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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 4: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, you know you've got this case.

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Speaker 3: I'm really interested to hear this other case. It might

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Speaker 3: or might not be related.

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Speaker 2: We'll wrap up some stuff with Nancy first and I'll

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Speaker 2: give you a recap, and then we'll get into the

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Speaker 2: other case and we'll see where we go here. So,

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Speaker 2: just to recap for the last episode, we are in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy Sacramento and twenty eight year old Nancy beIN

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Speaker 2: Alac was murdered and sexually assaulted in her apartment. The

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Speaker 2: front door was locked. There doesn't seem to be any theft,

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Speaker 2: any disturbance in anywhere in the apartment except for in

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Speaker 2: the bedroom. Nancy is face down, thirty stab wounds, very

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Speaker 2: very violent. They collect evidence, including these weird finger coverings

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Speaker 2: that the offender apparently made. Now they're going to start

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Speaker 2: really trying to get the timeline down. We have some

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Speaker 2: ear witnesses who say somewhere in the one am to

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Speaker 2: two am range they heard different kinds of noises. We

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Speaker 2: have no idea if any of it has to do

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Speaker 2: with Nancy, and so now you know, we're at a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a loss. As they moved forward, Did

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Speaker 2: I miss anything? Is there anything that I didn't include? Paul?

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Speaker 3: You know, the one thing that I think stands out

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Speaker 3: is the prowler that had been seen. So they have

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Speaker 3: the composite of that prowler, but that may or may

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Speaker 3: not be the person responsible for Nancy's homicide.

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Speaker 2: Exactly right, So let's continue. They talk to a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, including of course her fiance, Ferris, who is

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Speaker 2: the chief public defender. And I read an obituary of

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Speaker 2: him and he just seems like this legend in that area,

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Speaker 2: so that was really interesting. He tells police that he

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Speaker 2: last saw Nancy Sunday night, so presumably not long before

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Speaker 2: she was killed. So aside from the offender, if he

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Speaker 2: is not the offender. Aside from the offender, it seems

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Speaker 2: like her fiance is the last one to have seen

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Speaker 2: her so earlier in the day. They went from Nancy's hometown,

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Speaker 2: Grass Valley, which is about an hour outside of Sacramento,

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Speaker 2: where they hung out with her mom, and they went

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Speaker 2: back to Sacramento. They got dinner, Ferris brought Nancy to

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Speaker 2: her apartment. They spent some time together, which could have

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Speaker 2: meant sex. I don't have a lot of details here,

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Speaker 2: but he did not stay the night. He left around

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Speaker 2: one thirty and then he went back home. So he

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Speaker 2: says when he left Nancy's apartment, she was asleep in

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Speaker 2: bed and wearing just her underwear, which would have been

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Speaker 2: you know, her way. He said that her sliding glass

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Speaker 2: door is where he was sure the entry was made.

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why in a minute. Looking for patterns.

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Speaker 2: But what do you think so far? You know, I mean,

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Speaker 2: the fiance nobody saw him coming or going. He was

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Speaker 2: around all the time, you know, I don't know if

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Speaker 2: police buy his story or not. It seems feasible for

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Speaker 2: a Sunday.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I think you know, of course, he has

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Speaker 3: to be looked at pretty hard because he's putting himself

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Speaker 3: in her apartment almost in the middle of what the

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Speaker 3: ear witnesses are saying when they hear, you know, the

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Speaker 3: baby cry, hurried footsteps, somebody driving out of the parking

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Speaker 3: lot at a I'm assuming a high rate of speed,

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Speaker 3: you know. So it's like, okay, so what is going

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Speaker 3: on here with him? We see this all the time.

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Speaker 3: It's entirely possible. He's telling absolute truth, you know. It

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Speaker 3: just so happens that once he left, the offender came

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Speaker 3: in and then is, for whatever reason, attacking Nancy.

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Speaker 2: The interesting part of the entry is when we talk

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Speaker 2: about Nancy's sliding glass door. You know, the droplets were there,

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Speaker 2: there was a trail of blood that dropped down to

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Speaker 2: the first floor, the ground floor, the boat shoe that

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Speaker 2: was there, the print, and then the trail off to

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Speaker 2: the parking lot. So he said that nancy sliding glass

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Speaker 2: door when he left was slightly open, okay, And the

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Speaker 2: reason was she had a cat and that way the

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Speaker 2: cat could go in and out of the apartment. So

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Speaker 2: the police find this out from Ferris, and of course

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Speaker 2: they're not crossing him off the list just yet. But

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about access, they're saying, okay, well that

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Speaker 2: that seems to make sense. But they now feel pretty certain.

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Speaker 2: And this is what I want to know from you too,

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Speaker 2: that whomever killed Nancy knew this, knew her habit, knew

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Speaker 2: that this would be accessible at some point, and was

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Speaker 2: potentially watching.

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Speaker 3: You know, my question would be, well, what's the visibility

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Speaker 3: of that sliding door, Let's say, from somebody who is

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Speaker 3: just kind of wandering the grounds. You know, at least

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Speaker 3: with the photo of the apartment complex, I could kind

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Speaker 3: of see that the top of like I'm assuming windows

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Speaker 3: or sliding doors, So it's possible you have a prowler

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Speaker 3: who happens to notice, oh there's an there's an opening.

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Speaker 3: How does the prowler get up to the second floor.

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Speaker 3: Is there something that this this person could climb up

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Speaker 3: to get onto the balcony to walk through this open

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Speaker 3: sliding door. That's one thing I'd be taking a look at.

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Speaker 3: And this is where it's just trying to trying to determine,

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Speaker 3: like you had brought up all this, did the offender

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Speaker 3: have pre existing knowledge of Nancy's habit and knew that

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Speaker 3: sliding door would be unlocked and open. And is this

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Speaker 3: something that's because the offender has, you know, a personal

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Speaker 3: connection to Nancy or is this a stranger who is

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Speaker 3: doing surveillance ahead of time and happens to notice this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I think And I had forgotten to mention

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Speaker 2: this in my recap. Investigators think that the offender climbed

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Speaker 2: up that fence. So if you look at that photo again,

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Speaker 2: there's a fence, and that once he got on the fence,

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Speaker 2: he was able to sort of pull himself over the

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Speaker 2: railing onto her balcony. The question would be would he

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Speaker 2: be able to see whether or not she was leaving

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Speaker 2: this door open and letting the cat in and out.

