WEBVTT - Burt Bacharach and Daniel Tashian: Broken Record Classic 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.076 Pushkin. Hey everyone, we heard the news last week that 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:26.596 Burt Backrack died at the age of ninety four. He 0:00:26.916 --> 0:00:31.156 was an absolute titan of twentieth century music. Co wrote 0:00:31.196 --> 0:00:33.916 some of the greatest pop songs of all time with 0:00:33.956 --> 0:00:37.876 his partner how David, songs for people like Dione Warwick 0:00:37.956 --> 0:00:42.076 and Dusty Springfield, songs that got interpreted by greats like 0:00:42.276 --> 0:00:46.116 Aretha Franklin and ROBERTA. Flack and Tom Jones. Just an 0:00:46.116 --> 0:00:48.476 absolute monster and one of the best to ever do it, 0:00:48.836 --> 0:00:50.876 and he was working right up until the very end. 0:00:51.356 --> 0:00:55.476 He released an EP called Blue Umbrella with producer Daniel Tashian, 0:00:56.076 --> 0:00:58.236 and we had them both on to speak to Bruce 0:00:58.276 --> 0:01:01.796 Headlum back in twenty twenty. Over the weekend, I spoke 0:01:01.876 --> 0:01:05.116 to Daniel about working with Bert and also asked him 0:01:05.156 --> 0:01:08.196 to put Bert's career into the context of popular music 0:01:08.556 --> 0:01:11.956 in the century. So let's listen to my quick conversation 0:01:12.116 --> 0:01:15.796 with Daniel Tashian, and then we'll replay our twenty twenty 0:01:15.836 --> 0:01:22.076 interview with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian speaking to Bruce Headlam. 0:01:23.236 --> 0:01:26.396 This is broken record line of notes to the digital age. 0:01:26.676 --> 0:01:31.676 I'm justin Mitchman. Nice to see you. Yeah, you as well. Yeah, man, 0:01:31.716 --> 0:01:34.396 I'm so glad we have that conversation with you. And 0:01:34.436 --> 0:01:38.516 Bert documented such a beautiful group of songs you guys 0:01:38.516 --> 0:01:42.316 put together. And yeah, when did his work enter your consciousness? Yeah, 0:01:42.316 --> 0:01:44.436 I think I was about the height wherever the height 0:01:44.476 --> 0:01:46.756 it is when the age when your nose is like 0:01:46.836 --> 0:01:50.396 this with the piano, you know, your nose is like 0:01:50.516 --> 0:01:52.756 touching middle C. So I think I was like three 0:01:52.836 --> 0:01:55.316 or four and I heard raindrops keep falling on my 0:01:55.316 --> 0:01:57.836 head because I guess Bush Cassidy maybe had come out 0:01:57.876 --> 0:01:59.796 a few years before that, and it was just kind 0:01:59.796 --> 0:02:02.436 of on the radio and it just sounded like it 0:02:02.476 --> 0:02:04.036 was talking to me, you know. It was just one 0:02:04.076 --> 0:02:07.836 of those melodies and songs that just irresistible. That's a 0:02:07.876 --> 0:02:10.836 great time to discover back rackets. You're just sort of 0:02:11.516 --> 0:02:13.476 eye and the piano for the first time. Yeah, And 0:02:13.476 --> 0:02:15.356 I just tried to peck it out on the keyboard 0:02:15.396 --> 0:02:19.436 when my grandmother had a piano along with Mancini, Pink 0:02:19.436 --> 0:02:22.956 panther Don, you know, in California as a kid, also 0:02:22.956 --> 0:02:25.716 obsessed with Christopher Cross with the Arthur's theme, I thought 0:02:25.756 --> 0:02:28.676 that it was like this, you know, window into the 0:02:28.756 --> 0:02:32.076 world of adult emotions and adult feelings. It was like 0:02:32.076 --> 0:02:34.396 when you get caught between the moon and New York City. 0:02:34.396 --> 0:02:36.436 I was like, is that going to happen to me? 0:02:36.676 --> 0:02:38.556 You know? It was like I was just kind of 0:02:38.556 --> 0:02:40.916 fascinated with relationships when I was a kid. I was 0:02:40.916 --> 0:02:43.996 just really thinking about the adult world a lot and 0:02:44.036 --> 0:02:46.476 how it worked and would I be ready for it? 0:02:46.556 --> 0:02:49.276 And Bert was kind of a window. Bert's music was 0:02:49.356 --> 0:02:51.156 kind of a window into that world in a