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Speaker 1: This is the meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.

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Speaker 2: You can't predict anything.

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Speaker 1: The meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by first Light.

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Speaker 1: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting

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Speaker 1: for el, First Light has performance apparel to support every

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Speaker 1: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 1: dot com. F I R S T L I t

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Speaker 1: E dot com. Is being a master fly tire a thing?

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Speaker 1: Or is that just a description?

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Speaker 2: That's just a stupid description.

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Speaker 3: It's not like.

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Speaker 4: Exactly, like somebody probably just labeled you that, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: One time I got a labeled it was like one

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Speaker 2: of the top five tires in the world. And the

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Speaker 2: ironic part was that was only time for like three years.

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Speaker 2: So it's not something that I wanted that label with

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Speaker 2: because it causes a lot of haters. Oh really, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're like, uh, like to me, fishing is fishing, but

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Speaker 2: in fly fishing you have a lot of pretentious motherfuckers that.

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Speaker 1: Are you recording, phill, Yes, I am recording that.

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Speaker 3: I have cameras, but we've got it. Yeah, we're good.

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Speaker 5: God, he's saying.

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Speaker 3: It people saying this is greeting and tying that we

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Speaker 3: are Actually we're.

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Speaker 1: Joined today by one of the top five fly tires.

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Speaker 1: Please out, top five in the world, the entire world,

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Speaker 1: the entire world, one of the top five. SANTAO, welcome. Thanks.

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Speaker 1: What do you trying to say that off air? Not

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Speaker 1: he's trying to say it off air because he's saying

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Speaker 1: it with a certain eye roll. I want to hear more,

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Speaker 1: honest eye roll.

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Speaker 5: I want to hear more about what you're getting that.

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Speaker 1: Well, the uh.

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Speaker 2: At the advent of social media, you have a lot

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Speaker 2: of people that are on there more or less just

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Speaker 2: for the insta fame.

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Speaker 1: Non be talking about haters next, But what's your Instagram handle?

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Speaker 1: Probably about five.

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Speaker 2: Out of the ten people that you'll see posts on

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Speaker 2: there don't even fucking fish. They just post flies just

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Speaker 2: for the likes. And you would say, you could look

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Speaker 2: at them and there'll be like these super colorful flies

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Speaker 2: that I don't know what the hell they mimic, but

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Speaker 2: they pretty much. It's for artsy and it is a

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Speaker 2: form of the fly tying. Fly fishing industry is some

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Speaker 2: people will just tie just for the tranquil aspect of

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Speaker 2: it and for the mental health. But the vast majority

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Speaker 2: of don't even tie the are fish that you see

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Speaker 2: post up on there and then.

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Speaker 1: So there's a so there's a social media. Uh, let

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Speaker 1: me say something else too. The start of this thing

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Speaker 1: is we have them described here as a master fly tire,

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Speaker 1: but also a master sergeant. So you are a master

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Speaker 1: like indisputably that's master sergeant in the US Army. Yes,

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Speaker 1: questionably a master fly tire. Questionably lower lowercase m uppercase

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Speaker 1: M in the military, lowercase M. As a fly tire,

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Speaker 1: like you're not a certified master fly tire.

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Speaker 2: No, that is just labels that will people give for

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Speaker 2: whatever reason. People like the label everything. And in the

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Speaker 2: fly fishing world like you got these master casters, master tires, etcetera, etcetera.

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Speaker 2: To me's fishing is fishing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what you want to know? The most

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Speaker 1: annoying thing fly fishermen.

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Speaker 2: Do what catch and release everything.

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Speaker 1: No, No, that is a bottom. I'm glad. I wish

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Speaker 1: everybody did that because that's more fish for me to eat.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 1: The most annoying thing they do is they have taken

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Speaker 1: certain fish and they've broken their name down to letters

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Speaker 1: GT so giant Travaldi becomes a GT. Why is a

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Speaker 1: bluegill not a BG? It's like it doesn't mean it,

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Speaker 1: or like a yellow perch. Oh, you know I was

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Speaker 1: out for yps LB's yps.

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Speaker 3: You know what, Debbie, why are you not hitting strike indicator?

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Speaker 1: So obvious?

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Speaker 3: That's just like he was.

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Speaker 5: He was attacking pretentious carp fly fishman the other day.

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Speaker 1: Which I totally agree I was doing that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we were talking about how stupid.

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Speaker 1: Listen, I fly fish this summer more than more than

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Speaker 1: any person in America. Really, not how much I fly

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Speaker 1: didn't see you do it, That's how much I fly

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Speaker 1: fished this summer more than any other American master angler.

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Speaker 4: I bet the uh at the spot up there, I

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Speaker 4: mean I have hours, probably two.

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Speaker 1: Into it. Oh then me and Yannie fly fish went

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Speaker 1: fish and cutthroats on the I'm not gonna say like

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Speaker 1: I'd love to talk greater. Do you tell about it?

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Speaker 1: I have never seen anything like uh this lake we

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Speaker 1: rode horses up to in Wyoming. I have never ever

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Speaker 1: in my life seen cutthroat fishing like that. Nice fishing,

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Speaker 1: crazy cut Bonneville.

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Speaker 3: Now you're giving away where you.

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Speaker 1: Were, dude, Like unbelievable unbelievable big black spots. What does

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Speaker 1: that means? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry the fish.

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Speaker 4: Did you release him?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 1: We killed three?

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Speaker 3: How big we talking?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 1: Probably eighteen on the top end?

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Speaker 3: Sweet?

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Speaker 1: Probably eighteen on the top end, and you'd look for him,

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Speaker 1: you know, Oh, so much fun man, Maybe maybe like

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Speaker 1: fly fish because I'd kind of outgrown it, but it

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Speaker 1: made me kind of love it again.

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Speaker 4: Man, well you had fun with all the times you

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Speaker 4: went fishing with me.

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Speaker 3: Did you abbreviate cutthroat or do you call them cuts?

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Speaker 1: Gantt their giant c cts? Uh, get back to the

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Speaker 1: arts and joke. So so in the fly tying world,

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Speaker 1: there is there's a social media element to the fly

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Speaker 1: tying world, and there are fly tires that don't fish.

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Speaker 1: They're just in the craftsmanship. Yep, the artistry.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so uh like you got. You get a mix

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Speaker 2: of people that will try to showcase their flies that

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Speaker 2: do a lot of fishing. They showcase a lot of

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Speaker 2: different guide flies, and you have other ones that will

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Speaker 2: just explain that a guide fly guy fly is like

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Speaker 2: basically fly that's really easy to tie that will catch

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Speaker 2: sand wan warm and an egg or a midge or

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Speaker 2: something like that.

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Speaker 3: You bust them out and clients are gonna lose them.

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Speaker 2: Then you have other ones that will tie, like these

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Speaker 2: super intricate flies. I have like a ton of material,

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Speaker 2: a lot of different wild colors, and so there's a

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Speaker 2: there's a big difference flies that have been known historically

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Speaker 2: to catch fish for decades in some cases even hundreds

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Speaker 2: a year, like the Royal Coachman for example. Then you

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Speaker 2: have these other funky wild color flies that people that

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Speaker 2: are into fly fishing per se. They'll look at them

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Speaker 2: and they see all these wonderful colors and they hit

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Speaker 2: the like button. So that's that's disparity between two. And

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Speaker 2: like my heartache with it is that you have a

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Speaker 2: lot of new people that have no idea what the

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Speaker 2: hell they're doing when it comes to fly tie or fishing.

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Speaker 2: And they'll see some of these flies and they these

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Speaker 2: some of these individuals have like pretty large accounts, and

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Speaker 2: they think that's actually a fly that they should be

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Speaker 2: fishing with or learning how to tie. In reality, they're

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Speaker 2: they're totally wasting their time.

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Speaker 1: But so do you like tying? You like tye and

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Speaker 1: stuff that can be fish.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's what my pretty much my account is based

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Speaker 2: off of flies that actually work.

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Speaker 1: This is the most amazing This is probably I mean,

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Speaker 1: I haven't you know, I'm not like a hobbyist, but

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Speaker 1: this is probably the most amazing fly I've ever held

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Speaker 1: in my life.

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Speaker 3: That thing's awesome.

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Speaker 2: It works, maybe, like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is unbelievable the artistry and then the the

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Speaker 1: life that's in this thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So a lot of these are tum And do you

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Speaker 3: feel like that would catch a fish?

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Speaker 1: Steve catch a lot of fish.

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Speaker 2: It feels like when I said that, I'd catch a

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Speaker 2: lot of kinds of fish.

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Speaker 3: But does a fly like that earn you a master title?

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Speaker 3: Or do you have to tie specific flies in order

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Speaker 3: to be a master?

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Speaker 2: No, basically there's there's really no criteria. Like, to me,

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Speaker 2: that's a stupid label master tire I.

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Speaker 7: Put it in the script. You guys can blame me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, to me, like I wouldn't even come close to Like,

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Speaker 2: you have people that have been time for like forty

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Speaker 2: fifty years that have set the foundation for everybody else

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Speaker 2: that is starting or has just started in the last ten,

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Speaker 2: you know, fifteen years, And they're the ones that came

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Speaker 2: up with the innovations using different type of materials, where

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Speaker 2: it was like using deer hair at one point in history,

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Speaker 2: or parts of a pheasant or a muskrat or whatever

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Speaker 2: the case may be. It wasn't me, It wasn't like

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Speaker 2: anybody in this generation. Those guys are the master tires.

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Speaker 2: They are the ones that you know, wrote the books

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Speaker 2: that showed people that you could use hair from a

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Speaker 2: lama and catch fish with it. None of us are

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Speaker 2: very innovative nowadays. I mean there were people that will

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Speaker 2: label themselves as such. But those folks that from forty seventy,

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Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty years ago, they're the master tires.

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Speaker 5: Is there some specific old school tires that you emulate

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Speaker 5: or like, really you're into them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, more or less because of their personalities versus and

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Speaker 2: a lot of cases. Also, you know, their flies are exceptional.

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Speaker 2: But one of the local guys there, Kelly Gallup, he's

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Speaker 2: the one that came up with a lot of these

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Speaker 2: for flies here, like this sex Dungeon, the mini sex Dungeon,

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Speaker 2: him and his crazy fucking names. But they actually work

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Speaker 2: and they catch a lot of fish. And then other

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Speaker 2: guys like Pat Dorsey out of Colorado that fishes a

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Speaker 2: lot of tail waters and basically mimic. All his his

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Speaker 2: guide flies off of what the fish are eating there

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Speaker 2: and they work like crazy. That one Boxer as like

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Speaker 2: a bunch of twenty four to twenty six is that

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Speaker 2: are flies that Pat designed and they work. So those

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Speaker 2: are just a few of the guys that that I

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Speaker 2: have looked up to over the years, and they really

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Speaker 2: want to know what they're talking about. And two also

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Speaker 2: they catch a lot of fish, so it's not like

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Speaker 2: they're just coming up with crazy shit that don't work.

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Speaker 2: The stuff that they they put in their books and

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Speaker 2: stuff that they talk about all or proven patterns that

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Speaker 2: work everywhere in the world.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna cover off on your life history

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Speaker 1: a bit, but just just to just to tee it up.

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Speaker 1: Then we got to touch on a couple of things.

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Speaker 1: You were born in Vietnam in Vietnam and then grew

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Speaker 1: up in Pennsylvania, but you spent some number of months

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Speaker 1: in uh In, not in Vietnam.

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Speaker 2: Now, I for like the first almost a year and

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Speaker 2: a half of my life, I lived in a refuge

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Speaker 2: camp in Malaysia. So my dad was in the military

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Speaker 2: in the Vietnam and as part of the South Vietnamese army.

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Speaker 2: If we would have got caught or he would have

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Speaker 2: got caught, he probably would have been executed yep. And

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Speaker 2: so as after the fall of Saigan, the North Vietnamese

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Speaker 2: and the Communist started, you know, sweeping down further south.

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Speaker 2: And the town that I was born is called Baklu,

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Speaker 2: which is all the very southern point of Vietnam. So

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Speaker 2: that gave us a couple of years, but eventually they

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Speaker 2: would have came through there anyways, and so.

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Speaker 1: We gave you extra years, yeah, because they.

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Speaker 2: Were still working from from what they renamed the Ho

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Speaker 2: Chi Min city on the way moving down to the

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Speaker 2: southern point of Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: And it was not like you turned like post nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy five. Yeah, yeah, they were still fighting their way

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Speaker 1: south or just moving there.

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Speaker 2: Just moving their way south and basically implementing communism, and

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Speaker 2: like every single town on that got it.

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Speaker 1: So they weren't encountering like resistance all the way.

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Speaker 2: So now now I see, Yeah, basically, I mean I

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Speaker 2: was the opposite of most kids that I grew up

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Speaker 2: in Vietnam. I came from a very well to do

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Speaker 2: family and my grandfather pretty much owned the entire like port,

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Speaker 2: so he got all the royalties of the ships and

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Speaker 2: stuff coming in. I had pretty much everything that a

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Speaker 2: kid could want growing up in Vietnam and then to

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Speaker 2: baby basically know and and my this was my parents.

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Speaker 2: I was so young. I had no idea this shit.

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Speaker 2: But what they told me was that all that was

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Speaker 2: gonna be taken away. And also at the same time,

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Speaker 2: my father run the risk of being executed. So we

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Speaker 2: literally left in a banana boat. I mean we fled

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Speaker 2: out of there in a boat and landed on the shore.

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Speaker 1: Talk about bad luck, an actual banana boat.

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Speaker 2: We left there and went to the refuge camp in

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Speaker 2: palal Badong, which is about the size of four football fields,

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Speaker 2: but it housed that any given time about ten thousand refugees.

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Speaker 2: So it was packed like sardines in there. And that's

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Speaker 2: a sour subject of itself because I refused eat sardines

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Speaker 2: because that's what we had. But we were given as

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Speaker 2: far as a canas gardines and a vaga ris like

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Speaker 2: every day who ran the camp on the Malaysian government

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Speaker 2: they ran, yeah, I mean totally off subject well as

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Speaker 2: well similar to the subject, but on the trip there

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Speaker 2: where while we were on the boat, they suffered probably

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Speaker 2: about thirty five percent casualties from dysentery and other diseases

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Speaker 2: and so like as a at that time, I think

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Speaker 2: I was four and a half and I was seeing

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Speaker 2: like babies and people just being thrown overboard as they died,

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Speaker 2: and that that like left an imprint in my head

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Speaker 2: for a long time, because I started having nightmares when

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Speaker 2: I was a teenager. Basically just waking up and.

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Speaker 3: Well, also being able to avoid disease at four and

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Speaker 3: a half years old, it seems like a minor miracle.

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Speaker 2: The whole family made it, so that was a minor

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Speaker 2: miracle in itself there. But there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: people that died and they just like chucked them overboard.

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Speaker 2: And it was actually Thay pirates that saved our asses

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Speaker 2: because the tire ship was out of way and so

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Speaker 2: we were getting raided and everybody was like swallowing all

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Speaker 2: their jewelry and all that stuff because that's what they

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Speaker 2: were going to set their their future on. But in

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Speaker 2: exchange for basically pillaging the boat, they gave us water

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Speaker 2: and then we made it the rest of the way

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Speaker 2: of the Malaysia.

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Speaker 1: What year were you born.

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Speaker 2: I was born in seventy four.

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Speaker 1: You're forty nine, yep, fifty in.

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Speaker 4: March what was the island called again.

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Speaker 2: Palau Bedung p u l a u b I d

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Speaker 2: o ng. Then you guys spent how many months at

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Speaker 2: the eighteen months there and then uh from there to US. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the US wasn't my parents' first choice because we had

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Speaker 2: no family over in the US. We had family in Europe,

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Speaker 2: Australia and other places, and so they they applied for

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Speaker 2: political asylum and all those other countries and they all

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Speaker 2: told us the fuck off, and the US was the

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Speaker 2: only one that said yes. And that's how and then

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Speaker 2: it was a men in Knite family. That's how I

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Speaker 2: end up in Pennsylvania, was a Mena Nite family from

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Speaker 2: this church called Grafdale Mennonite Church that end up basically

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Speaker 2: picking our family name out of some refugee book and

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Speaker 2: then sponsored as and helped us with the paperwork to

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Speaker 2: get to the US. And we started off in like Oakland,

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Speaker 2: California for the first I think it was almost a

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Speaker 2: year there living in there in the city. And then

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Speaker 2: eventually they got us to Pennsylvania where they helped my

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Speaker 2: parents settle and find work and whatnot.

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Speaker 3: The manner of speaking for The Mennonites didn't rub off

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Speaker 3: on you.

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Speaker 2: I think the military soury of those beliefs that I

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Speaker 2: might have had grown up, you know, but they did

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Speaker 2: lay a pretty good foundation because it's basically you learned

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Speaker 2: to appreciate things a little bit more coming from that

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Speaker 2: type of culture. I mean, we went to their churches

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Speaker 2: for a little bit, but they allowed us the freedom

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Speaker 2: to basically, you know, worship how we saw failed.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome, that's amazing.

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Speaker 8: You know.

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Speaker 1: Art my mom and dad's church when I was a

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Speaker 1: little kid, they had sponsored some South Vietnamese refugees who'd

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Speaker 1: been in the military and for I don't know where

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Speaker 1: they went, but they came in. They stayed there and

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Speaker 1: my dad and him with ice fish together, which he

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Speaker 1: had to have thought was the wildest thing in the world,

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Speaker 1: right to like all of a sudden come to the

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Speaker 1: US and like instantly be ice fishing. But but they

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Speaker 1: just I don't know. I'd love to find out what

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Speaker 1: happened to that family. Are we still actually I was

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Speaker 1: probably four or five years old or you stay in touch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we still stay in touch with them. My mom

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Speaker 2: is still very close to them, so they she still

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Speaker 2: lives like twenty minutes away from where they are.

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Speaker 5: Were you guys near Lancaster?

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Speaker 9: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Really yeah yeah, Lancaster County.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, hang tight, I'm gonna talk about some stuff.

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Speaker 1: If you've got any comments, feel free, okay. I mean

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Speaker 1: as a master fly tire.

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Speaker 5: Or a master sergeant or.

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Speaker 1: A master Yeah you can. You can weigh in as

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Speaker 1: a sergeant or a fly tire as you see fit. Oh,

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Speaker 1: one thing, what was it? I gotta replug it. I

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Speaker 1: got to replug it. Where is it? If you have

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Speaker 1: an event planned, if you had an event plan in

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Speaker 1: northern Michigan and you need a my Buddy's bar. My

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Speaker 1: buddy has a new business. He has a camper trailer

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00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,479
Speaker 1: rigged out like a bar. So if you're having an event, wedding, whatever,

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Speaker 1: and you want a bar, there's no change of money.

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Speaker 1: Like when you hire his services. You buy the booze.

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Speaker 1: He picks up the booze, pulls the bar up all

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Speaker 1: the mixers custom cocktails at your event. So your guests

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Speaker 1: just walk up to the camper trailer full bar back there.

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Speaker 7: Love it.

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Speaker 8: He's gotta he's gotta do like a tiki bar version

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Speaker 8: of that, and then we'll do like a meat Eater podcast.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll send them some forest for foods garnishes first

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Speaker 4: bar too.

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Speaker 1: You better be serious, you don't know that. Roamingnomi dot com,

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Speaker 1: Roaming n O m I so, roaming Northern Michigan dot

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Speaker 1: com packages prices, phone numbers and all. Matt Droz very

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Speaker 1: dear friend of mine from growing up. A lot of hunting,

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Speaker 1: a lot of fishing, a lot of drinking, a lot

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Speaker 1: of drinking, a lot of drinking. Sure h, too much drinking.

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Speaker 1: What else we got? Oh? Season twelve announcement, So a

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Speaker 1: bunch of new mediater episodes premiering. When is this?

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Speaker 7: It launches on October twelve.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, premiering October twelve. So you go find them. Go

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Speaker 1: to our meat Eater website or our me eater YouTube channel.

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Speaker 1: So the website or the YouTube channel October twelve, bunch

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Speaker 1: of new episodes. We have the episode coming up of

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Speaker 1: hunting black Bears in a wet suit, all kinds of stuff,

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Speaker 1: Big mule Deer, Big Out, lots of cool episodes, Big Squirrels.

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Speaker 1: October twelve on the met eater website and on the

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Speaker 1: meat Eater YouTube channel. Brand new episodes. You can catch

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Speaker 1: them first. There also have a live tour coming up

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Speaker 1: in early December. We don't have all the dates yet,

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Speaker 1: starting like the first week of December. Like we're gonna

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be a bus tour. We're gonna do I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like ten cities in thirteen days or something

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 7: He love those live tours.

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Speaker 4: We're gonna be like Tails from the tour bus.

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Speaker 1: Tails the tour bus, big trivia component to the tour.

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Speaker 1: Spencer is Spencer Newhart has to go to all tour dates.

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Speaker 5: Is he driving the bus.

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Speaker 1: He's driving the bus. He's driving the bus. So it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be We're yeah, we're doing a live tour over

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Speaker 1: damn place, uh in a bus, which is I kind

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Speaker 1: of like the idea of this bus thing in the

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Speaker 1: tour bus spinal tap. So stay tuned for that. You

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Speaker 1: better buy some tickets, man, better buy some tickets. Got

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Speaker 1: a new calendar. I't called me Eater's dirty doesn't so

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Speaker 1: it just so happens.

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Speaker 7: Oh it's coming soon.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, picture that. You make twelve seasons of a show

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Speaker 1: and then you got twelve months in a year. At

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Speaker 1: some point someone's going to be like, I got an idea,

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Speaker 1: so this year calendar every year. Every month you follow me?

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Speaker 1: Every month is a year? Eh, yeah, it's genius.

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Speaker 3: A facial expression twelve twelve smirks of Steve twelve years.

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Speaker 1: Twelve years of the show captured in twelve months, So

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Speaker 1: like January is I don't know what the hell two

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Speaker 1: thousand and twelve years ago.

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Speaker 7: You can see Steve age ever so slightly.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, a lot, dude, No, no, no.

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Speaker 4: I don't think a lot, just twelve years smirks.

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Speaker 1: So check that out. Also, Oh, Phelps on Phelps Unleashed.

402
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:52,680
Speaker 2: Why is this?

403
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 1: Say, don't read this.

404
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,639
Speaker 8: Because I put the whole description in it and it

405
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 8: takes a long time to read all of it.

406
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 7: Those are just some highlights, Oh that you can.

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Speaker 1: Hit well, Phelps's bugle tube is is improved. I'm just

408
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 1: gonna skim through it.

409
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:09,919
Speaker 7: Yeah.

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00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 1: So, Jason Phelps, who comes on the show often host

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Speaker 1: of Cutting the Distance, founder of Phelps Game Calls, has

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Speaker 1: a new generation of the Unleashed Bugle Tube. I didn't

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Speaker 1: think that there was a problem with the old one,

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Speaker 1: but apparently never satisfied. So basically, people that had the

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00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 1: Unleashed tube had various comments about it, and Jason being

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Speaker 1: the obsessive that he is is going on and address

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Speaker 1: various condoms. Comments. One, the new version recycled plastic. That's cool, Uh,

418
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 1: guys had some people had a problem with the mouthpiece,

419
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: So now you can remove the mouthpiece, meaning your tube

420
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 1: comes with a mouthpiece on it. But some people like

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00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: the smaller aperture. So now when you get it, you

422
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: either like the mouthpiece, which I think the mouthpiece is great.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why you wouldn't like it, but some

424
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: people don't want the mouthpieces just blow straight into the tube.

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00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 1: Comes with the easy bugler and the flared mouthpieces. It's lighter,

426
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,760
Speaker 1: so twelve point five hours, twenty inches in length, so

427
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,880
Speaker 1: V two version two, he says, it gets the same

428
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 1: exact sound in a little bit smaller package. They dress

429
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 1: the whole thing and neoprene reduced noises from touching on

430
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: brush and adaptable. So a complete calling system for any

431
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 1: calling style with one purchase two comes equipped with a

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Speaker 1: flared mouthpiece for diaphragm calling. Earlier, when I was talking

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Speaker 1: about people not liking the mouthpiece, that's what I meant,

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00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 1: meaning there's a read piece that goes on it too.

435
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,360
Speaker 1: If you don't like using diaphragm calls. You can use

436
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: the red mounted on the bugle tube, or you can

437
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: pull or read off put the flared mouthpiece on it

438
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: if fits over your mouth better, or if you want

439
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: to go ultra lightweight. I suppose a fellow could just

440
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 1: pull the freaking the flared mouthpiece off as well and

441
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 1: run it that way outstanding back pressure for no articulation,

442
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: devastating bugles, mind bending screams. Who writes this copy? Is

443
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 1: this Ukraine?

444
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 7: Nope, let's think about it.

445
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 1: Devastating bugles love it? Just knock them over dead with

446
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: a mind bending screams. You bend their mind and devastate

447
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 1: them thunderous chuckles and grunts. I'm sold.

448
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 5: We need a sound effect there.

449
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: The Unleash V two is a new standard that all

450
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: beagles will be measured against. Now I gave a buddy

451
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: my want to borrow. I let my buddy borrow one. Um,

452
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: he went on. But he's got nothing to gain from this.

453
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: He went out the way that text me how wonderful

454
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 1: it was, and they killed a bowl. He said it

455
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: was the ship and bitching.

456
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: Wow.

457
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the new V two is out. Uh, here's

458
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: a lengthy one. This is interesting. A lot of the

459
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: news is full of uh, A lot of uproar going

460
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: on around refuges. Okay's covered as fair a bit wildlife

461
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 1: refuges in lead ammo. Okay, So certain refuges, you have

462
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: states that are getting rid of that, that are banning

463
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: lead ammo, banning lead sinkers, fish and sinkers, switching those

464
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: over with sinkers that when you bite them, you hear

465
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: your teeth crack.

466
00:24:59,240 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 5: Uh.

467
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 1: And there's a thing now where certain wildlife refuges are

468
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: looking to ban or have they implemented it cal or

469
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: not implemented it yet, it's a plan to implement a

470
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: ban on led AMMO in wildlife refuges.

471
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: I think that there's probably some that always have had

472
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 3: for sure in the regulations. But you know, because one

473
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 3: of the interesting things, right when you bring up refuge it,

474
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent of people go like, well, migratory birds, right,

475
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 3: And for how many years now has it been illegal

476
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 3: to use anything but non toxic ammunition for migratory birds.

477
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: Since when I was a little boy, A long.

478
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 3: Time, right. So I had to go through each one

479
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 3: of these and make sure that there was big game

480
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 3: hunting as a you know, legal means of recreation on

481
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 3: each one of these things, and you can't hunt white

482
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 3: till the year or you know, blackwater refugees on here

483
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 3: for SIKA and so yeah, you would have to switch over.

484
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think in some regulations it's just straight

485
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 3: up non toxic across the board, got it? Which is

486
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 3: kind of an interesting thing, right, because we always complain

487
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: about how complicated regulations are.

488
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, but neither here nor there. So the US Fish

489
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service looking to add or there's a proposal

490
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: or new rule going into place to ban traditional ammunition

491
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: which we call that ammunition on eight national wildlife refuges,

492
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: including Blackwater, chink fatigue. Don't even how to pronounce that?

493
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: One Eastern neck, eerie, great thicket, Patuxent, How do you

494
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: say that? Any?

495
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 2: No?

496
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 3: Close enough for me?

497
00:26:54,520 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: Patux At Research Refuge, Rachel Carson Refuge, Wallops Island. UH.

498
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: The NSSF n SSF National Shooting Sports Foundation UH shared

499
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: a letter that they had written to Martha Williams, and

500
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: Martha Williams has been on the on the show as

501
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: a guest. Because Martha Williams, who heads the US Fish

502
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: and Wildlife Service, used to head Montana's State Fishing Game Agency.

503
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 1: So in that capacity. Martha Williams was on the show before.

