Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, we heard the news last week that
Speaker 1: Burt Backrack died at the age of ninety four. He
Speaker 1: was an absolute titan of twentieth century music. Co wrote
Speaker 1: some of the greatest pop songs of all time with
Speaker 1: his partner how David, songs for people like Dione Warwick
Speaker 1: and Dusty Springfield, songs that got interpreted by greats like
Speaker 1: Aretha Franklin and ROBERTA. Flack and Tom Jones. Just an
Speaker 1: absolute monster and one of the best to ever do it,
Speaker 1: and he was working right up until the very end.
Speaker 1: He released an EP called Blue Umbrella with producer Daniel Tashian,
Speaker 1: and we had them both on to speak to Bruce
Speaker 1: Headlum back in twenty twenty. Over the weekend, I spoke
Speaker 1: to Daniel about working with Bert and also asked him
Speaker 1: to put Bert's career into the context of popular music
Speaker 1: in the century. So let's listen to my quick conversation
Speaker 1: with Daniel Tashian, and then we'll replay our twenty twenty
Speaker 1: interview with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian speaking to Bruce Headlam.
Speaker 1: This is broken record line of notes to the digital age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchman. Nice to see you. Yeah, you as well. Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we have that conversation with you. And
Speaker 1: Bert documented such a beautiful group of songs you guys
Speaker 1: put together. And yeah, when did his work enter your consciousness? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I was about the height wherever the height
Speaker 1: it is when the age when your nose is like
Speaker 1: this with the piano, you know, your nose is like
Speaker 1: touching middle C. So I think I was like three
Speaker 1: or four and I heard raindrops keep falling on my
Speaker 1: head because I guess Bush Cassidy maybe had come out
Speaker 1: a few years before that, and it was just kind
Speaker 1: of on the radio and it just sounded like it
Speaker 1: was talking to me, you know. It was just one
Speaker 1: of those melodies and songs that just irresistible. That's a
Speaker 1: great time to discover back rackets. You're just sort of
Speaker 1: eye and the piano for the first time. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I just tried to peck it out on the keyboard
Speaker 1: when my grandmother had a piano along with Mancini, Pink
Speaker 1: panther Don, you know, in California as a kid, also
Speaker 1: obsessed with Christopher Cross with the Arthur's theme, I thought
Speaker 1: that it was like this, you know, window into the
Speaker 1: world of adult emotions and adult feelings. It was like
Speaker 1: when you get caught between the moon and New York City.
Speaker 1: I was like, is that going to happen to me?
Speaker 1: You know? It was like I was just kind of
Speaker 1: fascinated with relationships when I was a kid. I was
Speaker 1: just really thinking about the adult world a lot and
Speaker 1: how it worked and would I be ready for it?
Speaker 1: And Bert was kind of a window. Bert's music was
Speaker 1: kind of a window into that world in a way
Speaker 1: that didn't make it seem impossible. It's funny. I had
Speaker 1: never thought about Bert's music that way, but he could
Speaker 1: write something sort of as simple or something as appealing
Speaker 1: to a kid as rain drops falling on my head,
Speaker 1: and something as like a mature as like heart light,
Speaker 1: and things that just seemed very complex when you're a
Speaker 1: young kid or even a young adult, you know. And
Speaker 1: then you know, when I got a bit older, I
Speaker 1: got a Dion Warick CD that had a lot of
Speaker 1: amazing song and I was like, holy, this stuff is, like,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so deep and and and beautiful.
Speaker 1: It's like when the B section of Walk on By,
Speaker 1: when it transitions to that other section in the horns
Speaker 1: start to rise and the strings start to rise. Du
Speaker 1: it's just celestial and it just transports you. And it's
Speaker 1: just like it really speaks to me. And I don't
Speaker 1: know if you feel this way, but like of the
Speaker 1: potential of humankind to transcend this sort of like kind
Speaker 1: of mediocre existence that we have in a way that
Speaker 1: is eternal, you know, and kind of transcend. And I
Speaker 1: was just listening to Walk on By this morning, and
Speaker 1: I mean, that has to just be one of the
Speaker 1: greatest chord changes, you know. Yeah, it's because it's no
Speaker 1: matter the version you listen to, to be honest, it's
Speaker 1: almost always striking. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's kind of a
Speaker 1: thrill ride to that music. That was one of the
Speaker 1: things I loved about working with Bert was I felt
Speaker 1: like he was making like this wonderful roller coaster slash
Speaker 1: obstacle course for the voice, you know, and they were
Speaker 1: it was just so fun to surf on those melodies,
Speaker 1: you know. That was something that he talked about a lot,
Speaker 1: was the through line of the melody through the whole
Speaker 1: song and just kind of if you look at it,
Speaker 1: is it interesting. Were you nervous collaborating with him at first?