way 0:02:51.156 --> 0:02:55.236 that didn't make it seem impossible. It's funny. I had 0:02:55.236 --> 0:02:57.796 never thought about Bert's music that way, but he could 0:02:57.796 --> 0:03:00.836 write something sort of as simple or something as appealing 0:03:00.876 --> 0:03:02.996 to a kid as rain drops falling on my head, 0:03:03.036 --> 0:03:05.476 and something as like a mature as like heart light, 0:03:05.716 --> 0:03:08.836 and things that just seemed very complex when you're a 0:03:08.876 --> 0:03:12.636 young kid or even a young adult, you know. And 0:03:12.676 --> 0:03:15.196 then you know, when I got a bit older, I 0:03:15.316 --> 0:03:19.556 got a Dion Warick CD that had a lot of 0:03:19.796 --> 0:03:22.796 amazing song and I was like, holy, this stuff is, like, 0:03:22.876 --> 0:03:26.676 I mean, it's just so deep and and and beautiful. 0:03:26.716 --> 0:03:29.596 It's like when the B section of Walk on By, 0:03:29.916 --> 0:03:32.436 when it transitions to that other section in the horns 0:03:32.476 --> 0:03:35.436 start to rise and the strings start to rise. Du 0:03:37.916 --> 0:03:41.356 it's just celestial and it just transports you. And it's 0:03:41.396 --> 0:03:43.556 just like it really speaks to me. And I don't 0:03:43.556 --> 0:03:45.716 know if you feel this way, but like of the 0:03:45.876 --> 0:03:50.636 potential of humankind to transcend this sort of like kind 0:03:50.676 --> 0:03:53.156 of mediocre existence that we have in a way that 0:03:53.476 --> 0:03:56.396 is eternal, you know, and kind of transcend. And I 0:03:56.436 --> 0:03:58.316 was just listening to Walk on By this morning, and 0:03:58.996 --> 0:04:00.956 I mean, that has to just be one of the 0:04:00.996 --> 0:04:04.716 greatest chord changes, you know. Yeah, it's because it's no 0:04:04.716 --> 0:04:06.996 matter the version you listen to, to be honest, it's 0:04:07.356 --> 0:04:11.116 almost always striking. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's kind of a 0:04:11.156 --> 0:04:13.636 thrill ride to that music. That was one of the 0:04:13.636 --> 0:04:16.356 things I loved about working with Bert was I felt 0:04:16.356 --> 0:04:20.756 like he was making like this wonderful roller coaster slash 0:04:20.756 --> 0:04:23.156 obstacle course for the voice, you know, and they were 0:04:23.316 --> 0:04:26.316 it was just so fun to surf on those melodies, 0:04:26.356 --> 0:04:28.316 you know. That was something that he talked about a lot, 0:04:28.436 --> 0:04:31.876 was the through line of the melody through the whole 0:04:31.916 --> 0:04:33.756 song and just kind of if you look at it, 0:04:33.796 --> 0:04:38.116 is it interesting. Were you nervous collaborating with him at first? 0:04:38.356 --> 0:04:41.116 I was definitely nervous, and you know, he kind of 0:04:41.196 --> 0:04:43.276 wasn't into that, you know, And then I thought, well, 0:04:43.636 --> 0:04:46.036 this is my chance to kind of work with a hero. 0:04:46.156 --> 0:04:48.396 I'm just going to be myself and for better or 0:04:48.396 --> 0:04:50.316 for worse. But you know, it helps when you just 0:04:50.396 --> 0:04:52.716 really love what they do. And of course I wanted 0:04:52.716 --> 0:04:54.356 to write a song with him, but I wasn't really 0:04:54.356 --> 0:04:57.556 expecting that, and so I just thought, well, might as 0:04:57.556 --> 0:04:59.676 well just go for it. And I remember telling his 0:04:59.836 --> 0:05:02.036 manager Sue, I said, you know, I just wish these 0:05:02.116 --> 0:05:04.396 lyrics were better that I was writing, and she said, 0:05:04.516 --> 0:05:07.276 you know something very comforting, which was she said everybody 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:09.796 feels that way. And after she said that, I was like, oh, 0:05:09.836 --> 0:05:12.436 so I'm not the only person that thinks, like, this 0:05:12.476 --> 0:05:14.436 isn't the greatest lyric I've ever done, but it's the 0:05:14.436 --> 0:05:17.996 one I got. And he was very encouraging. Later on, 0:05:18.036 --> 0:05:20.316 