504
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: We have not had her on in her current capacity,

505
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: but would love to have around and talk about some

506
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: of this stuff. Note to krind you get that krinn it,

507
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: so that'd be interesting. So the NSSF Shared a Letter

508
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: is sort of an open letter challenging, challenging some of

509
00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 1: the assumptions within the led band tackling. First goes on

510
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: like any like any good compliment sandwich. It congratulates the

511
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: US Fish and Wildlife Service for expanding hunting and fishing

512
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: opportunities on the refuge system and then gets into the

513
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: meat of it, and it's lays out this interesting argument

514
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: that the so the US Fish and Wildlife Service is

515
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: tasked with protecting wildlife populations, okay, and because there is

516
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: a lack of any evidence that lead contamination from ammunition

517
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: is having any population level impacts on wildlife, there's no

518
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: sound reason to ban lead ammunition. Meaning bald eagles are

519
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: it's commonly pointed to bald eagles like a bald eagle

520
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: can get onto a carcass. Anyone wants to argue the

521
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: truth of this is just wasting their time, like this

522
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: is a thing that can happen. A bald eagle can

523
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: get onto a deer carcass, is someone killed with land ammunition.

524
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: The bald eagle can eat that lead ammunition, and the

525
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: bald eagle can die from lead toxicity. It's just like,

526
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: this is not a debatable point. That is a thing

527
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: that happens. And there is a.

528
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 5: Very few bald eagles around at one point because of

529
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 5: not because of lead, not because of lead, because of

530
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 5: dt T.

531
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 10: But now the eagles are back.

532
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: To bring this full circle, partially full circle, we just

533
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: mentioned the Rachel Carson refuge. Rachel Carson wrote if you've

534
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: heard people over the years mentioned the book Silent Spring.

535
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: Rachel Carson wrote a book called Silent Spring about the

536
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: devastating effects of DDT on birds. It was so it

537
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: was a insecticide. Is that correct? Prolific use insecticidey an insecticide.

538
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: If you watch old movies that they like to have

539
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: the thing where they're spreading DDT and kids are playing

540
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: in the clouds as it goes down the road. Rachel

541
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: Carson Silent Spring made the case of how DDT was

542
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: devastating to birds. DDT gets into a bird system, how

543
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: it would impact the bird is the bird. It would,

544
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: for some weird reason I have never studied up on,

545
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: would cause the bird's shell to get very thin. The

546
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: bird incubating its own egg would crack its own egg.

547
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: The shells got so thin that a bird would crack

548
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: its egg trying to incubate it. And this devastated a

549
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: bunch of raptors, eagles, peregrine falcons, osprays, all these other

550
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: birds got devastated from DDT DDT. This is like DDT

551
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: was having a absolute population level impact on birds. DDT

552
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: was band. Since then, bald eagles have recovered so much

553
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: that they were They're one of the very few species

554
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: to ever come off the Endangered Species List. I think

555
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: two percent of things that go on the ESA come

556
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: off because of recovery they recovered. However, a baal to

557
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: youle can eat lead ammo and it can die. A

558
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: bald eagle can hit a wind turbine and it can die.

559
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: A bald eagle can get hit by your car and

560
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: it can die.

561
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 3: A ball these strand barber wire fence a ball you.

562
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: Can hit a three strand barberier fence and die. No no, no, no,

563
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: no no no. One of the things that can kill

564
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: a bald eagle is lead toxicity. So the argument here is,

565
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: without being able to point to any population level impacts

566
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: of lead AMMO, how can you ban lead AMMO in

567
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: protection of wildlife populations? And this letter makes this case.

568
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: This letter also points to a couple of things like

569
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: this recurring and you see this all over the place,

570
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: This recurring idea that there is a lead toxicity element

571
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: to humans from eating harvested game, which is completely unsubstantiated.

572
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: The only time they've ever gone to this they went

573
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: into North Dakota and tested a bunch of hunters for lead,

574
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: and the hunters all had lower lead than people that

575
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: live in cities. The reason people in cities have high

576
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: lead is because up until the eighties, they were putting

577
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: lead in fuel and that was a soluble lead. So

578
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna go through the whole letter, but it's

579
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: really compelling, but it's like it's this thing where if

580
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: you want this is this thing that happens so much

581
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: in anything contentious, anything political, is if you're pushing for

582
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: a thing that you want to be true, like you're

583
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: sort of pursuing in a gen that you have, and

584
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: you welcome, you welcome information, but then you wind up

585
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: welcoming like somewhat suspect information if it helps make your point.

586
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: And I think that the issue here, the reason we

587
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: keep talking about this is the issue here is as

588
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: management agencies, states, whatever try to mandate a move away

589
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: from LED ammunition, I think it's important, like at least

590
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: tell people the truth. Stop acting like there's a human

591
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: health concern when no one has been able to substantiate it.

592
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: Don't act like there's a population level bald eagle concern

593
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: when nothing substantiates it. If your argument is that if

594
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: you kill a deer with leed amo and leave it out,

595
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: you could kill a bald eagle, have that be that right?

596
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: And people make commutigate this, which this is one of

597
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 3: the there's some things in here that I don't like

598
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 3: the way it's written, and there's some things that they

599
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 3: included that I do like.

600
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: But tell me some of the ones. Tell me tell

601
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: me a highlight of each of those.

602
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 3: So population level effect, right, And we've covered this many times,

603
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: so it'll just be really brief. Right, they are talking

604
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 3: about bald eagles and and most of the and it

605
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 3: seems like all these refuges are in Bald Eagle territory,

606
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 3: and that's the raptor of concern. But if you had

607
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: a refuge system in an area that overlapped with condor populations,

608
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: a condor death could have a population level effect, and

609
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: then it would be necessary to take further precautions, right.

610
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, because a condor is a population, yes, exactly.

611
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 3: The other piece of this is you can mitigate that

612
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 3: raptor eating off your gut pile by removing the guts

613
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 3: from the field or by burying the guts on site.

614
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: So this weekend, and I apologized to some of the

615
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 3: folks I know, but lead kills really well. And I

616
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 3: went out and shot a bunch of upland birds with

617
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 3: seven and a half shot lead, and I made the

618
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: decision to package up, even though I was like way

619
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 3: the hell out on BLM ground. I made the decision

620
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: to remove all the guts and the carcasses from the field.

621
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: So if you're in the heat, you're gutting birds, you're

622
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: gutting into a bag and just throwing the bag into

623
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: your game bag.

624
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: Which eventually became a really horrible, disgusting bag. Yeah, but

625
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 3: it's not gonna go kill something I didn't intend to kill.

626
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 3: So I did like the fact that they provided a

627
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: good alternative, like a common so it's alternative.

628
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then this letter from the NSSFY they applaud

629
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: education efforts. They don't they're not chastising people that are

630
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: making non toxic AMMO. They don't use the word non toxic.

631
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: They're not chastising manufacturers of They're sort of pointing to

632
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: they're sort of applauding the free market economy or the choice,

633
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: but pointing out that I would not have guessed this,

634
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: some of the percentages on some of the percentages on

635
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 1: use of AMMO. Where's this stuff?

636
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 5: Oh the one percent of were you looking at the

637
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 5: rifle ammo?

638
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah?

639
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 5: Where that too?

640
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: That copper is one percent of center fire ammo used? Yep.

641
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: My social circle, like my social circle, which includes people

642
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: that that use copper for a handful of reasons, some

643
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: performance issues, some lead issues. I would it reminds me

644
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: of one when I have a skewed sample size in

645
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: my social circle. I say, we're doing the kids trivia

646
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: and and my younger kid had to guess what percentage

647
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: of kids went fishing during the pandemic, and he thought

648
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: that ninety percent of kids went fishing during the pandemic,

649
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: like he had.

650
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 5: A very skin biases it, Like that's all I did.

651
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 3: That's a friends here.

652
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: It is non non lead.

653
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 5: Center fire rifle ammunition makes up the smallest share of

654
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 5: the market and is approximately one percent of all ammunition produced.

655
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: So yeah, but produced, so that that includes all target sure.

656
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 5: I mean when you're buying a ace of cheap two two.

657
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 10: Three, I'm gonna, you know, just go do some shoot.

658
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make this. I'm gonna make this relevant to

659
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,919
Speaker 1: our guests. Watch this. When you time flies are using

660
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: non toxic Could you ever tie a fly with lead?

661
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: One of the most common means to weigh down to.

662
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: Fly is using lead reps, and you're still using it.

663
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: I use it partially. They have the alternative where it's

664
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: stainless steel to also wait, but and some some patterns,

665
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: the lead works way better. Let a flip shot.

666
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: He's like, lead till I'm dead? Is that what you're

667
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: trying to tell me?

668
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: And then also wait with the split shots.

669
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: Yep.

670
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 4: It also wraps really nice.

671
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: Yes, it does, it does. I would view I would

672
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 1: imagine that. I would imagine that the amount of you

673
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: see fishing get rolled into this I I do not

674
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: see this being fishing this problem, do you know what

675
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: I mean?

676
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a very few states to help all lead weights.

677
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: I mean New York was one of them. I went

678
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: out there for some lake run salmon and I was

679
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: missing some weights, so I went to the local tackle

680
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: shop to get some, and all they had was the alternate.

681
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, what the hell? I had no idea kind

682
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: of like blindsided me that I couldn't get lead weights.

683
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: I get the leads. So just for folks, listen, when

684
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: we started talking about lead split shot, it's a different thing.

685
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: Lead split shot is not. There's different ways that lead

686
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: gets introduced into to wildlife center fire like deer Okay,

687
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: deer hunting, that's introduced because you shoot the deer and

688
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: you got the deer and your bullet fragments and is

689
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: led around. You leave the guts whatever. Later on you

690
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: throw the bones in the ditch, stuff eats that they

691
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: ingest lead unintentionally, split shot and steal shot or sorry

692
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: back when you could use lead to hunt ducks. In

693
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: split shot, you have it can enter an animal by

694
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: an animal could get hit by a chunk of that

695
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: lead and not be lethal. Then it has lead in it,

696
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: but they pick it up as grit so or they

697
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: pick it up they just see something shiny and different

698
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: and they're down there feeding and they ingest it. So

699
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: the lead sinker thing is that they're just intentionally ingesting it.

700
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: It's not getting like blasted into something. It's being picked up,

701
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: not eaten along with flesh. Is that clear?

702
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 5: And I think a lot of time, a lot of

703
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 5: times they're just picking it up as they're feeding on

704
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 5: the bike.

705
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 2: It just happens to end up and.

706
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: Happens oh yep, got it as straining through the bottom.

707
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: But I just, man, uh, I just feel that the

708
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: fishing thing has to be just like almost a non issue.

709
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 5: I think there's places where there's a carpet of leadhead

710
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 5: jigs on the bottom of certain places.

711
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I can name a few.

712
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: I could go there, But I mean I could name

713
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,439
Speaker 1: one Lincott home that's got about forty pounds in my leg.

714
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 5: But you know what I think is interesting about this

715
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 5: is the NSF nss F is weighing in on something

716
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 5: from the Wildlife Service, this agenda, But that agenda had

717
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 5: to come from outside.

718
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 1: You think it's being imposed on the Wildlife Service.

719
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 2: I don't know.

720
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. No, it might be you know,

721
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: like the stuff in Alaska with them trying to with

722
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: them trying to subvert Alaska's ability to manage its wildlife. Right,

723
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: that came from on high for sure. That came from like,

724
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist generally speaking, but

725
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: I believe that that was driven by donors. That that

726
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: was driven by Now, when you see something in politics,

727
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: it's so like, what do you remember when who the

728
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: hell was it that got elected for mayor New York?

729
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: And right away he goes after the Central Park horse

730
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: carriage rides. Oh yeah, de Blasio wins to become mayor

731
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,240
Speaker 1: of New York and his first thing is Central Park

732
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: carriage rides. He's sort of like, this has to be

733
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: from a donor. It's so out there and so outside

734
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: of the concerns of voters and so outside of what

735
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: your mandate must have been when you were elected that

736
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: there's no way this wasn't a quid pro quo from

737
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: a donor.

738
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: Class.

739
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:43,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't even really.

740
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: Everybody in the city is like what, Yeah.

741
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 4: That's what I'm thinking right now. I don't really understand,

742
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 4: like what like he just didn't like the horse that.

743
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: They were mean to the horses in Central Park, Meaning

744
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: it was so outside of anyone's concern, It was so

745
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: outside of the campaig and you get it, and you're

746
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: like that is like I don't know this for sure,

747
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: but that is satisfying a particular donor who made a

748
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: deal like.

749
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 4: Set the horses free. Kind of Yeah, I.

750
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 5: Mean I don't know, cal Do you know of like

751
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 5: outside forces that were pushing this agenda or is it just.

752
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 3: I mean, the the lead free thing has been around

753
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 3: for a really long time. The refuge system has certainly

754
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 3: like a lot more traffic, right like think of like

755
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 3: the bird watching community and refuges, So there could certainly

756
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 3: be some lobbying from from different groups there for sure,

757
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 3: you know. I I do think about like the where

758
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 3: we were hunting seek a deer, Like think of the

759
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 3: amount of copper in you know, like a fifty col

760
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 3: Muzzleoderu Sabbot or whatever or the equivalent like twelve gage.

761
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a the chunk of that's a big

762
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 3: chunk of copper. Like that's not just falling out of

763
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 3: the sky, that's we're digging that out of the ground

764
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 3: there too.

765
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: That's the thing to have cost, right. So that's the

766
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: point this letter raises, is that lead as comes from

767
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: recycled car batteries. Lead ammunition comes from recycled car batteries.

768
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: And it points up just the tooling and sourcing. Meaning

769
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:30,959
Speaker 1: if all you know, it's a little bit like uh, extremes,

770
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 1: if all states right now were to somehow miraculously say

771
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 1: that you couldn't use lead ammunition, there's no way they

772
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: would ever satisfy. It would take a long time for

773
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: the demand to be said.

774
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 4: A hard time to find any bullets.

775
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: The letter is a little punchy, says the service's unsubstantiated

776
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,719
Speaker 1: statement of possible risk to hunters due to the use

777
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: of lead component ammunition to harvest game is very concerning,

778
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 1: and it goes on to it goes on to attack

779
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: this this thing that came out years ago. I remember

780
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: when it came out, was like X rays of deer

781
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: showing how many, how much, how much lead fragmentation.

782
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 5: From the wound channel.

783
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: But then it goes on to say that they never

784
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: substantiated this leg fragmentation. Their jack, it's a jacketed AMMO,

785
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: and all they're doing is showing that something showed up

786
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 1: on an X ray, but no biopsy to show what

787
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: or no digging around to show what it was. It

788
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: was on the x ray, and then the study was

789
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: only done with one specific kind of ammunition and then

790
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: extrap so they do a study with one specific lead

791
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: ammunition and loaded in a certain way out of a

792
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 1: seven mili remmag and then they take what is there

793
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: and then extrapulate out that all harvested venison has blank right,

794
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 1: even though there's this huge variation and how people harvest

795
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 1: venison and all the ammunitions used. But the statistic came

796
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: from a study in which only one type of ammunition

797
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 1: was used.

798
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean, sometimes you know I've shot I

799
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 4: have a seven meg. Sometimes, you know, you shoot a

800
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 4: certain bullet out of there and the thing blows up,

801
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 4: you know, and it lead everywhere. Other times, just yeap,

802
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 4: clean a whistle.

803
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: If I punched Brody ten times and gave them seven

804
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: black eyes.

805
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: A lot of lead money, would you.

806
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: Be able to say all punches seventy percent of all

807
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: punches result in the black eye. I might have talked

808
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,439
Speaker 1: about this for too long, but again I just want

809
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 1: to continue to make a clear man. If you as

810
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: an individual, Like if you, as an individual, don't like

811
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: the idea of the of that you leave your gut

812
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: pile out. You know, if you're using certain if you're

813
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: using that ammunition and you leave your gut pile out,

814
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: there is a chance that you will kill a raptor.

815
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: Bear that in mind and behave accordingly, you might decide

816
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: that you don't care about I think that most people

817
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: thinking about it, like that gut pile right there, Like

818
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: that gut pile that I'm walking away from right now

819
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 1: has a chance of killing a rat, like it actually

820
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: killing a raptor.

821
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 4: No one ever, really, not a lot of people think.

822
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: No of that. No, you have that in the back

823
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: of your head, and have that in the back of

824
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: your head. If more people had that in the back

825
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: of their head. This speaking of cause and you know,

826
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: causal relationships, I'm just going to go out on a

827
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: limit and say, hypothetically true, if more people had that

828
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: in the back of their head, we might not be

829
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: talking about ammunition bands right now. I don't know is

830
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: that a wild statement.

831
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a wild statement. We'd certainly because

832
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: you know, there's a statement in this that I would

833
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 3: follow in the list of things that I don't really

834
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: like the way it was written into this letter. There's

835
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 3: a really specific study on falcons eating lead paint off

836
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 3: of water towers where these falcons nested, And in this

837
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 3: letter it kind of says like, all birds land on

838
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 3: water towers and build nests on water towers and eat

839
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 3: lead off of water towers. But if you talk to

840
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: the bird people, they're like, it's not all birds. There's

841
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 3: two super smart birds out there, falcons and vultures that

842
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 3: have a lot of free time because they are very

843
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 3: smart and very efficient at what they do, and they

844
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 3: mess around a lot and consequently getting a lot of trouble.

845
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: Got it. Do you know we have a great horned

846
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: owl roost.

847
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 3: Under our saw the picture that awesome.

848
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, he lives in the He lives in the eve supports.

849
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 5: Must You don't ever see skunks or raccoons or anything

850
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 5: wandering around.

851
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 9: You know.

852
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 3: It's a fun parallel here for our guest is the

853
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 3: fact that the millinery trade was one of the things

854
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 3: that absolutely decimated all types of birds, mostly pretty birds,

855
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 3: all across the world. Uh and fly tying has its

856
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 3: hands in that.

857
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of blood on your hands. Buddy, it's

858
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,399
Speaker 1: a long letter. Oh Phil hit us with the fish

859
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: and lures song. He'll appreciate this, son, Am I saying

860
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: your name right? Son? This is one of the best

861
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: songs ever written. It really is. This guy is the

862
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 1: weird al of fishing.

863
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 3: Email here, which was a niche we had?

864
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 1: You've had You've had how many hours to get this

865
00:49:59,000 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: thing scored?

866
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 3: Only kind of little Jimmy Buffett vibe.

867
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 2: Baby, this was not what I was respecting.

868
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 1: Love fishing.

869
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 11: I love to cast them while I'm drinking a course

870
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 11: for a while on the rocks and drinking the doors. Clever,

871
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 11: little mechanic, cold works of all.

872
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: I love fishing.

873
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 2: Scott wouldn't want any fewer. I'm a better fisher man

874
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: than you are.

875
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 11: When I'm at the morning good store, I love loading

876
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 11: up my call.

877
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,720
Speaker 3: This guy who's like I can rhyme anything.

878
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: Give yeah, just gonna cover it, tremble hook. Sometimes your

879
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: lime gets not in some blooded some skitter on top

880
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: of the water. Look at that big mass. I'm glad

881
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: that I caught her. This guy's got a Rhydey dictionary.

882
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: It's like Eminem. I think Eminem stole all his ship

883
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: and this guy.

884
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 2: Some of the red all.

885
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 11: Kinds of exotic coups as your boating paddle.

886
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: The solo is amazing, love.

887
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 3: Can you imagine him doing that with one hand while

888
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 3: he's recording here.

889
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 11: I would be poor, so so effective. I think I

890
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 11: could catch fishing the sewer design.

891
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: Little These are real crooners joining.

892
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: That professional mass fishing.

893
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 3: I can see some success, like doing the old folks homes,

894
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: like in around like something.

895
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: He's from buying Falls Michigan the Artist.

896
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 5: Uh oh, your buddy should get him to tour around

897
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 5: with the barge.

898
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 7: For a like three time Cola.

899
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: George Peter Block, Junior Boying Falls, Michigan's the Artist. Unbelievable artistry.

900
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: You think those flys are cool? That song.

901
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 5: That's Grammy material, That's just unbelievable.

902
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna give this ship up now.

903
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're gonna like you're like, I went into

904
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: the wrong business. I should have been a songwriter. All right,

905
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: let's let's die back in, walk me through getting from well,

906
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: let me let me let me do a quick recap. Uh,

907
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: just because people might so blown away by that song.

908
00:52:58,640 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 4: It's hard to focus.

909
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 1: Your father fought, Your father fought for the n R no.

910
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 2: How's it go in our the South Vietnamese Army h

911
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 2: N r v N r v N was it?

912
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: No, no, no no.

913
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 2: The n v A was the the opposite opposition A

914
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: r v N. I guess I know.

915
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,399
Speaker 1: Southamese Army got South Vietnamese Army.

916
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

917
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: You were born the year before the US pulled out

918
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: of Vietnam. Yes, US pulls out of Vietnam. Your family

919
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: was from the south of Vietnam. The Communists came from

920
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: the north. Your father saw the writing on the wall

921
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: that he would wind up in a re education camp

922
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: or wind up executed. Yep, you guys, flee, have a

923
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: treacherous journey to Malaysia. Correct, apply for asylum all over

924
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: the world, and get asylum in the US. Correct. But

925
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: here's what part of a little curious about. Uh did

926
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: you did your father Like did your father have colleagues, friends,

927
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: whatever that he met from the US military or was

928
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: he not working hand in hand with the US military

929
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: during the war. Uh?

930
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 2: He did prior to the actual official US involvement. I

931
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 2: don't know, like all the details of it, but I

932
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: know like in the fifties he had worked with some

933
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 2: of the initial advisors that came over to the Vietnam

934
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 2: and then from my recollections, I believe it was some

935
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 2: of them that helped get.

936
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: Us got okay. So that's what I wanted to jump to,

937
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: is how you at this point you're in Malaysia and

938
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: you're how old?

939
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 2: Uh got there? I was about four and a half.

940
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 1: Okay, fly tie and not on your mind?

941
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 2: I was staring at with sardines.

942
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: Sardines on your mind? And then you come to the

943
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: US and what happens like like, how did you get accepted?

944
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: You get your asylum, gets accepted, and all of a sudden,

945
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: what a plane shows up? How does that work? You're

946
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: in a you're in a refugee camp in Malaysia, Like

947
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,919
Speaker 1: how does it you get a letter saying you've been

948
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: given asylum in the US?

949
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 10: Well?

950
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: Then then what uh?

951
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 2: Like I said it was, I don't know like all

952
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: the details, but that Menna knit family from Lancaster, Pennsylvania

953
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 2: helped us with the paperwork and then eventually got us

954
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 2: onto the plane where we end up landing in California

955
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: and then was there for a couple of years while

956
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 2: I guess with getting our green cards and all that

957
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 2: other stuff.

958
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 1: And then how many family members, five total.

959
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: My brother was born in the refuge camp, so I

960
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 2: got a younger brother, a younger sister, and mom and dad. Okay,

961
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 2: and then eventually that that Men and Night community got

962
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: us over to Lancaster, Pennsylvania and helped my parents find

963
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 2: work and whatnot out there.

964
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 1: And how what in the world did you get like,

965
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: how did you ever even get introduced to fishing?

966
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: Well? When I was when I was a young kid,

967
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: basically being an immigrant, I didn't have all the luxuries

968
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,240
Speaker 2: of most other kids where parents spoil them with toys

969
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 2: or whatnot. So here was poor. We were poor shit,

970
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 2: and so we were playing like with sticks or hand

971
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: me downs and whatnot. And then my first fishing round

972
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 2: was like some old Shakespeare spitting a rod that my

973
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 2: neighbor couldn't sell from a garad sale and he gave

974
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: it to me.

975
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: You know, you're into the real bottom end tackle, one

976
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: of the shit that doesn't sell out a garage sale.

977
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 1: Like when you go to a garage sale and you

978
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: look at the rod and choose not to buy that rod.

979
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: That's a rough rod.

980
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, from what I recall, we had like thirty pound

981
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: test line on it. I know the difference between four

982
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:43,839
Speaker 2: pound test line and eighty pound test line. Back then,

983
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: all I knew was that I could use it to

984
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:46,240
Speaker 2: catch fish.

985
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: And then the guy gives it to you.

986
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, he gave it to me. And then where I

987
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 2: grew up there, there was a small creek that runs

988
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 2: through the area. It was only gosh, maybe half a

989
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 2: mile from my house. It runs through the little community

990
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,280
Speaker 2: park there and h Connostova River and in there everything

991
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 2: from car up to all sorts of panfish and smallmouth

992
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 2: pass and the homeline yards, and so that's where I

993
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: pretty much spent most of my my child who was

994
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 2: just basically fishing there that that creek.

995
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: Were you self taught?

996
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah.

997
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: Were there other Vietnamese dudes running around or was it

998
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: just your family?

999
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: I think we were the only minorities in the whole town, Right.

1000
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: Did you guys feel some pressure on that or were

1001
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: people pretty accepting?

1002
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 2: People are very accepting.

1003
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, they probably knew the history too, right, Yeah.

1004
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 2: Like Pennsylvania gets a bad rep because of like the

1005
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 2: Lester right, because of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, but everywhere in

1006
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,919
Speaker 2: between it is very very conservative. And that's how that

1007
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 2: that community was a very conservative community. And then the kids,

1008
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: they pretty much everybody just took them in. So there

1009
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 2: were a couple of kids there that went to the

1010
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 2: same school, most of them were on the older side.

1011
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 2: And then a lot of them helped me out too

1012
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 2: by basically just showing me some of the ropes.

1013
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: Do you this has enough to do with time flies

1014
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: or fishing, but do you feel when you were growing

1015
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 1: up and and and you were young and Vietnam was

1016
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: still fresh for people, what did you encounter like a

1017
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: feeling did you encounter among Americans? A like like a

1018
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: guilt for withdrawing Vietnam? Like when people met your dad, Okay,

1019
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: people meet your dad, and your dad served in the

1020
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 1: South Vietnamese Army, was there sort of an implied like,

1021
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: oh man, I'm sorry, no that thing.

1022
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 2: No not maybe if I had growing up somewhere else,

1023
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 2: But like I said, the area I grew up in,

1024
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 2: it was very conservative. People kept their opinions themselves. They

1025
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 2: pretty much left you alone, unless you know they you

1026
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: got involved in their business.

1027
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: Uh huh.

1028
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 2: So people had opinions, they kept it themselves. So I

1029
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 2: really didn't experience it any of that. If if my

1030
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 2: parents did, they shielded us from it.

1031
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: Yep.

1032
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 2: So growing up, growing up, going through school, well, I

1033
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 2: mean I really resaw.

1034
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: That got it. But you were the only Vietnamese kid around.

1035
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And were you raised around people who weren't

1036
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: Mennonite too.

1037
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like this, Uh, they're actually the very small

1038
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: minority there. There's uh Menonites, there's there's Amish, and then

1039
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 2: there's obviously all the other Christian non denominations and whatnot.

1040
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 2: So the school I went to, I mean I think

1041
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 2: there was maybe ten twelve minorities all together with the

1042
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 2: class of about a thousand, So it was predominantly Caucasian area.

1043
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: And I really didn't have any friends growing up there

1044
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: were other minorities. It was all the kids that I

1045
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 2: ran around with were all the Caucasian kids.

1046
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: And they these were kids that grew up hunting, fishing.

1047
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably one of the reasons why I listened

1048
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 2: to country music. Also, very confused.

1049
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: Did your folks have any sense of did your folks

1050
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: have any sense of fishing as a as a sort

1051
00:59:57,640 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: of recreational pastime.

1052
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: They didn't care as long as I was bringing fish home.

1053
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: Oh so they liked the fish.

1054
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, like my culture, they we don't waste anything and

1055
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,919
Speaker 2: I catch a fish, they ate it. So I didn't

1056
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 2: know the difference between what was a good any fish

1057
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 2: and what was.

1058
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: A horrible mudfish.

1059
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 2: If I caught it, I brought it home. I mean,

1060
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:15,919
Speaker 2: like a lot of fishermen out there is like they catch,

1061
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 2: they keep everything they catch, the conservation and none of

1062
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 2: that shit was really in the back of my mind

1063
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 2: as a kid. I mean, I brought carp home, and

1064
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 2: then it was finally my mom was like, don't bring

1065
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 2: this shit on anymore because.