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Speaker 3: I think he could, you know, based on what I'm

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Speaker 3: seeing from this this photo of the apartment complex. Now, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: to climb up that fence and to get up over

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Speaker 3: that balcony, I mean there's some physical agility here. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, so that's that would be something you know,

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Speaker 3: as I'm eballing, you know, suspects, you know, does this

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Speaker 3: guy look like he's physically capable of getting up into

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Speaker 3: Nancy's apartment as well? As being able to jump down

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Speaker 3: and run away. You know, I know I might be

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Speaker 3: able to do that today, but I would probably struggle

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Speaker 3: at my age, right. So that's just an interesting observation,

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Speaker 3: is that the physicality he's demonstrating to get in and

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Speaker 3: out of her apartment.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Glenn Campbell, as in our sketch, the prowler would

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Speaker 2: have been able to do something like that. We'll see

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Speaker 2: how it goes. Okay, so faris the fiance doesn't have

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Speaker 2: an alibi for that evening. She says alibi basically. Then

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Speaker 2: she goes home. He goes home, and that's it. He's

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Speaker 2: very cooperative with the police. He says, come search my house,

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Speaker 2: take all my clothing, look for anything you want. He

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Speaker 2: takes that light detector. He even says, take some of

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Speaker 2: my blood. You know. They compare it against the blood

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Speaker 2: they found at the scene, and he's ultimately ruled out

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Speaker 2: as a suspect. I don't know what that means. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if they look at the blood and he's

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Speaker 2: got an obvious different blood type and that is ruling

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Speaker 2: him out, and that's it. Is that going to be enough,

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Speaker 2: I guess in the nineteen seventies to rule somebody out right.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's you know, that really was the power of

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Speaker 3: the ABO testing was to exclude. And so under the

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Speaker 3: circumstances of the crime scene, it sounds like they were

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Speaker 3: confident that the blood trail or the blood that was

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Speaker 3: left behind, came from the offender, and it's a different

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Speaker 3: blood type than the fiance, and so they can say, well,

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Speaker 3: he's not the one that's dripping blood and running off,

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Speaker 3: so he's likely as not her killer. Now is that

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Speaker 3: an absolute elimination of his involvement in the case. You'll

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Speaker 3: probably hit me some detail down in a few minutes.

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Speaker 3: That probably puts more suspicion on him, But right now

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Speaker 3: I would say it sounds like he's excluded.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, No, no more suspicion. Ferris goes

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Speaker 2: on to live until eighty four, and as a legend

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Speaker 2: in defense, they eventually rule out the fiance. The police

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Speaker 2: began interviewing the people closest to her family and friends,

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Speaker 2: especially those with fresh injuries. That makes sense, you know,

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Speaker 2: with the stabbing. So then they go to Nancy's father.

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Speaker 2: So his name's braun In, and when police interview him,

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Speaker 2: he has a bandage on his hand that he says

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Speaker 2: is the result of a workplace accident. But he says,

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Speaker 2: just so you know, Nancy and I have never had

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Speaker 2: a great relationship. He was abusive towards Nancy's mother in

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Speaker 2: the past, but he's also ruled out as a suspect,

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Speaker 2: and there's just not enough solid evidence tying him to

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Speaker 2: the daughter's murder. So the wound on the hand, I know,

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Speaker 2: is valid. And I guess that's just one little thing

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Speaker 2: that they're going to be looking at and saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: you've got these, you know, fresh wounds. Let's talk about

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Speaker 2: it in your past relationship with her?

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Speaker 3: No, you know, but this is this is just investigation

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Speaker 3: one oh one. They are checking the boxes, looking at

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Speaker 3: family friends, you know, the fiance and when something like

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Speaker 3: the a fresh wound on dad's hand, you know that's

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Speaker 3: going to stand out. They're going, oh, you know, that

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Speaker 3: is consistent with our offender having been cut. But of

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Speaker 3: course we know, just like what he explained is there's

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Speaker 3: innocent explanations for that as well.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Okay, well, let's see, We've got a couple

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Speaker 2: of other people that I need to run by you.

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Speaker 2: This might be a dead end, but here it goes.

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Speaker 2: There's a guy named Barry Segal. He is a name

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Speaker 2: dropped as a person of interest from a Sacramento Bee article,

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Speaker 2: which is interesting October twenty ninth, which is just days

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Speaker 2: after Nancy's murder. So this is one of the early

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Speaker 2: people on their suspect list. He spent more than eight

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Speaker 2: years in prison during the nineteen sixties with the second

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Speaker 2: degree murder of his landlady. When he's in prison, he

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Speaker 2: befriends a supervising deputy district attorney, Vincent Rigar. I have

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Speaker 2: no idea why or how, but when the killer is paroled,

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Speaker 2: the deputy assistant attorney offered him a place to stay.

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Speaker 2: And almost immediately after Nancy's murder, the sheriff tries to

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Speaker 2: suggest that Sagall might have been involved with this, and

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Speaker 2: it sounds like it's just simply because he was a

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Speaker 2: criminal and had killed a woman and that was basically.

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Speaker 2: But all of these people are being pulled into this

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Speaker 2: case because the police are really desperate, obviously to try

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Speaker 2: to find out who did this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and this is part of just starting

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Speaker 3: to assess characteristics of your offender and what suspect pool

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Speaker 3: that offender would be found in. And you know, of course,

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Speaker 3: with a let's say, sexually motivated homicide, you're looking at

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Speaker 3: individuals that have a past that includes that type of crime.

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Speaker 3: And it sounds like this Barry Cigal, it was somebody

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Speaker 3: that you know, the DA's office was aware of and

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Speaker 3: had been released. So so Matt, you have to have

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Speaker 3: to look at him for sure.

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Speaker 2: But there are different categories, right, So peeping Tom would

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Speaker 2: be the beginning of being a sexual predator, right, and

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Speaker 2: then what are the beginnings of the serial killer aside

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Speaker 2: from you know, we've talked about hurting animals and having

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Speaker 2: problems in childhood. I know there are these different tiers,

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Speaker 2: but they're categories too, yep.

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Speaker 3: But it's not it's not hard and fast, you know.

