1 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: Hi know, hey, I know, good to meet you to 2 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: Laurids should be here in just a second, all. 3 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 2: Right, all right, and then we'll head that way. 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: So that's where piss Hill is and uh yes, that's 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: where our famous pists Hill is. 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 4: When Weatherford, Texas residents woke up on the morning of 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 4: March twenty sixth, nineteen eighty three, and news began to 9 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 4: trickle down about what happened up on ten Top Road, accusations, theories, 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 4: and speculation spread immediately. 11 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: I mean, at first, my drive for this was, you know, 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: I can't imagine being a parent and not having answers. 13 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: I can't fathom that. And I can't fathom getting to 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: the point where I just resigned myself over to I'll 15 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: never have answers. I will never know who DI is 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: to my child. I just I can't fathom that me personally, 17 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: especially being a mom. 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 4: Now, District Attorney Max Smith, who took the lead as 19 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 4: spokesperson for law enforcement, came right out of the gate 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 4: and made a promise, we intend to investigate all details 21 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 4: in order to apprehend whoever committed this crime. Forty plus 22 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 4: years have passed since Max Smith made that comment. For 23 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 4: a hardened private investigator like Mel Mitchell, Justice has no 24 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 4: shelf life. When she got involved in twenty twenty two, 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 4: A deep seated empathetic nature as a mother putting herself 26 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 4: in Shelley and Vincent's parents shoes drove Mel to fight 27 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 4: for victim's families, like there's just. 28 00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: No way you There's no way you're going to stop 29 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: me from ever finding out who murdered my child. I 30 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: don't care. I will do into the dyamond breath I have. 31 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 4: Forty four year old Mel Mitchell has shoulder length black hair, 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 4: soft brown eyes set against a clear complexion unstained by 33 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 4: the scorching Texas sun. She doesn't come across like your 34 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 4: typical Texan or at least the big hair and big 35 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 4: belt buckle idea so many have about a Texas woman. 36 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 4: She's reserved, doesn't say much, and comes across outwardly harmless. 37 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 4: Yet spending time with her, I got a sense right 38 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 4: away that there's a steely toughness there, hovering just underneath 39 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 4: the surface. The quiet confidence carrying a nine millimeter handgun 40 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 4: brings to a woman in a tough line of work, 41 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 4: ready to come out should some unsavory type cross her. 42 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 4: Let's go back for a minute. Where did you grow up? 43 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: Mel? 44 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: I grew up in a little place called Ovilla, Texas. 45 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 4: Ovilla is about an hour and fifteen minutes southeast of Weatherford, 46 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 4: driving along the twenty toward mineral wells and much further 47 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 4: out Abilene and Sweetwater. Growing up in Ovilla gave mel 48 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 4: a solid Texan identity, reminding her how important it is 49 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 4: to keep the ties that bind even into your later years. 50 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: It is a super small town, but I ended up 51 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: having to go to a little bit larger district over 52 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: in Red Oak, and so it was nice. I mean, 53 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: we had I think there were like eight hundred in 54 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: my graduating class. I mean, so it wasn't super small 55 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: by any means, but it was just as small enough 56 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: to where you still know the locals and you know, 57 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: felt comfort around town. 58 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 4: As I got to Nomel and she talked about Parker 59 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 4: County in general, she brought up something vital to our 60 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 4: understanding of this case. 61 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: So you have a lot of very wealthy people that 62 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: live out there. There's also a lot of oil and 63 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: gas people. You've got a lot of real estate people. 64 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: For a long time, it was actually there was more 65 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: money poor capita in Parker County than there was DFW 66 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: combined for quite a while, just because people wanted to 67 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: move out of the city and Weatherford or Parker County 68 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: was right on the other side of Fort Worth. And 69 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: so if you want to kind of get outside of 70 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: Fort Worth but still be close enough to city, then 71 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: you go to Parker County. I mean, so the people 72 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: are are really nice, down to earth, your typical Texas people, 73 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: that's what you want to call us, you know, the 74 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: Hallidi Wavy when you drive by. You know, when I 75 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: lived out there, you know, you could drive down street, 76 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: you knew a lot of people. There wasn't nearly like 77 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: the traffic it is now. I mean, it's grown exponentially 78 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: since then. But yeah, it's just a usual small town 79 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: place where everybody kind of knows everybody everybody's business, you know. 80 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: And like I said, it's just a lot of money, 81 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: a lot of cattle, a lot of big ranges out there. 82 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 4: Really, where there is money, problems are not far behind 83 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 4: sometimes big ones, and people can get caught up in 84 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 4: the middle without ever knowing why. With a double murder 85 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 4: case like Shelley and Vincent's unsolved for all these years, 86 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 4: myriad theories have developed. Unsolved homicides of two teenagers can 87 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 4: leave a town reeling to fill in the blanks. One 88 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 4: theory I kept hearing from multiple sources that Shelley and 89 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 4: Vincent saw something they shouldn't have wrong place, wrong time. 90 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,559 Speaker 4: In that sense, they could have been collateral damage within 91 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 4: a much bigger story. 92 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: One of the things we've been told over and over 93 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: again is that they may have witnessed something narcotics related 94 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: that they shouldn't have seen and they had to be 95 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: taken care of. The other motive was jealousy that Shelley 96 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: may have had a relationship with someone prior to and 97 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: it was a jealousy thing between you know, the ex 98 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 1: and Vincent. 