. But a lot of 1705 01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:19,760 Speaker 1: folks have been trying to get this out and officials 1706 01:28:19,760 --> 01:28:23,080 Speaker 1: have just refused to act on the information. Now, not 1707 01:28:23,240 --> 01:28:28,559 Speaker 1: only did Trump beat impeachment, he is systematically getting rid 1708 01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:31,000 Speaker 1: of people who are not loyalists, who are not only 1709 01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:34,600 Speaker 1: you know what he calls not only elected whatever or 1710 01:28:34,640 --> 01:28:37,599 Speaker 1: not not only part of his cabinet, but people who 1711 01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:41,719 Speaker 1: were part of the bureaucracy what he calls the deep state. 1712 01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:45,439 Speaker 1: We're just gonna let him get away with this. I mean, 1713 01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:48,080 Speaker 1: I wouldn't if I were if I were in charge, 1714 01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:51,479 Speaker 1: but I'm not. Um, you know, it's frustrating to me 1715 01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:54,360 Speaker 1: because there they act shocked every time this happens. Like 1716 01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:58,000 Speaker 1: I see these officials, senators, congressmen, what have you on 1717 01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:00,960 Speaker 1: Twitter and they're like, oh my god, I can't believe it. 1718 01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:03,520 Speaker 1: Can you believe that they just fired the ethics investigator? 1719 01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:06,000 Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, like where you've been? And I 1720 01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:09,559 Speaker 1: think that their tactic there is to feign shock, because 1721 01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:12,800 Speaker 1: if you are not shocked, then you have to enforce accountability. 1722 01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:15,280 Speaker 1: And if everything is a continual surprise to you, then 1723 01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:17,439 Speaker 1: no one is going to expect you to actually do 1724 01:29:17,479 --> 01:29:20,080 Speaker 1: your job. But I do expect them um to do 1725 01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:23,240 Speaker 1: their jobs, and I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. 1726 01:29:23,320 --> 01:29:24,840 Speaker 1: You know, as I said, I do have I have 1727 01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:29,160 Speaker 1: sympathy for our representatives because they're dealing with a mafia state. 1728 01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:32,519 Speaker 1: You know, these are very dangerous people. During the Impatient hearings, 1729 01:29:32,560 --> 01:29:36,200 Speaker 1: they admitted that Trump essentially ordered a hit on Marie Ivanovitch, 1730 01:29:36,320 --> 01:29:40,040 Speaker 1: the U S Ambassador Ukraine. The others who testified, Fiona Hill, 1731 01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:44,000 Speaker 1: Alexander Vinman. They had to have private security at the 1732 01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:48,240 Speaker 1: hearings for Manaphor and for Roger Stone. The judges were threatened, 1733 01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:51,400 Speaker 1: the jury was threatened, and there have been so many 1734 01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:55,880 Speaker 1: unexplained deaths, sudden deaths and murders. You know, if people 1735 01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:59,800 Speaker 1: like Jamalka shogi um throughout this administration. So yes, I 1736 01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:02,400 Speaker 1: that there are risks, but I don't think that you 1737 01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:06,680 Speaker 1: should get involved in politics and you know, run for 1738 01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,720 Speaker 1: office if you're not willing to take these people on. 1739 01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:11,800 Speaker 1: And there are exceptions to this. You know, there are 1740 01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:14,479 Speaker 1: people in government who have tried to take this on. 1741 01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:17,479 Speaker 1: I think, you know, Warren has been very outspoken about corruption. 1742 01:30:17,800 --> 01:30:20,320 Speaker 1: I think, you know, Adam Schiff, I've had some criticisms 1743 01:30:20,360 --> 01:30:22,480 Speaker 1: of him, But I think he was good during impeachment, 1744 01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:25,080 Speaker 1: and I think he wanted to say more. I often 1745 01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:28,000 Speaker 1: sensed that tendency from these officials. They want to tell 1746 01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:30,400 Speaker 1: Americans the whole story. They want to be able to 1747 01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:32,400 Speaker 1: talk about the things that I talked about in my 1748 01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:34,599 Speaker 1: book and that others have talked about in their books. 1749 01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:37,000 Speaker 1: And it's astounding to me that since we all kind 1750 01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:39,479 Speaker 1: of know it, you know, it's out there now, that 1751 01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:41,680 Speaker 1: they still won't go down that road. And I'm not 1752 01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:45,360 Speaker 1: completely sure it's holding them back, whether it's greed, you know, 1753 01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:50,600 Speaker 1: maybe there's donors, donor money um that influences they're thinking threats, blackmail. 1754 01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:53,080 Speaker 1: But at this point, it's like we have a you know, 1755 01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:57,120 Speaker 1: a surreal, sort of lopsided sense of reality. We're on 1756 01:30:57,120 --> 01:30:59,280 Speaker 1: one hand, they're acting like everything is normal. We're just 1757 01:30:59,280 --> 01:31:01,720 Speaker 1: gonna have a reg year old election in November, and 1758 01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, we're not going to talk about this mafia stuff. 