when I got more comfortable and he had kind of 0:05:20.316 --> 0:05:22.796 complimented me, then I thought, Okay, I'm gonna try to 0:05:22.836 --> 0:05:27.796 do something really really special, you know. And actually we've 0:05:27.796 --> 0:05:30.756 written two new songs that we were working on just 0:05:30.796 --> 0:05:34.036 a couple weeks before he passed away, and he felt 0:05:34.036 --> 0:05:35.876 that they were two of the best lyrics that I 0:05:35.916 --> 0:05:38.796 had sent him, So I feel sort of honor bound 0:05:38.836 --> 0:05:43.316 to see those through and I will, Wow, how far 0:05:43.356 --> 0:05:46.076 along did you guys get on those? His work is done, 0:05:46.116 --> 0:05:48.036 the music is done. It's just up to me to 0:05:48.436 --> 0:05:52.396 complete the last verse. So it'll be done soon. Yeah, 0:05:52.476 --> 0:05:55.916 they're they're thrilling. You know, this one called Starlight Motel 0:05:55.956 --> 0:05:58.836 and like he comes in, it's like an E nine 0:05:58.916 --> 0:06:01.636 chord that just doesn't have any thirds in it, and 0:06:01.796 --> 0:06:05.076 it just it just sounds like space. Man, it just 0:06:05.116 --> 0:06:07.556 sounds like you're just looking at a sky full of stars. 0:06:07.636 --> 0:06:10.316 You know, It's just it's amazing. I love that he 0:06:10.396 --> 0:06:13.796 was creating up until, you know, up until he couldn't anymore, 0:06:13.996 --> 0:06:17.116 you know, literally couldn't something comforting. And that to me, 0:06:17.276 --> 0:06:20.516 you know, that he knew his purpose and was just 0:06:20.596 --> 0:06:23.076 able to sort of always be in that purpose. Isn't 0:06:23.156 --> 0:06:26.276 his entire existence? Yeah, I think that was kind of 0:06:26.276 --> 0:06:28.196 one of the things that you know, he really felt 0:06:28.196 --> 0:06:30.676 that music was kind of a saving grace during the 0:06:30.676 --> 0:06:34.116 pandemic when everyone was so cooped up and kind of isolated, 0:06:34.196 --> 0:06:37.836 and I think that was like a real moodlifter for 0:06:37.916 --> 0:06:40.916 both of us during that time, and I remember one 0:06:40.956 --> 0:06:43.996 time I said, well, we got you know, we went 0:06:44.036 --> 0:06:46.676 all the way to the to the Grammys, we got nominated. 0:06:46.796 --> 0:06:48.476 We can we can probably put our feet up for 0:06:48.476 --> 0:06:51.436 a second. He said, nope, not putting my feet up, 0:06:51.476 --> 0:06:53.116 because the day you put your feet up is the 0:06:53.196 --> 0:06:55.956 day that you die. Wow. He just really liked to 0:06:55.996 --> 0:06:59.236 keep moving, you know, keep working, And um, I think 0:06:59.276 --> 0:07:01.476 I took that to heart. You know, I think I'd 0:07:01.556 --> 0:07:03.796 like to be that way. I mean, I'm I'm interested 0:07:03.836 --> 0:07:06.596 in music and words, and I can't I can't see 0:07:06.836 --> 0:07:10.116 a time when I wouldn't be interested, you know. Yeah, 0:07:10.276 --> 0:07:12.476 do you think you fully understand everything you might have 0:07:12.556 --> 0:07:17.596 learned from working with Nope, I don't think so. I think, 0:07:17.716 --> 0:07:19.956 you know, stuff has to just kind of filter in. 0:07:20.036 --> 0:07:21.556 And I have a lot of memories. I mean, we 0:07:21.596 --> 0:07:23.836 worked together for five years. We talked on the phone, 0:07:23.956 --> 0:07:26.756 you know, every week at least, and became really close. 0:07:26.796 --> 0:07:29.956 And I don't know, I still can't sort of believe 0:07:29.996 --> 0:07:33.596 that he's he's gone, and I miss him. I missed 0:07:33.636 --> 0:07:35.916 just talking to him. And he didn't really love to 0:07:35.916 --> 0:07:38.236 talk about stories, but he did, you know, of the 0:07:38.236 --> 0:07:40.916 old days. But he did give me a few stories. 