99 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 4: After the stock market crash of two thousand and eight, 100 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 4: when the employment rate fell off the charts and private 101 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 4: investigation dried up, Mel went back to behind the bar 102 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: of a local joint, pulling beers and slinging whiskey. The 103 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 4: thing is, people naturally trust the bartender. They talk, they 104 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 4: open up as the night goes on, and the booze flows, 105 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 4: lips get looser. As it turns out, tending bar is 106 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 4: one of the best moves a private investigator can make. 107 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 4: If she wants to develop sources in a case where 108 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 4: the people with the best information have been afraid to talk. 109 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: I decided to go back and barton at a local, 110 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: a brand new restaurant out there in Parker County. Back then, 111 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: there weren't a lot of options. I mean, so anything 112 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: that was new that came into town, everybody went to. 113 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: And so I started working out there and it was 114 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: crazy as busy, and anybody who knew anybody, and anybody 115 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: was politics related. I mean, they all came through the 116 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: bar that worked in. So the information alone that was 117 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: coming through this location was insane. Like I figured out 118 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: and started knowing like who is who, and you know 119 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: how they're affiliated to different people, and you know all 120 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: the politics at the time. I mean, it was just 121 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: it was a great information pipeline to use. I can't 122 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: tell you how many people i'd meet, you know, that way, 123 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: or if someone found out what I was doing on 124 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: the side, then they would kind of be like, hey, 125 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: I heard a rumor, and I'm like, oh, what's the rumor. 126 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 4: Then something happened one day in the bar changing everything. 127 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: People knew that I could keep my mouth. That's a 128 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: really big, big part of it. Of course, and so. 129 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: But they had a group of guys that come in 130 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: every Friday morning, and their class of sixty six and 131 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: sixty seven, and there were used to be about twenty 132 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: of them. And anyway, one of them's name is Ronnie Caulflower. 133 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 4: In all the years Mel had known Ronnie before that day, 134 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 4: he had never once mentioned that his stepdaughter Shelley was 135 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: one of the two murder victims from nineteen eighty three 136 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 4: up on Tin Top Road. Ronnie and Janetta had been 137 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 4: divorced for quite some time by then, but Ronnie still 138 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 4: lived in Weatherford. He kept a low profile and would 139 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 4: rarely discuss what happened. 140 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: I've never heard of Ronnie talking about any of his family. 141 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: Like I knew he had been divorced, but I didn't know. 142 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: He was very quiet about his private life, and so 143 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: I just never heard. And I was like, yo, let me, 144 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: let me ask Ronnie and just see if this is 145 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: his daughter. So I pulled him aside. I asked him 146 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: and he's like, yes, that's my daughter. I was like, well, 147 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: you've never said anything about her before. He's like yeah, 148 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: I just haven't because I know it's never going to 149 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: be solved. There's nothing that you might can do about it. 150 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, why do you say that. He's like, 151 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: because of the local, you know politics, We'll put it 152 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: that way. I was like, okay, well you know what 153 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: I do you know outside of you know, working here, 154 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: And he's like, well yeah, And I was like, well, 155 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: do you want me to look into it. 156 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 4: That one serendipitous moment reignited a fire in this case. 157 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 4: For decades before this, nothing new had really been uncovered. 158 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 4: The case was stuck and going nowhere. Law enforcement had 159 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 4: made another run at it in twenty twenty one, yet, 160 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 4: as one current weather for cold case detective told me, 161 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 4: nothing came from that reinvestigation. But now you had a 162 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 4: private investigator, not connected to the case in any way, 163 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 4: stepping in and getting to work for one of the families. 164 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: And he's like, if you can, that'd be great, but 165 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you right now, it's going to 166 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: be a rabbit hole. I'm like, well, what do you mean, 167 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: He's like, because there's there's a lot more connected to 168 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: my daughter's murder than just just my daughter and her boyfriend. 169 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, well let me just let me 170 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: see what I can I can. 171 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 4: Do mel of course, asked the first question. Any cold 172 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 4: case investigator would It had been forty years by the 173 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 4: time she stepped up. Surely by now there had to 174 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 4: be boxes of documents from any prior investigation the family 175 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 4: had access to. 176 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: Do you have any you know files, do you have 177 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: any paperwork? And he's like, well, there's a justice page 178 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: on Facebook and it's called you know, Justice for Shelley 179 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: and Vincent and run by Shelley's cousin and Laurie. And 180 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: he's like, you need to reach out to both of them, 181 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: or primarily Laurie. She's once been running the website. 182 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 4: Laurie Kate's who you heard in a previous episode, had 183 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 4: taken over as administrator of the Facebook group. 184 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: So I called Laurie up and I had a long 185 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: conversation with her, and I was like, hey, I know 186 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: you're working with his cousin the All's website. I kind 187 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: of looked up that it had been up for about 188 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: I think a year, maybe year and a half, and 189 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: it had a couple of you know, posts here and there, 190 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: and there's a couple of people would say, you know, 191 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: a couple of things on it, but it really wasn't 192 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: up and going. Really, I mean, it wasn't generating any leads. 193 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 4: And it became that chance encounter, an unplanned conversation between 194 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 4: Mel and Ronnie and Mel inevitably contacting Laurie Kates that 195 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 4: ultimately revived this case in a way nothing else had 196 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 4: up to this point. For the first time, maybe since 197 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 4: the case began back in nineteen eighty three, people would 198 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 4: start talking again and change the entire course of the 199 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 4: investigation previously on paper ghosts. 