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Speaker 3: And when you take a look, typically when you start

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Speaker 3: looking at offenders that are breaking into houses, and this

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Speaker 3: was a much more common from a from a serial

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Speaker 3: predator standpoint, much more common back in the seventies than

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Speaker 3: today because of technology and surveillance and dead bolts and

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Speaker 3: all that. But usually it's these barriers to a fence.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned the peeping Tom. Well, I like to, you know,

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Speaker 3: talk initially to people and say, think about walking in

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Speaker 3: your neighborhood and you accidentally walk on your neighbor's front lawn,

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Speaker 3: you get nervous. It's like, oh no, you know, that's

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Speaker 3: kind of not socially acceptable. And so imagine taking that

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Speaker 3: to the point where now you're walking up all the

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Speaker 3: way across the lawn to look into your neighbor's house

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Speaker 3: through a window. You know you've crossed a certain social

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Speaker 3: barrier to do that. Now you're breaking into houses when

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Speaker 3: nobody's home. Then you're breaking into houses when somebody's home.

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Speaker 3: And it's when you start to see that where now

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Speaker 3: you have the like the cat burglar spect where they're

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Speaker 3: going into how occupied houses. That is a predictor of

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Speaker 3: being a very dangerous offender because they are just one

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Speaker 3: step away from going hands on with a person. So

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Speaker 3: that's one kind of prototypical evolution. That's Joseph DiAngelo, that's

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Speaker 3: the Golden State killer. But they don't necessarily follow that

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Speaker 3: pattern in the same way. It varies from person to person.

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Speaker 3: And then you brought up the serial killer triad, the

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Speaker 3: bed wetting, the animal cruelty, the fire setting, and then

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Speaker 3: the reality is the only one I put really any

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Speaker 3: weight on is the animal cruelty, because if you're willing

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Speaker 3: to inflict violence on a creature, You're one step away

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Speaker 3: from doing that to a person.

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Speaker 2: You know. There is a story that I thought about you,

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Speaker 2: and I heard there's a story happening not in Austin,

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Speaker 2: in the Austin area about a high school club where,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if it was a four

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Speaker 2: h but students were raising animals and they caught a

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Speaker 2: young woman, a teenager, poisoning and killing a goat from

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Speaker 2: her competitor. And I just thought, oh my god, I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's unbelievable. I don't remember ultimately what happened to her,

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Speaker 2: if she was eighteen or you know, whatever happened, but

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Speaker 2: to just brazenly be willing to do that to a goat,

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Speaker 2: you know, just for a contest. I mean, I'm real.

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Speaker 3: Once I trained a couple of the prosecutors in my

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Speaker 3: former office. You know, they would be presented cases of

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Speaker 3: you know, your teenage boys doing bad things to cats

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Speaker 3: and dogs, and so they would bring me the details,

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Speaker 3: you know, and so I'm assessing, going, yeah, this is

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Speaker 3: a predictor, this is a person that is likely going

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Speaker 3: to hurt somebody down the road, and we need to

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Speaker 3: intercede now to try to prevent that person from that

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Speaker 3: boy from doing that in the future, and then that's

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Speaker 3: when it's you know, mandated psychological counseling, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Now we're going to put a pause in Nancy's case

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Speaker 2: because we have another case and police are not yet

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Speaker 2: able to determine whether these cases related, but they seem

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Speaker 2: very similar. So this is about a woman named Judith

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Speaker 2: hawk Aary. She's in Sacramento, and she is murdered six

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Speaker 2: months before Nancy and I have pictures around this too.

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Speaker 2: Now you know, you can imagine this is a twenty

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Speaker 2: three year old nurse. She is also engaged. They look

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Speaker 2: fairly similar. I know you don't put a ton of

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Speaker 2: weight on that, and I'll show you a picture of

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Speaker 2: Judy in a second, but they are struck by the similarities. Here,

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Speaker 2: let me tell you a little bit about Judy and

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Speaker 2: then we'll look at some photos. So she is, as

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Speaker 2: I said, twenty three years old, she's engaged, she's in

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Speaker 2: the workforce. They live within one block of each other,

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Speaker 2: these two women. So go to your photos. I told

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Speaker 2: you there are a lot of photos with this one.

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Speaker 2: This is what happens when we dip into the nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 2: This photos galore. If you look on your page seven,

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Speaker 2: there's a picture of Judy sixties hair. We're barely in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, so she's got the high hair again.

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Speaker 2: Love it, you know, if you find it valuable to

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Speaker 2: compare the way they both look and you know all

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Speaker 2: of that. But the photo of Nancy's on.

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Speaker 3: Page one, well, you know Nancy and Judiths. You know,

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Speaker 3: they do have a somewhat similar look. Both appear to

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Speaker 3: be brunettes, classic nineteen sixties kind of look about them.

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Speaker 3: I think it's you know, the fact that you do

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Speaker 3: have them living so close, and that Judith, you know,

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Speaker 3: six months prior, had been killed. You have to look

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Speaker 3: at the possibility that these cases are related. Now, I'd

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Speaker 3: like to know more details about what happened in Judas case.

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Speaker 2: Okay, look on the next page, because I just want

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Speaker 2: you to see the distance with their apartments. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I told you a block of block's a block. But

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Speaker 2: if you look on page your page eight, you'll see

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Speaker 2: Nancy's apartment in judish apartment. Is that a coincidence? I mean,

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Speaker 2: how is that? I don't know there are such things

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Speaker 2: as coincidences.

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Speaker 3: I guess yes, I mean, it absolutely could be a coincidence. However,

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Speaker 3: you have to put some weight on that proximity. You know,

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Speaker 3: these offenders, you know, when they're out prowling, they get

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Speaker 3: comfortable with a ser in geographic location, you can go

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Speaker 3: into any neighborhood and find a victim. So it's possible

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Speaker 3: this could be a watering hole. This is what I were.

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Speaker 3: A predator is just comfortable in this particular area of

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Speaker 3: town for one reason or another, and has killed two

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Speaker 3: women six months apart in that same area. But I've

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Speaker 3: just seen it enough to where it's also possible these

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Speaker 3: are two completely separate cases and just coincidentally happened to

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Speaker 3: be in the same part of the area of town.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Okay, here are the circumstances with Judy. So

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Speaker 2: it is eleven thirty pm on the night of March

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy, about six months before Nancy goes missing. Judy

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Speaker 2: is a nurse. She leaves her shift at the hospital

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Speaker 2: and she tells Raymond, I'll see you at my apartment

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Speaker 2: and she starts to head home. So Raymond, her fiance,

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Speaker 2: his name's Raymond Willis, he was at her apartment waiting

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Speaker 2: there for her, and he said it. It should have

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Speaker 2: only taken her ten minutes, so he knew she should

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Speaker 2: have been home before midnight. She left at eleven thirty,

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Speaker 2: so she doesn't show up, and when she hasn't come

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Speaker 2: home by one forty five, he becomes very worried. He

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Speaker 2: goes outside. He sees Judy's car parked in the apartment

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Speaker 2: complex's parking lot, but she's not there.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so it appears that she drove from the job

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Speaker 3: the hospital to her apartment complex but never makes it

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Speaker 3: up to her residence.