0:07:40.916 --> 0:07:43.436 But mainly. I think the thing that I loved the 0:07:43.476 --> 0:07:45.436 most was just sitting at the piano with him and 0:07:45.916 --> 0:07:49.996 watching him process and think about things and kind of 0:07:51.116 --> 0:07:53.636 kind of tap on it on the piano. You know. 0:07:53.676 --> 0:07:57.196 He would just sort of dunk dunked different notes and 0:07:57.236 --> 0:08:00.196 then scribble a little bit. And when you hang around 0:08:00.196 --> 0:08:03.356 with somebody like that, it's like their their mannerisms and 0:08:03.436 --> 0:08:06.556 their little things that they light up about that you 0:08:06.676 --> 0:08:08.676 kind of notice and you sort of you don't really 0:08:08.716 --> 0:08:10.756 know what what it means as much as you just 0:08:10.796 --> 0:08:14.796 sort of how it feels. And I think I'll be 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:18.156 unpacking being with Bert for a long time. One thing 0:08:18.196 --> 0:08:20.276 I can say, though, I can nail down a couple 0:08:20.276 --> 0:08:22.596 of things that I feel like I really he would 0:08:22.596 --> 0:08:24.076 want me to do. He would want me to have 0:08:24.116 --> 0:08:27.836 an interesting melody. He would want me to do something 0:08:27.876 --> 0:08:30.636 that sounds like something that's already out there. He would 0:08:30.636 --> 0:08:34.636 want me to keep pushing and not settle for a 0:08:34.716 --> 0:08:36.916 kind of a lame lyric or a lyric that doesn't 0:08:36.956 --> 0:08:39.716 have any urgency behind it or any reason to kind 0:08:39.716 --> 0:08:42.436 of be a song. We were working on this one song, 0:08:42.476 --> 0:08:44.276 and the lyrics were sort of pretty and kind of 0:08:44.316 --> 0:08:46.676 interesting and then halfway through working on it, he was like, 0:08:47.076 --> 0:08:49.076 I just can't figure out why we need to do 0:08:49.116 --> 0:08:53.596 this song, wow, you know, And I was like, yeah, 0:08:53.596 --> 0:08:55.716 I don't really know why either, you know, And and 0:08:56.116 --> 0:08:58.276 we just sort of, you know, once he tosses it, 0:08:58.276 --> 0:09:01.476 it's gone. It's like in the fire. I wonder how 0:09:01.476 --> 0:09:04.036 many great songs he scraps just because they weren't to 0:09:04.156 --> 0:09:08.796 his standard. You know. It probably wasn't him that wasn't 0:09:08.796 --> 0:09:11.636 a snuff either. It was probably the lyricist, you know 0:09:11.676 --> 0:09:14.756 what I mean, Like, he probably always did his best, 0:09:14.796 --> 0:09:18.036 and if the lyric was just kind of okay, he 0:09:18.156 --> 0:09:20.836 just would sort of lose momentum, you know. And I 0:09:20.916 --> 0:09:25.876 get that. You want something a sense of urgency about 0:09:25.916 --> 0:09:29.356 a song, you know what the world needs now, you know, 0:09:29.396 --> 0:09:31.516 it's got a lot of urgency to it. You know, 0:09:33.076 --> 0:09:36.036 a reason for a song being something that comes out 0:09:36.076 --> 0:09:38.956 and meets the ears of the listeners is like something 0:09:38.996 --> 0:09:41.636 that that's a deep concept. You know. You can take 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:44.396 that a lot of different ways. That's great. Well, I'm 0:09:44.396 --> 0:09:47.796 glad there's two more to come. It's a real gift 0:09:47.796 --> 0:09:49.876 for the rest of us. He was an angel and 0:09:49.996 --> 0:09:53.596 so kind to me and didn't ever sort of make 0:09:53.676 --> 0:09:56.356 me feel bad about not being a great music reader 0:09:56.556 --> 0:09:59.076 or a site reader or anything like that. Was patient 0:09:59.156 --> 0:10:01.796 with me, and he knew that I, you know, had 0:10:02.076 --> 0:10:05.316 a certain amount of musicality so that we could communicate. 