1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline and the title of today's episode is 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: Designing Women and Caroline. I gotta be honest. When I 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: first started researching for Designing Women Women in interior Design, 6 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: I kind of just wanted you and I to talk 7 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: about Designing Women, the sitcom for half an hour. I 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: did too. This is a show that I grew up 9 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: watching with my mother, in addition to you know, all 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: the other shows like Murphy Brown and Golden Girls. Uh, 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: and of course Cagney and Lacy. Um. But yeah, no, 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: I I am in love with the sugar Baker Sisters. 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: Which is your favorite? Oh, Julia Julius sugar Baker. Now, 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: for listeners who might not be familiar with Designing Women, 15 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: let's give them a quick rundown of the show. And 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: don't worry. This isn't going to be an entire show 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: about the sitcom. But we have to indulge our childhood 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: sitcom loves from time to time. So one of the 19 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: reasons that I loved Designing Women when I was a 20 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: kid was because it is set in Atlanta, so everybody 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: had had a very wonderful accent. How Julius sugar Baker. 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: And there were two sugar Baker sisters, Julia who headed 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: up this interior design firm, and then what was her name, 24 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: Delta Birke Plater Susanne Susanne. How could I forget Susanne? 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,919 Speaker 1: And Susanne was a former beauty queen and she always 26 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: had something to say that was usually inappropriate. And Julie, 27 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: would you usually have to step in? Yeah? Well, no, 28 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: I loved, I love Without getting too much on a 29 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: tangent about just my love for the show itself, Julius 30 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: sugar Baker is fantastic for the way that she, at 31 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: least once a show goes off on some incredibly amazing rant, 32 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: standing up for the little guy. Yeah. For people who 33 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: watched Scandal, Julius sugar Baker delivers her monologues and the 34 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: same kind of machine guns staccato. His characters do very 35 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: dramatically on Scandal, which makes Scandal even more enjoyable for 36 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: me because it makes me think of Julia sugar Baker. 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: But personally, Caroline, I don't want to be controversial, but 38 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: Julie was not my faith. Charlne was my girl, Sweet sweet, 39 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: sweet shar Charlene always got me giggling. Um. So, anyway, 40 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: Designing Women is a hilarious sitcom and also has been 41 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: cited as a very feminist show for its time. I 42 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: think in its original time spot it ran right up 43 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: before Murphy Brown and people are like, oh, look at 44 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: look at all these working women and their strong shoulder pads. Yes, 45 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: and they're very feathered, hairsprayed hair, so much feathering. Um. 46 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: But we're going to talk about designing women. I r 47 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: l not on television today and I learned that the 48 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: development of the interior design industry, which is stereotypically very feminine, 49 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,119 Speaker 1: it is designing women. Um. But the way that it 50 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: was feminized and then professionalized it says a lot about 51 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: how we were grappling with gender roles, particularly at the 52 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: turn of the century and leading up to World War Two. Yeah, 53 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: it seems like for as for as often as we 54 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: have talked on the podcast about women not being sort 55 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: of welcome in the workforce for a long time, especially 56 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: if you were married and Tripoli, especially if you were 57 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: married with children into your design and at the time 58 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: decorating seemed like an okay and acceptable way for women 59 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: to not only work but earn a wage. Yeah, and 60 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: there was this idea that if you got into interior decorating, 61 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: as it was originally called, that you might not be 62 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: as interested in your marriage as you should be. So 63 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: there was this quote from Vogue in uh, someone once 64 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: said that a woman is either happily married or an 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: interior decorator. And there's still a little bit of that 66 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: stereotype lingering today, especially when we think of a decorator 67 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: versus a more serious interior designer, that perhaps these are 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: wealthier women who might be a little bit bored, and oh, well, 69 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: they're just of course they're gonna become decorators. And so, 70 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: of course, because it's us, we have to give you 71 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: the very colorful rundown of the history of where these 72 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,119 Speaker 1: decorators came from, how this profession sort of came about, 73 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: and of course where all those kind of nasty stereotypes 74 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 1: about both fickle women and