WEBVTT - Parallels PT 2 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:05.000 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:07.960 I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:09.559 writing about true crime. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.800 And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.400 worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.799 Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.720 compelling true crimes. 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.239 And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:26.040 new insights to old mysteries. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.639 Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.360 cases through a twenty first century lens. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.760 Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:01:00.240 This is buried Bones. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.759 Hey Paul, Hey Kate, you know you've got this case. 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:08.560 I'm really interested to hear this other case. It might 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:09.680 or might not be related. 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.360 We'll wrap up some stuff with Nancy first and I'll 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:14.880 give you a recap, and then we'll get into the 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.840 other case and we'll see where we go here. So, 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.040 just to recap for the last episode, we are in 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:27.319 nineteen seventy Sacramento and twenty eight year old Nancy beIN 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:32.440 Alac was murdered and sexually assaulted in her apartment. The 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:34.920 front door was locked. There doesn't seem to be any theft, 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.520 any disturbance in anywhere in the apartment except for in 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:44.160 the bedroom. Nancy is face down, thirty stab wounds, very 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.960 very violent. They collect evidence, including these weird finger coverings 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.160 that the offender apparently made. Now they're going to start 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.160 really trying to get the timeline down. We have some 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:57.400 ear witnesses who say somewhere in the one am to 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.600 two am range they heard different kinds of noises. We 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:02.760 have no idea if any of it has to do 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.360 with Nancy, and so now you know, we're at a 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:07.640 little bit of a loss. As they moved forward, Did 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.320 I miss anything? Is there anything that I didn't include? Paul? 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.280 You know, the one thing that I think stands out 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.480 is the prowler that had been seen. So they have 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.400 the composite of that prowler, but that may or may 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.079 not be the person responsible for Nancy's homicide. 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.960 Exactly right, So let's continue. They talk to a lot 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.720 of people, including of course her fiance, Ferris, who is 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:32.000 the chief public defender. And I read an obituary of 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:35.320 him and he just seems like this legend in that area, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.200 so that was really interesting. He tells police that he 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:42.720 last saw Nancy Sunday night, so presumably not long before 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.160 she was killed. So aside from the offender, if he 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.720 is not the offender. Aside from the offender, it seems 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:49.880 like her fiance is the last one to have seen 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:54.320 her so earlier in the day. They went from Nancy's hometown, 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.760 Grass Valley, which is about an hour outside of Sacramento, 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.359 where they hung out with her mom, and they went 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.760 back to Sacramento. They got dinner, Ferris brought Nancy to 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:08.079 her apartment. They spent some time together, which could have 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.919 meant sex. I don't have a lot of details here, 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.240 but he did not stay the night. He left around 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.520 one thirty and then he went back home. So he 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:22.080 says when he left Nancy's apartment, she was asleep in 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.880 bed and wearing just her underwear, which would have been 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.960 you know, her way. He said that her sliding glass 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:33.360 door is where he was sure the entry was made. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.600 And I'll tell you why in a minute. Looking for patterns. 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:38.320 But what do you think so far? You know, I mean, 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.160 the fiance nobody saw him coming or going. He was 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.920 around all the time, you know, I don't know if 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.600 police buy his story or not. It seems feasible for 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:47.160 a Sunday. 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.160 Well, yeah, I think you know, of course, he has 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.200 to be looked at pretty hard because he's putting himself 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.520 in her apartment almost in the middle of what the 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.400 ear witnesses are saying when they hear, you know, the 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.920 baby cry, hurried footsteps, somebody driving out of the parking 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:05.920 lot at a I'm assuming a high rate of speed, 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.560 you know. So it's like, okay, so what is going 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.520 on here with him? We see this all the time. 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.359 It's entirely possible. He's telling absolute truth, you know. It 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.400 just so happens that once he left, the offender came 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.839 in and then is, for whatever reason, attacking Nancy. 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.000 The interesting part of the entry is when we talk 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.120 about Nancy's sliding glass door. You know, the droplets were there, 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.560 there was a trail of blood that dropped down to 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.640 the first floor, the ground floor, the boat shoe that 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.240 was there, the print, and then the trail off to 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:43.520 the parking lot. So he said that nancy sliding glass 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:47.479 door when he left was slightly open, okay, And the 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.760 reason was she had a cat and that way the 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.320 cat could go in and out of the apartment. So 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.000 the police find this out from Ferris, and of course 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:57.359 they're not crossing him off the list just yet. But 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.120 when we're talking about access, they're saying, okay, well that 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.120 that seems to make sense. But they now feel pretty certain. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:05.719 And this is what I want to know from you too, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:11.840 that whomever killed Nancy knew this, knew her habit, knew 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.599 that this would be accessible at some point, and was 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:15.480 potentially watching. 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:17.919 You know, my question would be, well, what's the visibility 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.520 of that sliding door, Let's say, from somebody who is 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.159 just kind of wandering the grounds. You know, at least 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.840 with the photo of the apartment complex, I could kind 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.520 of see that the top of like I'm assuming windows 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:32.520 or sliding doors, So it's possible you have a prowler 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.760 who happens to notice, oh there's an there's an opening. 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.920 How does the prowler get up to the second floor. 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.040 Is there something that this this person could climb up 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:45.719 to get onto the balcony to walk through this open 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.440 sliding door. That's one thing I'd be taking a look at. 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.000 And this is where it's just trying to trying to determine, 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.359 like you had brought up all this, did the offender 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.840 have pre existing knowledge of Nancy's habit and knew that 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.960 sliding door would be unlocked and open. And is this 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:06.359 something that's because the offender has, you know, a personal 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.120 connection to Nancy or is this a stranger who is 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.480 doing surveillance ahead of time and happens to notice this. 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.080 Yeah? Absolutely, I think And I had forgotten to mention 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.400 this in my recap. Investigators think that the offender climbed 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.800 up that fence. So if you look at that photo again, 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.880 there's a fence, and that once he got on the fence, 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:28.920 he was able to sort of pull himself over the 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.120 railing onto her balcony. The question would be would he 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:33.240 be able to see whether or not she was leaving 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.280 this door open and letting the cat in and out. 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:37.960 I think he could, you know, based on what I'm 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.599 seeing from this this photo of the apartment complex. Now, Yeah, 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.800 to climb up that fence and to get up over 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:47.400 that balcony, I mean there's some physical agility here. Yeah, 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.320 you know, so that's that would be something you know, 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.800 as I'm eballing, you know, suspects, you know, does this 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.479 guy look like he's physically capable of getting up into 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.760 Nancy's apartment as well? As being able to jump down 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.599 and run away. You know, I know I might be 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.480 able to do that today, but I would probably struggle 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:10.800 at my age, right. So that's just an interesting observation, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.360 is that the physicality he's demonstrating to get in and 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:14.320 out of her apartment. 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:19.000 Yes, Glenn Campbell, as in our sketch, the prowler would 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.280 have been able to do something like that. We'll see 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:27.760 how it goes. Okay, so faris the fiance doesn't have 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.720 an alibi for that evening. She says alibi basically. Then 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.000 she goes home. He goes home, and that's it. He's 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.160 very cooperative with the police. He says, come search my house, 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.080 take all my clothing, look for anything you want. He 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:43.160 takes that light detector. He even says, take some of 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.080 my blood. You know. They compare it against the blood 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.800 they found at the scene, and he's ultimately ruled out 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:49.840 as a suspect. I don't know what that means. I 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.400 don't know if they look at the blood and he's 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.200 got an obvious different blood type and that is ruling 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.840 him out, and that's it. Is that going to be enough, 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.880 I guess in the nineteen seventies to rule somebody out right. 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.240 Well, that's you know, that really was the power of 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.240 the ABO testing was to exclude. And so under the 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:09.600 circumstances of the crime scene, it sounds like they were 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.400 confident that the blood trail or the blood that was 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:15.600 left behind, came from the offender, and it's a different 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.480 blood type than the fiance, and so they can say, well, 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.440 he's not the one that's dripping blood and running off, 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.800 so he's likely as not her killer. Now is that 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.440 an absolute elimination of his involvement in the case. You'll 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.520 probably hit me some detail down in a few minutes. 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.160 That probably puts more suspicion on him, But right now 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:36.959 I would say it sounds like he's excluded. 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.920 Yeah, I think so, No, no more suspicion. Ferris goes 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.080 on to live until eighty four, and as a legend 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:48.360 in defense, they eventually rule out the fiance. The police 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:51.480 began interviewing the people closest to her family and friends, 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.640 especially those with fresh injuries. That makes sense, you know, 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:58.880 with the stabbing. So then they go to Nancy's father. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.199 So his name's braun In, and when police interview him, 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:04.440 he has a bandage on his hand that he says 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.280 is the result of a workplace accident. But he says, 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:10.800 just so you know, Nancy and I have never had 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.800 a great relationship. He was abusive towards Nancy's mother in 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.079 the past, but he's also ruled out as a suspect, 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.560 and there's just not enough solid evidence tying him to 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.280 the daughter's murder. So the wound on the hand, I know, 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.040 is valid. And I guess that's just one little thing 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:29.760 that they're going to be looking at and saying, oh, 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:31.960 you've got these, you know, fresh wounds. Let's talk about 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.000 it in your past relationship with her? 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.880 No, you know, but this is this is just investigation 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.840 one oh one. They are checking the boxes, looking at 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.720 family friends, you know, the fiance and when something like 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.720 the a fresh wound on dad's hand, you know that's 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:49.880 going to stand out. They're going, oh, you know, that 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:53.960 is consistent with our offender having been cut. But of 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.240 course we know, just like what he explained is there's 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:57.920 innocent explanations for that as well. 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.120 Mm hmm. Okay, well, let's see, We've got a couple 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.600 of other people that I need to run by you. 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.080 This might be a dead end, but here it goes. 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.360 There's a guy named Barry Segal. He is a name 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:14.200 dropped as a person of interest from a Sacramento Bee article, 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.520 which is interesting October twenty ninth, which is just days 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:19.959 after Nancy's murder. So this is one of the early 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.360 people on their suspect list. He spent more than eight 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.360 years in prison during the nineteen sixties with the second 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.240 degree murder of his landlady. When he's in prison, he 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:36.360 befriends a supervising deputy district attorney, Vincent Rigar. I have 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:42.080 no idea why or how, but when the killer is paroled, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.440 the deputy assistant attorney offered him a place to stay. 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:51.000 And almost immediately after Nancy's murder, the sheriff tries to 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.360 suggest that Sagall might have been involved with this, and 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.160 it sounds like it's just simply because he was a 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:59.800 criminal and had killed a woman and that was basically. 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:01.840 But all of these people are being pulled into this 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.800 case because the police are really desperate, obviously to try 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:05.800 to find out who did this. 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.040 Yeah, you know, and this is part of just starting 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:13.880 to assess characteristics of your offender and what suspect pool 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.480 that offender would be found in. And you know, of course, 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.360 with a let's say, sexually motivated homicide, you're looking at 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.560 individuals that have a past that includes that type of crime. 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.160 And it sounds like this Barry Cigal, it was somebody 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:32.760 that you know, the DA's office was aware of and 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.200 had been released. So so Matt, you have to have 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:37.280 to look at him for sure. 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.120 But there are different categories, right, So peeping Tom would 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.480 be the beginning of being a sexual predator, right, and 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:47.920 then what are the beginnings of the serial killer aside 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.120 from you know, we've talked about hurting animals and having 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.520 problems in childhood. I know there are these different tiers, 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:55.760 but they're categories too, yep. 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.600 But it's not it's not hard and fast, you know. 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.520 And when you take a look, typically when you start 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.000 looking at offenders that are breaking into houses, and this 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.200 was a much more common from a from a serial 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.199 predator standpoint, much more common back in the seventies than 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:14.880 today because of technology and surveillance and dead bolts and 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.400 all that. But usually it's these barriers to a fence. 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.800 You mentioned the peeping Tom. Well, I like to, you know, 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.400 talk initially to people and say, think about walking in 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:29.000 your neighborhood and you accidentally walk on your neighbor's front lawn, 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.120 you get nervous. It's like, oh no, you know, that's 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:37.559 kind of not socially acceptable. And so imagine taking that 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.400 to the point where now you're walking up all the 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.640 way across the lawn to look into your neighbor's house 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:48.040 through a window. You know you've crossed a certain social 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.120 barrier to do that. Now you're breaking into houses when 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.280 nobody's home. Then you're breaking into houses when somebody's home. 