0:10:05.396 --> 0:10:07.396 And you know, I remember being at his house and 0:10:07.436 --> 0:10:09.236 I wanted to play a little bit of pianos so 0:10:09.276 --> 0:10:11.876 that he knew that I knew what he was he 0:10:11.956 --> 0:10:14.036 was doing. And he would say, I didn't know that 0:10:14.076 --> 0:10:17.556 you played piano. And then I asked him who his 0:10:17.716 --> 0:10:20.476 heroes were, who he looked up to, you know, because 0:10:20.516 --> 0:10:22.756 I wanted to know, like, who did he because he 0:10:22.836 --> 0:10:24.556 was who I looked up to, you know, and I 0:10:24.636 --> 0:10:27.236 wanted to know who he looked up to. And he 0:10:27.356 --> 0:10:32.676 just he said, yeah, Carol King Revel, Yeah that's about 0:10:32.716 --> 0:10:36.396 it sounds about right, Yeah, Revel. Did Burt listen to 0:10:36.476 --> 0:10:38.996 music much? And yeah, he loved this guy. He said, 0:10:39.036 --> 0:10:41.476 go one time he called me said, go look up 0:10:42.156 --> 0:10:46.796 Von Lenz. You want to hear a fantastic song, Go 0:10:46.916 --> 0:10:51.116 look up von Lenz. And uh. He this was a 0:10:51.156 --> 0:10:55.436 Brazilian composer and singer that he really really admired. And 0:10:55.556 --> 0:10:57.316 I went and listened to the guys music. It's sure enough. 0:10:57.356 --> 0:11:01.036 It's fantastic Evon Lenz l I N d S. I think, 0:11:01.316 --> 0:11:03.756 and that's something he kind of went back to just 0:11:03.876 --> 0:11:07.956 over the years. Yeah, he's like a Brazilian pop star. Wow. 0:11:08.556 --> 0:11:12.356 I think he's early you know, contemporary. Oh it's a contemporary, yeah, 0:11:12.396 --> 0:11:15.396 I think so. So he was discovering he was just 0:11:15.396 --> 0:11:18.716 still discovering new music too. Yeah, I think so. I 0:11:18.716 --> 0:11:20.796 mean I think he you know, he did he did 0:11:20.836 --> 0:11:23.516 that album with Doctor Dre a few years ago, about 0:11:23.516 --> 0:11:27.196 ten years ago. And I think he always wanted to 0:11:27.196 --> 0:11:31.436 do something new. He didn't have any set sort of 0:11:31.596 --> 0:11:33.836 way to do things or a way that he has 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:36.156 to do things. I remember one time I said, do 0:11:36.196 --> 0:11:38.236 you want to start with a melody that I've got? 0:11:38.276 --> 0:11:40.276 Which can you believe that I would say something like that, 0:11:40.316 --> 0:11:43.196 like what was wrong with me? But I said that 0:11:43.236 --> 0:11:45.956 and he was like, yeah, sure, why not? And I 0:11:46.036 --> 0:11:48.556 played him a little of this melody that I had, 0:11:48.596 --> 0:11:51.076 and he said, well, let me mess with a little 0:11:51.076 --> 0:11:53.356 bit because it already sounds like something i've heard before, 0:11:53.716 --> 0:11:57.036 you know. And I was like, okay, yeah, you're right, 0:11:59.316 --> 0:12:02.916 and he fixed it to hear Bert tinkering around with 0:12:03.116 --> 0:12:05.956 a melody you wrote I'll tell you the first time 0:12:06.076 --> 0:12:09.716 I heard him play some music underneath some lyrics I 0:12:09.756 --> 0:12:12.556 had sent him, it just my eyes welled up with tears. 0:12:12.876 --> 0:12:15.076 I was just so moved. It was just so beautiful, 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:18.036 and I felt like that that three year old kid 0:12:18.076 --> 0:12:20.236 that had his nose up to the piano was like 0:12:20.556 --> 0:12:23.396 having this full circle moment of like I was connecting 0:12:23.436 --> 0:12:26.556 with the source of the thing that was so important 0:12:26.556 --> 0:12:29.996 to me as a child and throughout my life. It's 0:12:29.996 --> 0:12:33.676 like he's got music for every age. It's it's I 0:12:33.676 --> 0:12:37.516 don't know, I just I was just overwhelmed with gratitude 0:12:37.556 --> 0:12:40.396 and with emotion. And you know, when he passed away, 0:12:40.436 --> 0:12:43.516 I was almost like it was almost just like a 0:12:43.636 --> 0:12:49.596 transference of transmogrification of energy. And it wasn't like I 0:12:49.636 --> 0:12:52.476 was just sitting there crying. I mean, I was just 0:12:52.556 --> 0:12:56.436 kind of like it was just a a very spiritual 0:12:56.516 --> 0:13:01.516 moment and a kind of a graduation. Man. Well, I'm 0:13:01.516 --> 0:13:04.556 so happy you guys did that music together and that 0:13:04.716 --> 0:13:06.316 you know, we were able to have you guys both 0:13:06.356 --> 0:13:09.396 on at the start of the pandemic, and uh, it's 0:13:09.396 --> 0:13:11.676 great that you guys have some some other music that 0:13:11.756 --> 0:13:13.996 you know, we can still year coming out the greatest. 