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, I don't know when he calls the police yet,

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Speaker 2: but he said that the car's doors were all unlocked,

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Speaker 2: the keys were on the floorboard, and a few buttons

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Speaker 2: from the coat that she was wearing seemed to be

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Speaker 2: yanked off, and they were in the back seat as

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Speaker 2: if there had been a struggle between Judy and we

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Speaker 2: presume to be the offender. No blood in the car.

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Speaker 2: There were strips of towel in the back seat which

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Speaker 2: didn't belong to Judy, and so you know, obviously none

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Speaker 2: of this sounds very good, and we have some speculation

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Speaker 2: coming up.

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Speaker 3: Well, sounds like, you know, the offender could have been

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Speaker 3: inside judas vehicle out there at the hospital, and you know,

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Speaker 3: she gets in and at a certain point the offender

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Speaker 3: pops up from the rear seat. That's you know, with

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Speaker 3: the strips of towel, like, you know, binding material that

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Speaker 3: the offender brought with him. And you know, then if

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Speaker 3: that's kind of the scenario, and you know, right now,

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Speaker 3: I'm just kind of doing like a you know, a

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Speaker 3: little speculation. But if that's the scenario, then Judath isn't

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Speaker 3: the one that drove the vehicle all the way back

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Speaker 3: to the you know, the parking lot. The offender likely

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Speaker 3: did that once he got her under control inside her

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Speaker 3: own vehicle.

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Speaker 2: So interesting, Okay, so here's where we may see the

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Speaker 2: man we may not. Her co workers. Judy's coworkers later

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Speaker 2: say that a man with red hair had stopped by

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Speaker 2: the hospital earlier in the day asking for Judith her

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Speaker 2: real name. But there are three Judiths at that place

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Speaker 2: at the time, and so we don't know which Judith

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Speaker 2: he was looking for, and it doesn't sound like he

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Speaker 2: connected with any of them, so that sort of went

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Speaker 2: a little cold. There was witness that reported seeing a

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Speaker 2: brown car turn into her apartment's parking lot around the

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Speaker 2: time that Judy would have arrived home. So between eleven

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Speaker 2: thirty and twelve, another person said they saw a dark

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Speaker 2: colored car driving so fast and recklessly from the area

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Speaker 2: that it nearly sideswiped their vehicle, and neither car is

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Speaker 2: ever identified. So I presume what that means, Paul is

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Speaker 2: the first witness, if it's connected to this case, is

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Speaker 2: seeing the guy pull into the parking lot. Because they're

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Speaker 2: not saying Judy's car is pulling into the parking lot.

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Speaker 2: They're saying a brown car pulls into the parking lot

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Speaker 2: around the time she got home, and then there's another

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Speaker 2: car that leaves very quickly and recklessly.

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Speaker 3: And so there's a possibility, taking it to consideration those details,

387
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Speaker 3: that Judy could have driven to her parking lot and

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Speaker 3: is abducted as soon as she opens the door to

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Speaker 3: her vehicle. Under that circumstance, I would expect that there

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Speaker 3: would be some ear witnesses, because I don't think Judy

391
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Speaker 3: would be very I think should be, you know, pretty loud,

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Speaker 3: screaming and trying to fight this guy as he's trying

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Speaker 3: to get her into his vehicle.

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Speaker 2: But remember her coat, jacket buttons are in the back seat,

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Speaker 2: and those strips of towel are in the back seat.

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Speaker 2: So do you think he tried to get her in

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Speaker 2: the back seat first and then there was a struggle

398
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Speaker 2: and he gagged her with these towel strips. I'm not

399
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Speaker 2: saying that's what happened. I'm just saying I wonder if

400
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Speaker 2: that could have been a possibility too.

401
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Speaker 3: That's a big chance it is, you know, and that

402
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 3: kind of goes back to my initial speculation that he's

403
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Speaker 3: you know, you have an offender lying in wait inside

404
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Speaker 3: her own vehicle. This could have been a tandem, you know,

405
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Speaker 3: where he gets her under control, and then you have

406
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Speaker 3: another offender that's that's driving a vehicle. And now you

407
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Speaker 3: have let's say two offenders that are the ones that

408
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 3: are abducting Judith and so at her apartment. You know,

409
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Speaker 3: why why let her get all the way to her

410
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Speaker 3: apartment if your plan is is to attack her initially

411
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Speaker 3: at the hospital?

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, let's keep going. Okay, no solid leads. They

413
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Speaker 2: are searching, searching. We still don't know that Nancy is

414
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Speaker 2: going to be a victim. That's several months away. But

415
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Speaker 2: about a month and a half ish later into April

416
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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two, hikers like always hikers or the bottle

417
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Speaker 2: collectors or kids discover Judy's body. It's in a shallow

418
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Speaker 2: grave near an abandoned mind shaft series of abandoned mind shafts,

419
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Speaker 2: about fifty miles from Sacramento. It's a long way from

420
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Speaker 2: her apartment. So that's the next photo. So page nine

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Speaker 2: is the photo of the shallow grave that looks so

422
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Speaker 2: shallow to me. It looks pretty deep.

423
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Speaker 3: It's hard the perspective of this photo. It's a black

424
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Speaker 3: and white photo, and it's showing the grave in front,

425
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Speaker 3: in the front of the foreground of the photo, and

426
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Speaker 3: then you have what appear to be two detectives standing

427
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Speaker 3: looking down into it. So obviously Judy's body has been

428
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Speaker 3: collected at the point. But the grave itself, that's I mean,

429
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Speaker 3: that's down several feet, you know. It's not like a

430
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Speaker 3: cemetery grave, you know, but most certainly relative to my

431
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 3: experience with shallow graves usually that's like eighteen inches, you know,

432
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 3: and part of the victim is sticking up out of

433
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 3: the ground. This looks like it's possible that she could

434
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 3: have been completely out of sight because it looks like

435
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 3: it's deep enough.

436
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 2: I wonder what the mind shafts If this was doug already,

437
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 2: it's just some hole. Maybe machinery had been removed or something,

438
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: and this was something I can't see. Sure this guy

439
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 2: digging that? I mean, boy, when I think shallow grave,

440
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: I think just enough to cover up a body. Well,

441
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 2: let me tell you what they find. Okay, they find

442
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,239
Speaker 2: her body, and here's what the medical examiner says. She

443
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 2: was brutally beaten. She was sexually assaulted, she was bludgeoned.