200 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 5: Johnny, she was shot, her invents it. We're both shot. 201 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 5: Of course, I just lost it. It's not real. 202 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 6: This is not real and not mine, Shelley, No, you know, 203 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 6: and it's just like a oh, I cannot even tell 204 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 6: you what it feels like. 205 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 4: And then I heard it again. 206 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: I heard like a thunder noise, and then I heard 207 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: what sounded like a gunshot. 208 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 4: And then I think I may have heard it maybe 209 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 4: one or two more times. 210 00:12:58,360 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 7: And then that was it. 211 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 8: That we were always told never say when it gets dark, 212 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 8: because that was known to be wherethy KKK would come 213 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 8: and do their nightly things or whatever meetings. So if 214 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 8: you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, 215 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 8: then you would get caught in that. 216 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 4: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 217 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 4: in the New York Times, bestselling author of dozens of 218 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: true crime books. This is season five of Paper Ghosts 219 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 4: the Texas teen Murders. After the initial shock of finding 220 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 4: his son Anne Shelley Cauliflower shot to death had passed, 221 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 4: if only for a brief moment, Vincent Tjerina Senior did 222 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 4: not know what to do next. His son had been 223 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 4: murdered so brutally, he had witnessed the aftermath of the 224 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 4: crime scene firsthand, an unimaginable horror apparent finding his child's 225 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 4: brutalized body, his eye dislodged from its socket, blood spatter 226 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 4: on the ground and inside the car. Family members gathered 227 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 4: at the Tea Gerina household to console one another, anticipating 228 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 4: facts about what had happened. With so many rumors already 229 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 4: spreading around town, the Tea Jerinas stayed close and tight, 230 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 4: waiting for law enforcement to brief them. Of course, you'd 231 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 4: expect a massive investigation, with yellow crime scene tape flapping 232 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 4: in the wind, roads blocked off, and a man hunt 233 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 4: underway for a suspect. As Weatherford police spared no expense, 234 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 4: spread out and began rounding up anyone that looked good 235 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 4: for it. Somebody had to have information. Piss Hill was 236 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 4: a hot spot on Friday nights. There had to be witnesses. 237 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 4: As you've already heard, Robert Hardin was the first officer 238 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 4: on the scene, and what he has to say begins 239 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 4: to paint a picture of just how chaotic and loose 240 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 4: this investigation became from the moment it started. And I 241 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 4: don't think at this point this is by the fault 242 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 4: of anyone in particular, more than it was a small 243 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 4: department ill equipped to deal with a double homicide of 244 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 4: this magnitude. 245 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 3: Of course, I was never questioned about what I found 246 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 3: when I got out here before, I had no the 247 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 3: investigat yourself from or asked me about anything other than 248 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 3: the fact that I. 249 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 7: Reverse from there. 250 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 3: And I understand that ain't even been totally different, man. 251 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 3: I mean, well, as far as far line knew, I 252 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 3: was your first person here inside, Vince, he was here. 253 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: Did you write a report. 254 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 7: Just my regular report and got the call. 255 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: And did when in the report? Did you put what 256 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: you saw at the scene and all of that. 257 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 3: No, we're right out here. I turned it over to 258 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: the car the police station. 259 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 4: In a later interview with one of the first homicide 260 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 4: detectives on the scene that morning, he states the crime 261 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 4: scene was quote screwed up. There were people walking around everywhere. 262 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:50,239 Speaker 4: What's more, he claims it was another officer, Patrick Mahoney, 263 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 4: who showed up on the scene first, not Robert Harden. 264 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 4: I asked Harden what he did next after reporting to 265 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 4: the SEEN and turning it over to several Weatherford police investigators. 266 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 7: I didn't have any any connection anything that happened. 267 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 4: And what was the talk around the the PD about 268 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 4: what had happened? Were there are rumors going around the 269 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 4: PD or talk about what might have happened? 270 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: Who could have been responsible? 271 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 8: Uh? 272 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 7: Yeah, they were talking. 273 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 3: I'm sure I wouldn't. I mean I would be involved 274 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 3: in any conversation, right, I would have thrown One night 275 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 3: there was one of a little low look thet pubs. 276 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 3: I didn't you know what they didn't didn't figure out 277 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 3: I had anything you have over them? 278 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 2: Well, that's wow. But you remember the blood on the. 279 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 4: Ground, that picture, there's a picture of it. 280 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: I've seen a picture of it. 281 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 3: They were blood on the ground on her side. I 282 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 3: didn't see anything on his side. 283 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: And he was shot in the head as well. 284 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was shouting the head. He was shouting the head, 285 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 3: trying to remember. I know they were both shot in 286 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 3: the head. He was shot in the second time, and 287 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: I figured both shots from where the cars shutting, Like say, 288 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: I have been told to build a car parked over 289 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 3: on the other side of the building, and I had 290 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 3: been moved over here, and of course in thenc fad out. 291 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 3: Later Vincent said he addressed the kid after he got here. 292 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 4: In talking to Robert Harden further, I found out that 293 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 4: his understanding was that the Monte Carlo was first spotted 294 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 4: across the street by the school building that used to 295 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 4: be there, and he had no idea who moved it. 296 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 4: In that same interview with the lead detective, he says 297 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 4: he believed the kids were killed where the vehicle was 298 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 4: found on top of Piss Hill, in other words, right 299 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 4: there in the parking lot. He also thought that the 300 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 4: blood on the ground, which I have seen a crime 301 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 4: scene photo of, ripped off the door before the door 302 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 4: was shut. But one of the most confusing pieces of 303 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 4: early information was when he noticed that Vincent Junior's belt 304 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 4: was on backwards and both kids were sitting up holding hands. 