gay men in the design 75 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: industry came from. And a lot of this information is 76 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: coming from this amazing and very fascinating paper by Peter 77 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: McNeil called Designing Women, Gender Sexuality in the Interior Decorator 78 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: from eighteen ninety to nineteen forty, and it's really great 79 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: the way that he touches on not only just the historical, 80 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 1: you know, black and white aspects of the design field, 81 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: but also really digs into some of the sexuality, gender 82 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: and femininity issues. Yeah, because the entire construct of an 83 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:33,239 Speaker 1: interior decorator is built on it being appropriate for women 84 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: because of how domesticity and those spaces where we live 85 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: were gender coded as feminine really starting in the late 86 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: nineteenth century in early twentieth century. So, for instance, in 87 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: we have the publication of the Decoration of Houses written 88 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: by Edith Wharton, Yes and Ogden Codman, and with this 89 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 1: text the figure of the capital l lady decorator begins 90 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: to emerge, and she's really cemented in the culture by 91 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: the time we get to the interwar period between World 92 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: War One and World War Two, when we're in this 93 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: cultural flux when socio economic independence really isn't exactly a 94 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: feminine trait, although of course that is in conflict with 95 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: the development of the so called new woman. So the 96 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: lady decorator is a safe space amid all of this 97 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: oh what do we do with women question? Well, not 98 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: to mention that the work itself of interior design is 99 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: downplayed a lot by describing it as a natural extension 100 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: of being part of the female nature. That, of course 101 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: we would want to decorate the house. We want to 102 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: arrange flowers and slitch fabric and wallpaper colors, things like that, 103 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: because that's just part of female intuition. Leave all of 104 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: that architecture and building two men with their rationality, and 105 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: on top of that gendered idea, there's also class that 106 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: plays on top of that, because, as McNeil points out 107 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: in his paper, this has been an historically overlooked industry 108 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: from an academic perspective because it was sort of cast 109 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: aside as a thing for again rich board ladies. Because 110 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: interior decoration, as it was called at the time, really 111 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: developed things to a combination of class disposal, income and commercialism. 112 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways, interior decoration was compared 113 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: to high fashion couturiers, where you outfit your home in 114 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: the same way that you might outfit your body. You 115 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: want all of the latest fashions. You wanted to look 116 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: good and make impressions on the people who come inside. 117 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: And McNeil says that it wasn't until Isabelle and Combs 118 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: A Woman's Touch that was published in that interior Decoration 119 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: really started to get some serious analysis and people started thinking, oh, 120 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: these women were actually making some significant impact in the 121 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: overall world of artcraft and design. It's kind of fascinating 122 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: that it took that long to get any serious academic look, 123 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: because again it goes along with the whole thing of 124 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: that work being downplayed and the field being almost invalidated 125 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: when it comes to women's participation. But uh, income rights 126 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: that women weren't just decorating, they were designing as an 127 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: outgrowth of the arts and crafts movement of the late 128 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, and sort of in the wake of this period, 129 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: women actually did publish quite a few books on the topic, 130 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: including that Edith Wharton Ogden Codman book we mentioned earlier. 131 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: And so this is sort of the first wave of 132 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: women actually going out and getting these jobs that are creative. 133 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: They are sort of artsy FARTZI interviewed as more socially 134 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: appropriate for women to have um. But that leads us 135 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: to the question of whether women's participation in a job 136 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: like this, where it is centered around the home and 137 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: artsy ARTSI stuff, whether that has been liberating in terms 138 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: of giving them jobs, letting them earn a wage, or 139 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: whether that's just continuing the cycle of reaffirming gender norms 140 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: and women belonging in the home. Yeah, So for some 141 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: quick historical highlights, obviously we you know, we we start 142 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: writing about this stuff at the turn of the century 143 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: and early twenty century decorators or designers were really intent 144 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: upon rejecting dark, heavy Victorian interiors. There really was a 145 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: lot of change a foot. So the nascent professionalization then 146 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: starts to breathe this tension between architects and so called designers, 147 00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: the masculine versus the feminine, design versus decoration, and and 148 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: this really starts to bubble up with Frank Alba Parsons 149 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: of the Parsons School of Design, who was instrumental in 150 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: actually formalizing interior design as a career, which is a 151 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: common theme that we've talked about a lot in terms 152 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: of industries such as teaching, where usually professionalization is shepherded 153 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: by men. So in the nineteen thirteen class Perspectives at 154 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: the school later known as Parsons, it declares interior decoration, 155 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: like architecture, has reached the dignity of a profession. And 156 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: in his nineteen thirteen book Interior Decoration, Parsons describes the 157 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: house as the externalized man. So some notable gendering going 158 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: on here. So meanwhile during this time, uh, the sort 159 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: of superstar interior designer of this period. LCD Wolf writes 160 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: in her seminal book The House in Good Taste, which, 161 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: let me tell you, you could really have a drinking 162 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: game to the amount of times that she writes the 163 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: word taste in the book called The House and Good Taste, 164 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: you can literally taste the house. You could, you could 165 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: taste amazing. Um yeah, it's like it's like a Willy Wonka. Yes, yeah, 166 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: And she writes in the book, in contrast to Parton's 167 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: attitude about the externalized man, I do wish to trace 168 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: briefly the development of the modern house the woman's house, 169 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: to show you that all that is intimate and charming 170 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: in the home as we know it has come through 171 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: the unmeasured influence of women. And speaking of lc Dwolf, 172 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: like you said, Caroline, she was a superstar. Architectural Digest 173 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: calls her America's first decorator, and despite the fact that 174 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: people in her day really wanted to write her off 175 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: as a frivolous actress turned decorator. She was involved in 176 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: suffrage and she also described her business as a model 177 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 1: for other women. She was incredibly successful, and so in 178 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: nineteen o five, she gets her first big break with 179 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: a commission to decorate New York's Colony Club, which was 180 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: New York City's first club exclusively for very exclusive women 181 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: and fun fact about her. She spread the word about 182 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: her decorating business with personalized business cards that were quote 183 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: embellished with her trademark wolf with nosegay crest. I looked 184 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: for a picture of this and I couldn't find one. 185 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. That's what Architectural Digest said, And I 186 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: want a wolf with nosegay crest so badly. Now you think, 187 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: do you think the wolf was holding the bouquet or 188 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: just like had like a reef of flowers around his head. 189 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: I like to think that he was just biting the 190 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: nosegay with his giant claws, not claws, teeth, teeth claws, 191 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: same difference. They're all sharp and in describing the Colony 192 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: Club's interior, Architectural Digest calls it casual. It has a 193 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: feminine style. There was an abundance of glazed chintz, which 194 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: apparently immediately led to d Wolf being referred to as 195 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: the Chintz Lady, which I don't think I would like 196 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: that nickname, but whatever. Um goes on to describe wicker 197 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: chairs clever vanity tables, I wonder what makes them clever? Uh, 198 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: and the first of her mini trellist rooms. And she 199 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: was such a hit with her design of this all 200 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: lady club that she immediately gets all of these other 201 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 1: commissions and jobs, and she sort of circulates around, uh, 202 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: all sorts of famous wealthy families. Yeah, and so in 203 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen she publishes The House and Good Taste, and 204 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: two years later she's commissioned to decorate portions of the 205 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: Henry Clay Frick House now turned art mansion, which was 206 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: probably the most significant commission of her career because Frick 207 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: was this super duper wealthy guy and he had all 208 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: of these amazing art pieces and she kind of had 209 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: to go back and forth with him and over times 210 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: because I mean, the Wolf, when you gave her a budget, 211 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: what would just like take the money and run and 212 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: buy all sorts of extravagant furnitures and fabrics. And he 213 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: got a little concern from time to time about how 214 