0:13:14.036 --> 0:13:18.116 I can't believe it. Sometimes the greatest composer of my lifetime, 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:21.636 without a doubt, and I got to hang out with him. 0:13:21.676 --> 0:13:25.396 I mean, what a dream come true. That was Daniel 0:13:25.396 --> 0:13:28.996 Tashian reflecting on his friendship and the legacy of Burt 0:13:28.996 --> 0:13:32.436 Backrack and music. Now let's go to our twenty twenty 0:13:32.436 --> 0:13:37.796 conversation between Bruce Headlum, Burt Backrack, and Daniel Tashian. Bert, 0:13:37.796 --> 0:13:40.876 you once said that you didn't know that a song 0:13:40.956 --> 0:13:43.836 was going to work until you were in the recording studio, 0:13:43.916 --> 0:13:46.916 until you had the musicians there. What's it like sending 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:48.516 something I'm going, well, I don't know what it's going 0:13:48.556 --> 0:13:52.196 to sound like because I can't be there always for 0:13:52.276 --> 0:13:56.036 me in the past when they knew people would be 0:13:56.076 --> 0:13:59.556 there or in the in the same studio, I lived 0:13:59.596 --> 0:14:03.036 by the credo of it was the moment of truth. 0:14:03.156 --> 0:14:06.236 You lived or died with that song in the studio. 0:14:06.676 --> 0:14:10.196 It felt good going in, but things can go wrong 0:14:10.996 --> 0:14:13.996 in the concept. I had this habit. I don't know 0:14:13.996 --> 0:14:16.276 whether I ever told you, Daniel, when I got in 0:14:16.316 --> 0:14:21.876 trouble on a date, string players out there and something 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:25.356 was amiss in the concept. The way the arrangement was 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:28.716 going down, I'd give a break to the band ten minutes. 0:14:29.396 --> 0:14:34.196 I'd go into the bathroom, to the men's room, into 0:14:34.236 --> 0:14:37.556 a stall, just close the lid, sit on the stall 0:14:38.436 --> 0:14:43.156 and try to hear this whole scope of where this 0:14:43.436 --> 0:14:47.156 record was going, where this song was going, and to 0:14:47.236 --> 0:14:50.956 make sure there were no pimples. If the pimples were there, 0:14:51.076 --> 0:14:54.036 the pimples drove me into the bathroom. And then you 0:14:54.116 --> 0:14:57.716 try to try to work it through and you don't 0:14:57.716 --> 0:15:00.276 have anybody leaning on you. You're not at the piano 0:15:00.356 --> 0:15:04.156 trying to figure it out in a room full of musicians. 0:15:04.796 --> 0:15:07.796 So for me, it's a moment truth. That's where you 0:15:07.836 --> 0:15:11.276 know you got something. So I want to go back 0:15:11.316 --> 0:15:16.596 to how this collaboration started. It started with a meeting 0:15:16.756 --> 0:15:19.036 at your house, Burton. I'd like to hear both of 0:15:19.076 --> 0:15:22.996 you just tell me a bit about how that came about. Okay, 0:15:23.076 --> 0:15:27.636 Daniels on a glow, Daniel's on a winning streak. Daniel 0:15:27.716 --> 0:15:30.236 was a very very happy guy and he had just 0:15:30.356 --> 0:15:34.916 won the Grammy for produce Or of the Year and 0:15:35.516 --> 0:15:40.396 Casey's record, which is a brilliant record, and you pick 0:15:40.436 --> 0:15:43.556 it up from there. Daniel well there's a lot of 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:46.596 mystery for me around Bert before I met him. And 0:15:46.756 --> 0:15:48.396 you know, they say you shouldn't meet some of your 0:15:48.396 --> 0:15:52.076 heroes because sometimes you know, you can maybe not have 0:15:52.116 --> 0:15:54.236 the kind of interaction that you hope for. But in 0:15:54.556 --> 0:15:57.236 the case of me and Bert, and I do consider 0:15:57.236 --> 0:16:00.076 you to be one of my great heroes. Bert, thank you. 0:16:00.596 --> 0:16:03.716 In that situation. I