1759 01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:06,400 Speaker 1: And then you see Trump just overtly acting like a 1760 01:31:06,439 --> 01:31:08,720 Speaker 1: mob boss, you know, shaking people down, like what he 1761 01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:11,040 Speaker 1: did to the governors, what he did to different states 1762 01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:13,320 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, where it's like you do what I say, 1763 01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:15,840 Speaker 1: or you don't get medical equipment. It's like, good God, 1764 01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:18,040 Speaker 1: how much clearer does it have to be that this 1765 01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:20,320 Speaker 1: is the mindset and that this is the behavior, and 1766 01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:23,799 Speaker 1: how dangerous this is to ordinary people, to sick people, 1767 01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:26,920 Speaker 1: to victims of this um and they still just they 1768 01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:28,760 Speaker 1: won't call it like it is. They won't call him 1769 01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:32,000 Speaker 1: a criminal. Uh. And then now there's a sort of 1770 01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:34,600 Speaker 1: agenda going on to try to flip this script to 1771 01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:36,720 Speaker 1: be like, oh, no, you know, it's really Biden that's 1772 01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:39,559 Speaker 1: the big threat. Biden's the criminal, and the media once 1773 01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:41,880 Speaker 1: again is falling into the scene trap that they did 1774 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:46,160 Speaker 1: in Okay, you're other than Bill Maher, You're the only 1775 01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:50,200 Speaker 1: public figure I'm aware of. That said, even if he loses, 1776 01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:53,400 Speaker 1: Trump won't leave. Could he amplify that place? Yeah? I 1777 01:31:53,479 --> 01:31:57,559 Speaker 1: felt that way since because once an autocrat gets into power, 1778 01:31:57,720 --> 01:31:59,880 Speaker 1: and that is what Trump wants to be, they it's 1779 01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:03,200 Speaker 1: very difficult to get them out because they'll rewrite rules, 1780 01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:07,160 Speaker 1: they'll pack courts, they'll purge agencies, they put the conditions 1781 01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:10,120 Speaker 1: in place to make not leaving much easier. And he 1782 01:32:10,160 --> 01:32:14,200 Speaker 1: also violates norms. You know, we've seemed countlessly over the 1783 01:32:14,280 --> 01:32:18,080 Speaker 1: last four years. How much American democracy and its stability 1784 01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:21,599 Speaker 1: rests on norms and expectations of behavior that he has 1785 01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:24,240 Speaker 1: fine breaking because he has no sense of shame and 1786 01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:26,080 Speaker 1: he has no sense of you know, this is the 1787 01:32:26,080 --> 01:32:27,800 Speaker 1: way that things need to be done. This is the 1788 01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:31,439 Speaker 1: precedent for this sort of you know time. So if 1789 01:32:31,479 --> 01:32:34,160 Speaker 1: he loses a selection, if by some miracle we have 1790 01:32:34,240 --> 01:32:37,160 Speaker 1: a free and fair election Biden wins, he's just gonna 1791 01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:39,439 Speaker 1: say it's I legitimate. He's gonna say it's rigged, or 1792 01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:41,320 Speaker 1: he's gonna say, you know, the country can't afford to 1793 01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:44,160 Speaker 1: change right now because of coronavirus or whatever. And he 1794 01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:47,000 Speaker 1: won't go. And I think, you know, Michael cohen Um 1795 01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:50,040 Speaker 1: during his hearing in early twenty nineteen, he said the 1796 01:32:50,080 --> 01:32:52,320 Speaker 1: same thing, that Trump is refusing to go. And now 1797 01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:54,599 Speaker 1: we're hearing Kushner saying, oh, I don't know if there's 1798 01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:57,599 Speaker 1: going to be an election, and so yes, everyone should 1799 01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:00,280 Speaker 1: be very prepared for the possibility that he won't leave, 1800 01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:02,280 Speaker 1: and if it gets to the point where they're actually 1801 01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:04,559 Speaker 1: trying to take him out of power, that there will 1802 01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:08,720 Speaker 1: be violence on the streets of this country from his supporters. 1803 01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:10,920 Speaker 1: But I don't even think it's so much from his 1804 01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:15,760 Speaker 1: voters as from fanatics that have associated themselves with him, uh, 1805 01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:17,880 Speaker 1: you know, attached themselves to him, using him as a 1806 01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:21,479 Speaker 1: vehicle for their own causes, looking for violence. I think 1807 01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:24,519 Speaker 1: we're going to have a very very difficult time between 1808 01:33:24,720 --> 01:33:28,280 Speaker 1: November and January. At the least, you know, if the 1809 01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:31,720 Speaker 1: Democrat were to lose outright for getting you know, jerrymandering 1810 01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:36,879 Speaker 1: and voter suppression whatever, it's it's much easier process for Trump. 