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:57.880 And it's when you start to see that where now 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.840 you have the like the cat burglar spect where they're 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:05.200 going into how occupied houses. That is a predictor of 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:08.640 being a very dangerous offender because they are just one 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.199 step away from going hands on with a person. So 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.719 that's one kind of prototypical evolution. That's Joseph DiAngelo, that's 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.680 the Golden State killer. But they don't necessarily follow that 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:26.240 pattern in the same way. It varies from person to person. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.679 And then you brought up the serial killer triad, the 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.560 bed wetting, the animal cruelty, the fire setting, and then 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:34.720 the reality is the only one I put really any 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.600 weight on is the animal cruelty, because if you're willing 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:42.560 to inflict violence on a creature, You're one step away 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:43.840 from doing that to a person. 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:46.760 You know. There is a story that I thought about you, 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.280 and I heard there's a story happening not in Austin, 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.960 in the Austin area about a high school club where, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:56.480 you know, I don't know if it was a four 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.360 h but students were raising animals and they caught a 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.719 young woman, a teenager, poisoning and killing a goat from 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.840 her competitor. And I just thought, oh my god, I mean, 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.600 that's unbelievable. I don't remember ultimately what happened to her, 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.000 if she was eighteen or you know, whatever happened, but 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.520 to just brazenly be willing to do that to a goat, 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.000 you know, just for a contest. I mean, I'm real. 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.040 Once I trained a couple of the prosecutors in my 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.520 former office. You know, they would be presented cases of 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.600 you know, your teenage boys doing bad things to cats 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.520 and dogs, and so they would bring me the details, 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.240 you know, and so I'm assessing, going, yeah, this is 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.440 a predictor, this is a person that is likely going 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.560 to hurt somebody down the road, and we need to 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.640 intercede now to try to prevent that person from that 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.360 boy from doing that in the future, and then that's 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.200 when it's you know, mandated psychological counseling, et cetera. 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:54.720 Now we're going to put a pause in Nancy's case 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.400 because we have another case and police are not yet 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.320 able to determine whether these cases related, but they seem 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.480 very similar. So this is about a woman named Judith 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.520 hawk Aary. She's in Sacramento, and she is murdered six 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.360 months before Nancy and I have pictures around this too. 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.520 Now you know, you can imagine this is a twenty 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.640 three year old nurse. She is also engaged. They look 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.320 fairly similar. I know you don't put a ton of 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:23.200 weight on that, and I'll show you a picture of 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:28.560 Judy in a second, but they are struck by the similarities. Here, 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:30.320 let me tell you a little bit about Judy and 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.480 then we'll look at some photos. So she is, as 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.720 I said, twenty three years old, she's engaged, she's in 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.160 the workforce. They live within one block of each other, 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.200 these two women. So go to your photos. I told 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:45.560 you there are a lot of photos with this one. 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.920 This is what happens when we dip into the nineteen seventies. 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.560 This photos galore. If you look on your page seven, 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:56.400 there's a picture of Judy sixties hair. We're barely in 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.680 the nineteen seventies, so she's got the high hair again. 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.320 Love it, you know, if you find it valuable to 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:03.280 compare the way they both look and you know all 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.160 of that. But the photo of Nancy's on. 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.800 Page one, well, you know Nancy and Judiths. You know, 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.320 they do have a somewhat similar look. Both appear to 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:16.080 be brunettes, classic nineteen sixties kind of look about them. 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.440 I think it's you know, the fact that you do 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:23.160 have them living so close, and that Judith, you know, 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.720 six months prior, had been killed. You have to look 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.640 at the possibility that these cases are related. Now, I'd 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.080 like to know more details about what happened in Judas case. 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.800 Okay, look on the next page, because I just want 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:35.840 you to see the distance with their apartments. I mean, 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:37.520 I told you a block of block's a block. But 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.880 if you look on page your page eight, you'll see 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.600 Nancy's apartment in judish apartment. Is that a coincidence? I mean, 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:46.920 how is that? I don't know there are such things 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:47.720 as coincidences. 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.960 I guess yes, I mean, it absolutely could be a coincidence. However, 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.520 you have to put some weight on that proximity. You know, 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.760 these offenders, you know, when they're out prowling, they get 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.680 comfortable with a ser in geographic location, you can go 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.920 into any neighborhood and find a victim. So it's possible 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.359 this could be a watering hole. This is what I were. 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.919 A predator is just comfortable in this particular area of 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.880 town for one reason or another, and has killed two 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.280 women six months apart in that same area. But I've 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.640 just seen it enough to where it's also possible these 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.600 are two completely separate cases and just coincidentally happened to 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.879 be in the same part of the area of town. 