1066
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 1: She got picky.

1067
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 2: She got picky because it's so hard to clean because

1068
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 2: there's so many bones in it. All I saw was

1069
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 2: just a big fat fished everybody.

1070
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,479
Speaker 1: So let's say you brought a carp home. How would

1071
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: she prepared it when you were a kid? What were

1072
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: you eating?

1073
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 2: I think it was basically drowned in a lot of

1074
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 2: fish sauce and other seasonings to actually get rid of

1075
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 2: some of the mud taste at it. From my recollection,

1076
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 2: I only recall eating it a handful of times, and

1077
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 2: then she complained about it, and I never kept the

1078
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 2: carp again.

1079
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 1: So what if you brought a bluegill back or a

1080
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: small off pass back the way we prepared was.

1081
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,439
Speaker 2: A little bit diff where generally American culture they'll filay

1082
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 2: the fish, you just eat the flats, and then with

1083
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 2: a lot of the Asian cultures, they'll got to take

1084
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 2: the gills out and whatnot, cut the fins off, and

1085
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,919
Speaker 2: then they'll either broil or defried the entire fish after

1086
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 2: the scales are obviously removed. The like probably one of

1087
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:18,919
Speaker 2: the tastiest part is the crispy skin.

1088
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: No, uh, you were getting introduced to American style food though.

1089
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean at home almost everything was still

1090
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 2: Vietnamese food. But we were getting the slow introduction because

1091
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 2: like as a poor kid, I got foods the meal tickets,

1092
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 2: so all my lunches were the basically cafeteria food, and

1093
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 2: that's vast majority of the introduction I had to American food,

1094
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 2: where I thought that slop was like great, yeah.

1095
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 3: Like Salisbury.

1096
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 8: What'd your mom do with the her mom and or

1097
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 8: dad do with like the squirrels and deer and other

1098
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 8: stuff because he was hunting in a lot.

1099
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 2: You're un small game too, Yeah, I mean, uh, it

1100
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 2: was very very different being forty nine years old and

1101
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 2: when I grew up where I was riding my little

1102
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 2: bike with a shotgun on my shoulder for five miles

1103
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: next down to go hunting, and nobody would think any different.

1104
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 2: And I mean there were times where I rode my

1105
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 2: bike by the sheriff, like we had one sheriff in

1106
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:14,919
Speaker 2: the town and waved him good luck.

1107
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 5: Were you were you self taught on the hunting thing too,

1108
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 5: or do you have buddies you ran around with?

1109
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: Or I started basically just.

1110
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 2: Squirrels were the first thing that we shot, yep. And

1111
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 2: I didn't have a weapon at that point, like a

1112
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 2: rifle or a shotgun, so neighbors let me won yep.

1113
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: That's how it went.

1114
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 2: Back then teach me how to use it. So I

1115
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 2: kind of figured how to use it on my own.

1116
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 2: I mean I took it out to the back of

1117
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 2: a farm they had gave me some twenty two rounds

1118
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: and figured out how to use a rifle. Common sense

1119
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 2: was a big thing too, like, you know, this thing's

1120
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:51,720
Speaker 2: gonna fire a bullet. Might want to aim in a

1121
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 2: place where I'm not gonna kill myself. So I figured

1122
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 2: out how to use it. And then as time went

1123
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 2: by and some of the other caliber weapons and whatnot.

1124
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 2: Then I was taught by either the friends or their

1125
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 2: dads and whatnot. But my first my first rifle I

1126
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 2: shot was the twenty two and that was self taught

1127
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 2: and the same day with a shotgun. They handed me

1128
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 2: a shotgun, this twenty gage shotgun, I don't remember what brand,

1129
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 2: and just put the round here and pulled the trigger.

1130
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: Did your siblings get into it?

1131
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:21,480
Speaker 2: Now? They're like one eighty of me. I mean, if

1132
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 2: you pictured, you were just like you were.

1133
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: You were just obsessed as a kid. But it wasn't

1134
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 1: universal in the family.

1135
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you met me and my siblings, you would

1136
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 2: think I was adopted.

1137
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: Because of what they're into.

1138
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, their total opposite is I mean, they're your your

1139
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 2: typical nine to five professional CPAs and finance And even

1140
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 2: when I mean I started off down that route when

1141
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 2: I finished college and then went and worked out for

1142
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 2: RCA own by Thompson Multimedia when I was an engineer,

1143
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 2: and but in the back of my mind, I was

1144
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 2: always just looking forward to getting off work so I

1145
01:03:57,360 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 2: could go fishing or go a hundred. It was a

1146
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 2: means to do what I wanted to do. Where both

1147
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 2: my brother and sister, you know, that's that's their career

1148
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 2: and that's what they enjoy. To me, working has always

1149
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 2: be been a means and tellten until I joined the military.

1150
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: That was yeah what, Uh you went to college first?

1151
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went to college first. And then uh those

1152
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 2: years where they're kind of boring, was more or less

1153
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 2: just focuses on study. And then where'd you go to school? Lehigh?

1154
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 2: And then uh from there we uh just went to work.

1155
01:04:27,760 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 2: And then it provided an astronomical amount of money for

1156
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 2: a kid that my age, that had nothing before.

1157
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: So did you have a lot of pressure from your

1158
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 1: folks to go to school? Oh?

1159
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 2: God, yeah, like if we didn't get like they were

1160
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 2: into the whole American dream thing and all that. Yeah,

1161
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 2: I mean the stereo type for most Asian families. If

1162
01:04:43,720 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 2: you're not a doctor, you're not a lawyer, you're not

1163
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:51,960
Speaker 2: my kid. So, uh, there's always been a lot of pressure.

1164
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 2: They always guild us with the fact that you know,

1165
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 2: we gave up everything to give you guys a better life,

1166
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 2: and they would give trip the shit out of us.

1167
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 4: Doesn't fall into that category.

1168
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,480
Speaker 2: Uh no, but it does play big part into turning

1169
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 2: me into who I am today. Because of the upbringing

1170
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 2: I had and the rules and the strictness that my

1171
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:12,760
Speaker 2: parents had and whatnot.

1172
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 1: Give me an example of the overrule the strictness.

1173
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 2: Basically, eat everything you have on your plate. So I

1174
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 2: was raised never the waste food.

1175
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 1: Because you guys knew starvation man.

1176
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 2: And so even to this day, even I do not

1177
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 2: like what is before what's in front of me, I

1178
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 2: will force myself to finish it. And sometimes it gets

1179
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 2: me pretty difficult, like and where my travel is going

1180
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 2: through Europe or some of these trying some of these

1181
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 2: local cuisines that I was just like, I would still

1182
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 2: force myself to eat it. And then so that's basically

1183
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 2: Appreciate what you have is another one because you never

1184
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 2: know when it's gonna be all taken away. So basically

1185
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 2: try not to take anything for granted. Yeah, like always

1186
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 2: just live in that moment per se. Uh. My first

1187
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: time coming here to Montana several years ago, I always

1188
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 2: like envisioned what Montana was like, and it was that

1189
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 2: way because my first experience with Montana wasn'm Bozeman. It

1190
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 2: was going up the Twin Bridges and then floating the

1191
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 2: Smith River and then saw on the beauty that Lewis

1192
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 2: and Clark National Forest had being surrounded by nature and

1193
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 2: the river and you're just with that small group of people,

1194
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 2: not massive crowds. So what I had picture of Montana

1195
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,479
Speaker 2: was gonna be like was what I experienced. Now years

1196
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 2: later I realized Montana isn't always like that going through

1197
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 2: Yellowstone or the Madison River and then you got people everywhere,

1198
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 2: and it's one of the most popular tourist destinations. But

1199
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 2: it never changed the fact that I know what Montana

1200
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 2: has to offer, and then each time I come here,

1201
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 2: I try not to take it for granted. I just

1202
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 2: appreciate each day here and again that comes from the

1203
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 2: upbringing that I had for my parents.

1204
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: So what was it your decision like to get in

1205
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: the military.

1206
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 2: Well, nine to eleven happened. I was working. I think

1207
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 2: I had just gotten back from Paris. The like I said,

1208
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 2: the company zoned by Thompson, So I would spend several

1209
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 2: months at the year traveling to France, to Poland, to

1210
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 2: Mexico where they had their their factories. So anytime that

1211
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 2: we completed something with R and D, we would go

1212
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 2: out there implement that technology into the factories in the

1213
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 2: assembly lines and troubleshoot. And they were an engineer, yeah,

1214
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 2: in the applications engineering department, where we basically would took

1215
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 2: the pretty much the final products of everything that the

1216
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 2: physics labs and everybody else put together, and then we

1217
01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:33,240
Speaker 2: made the final product what it is. So nine to

1218
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 2: eleven happened. It was like a lot of people, you know,

1219
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 2: waking up turning on the news and I was like,

1220
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 2: what the hell? And I literally didn't I mean I

1221
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 2: don't think anybody went to work that day and I

1222
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 2: was set there, glued.

1223
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: To the TV.

1224
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:48,959
Speaker 2: So like most other people, I felt bad. I wanted

1225
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 2: to do something. I went and gave blood. I mean,

1226
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 2: there was a lineup there were to give blood. So

1227
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 2: I gave blood, and I felt that still wasn't enough.

1228
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 2: And then I was thinking about things I could possibly

1229
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 2: do to to help like basically America. And then I

1230
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 2: got that phone call from also my dad, and he's like, hey,

1231
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 2: you you really needed to do something to join the

1232
01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 2: military or something to pay back our you know, our

1233
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 2: family's debt to the US.

1234
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: Because where was he calling from.

1235
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 4: Uh?

1236
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 2: Well, at that point, my parents were divorced because all

1237
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 2: the years that they spent working all these long hours,

1238
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 2: their relationship kind of like just like uh disappeared. And

1239
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 2: at that point, you know, the kids are all growing up,

1240
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 2: so they were divorced. But I don't know exactly where

1241
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 2: he was calling from, but he just told me that

1242
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 2: I had to do something because I was the oldest,

1243
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 2: and oh, really, yeah, I'm the oldest, and I don't

1244
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 2: know if I should say this, but my brother's two

1245
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,759
Speaker 2: week and my sister's a girl, so it was really

1246
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 2: up to me. And then h I had already thought

1247
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 2: about it a little bit, but that kind of like

1248
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 2: pushed me over the edge. And then literally the very

1249
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 2: next week, I was down in the Army recruiting station

1250
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,080
Speaker 2: and uh submitted my two week notice to the company.

1251
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 2: Everybody thought that I was no uts because it was

1252
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 2: one of those companies that you got there and people

1253
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 2: left when they died, because it was really good company

1254
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 2: to work for. They gave you like thirty days vacation

1255
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 2: a year and another thirty days of six days, so

1256
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:11,880
Speaker 2: literally you have sixty days year where you didn't have

1257
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,519
Speaker 2: to shut the work and still got paid. It was hourly,

1258
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 2: very very good wages, where like the average media income

1259
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania back then or Lancaster then was about twenty

1260
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:22,840
Speaker 2: four thousand, and I was making way more than that,

1261
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 2: so I was able to go do all these great

1262
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 2: things that I absolutely love and not I ever have

1263
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 2: to worry about the cause like muskie fishing. I mean

1264
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 2: I was a fly fishing back then, but going up

1265
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:37,120
Speaker 2: to Canada or going to the Codes to shoot wild

1266
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 2: game and hunting wherever I wanted because I really didn't

1267
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 2: have any school, loans or anything. And it was a

1268
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:45,519
Speaker 2: tough decision because I knew I had to give all

1269
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:48,240
Speaker 2: that up. Another part was the fishing, and I fished

1270
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 2: a lot in the chest speak literally like when it

1271
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 2: was a hunt season, after work, I would drive an

1272
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 2: hour and a half down to the Chesapeake Bay and

1273
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 2: go after stripe bass to call them rock fished out

1274
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 2: there at the East Coast, or go flounder, or go

1275
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:00,639
Speaker 2: and grabbing with some of my friends. And I knew

1276
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 2: all that was going to go away, because I mean

1277
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:05,360
Speaker 2: I wasn't a idiot. I looked up the salary difference,

1278
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 2: and I knew that going from over sixty thousand a

1279
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 2: year down to basically making like twelve hundred dollars a

1280
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 2: month was going to be a drastic change in lifestyle.

1281
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 2: But it was the plan was only going to be

1282
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,720
Speaker 2: three years and so and then you would.

1283
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 1: But you went in as a trained engineer. But you

1284
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 1: didn't go and become a you didn't be like, I

1285
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 1: want to be in the corps.

1286
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 8: No.

1287
01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:27,920
Speaker 2: The way I looked at it was, uh, well the

1288
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:28,960
Speaker 2: corps was a different story.

1289
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:31,719
Speaker 1: So they were actually I mean the Army Corps of Engineers.

1290
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 2: Sorry, but the Marine Corps was the first one to

1291
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:36,400
Speaker 2: a corps. Yeah, but the recruiter was was a lazy

1292
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 2: son of a bitch, and he wanted me to run

1293
01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,519
Speaker 2: the background check and my fingerprints. He was actually having

1294
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 2: me do all this stuff, and I was I thought

1295
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 2: that was what you're supposed to do. So it was

1296
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 2: actually coming back to the Marine Corps recruiting station with

1297
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:48,599
Speaker 2: all these documents and whatnot, and then I found out

1298
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 2: I was missing something and I had to go again.

1299
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 2: And then the Army guy was out there puffing on

1300
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:54,559
Speaker 2: a cigarette and he's like, hey, what are you doing?

1301
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 2: And then he told me I'll take care of all

1302
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 2: of that for you. Like, oh, what do you guys

1303
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:00,800
Speaker 2: have to offer? And they're like, well, there's college loan

1304
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 2: repayment and all this other stuff. And so went in

1305
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 2: there talk to him a little bit. He sold sold me.

1306
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 2: This guy was willing to cater everything to take care

1307
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 2: of all the paperwork, and I literally just had to

1308
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:13,000
Speaker 2: show up and I was like, this is totally different

1309
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 2: the Marines. These guys really wanted me. So I was like,

1310
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 2: I knew the Marines had the grunts. Armies also had

1311
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 2: the grunts. I was like, all right, I'll go Army

1312
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 2: because everybody that pictures, you know, the fighting force, they

1313
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 2: always think Marine Corps first, and that was that was

1314
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 2: the same way. And then he told me all the

1315
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:30,000
Speaker 2: different things that the Army had to offer and I

1316
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 2: ended up signing with the military. Now, everybody blames their

1317
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 2: recruiter for their miserable life in the military.

1318
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 1: They never lied to me.

1319
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, But the difference was my recruiter actually was a

1320
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,240
Speaker 2: really good guy, and he was actually trying to talk

1321
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,680
Speaker 2: me out of going to the infantry because I had

1322
01:11:45,720 --> 01:11:48,799
Speaker 2: maxed out my ASVABA. My scores were off the charts

1323
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 2: and I could have done anything. They were offering me

1324
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:57,560
Speaker 2: all these military intelligence MOS's the job, along with civil affairs,

1325
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 2: all the stuff that requires high test scores. And I

1326
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 2: was like, no, if I'm gonna give up three years

1327
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 2: of my life to make a difference, put where the

1328
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:07,599
Speaker 2: fight's at. Put a rifle my head, and I chose

1329
01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 2: to join the infantry with the mindset it was only

1330
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:13,680
Speaker 2: be just three years. And uh, because if I was

1331
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 2: gonna join, I wanted to deploy and the them West

1332
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 2: that was the highest rated deployed was eleven bravo as

1333
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 2: an infantryman. And that's what I selected. MHM, Hindsight's twenty twenty.

1334
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 3: You know what you asked for.

1335
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 2: I got what I asked for and for. But uh,

1336
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 2: to all the young kids out there that might be

1337
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 2: thinking about the military, really consider your life choices. Infantry

1338
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 2: is very rewarding. You're gonna have a brotherhood of people

1339
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 2: and the combat of arms that you will never experience

1340
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 2: anywhere else. Do a lot of cool shit, and you're

1341
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 2: gonna do a lot of stuff that's really gonna test

1342
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 2: your psych and your your body. However, there's gonna be

1343
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 2: sacrifices that you're gonna give up, and that number one

1344
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:56,800
Speaker 2: sacrifice is going to be your body in your brain.

1345
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:58,720
Speaker 2: If you're willing to give up. That sacrifice is.

1346
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:00,559
Speaker 1: The the body you gotta give up. The body and

1347
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 1: the brain you're gonna give up.

1348
01:13:01,920 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 3: Both those are two big.

1349
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:07,040
Speaker 2: Parts what's left because after twenty two years of service.

1350
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 2: I've already had eleven surgeries to fix all sorts of

1351
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 2: different elements by me I have. I may look very

1352
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:14,559
Speaker 2: young for a forty nine year old, but I probably

1353
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:16,639
Speaker 2: have the body of a sixty year old. And then

1354
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 2: your brain will also start start failing you too, because

1355
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:23,519
Speaker 2: you're gonna go through some some really troubling times when

1356
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 2: you're gonna you're gonna have to have some metal fortitude

1357
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:28,639
Speaker 2: or intestinal fortitude alone. Was a metal strength to overcome

1358
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 2: a lot of the shit that you deal with in

1359
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:30,400
Speaker 2: the infantry.

1360
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 6: But it is a very ruarding mos at uh.

1361
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:44,439
Speaker 1: I want to keep on the chronology, but let me

1362
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 1: ask you this. At this point nine to eleven you

1363
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:53,479
Speaker 1: going into the infantry, are you just eating and sleeping,

1364
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 1: fly tying.

1365
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 2: I wasn't even touching that yet once you're aware to

1366
01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:00,439
Speaker 2: some of it at this point right, nothing, I mean,

1367
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:02,639
Speaker 2: you know, there is such a thing as a fly rod.

1368
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,720
Speaker 2: For like ten years, my first ten years I was,

1369
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:08,160
Speaker 2: I was gone a lot, so when I got back,

1370
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:09,920
Speaker 2: I'll spent more less.

1371
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 1: Where all did you get sent to?

1372
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:18,120
Speaker 2: Iraq, Afghanistan, Southern Philippines, Kuwait, so Middle East? When I

1373
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 2: got back, my first duty station was Korea. I was

1374
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 2: really upset because they weren't deploying all they do.

1375
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:25,719
Speaker 1: But that's really common though, right, Yeah.

1376
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 2: It's really common. A lot of first assignments there are

1377
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,800
Speaker 2: to places that you actually don't deploy out of and

1378
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:33,519
Speaker 2: then your next one. Now, the fortunate thing for me

1379
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 2: and my mindset back then was it was only a

1380
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 2: year and then I was able to pick whatever assignment

1381
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 2: I want. So I knew that Hawaii was getting ready

1382
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:41,600
Speaker 2: to go.

1383
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:42,439
Speaker 1: Because did you.

1384
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 3: Get bumped up in rank because of your education?

1385
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1386
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 2: I came in as a specialist four on an E

1387
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 2: won the E nine scale.

1388
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 1: I got another totally off the off subject, not off subject,

1389
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:58,680
Speaker 1: but out of chronology when you were in So, when

1390
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:03,719
Speaker 1: you're stationed in Korea and you had time off, would

1391
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:07,560
Speaker 1: you drank? No? But can you with your background and

1392
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,280
Speaker 1: your family, would it be inadvisable for you to go

1393
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 1: to Vietnam?

1394
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:15,800
Speaker 2: Actually, Uh, that's a really sour subject because my grandfather

1395
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 2: was dying and I was out in the field training

1396
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 2: and my family, my mom called the unit to give

1397
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 2: them a Red Cross message to let him know that

1398
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 2: my grandfather was dying, and a flight from Korea to

1399
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 2: Vietnam is really short and it's very expensive, and it

1400
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 2: was I could have literally gone just like that on

1401
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:39,480
Speaker 2: a whim, and they never notified me. So my grandfather

1402
01:15:39,560 --> 01:15:42,800
Speaker 2: passed away, I was within like a really short hop

1403
01:15:42,840 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 2: of getting there to be by his bedside, and they

1404
01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 2: never told me.

1405
01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: So.

1406
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 2: Yes, I could have gone to the Vietnam to answer

1407
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:51,160
Speaker 2: your question, but that happened while I was over there

1408
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:51,759
Speaker 2: in Korea.

1409
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then and your family would not have been

1410
01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 1: pissed about it.

1411
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 2: Now Yeah, Now, my family pretty much has allowed me

1412
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:01,840
Speaker 2: to make my own life choices and do whatever I want.

1413
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,720
Speaker 2: Is just live with the repercussions of my choices, and

1414
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,240
Speaker 2: that's how they pretty much have treated I mean, yeah,

1415
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:10,040
Speaker 2: there was always those pressures doing well and whatnot. But

1416
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, all my parents wanted

1417
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:12,280
Speaker 2: to be.

1418
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:16,639
Speaker 1: Was just happy. Yeah. So you spent time in when

1419
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:20,160
Speaker 1: you spent time in Iraq, Afghanistan, these are long stints

1420
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 1: of time or short in and outs, or.

1421
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:24,760
Speaker 2: They were all VERI the longest I was there for

1422
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:29,880
Speaker 2: was fifteen months straight. Yeah, fifteen months straight. And then

1423
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 2: the shortest I was gone for was six months, and

1424
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 2: then you had nine, twelve, fourteen's all mixed in there

1425
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,120
Speaker 2: and you were there, and what role combat operations for

1426
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:40,839
Speaker 2: the most part.

1427
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, as an officer, as a non commissioned officer.

1428
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:47,120
Speaker 2: As a non commissioned officer, okay, because by the time

1429
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:50,599
Speaker 2: I went on my first deployment with my second duty

1430
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:53,599
Speaker 2: assignment there, which was Hawaii, I was already a sergeant

1431
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:57,639
Speaker 2: and five then. So that's the difference with the military

1432
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:00,519
Speaker 2: versus the civilian side. You could be like a twenty

1433
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:03,400
Speaker 2: year old you wreck a sergeant or a corporal, and

1434
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:05,280
Speaker 2: you're alread gonna have three to four people that you

1435
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:09,840
Speaker 2: control their lives. And then with how many people usually

1436
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:11,720
Speaker 2: as a fire team leader, you would have three to

1437
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 2: four people that fall underneath you and you're their immediate supervisor.

1438
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 2: And eventually when you make squad leader. In a typical

1439
01:17:18,280 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 2: infantry unit, you have anywhere from nine to eleven if

1440
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:23,040
Speaker 2: it depends on whether it's you know, with the light

1441
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:26,639
Speaker 2: infantry or a striker infantry. And then as a platuoncer

1442
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:29,400
Speaker 2: once you get up, which is generally about twelve to

1443
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 2: fourteen years in then you have thirty six to forty four.

1444
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:35,639
Speaker 2: And then as an infantry company first arm you would

1445
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 2: have anywhere from one hundred and thirty six to over

1446
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 2: two hundred and then that was my role for the

1447
01:17:40,200 --> 01:17:43,639
Speaker 2: last five years was as a first art And you're

1448
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 2: retiring now next year.

1449
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,600
Speaker 1: Yep. Twenty years, twenty two years, twenty two years.

1450
01:17:49,320 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 2: Army has changed quite a bit. There's a lot of

1451
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:54,439
Speaker 2: things that I absolutely love and I wasn't looking back

1452
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 2: on it. I wouldn't change anything I had done. But

1453
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 2: at the same time, the way it's right now with

1454
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:05,320
Speaker 2: me coming up through basically the entire duration of my

1455
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:09,320
Speaker 2: time in through all these wars and conflict and having

1456
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:12,719
Speaker 2: certain expectations of how people should be and how soldiers

1457
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 2: should be has changed quite a bit. Now that we're

1458
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:18,559
Speaker 2: considered like a peace time military, got it, And that's

1459
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 2: not what I signed up for. And now that I've

1460
01:18:20,600 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 2: I've done my time, it's time for me to move on.

1461
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 1: You just don't mean you don't want to, you don't

1462
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 1: feel the need to be there during peace time.

1463
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:32,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, the drive isn't the same anymore, along with you know,

1464
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 2: other factors like my body is starting to give out.

1465
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 2: And I've always been one of those that you can't

1466
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 2: tell people to do something you can't do it themselves,

1467
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 2: You do it yourself, got it? And I'm now at

1468
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:45,679
Speaker 2: the point where I cannot be as physically fit as

1469
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 2: I used to be, where I always pride myself that

1470
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:51,240
Speaker 2: my fitness was higher than most I got it. Can

1471
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:53,080
Speaker 2: run out with the best of them, with the seventeen

1472
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:54,960
Speaker 2: eighteen year olds, and can't really do that anymore with

1473
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:56,840
Speaker 2: like basically all the injuries that I've had.

1474
01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 1: So when you talk about surgeries you had, you had,

1475
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 1: you had injuries within the military, yeah, I got you,

1476
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:03,960
Speaker 1: I got you.

1477
01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:08,200
Speaker 2: And then within them from doing certain things, and then

1478
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 2: also just the wear and tear where we would do

1479
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:14,560
Speaker 2: certain things as an infantryman where you have to be

1480
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:17,639
Speaker 2: able to carry a thirty five pound ruck a pack

1481
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 2: on your back along with your weapon, your prograss I

1482
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 2: mean all in all, you end up carrying probably close

1483
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:23,880
Speaker 2: to sixty five pounds wor a gear and you have

1484
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:26,719
Speaker 2: to do that foot march twelve miles and under three hours,

1485
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:28,680
Speaker 2: which you either can walk really fast or you have

1486
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 2: to jog some of it short legs like me. I

1487
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 2: had to run a lot of it because there's no

1488
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:34,680
Speaker 2: way in how I maintain a fifteen minute pace with

1489
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 2: all that gear on with my short legs, So I

1490
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 2: had to jog and run, and you would do that

1491
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 2: every year along with all the other conditioning foot marches

1492
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:44,559
Speaker 2: where it might be six miles, might be nine miles.

1493
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:46,439
Speaker 2: And then when you go to the field, we do

1494
01:19:46,479 --> 01:19:49,320
Speaker 2: all these different infantry battle drills for training aspects of it.

1495
01:19:49,439 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 2: Some of them are like, for example, move into contact

1496
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:55,160
Speaker 2: or move into daylight. Moving daylight is exactly what it

1497
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 2: sounds like. You start off walking at night and you

1498
01:19:57,560 --> 01:20:01,080
Speaker 2: keep walking until daylight on. If you don't find the enemy,

1499
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:03,559
Speaker 2: then you basically you halt. Or if you do move

1500
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 2: into contact, you keep walking until you find the damn

1501
01:20:05,439 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 2: enemy and then you take the fight to them, or

1502
01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:09,479
Speaker 2: you're doing a reconnaissance. I mean, there's a whole lot

1503
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:11,920
Speaker 2: of different aspects of it. And then there's no such

1504
01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 2: thing as we can't walk there because of the terrain.

1505
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:18,160
Speaker 2: You may do like in Korea that would really test you,

1506
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:20,839
Speaker 2: that will break your freaking body because of the elevation

1507
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,120
Speaker 2: and then the mountains that you're walking up and down.

1508
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:25,280
Speaker 2: So you find all the different drawls, the different cuts,

1509
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 2: and you make your path and you would sometimes walk

1510
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:34,400
Speaker 2: fourteen eighteen thirty hours. We had one combat operation after

1511
01:20:34,439 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 2: we had a soldier killed that we were hunting for

1512
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 2: specific people where it was a ninety six hour operation.

1513
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:43,639
Speaker 2: We we're up four days straight, and fatigue and everything

1514
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 2: starts kicking in. And that's where the fitness has to

1515
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 2: come in. Because if you're not fit, you're tired, you're

1516
01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 2: gonna fall asleep, and somebody's gonna die. So those are

1517
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 2: the things that start stressing your body and really start

1518
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 2: stressing your brain. You know, one incident like or a

1519
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:00,960
Speaker 2: one event like that is it's not so bad, but

1520
01:21:01,040 --> 01:21:04,840
Speaker 2: you multiply that over the course of numerous combat deployments,

1521
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 2: twenty plus years of service, and it has its toll.