found you to be very warm 0:16:03.796 --> 0:16:07.116 and welcoming. You welcome me into your music room, sort 0:16:07.156 --> 0:16:09.076 of a sunken kind of living room you kind of 0:16:09.196 --> 0:16:11.796 come down into and there's there's a piano and up 0:16:11.836 --> 0:16:14.036 on the wall, you know, are the are these Oscars 0:16:14.076 --> 0:16:17.796 and Grammys and and Gershwin Award and uh, it's very 0:16:18.396 --> 0:16:21.076 very heavy stuff for a guy like me. And um, 0:16:21.516 --> 0:16:23.756 but you had worked on some music for a little 0:16:23.836 --> 0:16:26.516 lyric Shred that I had sent you, and UM, I 0:16:26.516 --> 0:16:28.476 couldn't help it. Man, the tears came to my eyes. 0:16:28.476 --> 0:16:30.916 It was so beautiful. I loved. I loved the way 0:16:30.956 --> 0:16:33.996 that you, Um made the words that I had written 0:16:34.196 --> 0:16:36.636 kind of come to life in this in this way 0:16:36.636 --> 0:16:38.996 that I never I never could have thought of on 0:16:39.036 --> 0:16:41.516 my own. And and it was just wonderful to be 0:16:41.636 --> 0:16:44.916 there in that room with you, and I was ensconced 0:16:44.956 --> 0:16:47.836 in a very comfortable armchair with a nice cup of 0:16:47.876 --> 0:16:50.516 tea and you were playing to me right right next 0:16:50.556 --> 0:16:54.116 to me, um on the beginning of Blue Umbrella. And 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:57.916 it's a memory that I'll cherish all my life. And 0:16:58.276 --> 0:17:01.636 I could say this the thing about Daniel, I don't 0:17:01.676 --> 0:17:05.796 think you know, I've had different collaborations with Elsa for 0:17:06.236 --> 0:17:11.436 with how they even ex Carol bayer Seger. There is 0:17:11.516 --> 0:17:16.596 something about this relationship as it's grown and expanded. We 0:17:16.996 --> 0:17:22.556 genuinely really like each other. And the more time that 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:28.276 we work, connect talk, there's no fear, you know, there's 0:17:28.276 --> 0:17:30.996 no you know, you always have a will. Will this 0:17:31.836 --> 0:17:38.156 future collaborator be something that will like my music? Will 0:17:38.156 --> 0:17:42.716 it work? See Daniel's in this, He's got all bases 0:17:42.756 --> 0:17:48.196 covered because he's I love the way he sings, which 0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:52.316 I didn't know until I heard it. I love his musicianship, 0:17:53.036 --> 0:17:57.436 I love his words. And the thing that I find 0:17:57.636 --> 0:18:00.636 very interesting because I think the work has been really 0:18:00.636 --> 0:18:04.156 productive and really good and proud of what we've done. Daniel, 0:18:06.836 --> 0:18:11.396 and the friendship has grown. So we'll talk at different times. Well, 0:18:12.036 --> 0:18:16.076 we'll keep on writing, you know, Um, We've got a 0:18:16.076 --> 0:18:24.196 couple of more songs in the pipeline now and yeah, 0:18:24.236 --> 0:18:28.276 and the same musicians, but they'll instead of all being 0:18:28.276 --> 0:18:31.956 in the studio, everybody will be in their own house 0:18:32.076 --> 0:18:38.556 like in Nashville. Yeah, and being able to hear each 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:44.196 other as parts are added. It's a it's not the 0:18:44.276 --> 0:18:48.876 perfect solution, but the sound is good. That was one 0:18:48.916 --> 0:18:52.836 of my concerns, how it would sound stuff coming instead 0:18:52.836 --> 0:18:57.396 of off the board in a studio with all the gear. 0:18:59.236 --> 0:19:04.196 But it sounds really good. So that took any fears, 0:19:04.396 --> 0:19:09.156 concerns of new stuff that we would write. But I 0:19:10.036 --> 0:19:12.676 love it that we've we've done this thing with Blue 0:19:12.756 --> 0:19:18.636 Umbrella and and me too. I'm proud of the songs 0:19:18.676 --> 0:19:25.556 and whatever happens with it, if pride will always be there. Yeah, 0:19:25.756 --> 0:19:27.276 I want to go back to what you said about 0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:30.836 Daniel as a singer. I mean he's mainly known as 0:19:30.836 --> 0:19:34.756 a producer. You know, not everybody can sing a birt 0:19:34.876 --> 0:19:40.596 backrack melody. You've got a very particular flavor of melody. 