444
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: They don't know with what she was Then she was

445
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 2: also strangled with her own nylon stockings. So he put

446
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: her in a large canvas that was buried. Now they say,

447
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: here two feet deep. You're right, the perspective is wonky

448
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 2: on this. Then two feet That's not two feet when

449
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: I see But anyway, So they also find more of

450
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: those towel strips like the ones found in her car,

451
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: so they think that he used those to gag Judy.

452
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: They also find a gray sweatshirt that they believe belonged

453
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: to her killer, probably because it must have been buried

454
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: with her, and even trace the canvas bag to a

455
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: company that produced them specifically for the San Juan Unified

456
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: School District. In Sacramento County, which seems like a specific clue.

457
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 2: So what do you think about that? I mean, does

458
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 2: it sound like somebody who is the same kind of

459
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 2: killer as the person who ends up killing Nancy? Also

460
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 2: totally different.

461
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 3: It is different in terms of the mo you know,

462
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 3: you've got an abduction sexual assault on the side, and

463
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 3: you know, hiding the body fifty miles away than you

464
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: have with Nancy. Of course, you have the offender going

465
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 3: in and having her. You know, there's some planning going

466
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 3: on here with with Judith in terms of the towel strips,

467
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 3: you know, so that's that's kind of interesting from Okay,

468
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 3: the offender is deciding to use the towel strips, you know,

469
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 3: for for binding. Maybe it possibly a ligature or a

470
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 3: gig the canvas bag. Coming back to San Juan School District,

471
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 3: you know, that's where Okay, who all would have access

472
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 3: to these bags? You know? Is this something that you know,

473
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 3: somebody who's not affiliated with the San Juan School District

474
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 3: would be able to just casually grab, you know, while

475
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 3: being on school ground somewhere, or is this something where

476
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 3: it's a specific person, let's say, a maintenance person, a

477
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 3: janitor that would have access to these these bags. But

478
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 3: that's also a little bit of a mess up on

479
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 3: the offender's part to have something that could be traced

480
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 3: back to him. You know, this could also be staged

481
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 3: where it's you know, purposely choosing something that doesn't come

482
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 3: back to the offender. You know. So, but right now,

483
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 3: it's interesting. I mean, there's overlap in terms of the victimology.

484
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 3: There's overlap in terms of sexual assault homicide of a female,

485
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 3: but there are some significant differences. I still would consider

486
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 3: the possibility of the same offender even with those differences.

487
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because you know, if you were to

488
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: tell me about these two cases and the way that

489
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: the crimes were structured, in the way they were planned out,

490
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 2: I would have thought it would have been flipped. I

491
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: would have thought he would have gone in and realized

492
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 2: this was too quick. With Nancy, I'm probably going to

493
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: get caught. They're probably going to be able to trace me.

494
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: And then he works harder on the next on Judy

495
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: to really he takes her really far out to cover

496
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 2: it up. And this is sort of the opposite so

497
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: that when I initially read that, I thought, I don't know,

498
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 2: I mean, don't they usually get a little bit more sophisticated,

499
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: not less sophisticated when they do these I guess not right.

500
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 3: They learn from their experiences, but they also experiment as

501
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,719
Speaker 3: they do you know cases. But I open up when

502
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 3: I when I teach the serial Predator course, I bring

503
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 3: up three cases out of the nineteen seventies that you

504
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: go this is from three different offenders. And it turns out, no,

505
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 3: it's the same guy. He's doing it differently each time.

506
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 3: So that's part of the linkage. The difficulty of linkage

507
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 3: using behaviors and mo aspects, it is a very difficult

508
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 3: thing unless you have really unique set of circumstances. That's

509
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 3: the beauty of having DNA today because we can really

510
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 3: link cases through DNA showing it's the same offender, even

511
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: though the cases on the surface look like completely different

512
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 3: types of cases.

513
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you. In Judith's case, who they're

514
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: looking at. They looked at Raymond and cleared him. I

515
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: told you that the fiance. The news spreads about Judy's murder.

516
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: The guy who owns the property these mining shafts, he

517
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: comes forward. He says that three men he had never

518
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: met before were digging a hole on his property about

519
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: a week after Judy was last seen, and the guys

520
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: told him they were digging for antique to sell, which

521
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 2: I had not heard of, but sounds interesting. They said

522
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 2: it was a thing that people actually still do at

523
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 2: old mining sites.

524
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

525
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: But he was uncomfortable with the encounter and so he

526
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 2: wanted to call the police. These three guys were never

527
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,880
Speaker 2: fully identified. You know, there's a vague description of one

528
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: of them, slim, six foot tall, has brown hair, but

529
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: there just doesn't seem to be any kind of a

530
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: strong link between Judy and these men. Another weird thing

531
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: about this story is the hiker who found Judy's body

532
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: happened to actually live near both of the women in Sacramento.

533
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: He's hiking fifty miles outside of Sacramento and he finds

534
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: these bodies and he lives, you know, within a couple

535
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: of blocks of these women. They look at the guy

536
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 2: and then they rule him out, and there's just never

537
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: a clear connection. And there's never, Paul a clear connection

538
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: between Judy's case and Nancy's case. And this goes cold.

539
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 2: Both of these cases go cold for a long time.

540
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 3: Okay, well, but both cases have sets of circumstances in

541
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 3: which modern technology might be able to pay off.

542
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: Okay, we're gonna flash forward thirty years. I'm going to

543
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: name drop in a second, and you can tell me

544
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: if you know this person. So in two thousand and four,

545
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: investigators reopen Nancy's case, so the second case, and they

546
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: create a DNA profile based on I'm presuming the blood evidence.

547
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: It's not the semen. This isn't something that was possible,

548
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: of course, you know, after the murder. And so the

549
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: DNA profile helps investigators eliminate every single one of their

550
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: original suspects. So all of these guys it eliminates, and

551
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 2: they also submit it to FBI's CODIS and there's no match.

552
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: Okay.

553
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: So there's a guy who works in the Sacramento DA's

554
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: office during this time period. His name is Scott Triplett.

555
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard that name?

556
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, the name is vaguely familiar, but I can't picture him.

557
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: So Scott Triplett says, the staff uploaded the DNA in

558
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: Dakotis in two thousand and four, and the DNA profile

559
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 2: was run through the CA California Department of Justice familiar

560
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: Search five times between two thousand and nine and twenty

561
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: twenty one each with negative results. So explain how that works.