305 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 4: Remember Harden says Vincent Senior admitted to him that when 306 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 4: he first got there, he moved their bodies, effectively restaging 307 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 4: the scene and quite horrifically. Vincent Senior even tried putting 308 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 4: his son's eye back into the socket. 309 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 3: I had up til after all, after after, and I 310 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 3: heard all these tails and the first line I heard 311 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: vetting move the deal was a drug. Without that, I 312 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 3: heard the other side of the ledo. 313 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 4: Several details I kept hearing early into my investigation and 314 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 4: was still trying to verify. Was that Shelley's body on 315 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 4: her right side looked as though it had been dragged 316 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 4: through a briar patch. That her clothing was dirty and muddy, 317 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 4: but oddly, her tennis shoes, placed almost methodically perfect inside 318 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 4: the vehicle on the floorboard, were clean and had no 319 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 4: dirt or mud on them. 320 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 2: Do you remember her having any scratches on her and 321 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 2: he bruises on her or anything like that? 322 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 7: Oh, I got here. 323 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: All I won't do to turn They weren't all alive, 324 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 3: were the Dad reserve? I mean, hey, you know, I 325 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 3: mean I didn't really look playing that much. Well, I 326 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 3: knew I wouldn't have much to do. 327 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 4: I was curious about Vincent Senior's demeanor because in my 328 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 4: research I hadn't come across any information that he'd been 329 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 4: hysterical or upset in the way you might expect. And 330 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 4: if we're looking at this objectively, after learning that he 331 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 4: might have staged the scene, Vincent Senior had to be 332 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 4: considered a person of interest. 333 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 7: I'm gonna hate you upset. You know, he didn't. He 334 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 7: didn't want to tell you why, right, I didn't have 335 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 7: any reason to expect. 336 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: I mean, he was out looking for them, right. 337 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 4: So the idea being, why would a guilty man, knowing 338 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 4: what he'd done, then go in search of the kids? 339 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 4: Makes no sense. He kills them and then alerts law 340 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 4: enforcement to where they are. 341 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: Now the car here? Would it have been easily visible 342 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 2: from the road at night? 343 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 7: Well, yeah, of course that road wasn't near big thing, now, 344 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 7: you know. Grab. 345 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 4: I pointed to Tin Top Road, down a short decline 346 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 4: from where Harden and I stood in the same spot 347 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 4: where the Monte Carlo was found. 348 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 2: If you're driving by. 349 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 4: You could see the car here, yeah, if you were 350 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 4: looking like Vincent Senior. 351 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: He was looking. But I guess he came by here earlier. 352 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: The car wasn't here. 353 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 7: You know, and I've heard it it was parked behind 354 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 7: the building. 355 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 2: Did they bring Vincent in and question him that night 356 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 2: or morning? They never questioned him, Jesus. 357 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 4: I wondered if the inside of the car was spattered 358 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 4: with blood, if they were killed inside the car with 359 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 4: twenty two caliber hollow points, as I have heard, they 360 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 4: would have to be visible blood spatter and a hell 361 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 4: of a lot of it. 362 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 3: What But I'm went the blood inside the car and 363 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 3: blood still dripping out of the car, and that's why 364 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 3: I can't figure out. You know, I don't know how 365 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 3: long it takes blood to congeal. But if it had 366 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: been very, very long, and I think it would have been, jail, 367 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: wouldn't still run them out of the car dripping out. 368 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 7: Of the car, you know when I got here. If 369 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 7: it had just been an hour, if it be well, 370 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 7: I mean I've. 371 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 3: Heard that they thought it happened further, you know, for 372 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 3: three hours or four five or even. 373 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: More right in midnight someone something like that. 374 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and. 375 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 7: I don't know the bodies have been moved before I 376 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 7: got here. 377 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 2: It's hard to believe they would be targets of this murder. 378 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, unless unless, like I said, I you know, when 379 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 3: I first saw the car, I thought it was a 380 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 3: drug dealer's car. 381 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 2: See now that makes the most sense, right, That makes 382 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: the most sense. That the car was mistaken for a 383 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 2: drug dealer. The drug dealer had to hit on them. 384 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 8: That's what. 385 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 7: And you know, I've thought that for a long time. 386 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 7: That may have been the case. You know, sure. 387 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 3: Now I heard one of these meetings if somebody said 388 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 3: that they shut the two d after's car up there, 389 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 3: and that was and the way they talked after it 390 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 3: must have been an hour maybe two hours before I 391 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 3: got there before. As I know, they never are disfactor. 392 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: I dispassed that dispatched for shift fartner than that too. 393 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 3: You And as far as I'd ever heard, they never 394 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,959 Speaker 3: had an't report before the shift aft to the control 395 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 3: call over here. 396 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 7: So I don't know or I hadn't. 397 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,239 Speaker 3: I mean, the the only reason I thought they might 398 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 3: have been took patrol call up here to report somewhere. 