Speaker 1: I was definitely nervous, and you know, he kind of
Speaker 1: wasn't into that, you know, And then I thought, well,
Speaker 1: this is my chance to kind of work with a hero.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to be myself and for better or
Speaker 1: for worse. But you know, it helps when you just
Speaker 1: really love what they do. And of course I wanted
Speaker 1: to write a song with him, but I wasn't really
Speaker 1: expecting that, and so I just thought, well, might as
Speaker 1: well just go for it. And I remember telling his
Speaker 1: manager Sue, I said, you know, I just wish these
Speaker 1: lyrics were better that I was writing, and she said,
Speaker 1: you know something very comforting, which was she said everybody
Speaker 1: feels that way. And after she said that, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: so I'm not the only person that thinks, like, this
Speaker 1: isn't the greatest lyric I've ever done, but it's the
Speaker 1: one I got. And he was very encouraging. Later on,
Speaker 1: when I got more comfortable and he had kind of
Speaker 1: complimented me, then I thought, Okay, I'm gonna try to
Speaker 1: do something really really special, you know. And actually we've
Speaker 1: written two new songs that we were working on just
Speaker 1: a couple weeks before he passed away, and he felt
Speaker 1: that they were two of the best lyrics that I
Speaker 1: had sent him, So I feel sort of honor bound
Speaker 1: to see those through and I will, Wow, how far
Speaker 1: along did you guys get on those? His work is done,
Speaker 1: the music is done. It's just up to me to
Speaker 1: complete the last verse. So it'll be done soon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're they're thrilling. You know, this one called Starlight Motel
Speaker 1: and like he comes in, it's like an E nine
Speaker 1: chord that just doesn't have any thirds in it, and
Speaker 1: it just it just sounds like space. Man, it just
Speaker 1: sounds like you're just looking at a sky full of stars.
Speaker 1: You know, It's just it's amazing. I love that he
Speaker 1: was creating up until, you know, up until he couldn't anymore,
Speaker 1: you know, literally couldn't something comforting. And that to me,
Speaker 1: you know, that he knew his purpose and was just
Speaker 1: able to sort of always be in that purpose. Isn't
Speaker 1: his entire existence? Yeah, I think that was kind of
Speaker 1: one of the things that you know, he really felt
Speaker 1: that music was kind of a saving grace during the
Speaker 1: pandemic when everyone was so cooped up and kind of isolated,
Speaker 1: and I think that was like a real moodlifter for
Speaker 1: both of us during that time, and I remember one
Speaker 1: time I said, well, we got you know, we went
Speaker 1: all the way to the to the Grammys, we got nominated.
Speaker 1: We can we can probably put our feet up for
Speaker 1: a second. He said, nope, not putting my feet up,
Speaker 1: because the day you put your feet up is the
Speaker 1: day that you die. Wow. He just really liked to
Speaker 1: keep moving, you know, keep working, And um, I think
Speaker 1: I took that to heart. You know, I think I'd
Speaker 1: like to be that way. I mean, I'm I'm interested
Speaker 1: in music and words, and I can't I can't see
Speaker 1: a time when I wouldn't be interested, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you think you fully understand everything you might have
Speaker 1: learned from working with Nope, I don't think so. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, stuff has to just kind of filter in.
Speaker 1: And I have a lot of memories. I mean, we
Speaker 1: worked together for five years. We talked on the phone,
Speaker 1: you know, every week at least, and became really close.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I still can't sort of believe
Speaker 1: that he's he's gone, and I miss him. I missed
Speaker 1: just talking to him. And he didn't really love to
Speaker 1: talk about stories, but he did, you know, of the
Speaker 1: old days. But he did give me a few stories.
Speaker 1: But mainly. I think the thing that I loved the
Speaker 1: most was just sitting at the piano with him and
Speaker 1: watching him process and think about things and kind of
Speaker 1: kind of tap on it on the piano. You know.
Speaker 1: He would just sort of dunk dunked different notes and
Speaker 1: then scribble a little bit. And when you hang around
Speaker 1: with somebody like that, it's like their their mannerisms and
Speaker 1: their little things that they light up about that you
Speaker 1: kind of notice and you sort of you don't really
Speaker 1: know what what it means as much as you just
Speaker 1: sort of how it feels. And I think I'll be
Speaker 1: unpacking being with Bert for a long time. One thing
Speaker 1: I can say, though, I can nail down a couple
Speaker 1: of things that I feel like I really he would
Speaker 1: want me to do. He would want me to have
Speaker 1: an interesting melody. He would want me to do something
Speaker 1: that sounds like something that's already out there. He would
Speaker 1: want me to keep pushing and not settle for a
Speaker 1: kind of a lame lyric or a lyric that doesn't
Speaker 1: have any urgency behind it or any reason to kind
Speaker 1: of be a song. We were working on this one song,
Speaker 1: and the lyrics were sort of pretty and kind of
Speaker 1: interesting and then halfway through working on it, he was like,
Speaker 1: I just can't figure out why we need to do
Speaker 1: this song, wow, you know, And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't really know why either, you know, And and
Speaker 1: we just sort of, you know, once he tosses it,
Speaker 1: it's gone. It's like in the fire. I wonder how
Speaker 1: many great songs he scraps just because they weren't to
Speaker 1: his standard. You know. It probably wasn't him that wasn't
Speaker 1: a snuff either. It was probably the lyricist, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, he probably always did his best,
Speaker 1: and if the lyric was just kind of okay, he
Speaker 1: just would sort of lose momentum, you know. And I
Speaker 1: get that. You want something a sense of urgency about
Speaker 1: a song, you know what the world needs now, you know,
Speaker 1: it's got a lot of urgency to it. You know,
Speaker 1: a reason for a song being something that comes out
Speaker 1: and meets the ears of the listeners is like something
Speaker 1: that that's a deep concept. You know. You can take
Speaker 1: that a lot of different ways. That's great. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: glad there's two more to come. It's a real gift
Speaker 1: for the rest of us. He was an angel and
Speaker 1: so kind to me and didn't ever sort of make
Speaker 1: me feel bad about not being a great music reader
Speaker 1: or a site reader or anything like that. Was patient
Speaker 1: with me, and he knew that I, you know, had
Speaker 1: a certain amount of musicality so that we could communicate.