0:19:41.516 --> 0:19:45.596 You play a lot with the rhythm or the beat 0:19:45.676 --> 0:19:49.796 I guess, the time signature. And obviously you've had some 0:19:50.236 --> 0:19:54.236 incredible collaborators, who do you know, starting with Deon Warwick 0:19:54.236 --> 0:19:58.476 and many others. What does a good Burt backrack singer 0:19:58.596 --> 0:20:02.836 have to have to sing your songs? Well, you don't 0:20:02.876 --> 0:20:05.956 know what you're going to get with Daniel, like because 0:20:06.356 --> 0:20:09.516 we'd worked in a room until we got in this studio, 0:20:10.356 --> 0:20:12.196 but I never had any doubt that he's going to 0:20:12.276 --> 0:20:14.796 sing well. But when I heard him in the studio, 0:20:15.356 --> 0:20:18.516 he does his homework. He comes in prepared. I'm a 0:20:18.516 --> 0:20:21.956 big one in preparation. And then you know it's like 0:20:22.396 --> 0:20:27.076 what works. It's all interchangeable. Half of it could work, 0:20:27.396 --> 0:20:30.396 half of it couldn't work, but we'll get through it. 0:20:30.716 --> 0:20:34.276 But our taste, we kind of understand each other and 0:20:34.876 --> 0:20:40.396 in a very a very kind of sensible loving way. 0:20:40.636 --> 0:20:44.516 He's my friend. I love you too, Bert, I really do, man. 0:20:44.636 --> 0:20:47.516 And I think one thing a singer needs to do 0:20:47.916 --> 0:20:52.636 um is to stick to the melody because it's probably 0:20:52.676 --> 0:20:54.436 a good one, you know. And I think a lot 0:20:54.436 --> 0:20:57.596 of singers tend to kind of go into maybe areas 0:20:57.636 --> 0:21:01.556 where they feel like maybe more comfortable, like doing licks 0:21:01.636 --> 0:21:03.516 or something that they know they can pull off, and 0:21:03.596 --> 0:21:07.116 that that that our crowdpleasers, and that doesn't really cut 0:21:07.116 --> 0:21:09.316 it with with with your music. You know, I think 0:21:09.356 --> 0:21:12.116 you've got to, um be the kind of singer that 0:21:12.156 --> 0:21:15.236 can that can stick to the to the inc There 0:21:15.316 --> 0:21:17.556 was an outro and we were working in the studio 0:21:17.596 --> 0:21:20.436 and this was another one of those unforgettable moments. But 0:21:20.516 --> 0:21:22.956 I just had this. I was tempted to kind of 0:21:23.236 --> 0:21:25.836 beer off into some more sort of um, you know, 0:21:26.036 --> 0:21:29.796 dreadful kind of ad libbing. He sort of said, you know, gently, 0:21:29.956 --> 0:21:32.796 you know, maybe let's not let's not let's not deviate here. 0:21:33.276 --> 0:21:36.076 You know, people think that, you know, someone who has 0:21:36.116 --> 0:21:39.276 some harmonic complexity to their music, like Bert, that you 0:21:39.276 --> 0:21:42.556 would think that he's interested in complexity, but he's actually 0:21:42.916 --> 0:21:46.636 quite interested in the opposite. He really loves simplicity. Um. 0:21:46.636 --> 0:21:56.276 He really loves UM a simple um, catchy song. You know. Economics. Yeah, uh, 0:21:56.316 --> 0:22:01.156 what's not there is building in a space. Sometimes that's 0:22:01.316 --> 0:22:05.116 very advantageous. M hmmm. And the more I've gotten to 0:22:05.156 --> 0:22:08.116 know you, I mean, I honestly, you know, I really 0:22:08.116 --> 0:22:10.836 do like that about our collaboration that I um, the 0:22:10.956 --> 0:22:14.916 learning aspect of it for me, and um, the confirmation 0:22:15.036 --> 0:22:19.836 of things that I've instinctively felt, you know, UM, I 0:22:19.876 --> 0:22:22.756 like that. Can you can you give me an example 0:22:22.916 --> 0:22:28.796 when you said, confirmation of things that felt. Well, that 0:22:28.916 --> 0:22:31.756 that really that the things that you love, that you 0:22:31.756 --> 0:22:33.356