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: much money she was spending, and she tried to to 215 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: let him let her decorate more of the house and 216 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: he was like, l cie, oh, come on. It kind 217 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: of just sounds like any stereotypical conversation between an interior 218 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: designer and a client. Ever, But I think that just 219 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: illustrates that this woman would go to the ends of 220 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: the earth to find the right chair or whatever. I mean, 221 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: she was serious about design, and really early in her 222 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: book she writes, I know of nothing more significant than 223 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: the awakening of men and women throughout our country to 224 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: the desire to improve their houses. Is okay, Well, I 225 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: mean I can think of some things that are more 226 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: significant than that, but no, that's good, like throw pillows, 227 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: all the tassels. Now, No, I mean she she very 228 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: much took it seriously. And the thing is like it 229 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: was okay, and it was expected for Elsie Dwolf's to 230 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: take this kind of stuff seriously because of all of 231 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: the gendering embedded in this. And this is something again 232 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: that Peter McNeil really breaks down in that paper we 233 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: started earlier, because I mean, when you look at the 234 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: development of interior decoration, it's not just oh well, it 235 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: makes sense because of domesticity and we expect that to 236 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: be a woman's place. It wasn't just that there was 237 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: also ready made fashion and commercialism that McNeil writes sexualized 238 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: the house as an extension of the female body that 239 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: women or are obliged to care for and dress up. 240 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: So you also around this time have the rise of 241 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: department stores that facilitated and in some ways democratized for 242 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: people who couldn't hire say an Elsie d Wolf to 243 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: come and do it for them, who facilitated this entire industry, 244 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: And so women then become both the consumers and the 245 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: objects of consumption. Yeah, and of course other critiques come 246 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: into this because along with the rise of ready made fashion, 247 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: so fashion is becoming cheaper and more accessible, but also 248 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: with the rise of the moneyed middle class, so not 249 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: only is stuff more accessible, but you have more money 250 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: to buy more stuff. Then you start getting these critiques 251 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: of feminized decoration, design and fashion, where your people are 252 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: just saying, well, women are just it's just part of 253 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: their mercurial, uh, fickle natures that they want to change 254 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: fashions all the time. And so even Leisure magazine said 255 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, like, hey, ladies, we've got this familiar feminine 256 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: urge to change things all the time, and so that 257 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: just sort of became part of the stereotype of how 258 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: women designers and consumers worked. Familiar feminine urge also to 259 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: me just sounds like a euphemism for menstruation or because 260 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: you are familiar feminine edge back ladies, buy some throw pillows, 261 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: I'll help and you see. All of this gendering, though, 262 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: reflected also within the arts and crafts movement and the 263 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: growing architectural industry at the time, where you have women's 264 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: intuitive designer and color schemes really positioned as female in 265 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: contrast to men's logic, rationality and neutral masculine color schemes. 266 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: We could go off on a tangent at this point 267 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: about the great masculine renunciation that effectively muted colors and 268 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: flamboyant styles out of uh male wardrobes at the time. Um, 269 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: but there was a publication on the magic of color 270 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: harmony in dress from n that said, the fascinating woman 271 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: is she who is clever enough to emphasize the charming 272 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: contrast between herself and man. And what better opportunity has 273 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: she then dressing and choice of color, So even color 274 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: itself and the enjoyment of color is coded as feminine. Yeah, 275 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: I remember was it on TLC or HDTV? There was 276 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: one of those home early home design shows where it 277 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: was entirely based around this like really soothing kindergarten teacher 278 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: type woman designer who would bring into your home like 279 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: a color wheel that was full of like natural things 280 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: like a red pepper or like bark from a tree, 281 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: and you would pick like, oh, what how do I 282 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: want my house to feel? And it was all about 283 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: feelings and colors. It's not like we have ever gotten 284 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: away from that ling and that idea that women and 285 