1811 01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:40,120 Speaker 1: But if a Democrat were to win, if you were 1812 01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:44,240 Speaker 1: advising Biden appears to be the candidate, Uh, if you 1813 01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:47,360 Speaker 1: were advising Biden and the d n C, what would 1814 01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:50,639 Speaker 1: you tell them to do in terms of protecting election 1815 01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:54,439 Speaker 1: security or just in general in general? Well, I would 1816 01:33:54,439 --> 01:33:56,280 Speaker 1: tell him right now he needs to come out with 1817 01:33:56,320 --> 01:33:59,200 Speaker 1: a coalition. Like it cannot be just about Biden. Like 1818 01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:01,800 Speaker 1: Trump is a he has a personality cold and I 1819 01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:04,240 Speaker 1: think it would be effective for the Democrats if they 1820 01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:07,240 Speaker 1: presented themselves as a group, you know, including others who 1821 01:34:07,360 --> 01:34:10,920 Speaker 1: ran for president, people like Warren Sanders, uh, you know, 1822 01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:12,680 Speaker 1: even the ones they didn't like quite as much, like 1823 01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:15,200 Speaker 1: Buddha judge, you know, to to present themselves as we 1824 01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:18,080 Speaker 1: are a group, we are public servants. We are creating 1825 01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:21,519 Speaker 1: policy for you, we are serving you. And I think others, 1826 01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:24,040 Speaker 1: you know that would be useful here, maybe Stacy Abrams 1827 01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:29,680 Speaker 1: because she does understand election integrity, Alexandria, Alexandria Acossio Cortes Um, 1828 01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:32,200 Speaker 1: they should do that. He should announce his VP choice, 1829 01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:34,519 Speaker 1: he should announce his cabinet, and then they need to 1830 01:34:34,520 --> 01:34:37,840 Speaker 1: work very much on election integrity. And now we have 1831 01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:40,360 Speaker 1: coronavirus um, so I think they need to move to 1832 01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:43,160 Speaker 1: voting by mail. They need to lock that down. It 1833 01:34:43,200 --> 01:34:46,439 Speaker 1: can't be something we're debating in September October, like gee, 1834 01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:48,280 Speaker 1: am I gonna cast my vote? Like they need to 1835 01:34:48,320 --> 01:34:51,600 Speaker 1: have that settled now so that Trump can't do legitimize it. 1836 01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:55,200 Speaker 1: And also just some people can vote without risking their lives. 1837 01:34:55,240 --> 01:34:57,719 Speaker 1: And then there's the other problems of you know, voter 1838 01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:02,479 Speaker 1: ID laws being abused for an interference, hackable machines for 1839 01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:05,519 Speaker 1: those who are voting electronically, like they should have been 1840 01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:07,800 Speaker 1: on top of this stuff years ago. But you know, 1841 01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:10,960 Speaker 1: I I think that even though they weren't, there's no 1842 01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:13,080 Speaker 1: time like the president, so I would include I would 1843 01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:17,040 Speaker 1: encourage them to be transparent with the American public, be like, 1844 01:35:17,080 --> 01:35:19,160 Speaker 1: this is what's happening, this is the problem, this is 1845 01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:21,400 Speaker 1: how we're gonna fix it. None of this little behind 1846 01:35:21,439 --> 01:35:23,679 Speaker 1: the scenes meetings, none of this like we're too good 1847 01:35:23,720 --> 01:35:26,360 Speaker 1: to talk to her own constituents kind of attitude, Like 1848 01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:29,120 Speaker 1: just talk straight, and I think people would be appreciative 1849 01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:32,200 Speaker 1: of that. Okay, what about terror read irrelevant of whether 1850 01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:35,719 Speaker 1: it happened or not. The Republicans do have a good 1851 01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:38,920 Speaker 1: point that the Democrats squeezed out everybody if there was 1852 01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:41,479 Speaker 1: a hint, you know, Al Frankin, who was a great 1853 01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:45,679 Speaker 1: senator or whatever. So what's your viewpoint on this? How 1854 01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:48,599 Speaker 1: should he the left handle the problem that the right 1855 01:35:48,720 --> 01:35:51,760 Speaker 1: is very unified for the left to win, it's a 1856 01:35:51,760 --> 01:35:55,760 Speaker 1: big tent. But because of political correctness and all kinds 1857 01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:59,679 Speaker 1: of subgroups, they end up causing their own problems, which 1858 01:35:59,680 --> 01:36:02,240 Speaker 1: ali and they're people, never mind the people on the 1859 01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:04,920 Speaker 1: other side. Yeah, I mean with terror read, you know, 1860 01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:08,320 Speaker 1: she's a person, and I hate every time this happens. 1861 01:36:08,320 --> 01:36:10,320 Speaker 1: I hate having to see a woman, having to see 1862 01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:12,680 Speaker 1: a person being used as a political pawn and this 1863 01:36:12,800 --> 01:36:15,400 Speaker 1: sort of like what about is um and back and forth, 1864 01:36:15,479 --> 01:36:17,400 Speaker 1: Like you know, I do think with Trump as I 1865 01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:19,679 Speaker 1: lay out in the book, we have an extreme problem 1866 01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:23,240 Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, sexual assault connections to people like Epstein. 1867 01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:25,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean, though, that what Biden did is not 1868 01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:28,800 Speaker 1: a problem, and there is a pattern of sexual harassment, 1869 01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:31,760 Speaker 1: and I think that he needs to be upfront about that. 1870 01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:35,120 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I am not completely convinced by Tara 1871 01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:37,400 Speaker 1: Reid's story. I'm also not unconvinced by it, and I 1872 01:36:37,479 --> 01:36:39,760 Speaker 1: don't want to attack her like I hate that. You know, 1873 01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:42,639 Speaker 1: we're in this position where we have to evaluate, Um, 1874 01:36:42,680 --> 01:36:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, another person who's put her whole life on 1875 01:36:45,040 --> 01:36:47,800 Speaker 1: the line by being