Speaker 1: And you know, I remember being at his house and
Speaker 1: I wanted to play a little bit of pianos so
Speaker 1: that he knew that I knew what he was he
Speaker 1: was doing. And he would say, I didn't know that
Speaker 1: you played piano. And then I asked him who his
Speaker 1: heroes were, who he looked up to, you know, because
Speaker 1: I wanted to know, like, who did he because he
Speaker 1: was who I looked up to, you know, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to know who he looked up to. And he
Speaker 1: just he said, yeah, Carol King Revel, Yeah that's about
Speaker 1: it sounds about right, Yeah, Revel. Did Burt listen to
Speaker 1: music much? And yeah, he loved this guy. He said,
Speaker 1: go one time he called me said, go look up
Speaker 1: Von Lenz. You want to hear a fantastic song, Go
Speaker 1: look up von Lenz. And uh. He this was a
Speaker 1: Brazilian composer and singer that he really really admired. And
Speaker 1: I went and listened to the guys music. It's sure enough.
Speaker 1: It's fantastic Evon Lenz l I N d S. I think,
Speaker 1: and that's something he kind of went back to just
Speaker 1: over the years. Yeah, he's like a Brazilian pop star. Wow.
Speaker 1: I think he's early you know, contemporary. Oh it's a contemporary, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. So he was discovering he was just
Speaker 1: still discovering new music too. Yeah, I think so. I
Speaker 1: mean I think he you know, he did he did
Speaker 1: that album with Doctor Dre a few years ago, about
Speaker 1: ten years ago. And I think he always wanted to
Speaker 1: do something new. He didn't have any set sort of
Speaker 1: way to do things or a way that he has
Speaker 1: to do things. I remember one time I said, do
Speaker 1: you want to start with a melody that I've got?
Speaker 1: Which can you believe that I would say something like that,
Speaker 1: like what was wrong with me? But I said that
Speaker 1: and he was like, yeah, sure, why not? And I
Speaker 1: played him a little of this melody that I had,
Speaker 1: and he said, well, let me mess with a little
Speaker 1: bit because it already sounds like something i've heard before,
Speaker 1: you know. And I was like, okay, yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: and he fixed it to hear Bert tinkering around with
Speaker 1: a melody you wrote I'll tell you the first time
Speaker 1: I heard him play some music underneath some lyrics I
Speaker 1: had sent him, it just my eyes welled up with tears.
Speaker 1: I was just so moved. It was just so beautiful,
Speaker 1: and I felt like that that three year old kid
Speaker 1: that had his nose up to the piano was like
Speaker 1: having this full circle moment of like I was connecting
Speaker 1: with the source of the thing that was so important
Speaker 1: to me as a child and throughout my life. It's
Speaker 1: like he's got music for every age. It's it's I
Speaker 1: don't know, I just I was just overwhelmed with gratitude
Speaker 1: and with emotion. And you know, when he passed away,
Speaker 1: I was almost like it was almost just like a
Speaker 1: transference of transmogrification of energy. And it wasn't like I
Speaker 1: was just sitting there crying. I mean, I was just
Speaker 1: kind of like it was just a a very spiritual
Speaker 1: moment and a kind of a graduation. Man. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: so happy you guys did that music together and that
Speaker 1: you know, we were able to have you guys both
Speaker 1: on at the start of the pandemic, and uh, it's
Speaker 1: great that you guys have some some other music that
Speaker 1: you know, we can still year coming out the greatest.
Speaker 1: I can't believe it. Sometimes the greatest composer of my lifetime,
Speaker 1: without a doubt, and I got to hang out with him.
Speaker 1: I mean, what a dream come true. That was Daniel
Speaker 1: Tashian reflecting on his friendship and the legacy of Burt
Speaker 1: Backrack and music. Now let's go to our twenty twenty
Speaker 1: conversation between Bruce Headlum, Burt Backrack, and Daniel Tashian. Bert,
Speaker 1: you once said that you didn't know that a song
Speaker 1: was going to work until you were in the recording studio,
Speaker 1: until you had the musicians there. What's it like sending
Speaker 1: something I'm going, well, I don't know what it's going
Speaker 1: to sound like because I can't be there always for
Speaker 1: me in the past when they knew people would be
Speaker 1: there or in the in the same studio, I lived
Speaker 1: by the credo of it was the moment of truth.
Speaker 1: You lived or died with that song in the studio.