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: color and color choices and how they feel that those 286 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: all go together. Yeah, I mean even when it comes 287 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: down to art. Apparently there was an idea that the 288 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: drawing was more male appropriate because it's it's literally linear 289 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: and more precise, whereas painting was more feminine because it's 290 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: more colorful and open to more abstraction. Yeah, and what 291 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: did they say? That same source talked about how like 292 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: it's more appropriate for a woman to sit there with 293 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: her watercolors when she could be helping someone paint a 294 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: wall in the actual house. Well, and we see this 295 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: gendering of these interior spaces very much still alive and 296 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: well today with things like man caves. And there was 297 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: also a Wall Street Journal article reporting on the men's 298 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: design site Trunk, and that's Trunk with no you only consonants, 299 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: and the reporter writes that Trunk is specifically targeting men 300 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: due to quote the off putting lee feminine world of 301 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: design magazines like El, Decor and most interior stores. Caroline 302 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: is shaking her head, ladies and gentlemen shaking her head. Well, okay, 303 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: for one thing, all of the stuff that's featured on 304 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: Trunk is stuff that I adore, like the styles and 305 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: and the decor and the fashion and everything, like, I 306 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: love it. It's I respond to that, and um I 307 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: also feel that it's kind of silly that, like in 308 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: a world where we have to have gendered lotion at 309 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: the drug store and shampoo for men um, that we 310 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: also have to have design websites from men. I I 311 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: get why someone who considers themselves to be masculine might 312 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: be off put by a website that is clearly dedicated 313 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: to I don't know, like pastels, Well, yeah, pastels are 314 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: florals or you know things like that. Like I get that, 315 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: but it's just the whole thing seems really absurd to me. Well, 316 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: it just seems like shouldn't we be past the point 317 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: of gendering pastels or gendering leather? Yeah, I mean I 318 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: think that plenty of people, whoever you are, respond to 319 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: light colors or dark colors, or like a fluffy down 320 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: couch versus a you know, a straight lined leather couch 321 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: or just you know, a good old fashioned bean bag chair. Caroline. Yeah, 322 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: but I love there was one quote in the story 323 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: about that, not to get off on attention, but I'm 324 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: going to um. There was also a line in that 325 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: article about Trunk where it talked about how like, oh god, 326 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: and like so many of the homes we visited, like 327 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: all these dudes had globes, and so it really seems like, 328 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: you know, men just want to decorate with things that 329 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: are like, you know, like rational and logical and that 330 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: can be used in real life. And I'm like, Okay, 331 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: what's old is new? We all use Google Maps, Okay, 332 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: nobody used as a freaking globe, so it's not logical 333 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: or functional. And then I just flipped the table over 334 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: and walk away. Though I do like to think of 335 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: in lieu of Google Maps, you just drive around with 336 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: like a globe and like one of those like car 337 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: seats for children, you have the globes trapped in UM. 338 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: But the thing is that we've been referring a lot 339 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: to interior decorators, which was also a very gendered choice 340 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: to call it decoration as opposed to design. But that 341 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,639 Speaker 1: would soon change because the title of this podcast is 342 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: designing women. People go to school for interior design, so 343 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about how that came to be 344 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. So 345 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: it's interesting to watch how things change in interior design 346 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: or decorating UM as the field becomes more professionalized, just 347 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: like as Kristen said, in other fields, whether that's teaching 348 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: or whether that's the coffee industry. There's a whole slew 349 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: of things that happened when things in a particular industry 350 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: start to get professionalized. People start forming professional groups and 351 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: organizations to encourage basically the shoving out of anyone they 352 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: perceived to be an amateur. Well. Notably, the very first 353 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: professional organization for interior designers was started by women, hence 354 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 1: its name, The Women Decorators Club of New York and 355 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: it was founded in nineteen fourteen. And then some male 356 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: decorators