in the public eye. Um, But 1876 01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:50,040 Speaker 1: I think that he needs to be uh, you know, 1877 01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:54,960 Speaker 1: straightforward and not defensive and you know, talk about his 1878 01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:58,000 Speaker 1: own behavior. I mean, I think, I mean, in a way, 1879 01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:01,360 Speaker 1: it's like I say, honestly, is honesty is the best policy, 1880 01:37:01,640 --> 01:37:04,800 Speaker 1: knowing full well that the GOP always exploits it. But 1881 01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:08,160 Speaker 1: I don't see a way out of this. I think admitting, um, 1882 01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:11,719 Speaker 1: you know, personal or institutional failures can actually be helpful 1883 01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:14,680 Speaker 1: when you have a population that is so disillusion from 1884 01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:17,960 Speaker 1: the barrage of lies and propaganda. You know, a lot 1885 01:37:17,960 --> 01:37:20,439 Speaker 1: of people fell for Trump because they fell for this 1886 01:37:20,520 --> 01:37:23,679 Speaker 1: illusion of authenticity. They thought that he was being honest, 1887 01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:25,760 Speaker 1: even if he was being awful. They thought it was 1888 01:37:25,800 --> 01:37:28,080 Speaker 1: some sort of awful honesty, which is not you know, 1889 01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:30,519 Speaker 1: he's a he's a chronic liar. But I think that 1890 01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:33,240 Speaker 1: that just uh as a stance is a way to go. 1891 01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:36,639 Speaker 1: Who should be the vice presidential candidate and who will be? 1892 01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:38,559 Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like he's going to make 1893 01:37:38,560 --> 01:37:40,960 Speaker 1: a bad decision. I mean, I think he's gonna pick 1894 01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:45,639 Speaker 1: like Biden Junior type. A lot of people talking about Warren, 1895 01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:49,799 Speaker 1: you know, who was my preferred candidate to as VP. UM. 1896 01:37:49,840 --> 01:37:52,519 Speaker 1: I would be content with that, but I basically like, 1897 01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:54,840 Speaker 1: I want Warren to be like the Dick Cheney of 1898 01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:58,160 Speaker 1: this whole administration, Like I want her plans implemented. I 1899 01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:00,960 Speaker 1: want her behind the scenes calling the shots. One thing 1900 01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:04,320 Speaker 1: that's very unusual about Biden is that he is so elderly, 1901 01:38:04,439 --> 01:38:06,840 Speaker 1: and he's spoken about how he might not be there 1902 01:38:07,040 --> 01:38:09,200 Speaker 1: for a second term. So whoever he picks as a 1903 01:38:09,320 --> 01:38:13,360 Speaker 1: VP is potentially, uh, you know, the next presidential candidate, 1904 01:38:13,360 --> 01:38:15,280 Speaker 1: and we may be going through all this again in 1905 01:38:15,320 --> 01:38:17,720 Speaker 1: four years. Honestly, if we're lucky, we'll be going through 1906 01:38:17,720 --> 01:38:21,840 Speaker 1: this again with having had a democratic um administration. But 1907 01:38:22,080 --> 01:38:24,360 Speaker 1: I think that she's very knowledgeable and at the least 1908 01:38:24,680 --> 01:38:28,200 Speaker 1: her plans should be implemented. I'm worried that, as usual, 1909 01:38:28,280 --> 01:38:30,800 Speaker 1: the d N C um in the powers that we 1910 01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:34,320 Speaker 1: are not going to recognize the need for someone, uh, 1911 01:38:34,439 --> 01:38:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, who understands the severity of the corruption that 1912 01:38:38,280 --> 01:38:41,839 Speaker 1: we've experienced, the severity the economic crisis that has plans 1913 01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:44,679 Speaker 1: to fix it. Uh. They often don't seem to recognize 1914 01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:47,280 Speaker 1: the need to be inclusive in that respect. Like I 1915 01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:50,600 Speaker 1: don't like how they're dismissing not just Warren, but Sanders 1916 01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:54,000 Speaker 1: and and his voters as well, because especially during coronavirus, 1917 01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:57,120 Speaker 1: when you have you know, unemployment hovering around twenty five 1918 01:38:57,160 --> 01:39:00,120 Speaker 1: per cent, you know, you need people who understand what 1919 01:39:00,200 --> 01:39:02,800 Speaker 1: it's like to live through poverty and how difficult it 1920 01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:05,559 Speaker 1: was to get by even before this crisis came along. 1921 01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:08,440 Speaker 1: So I don't know, that's why I want to coalition. 1922 01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:11,720 Speaker 1: I want as many like good minds out there as 1923 01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:14,599 Speaker 1: possible and as little ego as possible. Like I'm sick 1924 01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:17,559 Speaker 1: of these political personality colts. I think they're weird, first 1925 01:39:17,560 --> 01:39:19,400 Speaker 1: of all, Like, why are you getting like this over 1926 01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:22,160 Speaker 1: a politician of all people. But they're also just damaging. 