399 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 7: Said they show. 400 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 4: Robert Harden had just told me that two hours before 401 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 4: he even arrived, two patrol cars were reported up on 402 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 4: the top of Pissel part in back of the Monte Carlo. 403 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 4: Vincent and Shelley had been murdered in it's vitally important 404 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 4: to have a complete understanding of this crime scene and 405 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 4: where it is located. The layout establishes so many different 406 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 4: points of view you will hear from witnesses I have interviewed. 407 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 4: So I asked mel Mitchell to describe the scene from 408 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 4: the point of view of driving up to it. If 409 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 4: you are thinking about this like me, something isn't adding up, 410 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 4: particularly the car being right there out in the open 411 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 4: for everyone to see, almost as if it's on display, 412 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 4: like say, somebody was trying to send a message. With 413 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 4: so many other teen deaths within the county, which we 414 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 4: will get into as we move forward, you have to 415 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 4: wonder if the entire crime scene, not just the kids' bodies, 416 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 4: was staged. 417 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: Well, if you go down I twenty and you exit 418 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: onto Tent Top Road, there's a kind of a gravel 419 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: area on one side of the road because it meets 420 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: there's a Cleveborn Avenue that basically comes out onto Tent 421 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: Top Road. So on one side you've got the old 422 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 1: municipal power plant, and then on the other side you've 423 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: got you've got where the old consolidated school building used 424 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: to be. The gist of the area is still the 425 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: same back then. It's just you're just miss seeing the 426 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: building is pretty much what it is. And so a 427 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: lot of kids back then they'd go up and down 428 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: Main Street cruising. We all know how that was for 429 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: some of us not so old people. Would you know, 430 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: you go and stop in into Sonic halfs and drinks, 431 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: see your buddies, and then move on down to next 432 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: area on the road. I mean, I've heard there could 433 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: be up to seventy five hundred kids up there on 434 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: a Friday Saturday night. And so the cops that come 435 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: by and just like, you know, hey, make sure you're 436 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: not having any fights going on, like that was their 437 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: big thing is just don't have fights, you know, just 438 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: keep it under control. Kind of toned down, mellowed out, 439 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: so it wasn't a place where there was a lot 440 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: of privacy. 441 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 4: There's no place to hide up there where the car 442 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 4: was found. It's all out in the open, no obstructions. 443 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 4: If Vincent Senior had driven by there at all throughout 444 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 4: the night as he searched for the kids, which is 445 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 4: what Vincent Senior began telling everyone, he would have seen 446 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 4: the vehicle, no question about it. 447 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: I mean to be honest. I mean, if you're gonna, 448 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: I guess you want to make out your girlfriend, you 449 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: might would have to drive behind the consolidate school building, 450 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: or maybe there were some trees across the stream on 451 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: the municipal side that might give you a little bit 452 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: more privacy. 453 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 4: And if I'm Officer Robert Harden, I'm driving up there 454 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 4: that night, what do I see when I get up there? 455 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: So he blues, it looked like they've just kind of 456 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: been pulled in, like off the road facing east with 457 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: the headlights on, and so it wasn't that hard to 458 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: see it from the road. I mean, it's just kind 459 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: of like you're driving on the roads just right there. 460 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 4: Then Mel gives me a peculiar detail about the crime scene. 461 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 4: I hadn't heard no keys. Oh that's interesting. I didn't 462 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 4: know that. So the headlights were on, which means it 463 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 4: couldn't have been there longer than an hour per se. 464 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what the bowery life is on 465 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: the Monty Carlos back then, but yeah, I assume hour 466 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: maybe two that you could just keep your headlights on 467 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: and train the battery. 468 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 4: Sure, as we move forward, I want you to build 469 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 4: a crime board in your mind like the ones you 470 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 4: see on TV. You'll begin to place all of these 471 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 4: various scant, seemingly minor details on that board, the contradictions, 472 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 4: the different stories, the conflicting facts times, what people hear 473 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 4: and see, because all of it will begin to tell 474 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 4: a story. As I began to do this literally in 475 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 4: my office and would soon implore mel Mitchell to help 476 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 4: me out, it became abundantly clear that several people are 477 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 4: either lying or misremembering things. So what is the assumed 478 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 4: time of death? 479 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: Anywhere between say ten thirty to one am is what 480 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: we're guessing. 481 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 4: And what time does Harden get there? 482 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: He gets there around five forty five ish, because he 483 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: was just about to get off his shift that morning 484 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: at six am when a call came out that Vincent 485 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: Senior had found them and he needed to go up there. 486 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,239 Speaker 4: Come to find out, just after Vincent Senior found them 487 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 4: and staged the scene, he rushed to a neighbor's house 488 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 4: to call nine to one one. Well, then someone had 489 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 4: that car for most of the night because the lights 490 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 4: could not have been on right, So after they were murdered, 491 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 4: someone had possession of that vehicle. I believe so, Yes, Otherwise, 492 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 4: the keys would have been in it, and they just 493 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 4: want to clarify that. Robert Harden assumed that they were 494 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 4: shot from the driver's side, but that's that's impossible because 495 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 4: she's shot on the right autopsy says right hand side, and. 496 00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 8: So is he. 497 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: He You wish on the right hand side too, because 498 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: they all remember his left side being just really messed up, 499 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: the eye kind of hanging out, So it would have 500 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: been on the right temple as well for Vincent. 