1522
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 1: When after Afghanistan had gone for twenty years and people

1523
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:17,280
Speaker 1: started to draw parallels between Afghanistan and Vietnam, and then

1524
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 1: we pull out of Afghanistan in a way that seemed

1525
01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:28,320
Speaker 1: reminiscent at a minimum, right of our withdrawal from Vietnam.

1526
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:32,639
Speaker 1: What'd that look like after having spent time there? What

1527
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:33,880
Speaker 1: was that like? Emotionally for you?

1528
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:39,240
Speaker 2: It was it was disheartening. And I'm gonna leave it

1529
01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:41,599
Speaker 2: at that because I'm still an active duty remember, oh,

1530
01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 2: and I might actually say something.

1531
01:21:42,960 --> 01:21:43,880
Speaker 1: I might We'll talk to you.

1532
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 2: We'll talk to you in a year Yeah, talk to

1533
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 2: you in a year and I'll tell you very passionate

1534
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 2: feelings about that. But it was very disheartening. Yeah, because

1535
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:53,960
Speaker 2: there were there were there were good men and women

1536
01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:56,639
Speaker 2: that that lost their lives on how it was handled.

1537
01:21:56,840 --> 01:22:03,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got it. Still not time flies start.

1538
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 2: Time flies in the seven years ago is when I started. Okay,

1539
01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 2: so what happened seven years ago? So I was getting

1540
01:22:09,320 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 2: ready to leave Hawaii. I was still recovering from some

1541
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:16,200
Speaker 2: of the injuries that I was getting medical help for,

1542
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:19,120
Speaker 2: and at that point right there, I was really not

1543
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 2: doing platoon sergean't work anymore where. I was just getting

1544
01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:26,719
Speaker 2: ready to PCs permanent, change the station and leave Hawaii.

1545
01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:30,639
Speaker 2: Packed up all the stuff, they shipped it off. We're

1546
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 2: living out of the hotel room until our flight. So

1547
01:22:33,320 --> 01:22:35,640
Speaker 2: I had a couple of weeks left and I was

1548
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:36,400
Speaker 2: hitting the drink.

1549
01:22:36,240 --> 01:22:37,519
Speaker 1: Pretty hard in Hawaii.

1550
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:40,400
Speaker 2: In Hawaii because the one thing I don't want to

1551
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:41,720
Speaker 2: get too far ahead of myself. But one of the

1552
01:22:41,800 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 2: things that like with non commissioned officer or leaders in

1553
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:46,640
Speaker 2: general in the military is when you have soldiers that

1554
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:49,320
Speaker 2: you're responsible for, you will put it on a facade

1555
01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:51,840
Speaker 2: in order to present that appearance to those soldiers. So

1556
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 2: you put it on up a wall, and you always

1557
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 2: have to show because they're gonna mimic everything you do.

1558
01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:58,800
Speaker 2: So even if I wanted to be or pissed as

1559
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:00,800
Speaker 2: drunk every day, I really could. And because I had

1560
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 2: soldiers that were responsible for But the minute that you

1561
01:23:04,360 --> 01:23:07,800
Speaker 2: take those leaders and you have them no longer in

1562
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:11,400
Speaker 2: charge of anything, then that wall comes crumbling down real fast.

1563
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 2: And that was happening to me, where all the things

1564
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:17,600
Speaker 2: I kept bottle up inside for years and years. You know,

1565
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:21,759
Speaker 2: soldiers that were lost over in combat, people that I knew,

1566
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 2: that were very close to and no longer around, injuries

1567
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:28,040
Speaker 2: that I felt, and then just a shearer amount of

1568
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:30,680
Speaker 2: horror that you see over the Middle East, where you

1569
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:34,160
Speaker 2: know they'll strap like one of the soldiers that we

1570
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:38,120
Speaker 2: had passed away died from a suicide vest and it

1571
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:42,400
Speaker 2: was like basically a little many metal, late handicapped child

1572
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:45,840
Speaker 2: girl that they strapped the vest to. So so you

1573
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:48,200
Speaker 2: walk in there, you know, selling cigarettes and whatnot to

1574
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 2: all the soldiers to get accustomed to see and seeing

1575
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:54,320
Speaker 2: these local national kids, and they strapped the vester and

1576
01:23:54,320 --> 01:23:58,719
Speaker 2: they blew her up. Soldiers wearing what he mic rounds

1577
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:02,479
Speaker 2: on his vest because he was grenaeddeerse rounds exploded and

1578
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:05,360
Speaker 2: basically just tore his inside out. So those are the

1579
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 2: things that you'll deal with that you basically just have

1580
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 2: to pack away. There's some people that can't, and then

1581
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:13,840
Speaker 2: they're the ones that will have like those mental breakdowns.

1582
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:18,400
Speaker 2: And though uh they are the vocal about PTSD et cetera,

1583
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:21,639
Speaker 2: et cetera. Well, I couldn't have that luxury because I had,

1584
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 2: you know, I had soldiers that I was responsible for.

1585
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 2: I at thirty six other men that if I broke down,

1586
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:31,439
Speaker 2: then what were they gonna do? So I bottle a

1587
01:24:31,479 --> 01:24:34,400
Speaker 2: lot of that crap up. So the minute that I

1588
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,120
Speaker 2: no longer was in charge of anything, I had all

1589
01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:38,000
Speaker 2: this free time in my hands. As I was getting

1590
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:40,400
Speaker 2: ready to leave Hawaii, you know, I was drinking pretty

1591
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:43,280
Speaker 2: heavily try to drown out some of that shit. And

1592
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:46,920
Speaker 2: uh though, the time where I first started getting into

1593
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:49,800
Speaker 2: the fly fishing aspect of it, I was at a

1594
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:53,599
Speaker 2: bar and there was an old guy that kept on

1595
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:54,920
Speaker 2: trying to talk to me, and I was kind of

1596
01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:57,600
Speaker 2: like brushing them off, and then he brought up the

1597
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 2: subject of fishing. So keep in mind. I absolutely loved

1598
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:03,800
Speaker 2: fishing as a kid, but I didn't really dangle in

1599
01:25:03,800 --> 01:25:05,400
Speaker 2: it at all because I was so busy with the

1600
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,639
Speaker 2: military for so long that it kind of like took

1601
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:11,879
Speaker 2: a back seat to everything I was doing in the military.

1602
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:14,519
Speaker 2: But that sparked, you know, my interest right away. It

1603
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 2: was brought back, you know, some of those fun memories.

1604
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:18,280
Speaker 2: And that's how he got me to open up. And

1605
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:21,439
Speaker 2: he took me out to Conniehiwaba and I don't even

1606
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:24,519
Speaker 2: know what sized fly rod or whatnot. It was just

1607
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:26,519
Speaker 2: some huge rod and showing me how to do some

1608
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:30,800
Speaker 2: basic casts and Uh handed me this who was this

1609
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:34,840
Speaker 2: guy was Korean War vet? Yeah, it was just another vet.

1610
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:39,240
Speaker 2: Uh caught my first fish and it was the most

1611
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:41,360
Speaker 2: exhilarating feeling. It was totally different than anything I had

1612
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:45,599
Speaker 2: caught I had done with conventional gear because that rod

1613
01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 2: was so long and you feel like every headshake, every movement,

1614
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 2: the runs and whole nine yards. I had no idea

1615
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:54,200
Speaker 2: that it was the trophy sized bonefish as my first

1616
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:54,920
Speaker 2: fish that I caught it.

1617
01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 1: In Hawaii, Hawaii. It was huge bonefish, man bonefish.

1618
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 2: That was my first fish on a fly rod. To me,

1619
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 2: it was just a.

1620
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:03,679
Speaker 1: Fish, but you caught it on a flat in Hawaii.

1621
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:09,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, huh. And so unfortunately, soon after that we we

1622
01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:14,439
Speaker 2: left Hawaii and moved to my next assignment and again

1623
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 2: got all caught up in uh in the military, and

1624
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:23,520
Speaker 2: didn't fly fish again for for almost like six seven months.

1625
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:26,559
Speaker 2: And but were you like not at all?

1626
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:27,760
Speaker 5: You weren't thinking about fish?

1627
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,320
Speaker 2: No. You know how my mindset is when I get

1628
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:34,040
Speaker 2: a focus on a very on specific task, I get

1629
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 2: like obsessed with making sure it gets done right. And

1630
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:38,840
Speaker 2: the task that I had on hand was that we

1631
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:44,160
Speaker 2: were certifying National Guard guardsmen before they deployed overseas, and

1632
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:45,680
Speaker 2: we wanted to make sure that they knew what the

1633
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:49,880
Speaker 2: hell they were doing, otherwise, you know, they could suffer casualties.

1634
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:51,920
Speaker 2: So that was my main focus. I was traveling to

1635
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:55,720
Speaker 2: places like Graling, Michigan, to Drumming, New York, all over

1636
01:26:55,760 --> 01:26:58,439
Speaker 2: the place, and we would get these battalions, brigades of

1637
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 2: National guardsmen and then we ran them through the gauntlet.

1638
01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:03,960
Speaker 2: And so that's what I was doing for a long time.

1639
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 2: And then the time that I got re rekindled with

1640
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:13,160
Speaker 2: the fishing aspect of it was I was actually driving home.

1641
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:18,000
Speaker 2: I lived about sixty eight miles or so from work

1642
01:27:18,720 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 2: one way, because a big part of my life is

1643
01:27:22,200 --> 01:27:24,840
Speaker 2: my kids, and I wanted to find the best schools

1644
01:27:24,840 --> 01:27:27,320
Speaker 2: I could put them in. So the area around post

1645
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:31,320
Speaker 2: generally most military posts, not exactly the great is where

1646
01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:33,920
Speaker 2: you got a lot of strip bars, pawn shoves, and

1647
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:37,599
Speaker 2: oh yeah, so it was the best schools was up

1648
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:40,800
Speaker 2: about sixteen miles away in northeast Indianapolis, in the town

1649
01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:44,840
Speaker 2: called Fishers. And I made that commute every day, so

1650
01:27:45,400 --> 01:27:47,600
Speaker 2: long drive home, listen to a lot of radio, a

1651
01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:50,519
Speaker 2: lot of audible whatnot. And this one time I had

1652
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 2: the radio on and there was a commercial for the

1653
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:57,880
Speaker 2: Indianapolis Sports and Outdoor Show and I was like, WHOA,

1654
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 2: maybe I'll check this out. It's only fifteen minute diversion

1655
01:28:02,360 --> 01:28:05,840
Speaker 2: from getting home. So I was stealing uniform, drove there

1656
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:06,639
Speaker 2: and went started.

1657
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:08,639
Speaker 1: I just went there right then, just went there right then.

1658
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 2: And it's walking around checking out all the boats and

1659
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:13,800
Speaker 2: the hunting lodges, and I.

1660
01:28:13,720 --> 01:28:15,360
Speaker 1: Mean the radio ads work man.

1661
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:20,520
Speaker 2: And so when I got over to the Fishing.

1662
01:28:20,240 --> 01:28:23,000
Speaker 1: Air and visited the guy that did the ad by,

1663
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:26,000
Speaker 1: I want you to know I literally came here because

1664
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:26,759
Speaker 1: of that radio.

1665
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:30,719
Speaker 3: Ad when you said the exit now, yeah, yeah.

1666
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 2: It was very similar to the guy that does those

1667
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 2: four wheeling ads where they you know, they're yelling and screaming,

1668
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 2: come check this.

1669
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:40,479
Speaker 1: Out right now, you know, I will, damn damn it,

1670
01:28:40,520 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 1: I will.

1671
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:44,960
Speaker 2: And so I went and then when I made it

1672
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:47,240
Speaker 2: over to the fishing area, they had a very little

1673
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:49,240
Speaker 2: small corner there just for the fly fishing. I was

1674
01:28:49,320 --> 01:28:51,559
Speaker 2: checking out the no show and eventually I made over

1675
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:53,720
Speaker 2: to the fly fishing area and then I got I

1676
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:56,600
Speaker 2: was I was hearing, hey, soldier, come here. Who the

1677
01:28:56,640 --> 01:29:00,919
Speaker 2: hell's calling me? I realized I was still in uniform.

1678
01:29:01,120 --> 01:29:05,519
Speaker 2: So there's a organization called Project Healing Waters fly Fishing

1679
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:08,600
Speaker 2: and they had a chapter there out of an Indianapolis,

1680
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:10,960
Speaker 2: and they had a little booth there. They're trying to.

1681
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:12,760
Speaker 1: You shit me because you had your uniform on.

1682
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:15,040
Speaker 2: That's how I had a big target on my Bag's like, yeah,

1683
01:29:15,080 --> 01:29:18,160
Speaker 2: there's a soldier. So went over there and they start

1684
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 2: telling them about themselves and what they do and now

1685
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:24,839
Speaker 2: they help veterans overcome disabilities, whether it's mental or physical.

1686
01:29:25,160 --> 01:29:27,680
Speaker 2: You're like, I having to know a guy and how

1687
01:29:27,720 --> 01:29:31,439
Speaker 2: they healed through fly fishing and whatnot. And I was like, oh,

1688
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:34,120
Speaker 2: flyfishing is pretty cool. I did that once. They're like,

1689
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:36,240
Speaker 2: we'll show you how everything else you need to know,

1690
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,280
Speaker 2: so sign up with their email list and next thing

1691
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:41,280
Speaker 2: you know, I got this notification.

1692
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:44,479
Speaker 1: Intervention dude, and it's like God was like talking to

1693
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:45,840
Speaker 1: you through your car radio.

1694
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:50,880
Speaker 2: And I am was left though on my first outing

1695
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:57,120
Speaker 2: that they had So being being a soldier, you kind

1696
01:29:57,160 --> 01:30:00,920
Speaker 2: of feel like you're almost an outsider to civilians at times. Uh.

1697
01:30:01,439 --> 01:30:03,240
Speaker 2: You change over the years, and one of the things

1698
01:30:03,240 --> 01:30:05,919
Speaker 2: that changed about me was I didn't like being around strangers.

1699
01:30:05,960 --> 01:30:07,720
Speaker 2: I didn't like being around crowds. I didn't like it

1700
01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:10,920
Speaker 2: being around in an environment I couldn't control. So it's

1701
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:13,519
Speaker 2: that fight or flight mentality, and I was getting that

1702
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:15,880
Speaker 2: like that first day I was at that outing. Even

1703
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:17,360
Speaker 2: though there were other vets there, I didn't know who

1704
01:30:17,439 --> 01:30:18,760
Speaker 2: was a VET, who was a volunteer, who was what.

1705
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:22,080
Speaker 2: It was just completely I'm the only one there that

1706
01:30:22,120 --> 01:30:22,959
Speaker 2: didn't know anybody.

1707
01:30:23,479 --> 01:30:25,680
Speaker 1: You know, man, I don't know if that's particular to that,

1708
01:30:25,760 --> 01:30:28,599
Speaker 1: because that might be your age shining through too, because

1709
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:31,799
Speaker 1: I got that problem bad. Even ship.

1710
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:35,880
Speaker 2: Could be that too, and you come found them with

1711
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:37,920
Speaker 2: the military, and then you exceptlified it even more.

1712
01:30:38,320 --> 01:30:38,439
Speaker 8: So.

1713
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:40,240
Speaker 2: I was actually getting ready to leave and I was

1714
01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:42,120
Speaker 2: walking back to my car and I was about to

1715
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:45,000
Speaker 2: drive off, and this older gentleman my name, Oh, I'm sorry,

1716
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:47,759
Speaker 2: you're getting ready to leave that first fishing outing.

1717
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:50,519
Speaker 1: So they host you on a fishing outing. Then you

1718
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:51,920
Speaker 1: get there and it was too much.

1719
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:53,720
Speaker 2: There was too much going on, and.

1720
01:30:53,800 --> 01:30:55,760
Speaker 1: So you're almost say, never mind, this isn't for me.

1721
01:30:56,040 --> 01:30:58,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I literally walked to my car, was hopping in

1722
01:30:58,439 --> 01:30:58,800
Speaker 2: and then.

1723
01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:00,559
Speaker 1: This this unannounced you're just leaving.

1724
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 2: I was just leaving.

1725
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:01,599
Speaker 1: I was just.

1726
01:31:03,200 --> 01:31:06,000
Speaker 2: And uh, this gentleman like in a way that was weird. No,

1727
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:07,599
Speaker 2: to me, it was normal, was like but I mean

1728
01:31:07,680 --> 01:31:08,840
Speaker 2: like in a way they would be like, wow, that

1729
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:12,320
Speaker 2: guy just left. Yeah, I'm sure they they deal with

1730
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:14,240
Speaker 2: that quite a bit because they deal with a lot

1731
01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:16,800
Speaker 2: of soldiers that and veterans that are going through quite

1732
01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:20,519
Speaker 2: a bit. But this guy named Joe Smith, he's uh

1733
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:24,080
Speaker 2: find out you know, he's the program coordinator there. He's like, hey,

1734
01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:26,320
Speaker 2: what's where are you going? And then he kind of

1735
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:28,400
Speaker 2: like talked me out of it, and uh partnered me

1736
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:31,519
Speaker 2: up with somebody because I didn't realize that once you

1737
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:34,000
Speaker 2: go there and then you sign up, and then they

1738
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:36,639
Speaker 2: put a volunteer with you to be like your buddy

1739
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:38,160
Speaker 2: for the day type of.

1740
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,120
Speaker 1: Deal, and another veteran.

1741
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:42,600
Speaker 2: Uh sometimes sometimes just a civilian that just wants to

1742
01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:42,960
Speaker 2: help out.

1743
01:31:43,240 --> 01:31:45,720
Speaker 4: I used to do that, and I was I just

1744
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:49,320
Speaker 4: teach people how to cast and take him out on

1745
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:51,000
Speaker 4: the river and the drift boat and stuff.

1746
01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:54,240
Speaker 2: And I had no idea where organization, no warriors and

1747
01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:58,040
Speaker 2: quiet water. And so they partnered me up with somebody

1748
01:31:58,080 --> 01:32:00,559
Speaker 2: and then took me out to the area where there

1749
01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:03,519
Speaker 2: was a bunch of crappies and with a fly rod,

1750
01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:06,040
Speaker 2: and they're showing me some basic gas and whatnot, start

1751
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 2: catching some fish and then kind of like slowly forgot

1752
01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:11,559
Speaker 2: about everything else, all the anxiety that I was dealing with,

1753
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:15,760
Speaker 2: and all that melted away again. And when they you

1754
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:18,160
Speaker 2: hear that cliche quite a bit, where you know, healing

1755
01:32:18,160 --> 01:32:22,639
Speaker 2: through fishing, healing on the water, It's very true because

1756
01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:26,080
Speaker 2: the reason why fly fishing works so well compared to

1757
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 2: conventional fishing or archery versus conventional honting is the amount

1758
01:32:32,479 --> 01:32:35,439
Speaker 2: of concentration attention to details that's required in order to

1759
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:38,400
Speaker 2: achieve your end state If you don't pay attention to

1760
01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:40,080
Speaker 2: what you're doing, you're gonna hung up with the fly rod.

1761
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:41,960
Speaker 2: You don't pay attention with what you're doing with the bow,

1762
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:43,439
Speaker 2: you're not can hit your target.

1763
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:45,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so an if you got a if you

1764
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 1: got a soccer ride out with a bell on the end,

1765
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 1: you can still be pounding some drinks and thinking about

1766
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:52,799
Speaker 1: the war.

1767
01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:54,240
Speaker 3: Let, the circle, the job.

1768
01:32:54,560 --> 01:32:57,600
Speaker 2: But you're constantly so busy with a fly rod that

1769
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:01,000
Speaker 2: you kind of like start tuning everything else out. And

1770
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:03,880
Speaker 2: that's why that it really helps with with the mental

1771
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 2: healing aspect of it, because you tune out all that noise.

1772
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:10,520
Speaker 2: And uh, that's what tying is. Was Also, so.

1773
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:14,120
Speaker 1: When you were when you guys are fishing crappies, what

1774
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:15,759
Speaker 1: were you do you remember what you were throwing?

1775
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:18,640
Speaker 2: I think it was a little pheasant tail o. It

1776
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:19,800
Speaker 2: was whatever he tied on then.

1777
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:22,160
Speaker 1: But did you take any particular interest in it at

1778
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:23,720
Speaker 1: that time? The fly?

1779
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:24,960
Speaker 8: Uh?

1780
01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:28,200
Speaker 2: Sort of because of the engineering background, I was more

1781
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:32,280
Speaker 2: intrigued on the howism to everything, So I uh, even

1782
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:34,080
Speaker 2: to this day, like the first time I looked at

1783
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:35,880
Speaker 2: the fly I was deconstructed on my brain, like how

1784
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:37,160
Speaker 2: is this thing put together.

1785
01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:38,759
Speaker 1: Got it. I mean you just looked at the world

1786
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:39,120
Speaker 1: that way.

1787
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:40,759
Speaker 2: I look at the world, look at a camera system,

1788
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,599
Speaker 2: and I think it's the same way, Like how how's

1789
01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:45,280
Speaker 2: this lens put together, how's the glass, how's the magnification,

1790
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:47,720
Speaker 2: et cetera. Everything I look at I deconstruct.

1791
01:33:47,840 --> 01:33:50,040
Speaker 1: You've been eyeball and that old Triumph trap right there.

1792
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:52,760
Speaker 2: I mean, if you think about it, it's probably why

1793
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:55,679
Speaker 2: the Japanese and the Chinese are so far advancing technology

1794
01:33:55,680 --> 01:33:59,960
Speaker 2: because they steal all American ideas deconstruct everything to their engineer.

1795
01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:03,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, so I look at stuff and I started deconstructing.

1796
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:05,600
Speaker 2: It was the same way with flies. It was the

1797
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 2: same way with the cast. It was the same way

1798
01:34:07,040 --> 01:34:09,320
Speaker 2: with how the fly rods built the physics behind it.

1799
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:12,960
Speaker 2: So coming from the engineering background, I looked at it

1800
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:15,679
Speaker 2: a little bit differently, where I like in the casting

1801
01:34:16,240 --> 01:34:20,280
Speaker 2: and using the lion the rod on basically catching that

1802
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:25,200
Speaker 2: fish versus the the real is like the engineering behind

1803
01:34:25,240 --> 01:34:29,719
Speaker 2: it on applied pressure and whatnot, and using basically motion

1804
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:31,880
Speaker 2: order the cast. And I mean, at the end of

1805
01:34:31,880 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 2: the day, some of the best casters in the world

1806
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 2: with the flywre can cast further than anybody with a

1807
01:34:35,439 --> 01:34:37,400
Speaker 2: bake cast or a spinning rod, because they know what

1808
01:34:37,439 --> 01:34:40,120
Speaker 2: they understand physics. So when I was looking at those flies,

1809
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:42,639
Speaker 2: I was already starting to think that now I really

1810
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:45,040
Speaker 2: didn't know exactly, you know, how you would do it.

1811
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:47,680
Speaker 2: All I knew was the type of materials, but I

1812
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:50,519
Speaker 2: didn't know all of the materials, And so that even

1813
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:54,479
Speaker 2: piqued my interest more because then on another trip home,

1814
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:57,639
Speaker 2: I was like, I was like, you know those flies.

1815
01:34:57,680 --> 01:34:59,600
Speaker 2: I kept on thinking about it. It was stuck in

1816
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:01,439
Speaker 2: my brain, and I googled the.

1817
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:03,639
Speaker 1: Fly as a thing. Yeah, and I.

1818
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 2: Googled fly shops in Indiana, and then there was this

1819
01:35:07,040 --> 01:35:09,240
Speaker 2: shop there called fly Masters of Indianapolis, and it was

1820
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:12,000
Speaker 2: literally the exit that I take home. I passed by

1821
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:14,519
Speaker 2: it almost every day and had never paid attention to it,

1822
01:35:15,040 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 2: small little corner shop that you just you wouldn't, dude.

1823
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:20,560
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's like it's like a screenplay.

1824
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:23,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like this entire screenplay was going through.

1825
01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:26,280
Speaker 2: But it was like there, right there, that exit. And

1826
01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:28,599
Speaker 2: then I pulled that that parking lot and came in

1827
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:33,519
Speaker 2: and uh, super friendly guys in there. Derek, he's the

1828
01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:35,920
Speaker 2: store manager there still works this day.

1829
01:35:37,120 --> 01:35:38,160
Speaker 1: Big shout out Derek.

1830
01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:40,360
Speaker 2: Big shout out to Derek. He's a great guy.

1831
01:35:40,479 --> 01:35:42,559
Speaker 1: He was the name of the shop again, fly.

1832
01:35:42,479 --> 01:35:46,439
Speaker 2: Masters of Indianapolis. So I went in there. Uh Now,

1833
01:35:46,640 --> 01:35:49,479
Speaker 2: the stigma behind Mo's fly shops is like, if you

1834
01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:51,559
Speaker 2: don't look like you're you can spend money, they kind

1835
01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:53,040
Speaker 2: of like ignore you because the stuff in a fly

1836
01:35:53,080 --> 01:35:55,439
Speaker 2: shop is expensive as heck, there's no going around there.

1837
01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:58,439
Speaker 1: You think that's true. It is not the not the price,

1838
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:01,200
Speaker 1: but you think that that you think that, you know

1839
01:36:01,400 --> 01:36:03,280
Speaker 1: it is too like the one time of year I

1840
01:36:03,360 --> 01:36:05,680
Speaker 1: going to buy a few leaders and stuff. You know,

1841
01:36:05,760 --> 01:36:06,280
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1842
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:09,960
Speaker 5: As someone who managed the fly shop for a few years,

1843
01:36:11,080 --> 01:36:13,519
Speaker 5: you know, you know who's coming in to buy a

1844
01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:16,200
Speaker 5: spool of tippet, and who's coming in to buy a rod?

1845
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:16,680
Speaker 1: Got it?

1846
01:36:18,080 --> 01:36:20,639
Speaker 5: And you're gonna spend more time on the guys buinder.

1847
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:22,559
Speaker 4: It depends on where you're at too.

1848
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I mean you've got locals that are coming

1849
01:36:25,720 --> 01:36:27,519
Speaker 5: in that you're seeing every couple of days and they

1850
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:28,360
Speaker 5: become your buddies.

1851
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:31,160
Speaker 2: Sure you can also go to remember the last majority

1852
01:36:31,160 --> 01:36:33,960
Speaker 2: of the fly shop owners are still the old school,

1853
01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:38,559
Speaker 2: older guy mentality. Where it was like a a a

1854
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:42,760
Speaker 2: gentleman's type sport. And there's a big difference in nine

1855
01:36:42,840 --> 01:36:45,360
Speaker 2: hundred one thousand dollars rod versus somebody that's gonna go

1856
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:47,439
Speaker 2: to Walmart and buy, you know, a fifty dollars kid

1857
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:50,519
Speaker 2: and the ones that looked like they would shop at Walmart.

1858
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:52,600
Speaker 2: A lot of those guys kind of like tend to

1859
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:54,479
Speaker 2: ignore quite a because the don't think they're gonna spend

1860
01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:54,760
Speaker 2: the money.

1861
01:36:54,800 --> 01:36:55,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1862
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:58,400
Speaker 2: Unfortunately that that's the case with some fly shops, not all.

1863
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:01,960
Speaker 2: And unfortunately for me, that wasn't the case with fly Masters.

1864
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:03,920
Speaker 2: When I went in there, they they were cool. They

1865
01:37:03,920 --> 01:37:05,679
Speaker 2: were really cool and answer a lot of questions.

1866
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:09,240
Speaker 1: Okay, so if you're a dirt bag in Indianapolis and

1867
01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:11,120
Speaker 1: you want to be treated with respect at your local

1868
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:12,000
Speaker 1: fly shop.

1869
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:15,679
Speaker 5: Well, not all fly shops sell tying stuff either, Yeah,

1870
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:20,200
Speaker 5: because it's a million different skews that cost three dollars.