Speaker 1: It felt good going in, but things can go wrong
Speaker 1: in the concept. I had this habit. I don't know
Speaker 1: whether I ever told you, Daniel, when I got in
Speaker 1: trouble on a date, string players out there and something
Speaker 1: was amiss in the concept. The way the arrangement was
Speaker 1: going down, I'd give a break to the band ten minutes.
Speaker 1: I'd go into the bathroom, to the men's room, into
Speaker 1: a stall, just close the lid, sit on the stall
Speaker 1: and try to hear this whole scope of where this
Speaker 1: record was going, where this song was going, and to
Speaker 1: make sure there were no pimples. If the pimples were there,
Speaker 1: the pimples drove me into the bathroom. And then you
Speaker 1: try to try to work it through and you don't
Speaker 1: have anybody leaning on you. You're not at the piano
Speaker 1: trying to figure it out in a room full of musicians.
Speaker 1: So for me, it's a moment truth. That's where you
Speaker 1: know you got something. So I want to go back
Speaker 1: to how this collaboration started. It started with a meeting
Speaker 1: at your house, Burton. I'd like to hear both of
Speaker 1: you just tell me a bit about how that came about. Okay,
Speaker 1: Daniels on a glow, Daniel's on a winning streak. Daniel
Speaker 1: was a very very happy guy and he had just
Speaker 1: won the Grammy for produce Or of the Year and
Speaker 1: Casey's record, which is a brilliant record, and you pick
Speaker 1: it up from there. Daniel well there's a lot of
Speaker 1: mystery for me around Bert before I met him. And
Speaker 1: you know, they say you shouldn't meet some of your
Speaker 1: heroes because sometimes you know, you can maybe not have
Speaker 1: the kind of interaction that you hope for. But in
Speaker 1: the case of me and Bert, and I do consider
Speaker 1: you to be one of my great heroes. Bert, thank you.
Speaker 1: In that situation. I found you to be very warm
Speaker 1: and welcoming. You welcome me into your music room, sort
Speaker 1: of a sunken kind of living room you kind of
Speaker 1: come down into and there's there's a piano and up
Speaker 1: on the wall, you know, are the are these Oscars
Speaker 1: and Grammys and and Gershwin Award and uh, it's very
Speaker 1: very heavy stuff for a guy like me. And um,
Speaker 1: but you had worked on some music for a little
Speaker 1: lyric Shred that I had sent you, and UM, I
Speaker 1: couldn't help it. Man, the tears came to my eyes.
Speaker 1: It was so beautiful. I loved. I loved the way
Speaker 1: that you, Um made the words that I had written
Speaker 1: kind of come to life in this in this way
Speaker 1: that I never I never could have thought of on
Speaker 1: my own. And and it was just wonderful to be
Speaker 1: there in that room with you, and I was ensconced
Speaker 1: in a very comfortable armchair with a nice cup of
Speaker 1: tea and you were playing to me right right next
Speaker 1: to me, um on the beginning of Blue Umbrella. And
Speaker 1: it's a memory that I'll cherish all my life. And
Speaker 1: I could say this the thing about Daniel, I don't
Speaker 1: think you know, I've had different collaborations with Elsa for
Speaker 1: with how they even ex Carol bayer Seger. There is
Speaker 1: something about this relationship as it's grown and expanded. We
Speaker 1: genuinely really like each other. And the more time that
Speaker 1: we work, connect talk, there's no fear, you know, there's
Speaker 1: no you know, you always have a will. Will this
Speaker 1: future collaborator be something that will like my music? Will
Speaker 1: it work? See Daniel's in this, He's got all bases
Speaker 1: covered because he's I love the way he sings, which
Speaker 1: I didn't know until I heard it. I love his musicianship,
Speaker 1: I love his words. And the thing that I find
Speaker 1: very interesting because I think the work has been really
Speaker 1: productive and really good and proud of what we've done. Daniel,
Speaker 1: and the friendship has grown. So we'll talk at different times. Well,
Speaker 1: we'll keep on writing, you know, Um, We've got a
Speaker 1: couple of more songs in the pipeline now and yeah,
Speaker 1: and the same musicians, but they'll instead of all being
Speaker 1: in the studio, everybody will be in their own house
Speaker 1: like in Nashville. Yeah, and being able to hear each
Speaker 1: other as parts are added. It's a it's not the
Speaker 1: perfect solution, but the sound is good. That was one
Speaker 1: of my concerns, how it would sound stuff coming instead
Speaker 1: of off the board in a studio with all the gear.
Speaker 1: But it sounds really good. So that took any fears,
Speaker 1: concerns of new stuff that we would write. But I
Speaker 1: love it that we've we've done this thing with Blue
Speaker 1: Umbrella and and me too. I'm proud of the songs
Speaker 1: and whatever happens with it, if pride will always be there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to go back to what you said about
Speaker 1: Daniel as a singer. I mean he's mainly known as
Speaker 1: a producer. You know, not everybody can sing a birt
Speaker 1: backrack melody. You've got a very particular flavor of melody.