562
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: It's different than CODIS, right, So tell me how often

563
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: you know they end up running these searches. It has

564
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: to be requested, is that right?

565
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: Yes, it has to be requested. There is a formal

566
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: process to make a familial search request, and you would

567
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: have a group of people at the DOJ level that

568
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 3: would evaluate each request and whether or not it merited

569
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: doing this familial search. It's still relying upon CODIS now.

570
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 3: CODIS is actually broken up basically at three tiers. You

571
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 3: have a local CODIS, you have a state level CODIS,

572
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: and then of course you have the national CODIS. Most

573
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: states in two thousand and four. In fact, many states

574
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 3: today don't allow familial searching to be done on their database.

575
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 3: And so for a familiar search in California, you can

576
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: only do that for the DNA profiles that are at

577
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: the California level. So even though it's possible that this

578
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 3: guy would have a son that's in CODIS in some

579
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: up Midwestern state, they're not legally permitted to search that

580
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 3: data base. So within California, we would just do the

581
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 3: familial request against the California database and we would attempt

582
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 3: to try to do familial requests on other states that

583
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 3: would allow it, but that typically would be rejected.

584
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 2: Well, the detectives in Sacramento keep this case going and

585
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: going and going for decades. They of course see what

586
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: happens with the Golden State killer, and they're hopeful that

587
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: they might be able to crack Nancy's case. Two. I

588
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: know that they were trying to make that connection in

589
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy between the two, but it sounds like that

590
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: sort of dropped off and they were really trying to

591
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: concentrate on Nancy's case because I'm not quite sure what

592
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: they collected on Judy's case, and I don't know if

593
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: this you know, probably her case would still offficial, be open,

594
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: But they were really concentrating on breaking Nancy's.

595
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 3: Case well, and that's because they were confident that they

596
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: had DNA evidence that would link back to the offender

597
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: in Nancy's case. In Judy's case, you know, her body's

598
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: found a month later. You know it's possible she's so decomposed,

599
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 3: and they just never did get a good DNA profile

600
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 3: in Judy's case, even though you know, investigatively they're going, well,

601
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: there's a chance that these cases are related, but their

602
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: efforts are going to be going on that DNA evidence

603
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 3: from Nancy's case.

604
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Okay, So in twenty nineteen, so just six

605
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: years ago, they uploaded the Suspected killers DNA profile into

606
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: the public genealogical databases. It takes three years and financial

607
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: support in the form of a grant from the Bureau

608
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: of Justice Assistance. Tell me that, I don't know if

609
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: I've heard that before, Bureau of Justice Assistance.

610
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this is a federal entity we shortened,

611
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: we refer to them as BGA, and so law enforcement

612
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: gets a wide variety of different grants out of these

613
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 3: BGA programs, and so there are grants that at the

614
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: federal level were coming out, you know, specifically for cold

615
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: cases or prosecuting cold cases. And these grants have been

616
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 3: modified over the past few years to permit that funding

617
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 3: to fund the genealogy testing.

618
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: Okay, good well, thank goodness for that Bureau of Justice assistants,

619
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: because they helped figure out this killer. So eventually, using

620
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: those funds and using genealogy, they land on the name

621
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: Richard John Davis. He was twenty seven years old when

622
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: he murdered Nancy I can give you details. You can

623
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: also see his photo and I don't know if you

624
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: just want to compare him to the boy scout looking,

625
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: you know, Glenn Campbell. But Davis is on the very

626
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 2: last page, and of course it's photo.

627
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 3: You know, in some ways he he almost has a

628
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 3: Ted Bundy look to him. Yeah, it's hard to say

629
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 3: if does he match that composite, but most certainly you

630
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 3: could see even at his age, he's got a fairly

631
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 3: full head of hair, so it's possible, you know, maybe

632
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 3: he did match the Glenn Campbell look. But you know,

633
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 3: the composite is on the side. Now, they got DNA right,

634
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 3: and so once they identify him as as a potential

635
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 3: through genealogy, then they would have done a direct sample

636
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: from him and compared you know, his DNA profile using

637
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 3: the traditional law enforcement type of DNA the STRs, to

638
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 3: the str profile that had previously been generated from assuming

639
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: the bloodstains collected at Nancy's apartment or along that blood trail,

640
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: and would be one hundred percent match. So they know

641
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 3: he's the guy.

642
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you about Richard John Davis. He

643
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: lived in the same apartment complex as Nancy. Okay, that

644
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: brings me back to ear witnesses who said, oh, we

645
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: heard a car take off out of the parking lot.

646
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: We don't know if that was him or not. But

647
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: I'll let me tell you a little bit more about

648
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: the circumstances. So he has a roommate. Both Richard and

649
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 2: his roommate were interviewed after Nancy's death, and they provided

650
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: alibis for each other. You know, certainly, I don't know

651
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: what that means. I mean, my goodness, if we were

652
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 2: hanging out at my house, you could slip out for

653
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: twenty minutes or go to that state I have to

654
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: go to bathroom, Kate and slip out and you know,

655
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 2: come back out. And if you're living right across the way,

656
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I maybe the roommate isn't making up this alibi.

657
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I could see it being possible

658
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: that he slips across the way and doesn't take very

659
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 2: long to do all this. But I don't know.

660
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 3: Well, like Nancy's case, you know, this is not where

661
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 3: the offender has spent a ton of time. Like I said,

662
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: this type of promise I can occur very quickly. Now

663
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: if he you know, was in there sexually assaulting her

664
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 3: over the course of hours. That's one thing. But I

665
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 3: mean it appears based on Ferris in his interview, is

666
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: that well, when I left Nancy was you know, she's

667
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 3: closed like she would be for bed, which basically was

668
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 3: just in our underwear. So it looks like Richard Davis

669
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 3: breaks in confronts Nancy. She probably puts up much greater

670
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 3: resistance than what he was expecting, and now he kills

671
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 3: her and he runs off. And this is a matter

672
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 3: of a few minutes in which all of that could

673
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 3: have occurred versus that other scenario brought up where he's

674
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 3: spending a lot of time sexually assaulting her. He never

675
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 3: got to the point of sexually assaulting her in all

676
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 3: likelihood under this set of circumstances.

677
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 2: The police have for fifty years quietly believed that Richard

678
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: should be on the radar. And here's one main reason.