1871
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:25,200
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. Change. I can't pinpoint the time,

1872
01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:27,800
Speaker 3: but it used to be like every fly shop, in

1873
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:31,120
Speaker 3: order to be a fly shop, had materials and then

1874
01:37:31,120 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 3: all of a sudden.

1875
01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:35,080
Speaker 2: Like wall in my mind's eye, right, yeah, it's actually

1876
01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:37,840
Speaker 2: a dying art over in the East Coast, if you

1877
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:40,679
Speaker 2: go to any of these fly fishing clubs, the average

1878
01:37:40,680 --> 01:37:43,519
Speaker 2: agent there is probably closer to sixty five seventy. Now,

1879
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:45,400
Speaker 2: it's different out here in the West because it's still

1880
01:37:45,439 --> 01:37:49,200
Speaker 2: popular with the young folks, because it's it's activities. At

1881
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:52,160
Speaker 2: most of the colleges you go to Colorado, it's it's

1882
01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:53,920
Speaker 2: the vast majority you'll see on the people in the

1883
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:57,320
Speaker 2: river are you know, nineteen to thirty year olds. You

1884
01:37:57,360 --> 01:37:59,360
Speaker 2: go out east, most people you see on the water

1885
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:03,320
Speaker 2: with a fly rod or late fifties seventies. Huge disparity

1886
01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:04,599
Speaker 2: between the East Coast and the West Coast.

1887
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:08,000
Speaker 4: Whence it comes down, it's trent. It's trendy here. Yeah,

1888
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:08,639
Speaker 4: it's like.

1889
01:38:08,600 --> 01:38:12,680
Speaker 1: A well, it's been that way for decades. It's not

1890
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:13,880
Speaker 1: even it's not even trendy.

1891
01:38:13,880 --> 01:38:15,439
Speaker 4: Since the time I moved out here.

1892
01:38:15,680 --> 01:38:17,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I would even say it's like, at a point,

1893
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:20,800
Speaker 1: it's just the reality. But it's not even trendy. It's

1894
01:38:20,880 --> 01:38:24,519
Speaker 1: just like it's it's a it's a discipline or a

1895
01:38:24,560 --> 01:38:27,640
Speaker 1: pursuit that remains alive and well in a part of

1896
01:38:27,640 --> 01:38:28,000
Speaker 1: the world.

1897
01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:30,719
Speaker 2: Yes, but unfortunately a lot of those older customer bays

1898
01:38:30,880 --> 01:38:35,000
Speaker 2: are starting to pass away, and then along with them

1899
01:38:34,400 --> 01:38:39,040
Speaker 2: the drive to tie flies, and there aren't enough replacements

1900
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:42,320
Speaker 2: coming in to basically take up the helm of all

1901
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:44,840
Speaker 2: these guys. There's more guys that tie flies and fly

1902
01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:46,400
Speaker 2: fars that are passing away than are guys that are

1903
01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:48,200
Speaker 2: taking up the sport parts of the US.

1904
01:38:48,280 --> 01:38:49,920
Speaker 1: I want to just pause for one mix. I want

1905
01:38:49,960 --> 01:38:53,439
Speaker 1: to make sure I'm clear on something. Going into a

1906
01:38:53,439 --> 01:38:55,640
Speaker 1: fly shop and having the big wall of all the

1907
01:38:55,680 --> 01:39:01,280
Speaker 1: hackles and you know, dubbing, that's becoming not a thing.

1908
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:02,360
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't know this.

1909
01:39:02,640 --> 01:39:05,800
Speaker 3: A lot of Yeah, lots of shops have gotten rid

1910
01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:09,040
Speaker 3: of that because, like what Brody said is it takes

1911
01:39:09,120 --> 01:39:14,280
Speaker 3: up a lot of retail space and your return on

1912
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:19,280
Speaker 3: that retail space is way lower than like your soft

1913
01:39:19,320 --> 01:39:21,839
Speaker 3: goods or your hard goods, and so like your clothing,

1914
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:24,920
Speaker 3: your waiters, stuff like that, you have better margins as

1915
01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 3: a retailer.

1916
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:28,000
Speaker 5: On Yeah, you get someone like Sun coming in messing

1917
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,160
Speaker 5: up all the materials and then you spend an hour

1918
01:39:30,280 --> 01:39:32,599
Speaker 5: putting everything.

1919
01:39:32,920 --> 01:39:34,960
Speaker 1: They ring it all up. He's got like thirteen bucks

1920
01:39:34,960 --> 01:39:35,519
Speaker 1: for stuff.

1921
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:38,439
Speaker 3: Brody's got to get the ladder out getting up there.

1922
01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:42,040
Speaker 2: But there's a big However, that because depending on the

1923
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:45,559
Speaker 2: market in the region of the US, some shops will

1924
01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:50,120
Speaker 2: survive solely on tying materials because the return on the

1925
01:39:50,160 --> 01:39:53,799
Speaker 2: tying materials is actually far superior than it is on hardware.

1926
01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:57,160
Speaker 2: Because you can go on there with five hundred dollars

1927
01:39:57,200 --> 01:39:59,320
Speaker 2: and you might walk out with a small little brown

1928
01:39:59,400 --> 01:40:02,960
Speaker 2: back with him cials. It adds up, yeah, five dollars,

1929
01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:03,599
Speaker 2: seven dollars.

1930
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:06,599
Speaker 4: You know, you think about that that hackle that whites

1931
01:40:07,120 --> 01:40:11,000
Speaker 4: whiting hackle, like that stuff is not cheap.

1932
01:40:11,240 --> 01:40:14,400
Speaker 2: No, Like, just to buy a basic entry gate grade

1933
01:40:14,479 --> 01:40:17,280
Speaker 2: cape is forty five bucks just for one color of

1934
01:40:17,280 --> 01:40:20,559
Speaker 2: a specific ackle. And that's where a lot of people,

1935
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:23,760
Speaker 2: when they jump into that rabbit hole is. They look

1936
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:25,559
Speaker 2: at books, they'll see all the materials, and they think

1937
01:40:25,560 --> 01:40:29,479
Speaker 2: they have to follow exactly that material list. And those

1938
01:40:29,479 --> 01:40:31,760
Speaker 2: guys there will run into every fly shop and they

1939
01:40:32,280 --> 01:40:34,320
Speaker 2: want to tie this fly or that fly, and they

1940
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:37,000
Speaker 2: will have a list and they'll buy this hackle because

1941
01:40:37,040 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 2: this one fly calls for it. They'll buy this, and

1942
01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:42,280
Speaker 2: next thing you know, you have boxes of shit that

1943
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:45,880
Speaker 2: you will only have used once ever for one particular pattern.

1944
01:40:46,439 --> 01:40:48,720
Speaker 2: And then after you get into it for a couple

1945
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,320
Speaker 2: of years you realize you get substitute a lot of

1946
01:40:51,320 --> 01:40:53,200
Speaker 2: stuff that you don't have. But a lot of beginner

1947
01:40:53,240 --> 01:40:56,720
Speaker 2: tires don't know that. And those guys there will will

1948
01:40:56,800 --> 01:40:59,240
Speaker 2: keep a fly shop in business because they will spend

1949
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:03,439
Speaker 2: thousands of dollars just buying materials for stuff that they

1950
01:41:03,520 --> 01:41:04,960
Speaker 2: might not even ever catch a fish.

1951
01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:07,360
Speaker 1: It's very addictive. Do you know the editor and fly

1952
01:41:07,560 --> 01:41:11,080
Speaker 1: tire uh and writer Jay Nichols? You know him at all?

1953
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:12,960
Speaker 2: I know the name. I've never met him though.

1954
01:41:12,920 --> 01:41:16,000
Speaker 1: We lived together, Okay, Yeah, and I remember going out

1955
01:41:16,040 --> 01:41:21,000
Speaker 1: and U shooting pine squirrels and their tails are awesome. Yeah,

1956
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:23,360
Speaker 1: him taking that hair and putting in his coffee grinder,

1957
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:28,200
Speaker 1: you know, bacon make it like because he used to

1958
01:41:28,240 --> 01:41:29,240
Speaker 1: tie for the shops.

1959
01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, right here, this is the claws on this crayfish

1960
01:41:32,439 --> 01:41:33,000
Speaker 2: or pine squirrel.

1961
01:41:33,080 --> 01:41:35,439
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, he used to have like he just sit

1962
01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:38,960
Speaker 1: there just like I guess what you're calling guide flies. Yeah,

1963
01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:40,479
Speaker 1: you know, not all the time, but he had a

1964
01:41:40,520 --> 01:41:43,840
Speaker 1: lot of times would spend time just tying and tying

1965
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:45,800
Speaker 1: and tying and tying to go sell him at you know,

1966
01:41:45,920 --> 01:41:47,680
Speaker 1: Grizzly Hackle or whatever the hell it was.

1967
01:41:48,080 --> 01:41:50,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like fly shops are awesome, and for anybody

1968
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:53,719
Speaker 2: that that hasn't gotten into fly fish and that's looking

1969
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:56,000
Speaker 2: into it, develop a relationship with your local fla shop

1970
01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:59,640
Speaker 2: because they're the ones that if you if you don't one,

1971
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:01,920
Speaker 2: they're probably going to go out business because all the

1972
01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:05,400
Speaker 2: big box store competitors is going to price them out.

1973
01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:07,640
Speaker 2: But if you go in there you develop that relationship,

1974
01:42:07,640 --> 01:42:10,400
Speaker 2: You're going to learn where to fish, where, what's biting,

1975
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 2: you know what type of flies are actually working, the

1976
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:14,920
Speaker 2: time of year. You're gonna learn all these things and

1977
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:16,840
Speaker 2: you never find out in a book because it's a

1978
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:18,840
Speaker 2: local expert that's helping them out. And at the same time,

1979
01:42:18,840 --> 01:42:22,080
Speaker 2: you're also supporting your local economy and that will help

1980
01:42:22,120 --> 01:42:25,720
Speaker 2: you throughout the entire journey, whether it's time flies or

1981
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:28,920
Speaker 2: picking the right gear, going to the right places to fish.

1982
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:31,000
Speaker 2: It's spent certain times a year. There are just certain

1983
01:42:31,040 --> 01:42:35,160
Speaker 2: things that local guides know, local fly shops know that

1984
01:42:35,400 --> 01:42:37,639
Speaker 2: you can't ever find from Google or from.

1985
01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:38,000
Speaker 3: A lot of them.

1986
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:41,160
Speaker 5: Do like tying seminars and classes and stuff. Did you

1987
01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:43,479
Speaker 5: did you do any of that at at that shop?

1988
01:42:43,520 --> 01:42:47,839
Speaker 2: And Indianapolis I did it with healing waters and eventually

1989
01:42:47,960 --> 01:42:50,080
Speaker 2: going full circle. I came back to fly Mass and

1990
01:42:50,080 --> 01:42:51,879
Speaker 2: I did some demos for them for customers.

1991
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so how do you become once you got into it?

1992
01:42:56,920 --> 01:42:58,600
Speaker 2: Uh?

1993
01:42:59,160 --> 01:43:02,240
Speaker 1: I guess ninety whatever, I don't know. Ninety nine percent

1994
01:43:02,280 --> 01:43:06,120
Speaker 1: of the people that start tying flies sit down and

1995
01:43:06,160 --> 01:43:10,559
Speaker 1: tie what they use, Okay, and they're just it's just functional, right,

1996
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:12,720
Speaker 1: You're just tying them because you want to tie the

1997
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:16,400
Speaker 1: flies that use Uh, how did it? What is the

1998
01:43:16,560 --> 01:43:20,840
Speaker 1: jump where it becomes artistry? Well, I would because you're

1999
01:43:21,080 --> 01:43:23,519
Speaker 1: you're not known now as just a dude that can

2000
01:43:23,560 --> 01:43:25,720
Speaker 1: whip out a shipload of pheasant tails before he goes

2001
01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:26,240
Speaker 1: out fishing.

2002
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:29,240
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say ninety nine percent. I would probably say

2003
01:43:29,720 --> 01:43:33,040
Speaker 2: close to the fifty percent. Nowadays, with the influx of

2004
01:43:33,080 --> 01:43:36,400
Speaker 2: the younger generation getting into tying.

2005
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:38,519
Speaker 1: I mean that people are into the artistry. Yeah. So

2006
01:43:38,680 --> 01:43:42,479
Speaker 1: more like your bread and butter fishermen are buying flies. Yes,

2007
01:43:42,520 --> 01:43:45,759
Speaker 1: and tying has become like like is it is tying

2008
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:47,040
Speaker 1: retro now?

2009
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:51,040
Speaker 2: Tying Uh? For many, like especially with guides, is a

2010
01:43:51,080 --> 01:43:53,560
Speaker 2: means to an end where they're supplying their own flyboxes

2011
01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:54,640
Speaker 2: versus having the buy.

2012
01:43:54,400 --> 01:43:57,400
Speaker 1: Out of financial considerations and so that's still a.

2013
01:43:57,439 --> 01:44:00,840
Speaker 2: Thing that's still think for others it's they the flies

2014
01:44:00,840 --> 01:44:03,080
Speaker 2: that they tie with their patterns. They know it's going

2015
01:44:03,160 --> 01:44:04,960
Speaker 2: to work better than anything they can buy, got it.

2016
01:44:05,080 --> 01:44:07,120
Speaker 2: So again it's still a means to an end, nop.

2017
01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:10,240
Speaker 2: And then for that other fifty percent, it's either for

2018
01:44:10,360 --> 01:44:13,280
Speaker 2: the mental health or just for the artistry. Just I mean,

2019
01:44:13,400 --> 01:44:14,680
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, if you look at it,

2020
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:16,639
Speaker 2: it's adult arts and crafts. That's all.

2021
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:17,639
Speaker 3: It is, arts and crafts.

2022
01:44:18,160 --> 01:44:18,320
Speaker 8: Sir.

2023
01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:21,960
Speaker 1: What was the first fly you tied that had some

2024
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:24,960
Speaker 1: sort of merit beyond just being a thing that someone

2025
01:44:24,960 --> 01:44:28,640
Speaker 1: would go and snag in the bush behind them and

2026
01:44:29,080 --> 01:44:32,160
Speaker 1: write it off. That's another loss fly right.

2027
01:44:33,920 --> 01:44:38,320
Speaker 2: Probably Again, this here will be the obsessive compulsor nature

2028
01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:41,719
Speaker 2: of me. When I started learning, it was through books.

2029
01:44:42,479 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 2: Healing waters helped refine all that, but I was I

2030
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:49,479
Speaker 2: had some books I was looking through there fly Masters

2031
01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:53,599
Speaker 2: of Indianapolis again, they gave me my first fice had

2032
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:56,600
Speaker 2: no costs because they have, like I was telling you,

2033
01:44:57,280 --> 01:44:59,559
Speaker 2: on the East coast there and even the Midwest, you

2034
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:01,839
Speaker 2: have a lot of people dying off. So these widows

2035
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:05,160
Speaker 2: don't know what to do with their husbands. Or their grandparents' stuff,

2036
01:45:05,280 --> 01:45:07,519
Speaker 2: so they end up just giving it to charities or

2037
01:45:07,560 --> 01:45:11,519
Speaker 2: fly shops or whatever. And the fly shop there runs

2038
01:45:11,560 --> 01:45:13,960
Speaker 2: a lot of classes and whatnot on Saturday, so they

2039
01:45:13,960 --> 01:45:17,000
Speaker 2: had widows up bringing stuff all the time. So they

2040
01:45:17,040 --> 01:45:19,639
Speaker 2: had advice that they gave me along with the tools,

2041
01:45:19,640 --> 01:45:22,160
Speaker 2: some materials and whatnot. And you know, as I'm paging

2042
01:45:22,200 --> 01:45:22,479
Speaker 2: through this.

2043
01:45:22,520 --> 01:45:26,880
Speaker 1: Book, they gave it to you. That's bad business. Bad business.

2044
01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:30,080
Speaker 3: Hits free good?

2045
01:45:30,600 --> 01:45:30,960
Speaker 2: Is that right?

2046
01:45:31,439 --> 01:45:34,000
Speaker 1: What they had to repeat customer. And so.

2047
01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:38,800
Speaker 2: I was reading this book and reading about the history

2048
01:45:38,840 --> 01:45:41,000
Speaker 2: about the flies and how we got to start over

2049
01:45:41,080 --> 01:45:44,879
Speaker 2: there in the UK, and then how the early pioneers

2050
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:47,880
Speaker 2: through to Gordon in the early nineteen hundreds took some

2051
01:45:47,920 --> 01:45:50,720
Speaker 2: of those British patterns and fashioned them to flies that

2052
01:45:50,760 --> 01:45:53,160
Speaker 2: would work in the fast moving waters up there in

2053
01:45:53,200 --> 01:45:55,400
Speaker 2: the Cassicall Mountain up in New York and turn them

2054
01:45:55,400 --> 01:45:58,720
Speaker 2: into you know, our modern drive flies today. So that

2055
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:01,479
Speaker 2: really perked my interest because I'm such a history nerd

2056
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:04,519
Speaker 2: that all I wanted to know the why isn't everything?

2057
01:46:05,200 --> 01:46:07,040
Speaker 2: And I read about it and then I looked at

2058
01:46:07,080 --> 01:46:08,599
Speaker 2: this one fly and I was like, man, this fly

2059
01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:11,559
Speaker 2: is just gorgeous. It's a pattern called the ginger quill

2060
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:13,080
Speaker 2: developed in the early nineteen unders.

2061
01:46:13,160 --> 01:46:13,880
Speaker 1: The ginger quill.

2062
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:17,680
Speaker 2: Ginger quill made out with mallard flank wings and uh

2063
01:46:17,880 --> 01:46:21,920
Speaker 2: strip peacock quill body hackle hold on yards. So I'm

2064
01:46:21,920 --> 01:46:23,599
Speaker 2: looking at this flies like I got to tie this thing.

2065
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:26,240
Speaker 2: So look through the materials, didn't have it, went back

2066
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:28,920
Speaker 2: to fly masters. But when I needed came back home

2067
01:46:29,000 --> 01:46:30,880
Speaker 2: start tying this fly. It looked like something that fell

2068
01:46:30,880 --> 01:46:31,760
Speaker 2: out of a bull's nose.

2069
01:46:33,360 --> 01:46:34,559
Speaker 1: But with the.

2070
01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:40,400
Speaker 2: Military background and the engineering background is like fur feathers

2071
01:46:40,560 --> 01:46:42,920
Speaker 2: threat ache at the best meat. I'm going to tie

2072
01:46:42,920 --> 01:46:45,800
Speaker 2: this damn fly. When it was all said, I tied

2073
01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:47,439
Speaker 2: about one hundred and twenty of these flies until I

2074
01:46:47,439 --> 01:46:50,920
Speaker 2: got it looked like wow, until it looked like that

2075
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:53,120
Speaker 2: fly in the book, having no idea. That's not how

2076
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:56,360
Speaker 2: you should start tying flies, because there's very simple patterns.

2077
01:46:56,400 --> 01:46:58,240
Speaker 2: You start off with the wooly buggers and all this

2078
01:46:58,600 --> 01:47:00,760
Speaker 2: I'm tying one of the most difficult lies there because

2079
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:03,840
Speaker 2: in order to get those mallard flank feathers to sit right,

2080
01:47:04,439 --> 01:47:07,320
Speaker 2: they split real easily, and if you don't put the

2081
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:10,360
Speaker 2: right amount of threat pressure on there, the feather. The

2082
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:13,599
Speaker 2: strands between each of those feathers will just start frank.

2083
01:47:14,320 --> 01:47:17,080
Speaker 2: So it took over one hundred of these flies and

2084
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:19,880
Speaker 2: a lot of so good, a lot of trips to

2085
01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:22,559
Speaker 2: fly masters. I literally bought them out of mautter of

2086
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:25,360
Speaker 2: flank feathers until I got the fly look right.

2087
01:47:25,439 --> 01:47:27,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you just started with a San Juan worm,

2088
01:47:27,520 --> 01:47:28,439
Speaker 5: things could have gone.

2089
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:33,040
Speaker 2: The funny part though, I was so proud of myself.

2090
01:47:33,080 --> 01:47:37,600
Speaker 2: I like, I tied this this ginger quilt, ginger quilt,

2091
01:47:38,439 --> 01:47:40,960
Speaker 2: just like the one in the book. And then I

2092
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:45,040
Speaker 2: discovered Google and I typed ginger quill and the modern

2093
01:47:45,120 --> 01:47:48,760
Speaker 2: version look nothing like the ones that are in the book.

2094
01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:53,320
Speaker 2: Over time, it looks so much furtier the modern verses

2095
01:47:53,360 --> 01:47:55,480
Speaker 2: because we have better materials nowaday.

2096
01:47:55,479 --> 01:47:57,280
Speaker 1: And the modern version looked better.

2097
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:00,320
Speaker 2: Because of the better quality hackle. When the materials there's

2098
01:48:00,360 --> 01:48:01,680
Speaker 2: you get genetic hackles where they.

2099
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:03,800
Speaker 1: And you're you're working off some old ass book from

2100
01:48:03,800 --> 01:48:04,840
Speaker 1: the seventies or something.

2101
01:48:05,360 --> 01:48:07,559
Speaker 2: I'm taking working off a picture that was taking probably

2102
01:48:07,560 --> 01:48:10,360
Speaker 2: like nineteen oh five. Got it and my fly looked

2103
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:12,599
Speaker 2: nothing like the modern versions. So I started all over again,

2104
01:48:12,840 --> 01:48:14,240
Speaker 2: and so I got it looking like the ones that

2105
01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:16,720
Speaker 2: I would solong on uh on Google.

2106
01:48:16,320 --> 01:48:18,479
Speaker 1: And meanwhile, are you at least fishing this thing too?

2107
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:22,920
Speaker 3: No, I was gonna say, what what else did Google

2108
01:48:22,960 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 3: tell you about that fly?

2109
01:48:24,040 --> 01:48:26,240
Speaker 1: Dude? If you just saved those hundred and we could

2110
01:48:26,280 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 1: make a big display case the progression top to bottom,

2111
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:31,840
Speaker 1: the one hundred flies lined out, it would be a

2112
01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:33,759
Speaker 1: nice little thing for the auction House of Oddities.

2113
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:36,559
Speaker 2: So that fly right there was was the first. It

2114
01:48:36,600 --> 01:48:38,880
Speaker 2: was a fly that really right there.

2115
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:42,920
Speaker 1: Oh, let me see this fly was, huh, the.

2116
01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:44,760
Speaker 2: One that really got me going down the rabbit hole.

2117
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,840
Speaker 1: I was picturing when you when Chester just showed me

2118
01:48:47,880 --> 01:48:49,680
Speaker 1: the picture I was pictured something look like those old

2119
01:48:49,720 --> 01:48:55,479
Speaker 1: crazy Scottish like Atlantic salmon flies, right yeah, like like

2120
01:48:55,479 --> 01:48:58,439
Speaker 1: like Chester's crazy, not crazy, Chester's tattooed is uh.

2121
01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:03,080
Speaker 2: So when it got to me, I was tying for

2122
01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:05,519
Speaker 2: about eleven months now at that point, and a lot

2123
01:49:05,560 --> 01:49:07,439
Speaker 2: of it was just meet dabbling, figuring things out on

2124
01:49:07,439 --> 01:49:10,120
Speaker 2: my own and having no idea whether I was doing

2125
01:49:10,160 --> 01:49:10,640
Speaker 2: anything right.

2126
01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:13,200
Speaker 5: But no tying those flies on under the end of

2127
01:49:14,040 --> 01:49:15,599
Speaker 5: the lead where you were.

2128
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:17,920
Speaker 2: I was fishing a lot of midges, pheasant tails, hair zier.

2129
01:49:18,280 --> 01:49:19,840
Speaker 1: So you're fishing meanwhile.

2130
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I literally tied every fly that was in that book,

2131
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:25,040
Speaker 2: The Founding Flies, written by this gentleman my name, by

2132
01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:26,640
Speaker 2: the name of Mike Valaf from New York, so he's

2133
01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:28,120
Speaker 2: still around. Actually met him.

2134
01:49:28,360 --> 01:49:30,320
Speaker 1: Years later at he tried every fly in his book.

2135
01:49:30,320 --> 01:49:32,320
Speaker 2: I tied every fly in his book, and that included

2136
01:49:32,320 --> 01:49:36,080
Speaker 2: deer hair patterns, the streamers. These were all it's called

2137
01:49:36,080 --> 01:49:39,120
Speaker 2: like basically forty three masters guys from the nineteen hundred

2138
01:49:39,120 --> 01:49:43,240
Speaker 2: to the sixties that were showing their famous patterns there.

2139
01:49:43,520 --> 01:49:45,720
Speaker 2: And I tied like each of the ones that I

2140
01:49:45,720 --> 01:49:48,000
Speaker 2: saw in there. So I was figuring out how to

2141
01:49:48,040 --> 01:49:50,600
Speaker 2: do stuff. I was probably doing it very wrong, but

2142
01:49:51,240 --> 01:49:53,200
Speaker 2: I was spinning deer hair at that point because I

2143
01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:56,800
Speaker 2: wanted to mimic these irresistible atoms and whatnot. And it

2144
01:49:56,840 --> 01:50:00,400
Speaker 2: was through a lot of trial and air uh daky

2145
01:50:00,479 --> 01:50:04,080
Speaker 2: deer hair wrapping hackle. A lot of it was self taught,

2146
01:50:04,160 --> 01:50:07,120
Speaker 2: a lot of it was asking questions over at the

2147
01:50:07,160 --> 01:50:10,800
Speaker 2: local fly shops and uh, some of the guys over

2148
01:50:11,400 --> 01:50:13,640
Speaker 2: Project heilling Waters knew some of the answers, some did,

2149
01:50:14,479 --> 01:50:18,160
Speaker 2: and then so at eleven months they they Project Heiling

2150
01:50:18,200 --> 01:50:20,720
Speaker 2: Waters told me there's a national fly Time competition that

2151
01:50:21,040 --> 01:50:24,559
Speaker 2: they wanted me to enter, and I was like, what

2152
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:26,599
Speaker 2: the heck, what is it. They're like, well, just a bit,

2153
01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:28,519
Speaker 2: you know, five of the same patterns, and if you

2154
01:50:28,520 --> 01:50:31,599
Speaker 2: you win in it, you know it's good for the program,

2155
01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:33,960
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. And I'm like, all right, sure,

2156
01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:37,759
Speaker 2: so I I tied five fans.

2157
01:50:37,760 --> 01:50:41,360
Speaker 3: We're not aware that these competitions exist at this point.

2158
01:50:41,920 --> 01:50:44,800
Speaker 2: I had no idea how big this was because to me,

2159
01:50:44,920 --> 01:50:47,080
Speaker 2: I thought it was just like like a local chapter.

2160
01:50:47,320 --> 01:50:49,320
Speaker 1: This is so much like a movie. This is like

2161
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:51,400
Speaker 1: the part and Karate Kid when he finds out about

2162
01:50:51,400 --> 01:50:52,400
Speaker 1: the karate contest.

2163
01:50:53,200 --> 01:50:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I tied five of these fan wing fan

2164
01:50:57,160 --> 01:51:03,400
Speaker 2: wing quote Gordon's and five of the stimulators, which is

2165
01:51:03,479 --> 01:51:05,360
Speaker 2: very popular was created out of here out west.

2166
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:07,920
Speaker 1: And were you? You weren't You didn't happen to be

2167
01:51:08,040 --> 01:51:11,480
Speaker 1: like in a romantic rivalry with another.

2168
01:51:11,280 --> 01:51:13,479
Speaker 2: Tire where nobody even knew who I was.

2169
01:51:13,920 --> 01:51:15,559
Speaker 1: He was not like, you're not trying to win a

2170
01:51:15,560 --> 01:51:18,320
Speaker 1: woman's favorite. I'm just thinking about the movie here. You're

2171
01:51:18,360 --> 01:51:21,200
Speaker 1: not trying to win a woman's favorite through fly Time. Well,

2172
01:51:21,320 --> 01:51:23,679
Speaker 1: you gets like a real asshole who's good at times.