Speaker 1: You play a lot with the rhythm or the beat
Speaker 1: I guess, the time signature. And obviously you've had some
Speaker 1: incredible collaborators, who do you know, starting with Deon Warwick
Speaker 1: and many others. What does a good Burt backrack singer
Speaker 1: have to have to sing your songs? Well, you don't
Speaker 1: know what you're going to get with Daniel, like because
Speaker 1: we'd worked in a room until we got in this studio,
Speaker 1: but I never had any doubt that he's going to
Speaker 1: sing well. But when I heard him in the studio,
Speaker 1: he does his homework. He comes in prepared. I'm a
Speaker 1: big one in preparation. And then you know it's like
Speaker 1: what works. It's all interchangeable. Half of it could work,
Speaker 1: half of it couldn't work, but we'll get through it.
Speaker 1: But our taste, we kind of understand each other and
Speaker 1: in a very a very kind of sensible loving way.
Speaker 1: He's my friend. I love you too, Bert, I really do, man.
Speaker 1: And I think one thing a singer needs to do
Speaker 1: um is to stick to the melody because it's probably
Speaker 1: a good one, you know. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of singers tend to kind of go into maybe areas
Speaker 1: where they feel like maybe more comfortable, like doing licks
Speaker 1: or something that they know they can pull off, and
Speaker 1: that that that our crowdpleasers, and that doesn't really cut
Speaker 1: it with with with your music. You know, I think
Speaker 1: you've got to, um be the kind of singer that
Speaker 1: can that can stick to the to the inc There
Speaker 1: was an outro and we were working in the studio
Speaker 1: and this was another one of those unforgettable moments. But
Speaker 1: I just had this. I was tempted to kind of
Speaker 1: beer off into some more sort of um, you know,
Speaker 1: dreadful kind of ad libbing. He sort of said, you know, gently,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe let's not let's not let's not deviate here.
Speaker 1: You know, people think that, you know, someone who has
Speaker 1: some harmonic complexity to their music, like Bert, that you
Speaker 1: would think that he's interested in complexity, but he's actually
Speaker 1: quite interested in the opposite. He really loves simplicity. Um.
Speaker 1: He really loves UM a simple um, catchy song. You know. Economics. Yeah, uh,
Speaker 1: what's not there is building in a space. Sometimes that's
Speaker 1: very advantageous. M hmmm. And the more I've gotten to
Speaker 1: know you, I mean, I honestly, you know, I really
Speaker 1: do like that about our collaboration that I um, the
Speaker 1: learning aspect of it for me, and um, the confirmation
Speaker 1: of things that I've instinctively felt, you know, UM, I
Speaker 1: like that. Can you can you give me an example
Speaker 1: when you said, confirmation of things that felt. Well, that
Speaker 1: that really that the things that you love, that you
Speaker 1: and I love and we listen to all the time.
Speaker 1: You know, if it's name anything amazing, whether it's beatles
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, it's all really, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, something that's made sort of of the spirit.
Speaker 1: It's made of the emotion. It's it's it's not it's
Speaker 1: not a it's not the result of um a lot
Speaker 1: of sort of strategic kind of Um, well, if I
Speaker 1: sing it, you know this way here, um, that'll have
Speaker 1: the right effect. No, that's not the way you approach it.
Speaker 1: It's a feeling that you're feeling and you're you're inside
Speaker 1: of that music. And I think you know, Bert's music
Speaker 1: for me is very easy for me as a singer
Speaker 1: to inhabit and to exhibit with a lot of um,
Speaker 1: natural feeling because I do feel those melodies and I
Speaker 1: do feel those sentiments. So there's not a lot of
Speaker 1: strategy behind it. I think that's you know, there may
Speaker 1: be strategy in arrangement and stuff like that, but when
Speaker 1: it comes to displaying or creating those moods, it's it's feeling.
Speaker 1: It's all about feeling. And mood, and it's growing together
Speaker 1: as the song moves on. As the song moves on,
Speaker 1: and it takes shape and takes different turns, and it
Speaker 1: evolves from the five songs on the EP Are There,
Speaker 1: Daniel Is There? Can you take of a particular song
Speaker 1: or passage that may sound like a distinctive Burt backrack
Speaker 1: melody that you just love singing, or that you found
Speaker 1: easy to sing, or that you found really hard to sing. Well,
Speaker 1: they're all tough to sing because what you realize once
Speaker 1: you get behind the wheel on these things is that
Speaker 1: there's um specific jumps, which I would imagine it's similar
Speaker 1: to when an orchestral musician has to play a passage
Speaker 1: that they've got to make a jump that's at a
Speaker 1: significant distance. On the chorus of Bells of Saint Augustine,
Speaker 1: for example, Um, there's a there's a jump there. It's
Speaker 1: not kind of and it's not swooping. It's a specific
Speaker 1: set of notes that that it's very fun to sing.
Speaker 1: But also if you're not in shape, you know, the
Speaker 1: muscles of the throat they've got to um. You've got
Speaker 1: to sort of stick the landing, you know, otherwise you
Speaker 1: kind of come off of a jump and you'll be flat.
Speaker 1: Really you is it? Do you remember the particular interval
Speaker 1: that it was so yeah on the chorus of bells
Speaker 1: of saying Saint Augustine, there's a there's a figure, uh uh,
Speaker 1: And I love singing that so much. Um it's a
Speaker 1: specific series of notes that it's very easy to skid
Speaker 1: off rails on that, especially on that bottom note. And um,
Speaker 1: so those are the challenges for me as a singer.