at the time got together and like, hey, we 357 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: need an organization too, so they formed the Society of 358 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: Interior Decorators. And then finally in one we have the 359 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: gender neutral American Institute of Decorators, which was really formed 360 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: to uplift the industry from depression era dul drums and 361 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: attract more respectability. Emphasized professional qualifications, and it was really 362 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: attracting and in particular for more well established firms rather 363 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: than say L. C. Dwolf types who made fabulous business 364 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: cards and we're working independently. And so then in the 365 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: nineteen forties and the post war period, as men are 366 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: returning from World War Two, that's when we see even 367 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: more professionalization of the industry, which leads, like always to 368 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: even more masculinization. There's this influx basically into the conversation, 369 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: into the industry of architects, and then we see the 370 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: rise of industrial designers. And during this period after the war, 371 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: there's really an emphasis on specialization, marketing of the profession, 372 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: and the development of professional standards. And so you've got 373 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: all of these men coming in and they're focused on 374 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: a lot of the time that commercial design, not so 375 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: much what drapes. You know, Mrs Smith wants in her home. 376 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: Mrs Smith, she is the toughest customer, demands always, Jane, 377 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: Gremy and Caroline. And don't get us wrong, we are 378 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: not against men getting jobs. We're all about some employed 379 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,239 Speaker 1: fellas out there. But as Pat Kirkham notes in her 380 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: book Women Designers in the USA nine to two thousand, 381 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: a lot of this came at the expense of them 382 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: sort of taking over the leadership, for instance, of the 383 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: American Institute of Decorators and pushing more female decorators to 384 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: the side. So in the nineteen fifties and afterwards you 385 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: really see women increasingly pursuing residential design. Stay in the houses, 386 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: ladies will take over the skyscrapers. And then with the 387 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: rise of interior design divisions in large architectural firms, men 388 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: usually held the top jobs there, so they're essentially building 389 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: a bit of a glass ceiling, although just beautifully designed ceiling. 390 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: Carolina is gorgeous. Yeah, And so this leads commercial design 391 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: to becoming really a boys club that women have to 392 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: fight extra hard to make their way through, and I remember, 393 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: so for the longest time I wanted to be an 394 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: interior designer. I don't know, I'm not exactly sure where 395 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: the idea came from. I want to say it was 396 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: just growing up watching a whole lot of TLC and 397 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: designing women and designing. You wanted to be Julian sugar Baker. 398 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: I wanted to be Julie, But I never saw them work. 399 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: They were either out being the supremes on stage if 400 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,439 Speaker 1: anybody remembers that episode um, or they were just in 401 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: the house talking. And so I think it was. I 402 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: think it was those early home design shows like Trading Spaces. 403 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: But when I actually did shadow an interior designer for 404 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: a day just to kind of see what she did, 405 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: she herself had a business running out of her home. Um, 406 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: and she sort of burst my bubble because my whole 407 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: dream was like, no, I will work on an individual 408 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: basis with like individual clients in my in my head, 409 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: in my dream job, and I will make their homes beautiful. 410 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: And she was like, Uh, you've got to go to 411 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 1: school for a long time. You've got to work really hard, 412 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: and then you kind of do have to come up 413 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: through the more commercial stuff before you can sort of 414 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: break out on your own and establish your own firm 415 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: to where you are being an lc dwolf and working 416 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: with those smaller clients probably unless you have very wealthy 417 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: and well connected friends who are down to let you 418 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: redo their pool house. Yeah, who trust you with their 419 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: credit card basically. But I was like, I don't want 420 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: to design an office, nor do I feel like I 421 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: would want a job that's not recession proof, because it 422 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: was during the recession. So I gave up that dream. 