1927 01:39:22,160 --> 01:39:25,800 Speaker 1: They're damaging the democracy. Going a little inside baseball. Is 1928 01:39:25,840 --> 01:39:30,320 Speaker 1: Warren the nonstarter because Massachusetts presently have as a Republican 1929 01:39:30,360 --> 01:39:35,280 Speaker 1: governor who most probably would uh pick a Republican to 1930 01:39:35,560 --> 01:39:39,200 Speaker 1: fill Warren's seat. I think if they're looking at at 1931 01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:41,840 Speaker 1: it that way, then they're nuts. I mean, you know, 1932 01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:44,479 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think the Democrats are going to get 1933 01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:47,400 Speaker 1: the Senate anyway, So you're like placing a weird bet. 1934 01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:50,200 Speaker 1: But you need the top people to be in this 1935 01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:53,240 Speaker 1: cabinet in some way to make these big decisions because 1936 01:39:53,280 --> 01:39:55,920 Speaker 1: whoever wins this thing, like if it's you know, assuming 1937 01:39:55,920 --> 01:39:58,519 Speaker 1: it's fight, and all he's going to be doing is 1938 01:39:58,600 --> 01:40:01,120 Speaker 1: digging us out of the hell hole that we are 1939 01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:03,599 Speaker 1: in because of Trump. You know, where you have entire 1940 01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:06,320 Speaker 1: departments that have been dismantled, Like we don't have a 1941 01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:09,280 Speaker 1: State Department. We have a zillion acting uh you know, 1942 01:40:09,439 --> 01:40:12,599 Speaker 1: secretaries of this, secretaries of that. We have a gutted 1943 01:40:12,640 --> 01:40:16,240 Speaker 1: and purged FBI. We have intelligence that's been compromised, like 1944 01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:19,840 Speaker 1: we've had idiots like Jared Krishner going around selling state 1945 01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:23,559 Speaker 1: secrets like the ramifications of what they've done are going 1946 01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:25,680 Speaker 1: to be there for the rest of my life. Like 1947 01:40:25,760 --> 01:40:28,519 Speaker 1: I don't expect to ever see this stuff resolved. And 1948 01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:30,920 Speaker 1: we have things like climate change, we have these existential 1949 01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:34,040 Speaker 1: threats hovering abous. We need the top people, and I 1950 01:40:34,080 --> 01:40:37,160 Speaker 1: think that Warren would be better in uh the government, 1951 01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:41,439 Speaker 1: whether as VP or treasurer or something. Then in the Senate. Um, 1952 01:40:41,479 --> 01:40:44,400 Speaker 1: I think in the Senate they need like attack dog types. 1953 01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:47,200 Speaker 1: I honestly think you know, Sanders is usable in that regard. 1954 01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:49,479 Speaker 1: In the Senate, they need somebody who will tell Mitch 1955 01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:52,080 Speaker 1: McConnell to go uh. I don't know if I could 1956 01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:55,120 Speaker 1: swear on your show to to fund himself. I mean 1957 01:40:55,160 --> 01:40:56,720 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, they need to time to get 1958 01:40:56,720 --> 01:40:58,080 Speaker 1: lost and that they're not gonna put up with his 1959 01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:00,360 Speaker 1: ship anymore. Like they need, uh, they need to get 1960 01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:03,840 Speaker 1: in the ring for the Republican Party. They need a long, 1961 01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:06,639 Speaker 1: you know, kind of kind of rant and just somebody 1962 01:41:06,680 --> 01:41:08,640 Speaker 1: to take them down. But when it comes to like 1963 01:41:08,680 --> 01:41:10,680 Speaker 1: the top people, when it comes to the cabinet, they 1964 01:41:10,680 --> 01:41:13,240 Speaker 1: need the finest minds and they need the best plans 1965 01:41:13,280 --> 01:41:16,719 Speaker 1: because we are in for such a terrible uh four 1966 01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:19,280 Speaker 1: years even in the best of circumstances. And I've got 1967 01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:22,240 Speaker 1: no illusions about that. Let's just assume for the sake 1968 01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:26,720 Speaker 1: of argument, Biden does win. What happens with all the 1969 01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:29,800 Speaker 1: Trump constituents. We saw that Trump wanted to open the 1970 01:41:29,840 --> 01:41:33,200 Speaker 1: country for economic reasons. He got all these crazy people 1971 01:41:33,200 --> 01:41:36,479 Speaker 1: to protest in uh front of governors, in front of 1972 01:41:36,479 --> 01:41:40,080 Speaker 1: the state houses, even though statistically more people wanted to 1973 01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:43,800 Speaker 1: stay home. So if a Democrat, i e. Biden, wins 1974 01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:47,280 Speaker 1: the presidency, I don't anticipate all the Trump supporters gonna 1975 01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:50,799 Speaker 1: roll over. No, And I think it's less the Trump 1976 01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:54,200 Speaker 1: voters or supporters than this very fanatical base. And I 1977 01:41:54,240 --> 01:41:56,559 Speaker 1: was reading an article the other day about how, you know, 1978 01:41:56,600 --> 01:42:00,400 Speaker 1: these little protests like open up Michigan, Liberate this libery 1979 01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:03,720 Speaker 1: that have spread the virus. But in the article it 1980 01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:06,400 Speaker 1: was about how it's basically the same band of like 1981 01:42:06,439 --> 01:42:10,280 Speaker 1: a few hundred people moving from state to state having 1982 01:42:10,320 --> 01:42:13,439 Speaker 1: these protests. These protests are heavily AstroTurf. Like I don't 1983 01:42:13,439 --> 01:42:15,600 Speaker 1: doubt that there are people who are genuine you know, 1984 01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:18,639 Speaker 1: there are people joining in that genuinely they want stuff open. 1985 01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:21,360 Speaker 1: They're very upset, and I understand that to some degree, 1986 01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:24,040 Speaker 1: but a lot of this is fake. Uh and uh, 1987 01:42:24,280 --> 01:42:26,759 Speaker 1: I think that that's kind of true of the Trump base. 1988 01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:30,160 Speaker 1: It's the base is very small. The voters are are 1989 01:42:30,320 --> 01:42:32,240 Speaker 1: larger group than the base, but the base can be 1990 01:42:32,560 --> 01:42:35,640 Speaker 1: riled up to violence. I worry about the q and 1991 01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:38,640 Speaker 1: on phenomenon, where we really seem to have a like 1992 01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:43,240 Speaker 1: a religious cult forming, not quite around Trump, but about 1993 01:42:43,280 --> 01:42:47,559 Speaker 1: ideas of uh, you know, kind of what's a big plan, uh, 1994 01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:50,559 Speaker 1: mythical character. I mean, all of these are signs of 1995 01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:55,080 Speaker 1: like a collapsing society where institutions have completely filled the public. 