679
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: They said that his apartment had the perfect vantage point

680
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: of her door. Okay, he would be able to see

681
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: the fiance going and coming, and all he would have

682
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: had to do is walk toward the back to see her,

683
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: leaving the door open just a crack to let the

684
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 2: cat in and out. And you know, he lived there

685
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: he lived in the apartment complex, so he would have

686
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: known very well about her habits, even though I think

687
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: she would have had a more predictable schedule I would

688
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 2: guess as a court reporter than somebody like Judy as

689
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: a nurse who probably worked all kinds of different shifts.

690
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: But you know, he's there, he's able to see everything,

691
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: and I think the police just had a bad feeling

692
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: about him. They think that the bloody trail that we

693
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: were talking about that ends in the parking lot that

694
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: someone said, oh yeah, I heard a car take off,

695
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 2: and I think this complex is small enough where people

696
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: it would have been unusual for a car to leave

697
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: that early in the morning. They think, actually, maybe this

698
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: blood trail doesn't actually end in the parking lot. It

699
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 2: could have extended all the way to a staircase where

700
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: Richard could have gotten into his place.

701
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 3: Well, but you also have to you know, this guy's

702
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 3: rapidly getting out of Nancy's apartment, you know, and at

703
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: a certain point, once he's you know, separated himself, he's

704
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 3: now looking on I'm bleeding, and now he wraps his

705
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 3: hand in his shirt or something, and so now you're

706
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 3: not getting that consistent trail That's just a normal response

707
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 3: that you see from offenders in flight. You know, once

708
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 3: they get a certain distance away, you know, now they're

709
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: kind of assessing what happened and looking at themselves. It's

710
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: also entirely possible he got into his vehicle and drove off,

711
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: you know, because he's now thinking, oh shit, I need

712
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 3: to get away from here because they're going to, you know,

713
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 3: find out you know, that I tried to attack Nancy

714
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: or I killed Nancy.

715
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 2: Would you expect now, I guess this is what I thought.

716
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 2: I expected that level of violence and sort of planning.

717
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: Whether I think the finger protectors you're silly or not,

718
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: he's planning stuff. I would have thought this was not

719
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: his first encounter, a violent encounter. But would that surprise

720
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 2: you or not surprised you, regardless of whatever his background is.

721
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 2: Would you think that he has done something along these

722
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 2: lines before or no?

723
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's That's one of the things that

724
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 3: we are finding out with the cases being solved with

725
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 3: genealogy as cases that I normally would evaluate and go,

726
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 3: you know, this looks predatory, Like you mentioned with Nancy's case,

727
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 3: the pre planning, the covering up, the you know, the fingertips.

728
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 3: He's obviously going in there with a knife. He's figured

729
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 3: out that that sliding door would would be available for

730
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 3: him to be able to get into and out of

731
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 3: and nobody would know, and you'd go, yeah, this guy

732
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 3: possibly has others. And he was you said, twenty seven

733
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: at the time of her homicide, you know, And generally

734
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 3: this is you know, where you do see offenders have

735
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 3: a few cases at a younger age and in a predatory,

736
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,479
Speaker 3: fantasy motivated type of homicide. However, we're seeing those types

737
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 3: of cases where these offenders commit them once and never

738
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 3: do it again. It's what we call the one off offender.

739
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 3: There's likely a lot of fantasy going on in Richard

740
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 3: Davis's head, you know, and he's watching her, he's watching Nancy,

741
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 3: fantasizing about what he wants to do with Nancy, and

742
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 3: then develops a planned and he got scared or you know,

743
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 3: when she fought back and he wasn't expecting it, and

744
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 3: now he's going, oh god, you know, don't I didn't

745
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 3: like that. I'm paranoid. I'm never going to do that again.

746
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 3: And that's just what we're finding. You do have offenders

747
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 3: that commit this horrific type of crime and then never

748
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 3: do it again. That's why they're not being solved in CODIS,

749
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 3: because they COTIS is predicated on the repeat offender versus genealogy.

750
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 3: He may never offend to get his DNA collected from him,

751
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 3: but he can't help his third cousins from doing genealogy research.

752
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 3: And now we can triangulate from the third cousins and

753
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 3: drop down on Richard Davis.

754
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you about Richard. He had no

755
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: violent record, He had a couple of DUI's, he had

756
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: a drinking problem according to people in his life. But

757
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: after he was killed, Richard seemed to live a quiet

758
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 2: life with a wife and children. I mean, you know

759
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: that we know of of course, I always say that

760
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 2: he wasn't arrested for anything violent. We don't know what happened.

761
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 2: Investigators are incredibly happy about this, as is I'm assuming

762
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: Nancy's family. This is solved fifty years later. The really

763
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 2: sad part of this to me is that Richard Davis

764
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: died in ninety seven in Sacramento County, Okay.

765
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 3: So he died before they ever discovered who he was. Yep,

766
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 3: you know I've had that happen.

767
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: He got away with it right.

768
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 3: But you know, it's still it's an answer. It is,

769
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 3: you know, and Nancy's family. It will never bring Nancy back,

770
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: but having an answer at least is something.

771
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 2: And you know, just talking about the other case that

772
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: they were never able to connect, which is Judy huck

773
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 2: Awry's case, it's unsolved. They were never able to move

774
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: the needle on that, and you know, it's considered I

775
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: believe in an open case at this point, but at

776
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: least we're able to talk about it in case people

777
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 2: do know anything that happened. These are relive for us,

778
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 2: relatively recent cases where there could be people out there.

779
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: I think through those circumstances, and Richard living in that

780
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,959
Speaker 2: complex makes sense as the offender. You know, he's able

781
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 2: to see her pattern in everything. I'm not sure Richard

782
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: with Judy makes sense. It's not his apartment complex. I

783
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: guess he could be stalking her, but she has an

784
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 2: unpredictable schedule. I guess it could be a crime of opportunity.

785
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 2: But if he was interested in that, he had one already,

786
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: you know, there in the apartment complex. I mean, I

787
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: guess you never know, but I was just thinking, to me,

788
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: this feels like two different offenders, but I don't know,

789
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: we don't know.

790
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 3: It would not surprise me, you know. With with Judith,

791
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 3: you know that Richard is prowling a different apartment complex

792
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 3: than his own right, and for that first case, maybe

793
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 3: he does do surveillance on Judy, finds the life pattern

794
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 3: the offender. In Judas case, I mean the torn towelstrips

795
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 3: that shows pre planning, if the offender is at her

796
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 3: place of work and is maybe hiding in her car.