501 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 4: And the window was rolled up correct. Mel Mitchell has 502 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 4: interviewed over one hundred people involved in the case, including 503 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 4: former law enforcement at the time of the murders. The 504 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 4: information she has gathered, compared with some of the information 505 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 4: first officer on scene, Robert Harden, gave me, entirely contradicts 506 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 4: one another. It's almost as if a group of people 507 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 4: are purposely confusing and conflating the situation. And if that 508 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 4: is true, the obvious question is why. 509 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 9: It wouldn't be fair to say that we didn't have 510 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 9: I mean, we obviously had a crime scene that was 511 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 9: worked out there, but with aut of time that elapsed, 512 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 9: you almost experience a similar thing there, right because the 513 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 9: com scene wasn't handled in nineteen eighty three the way 514 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 9: it would be handled today, or even in nineteen ninety 515 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 9: three for that matter, just just a different world. 516 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 4: In all my years of investigating cold cases, where information 517 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 4: is expected to be in conflict and often mistaken or 518 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 4: even forgotten, I do not think I've run into a 519 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 4: case with more opposing details. And one of the reasons 520 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 4: for that is the lack of documentation available from the 521 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 4: earliest stages of the investigation. Here once again is the 522 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 4: current cold case investigator working for the Weatherford Police Department, 523 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 4: Lieutenant Johnny Qualls, reiterating the lack of control over that 524 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 4: crime scene. 525 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 9: Policing and all that stuff. He evolves like everything else, 526 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 9: and uh, and it's just it, just it. You know, 527 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 9: I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't 528 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 9: lose sleepover it. It frustrates you, and you find yourself 529 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 9: it's not fair. It's it's not fair to be angry 530 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 9: or mad at some of those folks that just didn't 531 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 9: know any better. But you find yourself being angry and 532 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 9: mad at him in those moments nonetheless, because it's like, 533 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 9: you know, if you had just. 534 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 7: Done this, then we would have this. 535 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 4: Robert Harden says he wasn't the first law enforcement officer 536 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 4: on scene. Information that's in dispute. There are those reports 537 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 4: of two patrol cars spotted on the scene in the 538 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 4: hours before he arrived. So what Harden sees when he 539 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 4: gets there is not an accurate depiction of the crime scene, 540 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 4: which will later be borne out by the facts. 541 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: Was there blood inside the car unas? 542 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,479 Speaker 7: Huh were small? Kelvin? 543 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 8: Ye? 544 00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 7: Yeah, I didn't. Family, they found three shils. 545 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 4: I confirmed this with someone who inspected the vehicle not 546 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 4: long after the kids were found in the back seat. 547 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 4: On the floorboard of the vehicle, three shells were located, 548 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 4: along with a used condom stuffed into the seat. 549 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 2: Did Vincent appear to be shot from the back. 550 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 8: After? 551 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 7: I can't? You know, I can't. I can't remember. 552 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 4: Gruesome scene though, Oh yeah, I'm I didn't ask me 553 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 4: like I've a report or anything, but found nobody asked 554 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 4: you questions after even years after, even after him. According 555 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 4: to Harden, he was never formally interviewed, not ever, which 556 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 4: is be beyond suspect to me. What's more, both kids 557 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 4: were shot behind their heads, which I confirm after getting 558 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 4: my hands on an autopsy report that showed up under 559 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 4: extremely odd circumstances. In late twenty twenty four, here's Mel 560 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 4: Mitchell once again. 561 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 1: We believe that they were shot with twenty twos, and 562 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: so depending on you know, which twenty two were talking about. 563 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: We know that twenty two is usually when it enters 564 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: the body just kind of bounces around. So I don't 565 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 1: know if with his injuries, if they had found the shell, 566 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: like the actual you know, bullet fragment like inside his brain, 567 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: or if it exited. But I haven't heard of any 568 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: kind of you know, bullet holes in the car, And 569 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: like that's one of the first questions to ask, is, hey, 570 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: were the windows intact? Did you find anything on the 571 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: car door that might show there was a bullet that 572 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: hit it? None of that, So I'm assuming it probably 573 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: didn't exit, But I don't know for a fact. 574 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,720 Speaker 4: Every indication that I've seen read spoken to people about 575 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 4: is that they had to be executed outside of the 576 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 4: vehicle and staged inside the vehicle. What are your thoughts 577 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 4: on that. 578 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 1: Well, we do know that there was two huge pools 579 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: of blood next to the passenger side when they were discovered, 580 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: because Vincent was pushed all the way back as seat 581 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,320 Speaker 1: was pushed all the way back. You know, he obviously 582 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: didn't drive that, but we also knew that the kids 583 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: were staged in a position that wasn't well known. I 584 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: don't know if I want to disclose that on this 585 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: because it could obviously probably help catch Smody. They could say, yes, 586 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: we know this is how they were, this is how 587 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: we position them. But we do know that wasn't the 588 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: way that Robert would have seen them, because we know 589 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: that Vincent Senior had actually positioned them himself when he 590 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: found the bodies, and so they were positioned to where 591 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: Vincent's head was kind of back against the headrest, but 592 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: there was blood flowing down on the backside of his 593 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: seat and then down to the floorboard. And then Shelley 594 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: she was either kind of leaning against him or she 595 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: was kind of leaning on the side of the car door, 596 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: like her head just kind of resting on that, because 597 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: we believe there's some blood flowing down the right side 598 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 1: of the car door. But yes, there's a good possibility. 