1996 01:42:55,200 --> 01:42:58,320 Speaker 1: So I don't completely blame them, but I think that 1997 01:42:58,360 --> 01:43:01,080 Speaker 1: they could some of them can be spurred to violence. 1998 01:43:01,120 --> 01:43:04,880 Speaker 1: I think some of Trump's other followers they're already looking 1999 01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:07,960 Speaker 1: for violence. I remember in sixteen when I was covering 2000 01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:10,320 Speaker 1: the election. You know, here in Missouri, there are a 2001 01:43:10,360 --> 01:43:13,000 Speaker 1: lot of people that thought, you know, Trump would win, 2002 01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:16,439 Speaker 1: but he'd be robbed, like Hillary would just take over 2003 01:43:16,600 --> 01:43:18,479 Speaker 1: and she'd be the president and Trump would be able 2004 01:43:18,479 --> 01:43:20,840 Speaker 1: to get an office. And they were ready for civil war. 2005 01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:24,360 Speaker 1: They had bought all these guns, all these weapons, and 2006 01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:26,840 Speaker 1: what people don't understand, I think is that this is 2007 01:43:26,880 --> 01:43:30,200 Speaker 1: expensive like they made an investment in civil war and 2008 01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:32,240 Speaker 1: then they didn't get to have one, and all of 2009 01:43:32,240 --> 01:43:34,479 Speaker 1: those weapons have just been sitting in their homes and 2010 01:43:34,479 --> 01:43:37,040 Speaker 1: they've been waiting for the opportunity. And you know, Trump 2011 01:43:37,120 --> 01:43:40,479 Speaker 1: encourages this. He encourages violence, and so do the people 2012 01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:43,560 Speaker 1: in his camp, and he has a great propaganda apparatus, 2013 01:43:43,600 --> 01:43:46,000 Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons I think it's gonna 2014 01:43:46,040 --> 01:43:49,120 Speaker 1: get dangerous. I think if Biden wins, it's dangerous. And 2015 01:43:49,160 --> 01:43:52,320 Speaker 1: even if he wins, I think it'll be like sixteen 2016 01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:54,719 Speaker 1: when hate crimes went through the roof. I think he'll 2017 01:43:54,720 --> 01:43:57,000 Speaker 1: exalt in it and I'll see you as a mandate 2018 01:43:57,120 --> 01:44:01,479 Speaker 1: for state sanctioned brutality, and he'll get up a notch um, 2019 01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, as soon as that happens, And you know 2020 01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:05,840 Speaker 1: I do fear for that. Let's, just for the sake 2021 01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:10,599 Speaker 1: of argument, say that Trump outright wins. Another four years 2022 01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:13,479 Speaker 1: go by, then what happens. I don't think that will 2023 01:44:13,520 --> 01:44:16,640 Speaker 1: be a democracy anymore. I'm not sure that, you know, 2024 01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:19,320 Speaker 1: like the conversation you and I are having now, I 2025 01:44:19,320 --> 01:44:21,479 Speaker 1: don't know if that will be possible. I feel like 2026 01:44:21,520 --> 01:44:24,360 Speaker 1: there will be an attempt to regulate speech and regulate 2027 01:44:24,400 --> 01:44:26,360 Speaker 1: the media. And it's not going to be some sort 2028 01:44:26,400 --> 01:44:29,960 Speaker 1: of rewriting the First Amendment, UM, making new laws. It 2029 01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:33,200 Speaker 1: will be through excessive LiTi gaiation. It will be through 2030 01:44:33,320 --> 01:44:37,160 Speaker 1: control of social media, of the architecture of the Internet. 2031 01:44:37,360 --> 01:44:41,200 Speaker 1: It will basically be through severing connections of people, um, 2032 01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, so that we're able to have straightforward conversations 2033 01:44:44,160 --> 01:44:47,400 Speaker 1: and share information. I worry about digital archives. I worry 2034 01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:50,439 Speaker 1: about history being rewritten. I mean, one reason I was 2035 01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:52,920 Speaker 1: willing to write a print book is I wanted it 2036 01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:55,920 Speaker 1: in print, like I wanted an analog version of my 2037 01:44:55,960 --> 01:44:59,080 Speaker 1: work preserved, because I don't know what the digital future 2038 01:44:59,080 --> 01:45:01,760 Speaker 1: will hold. And I you know, I'm I'm predicting a 2039 01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:04,400 Speaker 1: somewhat based on what Trump and his cohorts say, but 2040 01:45:04,439 --> 01:45:08,880 Speaker 1: also on the path that's been taken in Hungary, in Russia, UM, 2041 01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:12,080 Speaker 1: in Turkey and other countries that were uh, you know, 2042 01:45:12,360 --> 01:45:15,519 Speaker 1: democratic to some extent, just as as recently as five 2043 01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:19,880 Speaker 1: years ago and are now autocracies where journalists and intellectuals 2044 01:45:19,920 --> 01:45:23,200 Speaker 1: and opposition leaders are locked up. I see that as 2045 01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:26,400 Speaker 1: a possible path here. UM. And we are different, you know, 2046 01:45:26,439 --> 01:45:30,200 Speaker 1: We've had a long history of you know democratic traditions, 2047 01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:33,519 Speaker 1: but you know, autocracy moves fast. And the people who 2048 01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:36,080 Speaker 1: always say it can't happen here, um, they tend to 2049 01:45:36,080 --> 01:45:37,800 Speaker 1: be the ones that it happens to. And I don't 2050 01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:41,080 Speaker 1: think that we're adequately prepared. And again, you know, I 2051 01:45:41,120 --> 01:45:43,360 Speaker 1: hope I'm wrong. Um, And then of course I have 2052 01:45:43,439 --> 01:45:45,880 Speaker 1: to you know, throw the wrench into this, which is coronavirus. 2053 01:45:45,960 --> 01:45:48,680 Speaker 1: Like we're responding to a pandemic in the midst of 2054 01:45:48,680 --> 01:45:52,000 Speaker 1: this that makes everything very hard to predict, especially with 2055 01:45:52,040 --> 01:45:56,040 Speaker 1: the economic devastation. You know that it that it's created. Okay, 2056 01:45:56,160 --> 01:46:00,840 Speaker 1: how important is privacy an issue? And where should the 2057 01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:05,080 Speaker 1: line be? According to you? I I think it's very important. 