2173
01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:26,000
Speaker 3: Well, there's somebody at the fly shop and you guys

2174
01:51:26,080 --> 01:51:28,320
Speaker 3: reached for the same hackle at the same time, and

2175
01:51:28,360 --> 01:51:33,840
Speaker 3: he may have said something discriminatory and then you reunite

2176
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:36,520
Speaker 3: the competition.

2177
01:51:40,840 --> 01:51:44,679
Speaker 2: So my buddy, his name is Joe Jackson. He's from Indiana. Also,

2178
01:51:44,720 --> 01:51:48,480
Speaker 2: he was also that that got out from from disabilities.

2179
01:51:48,520 --> 01:51:55,960
Speaker 3: There's another Joe Jackson from Indiana, the Jackson the family.

2180
01:51:57,800 --> 01:52:02,160
Speaker 2: Oh, never minding the competition too.

2181
01:52:02,360 --> 01:52:04,719
Speaker 1: At one time, Phil says something I had no idea

2182
01:52:04,720 --> 01:52:06,400
Speaker 1: that he totally derails the conversation.

2183
01:52:06,920 --> 01:52:10,240
Speaker 2: Nobody gets it, continued, He submitted flies also, and I

2184
01:52:10,240 --> 01:52:12,599
Speaker 2: didn't I didn't know that he had submitted flies if

2185
01:52:12,800 --> 01:52:16,639
Speaker 2: several people from that same program, and so they invited

2186
01:52:16,640 --> 01:52:18,280
Speaker 2: all the files. I was notified. You know, I was

2187
01:52:18,280 --> 01:52:20,880
Speaker 2: one of the top five finalists for this competition. And

2188
01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:25,160
Speaker 2: then there was this International fly Time Supposium in Lancaster, Pennsylvania,

2189
01:52:25,400 --> 01:52:26,960
Speaker 2: and they paid my way to get out there, put

2190
01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:28,800
Speaker 2: me up in the hotel, and then come check out

2191
01:52:28,800 --> 01:52:30,640
Speaker 2: the show. Who was tied at the boots so you

2192
01:52:30,760 --> 01:52:33,519
Speaker 2: have to tie him there? No, you submitted them. And

2193
01:52:33,560 --> 01:52:35,559
Speaker 2: then there was a panel of all these like renowned

2194
01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:39,760
Speaker 2: expert tires from across the US that analyzed the work,

2195
01:52:39,800 --> 01:52:42,759
Speaker 2: that analyzed the work, So it seems ripe for fraud

2196
01:52:43,479 --> 01:52:43,920
Speaker 2: could be.

2197
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:46,519
Speaker 5: When they do when they do analyze them, are they

2198
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:48,800
Speaker 5: deconstructing them? Are they just looking at.

2199
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:50,880
Speaker 2: They're looking at them. They see if they all look

2200
01:52:50,960 --> 01:52:52,880
Speaker 2: the same, the proportions are correct.

2201
01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:54,800
Speaker 1: I'm surprised you don't need to tie it in front

2202
01:52:54,800 --> 01:52:55,120
Speaker 1: of them.

2203
01:52:55,520 --> 01:52:57,800
Speaker 2: Well, you eventually do that if you. I mean, they

2204
01:52:57,840 --> 01:53:00,479
Speaker 2: have a like a little boot there where you get

2205
01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:02,240
Speaker 2: an hour block and you said, had.

2206
01:53:02,080 --> 01:53:04,599
Speaker 5: You worked your way up to like a real nice

2207
01:53:04,640 --> 01:53:08,200
Speaker 5: souped up rotary ronsetti vice yet or you're just working

2208
01:53:08,240 --> 01:53:09,720
Speaker 5: on that same one that they gave to you.

2209
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:12,960
Speaker 2: That was advice they gave me was ritt yea, they

2210
01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:13,240
Speaker 2: gave you.

2211
01:53:13,280 --> 01:53:16,080
Speaker 1: A good one. Tell me this vice again, I never

2212
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:16,280
Speaker 1: heard of.

2213
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:18,920
Speaker 3: I gave you.

2214
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:24,560
Speaker 1: My daughter's is a rinsettie, the old one. Hey tell you.

2215
01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:26,080
Speaker 1: The only thing we tie on her his lead ahead.

2216
01:53:26,280 --> 01:53:29,360
Speaker 5: Well, either way, that's like that.

2217
01:53:30,200 --> 01:53:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some other good companies that make them. Thank you.

2218
01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:35,360
Speaker 1: What's it all the rubber bands and whatnot on there?

2219
01:53:35,400 --> 01:53:37,559
Speaker 5: Well, because there's a little piece on there that keeps

2220
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:42,720
Speaker 5: keeps the flex on the jaws and that rubber, you

2221
01:53:42,760 --> 01:53:45,599
Speaker 5: know what I'm talking about, goes around the jaws that broke.

2222
01:53:45,680 --> 01:53:47,280
Speaker 2: So I just put a rubber.

2223
01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:48,479
Speaker 1: It's a round zetti.

2224
01:53:49,240 --> 01:53:50,320
Speaker 2: It's a rubber zetti.

2225
01:53:50,439 --> 01:53:50,880
Speaker 1: I don't know.

2226
01:53:53,560 --> 01:53:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're based out of Florida.

2227
01:53:55,760 --> 01:53:59,519
Speaker 1: And that's the cats asked for. Cast me out for vices.

2228
01:54:00,360 --> 01:54:03,519
Speaker 2: No, I have, I think only eleven vices at home.

2229
01:54:03,640 --> 01:54:04,400
Speaker 1: What's your favorite?

2230
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:07,599
Speaker 2: I really don't have one particular one. I use them

2231
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:09,960
Speaker 2: all because they all serve a different purpose. There's a

2232
01:54:09,960 --> 01:54:12,519
Speaker 2: couple that I bought them because they're they were cool

2233
01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:15,400
Speaker 2: to look at, but functionally wise, they weren't as good

2234
01:54:15,400 --> 01:54:17,080
Speaker 2: as some of the other ones. But like Norvice is

2235
01:54:17,080 --> 01:54:19,320
Speaker 2: one of the ones I used quite a bit. Rensetti

2236
01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:22,479
Speaker 2: Regal was another good one. There's a lot of different companies.

2237
01:54:22,600 --> 01:54:24,760
Speaker 1: It makes the most kick ass pair of little scissors.

2238
01:54:25,320 --> 01:54:29,080
Speaker 2: UH company would call it the renowned because they're they're

2239
01:54:29,120 --> 01:54:33,040
Speaker 2: based off of German scissors. Yeah, and they're sharpes scissors

2240
01:54:33,040 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 2: by far. I mean, the engineering behind them is phenomenal.

2241
01:54:36,040 --> 01:54:37,960
Speaker 1: Now, what could have what could have fell a uh

2242
01:54:38,360 --> 01:54:41,920
Speaker 1: put into a pair of scissors? Good pair of scissors.

2243
01:54:43,360 --> 01:54:44,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're.

2244
01:54:44,240 --> 01:54:47,280
Speaker 2: Gonna say something crazy no, you can put more money

2245
01:54:47,280 --> 01:54:47,800
Speaker 2: into advice.

2246
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:50,880
Speaker 1: I'm a scissors like a scissors enthusiast. Yeah, you want to.

2247
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:54,400
Speaker 2: Get a pair of really good scissors. And so, uh,

2248
01:54:54,600 --> 01:54:57,400
Speaker 2: going back onto that time competition when I was there,

2249
01:54:57,440 --> 01:55:00,560
Speaker 2: they started announcing all these winners off, fifth place, fourth place,

2250
01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:02,600
Speaker 2: et cetera. And then finally it was me and Joe

2251
01:55:02,680 --> 01:55:05,200
Speaker 2: left and then they announced Joe. I was just, you know,

2252
01:55:05,240 --> 01:55:07,520
Speaker 2: the first runner up. I'm like sitting there like this.

2253
01:55:07,600 --> 01:55:09,440
Speaker 2: They really even down on me. I was like everybody

2254
01:55:09,440 --> 01:55:11,520
Speaker 2: else is gone and I'm still sitting there at the table.

2255
01:55:12,480 --> 01:55:15,880
Speaker 2: You yeah, that's one of like the guys around me.

2256
01:55:15,920 --> 01:55:18,680
Speaker 2: They're like congratulations sign and I'm like, oh ship, I

2257
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:23,320
Speaker 2: want So they called off my name and then gave me.

2258
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:26,000
Speaker 2: They gave me the Regal Advice as one of the prize,

2259
01:55:26,000 --> 01:55:27,920
Speaker 2: along with certificates and all this stuff like.

2260
01:55:28,240 --> 01:55:32,280
Speaker 1: First yeah, first runner up is confusing. I remember entering

2261
01:55:32,320 --> 01:55:34,520
Speaker 1: an essay contest and getting the letter when I was

2262
01:55:34,520 --> 01:55:36,520
Speaker 1: in high school, getting the letter that I was first

2263
01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:39,920
Speaker 1: runner up. I thought it meant at one, and then

2264
01:55:39,920 --> 01:55:41,240
Speaker 1: someone had to be like, no, that's not what that means.

2265
01:55:41,280 --> 01:55:44,680
Speaker 1: You're like despike the word first. It's like your second.

2266
01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:47,240
Speaker 5: It's a more flattering way of saying second.

2267
01:55:57,000 --> 01:55:59,560
Speaker 2: So first and second place ended up being two guys

2268
01:55:59,560 --> 01:56:01,320
Speaker 2: from the same program. It was me and Joe, but.

2269
01:56:01,360 --> 01:56:03,000
Speaker 1: Out of people from around the whole country.

2270
01:56:03,080 --> 01:56:05,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it was pretty cool.

2271
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:08,920
Speaker 1: Did you guys have the same mentor Uh?

2272
01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:11,360
Speaker 2: He was there quite a few years longer than I was.

2273
01:56:11,400 --> 01:56:13,360
Speaker 2: I was just I was still relative that they knew there,

2274
01:56:13,760 --> 01:56:17,240
Speaker 2: So I really don't know how he Uh he was taught.

2275
01:56:17,520 --> 01:56:19,200
Speaker 2: I know, he was self taught a lot of stuff.

2276
01:56:19,200 --> 01:56:21,280
Speaker 2: He does a lot of deer hair stuff also, but

2277
01:56:21,360 --> 01:56:23,080
Speaker 2: he was very involved with the program at that point,

2278
01:56:23,080 --> 01:56:24,440
Speaker 2: and I was like the new guy coming in.

2279
01:56:24,840 --> 01:56:26,920
Speaker 1: And so what was the average these guys that are

2280
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:29,360
Speaker 1: tying in this in this competition? Were you guys? Were

2281
01:56:29,360 --> 01:56:30,520
Speaker 1: you guys relatively young?

2282
01:56:31,560 --> 01:56:36,360
Speaker 2: I was always relatively old compared those other to other tires, Yeah,

2283
01:56:36,440 --> 01:56:39,120
Speaker 2: that are in the program. Most of these guys are

2284
01:56:39,160 --> 01:56:42,760
Speaker 2: either veterans that that did you know, three years, got

2285
01:56:42,760 --> 01:56:47,120
Speaker 2: out some disability, or got injured in their seventh year.

2286
01:56:47,280 --> 01:56:50,760
Speaker 2: So you had the vast majority of them are probably

2287
01:56:51,120 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it's gonna vary between programs mid thirties to

2288
01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:56,800
Speaker 2: mid forties, yep.

2289
01:56:57,960 --> 01:57:02,040
Speaker 1: And but I guess that it's great, and that's an

2290
01:57:02,080 --> 01:57:04,760
Speaker 1: interesting thing that I could appreciate that because you stayed

2291
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:06,880
Speaker 1: in for so long. But what I meant was the

2292
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:15,000
Speaker 1: fly tying, the competitive fly tying community in general. Tens old. Yeah, okay, yeah,

2293
01:57:15,040 --> 01:57:17,960
Speaker 1: So I don't know if the eyesight thing eventually bombs

2294
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 1: ye out or.

2295
01:57:18,680 --> 01:57:21,240
Speaker 2: It does, but they make cheaters and everything you can

2296
01:57:21,280 --> 01:57:23,160
Speaker 2: wear for them, Like I have really good eyesight. I

2297
01:57:23,160 --> 01:57:27,400
Speaker 2: mean we see it about twenty fifteen or so, so

2298
01:57:27,680 --> 01:57:30,720
Speaker 2: I have that advantage with my eyesight. But the other

2299
01:57:30,760 --> 01:57:34,200
Speaker 2: part to it was like back then it was one

2300
01:57:34,280 --> 01:57:38,480
Speaker 2: huge competition where first place was against everybody, whether you've

2301
01:57:38,520 --> 01:57:40,200
Speaker 2: been tying for six months or you've been tying for

2302
01:57:40,240 --> 01:57:42,960
Speaker 2: six years, there was no difference. Nowadays they break it

2303
01:57:42,960 --> 01:57:46,640
Speaker 2: down my beginner, intermediate, advance. So it was pretty cool

2304
01:57:47,360 --> 01:57:52,000
Speaker 2: to have basically won that competition, and that opened up

2305
01:57:52,120 --> 01:57:55,720
Speaker 2: the can of worms from there because they started announcing

2306
01:57:56,480 --> 01:58:00,280
Speaker 2: I started my first social media page because I was

2307
01:58:00,320 --> 01:58:03,640
Speaker 2: still using like mass emails to attach pictures of flies

2308
01:58:03,680 --> 01:58:05,200
Speaker 2: that I'll send it on my buddies. It's like, hey,

2309
01:58:05,240 --> 01:58:07,120
Speaker 2: look at this one, Look at this one. They're like, dude,

2310
01:58:07,200 --> 01:58:08,960
Speaker 2: I only just open up a social media account, so

2311
01:58:09,000 --> 01:58:10,520
Speaker 2: everybody just look at it without having to open up

2312
01:58:10,520 --> 01:58:12,400
Speaker 2: emails and whatnot. And that's how I end up starting

2313
01:58:12,960 --> 01:58:15,600
Speaker 2: the insecretive account, was just so that people.

2314
01:58:15,400 --> 01:58:17,360
Speaker 1: Will look at these and what is the Instagram account?

2315
01:58:17,520 --> 01:58:23,160
Speaker 2: It's a Sun Underscore tel and so they they started

2316
01:58:23,160 --> 01:58:25,160
Speaker 2: looking at these flies and next you know, like I

2317
01:58:25,200 --> 01:58:28,240
Speaker 2: get these notifications. So and so is following. You were like,

2318
01:58:28,240 --> 01:58:30,360
Speaker 2: what the hell is this person doing. I didn't know

2319
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:32,920
Speaker 2: what it was. And I started getting these messages and

2320
01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:35,280
Speaker 2: I had no idea what a DM was. And then

2321
01:58:35,320 --> 01:58:38,160
Speaker 2: it was my cousin that told me, hey, somebody just

2322
01:58:38,440 --> 01:58:41,000
Speaker 2: likes what you're posting up on there. And eventually I

2323
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:43,320
Speaker 2: had a question if somebody could ask me like a.

2324
01:58:43,280 --> 01:58:45,160
Speaker 3: Demonstrator, like don't worry, you don't have to go kick

2325
01:58:45,200 --> 01:58:47,640
Speaker 3: their ass, like they just like what you're doing.

2326
01:58:47,720 --> 01:58:49,200
Speaker 2: I thought it was just my friends that were following

2327
01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:51,360
Speaker 2: this account. I realized that strangers that I could just

2328
01:58:51,400 --> 01:58:54,400
Speaker 2: follow your account. So somebody had asked me to post

2329
01:58:54,440 --> 01:58:58,920
Speaker 2: a like detail how I tie in a specific technique.

2330
01:58:58,920 --> 01:59:01,440
Speaker 2: It's like hackle wrap or something like that. So I

2331
01:59:01,440 --> 01:59:03,160
Speaker 2: tried to explain, but it was taking me long, so

2332
01:59:03,200 --> 01:59:05,480
Speaker 2: I just recorded the video and I posted up there

2333
01:59:05,960 --> 01:59:07,440
Speaker 2: and the next you know, like this video I had

2334
01:59:07,440 --> 01:59:10,000
Speaker 2: like over a thousand likes. And I was on social

2335
01:59:10,080 --> 01:59:11,760
Speaker 2: media at that point for like three months or something like,

2336
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:13,400
Speaker 2: and so I was like, wow, a thousand people like this,

2337
01:59:13,960 --> 01:59:16,160
Speaker 2: And so I started posting more of these videos and

2338
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:20,000
Speaker 2: these these flies, and the I guess the algorithm love

2339
01:59:20,040 --> 01:59:22,800
Speaker 2: these little videos or whatever, and the account just like

2340
01:59:22,800 --> 01:59:25,520
Speaker 2: like really blew up. And then it spanned of like

2341
01:59:25,560 --> 01:59:28,280
Speaker 2: a six years that you know, went up to somewhere

2342
01:59:28,280 --> 01:59:30,720
Speaker 2: in eighty thousand some range now. And then in the

2343
01:59:30,720 --> 01:59:32,840
Speaker 2: fly fishing or in the grand scheme thing, it's not

2344
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:35,840
Speaker 2: a whole lot, but for the fly fishing industry itself,

2345
01:59:35,880 --> 01:59:38,160
Speaker 2: it's equivalent probably having like a million followers in like

2346
01:59:38,200 --> 01:59:41,360
Speaker 2: a mass industry because fly fishing is so small and

2347
01:59:41,400 --> 01:59:45,680
Speaker 2: so but this is like the fly tying world tying

2348
01:59:45,680 --> 01:59:49,240
Speaker 2: in fishing because the one difference with my account is

2349
01:59:49,880 --> 01:59:52,360
Speaker 2: I try to mix in the fish that I catch

2350
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:56,160
Speaker 2: along with the flies that I tie, and then it's

2351
01:59:56,200 --> 01:59:59,640
Speaker 2: flies that that are proven patterns that work. It's just

2352
01:59:59,680 --> 02:00:03,800
Speaker 2: I show the techniques. It's basically sixty second video is

2353
02:00:03,800 --> 02:00:05,720
Speaker 2: what they boil down to on how to do the

2354
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:08,360
Speaker 2: major portions of these. I'll speed up the mundane stuff

2355
02:00:08,360 --> 02:00:11,200
Speaker 2: with the raps, and they'll slow it down on the

2356
02:00:11,240 --> 02:00:14,400
Speaker 2: more intricate parts. And then somebody that has a general

2357
02:00:14,440 --> 02:00:17,240
Speaker 2: idea how to tie they could basically capture how to

2358
02:00:17,280 --> 02:00:19,440
Speaker 2: tie this fly in a span of like sixty seconds

2359
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:23,160
Speaker 2: versus having to sit through, you know, fifteen twenty thirty

2360
02:00:23,160 --> 02:00:26,280
Speaker 2: minute YouTube videos on a tutorial. So somebody just wants

2361
02:00:26,680 --> 02:00:29,320
Speaker 2: the basic idea of how to do something, they were

2362
02:00:29,320 --> 02:00:33,160
Speaker 2: looking at these videos, and over the course of that time,

2363
02:00:33,160 --> 02:00:35,560
Speaker 2: I got to meet quite a few cool people in

2364
02:00:35,600 --> 02:00:38,280
Speaker 2: the industry a lot, Like I meant that author, he

2365
02:00:38,360 --> 02:00:40,720
Speaker 2: knew who I was, and it was his book that

2366
02:00:40,760 --> 02:00:41,560
Speaker 2: got right.

2367
02:00:41,600 --> 02:00:42,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh that's cool.

2368
02:00:42,520 --> 02:00:44,520
Speaker 2: Same deal with Like that's a good part of the

2369
02:00:44,520 --> 02:00:52,120
Speaker 2: movie too, right, manufacturers of most of these vices, Like

2370
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:54,760
Speaker 2: when I went to Sims with Warriors and Quiet Waters Foundation,

2371
02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:56,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring them up,

2372
02:00:56,760 --> 02:00:58,320
Speaker 2: And we talked about that a little more a minute.

2373
02:00:58,560 --> 02:01:01,760
Speaker 2: But when I first came here for my first outing

2374
02:01:01,840 --> 02:01:04,560
Speaker 2: with Warriors and Quiet Waters, they took us to the

2375
02:01:04,600 --> 02:01:08,360
Speaker 2: SIMS factory to outfit us with with SIMS gear and

2376
02:01:08,360 --> 02:01:10,520
Speaker 2: along give us you know, fly rods and whatnot taking

2377
02:01:10,520 --> 02:01:12,320
Speaker 2: the vets. At that point, I was already fishing for

2378
02:01:12,320 --> 02:01:13,640
Speaker 2: a little bit, but a lot of vets come here

2379
02:01:13,760 --> 02:01:15,800
Speaker 2: and they ain't never done it before. So when I

2380
02:01:15,840 --> 02:01:17,920
Speaker 2: went there, a lot of the guys that are working

2381
02:01:17,920 --> 02:01:20,160
Speaker 2: as SIMS knew who I was from from the social

2382
02:01:20,200 --> 02:01:23,360
Speaker 2: media aspect there and that was yeah, yeah. So one

2383
02:01:23,400 --> 02:01:25,080
Speaker 2: of the guys, he doesn't work there anymore, his name

2384
02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:27,440
Speaker 2: is Brent, but he came out he was like, man,

2385
02:01:27,560 --> 02:01:29,320
Speaker 2: do you have any flies with you? I was like, yeah,

2386
02:01:29,320 --> 02:01:31,360
Speaker 2: I got my fly box out here in my pack

2387
02:01:31,400 --> 02:01:32,880
Speaker 2: and he said, can I check the my house? And

2388
02:01:32,960 --> 02:01:34,920
Speaker 2: I was like yeah, sure. Brought him in there and

2389
02:01:34,920 --> 02:01:36,480
Speaker 2: he's looking through all these flies like you can have

2390
02:01:36,560 --> 02:01:38,280
Speaker 2: him when he's and he still has them on his

2391
02:01:38,320 --> 02:01:40,560
Speaker 2: man or he lives here in Bozeman, and but he

2392
02:01:40,600 --> 02:01:42,680
Speaker 2: never fished and we kept them. So I didn't realize that,

2393
02:01:42,800 --> 02:01:45,400
Speaker 2: you know, time, flies gonna have that much impact for

2394
02:01:45,440 --> 02:01:47,760
Speaker 2: some people, and there are people that really love the

2395
02:01:47,880 --> 02:01:51,400
Speaker 2: artistry and the uh the work that's behind in concept

2396
02:01:51,400 --> 02:01:53,600
Speaker 2: of fly. The longest time there for me was just

2397
02:01:53,680 --> 02:01:56,200
Speaker 2: basically a way to relax in a way to catch fish.

2398
02:01:56,440 --> 02:01:58,200
Speaker 2: I don't have a single fly, that's fright.

2399
02:01:58,680 --> 02:01:59,000
Speaker 7: Do you.

2400
02:02:00,480 --> 02:02:04,040
Speaker 5: Will you fish with a fly tied by someone else?

2401
02:02:04,160 --> 02:02:05,240
Speaker 1: Or is that no?

2402
02:02:05,480 --> 02:02:07,720
Speaker 2: I have no problems doing that, Okay, I won't fish

2403
02:02:07,800 --> 02:02:11,800
Speaker 2: with flies that are tied overseas and the sweatshops right

2404
02:02:12,080 --> 02:02:13,760
Speaker 2: because they're they're garbage.

2405
02:02:13,840 --> 02:02:15,800
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I didn't know that that was the thing

2406
02:02:15,920 --> 02:02:18,440
Speaker 1: till till a couple of years ago that that had

2407
02:02:18,480 --> 02:02:23,960
Speaker 1: become a that there's a couple of countries that where

2408
02:02:24,000 --> 02:02:26,560
Speaker 1: is it somewhere?

2409
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Kenya. Now there are some companies that are very

2410
02:02:30,920 --> 02:02:33,200
Speaker 2: good and they take very good care of those workers,

2411
02:02:33,200 --> 02:02:33,560
Speaker 2: and some.

2412
02:02:33,560 --> 02:02:38,480
Speaker 4: Are what percentage of flies in these fly shops do

2413
02:02:38,520 --> 02:02:41,640
Speaker 4: you think are tied overseas?

2414
02:02:42,280 --> 02:02:44,600
Speaker 2: Ninety I bet I would say probably close to the

2415
02:02:44,680 --> 02:02:48,240
Speaker 2: ninety five percent, much lower in some of the local

2416
02:02:48,280 --> 02:02:51,520
Speaker 2: shops here, for example, like a huge fly fishing community

2417
02:02:51,520 --> 02:02:54,880
Speaker 2: like Montanam Bozeman. A lot of the fly shops here

2418
02:02:54,960 --> 02:02:58,760
Speaker 2: probably maybe fifty percent, maybe a little bit more. So

2419
02:02:59,120 --> 02:03:02,840
Speaker 2: the really good one will support local tires. And then

2420
02:03:02,880 --> 02:03:04,600
Speaker 2: there are some people that tie commercially and that's all

2421
02:03:04,640 --> 02:03:06,520
Speaker 2: they do, eight hours of a day is just tie

2422
02:03:06,560 --> 02:03:08,960
Speaker 2: flies for shops. I mean, I'd rather stick up food

2423
02:03:09,040 --> 02:03:10,400
Speaker 2: in my eye than do that for eight hours. But

2424
02:03:11,200 --> 02:03:12,959
Speaker 2: there's there's people that do that for a living.

2425
02:03:12,760 --> 02:03:15,280
Speaker 1: And it'll be like a carpal tunnel component to that shattoo.

2426
02:03:15,360 --> 02:03:19,960
Speaker 2: And then just the for me, I would get bored

2427
02:03:20,120 --> 02:03:21,560
Speaker 2: doing the same reea when you get.

2428
02:03:21,480 --> 02:03:25,960
Speaker 5: Into order for yeah, that's when inconyms and you just

2429
02:03:26,000 --> 02:03:26,720
Speaker 5: gotta do the same.

2430
02:03:27,000 --> 02:03:28,440
Speaker 2: A lot of people that ask me the tie flies,

2431
02:03:28,440 --> 02:03:29,880
Speaker 2: how much did I sell them for? And I don't

2432
02:03:29,880 --> 02:03:30,560
Speaker 2: sell flies for.

2433
02:03:30,520 --> 02:03:32,680
Speaker 1: That, So you don't make any jingle off fly time.

2434
02:03:33,600 --> 02:03:36,880
Speaker 2: Uh No, I don't sell anything, make any money off

2435
02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:39,120
Speaker 2: of it. I just do it basically. I enjoy it,

2436
02:03:39,480 --> 02:03:41,280
Speaker 2: you know, So yeah, you don't.

2437
02:03:41,440 --> 02:03:43,600
Speaker 1: You don't make like you don't just sell where I

2438
02:03:43,600 --> 02:03:46,000
Speaker 1: could just buy this. As a person that collective flies.

2439
02:03:45,800 --> 02:03:50,680
Speaker 2: Now, there are times where I will put together like

2440
02:03:50,800 --> 02:03:53,600
Speaker 2: a shadow box or something like that, or tie like

2441
02:03:53,640 --> 02:03:56,280
Speaker 2: two or three dozen flies for silent auxs and charities.

2442
02:03:56,760 --> 02:03:59,160
Speaker 2: And then because I don't sell flies, then those those

2443
02:03:59,160 --> 02:04:02,160
Speaker 2: shadow boxes, those flies that are meant for fishing and whatnot,

2444
02:04:02,520 --> 02:04:05,520
Speaker 2: they go for an astronomical amount that helps those organizations out.

2445
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:08,040
Speaker 2: So maybe one the two times a year I'll offer

2446
02:04:08,080 --> 02:04:11,200
Speaker 2: flies for sale to help out a cause like I

2447
02:04:11,280 --> 02:04:13,920
Speaker 2: did one here for Warriors and Quiet Waters Foundations several

2448
02:04:14,000 --> 02:04:16,600
Speaker 2: years ago, and then they they paired it up with

2449
02:04:16,800 --> 02:04:19,160
Speaker 2: you know, nine nine rounds of golf with Jordan Speith,

2450
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:22,720
Speaker 2: and so they pair they do that with alumni where

2451
02:04:22,880 --> 02:04:26,320
Speaker 2: will some guides will take other people on the trip.