Speaker 1: You've got to like tighten tighten your control up a
Speaker 1: little bit so you can nail those notes, you know.
Speaker 1: And there's no auto tune on this project. And I
Speaker 1: told Ryan, our our wonderful engineer and mixer, that, um,
Speaker 1: I really wanted to avoid any any tuning, any artificial help,
Speaker 1: and just really as a singer, I wanted to grow.
Speaker 1: I wanted to learn, you know, and get better. And
Speaker 1: a great way to get better as a singer is
Speaker 1: to sing some of Burt stuff, because there's no you
Speaker 1: can't really fake it, you know. Yeah. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back with more from Bruce Hedlams twenty twenty conversation with
Speaker 1: Bert and Daniel. After the Drink, We're back with Bruce
Speaker 1: Headlam's conversation with Bert back Iraq and Daniel Tashian. So
Speaker 1: tell me about the first song you worked on from
Speaker 1: this great EP and and how it started. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: texted and Burt. I texted him basically some lyrics that
Speaker 1: I um was kind of tossing around and m I've
Speaker 1: never worked that way before, with just sending a lyric
Speaker 1: to someone. That's a first for me. I'm usually involved
Speaker 1: in people sitting together in a room with holding guitars
Speaker 1: and playing and stinging together and trying to come up
Speaker 1: with something silentaneously. But it was another aspect of this
Speaker 1: process that was great, different for me in a good way.
Speaker 1: And we've come a long way, Daniel, we have and Bert,
Speaker 1: when you first got those lyrics, do you still do
Speaker 1: you still play every day or you try and get
Speaker 1: at the piano every day? Not every day? Hey, this
Speaker 1: has kept a life going for me, this whole process
Speaker 1: with Daniel, with the EP, with promoting it, with believing
Speaker 1: in it. I'm writing new stuff and a continuing process.
Speaker 1: We'll get two three more songs done and we'll do
Speaker 1: it remotely because that works. Yeah, We'll give the best
Speaker 1: of what we can do. I think you did some
Speaker 1: great direction on lou Umbrella. I'll tell you something funny
Speaker 1: about recording that song. When we were recording that, we
Speaker 1: had figured it out and we were playing it, and
Speaker 1: then when we would go to the to um no
Speaker 1: wonder where we go that part, and the drummer was
Speaker 1: like going to the ride symbol, and every the band
Speaker 1: was sort of flourishing on that section. And Bert got
Speaker 1: on the talk back in the studio and he said,
Speaker 1: it sounds like everybody's like going to the chorus, and
Speaker 1: we all kind of looked at him, like what is
Speaker 1: he talking about? And then I started to understand about
Speaker 1: the way that you're interested in developing. I think things
Speaker 1: simmering a bit more, you know, and not kind of telegraphing.
Speaker 1: You're sort of okay, now we're in the section that
Speaker 1: everybody's supposed to like kind of feel like, okay, now
Speaker 1: this is the point of the whole thing. But maybe
Speaker 1: instead of telegraphing what everybody should feel, it was more
Speaker 1: like let them let the notes and the chords do
Speaker 1: the heavy lifting, and just everybody just holds heavy. Man.
Speaker 1: That was such a lesson. That was so cool. I
Speaker 1: do like a kind of seamlessness if can be done
Speaker 1: that yeah, one goes into the other without an announcement,
Speaker 1: trumpets blaring. You know, now, Bert, had you worked from
Speaker 1: lyrics before? I know you used to often compose and
Speaker 1: then make up dummy lyrics and then how day that
Speaker 1: if someone else would provide lyrics? Did you ever have
Speaker 1: just a lyrics sheet? And you say, okay, now I
Speaker 1: got to create something from these lyrics. Yes, certainly did
Speaker 1: with Alphie because it had to depict what the movie
Speaker 1: was about. So Alphie came. The words came in first,
Speaker 1: absolutely and one of the hardest sons because I wanted
Speaker 1: to make it perfect and it dominated my life. How
Speaker 1: long did it take you to write that? Three weeks?
Speaker 1: Three weeks? Yeah, I would go maybe go to theater
Speaker 1: to see a play, but I've been working on maybe
Speaker 1: the pimples and the song, and I wouldn't enjoy the play.
Speaker 1: I would wind up leaving the theater having solved nothing,
Speaker 1: solved nothing on Alfie and not enjoy the play and
Speaker 1: everything on promises, promises. When we did the musical, all
Speaker 1: the words really that how would have to come up?
Speaker 1: You couldn't write a melody out of a Neil Simon
Speaker 1: script because the dialogue would go into a song and
Speaker 1: it didn't seem to fit to sit down and imagine
Speaker 1: what the song might be because you wanted to make
Speaker 1: it again. The seamless thing I'm talking about, go from
Speaker 1: the script the dialogue continues into song because it's just natural.
Speaker 1: Otherwise I can't conceive a it doing it another way.
Speaker 1: You know a little bit what Danny was talking about,
Speaker 1: that that you didn't want people to feel a chorus
Speaker 1: too soon. It's a little characteristic of some of your songs.