2058 01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:07,200 Speaker 1: It's another reason I like Warren as I feel like 2059 01:46:07,240 --> 01:46:11,120 Speaker 1: she addressed this. I worry about privacy, uh, in conjunction 2060 01:46:11,160 --> 01:46:16,120 Speaker 1: with monopolies, with these extremely powerful social media companies that 2061 01:46:16,200 --> 01:46:19,240 Speaker 1: have access to our information and that don't share with 2062 01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:22,839 Speaker 1: us how that information is being used, how it's being gathered. 2063 01:46:23,200 --> 01:46:26,080 Speaker 1: I worry about, um, you know, how kids are growing 2064 01:46:26,160 --> 01:46:28,920 Speaker 1: up with this, Like that's been a challenge as a parent, Like, 2065 01:46:29,160 --> 01:46:31,400 Speaker 1: you know, what do I allow them to do? What 2066 01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:34,240 Speaker 1: kind of information is there? And they always think I'm nuts. 2067 01:46:34,240 --> 01:46:35,920 Speaker 1: You know, like when my daughter wanted to have a 2068 01:46:35,960 --> 01:46:38,200 Speaker 1: TikTok account and I said, you know, to her and 2069 01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:40,559 Speaker 1: to her friends who are over, no, you guys cannot 2070 01:46:40,600 --> 01:46:42,960 Speaker 1: go on TikTok because you know that your information is 2071 01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:44,920 Speaker 1: going to go to the Chinese government. And they're looking 2072 01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:46,880 Speaker 1: at me like I'm like Dale Gribble on King of 2073 01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,479 Speaker 1: the Hill, like you know, it's crazy conspiracy theory, mom, 2074 01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:51,960 Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, I'm serious, Like the Chinese on 2075 01:46:52,120 --> 01:46:54,760 Speaker 1: TikTok and whatever you put on there, I'm not saying 2076 01:46:54,760 --> 01:46:56,519 Speaker 1: they're going to use it, but you know, they will 2077 01:46:56,760 --> 01:47:00,320 Speaker 1: technically own your image, they will own your content. And 2078 01:47:00,360 --> 01:47:02,640 Speaker 1: that's true not just with China, but with UM, you know, 2079 01:47:02,720 --> 01:47:06,280 Speaker 1: obviously with American companies and with all these international uh 2080 01:47:06,439 --> 01:47:09,439 Speaker 1: you know, corporations as well. It's very risky. I don't 2081 01:47:09,439 --> 01:47:11,479 Speaker 1: know what they're going to do. But I look at 2082 01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:14,960 Speaker 1: that states like China, you know, which is a surveillance state, 2083 01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:18,000 Speaker 1: which is doing stuff with facial idea, UM you know, 2084 01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:20,960 Speaker 1: which is uh having things like a social credit system, 2085 01:47:21,240 --> 01:47:24,639 Speaker 1: and I wonder how inspired America is going to be 2086 01:47:24,720 --> 01:47:27,160 Speaker 1: by those ideas and whether they're going to try to 2087 01:47:27,200 --> 01:47:30,000 Speaker 1: implement something like that, and that will get used to 2088 01:47:30,040 --> 01:47:33,240 Speaker 1: being tracked. We won't have the expectation of privacy anymore. 2089 01:47:33,439 --> 01:47:36,000 Speaker 1: I've already watched that happen. I think over the last 2090 01:47:36,040 --> 01:47:39,519 Speaker 1: ten years, the expectation of privacy has really kind of 2091 01:47:39,640 --> 01:47:43,439 Speaker 1: slipped away. Um, people don't demand it. They're now used 2092 01:47:43,439 --> 01:47:45,840 Speaker 1: to having their photo all over the place because people 2093 01:47:45,840 --> 01:47:48,240 Speaker 1: have digital cameras and that makes it so much easier. 2094 01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:51,679 Speaker 1: And um, I mean it's a tough thing. I don't 2095 01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:54,280 Speaker 1: like the idea of people living so that they inhabit 2096 01:47:54,320 --> 01:47:57,880 Speaker 1: a persona. And I'm hoping that the younger generation, the 2097 01:47:57,920 --> 01:47:59,720 Speaker 1: one that's just sort of used to this, maybe they 2098 01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:02,200 Speaker 1: just don't give a ship. Maybe they won't be constantly 2099 01:48:02,200 --> 01:48:05,639 Speaker 1: grooming themselves to please others online. Maybe they'll just feel 2100 01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:08,160 Speaker 1: like they can be themselves and if someone doesn't like it, 2101 01:48:08,200 --> 01:48:10,639 Speaker 1: then too bad. Like I hope that that's the attitude 2102 01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:13,759 Speaker 1: they take, because I've watched my generation could toward itself 2103 01:48:13,920 --> 01:48:16,160 Speaker 1: into trying to fit some sort of image, you know, 2104 01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:19,280 Speaker 1: for social media, for the public eye. Like we've all 2105 01:48:19,360 --> 01:48:22,200 Speaker 1: been forced to be micro celebrities. And I don't think that, 2106 01:48:22,360 --> 01:48:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, anyone really wanted that, so if we look 2107 01:48:25,000 --> 01:48:27,920 Speaker 1: at the world at large, the thought was with the 2108 01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:31,280 Speaker 1: fall of the Wall, the breakup of the Soviet Union, 2109 01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:35,200 Speaker 1: that the world would turn to democracy. That's one of 2110 01:48:35,200 --> 01:48:40,720 Speaker 1: the rationalizations for the abortion in a ran Okay, if 2111 01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:46,400 Speaker 1: you predict the world at large, is democracy a dying dream? 2112 01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:49,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a dream it's worth fighting for. 2113 01:48:49,439 --> 01:48:51,400 Speaker 1: Like that's, you know, one of those things I don't 2114 01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:54,519 Speaker 1: give up on. I want a democratic system. It's deeply 2115 01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:56,439 Speaker 1: important to me, and so you know, I'll fight till 2116 01:48:56,479 --> 01:48:59,080 Speaker 1: the bitter end. And I think that many others will too. 2117 01:48:59,320 --> 01:49:02,000 Speaker 1: I do think that a lot of countries that people 2118 01:49:02,040 --> 01:49:06,320 Speaker 1: thought would remain democratic have turned quite quickly, um, you know, 2119 01:49:06,439 --> 01:49:10,040 Speaker 1: towards authoritarianism. And that includes the ones that you know, 2120 01:49:10,080 --> 01:49:13,639 Speaker 1: we're dominated by the Soviet Union, places like Poland, um 2121 01:49:13,760 --> 01:49:16,519 Speaker 1: or Hungry that you know, had a hard fought freedom 2122 01:49:16,560 --> 01:49:20,880 Speaker 