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:33.439 Yeah. Absolutely, Okay, here are the circumstances with Judy. So 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.000 it is eleven thirty pm on the night of March 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:41.280 nineteen seventy, about six months before Nancy goes missing. Judy 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.000 is a nurse. She leaves her shift at the hospital 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.680 and she tells Raymond, I'll see you at my apartment 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:50.960 and she starts to head home. So Raymond, her fiance, 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.200 his name's Raymond Willis, he was at her apartment waiting 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.359 there for her, and he said it. It should have 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.560 only taken her ten minutes, so he knew she should 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.000 have been home before midnight. She left at eleven thirty, 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.040 so she doesn't show up, and when she hasn't come 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.359 home by one forty five, he becomes very worried. He 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.440 goes outside. He sees Judy's car parked in the apartment 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.040 complex's parking lot, but she's not there. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:22.200 Okay, so it appears that she drove from the job 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.199 the hospital to her apartment complex but never makes it 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:27.520 up to her residence. 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.280 Yes, okay, I don't know when he calls the police yet, 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.280 but he said that the car's doors were all unlocked, 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.520 the keys were on the floorboard, and a few buttons 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.639 from the coat that she was wearing seemed to be 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.239 yanked off, and they were in the back seat as 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.159 if there had been a struggle between Judy and we 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.879 presume to be the offender. No blood in the car. 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.679 There were strips of towel in the back seat which 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.480 didn't belong to Judy, and so you know, obviously none 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.520 of this sounds very good, and we have some speculation 0:18:58.680 --> 0:18:59.159 coming up. 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.919 Well, sounds like, you know, the offender could have been 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.760 inside judas vehicle out there at the hospital, and you know, 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:09.959 she gets in and at a certain point the offender 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.800 pops up from the rear seat. That's you know, with 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.280 the strips of towel, like, you know, binding material that 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.000 the offender brought with him. And you know, then if 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.600 that's kind of the scenario, and you know, right now, 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:23.440 I'm just kind of doing like a you know, a 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:28.240 little speculation. But if that's the scenario, then Judath isn't 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:30.120 the one that drove the vehicle all the way back 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:32.600 to the you know, the parking lot. The offender likely 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.000 did that once he got her under control inside her 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:35.640 own vehicle. 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:43.399 So interesting, Okay, so here's where we may see the 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.720 man we may not. Her co workers. Judy's coworkers later 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.080 say that a man with red hair had stopped by 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:52.840 the hospital earlier in the day asking for Judith her 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:56.119 real name. But there are three Judiths at that place 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:58.280 at the time, and so we don't know which Judith 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.040 he was looking for, and it doesn't sound like he 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:04.320 connected with any of them, so that sort of went 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.919 a little cold. There was witness that reported seeing a 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:12.119 brown car turn into her apartment's parking lot around the 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:15.399 time that Judy would have arrived home. So between eleven 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.280 thirty and twelve, another person said they saw a dark 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:22.040 colored car driving so fast and recklessly from the area 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:27.119 that it nearly sideswiped their vehicle, and neither car is 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.919 ever identified. So I presume what that means, Paul is 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:34.320 the first witness, if it's connected to this case, is 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.960 seeing the guy pull into the parking lot. Because they're 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:40.360 not saying Judy's car is pulling into the parking lot. 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.359 They're saying a brown car pulls into the parking lot 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:45.560 around the time she got home, and then there's another 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.320 car that leaves very quickly and recklessly. 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:52.400 And so there's a possibility, taking it to consideration those details, 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.879 that Judy could have driven to her parking lot and 0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:59.040 is abducted as soon as she opens the door to 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.600 her vehicle. Under that circumstance, I would expect that there 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:04.680 would be some ear witnesses, because I don't think Judy 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.040 would be very I think should be, you know, pretty loud, 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.280 screaming and trying to fight this guy as he's trying 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:12.840 to get her into his vehicle. 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:17.600 But remember her coat, jacket buttons are in the back seat, 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.000 and those strips of towel are in the back seat. 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:23.119 So do you think he tried to get her in 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:25.800 the back seat first and then there was a struggle 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.320 and he gagged her with these towel strips. I'm not 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:30.199 saying that's what happened. I'm just saying I wonder if 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:31.879 that could have been a possibility too. 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:34.560