2452
02:04:26,760 --> 02:04:31,280
Speaker 2: I donated flies and then I do some for Healing Waters,

2453
02:04:31,320 --> 02:04:33,440
Speaker 2: like I still stay active with them, and then donate

2454
02:04:33,480 --> 02:04:37,280
Speaker 2: flies for the fly Fishing film tour in in Indianapolis,

2455
02:04:37,640 --> 02:04:41,080
Speaker 2: and they have a silent auction there and generally one

2456
02:04:41,120 --> 02:04:42,760
Speaker 2: of those shadow boxing go for as much as like

2457
02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:44,800
Speaker 2: five hundred and six hund dollars because people want some

2458
02:04:44,840 --> 02:04:46,520
Speaker 2: of these flies and I don't have them for sale.

2459
02:04:47,000 --> 02:04:48,880
Speaker 1: So you just live off your army money.

2460
02:04:49,400 --> 02:04:52,720
Speaker 2: Uh not totally. I mean I would be lying if

2461
02:04:52,760 --> 02:04:56,360
Speaker 2: I said that, because like on Facebook and on TikTok

2462
02:04:56,920 --> 02:04:58,520
Speaker 2: for videos, I get paid for.

2463
02:04:58,440 --> 02:04:58,920
Speaker 1: Some of the views.

2464
02:04:59,760 --> 02:05:02,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's some secondary income that comes off of that.

2465
02:05:03,440 --> 02:05:05,280
Speaker 2: I mean it's not you can make a living off

2466
02:05:05,280 --> 02:05:07,360
Speaker 2: of it per se, because I don't have like the

2467
02:05:07,400 --> 02:05:10,240
Speaker 2: millions of followers on YouTube or whatever. But it's enough

2468
02:05:10,280 --> 02:05:13,160
Speaker 2: to pay for a fishing trip here or there.

2469
02:05:13,520 --> 02:05:16,080
Speaker 1: So now that you're retiring from. Now that you're retiring

2470
02:05:16,080 --> 02:05:17,280
Speaker 1: from the army, what's your plan?

2471
02:05:18,200 --> 02:05:21,000
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of it's gonna be boiled down to

2472
02:05:21,200 --> 02:05:24,440
Speaker 2: what my wife wants to do, because for twenty two years,

2473
02:05:24,480 --> 02:05:27,640
Speaker 2: she well she's her and the kids have followed me

2474
02:05:27,680 --> 02:05:30,280
Speaker 2: around the country and then pretty much had really no

2475
02:05:30,360 --> 02:05:32,320
Speaker 2: say in the matter other than where we're gonna live

2476
02:05:32,360 --> 02:05:35,640
Speaker 2: once we got there. So they're gonna play a big

2477
02:05:35,680 --> 02:05:38,600
Speaker 2: part of it. I know they're more tempted to go

2478
02:05:38,640 --> 02:05:40,160
Speaker 2: back up to the Northeast to be close to the

2479
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:42,240
Speaker 2: family because my mom's starting to get up there in years,

2480
02:05:42,320 --> 02:05:46,160
Speaker 2: my sister, my brother lives there. But there are some opportunities.

2481
02:05:46,840 --> 02:05:48,560
Speaker 2: I do want to get into the outdoor industry. I

2482
02:05:48,600 --> 02:05:51,040
Speaker 2: cannot go back into the engineering world anymore. There's no

2483
02:05:51,080 --> 02:05:53,560
Speaker 2: way I could sit in a freaking cubicle for eight

2484
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:56,080
Speaker 2: hours a day after spending the last twenty years in

2485
02:05:56,080 --> 02:06:00,000
Speaker 2: the military. So there are some offers that I've had

2486
02:06:00,080 --> 02:06:05,880
Speaker 2: it for. Most of it's for guides, some of the

2487
02:06:05,880 --> 02:06:09,720
Speaker 2: working fly shops, for services, stuff like that. I mean,

2488
02:06:09,720 --> 02:06:13,560
Speaker 2: there's one offer here in Montana working with Healing Waters Lodge.

2489
02:06:14,880 --> 02:06:17,680
Speaker 2: Basically Mike Gary offered me to be one of the

2490
02:06:17,720 --> 02:06:20,080
Speaker 2: guides on his expeditions through the Smith River. He gets

2491
02:06:20,120 --> 02:06:21,920
Speaker 2: the large portion of the permits that go through there,

2492
02:06:22,400 --> 02:06:25,040
Speaker 2: and so he's always looking for vets to hire, and

2493
02:06:26,040 --> 02:06:28,680
Speaker 2: another ones to help a buddy that runs a guide

2494
02:06:28,760 --> 02:06:31,240
Speaker 2: business in Wyoming up there in the northwest, and the

2495
02:06:31,240 --> 02:06:36,200
Speaker 2: Titans doing some of those cutthroat type chips. So right now,

2496
02:06:36,240 --> 02:06:38,920
Speaker 2: it's it's still very fresh because the decision was, you know,

2497
02:06:39,000 --> 02:06:44,120
Speaker 2: finally made that we're going to retire next year, and

2498
02:06:44,240 --> 02:06:47,280
Speaker 2: so at this point right now, I'm just trying to

2499
02:06:47,360 --> 02:06:50,280
Speaker 2: figure out all the different objects of war. I finally

2500
02:06:50,280 --> 02:06:51,560
Speaker 2: decide which one I want to do.

2501
02:06:51,840 --> 02:06:53,240
Speaker 3: Retirement making nervous.

2502
02:06:53,600 --> 02:06:59,640
Speaker 2: It does because after doing it's almost like prison. The military.

2503
02:07:00,080 --> 02:07:03,400
Speaker 2: You had a structured lifestyle for twenty years and now

2504
02:07:03,480 --> 02:07:06,000
Speaker 2: suddenly all that's gonna go away and you're going into

2505
02:07:06,160 --> 02:07:10,240
Speaker 2: that civilian force and you're on your own. So yeah,

2506
02:07:10,280 --> 02:07:13,080
Speaker 2: anybody that says otherwise that was in the service, they're lying.

2507
02:07:13,280 --> 02:07:15,720
Speaker 3: All my buddies say it's hard, it's hard, and I

2508
02:07:15,760 --> 02:07:20,760
Speaker 3: mean for years right after. So yeah, it's a challenge.

2509
02:07:21,000 --> 02:07:25,760
Speaker 2: The other challenge is basically because I've always been in

2510
02:07:25,840 --> 02:07:28,240
Speaker 2: charge of large groups of people for so long now

2511
02:07:28,920 --> 02:07:32,400
Speaker 2: that everybody had to listen to, you know, orders that

2512
02:07:32,400 --> 02:07:35,320
Speaker 2: I gave, and going to civilian workforce ain't gonna be

2513
02:07:35,360 --> 02:07:37,000
Speaker 2: like that. I might have to work for an idiot

2514
02:07:37,160 --> 02:07:41,640
Speaker 2: that is no better than somebody that should be sitting

2515
02:07:41,880 --> 02:07:43,280
Speaker 2: by a dumpster somewhere.

2516
02:07:43,000 --> 02:07:45,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, you should be looking my boots, buddy.

2517
02:07:45,640 --> 02:07:48,360
Speaker 2: And I end up being a subordinate to them, and

2518
02:07:48,440 --> 02:07:50,240
Speaker 2: I have to bite my tongue. So those are things

2519
02:07:50,240 --> 02:07:54,080
Speaker 2: that you know, I am concerned about because somebody didn't

2520
02:07:54,120 --> 02:07:56,240
Speaker 2: like something, or I didn't like some the way somebody's

2521
02:07:56,280 --> 02:07:58,280
Speaker 2: doing something, I'd give them a nearful and then they

2522
02:07:58,320 --> 02:08:02,840
Speaker 2: would fix their their shit. And that's how the military works.

2523
02:08:02,880 --> 02:08:05,560
Speaker 2: That's where the discipline comes in. And I realized I'm

2524
02:08:05,560 --> 02:08:07,280
Speaker 2: not an idiot, and I realized you can't do that

2525
02:08:07,320 --> 02:08:09,160
Speaker 2: in the civilian workforce. But that does scare the shit

2526
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:11,480
Speaker 2: out of you too, having the work for people potentially

2527
02:08:11,480 --> 02:08:14,839
Speaker 2: that have no business being at charge of others.

2528
02:08:14,960 --> 02:08:18,000
Speaker 1: I got a friend I tell this story all the time.

2529
02:08:18,040 --> 02:08:20,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever mentioned it on the

2530
02:08:20,200 --> 02:08:23,760
Speaker 1: show here, but I have a friend who retired from

2531
02:08:23,760 --> 02:08:28,520
Speaker 1: the army, and then one of his teammates retired from

2532
02:08:28,520 --> 02:08:31,800
Speaker 1: the army, and right away as teammate killed himself. Yeah,

2533
02:08:31,920 --> 02:08:34,440
Speaker 1: I texted him, I said, I said, we were texting

2534
02:08:34,480 --> 02:08:36,840
Speaker 1: about this, and I'll always remember the text. The kind

2535
02:08:36,840 --> 02:08:39,280
Speaker 1: of one of the most compelling sentences I've ever received

2536
02:08:39,280 --> 02:08:41,640
Speaker 1: in a text message is I said, I don't understand, like,

2537
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:44,880
Speaker 1: what is that? Why does that happen like that? And

2538
02:08:44,960 --> 02:08:49,880
Speaker 1: his reply was it was the wild West during those

2539
02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:55,160
Speaker 1: war years and then it's over in an instant, And

2540
02:08:55,200 --> 02:08:58,720
Speaker 1: that was all that's in his mind, sufficed as an explanation.

2541
02:08:59,400 --> 02:09:00,400
Speaker 1: It's a really.

2542
02:09:00,280 --> 02:09:04,480
Speaker 2: Difficult subject to talk about because it's such a huge

2543
02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:07,360
Speaker 2: problem with veterans. I mean, there's all sorts of different stats.

2544
02:09:07,440 --> 02:09:09,280
Speaker 2: I'm not going to bore anybody with these different stats,

2545
02:09:09,280 --> 02:09:13,720
Speaker 2: but on average, you know, you have veterans that are

2546
02:09:13,760 --> 02:09:16,480
Speaker 2: over fifty percent likelier than their civilian counterparts that ever

2547
02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:20,040
Speaker 2: served to commit suicide. And the early parts of the war,

2548
02:09:20,240 --> 02:09:24,400
Speaker 2: He's very correct. They threw you into the waywell west

2549
02:09:24,720 --> 02:09:27,680
Speaker 2: you come back, and there was no support system. For example,

2550
02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:32,000
Speaker 2: my first deployment, we were the theater QRF in Iraq.

2551
02:09:32,560 --> 02:09:37,880
Speaker 2: They had no basically area of operations assigned for US specifically,

2552
02:09:38,280 --> 02:09:40,600
Speaker 2: so every time there was a major engagement going on,

2553
02:09:40,680 --> 02:09:43,959
Speaker 2: somewhere or things were about to flare up. They would

2554
02:09:44,240 --> 02:09:49,880
Speaker 2: move my entire battalion to that engagement, not realizing that

2555
02:09:50,920 --> 02:09:54,000
Speaker 2: all these different engagements, firefights that we were getting too,

2556
02:09:54,360 --> 02:09:57,320
Speaker 2: would have a toll. And so those were things that

2557
02:09:57,360 --> 02:10:00,000
Speaker 2: people never thought about back then. Like my battalion there

2558
02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:03,680
Speaker 2: probably got into more campaigns than any other unit they're

2559
02:10:03,720 --> 02:10:05,920
Speaker 2: in the history of the Iraq War because we were

2560
02:10:05,960 --> 02:10:08,560
Speaker 2: just like the theater cure out for everything, bouncing around.

2561
02:10:08,560 --> 02:10:11,280
Speaker 2: We didn't stay anywhere for longer than thirty five days.

2562
02:10:11,360 --> 02:10:13,640
Speaker 2: And so you have a bunch of young men and

2563
02:10:13,680 --> 02:10:17,200
Speaker 2: women that you know, some of them seventeen years old,

2564
02:10:17,200 --> 02:10:20,600
Speaker 2: eighteen years old, and they're seeing firefights and deaths for

2565
02:10:20,640 --> 02:10:22,920
Speaker 2: the first time. Id's going off the whole nine yards,

2566
02:10:22,920 --> 02:10:27,240
Speaker 2: local civilians getting blown up, all sorts of shit, and

2567
02:10:26,800 --> 02:10:31,280
Speaker 2: uh so we did that for fourteen months. If things

2568
02:10:31,320 --> 02:10:34,160
Speaker 2: weren't bad enough. They had initially told the unit we

2569
02:10:34,160 --> 02:10:36,320
Speaker 2: were going to be home by Christmas because it was

2570
02:10:36,360 --> 02:10:37,400
Speaker 2: going to be twelve months at that.

2571
02:10:37,360 --> 02:10:39,240
Speaker 3: Mark, which is kind of a big deal for people.

2572
02:10:39,360 --> 02:10:41,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was something to look forward to. So we were

2573
02:10:41,480 --> 02:10:43,360
Speaker 2: all looking forward to it. We're gonna be home by Christmas.

2574
02:10:43,600 --> 02:10:46,120
Speaker 2: Tell any of our loved ones, et cetera. And then

2575
02:10:46,280 --> 02:10:48,800
Speaker 2: the first elections happened in Iraq in two thousand and five,

2576
02:10:48,920 --> 02:10:52,640
Speaker 2: and they extended us for an additional couple three months,

2577
02:10:53,000 --> 02:10:54,600
Speaker 2: and they moved us to another area up there in

2578
02:10:54,600 --> 02:10:57,640
Speaker 2: Missoil to help oversee the security for these first elections.

2579
02:10:58,160 --> 02:11:00,400
Speaker 2: So Christmas went out the window, and we end up

2580
02:11:00,480 --> 02:11:03,000
Speaker 2: being there for fourteen months before the fifteen month deployments

2581
02:11:03,000 --> 02:11:05,120
Speaker 2: were even the thing. They were extending unit. There was

2582
02:11:05,160 --> 02:11:07,880
Speaker 2: like unit up in Alaska that were on their way

2583
02:11:07,880 --> 02:11:12,000
Speaker 2: home and got rerouted back. Yeah, so they had family

2584
02:11:12,040 --> 02:11:13,320
Speaker 2: members that were waiting at.

2585
02:11:13,200 --> 02:11:14,880
Speaker 1: Their talking about some phone calls.

2586
02:11:14,880 --> 02:11:17,680
Speaker 2: Man, oh yeah, I mean, holy shit. There were zero

2587
02:11:17,760 --> 02:11:20,800
Speaker 2: shits given about the repercussions of some of these actions

2588
02:11:21,120 --> 02:11:24,320
Speaker 2: because the war had to be fought as soldiers. You know,

2589
02:11:24,360 --> 02:11:27,320
Speaker 2: it sucks, but we did what we were told, So

2590
02:11:27,800 --> 02:11:31,440
Speaker 2: we went through all that. We get back and you

2591
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:35,840
Speaker 2: basically start taking thirty days of leave right away. Now

2592
02:11:36,800 --> 02:11:42,480
Speaker 2: the military is like a mountain pot of all different cultures, upbringings, backgrounds,

2593
02:11:42,480 --> 02:11:45,600
Speaker 2: and whatnot. You have some kids that never had a

2594
02:11:45,600 --> 02:11:48,400
Speaker 2: friend in their life and now suddenly they're surrounded by

2595
02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:50,760
Speaker 2: people that are watching their six all the time, and

2596
02:11:50,800 --> 02:11:53,280
Speaker 2: they have a supports system there. They're going through all

2597
02:11:53,320 --> 02:11:57,360
Speaker 2: this crap, getting into these engagement and these firefights, seeing

2598
02:11:57,440 --> 02:12:00,240
Speaker 2: him all sorts of stuff, but they had buddy there

2599
02:12:00,240 --> 02:12:02,240
Speaker 2: that we're dealing with the same stuff, and that's why

2600
02:12:02,280 --> 02:12:04,280
Speaker 2: it makes the military is very unique. The only other

2601
02:12:05,240 --> 02:12:07,440
Speaker 2: agencies that are very similar to that as like some of

2602
02:12:07,480 --> 02:12:13,880
Speaker 2: the the HRTs SWAT because they go through a lot

2603
02:12:13,880 --> 02:12:19,120
Speaker 2: of crap too, and so any organization that goes through

2604
02:12:19,320 --> 02:12:21,919
Speaker 2: a lot of heartache and a lot of suck fests

2605
02:12:21,960 --> 02:12:25,000
Speaker 2: in essence, the people get closer because you're enduring that

2606
02:12:25,160 --> 02:12:29,080
Speaker 2: same pain and all the horrible things that go with it.

2607
02:12:29,440 --> 02:12:31,720
Speaker 2: And so that's why the infantry is very unique. Like

2608
02:12:31,800 --> 02:12:36,880
Speaker 2: the special forces community and all the branches, whether it's

2609
02:12:36,880 --> 02:12:40,160
Speaker 2: the Seals, the Air Force, whatever, it's a very close

2610
02:12:40,240 --> 02:12:42,480
Speaker 2: knit group because all the things that you're dealing with,

2611
02:12:42,480 --> 02:12:45,080
Speaker 2: somebody else is dealing with too. So you have these

2612
02:12:45,120 --> 02:12:48,400
Speaker 2: young kids that had fellow buddies that were dealing with

2613
02:12:48,440 --> 02:12:50,560
Speaker 2: all that, so they never felt like they were alone.

2614
02:12:50,960 --> 02:12:54,520
Speaker 2: We get back from these deployments and then everybody's scattered

2615
02:12:54,520 --> 02:12:56,680
Speaker 2: to the four winds, and now suddenly you have these

2616
02:12:56,760 --> 02:12:58,400
Speaker 2: kids that never had a friend of their life until

2617
02:12:58,400 --> 02:13:01,680
Speaker 2: they joined the military or buy them cells for thirty

2618
02:13:01,720 --> 02:13:04,640
Speaker 2: freaking days after just going through all that crap overseas,

2619
02:13:05,240 --> 02:13:09,400
Speaker 2: and then those those demons start coming and they started

2620
02:13:09,400 --> 02:13:13,000
Speaker 2: getting those nightmares, they started hitting the bottle, they start

2621
02:13:13,200 --> 02:13:18,320
Speaker 2: taking drugs, and there was there's a major problem with

2622
02:13:18,760 --> 02:13:23,160
Speaker 2: basically suicide because the initial part of it was the

2623
02:13:23,160 --> 02:13:29,200
Speaker 2: PTSD from combat soldiers. Nowadays, the vast majority of soldiers

2624
02:13:29,240 --> 02:13:31,520
Speaker 2: that are committing suicide and activity have never been deployed.

2625
02:13:32,920 --> 02:13:35,520
Speaker 2: Veterans that have gotten out, some deployed, some don't. The

2626
02:13:35,560 --> 02:13:39,440
Speaker 2: vast majority have PTSD or from deployments. But there was

2627
02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:43,120
Speaker 2: never really a good support system in place for that

2628
02:13:43,280 --> 02:13:46,680
Speaker 2: entire global war terror on how to deal with soldiers

2629
02:13:47,080 --> 02:13:49,080
Speaker 2: come back from wars. We didn't learn a damn thing

2630
02:13:49,120 --> 02:13:52,000
Speaker 2: from the Vietnam War because those Vietnam vets came back

2631
02:13:52,040 --> 02:13:54,040
Speaker 2: with the same shit. They were dealing with the same

2632
02:13:54,080 --> 02:13:56,800
Speaker 2: issues soldiers from World War One, world War two. So

2633
02:13:56,800 --> 02:14:00,120
Speaker 2: you're talking about the entire history of America's wars. We

2634
02:14:00,160 --> 02:14:03,160
Speaker 2: didn't learn a thing. Basically, soldiers were just once you

2635
02:14:03,200 --> 02:14:04,800
Speaker 2: were done with you and they spit you out, you're

2636
02:14:04,800 --> 02:14:08,520
Speaker 2: off in your own and society didn't really know how

2637
02:14:08,560 --> 02:14:10,840
Speaker 2: to deal with soldiers and having all these these these

2638
02:14:10,880 --> 02:14:16,160
Speaker 2: different issues and demons. And for the soldiers, when you

2639
02:14:16,640 --> 02:14:18,880
Speaker 2: when we have a tendency to do something we don't

2640
02:14:18,880 --> 02:14:21,200
Speaker 2: have as it, we just go full bore. There's no

2641
02:14:21,240 --> 02:14:24,440
Speaker 2: different with suicide. There's a difference between crying out for

2642
02:14:24,480 --> 02:14:28,160
Speaker 2: help and if you actually want to commit suicide, soldiers

2643
02:14:28,200 --> 02:14:31,240
Speaker 2: will do it. And a lot of times, uh, there

2644
02:14:31,240 --> 02:14:33,280
Speaker 2: are sums that have warning signs that you could tell

2645
02:14:33,280 --> 02:14:36,440
Speaker 2: there's something wrong and then uh, just be be a

2646
02:14:36,440 --> 02:14:39,160
Speaker 2: buddy and ask direct, are you going to hurt yourself?

2647
02:14:39,800 --> 02:14:42,640
Speaker 2: Is something? Is everything? Okay, just be direct. But there

2648
02:14:42,640 --> 02:14:45,360
Speaker 2: are other ones that will hide all those demons and

2649
02:14:45,440 --> 02:14:48,800
Speaker 2: have no idea that you have, no idea that they're

2650
02:14:48,800 --> 02:14:50,720
Speaker 2: contemplating suicide in the side that brings because they would

2651
02:14:50,760 --> 02:14:55,240
Speaker 2: put on that facade and I ran across that multiple times.

2652
02:14:55,240 --> 02:14:57,920
Speaker 2: My last unit over in Colorado, we had five suicides

2653
02:14:58,120 --> 02:15:01,320
Speaker 2: in our battalion alone in one year, and none of

2654
02:15:01,320 --> 02:15:02,080
Speaker 2: those kids deployed.

2655
02:15:02,120 --> 02:15:03,320
Speaker 1: What's the battalion size?

2656
02:15:03,680 --> 02:15:05,600
Speaker 2: Italian size was roughly about nine.

2657
02:15:05,560 --> 02:15:09,440
Speaker 1: Hundred and five suicides in one year.

2658
02:15:09,440 --> 02:15:11,120
Speaker 2: We had I think it was close to eleven and

2659
02:15:11,160 --> 02:15:14,040
Speaker 2: three years, and these were most of these kids were

2660
02:15:14,080 --> 02:15:19,600
Speaker 2: nineteen and twenty five, never deployed, So it's it's there's

2661
02:15:19,680 --> 02:15:23,840
Speaker 2: trauma that that soldiers that deployed have, and there's also

2662
02:15:23,880 --> 02:15:28,840
Speaker 2: trauma that soldiers never deployed have because the lifestyle sometimes

2663
02:15:29,000 --> 02:15:33,760
Speaker 2: is enough for soldiers to push them one way or another,

2664
02:15:33,800 --> 02:15:35,320
Speaker 2: and a lot of vast majority and I think this

2665
02:15:35,400 --> 02:15:39,120
Speaker 2: also applies probably to all civilians too, where you start

2666
02:15:39,160 --> 02:15:44,600
Speaker 2: mixing alcohol, drugs, financial merital issues, those are usually the

2667
02:15:44,640 --> 02:15:47,480
Speaker 2: big ones right there that will push people towards suicide.

2668
02:15:47,960 --> 02:15:50,200
Speaker 2: And you combine those things together and you're talking about

2669
02:15:50,240 --> 02:15:56,280
Speaker 2: it recipe for disaster. And unfortunately, the stigma with seeking

2670
02:15:56,320 --> 02:15:59,240
Speaker 2: help is still strong and prevalent to this day the

2671
02:15:59,280 --> 02:16:02,120
Speaker 2: longest time for my vast majority of my military career.

2672
02:16:02,120 --> 02:16:03,760
Speaker 2: If you told somebody you had to go see a

2673
02:16:03,800 --> 02:16:07,280
Speaker 2: behavior health specialist for some mental health stuff, you were

2674
02:16:07,360 --> 02:16:11,200
Speaker 2: labeled and then you were basically like an outcast. And

2675
02:16:11,240 --> 02:16:13,840
Speaker 2: then the military eventually realized that I was wrong, and then

2676
02:16:13,920 --> 02:16:18,400
Speaker 2: they start encouraging people to go seek help to deal

2677
02:16:18,440 --> 02:16:21,320
Speaker 2: with all these issues without having any repercussions. But for

2678
02:16:21,320 --> 02:16:24,560
Speaker 2: a while, there were repercussions if you sought medical assistance

2679
02:16:24,560 --> 02:16:29,760
Speaker 2: for mental health. But even though people say no, nobody's

2680
02:16:29,760 --> 02:16:32,280
Speaker 2: gonna judge you for that, there's still that strong stigma

2681
02:16:32,800 --> 02:16:37,000
Speaker 2: and people are afraid of being labeled or having that sigma.

2682
02:16:37,080 --> 02:16:39,600
Speaker 2: And I think it's military and civilian side, but I'm

2683
02:16:39,600 --> 02:16:42,400
Speaker 2: telling you it's like, no matter how bad it is,

2684
02:16:42,879 --> 02:16:45,680
Speaker 2: it's never that bad where your life is not that important,

2685
02:16:45,879 --> 02:16:48,240
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of different agencies out there that

2686
02:16:48,240 --> 02:16:51,480
Speaker 2: can help you. The most important ones, like I said,

2687
02:16:51,520 --> 02:16:53,440
Speaker 2: are the ones that are available twenty four hours a day,

2688
02:16:53,480 --> 02:16:55,480
Speaker 2: regardless of where you're at, and you could talk to

2689
02:16:55,520 --> 02:16:57,560
Speaker 2: them and nobody will know. Ninety eighty eight is a

2690
02:16:57,600 --> 02:16:58,320
Speaker 2: really good one.

2691
02:16:58,720 --> 02:17:00,160
Speaker 1: So say that one again.

2692
02:17:01,400 --> 02:17:04,000
Speaker 2: You could text, call, or chat and it's completely anonymous,

2693
02:17:04,000 --> 02:17:04,920
Speaker 2: and they're a nine.

2694
02:17:04,879 --> 02:17:09,279
Speaker 1: Eight eight short core and well it's like nine but different.

2695
02:17:09,360 --> 02:17:10,520
Speaker 2: Just text ninet eighty eight yep.

2696
02:17:11,280 --> 02:17:13,680
Speaker 7: And then let me explain a little bit about that one.

2697
02:17:13,760 --> 02:17:18,959
Speaker 8: And I'll put a list of organizations and resources in

2698
02:17:19,000 --> 02:17:21,200
Speaker 8: the show notes, but if we can verbalize some of

2699
02:17:21,200 --> 02:17:22,400
Speaker 8: that on air, it'd be helpful.

2700
02:17:22,480 --> 02:17:26,640
Speaker 2: They're available to military and civilians, it's to everybody. And

2701
02:17:26,920 --> 02:17:29,720
Speaker 2: if you ever are feeling down and you think that

2702
02:17:29,840 --> 02:17:34,000
Speaker 2: you may possibly hurt yourself. You could text, call, or

2703
02:17:34,480 --> 02:17:37,680
Speaker 2: chat with somebody and then they will get you professional

2704
02:17:37,720 --> 02:17:39,880
Speaker 2: health and no cost to you, and it's available twenty

2705
02:17:39,879 --> 02:17:42,880
Speaker 2: four hours a day. The other one stops soldier suicide.