1: in nine and onward and then now have reverted, you know, 2123 01:49:20,960 --> 01:49:24,920 Speaker 1: to this new kind of authoritarian rule. It's easier to 2124 01:49:24,960 --> 01:49:28,080 Speaker 1: happen than you think. I think that whatever will get 2125 01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:30,759 Speaker 1: it's not gonna look like a replica of the Soviet 2126 01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:33,120 Speaker 1: Union or of Nazi Germany. It's going to be a 2127 01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:34,560 Speaker 1: new thing. And I do think it is going to 2128 01:49:34,640 --> 01:49:38,920 Speaker 1: have this big digital surveillance component. But I think, um, 2129 01:49:38,960 --> 01:49:42,439 Speaker 1: you know, democracy literally translates to the power of the people, 2130 01:49:42,720 --> 01:49:45,280 Speaker 1: and I hope that everyone remembers that. I hope they 2131 01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:48,479 Speaker 1: remember that they, as Americans, are entitled to that. You know, 2132 01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:52,400 Speaker 1: it's not optional. Public servants exist to serve us, They 2133 01:49:52,439 --> 01:49:55,040 Speaker 1: exist to uphold the Constitution, and it should not be 2134 01:49:55,080 --> 01:49:57,439 Speaker 1: something that they can pick or choose to do. They 2135 01:49:57,479 --> 01:49:59,960 Speaker 1: have to do it. Um. And I think that expectation 2136 01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:02,760 Speaker 1: stations have been lowered in part because Congress has so 2137 01:50:02,840 --> 01:50:06,160 Speaker 1: completely failed us. But those expectations, uh, you know, those 2138 01:50:06,200 --> 01:50:10,479 Speaker 1: demands need to be constant, even if they're not being met. Um. 2139 01:50:10,560 --> 01:50:12,280 Speaker 1: You know, we need to expect more of them, and 2140 01:50:12,320 --> 01:50:15,200 Speaker 1: we need to be prepared for a long fight ourselves. 2141 01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:17,680 Speaker 1: You've also said, and I may be getting it a 2142 01:50:17,680 --> 01:50:20,679 Speaker 1: little bit wrong, that you don't have hope. And it's 2143 01:50:20,720 --> 01:50:23,920 Speaker 1: not about hope. No, I mean, I don't have hope. 2144 01:50:24,240 --> 01:50:26,720 Speaker 1: I don't have hopelessness. It's just not the way that 2145 01:50:27,120 --> 01:50:28,960 Speaker 1: I look at the world. I mean, I guess I 2146 01:50:28,960 --> 01:50:31,920 Speaker 1: think of hope is like sitting around and waiting for 2147 01:50:31,960 --> 01:50:34,559 Speaker 1: something to change, or just sort of like wishing. I mean, 2148 01:50:34,560 --> 01:50:37,639 Speaker 1: maybe I have faith, you know, I have conviction, you know, obviously, 2149 01:50:37,640 --> 01:50:40,519 Speaker 1: I know what kind of governmental system I support, and 2150 01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:42,360 Speaker 1: I know what my values are, and I know what 2151 01:50:42,400 --> 01:50:44,519 Speaker 1: my morals are, and I know how I feel when 2152 01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:47,680 Speaker 1: I see people flavorrantly violating them. Um, you know, and 2153 01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:51,240 Speaker 1: I'll fight, but uh, I just I don't know. It's 2154 01:50:51,240 --> 01:50:52,920 Speaker 1: hard for me when people are like, what's going to 2155 01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:56,040 Speaker 1: happen next? Or do you feel you know, optimistic or pessimistic. 2156 01:50:56,240 --> 01:50:57,920 Speaker 1: That's not the way I view it. I feel like 2157 01:50:58,000 --> 01:51:01,040 Speaker 1: when everything's collapsing, and I like everything's kind of been 2158 01:51:01,040 --> 01:51:04,400 Speaker 1: collapsing my whole adult life, then you cling to your principles, 2159 01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:06,599 Speaker 1: you know, you cling to your conscience because you can 2160 01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:09,920 Speaker 1: control that. Like I can't control, you know, who's gonna 2161 01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:13,400 Speaker 1: win in November, at least unilaterally. And I can't control 2162 01:51:13,439 --> 01:51:15,360 Speaker 1: what's going to happen to the economy. But I can 2163 01:51:15,360 --> 01:51:18,240 Speaker 1: control how I treat other people. And I can control, 2164 01:51:18,400 --> 01:51:21,479 Speaker 1: you know, what my participation in this kind of you 2165 01:51:21,520 --> 01:51:23,639 Speaker 1: know world is going to be, and how I try 2166 01:51:23,640 --> 01:51:28,200 Speaker 1: to leverage you know, what little power advantages I've accumulated, 2167 01:51:28,240 --> 01:51:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, That's what I try to do with my 2168 01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:32,639 Speaker 1: writing and with my podcast. That's my choice. And so 2169 01:51:32,960 --> 01:51:35,360 Speaker 1: I would encourage people to think of it that way 2170 01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:38,519 Speaker 1: because then you you have a little more control over 2171 01:51:38,560 --> 01:51:41,519 Speaker 1: the situation. You know, you can't control the situation, but 2172 01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:43,880 Speaker 1: you can control your your part in it. And you're 2173 01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:46,800 Speaker 1: not just sitting around, you know, hoping that some sort 2174 01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:50,360 Speaker 1: of savior will intervene. Sir, your revelation and a beacon. 2175 01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:52,800 Speaker 1: You'd be surprised. The nature of being a writer is 2176 01:51:52,880 --> 01:51:56,080 Speaker 1: you don't really know what people think about your writing. 2177 01:51:56,439 --> 01:51:59,439 Speaker 1: And I wrote about you, and I was stunned the 2178 01:51:59,479 --> 01:52:01,960 Speaker 1: amount of feedback I got. People who are not only 2179 01:52:02,040 --> 01:52:05,040 Speaker 1: aware of you, but passionately aware of you. I mean, 2180 01:52:05,439 --> 01:52:09,120 Speaker 1: you click boxes that people didn't even think existed, one 2181 01:52:09,240 --> 01:52:14,120 Speaker 1: being in the Midwest, being of this demo, having a 2182 01:52:14,240 --> 01:52:19,160 Speaker 1: pH d in an era where education and intelligence are 2183 01:52:19,240 --> 01:52:21,800 Speaker 1: far from primary. So I thank you so much for 2184 01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:24,559 Speaker 1: taking the time to speak to my audience. Well, thank 2185 01:52:24,560 --> 01:52:26,439 Speaker 1: you so much for having me on. It's the pleasure 2186 01:52:26,439 --> 01:52:29,559 Speaker 1: talking with you. Until next time. This is Bob left 2187 01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:29,880 Speaker 1: Sets