599 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: We firmly believe that she, especially Shelley, was shot outside 600 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: the car because some of the people had interviewed that 601 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: were there helping kind of clean the scene and get 602 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: the bodies they had said that they it looked like 603 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: Shelley had possibly bled out somewhere else. 604 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 4: Anytime you have victims murdered in one location and staged 605 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 4: in another, especially two people, one of whom is male 606 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,359 Speaker 4: one female, you have to consider two or more suspects 607 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 4: being involved. In addition, mel also believes, same as others 608 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 4: I've spoken to, the car was definitely moved from another 609 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 4: location to the place where it was found. 610 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of blood for her, so they 611 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: do believe that there's possibility that she probably was placed 612 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: in the car and shot outside, which maybe she was 613 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,240 Speaker 1: shot where that the blood was on the ground. 614 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 4: And there was also a report you got from someone 615 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 4: about maybe a face in print in the mud as well. Right. 616 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: One of the family members was very adamant that when 617 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: he had gone up there to look around himself, he 618 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: really felt like he saw a face like imprint in 619 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: the dirt, like next to the blood pools, and he 620 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 1: really thought it was Shelley's face. He's like, it still 621 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: kind of haunts me where I can just still see 622 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: his face in like the gravel. 623 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 4: For Janetta Colliflower Smith, those early days as the investigation 624 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 4: unfolded still play like a film inside her head. Within 625 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 4: the first few days, a Weatherford Police Department investigator who 626 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 4: would become the collieflower point person, visited their home and 627 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 4: explained to Janetta and Ronnie what to expect in the 628 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 4: coming days and weeks. 629 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 6: You know, we're gonna find you, Johnny. You know, we're 630 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 6: gonna handle and but you know, at that moment, it's 631 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 6: you can't even think of stuff. 632 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 4: You just and for days for us, I mean, it 633 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 4: was he lied to you. 634 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 5: You know, that's where I go. This is what I mean, 635 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 5: this is what drives me nuts. 636 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 6: And they I don't know why they had to tell me, 637 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,959 Speaker 6: but he said that it shot one of Vincent's eyes 638 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 6: completely out well, and so of course that puts it 639 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 6: into you know, I think it's silly, and. 640 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 5: You know, everything was just so that's where I'm at. 641 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 4: You could understand a car accident, right, definitely, you could understand, Okay, 642 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 4: it's a tragedy, but this is murder. 643 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 6: And these are kids, good kids, you know, if they 644 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 6: didn't run around, you know, if they didn't run around 645 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 6: with bad kids, they all the people that they ran. 646 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 2: It was good kids. 647 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 6: I mean, they didn't run around with gang type kids 648 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 6: or club type kids. You know, these kids did nothing 649 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 6: to anyone. They did nothing to anyone. 650 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 4: What are you hearing in the beginning when you when 651 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 4: you kind of I don't know how to put it, 652 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 4: but come come out of the fog maybe a week 653 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 4: later or two weeks. 654 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 2: What are you hearing? 655 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 4: I mean you must because grief goes from stages to 656 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 4: anger to depression. 657 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 7: We all know that. 658 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 4: So when you come out of it and you're in 659 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,239 Speaker 4: you know, my god, who did this? So what are 660 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 4: you hearing about that? 661 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 8: Oh? 662 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 5: I lived at the police station. 663 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 2: Tell me about that. 664 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,320 Speaker 6: You know, I would go daily, Okay, what do you know? 665 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 6: Tell me you know what's going on? Well, we're working 666 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 6: on it, and we're looking at some people. And that's 667 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 6: basically all that I would get. It's, you know, until 668 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 6: one day on down the line, I come in and 669 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 6: I say, okay, what's going on? 670 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 5: You know what's going on? Johnny? We've been told we 671 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 5: can't question, we can't question. 672 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 8: That. 673 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,960 Speaker 5: It's the mayor. Something to do with the mayor and then. 674 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 6: Chief of horts he said, Johnny, it's the mayor, and 675 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 6: we can't because they will own us. We can't question 676 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 6: this person anymore. Are they will own us. 677 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 4: So he's basically telling you that they're. 678 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,280 Speaker 5: Hot for in this, that he is a hot suspect. 679 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 4: That's suspect. She mentions, whose name I redacted, was related 680 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 4: to a top law enforcement official at the time and 681 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,720 Speaker 4: was in law enforcement himself. He also drove a county 682 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 4: issued cruiser, and Janetta is told investigators have been blocked 683 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 4: from questioning him. They have to stop investigating because of 684 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 4: the mayor. 685 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 5: They got scared. It takes my daughter's life. You know, 686 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 5: I'm scared too. They didn't deserve it. 687 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 4: As I began to dig into this thread in twenty 688 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 4: twenty four, several things begin happening. One, someone in law 689 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 4: enforcement is secretly feeding information to family members, who then 690 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 4: turn around and pass that information along to me. And two, 691 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,919 Speaker 4: I begin to hear about a sausage plant, a well known, 692 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 4: very wealthy business owner and human trafficker allegedly involved in 693 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 4: the drug trade, who is deeply connected to and in 694 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 4: bed with those names you have been hearing me leep out. 695 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 4: I asked whether for Police Department Lieutenant Johnny Qualls, who 696 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 4: is one of the cold case to de actives looking 697 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 4: into the murders today, what he thought initially when he 698 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 4: looked at the case. 699 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,839 Speaker 9: You just want to approach it with a fresh set 700 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 9: of eyes and be open minded. And so many theories, 701 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 9: so many persons of interest. 