423 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 1: Now I have designed myself a beautiful disk space and 424 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: the beautiful podcast. You know, Caroline, you could always do 425 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: an interior design podcast, That's true. I'd be like, and 426 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: then I really like purple, but also blue. That's cool, 427 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: So maybe I'll stick with this one you call the 428 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: room of one zone sign Caroline. Um. But so going 429 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: back to before, I got off on a tangent sparked 430 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: by the idea of commercial design being a boys club 431 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: that I would not want to fight my way through personally, 432 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: just just me. It's during this time, after the war, 433 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: in the nine fifties and sixties that decorator, the term 434 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: decorator really becomes kind of an ugly term. Nobody wants 435 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: to be called a decorator anymore, because as things are 436 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: getting more professionalized, people were saying, oh, well, calling yourself 437 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: a decorator, that's that could be somebody who comes into 438 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: your house to paint or wallpaper your walls. But really 439 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: there was there was a little bit more to it 440 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: than just saying like, oh, a designer would be a 441 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: more accurate term. Well, these guys didn't want to be 442 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: called decorators period, because that was a lady's job. We 443 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: had the lady decorator established, you know, in the early 444 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: twentieth century. So I have a feeling there was um 445 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: ick factor with that, and also there was this concern 446 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: for keeping the more amateurish and intuition driven women out 447 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: of more lucrative areas of the field. And Kirkham writes 448 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: about how the feminine in quotes and domestic qualities that 449 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: had led this people in this industry to argue women's 450 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: particular suitability to interior design at the beginning of the 451 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: century were now ignored, as was women's experience as homemakers. 452 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: So decorator was out, interior designers was in. And Frank 453 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: Lloyd right by the way, once publicly sneered at an 454 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: a i D event about inferior desecrators. Yeah, apparently he 455 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: just went on and on about it until the woman 456 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: he specifically named, one specific female designer, believe it was 457 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: Dorothy Draper. Yeah, and she's not related to Don Draper 458 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: ha ha, and she actually it up to sort of 459 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: physically put a stop to his anti woman ran essentially 460 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: inferior desecrators. Yeah, that's like such an eighth grade. Yeah, 461 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: such an eighth grade burn. Um. So we're gonna take 462 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: a massive leap now, though, and look at the industry today, 463 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: because like it or not, Frankloyd, right, inferior detecrators make 464 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: about thirty billion dollars a year as an industry, and 465 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: it is still very much female dominated. An article over 466 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: at Interior design dot Net reports that women out number 467 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: men in the field around two to one. And that's 468 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: in stark contrast to those stats we were giving in 469 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: our podcast on women in Architecture a while back. Yeah, 470 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: and the reasons why it is so popular with women 471 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: today really might not be that different from why it 472 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: attracted so many women in the past. I mean, in 473 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: the past it had given so many women who were 474 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: sort of living off the beaten path anyway, whether they 475 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: were coming out of the arts and crafts movement, whether 476 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: they didn't really want to get married and they just 477 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: wanted to work. It sort of gave them a path 478 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: to earning a living and having a respectable job, essentially, 479 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: and so New York School of Interior Design professor and 480 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: author Judith Gura suggests that the popularity of this field 481 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: with women partially has to do with the fact that 482 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: the industry allows women to take time off to raise families, 483 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: and the barrier of entry is lower since licensing isn't 484 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: necessary as with architecture, so you're not necessarily in school 485 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: and working toward a license for as long as you 486 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: would be if you were going to be an architect. 487 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: And on the one hand, that's great, and on the 488 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: other hand too, that gendering still seems largely intact, at 489 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: least as reflected in a quote from designer Barbara Berry 490 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: speaking to the website Interior Design, who said, I've never 491 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: felt the glass ceiling. As a woman, I feel uniquely 492 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: suited for design center around the home. And in talking 493 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: about how there are few and far between female starchitects, 494 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: you know those all star architects. The list of Marquis. 495 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: Female interior designers is quote nearly endless interior design reports. 