2706
02:17:42,959 --> 02:17:46,440
Speaker 2: They have the the one eight number that's also twenty

2707
02:17:46,440 --> 02:17:49,480
Speaker 2: four hours a day where you can get professional health

2708
02:17:49,640 --> 02:17:53,480
Speaker 2: or active duty military regardless of branch. And then those

2709
02:17:53,520 --> 02:17:58,040
Speaker 2: that are transitioning within are three hundred and sixty five

2710
02:17:58,080 --> 02:18:00,560
Speaker 2: basically one year from the time your separation and under

2711
02:18:01,120 --> 02:18:03,920
Speaker 2: You could also utilize Military one source dot com. I

2712
02:18:03,959 --> 02:18:06,200
Speaker 2: know a lot of my fellow brothers and sisters don't

2713
02:18:06,240 --> 02:18:09,520
Speaker 2: like that stigma of seeking behavioral health. So if you

2714
02:18:09,520 --> 02:18:14,119
Speaker 2: go to Military one Source, you will get five counseling

2715
02:18:14,160 --> 02:18:17,000
Speaker 2: sessions with a professional that's completely anonymous that never gets

2716
02:18:17,080 --> 02:18:19,160
Speaker 2: reported to your chain of command, So that way you

2717
02:18:19,160 --> 02:18:22,080
Speaker 2: can get that help. But there the VA also has

2718
02:18:22,120 --> 02:18:25,320
Speaker 2: a hotline that you can call. There's multiple agencies. Like

2719
02:18:25,560 --> 02:18:28,600
Speaker 2: Corn said, she'll publish a list. But your life is

2720
02:18:28,600 --> 02:18:30,880
Speaker 2: important because the minute you're gone, you leave avoid in

2721
02:18:30,920 --> 02:18:34,320
Speaker 2: somebody's life. I mean, it's a difficult subject to talk about,

2722
02:18:34,400 --> 02:18:37,600
Speaker 2: but it's a reality. And then the problem is there's

2723
02:18:37,600 --> 02:18:39,119
Speaker 2: a lot of leaders that don't know how to deal

2724
02:18:39,160 --> 02:18:41,800
Speaker 2: with it, so they either brush it off turn a

2725
02:18:41,800 --> 02:18:44,039
Speaker 2: blind eye to it. And then leaders also fail to

2726
02:18:44,120 --> 02:18:47,720
Speaker 2: change with the times. So like this current generation, like

2727
02:18:47,879 --> 02:18:50,040
Speaker 2: I label. I know people hate label, but I call

2728
02:18:50,080 --> 02:18:52,920
Speaker 2: them the meat generation. Because everything's instantaneous. With the push

2729
02:18:52,920 --> 02:18:56,280
Speaker 2: of a button, you want something tomorrow, Amazon one day delivery,

2730
02:18:57,320 --> 02:19:00,000
Speaker 2: within two days, you're gonna have something else. Everything is

2731
02:18:59,879 --> 02:19:02,800
Speaker 2: instantaneous at the touch of the phone. So social media

2732
02:19:02,800 --> 02:19:05,879
Speaker 2: and smartphones are have been great to the network and

2733
02:19:06,040 --> 02:19:07,640
Speaker 2: reach out to others, but also it's been a curse

2734
02:19:07,680 --> 02:19:10,400
Speaker 2: because you could hide behind being an anonymous person, behind

2735
02:19:10,440 --> 02:19:14,959
Speaker 2: that and show a different facade, and then the same

2736
02:19:15,000 --> 02:19:17,840
Speaker 2: deal with when you start suffering it through through all

2737
02:19:17,840 --> 02:19:21,640
Speaker 2: these mental pains or life issues that you're dealing with.

2738
02:19:22,440 --> 02:19:25,480
Speaker 2: Just like ordering something instantaneously, you could just not deal

2739
02:19:25,520 --> 02:19:29,080
Speaker 2: with it instantaneously. And it needs to stop. And the

2740
02:19:29,120 --> 02:19:31,080
Speaker 2: only way it can stop is to educate people that

2741
02:19:31,160 --> 02:19:34,560
Speaker 2: it's okay to have issues and to seek out that help.

2742
02:19:34,760 --> 02:19:37,880
Speaker 2: Because everybody, regardless you know what ma Maye joke about,

2743
02:19:37,879 --> 02:19:39,920
Speaker 2: has an important role to play because there's people that

2744
02:19:39,959 --> 02:19:42,680
Speaker 2: care about and that's military and civilians.

2745
02:19:42,680 --> 02:19:47,400
Speaker 1: I like, well, man, I appreciate the you being so

2746
02:19:47,920 --> 02:19:49,439
Speaker 1: open about it.

2747
02:19:49,440 --> 02:19:52,080
Speaker 2: It's tough and there's some things you know, I'll be

2748
02:19:52,120 --> 02:19:53,840
Speaker 2: a blunt I don't like talking about it because it

2749
02:19:53,879 --> 02:19:58,119
Speaker 2: brings back bad memories, it brings back people that I've

2750
02:19:58,160 --> 02:20:01,520
Speaker 2: cared about. But I feel it's important because there's so

2751
02:20:01,560 --> 02:20:04,520
Speaker 2: many people that are taking away their lives way too soon,

2752
02:20:04,920 --> 02:20:09,000
Speaker 2: not realizing there's more to come. I've gone through my

2753
02:20:09,040 --> 02:20:13,520
Speaker 2: fair share heart ache two and try to utilize different

2754
02:20:13,560 --> 02:20:16,119
Speaker 2: means to drown out that pain. And I still get

2755
02:20:16,200 --> 02:20:19,440
Speaker 2: nightmares nowadays. But at the same time, you have to

2756
02:20:19,480 --> 02:20:28,480
Speaker 2: find basically an outlet, like a a useful outlet. I

2757
02:20:28,520 --> 02:20:31,039
Speaker 2: don't know what the right word is, but something constructive.

2758
02:20:31,240 --> 02:20:34,440
Speaker 2: And for me it was fly fishing. For me, it's

2759
02:20:34,440 --> 02:20:38,400
Speaker 2: being outdoors, whether it's taking photographs because I love photography also,

2760
02:20:39,440 --> 02:20:41,840
Speaker 2: or hiking or whatever the case may be. And then

2761
02:20:41,879 --> 02:20:45,520
Speaker 2: my kids are another big part of that. For you,

2762
02:20:45,520 --> 02:20:47,880
Speaker 2: it might be something else, but you have to find

2763
02:20:47,920 --> 02:20:51,600
Speaker 2: something that is constructive means if you're so focused, because

2764
02:20:51,600 --> 02:20:54,160
Speaker 2: for so long I was focused on just military military

2765
02:20:54,160 --> 02:20:57,120
Speaker 2: and military combat, combat combat, and then I was destroying

2766
02:20:57,120 --> 02:20:59,879
Speaker 2: my own self. If you go down that route, that

2767
02:21:00,120 --> 02:21:04,280
Speaker 2: that route, then you're going to be in a dark place.

2768
02:21:04,440 --> 02:21:06,480
Speaker 2: So regardless of whether you're in your service for the

2769
02:21:06,520 --> 02:21:09,760
Speaker 2: first year or you're in your fifteenth twenty year service,

2770
02:21:09,879 --> 02:21:12,640
Speaker 2: find a constructive outlet because you have to do something

2771
02:21:12,680 --> 02:21:15,760
Speaker 2: that will take your mind off of all the crap

2772
02:21:15,800 --> 02:21:17,320
Speaker 2: that you deal with on a day to day basis.

2773
02:21:17,480 --> 02:21:19,320
Speaker 2: And if you're not in the service, same deal, it's

2774
02:21:19,360 --> 02:21:21,280
Speaker 2: no different. It's anybody out there. You can have some

2775
02:21:21,320 --> 02:21:24,760
Speaker 2: type of constructive hobby. That's why hunting and fishing is

2776
02:21:24,760 --> 02:21:25,360
Speaker 2: so great for that.

2777
02:21:25,879 --> 02:21:30,320
Speaker 8: And there are organizations like Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, Armed

2778
02:21:30,360 --> 02:21:35,760
Speaker 8: Forces Initiative, others that are in the outdoor industry that

2779
02:21:36,360 --> 02:21:37,720
Speaker 8: are vets support.

2780
02:21:37,840 --> 02:21:38,520
Speaker 7: I know that you.

2781
02:21:40,120 --> 02:21:43,480
Speaker 8: Work with Warriors and Quiet Waters a lot too, so

2782
02:21:43,520 --> 02:21:45,240
Speaker 8: feel free to share about that.

2783
02:21:45,520 --> 02:21:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I came here. Gosh, it was like I

2784
02:21:49,440 --> 02:21:53,440
Speaker 2: think two thousand and seventeen or twenty eighteen, and the

2785
02:21:53,480 --> 02:21:55,440
Speaker 2: program was a little bit different than they brought. I

2786
02:21:55,480 --> 02:21:58,160
Speaker 2: think it was six of US veterans. There were three

2787
02:21:58,280 --> 02:22:01,120
Speaker 2: Navy Seals guy, two other guys that were out of

2788
02:22:01,120 --> 02:22:05,039
Speaker 2: the service altogether because of injuries they had sustained. And

2789
02:22:05,080 --> 02:22:09,680
Speaker 2: then you had volunteers. Some were prior militaries. Some had

2790
02:22:09,879 --> 02:22:12,840
Speaker 2: kids that were in the military. My my buddy that

2791
02:22:12,920 --> 02:22:15,040
Speaker 2: was that was partnering with me was a gold Star

2792
02:22:15,320 --> 02:22:18,560
Speaker 2: family member where he had a son that died in combat,

2793
02:22:19,200 --> 02:22:21,160
Speaker 2: but the honorest son he wanted to give back still,

2794
02:22:21,200 --> 02:22:23,360
Speaker 2: so he was a volunteer there over the Quiet Water's ranch,

2795
02:22:23,720 --> 02:22:25,840
Speaker 2: and they brought us in together and then they they

2796
02:22:25,879 --> 02:22:30,279
Speaker 2: basically immersed us into fishing, teaching us how to fish.

2797
02:22:30,920 --> 02:22:33,280
Speaker 2: And then it's just like most most veterans, like the

2798
02:22:33,280 --> 02:22:35,760
Speaker 2: first day, nobody's really talking because you don't know who's who.

2799
02:22:36,720 --> 02:22:38,600
Speaker 2: Day two they started chatting a little bit, and by

2800
02:22:38,680 --> 02:22:41,680
Speaker 2: day three they're talking to their buddies, the volunteers, and

2801
02:22:41,760 --> 02:22:44,959
Speaker 2: then by day four, everybody's hugging and laughing. By day five,

2802
02:22:45,000 --> 02:22:48,160
Speaker 2: people are sharing their experiences, and it's it gets to

2803
02:22:48,200 --> 02:22:51,480
Speaker 2: be pretty emotional because you think that you're going through

2804
02:22:51,480 --> 02:22:53,600
Speaker 2: some shiit and you hear some of these stories of

2805
02:22:53,800 --> 02:22:56,080
Speaker 2: what people are dealing with. Like the one guy there

2806
02:22:56,240 --> 02:22:59,240
Speaker 2: that was at that ranch during my first encounter with

2807
02:22:59,560 --> 02:23:04,279
Speaker 2: quiet he had entirely his entire insides like blowing out backwards,

2808
02:23:04,480 --> 02:23:07,119
Speaker 2: and he was he was in pain all the time,

2809
02:23:07,320 --> 02:23:10,000
Speaker 2: the scars that he had there because like missing parts

2810
02:23:10,000 --> 02:23:13,840
Speaker 2: of his intestines and whatnot. Sow He's he was a

2811
02:23:13,879 --> 02:23:17,440
Speaker 2: vet that lost both legs from California. He came back here.

2812
02:23:17,520 --> 02:23:19,680
Speaker 2: Now he's one of the program leads that over there

2813
02:23:19,680 --> 02:23:22,360
Speaker 2: and Quiet Waters ran they do a lot for veterans

2814
02:23:22,440 --> 02:23:25,600
Speaker 2: and they immersed them here in Montana and show him

2815
02:23:25,640 --> 02:23:29,200
Speaker 2: that there there's ways to heal through the outdoors. But

2816
02:23:29,720 --> 02:23:32,720
Speaker 2: the great thing about those organizations like Quiet Waters is

2817
02:23:32,760 --> 02:23:34,879
Speaker 2: like when you're done with the program, you're not done.

2818
02:23:35,040 --> 02:23:37,360
Speaker 2: They don't just like check you off. Like I still

2819
02:23:37,360 --> 02:23:39,360
Speaker 2: stay in contact with Jesse, who I met, you know

2820
02:23:39,360 --> 02:23:41,199
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight. I'm going fishing within tomorrow.

2821
02:23:41,720 --> 02:23:45,080
Speaker 2: And you're part of that outreach or that reach. Their

2822
02:23:45,160 --> 02:23:49,000
Speaker 2: outreach to you is all year long, and you're just

2823
02:23:49,040 --> 02:23:52,000
Speaker 2: because you went through there, you're not forgotten. You're always

2824
02:23:52,040 --> 02:23:55,120
Speaker 2: gonna be an alumni. And I've came back again a couple

2825
02:23:55,120 --> 02:23:56,640
Speaker 2: of years later. It was last year I flowed the

2826
02:23:56,640 --> 02:23:59,520
Speaker 2: Smith River them and then coincide in this podcast here

2827
02:23:59,560 --> 02:24:02,879
Speaker 2: to go to Warrior Taste Vest this Friday to reconnect

2828
02:24:02,959 --> 02:24:05,680
Speaker 2: with a lot of the members. There are the volunteers

2829
02:24:05,680 --> 02:24:09,360
Speaker 2: and they're sixteen alumni that are coming back so they're

2830
02:24:09,360 --> 02:24:11,480
Speaker 2: one of the great organizations out there. There's a lot

2831
02:24:11,480 --> 02:24:13,160
Speaker 2: of them. We don't have time to show to mention

2832
02:24:13,360 --> 02:24:15,560
Speaker 2: all these different veterans organizations, but there's a lot of

2833
02:24:15,640 --> 02:24:21,039
Speaker 2: organizations out there that will help. And regardless of your

2834
02:24:21,120 --> 02:24:24,280
Speaker 2: level expectees, you can have no idea what you're doing

2835
02:24:24,480 --> 02:24:27,760
Speaker 2: and they'll teach you everything you need to know. The

2836
02:24:27,760 --> 02:24:29,880
Speaker 2: same deal with if you don't have any interest in fishing,

2837
02:24:30,280 --> 02:24:32,680
Speaker 2: there's hunt for a Purpose. They'll teach you how to hunt.

2838
02:24:32,640 --> 02:24:34,840
Speaker 2: They'll teach you how to fire a rifle, they'll teach

2839
02:24:34,840 --> 02:24:36,400
Speaker 2: you how to use a boat.

2840
02:24:36,560 --> 02:24:39,040
Speaker 1: Warriors for Quiet Waters. I went and gave a talk

2841
02:24:39,080 --> 02:24:41,240
Speaker 1: there because they're doing some stuff unhunting right now.

2842
02:24:41,400 --> 02:24:45,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have like basically, I think it's a six

2843
02:24:45,280 --> 02:24:48,640
Speaker 2: month hunting program yep, where you teach o the fundamentals

2844
02:24:48,640 --> 02:24:51,880
Speaker 2: of hunting from you know, selecting equipment to all the

2845
02:24:51,920 --> 02:24:54,640
Speaker 2: way the end result of stalking and firing that boat.

2846
02:24:54,680 --> 02:24:56,920
Speaker 4: A lot of those guys probably know their way around

2847
02:24:56,959 --> 02:24:58,600
Speaker 4: to rifle pretty well already though.

2848
02:24:58,879 --> 02:25:02,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. Let me hit you with one last question.

2849
02:25:03,240 --> 02:25:04,959
Speaker 1: Twenty two you've been married twenty two years?

2850
02:25:05,080 --> 02:25:07,360
Speaker 2: No, No, I've been married eighteen years.

2851
02:25:07,400 --> 02:25:07,960
Speaker 1: Eighteen years.

2852
02:25:08,000 --> 02:25:10,000
Speaker 2: Yep, I met her after being in service for about

2853
02:25:10,000 --> 02:25:10,400
Speaker 2: four years.

2854
02:25:10,480 --> 02:25:12,160
Speaker 1: Hit us with some marriage Hit me with your best

2855
02:25:12,160 --> 02:25:12,840
Speaker 1: marriage advice.

2856
02:25:13,720 --> 02:25:16,440
Speaker 2: You're never the boss, that's the god.

2857
02:25:16,480 --> 02:25:16,720
Speaker 1: Honest.

2858
02:25:17,040 --> 02:25:19,000
Speaker 2: This goes out to men and women, men and women,

2859
02:25:19,280 --> 02:25:21,240
Speaker 2: but mainly to the men, because most of the men

2860
02:25:21,240 --> 02:25:23,400
Speaker 2: thinks they wear in the family the pants in the family.

2861
02:25:24,440 --> 02:25:28,400
Speaker 2: How I kept my marriage together compared to most other

2862
02:25:28,560 --> 02:25:31,520
Speaker 2: soldiers is every time I deployed, I came back like

2863
02:25:31,560 --> 02:25:34,680
Speaker 2: a different person. And then while I'm gone, despite my

2864
02:25:34,920 --> 02:25:38,320
Speaker 2: what you may think, life goes on. There's still bills

2865
02:25:38,360 --> 02:25:40,160
Speaker 2: that have to be paid, there's still kids that need

2866
02:25:40,160 --> 02:25:42,040
Speaker 2: to be fit, there's still diapers that gotta be changed.

2867
02:25:42,360 --> 02:25:44,480
Speaker 2: And your significant other is the one that's doing all

2868
02:25:44,520 --> 02:25:46,480
Speaker 2: that while you're going out there fighting for your country.

2869
02:25:47,000 --> 02:25:49,000
Speaker 2: So when you come back and you try to basically

2870
02:25:49,080 --> 02:25:52,200
Speaker 2: take over all those same responsibilities again, you're about to

2871
02:25:52,240 --> 02:25:54,520
Speaker 2: get into the boxing match because they also changed. They

2872
02:25:54,520 --> 02:25:56,959
Speaker 2: got used to you being one, They got used to

2873
02:25:57,040 --> 02:26:00,320
Speaker 2: handling all that shit that you used to do. So

2874
02:26:00,360 --> 02:26:01,959
Speaker 2: you have to ease yourself back into it.

2875
02:26:02,080 --> 02:26:04,840
Speaker 1: If they come in pissing on your post.

2876
02:26:05,640 --> 02:26:07,880
Speaker 2: And that's how like that was the success to my

2877
02:26:07,920 --> 02:26:11,760
Speaker 2: marriage is coming back and then allowing her to still

2878
02:26:11,920 --> 02:26:13,800
Speaker 2: do whatever she wanted to do while I was gone,

2879
02:26:13,800 --> 02:26:15,959
Speaker 2: and then she wanted me to take over something she

2880
02:26:15,959 --> 02:26:19,160
Speaker 2: would vocalize it. I never pretended like I was in charge.

2881
02:26:19,200 --> 02:26:22,200
Speaker 2: I knew after my first deployment there, I was no

2882
02:26:22,240 --> 02:26:25,199
Speaker 2: longer in charge because she was strong enough to handle

2883
02:26:25,200 --> 02:26:27,080
Speaker 2: an entire household with kids while I was going.

2884
02:26:29,680 --> 02:26:32,320
Speaker 1: Because I travel a lot for work and have the

2885
02:26:32,360 --> 02:26:36,200
Speaker 1: whole time I've you know, known my wife. She a

2886
02:26:36,240 --> 02:26:40,400
Speaker 1: while came up with a thing where she said, if

2887
02:26:40,400 --> 02:26:42,360
Speaker 1: it's not going to be a big deal when you leave,

2888
02:26:43,080 --> 02:26:44,400
Speaker 1: it's not going to be a big deal when you

2889
02:26:44,400 --> 02:26:47,760
Speaker 1: come home. And there's a lot. There's a lot to that.

2890
02:26:50,040 --> 02:26:53,039
Speaker 2: I also had one thing before we end it. So

2891
02:26:53,120 --> 02:26:57,800
Speaker 2: with fly fishing, regardless of your level expertise when it

2892
02:26:57,840 --> 02:27:00,480
Speaker 2: comes to it, there's a these shows that it around

2893
02:27:00,520 --> 02:27:02,280
Speaker 2: all over the US. If you ever want to dip

2894
02:27:02,320 --> 02:27:04,000
Speaker 2: your fingers into it, just check what I was like

2895
02:27:04,240 --> 02:27:08,000
Speaker 2: to see some tying or see people demonstrate casting. The

2896
02:27:08,480 --> 02:27:11,400
Speaker 2: fly Fishing Show has shows all across the US, from

2897
02:27:11,440 --> 02:27:14,320
Speaker 2: California all the way in Massachusetts down the Georgia and

2898
02:27:14,320 --> 02:27:17,360
Speaker 2: then during my first exposure with this show, I met

2899
02:27:17,400 --> 02:27:19,800
Speaker 2: a lot of really really great people all across the industry.

2900
02:27:19,800 --> 02:27:22,800
Speaker 2: I met several people from Montana to California, all ver

2901
02:27:23,080 --> 02:27:25,440
Speaker 2: like you get tires that come over from Europe to

2902
02:27:25,520 --> 02:27:28,280
Speaker 2: come there, and these different authors. And then one of

2903
02:27:28,280 --> 02:27:31,560
Speaker 2: the great organizations that I met, well there is Uncharted

2904
02:27:31,600 --> 02:27:34,920
Speaker 2: Outdoors Women. They're based out of Colorado, and they're also

2905
02:27:35,000 --> 02:27:38,560
Speaker 2: trying to break the stigma of having women in the

2906
02:27:38,600 --> 02:27:42,360
Speaker 2: outdoor industry, where they take it upon themselves to take

2907
02:27:42,840 --> 02:27:46,000
Speaker 2: women fly fishing, taking them on hunts, whether it's duck, geese,

2908
02:27:47,120 --> 02:27:51,400
Speaker 2: animal calls. So my grand friend Aaron spearheads all that

2909
02:27:51,600 --> 02:27:56,760
Speaker 2: and she basically takes takes the role of the lead

2910
02:27:56,879 --> 02:28:01,480
Speaker 2: for Colorado, Montana, Oregon Ome. She just does all this

2911
02:28:01,480 --> 02:28:03,800
Speaker 2: stuff here to get more women out there. So there's

2912
02:28:03,840 --> 02:28:07,279
Speaker 2: a huge stigma that this is a male dominated industry

2913
02:28:07,440 --> 02:28:09,320
Speaker 2: is so far from the truth. Yeah, you have some

2914
02:28:09,400 --> 02:28:12,440
Speaker 2: idiots out there that may say that, but we welcome

2915
02:28:12,560 --> 02:28:16,200
Speaker 2: all genders, regardless of whether you're male or female. Pick

2916
02:28:16,240 --> 02:28:17,720
Speaker 2: up a bowl, pick up a rifle, pick up a

2917
02:28:17,720 --> 02:28:19,800
Speaker 2: fly rod, You're welcome in this industry. And I just

2918
02:28:19,840 --> 02:28:21,480
Speaker 2: had to give that shout out to Aaron, and.

2919
02:28:21,800 --> 02:28:25,320
Speaker 1: Then thanks man, Good luck fishing tomorrow.

2920
02:28:25,840 --> 02:28:27,720
Speaker 2: Hopefully it should be a good time of year with

2921
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:30,000
Speaker 2: a hopper season here in September. This is like literally

2922
02:28:30,040 --> 02:28:31,760
Speaker 2: probably the best month of fish here in Montana.

2923
02:28:32,240 --> 02:28:33,440
Speaker 3: Got some cooler tamps.

2924
02:28:33,520 --> 02:28:37,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then, so here's a litt unknown fact, useless

2925
02:28:37,760 --> 02:28:41,640
Speaker 2: fact that I'm really good at. Is these hoppers, grasshoppers,

2926
02:28:41,720 --> 02:28:45,120
Speaker 2: crickets or whatever, they have a parasite called the horsehair

2927
02:28:45,200 --> 02:28:49,840
Speaker 2: worm that they ingest when they eat grass. They grow

2928
02:28:50,520 --> 02:28:54,960
Speaker 2: us right, and they grow into this parasite inside the

2929
02:28:56,000 --> 02:28:58,840
Speaker 2: grasshopper or the crickets or whatever, And when it's time

2930
02:28:58,920 --> 02:29:03,040
Speaker 2: for those pairs to breed, they take over those hoppers'

2931
02:29:03,080 --> 02:29:05,520
Speaker 2: brains and they make them jump into the water commit

2932
02:29:05,560 --> 02:29:09,840
Speaker 2: kamakazi suicide so that they can basically expel themselves out

2933
02:29:09,840 --> 02:29:12,640
Speaker 2: of the hopper and then get find a mate, lay

2934
02:29:12,680 --> 02:29:14,480
Speaker 2: eggs in the grass, and the cycle starts all over again,

2935
02:29:14,480 --> 02:29:17,040
Speaker 2: because when the water level drops, grasshoppers eat the grass

2936
02:29:17,160 --> 02:29:19,440
Speaker 2: they get effect again. So that's why grasshoppers jump in

2937
02:29:19,440 --> 02:29:21,840
Speaker 2: the water at this time of the year and dry

2938
02:29:21,879 --> 02:29:22,600
Speaker 2: dropper rigs work.

2939
02:29:22,760 --> 02:29:25,320
Speaker 1: I thought it was all accident. I thought he meant

2940
02:29:25,320 --> 02:29:27,119
Speaker 1: to land somewhere else, But landing in the water.

2941
02:29:27,600 --> 02:29:29,400
Speaker 2: They all land in the water for that reason, because

2942
02:29:29,440 --> 02:29:31,400
Speaker 2: those horse hair worms need the water in order to

2943
02:29:31,480 --> 02:29:35,480
Speaker 2: find a meat. So that's why September at early, my.

2944
02:29:35,440 --> 02:29:40,440
Speaker 1: Kids must be infected with that parasite land in the water,

2945
02:29:41,560 --> 02:29:44,840
Speaker 1: no matter what they're doing. All right, man, thanks for

2946
02:29:44,879 --> 02:29:46,680
Speaker 1: coming on. Man, it's been a great conversation. I really

2947
02:29:46,680 --> 02:29:48,720
Speaker 1: appreciate it, and I appreciate all the you know, I

2948
02:29:48,760 --> 02:29:50,680
Speaker 1: don't want to call it advice, but the guidance for

2949
02:29:50,720 --> 02:29:54,040
Speaker 1: people who might be who might be in a you know,

2950
02:29:54,080 --> 02:29:57,160
Speaker 1: in a bad state of affairs, but fear that stigma

2951
02:29:57,240 --> 02:29:59,959
Speaker 1: or fear reaching out. So I think it's it's great

2952
02:30:00,080 --> 02:30:01,800
Speaker 1: for you to speak to it from that, from that

2953
02:30:01,920 --> 02:30:03,440
Speaker 1: position of having been there. So thank you.

2954
02:30:03,680 --> 02:30:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if I'd reached one vet that's listening to

2955
02:30:06,879 --> 02:30:09,920
Speaker 2: the this podcast or watching the YouTube, then yeah, I

2956
02:30:09,920 --> 02:30:11,720
Speaker 2: don't care how much it hurts to talk, then it

2957
02:30:11,800 --> 02:30:12,280
Speaker 2: was worth it.

2958
02:30:12,400 --> 02:30:13,119
Speaker 1: All right, Thank.

2959
02:30:12,959 --> 02:30:14,480
Speaker 2: You, Thank you.

2960
02:30:14,720 --> 02:30:23,160
Speaker 1: A ride on on.

2961
02:30:26,520 --> 02:30:32,200
Speaker 8: Seal Grey shine like silver in the sun.

2962
02:30:36,080 --> 02:30:43,560
Speaker 11: Ride ride on alone, sweetheart.

2963
02:30:44,480 --> 02:30:51,120
Speaker 9: We're done beat this damn horse today. Taking her new drive.

2964
02:30:54,680 --> 02:31:00,320
Speaker 9: We're done beat this damn horse today, So take a

2965
02:31:00,440 --> 02:31:03,440
Speaker 9: new one and ride on

2966
02:31:11,360 --> 02:31:11,720
Speaker 5: MHM