Speaker 1: And Alphie's a good example where sometimes you're not quite
Speaker 1: sure where it's going, like it's got a lot of momentum,
Speaker 1: and then when it ends up because there's there's time
Speaker 1: changes and the harmonies complex well you see, yeah, see
Speaker 1: with Alphie that it just it took me to another
Speaker 1: place by having words and became an eight bar phrase,
Speaker 1: or it became a six bar phrase or a twelve
Speaker 1: bar phraise, just by where the lyric took me. Right, Wow,
Speaker 1: I like very much writing to Daniel's words if he
Speaker 1: sends me. I mean, I had this one phrase on
Speaker 1: Blue Umbrella, the hook the chorus. You know, are you
Speaker 1: still under the same blue umbrella? You know? The way
Speaker 1: you spaced it out you added an extra bar, so
Speaker 1: it became are you still under the same blue out
Speaker 1: of that and it's just a change like that, splitting
Speaker 1: the word instead of going how are you still under
Speaker 1: the same blue umbrella? And that drove the next four
Speaker 1: bars just by that space. Yeah, it continues to evolve.
Speaker 1: And you know Bert thinks about these things a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, he spends a lot of time, Like I
Speaker 1: heard that. You know, Duke Gallington could write arrangements and
Speaker 1: orchestration in in in the midst of middle of chaos
Speaker 1: with no piano. He could just take some paper out
Speaker 1: and write stuff. And Burt's the same way. He can
Speaker 1: sit down at his desk, no piano and just write orchestration. Um,
Speaker 1: just just write it, write down violin parts, write down
Speaker 1: all that stuff. It's wonderful to to to work with
Speaker 1: Bert and watch the way that the musical ideas take
Speaker 1: shape for him and be able to witness the process
Speaker 1: for Bert of how an initial seed or you know,
Speaker 1: of an idea can can expand in his mind and
Speaker 1: what is involved as you're as you're building the structure
Speaker 1: of a song and a melody, what's involved for him
Speaker 1: and what boxes does it have? To tick. It's got
Speaker 1: to you know, he's got to see the whole length
Speaker 1: of it, the whole way, all the way through and
Speaker 1: then forgive me, Burt if I'm you know, telling your
Speaker 1: stories here for you, but right, but he's got to
Speaker 1: see the melody, the long line of the melody, all
Speaker 1: the way through, and then we can start to navigate
Speaker 1: through there. But um, you know, the collaboration is so
Speaker 1: great because we say yes to each other, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, he says, I don't think that the string
Speaker 1: should come in the first first chorus, and I, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't say no, man, we got to get him
Speaker 1: in there. And I just say, okay, Bert, that sounds
Speaker 1: great because I trust you, and he trusts my words
Speaker 1: and the simplicity of whatever it is that I'm trying
Speaker 1: to express with that he trusts it. He doesn't say, hey,
Speaker 1: we don't need to be singing about this right now.
Speaker 1: So we trust each other. And that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: It is absolutely you know, we were talking about the
Speaker 1: feeling when you sit down in a in a movie
Speaker 1: theater and the lights go down and it's a Steven
Speaker 1: Spielberg film. You know that stevens got got you he's gonna,
Speaker 1: he's gonna take on that ride. There's a similar feeling
Speaker 1: with with your music. People you know, they know you
Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna hold them um in in in
Speaker 1: the palm of your hand and carry them through that
Speaker 1: that song, with that that music tell me a little
Speaker 1: bit about Whistling in the dark. About the writing of that, Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: Daniel sent me a well I was I'll just say
Speaker 1: real quickly about the lyric. I just wanted to make
Speaker 1: something um. I like the phrase whistling in the dark
Speaker 1: because it sounds like like somebody that's um going through
Speaker 1: something hard and and and they're kind of consoling themselves
Speaker 1: by sort of trying to create an atmosphere of lightness,
Speaker 1: you know, within themselves. And we wrote that song before
Speaker 1: you know, anybody knew anything about a pandemic or or
Speaker 1: or any of that kind of uh, hard hardship that
Speaker 1: was about to concurse. So there's something about Whistling in
Speaker 1: the dark that's like, I'm I'm feeling that song right
Speaker 1: now because I kind of have to take that song's
Speaker 1: advice and just keep your eyes on the horizon and
Speaker 1: keep your eyes on the light. At the end of
Speaker 1: the tunnel, which you know it's going to come, it's
Speaker 1: just it's going to be a minute. You know, there
Speaker 1: was a hint of what was going I remember it
Speaker 1: was one of the last songs we wrote, and there
Speaker 1: was there was a sense of whistling in the dark. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that Lowe me. So it was almost indicative
Speaker 1: of what was to come. Do you feel that? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: And m You know, whistling in the dark is one
Speaker 1: of those examples of sometimes also you'll sing about something
Speaker 1: as a singer and songwriter and then you don't realize
Speaker 1: what you're singing about until later on it seems to
Speaker 1: take on, you know, more meaning or you realize, oh,
Speaker 1: I was really trying to process this thing that was
Speaker 1: happening in my life. And that's a weird thing that
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can resonate with that bird,
Speaker 1: but um, I think so. I think because uh, there's
Speaker 1: an element in that song like the intro, which is
Speaker 1: very dissonant piano, and it's sort of like where did
Speaker 1: that come from? I wanted to ask you both you
Speaker 1: it sounds a little like like felonious monk, almost like
Speaker 1: it's yeah, like it's falling apart a little bit right,
Speaker 1: and then the ending uh is uh also basically asking
Speaker 1: a question with the strings don't don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't,
Speaker 1: don't don't. You know where did that come from it?