702 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,120 Speaker 4: I don't know that I've ever. 703 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 9: Seen anything like it, or that I ever would again. 704 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 9: I don't know if some of that had to do 705 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 9: with them being teenagers and Weatherford. We also got to 706 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 9: understand whether it was a much different community. We're still 707 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 9: a small town in some ways, but in nineteen eighty 708 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,360 Speaker 9: three we were much more rural. We hadn't experienced as 709 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 9: much groff as we had to do. So it really 710 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 9: was one of those deals where everybody probably knew everybody, 711 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 9: and then we had two teenagers shot to death, and 712 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 9: you know, I think both of them were fairly popular 713 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 9: in high school and fairly well known and cruising the 714 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 9: boulevard of South Maine, and so everybody knew. Everybody had 715 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 9: a theory. Maybe that's the best way. 716 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,239 Speaker 4: To say that I am not naive or ignorant. I 717 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 4: know when a cop is kind of yanking my chain. 718 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 4: But I left it there with Lieutenant Qualls for the 719 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 4: time being and played it off like I was just 720 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 4: stepping into the case and didn't know much. Soon I 721 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 4: would go at him hard and find out why there 722 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,800 Speaker 4: is all this odd secrecy and shuffling of the facts 723 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:26,880 Speaker 4: surrounding this case. Talking to him, I wondered about Vincent 724 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 4: who found the kids, and if he was ever looked 725 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,840 Speaker 4: at as a serious suspect. 726 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 9: Yeah, that was one of the names that was thrown around, 727 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 9: just but I mean if almost anyone name in Weatherford 728 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 9: was thrown around, you know, just to give you an idea. 729 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,359 Speaker 9: The initial part of it was just getting the case 730 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 9: report and sifting through all that, and then we we 731 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 9: does we sometimes right around that same time period, we 732 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,800 Speaker 9: got with our property. So it was almost kind of 733 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 9: kind of similar to records, is like going back to 734 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 9: property and be like, hey, here's this case number. Why 735 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 9: do we still have that's associated with this case, and 736 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:09,840 Speaker 9: what does that evidence look like. 737 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,240 Speaker 4: In those years before nineteen eighty three, law enforcement needed 738 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 4: a bloodstain the size of a nickel in order to 739 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:25,399 Speaker 4: extract enough DNA to even consider scientific profiling, and even 740 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 4: at that large, DNA databases like we see today were 741 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 4: in the earliest stages of development. In addition, the first 742 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 4: FBI crime lab to assist in forensic profiling wasn't opened 743 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 4: until nineteen eighty eight. So the tools to catch killers 744 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 4: in nineteen eighty three were extremely limited. We're talking fingerprints 745 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 4: and trace evidence, witness statements, and interviewing suspects. Of course, 746 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 4: when you had a case such as this one where 747 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 4: the victims were shot to, ballistics could help. Yet ballistics 748 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 4: were only as good as having both parts, the gun 749 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 4: and the bullet. 750 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 9: Like you said in nineteen eighty three, I don't know 751 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,239 Speaker 9: that anyone's thinking about DNA, but but maybe we have 752 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 9: something in here that we can resubmit. 753 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,799 Speaker 4: This has become one of my big questions in the case. 754 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 4: Has law enforcement used modern technology extracted any DNA from 755 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 4: the available evidence and sent it out to all the 756 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 4: databases that exist today. 757 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,399 Speaker 9: I can't go into into great detail about what those 758 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,839 Speaker 9: things are. I can tell you that things were resubmitted. 759 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 9: We we we did. We took a close look at 760 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 9: at all those all those things. You know what still 761 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,800 Speaker 9: exists today? Out of those things, what can we potentially 762 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 9: help give us a lead? 763 00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 4: Which brings me to several utterly vital questions I need 764 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:05,480 Speaker 4: to chase down immediately. Why in the hell haven't some 765 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:10,319 Speaker 4: of those items been resubmitted? Where are they? And who 766 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 4: is responsible? For maintaining the chain of custody for the evidence. 767 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:24,120 Speaker 4: Please check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with 768 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,280 Speaker 4: m William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing 769 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,399 Speaker 4: person and cold case murder each week. Wherever you get 770 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 4: your favorite shows coming up In the next episode of Paper. 771 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,720 Speaker 9: Ghosts, bos to me, it was a premeditated murderer. 772 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:44,720 Speaker 3: It was planned. 773 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 7: First, I thought it was that they weren't the wrong 774 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 7: place at the wrong comic because they get a lot 775 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,279 Speaker 7: of blood dealing right there. 776 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 6: It was a dark town and boy, if you ever 777 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 6: if you ever knew a little bit, it's just a 778 00:48:59,160 --> 00:48:59,879 Speaker 6: scary town. 779 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,480 Speaker 9: It is a lot of us kids whore hound drugs. 780 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 9: But what happens They pulled me in for murder. 781 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 4: For who's murder for those kids. 782 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 3: The word is that the man that owns the town 783 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 3: and knew he owned a sausage plan or a processing plant. 784 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,280 Speaker 5: That somehow he was involved. 785 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,680 Speaker 7: Then again they're talking at that time about the law 786 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:27,920 Speaker 7: being involved. 787 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,879 Speaker 4: Paper Ghost Season five is written and executive produced by 788 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:43,560 Speaker 4: me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive producer 789 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,520 Speaker 4: Catherine Law. Production by tac Boom Productions, Audio mastering and 790 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 4: mixing by Brandon Dicker. The series theme number four four 791 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 4: to two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and 792 00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:58,680 Speaker 4: Tom Mooney.