797
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 3: You know, he's definitely showing that there's been some thought

798
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 3: put into attacking Judith and then figuring out how I'm

799
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 3: going to dispose of her body. That very well could

800
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 3: be Richard Davis, yeah, you know, and he can't help

801
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 3: himself when he's seeing Nancy day in and day out

802
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 3: in his own apartment complex. You know. I think with

803
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 3: Judas case, it sounds like enough. Of course, I don't

804
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: know to what extent that they've gone after the evidence,

805
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 3: you know, and it's a much more difficult case from

806
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 3: a DNA standpoint, But I those torn towel strips, I

807
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 3: think the technology today, the sensitivity of the DNA testing

808
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: today could potentially find offender DNA, you know, So I'm

809
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 3: hoping that they've at least pursued that and maybe they

810
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 3: struck out, But if they haven't, that would be one

811
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 3: of the things I would I would recommend you never know,

812
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 3: this guy could have put the towel in his mouth

813
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 3: while he's tearing it, and you actually have a saliva

814
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: stain with a whole bunch of DNA on it, and

815
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 3: you just need to have the right DNA analyst who's

816
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 3: very thorough to find something like that.

817
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: Okay, one thing that I think you'll find interesting. There

818
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 2: was a lot of chatter online on Reddit and other

819
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: message boards and blogs that the belief that Nancy might

820
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 2: have been a victim of the Zodiac killer. I didn't

821
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: explore it because, of course, now we know this was

822
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: a lot of this predates, of course, the DNA evidence.

823
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: I don't sure why that would have been an option

824
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 2: for folks on Reddit to think that she would have

825
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: been Do you have any ideas about this?

826
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, no, for sure. This is I You know,

827
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 3: I kind of got into the Zodiac world because I

828
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 3: was working that and you know, my lab had actually

829
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: done work on the Zodiac case, so I had access

830
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 3: to some materials, and you know, once my name kind

831
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 3: of got associated with work in the Zodiac. Then of

832
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 3: course I've got all the various online people you know,

833
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 3: hitting me up, and with Zodiac, there's a thought that

834
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 3: Zodiac has many, many more cases than the actual you know,

835
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 3: four attacks that we know he did, even some of

836
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 3: my unsolved cases out of Contacosta County, these Zodiac slews

837
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 3: are saying, well, it's got to be Zodiac, he must

838
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 3: have done all of this. And then as we solve

839
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 3: cases like, no, it's not. You know, we have a

840
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 3: lot of these predators out there, particularly back in the

841
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 3: nineteen seventies, so it's not surprising to me, you know,

842
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 3: like with Nancy's case, that somebody would go, well, that's

843
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 3: got to be Zodiac, you know, because he had one

844
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 3: point he sent like a card in it was like

845
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: me thirty eight you know, SFPD zero or something. You know.

846
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 3: So they're thinking, well, he's now admitting that he's done

847
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 3: thirty eight cases, and so they're trying to scoop all

848
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 3: these unsolved cases as being Zodiac and that's just not

849
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 3: the case.

850
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: Well, I hope somebody is involved still with Judy Hakari's case,

851
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 2: because you know, she deserves justice too, And I don't

852
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: know what the reaction was of Nancy's family about at

853
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 2: least having some answers here. I'm sure there's some sort

854
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 2: of sense of relief, not closure, but just some sort

855
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 2: of knowing, you know that that this is this is

856
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 2: a person who, though he died without facing justice, there

857
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: still is you know that being able to put that

858
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 2: part of it to rest. That's a hard case. I mean,

859
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: talking about young women dying in their twenties in such

860
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: a horrible way and with such promise, not even the

861
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: I'm going to get married part, but that just these

862
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: you know, they seem like effervescent, well liked people, and

863
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 2: it's just so awful to kind of go through that.

864
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 2: But I also I like this case, these two cases,

865
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: because the juxtaposition of them, to me, really kind of

866
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 2: shows how unpredictable a killer could be, because you and

867
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 2: I are both kind of going it could be and

868
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: they might be connected and they might not. What you

869
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 2: can't do is rely on a profile or what we've

870
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 2: heard on TV to say this was overkill. It had

871
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: to have been the fiance or somebody knew her, or

872
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: somebody who was in love with her, when that was

873
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 2: clearly not the case. But a lot of people would

874
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: say something like that. So that's why I bring these

875
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: kind of cases to you.

876
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 3: No, well, I think you know, and like you when

877
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: you say a profile, you know, the sort of that

878
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 3: behavioral analysis there. I do believe that there is there

879
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 3: is value to having you know, that somebody who has

880
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 3: expertise in that, but it's also recognized the limitations of that,

881
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 3: you know, and it's it's really where, you know, if

882
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 3: there is something that the offender has done that is

883
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 3: just so unique that behavioral profiler possibly can spot that

884
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 3: where the average detective won't because the average detective doesn't

885
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 3: work these types of cases day in and day out

886
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: and hasn't seen stuff. So there is value, but sometimes

887
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 3: people way overreach and you know, and it's not necessarily

888
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 3: appreciating that. You can have, you know, what appear to

889
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: be the same types of cases happening at the same

890
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 3: time in the same neighborhood and it's all by different offenders,

891
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,959
Speaker 3: that's a reality, or you can have cases that don't

892
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 3: look related at all, like Judith and Nancy. He's outside

893
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 3: of the geographic connection and it could be the same offender,

894
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 3: he's just doing different things.

895
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 2: Well, next week will probably not be diving into DNA,

896
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: much to your chagrin, will probably be stomping around on

897
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: a farmhouse in the eighteen hundreds trying to figure out

898
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: what somebody would do with like a pickaxe or something.

899
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: But they're all valuable. These are all the same people

900
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: every I mean, I just don't you see that that pattern.

901
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 2: It's just people are people, and that's it. It doesn't

902
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: matter if it's from the seventeen hundreds or twenty twenty five.

903
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: They all kind of react exactly the same to things.

904
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: They cover stuff up, and you know, we might have

905
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 2: more resources now, but it doesn't mean you're going to

906
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: get caught. They got caught in the eighteen hundreds. You'll

907
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 2: get caught now.

908
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 3: Nope, for sure. Well I'm looking forward to it.

909
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 2: All right, I will see you next week.

910
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 3: Sounds good, Kate.

911
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

912
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia

913
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 3: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

914
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

915
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

916
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

917
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Brivogel.

918
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

919
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

920
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

921
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: buried Bones pod.

922
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

923
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

924
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now.

925
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

926
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: cold Cases, is also available now.

927
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,120
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928
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