Speaker 1: Do you remember writing that that string part is beautiful
Speaker 1: and the description of it is asking a question is
Speaker 1: so interesting? Do you remember do you remember writing that bit?
Speaker 1: What you were thinking or how it came to you? Um,
Speaker 1: I knew I wanted and I got a definitely push
Speaker 1: from my partner really, Daniel saying that thing you played
Speaker 1: on the piano dissonant, very kind of weird. I love it.
Speaker 1: So it starts that way and then in a very
Speaker 1: weird way too. We'll be right back with the rest
Speaker 1: of Bruce Headlum's conversation with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian
Speaker 1: from back in twenty twenty. We're back with the rest
Speaker 1: of Bruce's conversation with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian. The
Speaker 1: songs you're writing now, because most of these were started,
Speaker 1: you know, before the coronavirus. What are the songs like
Speaker 1: now that you're writing? Well, every song is different. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we were working on one of the songs, the newer
Speaker 1: songs called twenty first Century Man, and it was a
Speaker 1: little bit of a piece of music that I had started,
Speaker 1: and I said to Bert, you know, do you want
Speaker 1: to work on something that I kind of got started
Speaker 1: on but I sort of don't know where to go
Speaker 1: with it. And he said, sure, let's check it out.
Speaker 1: So I played this little bit for him. So I
Speaker 1: like that. So there's this one part where you're going
Speaker 1: that sounds like something I've heard before, and we can
Speaker 1: do better than that, and boy did we ever. I
Speaker 1: thought that was interesting because I think I had come
Speaker 1: from sort of an environment. There's something about being a
Speaker 1: commercial songwriter in Nashville, and I've spent a lot of
Speaker 1: years here writing commercial songs very ineffectively, I might add,
Speaker 1: if you look at the statistics for the number of
Speaker 1: cuts that I've gotten versus the number of songs that
Speaker 1: I've turned in, it's pretty ridiculous. But I sort of
Speaker 1: came from this environment of like it actually is a
Speaker 1: good thing if something sounds like something you've heard before,
Speaker 1: you know, And I feel like you kind of got
Speaker 1: me back on track, Bert, because really, what I want
Speaker 1: to be is innovative in everything I do. I want
Speaker 1: to be I don't want to be sort of giving
Speaker 1: you a hook because it sounds like, oh, I've heard
Speaker 1: that hook before. You know that that's something I can
Speaker 1: get stuck in my car. I want to I want
Speaker 1: to innovate, and I think you you definitely do and
Speaker 1: I think my tendencies are sort of leaning more in
Speaker 1: that direction. I want to make this conversation about the
Speaker 1: EP and the songs you're doing now because they're so good,
Speaker 1: not about your whole career, Bert, because that would take
Speaker 1: us a month, but just that story Daniel told of
Speaker 1: you saying we can do better than that is probably
Speaker 1: something everybody needs to hear, not just songwriters, but particularly songwriters.
Speaker 1: Where does that come from? You're now in your nineties, yep,
Speaker 1: you're putting out sensational music. Thank you, and you're the
Speaker 1: guy saying no, no, no, we can do better than that.
Speaker 1: Where does that come from in you? I think it's
Speaker 1: a it's a growth process. Neil Simon, when we were
Speaker 1: doing Promises Promises one night, made this comment. He said,
Speaker 1: you know, you can get older, get fatter, but you're
Speaker 1: not like Ana, who's finished at thirty two, said you
Speaker 1: get to be eighty. That talent that you've got should
Speaker 1: be nourished. You won't fall back. If somebody says, hey,
Speaker 1: we got this new singer, could you write some of
Speaker 1: the song for her and just make it sort of
Speaker 1: like don't make me over? I would know how to
Speaker 1: do that anymore. That's left me you can't repeat. Do
Speaker 1: you mean it's left you in that you don't remember
Speaker 1: how you wrote songs like that, or just that's not
Speaker 1: something you're interested in doing. I couldn't do it because
Speaker 1: I did it once and when it's done, don't repeat yourself.
Speaker 1: I just want to say that the songs are just
Speaker 1: wonderful and it is just a thrill to meet both
Speaker 1: of you, and I think what you're doing is exciting
Speaker 1: and I think we can do better. Is something I'm
Speaker 1: going to remember the rest of my life. Appreciate you. Thanks, Bruce. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've been good, Bruce. That was Bruce Headlam's twenty twenty
Speaker 1: conversation with Bert Backreq and Daniel Tashin about their ep
Speaker 1: Blue Umbrella. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at
Speaker 1: YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. We can find
Speaker 1: all of our new episodes. You can follow us on
Speaker 1: Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with helpful
Speaker 1: Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell, Benaladay, and Eric Sandler. Our editor
Speaker 1: is Sophie Crane. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
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Speaker 1: At a theme musics by Kenny Beats, I'm Justin Richman.