496 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: And this is something you can see reflected to over 497 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,239 Speaker 1: at El Decor that has a gallery upon gallery of 498 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: incredible female interior designers like Charlotte Moss, Holly Hunt, Muriel Brandolini, 499 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: Josie A. Tory, and Jill Stewart among some of its 500 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: female favorites. But when you start looking at this list 501 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: of names, and we started thinking, oh, okay, cool. This 502 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: is an industry that seems it was built up around 503 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: women and still remains pretty female friendly. But when you 504 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: look at these lists of all of these successful female 505 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: interior designers, it is great that this is an industry 506 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: that really has been built around women and will seems 507 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: very female friendly. But at the same time too, a 508 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: lot of the lists also make the industry seem pretty 509 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: not diverse. I mean, yeah, women, yea women, but is 510 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: it all just white women? Well? I think so much 511 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: of that goes back to class issues from the very beginning. 512 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: I mean, who was paying for interior decorators the new 513 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: white upper crust middle class and up. You know, people 514 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: who were oil tycoons, railroad tycoons, people like that, we're 515 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: paying for designers, and the people they were seeking out 516 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: because it was a female dominated field tended to be women, 517 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: and because of just the way that class structures were 518 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: sub those women tended to be white. They weren't these 519 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: wealthy oil barons weren't out searching for women of color 520 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: to come into their homes and decorate because those jobs 521 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: simply weren't open and available to women of color. Well, 522 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: and I think that phrase right there, come into their 523 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: homes says a lot too, because I have a feeling that, 524 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: from what we know about racism, that this idea of 525 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: someone of color coming into your home, into your private space, 526 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: would be reboting for a very long time. And this 527 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: is a sentiment that's echoed by renowned designer Sheila Bridges, 528 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: who is speaking to the Root about it. She says 529 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: design has always been a pretty elitist profession, so they've 530 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: definitely been challenges along the way, and many of them 531 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: have had to do with being black, And she references 532 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: the complexion of the industry, which she says remains basically 533 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: a hurdle for a lot of young black designers. But 534 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: she thinks that things like you know what, I'm obsessed 535 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: with HDTV basically shows and the Internet and designer collaborations 536 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: that are making design more accessible to a whole wide 537 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: swath of people are helping kind of open young people 538 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: bo's eyes to career possibilities or even just hobby possibilities, 539 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: that that there's more out there for them to do. Yeah, 540 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: and and she goes on to echo exactly what we 541 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 1: were talking about just a moment ago, about how African 542 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: Americans haven't had what she calls a long history of 543 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: being professional designers, mainly because we only just recently gained 544 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: the luxury of choosing it as a career. And it 545 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 1: was interesting in this interview that she was doing with 546 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: the Route Uh, the interviewer mentioned that they had talked 547 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: to other prominent black interior designers before and asked them 548 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: the same question of has race ever been a barrier 549 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: for you in your industry? And they all just declined 550 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 1: to even answer the question. It seems like it's still diversity, 551 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: is still something that is swept under the very expensive carpet. Yeah, 552 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you know there might be an effort 553 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: there not to other yourself basically, if you're already feeling 554 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: like such an outlier in the industry, that you've chosen, Um, 555 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: you might not want to focus too much on what 556 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: sets you apart, but more about what makes you such 557 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: a standout talent. Yeah, and and and she was very encouraging. 558 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: Bridges was for young black students interested in designed to 559 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: go for it and network their way in and but 560 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: but still being cognizant that, yeah, there probably are going 561 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: to be some extra hurdles along the way. And I 562 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: gotta tell you, Caroline, I was also really surprised that 563 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: this was one of the only even blog post independent 564 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: blog posts I could find even addressing this issue of 565 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 1: diversity ethnic diversity within the interior design field. And perhaps 566 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: I just wasn't looking in the right places, But I 567 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: almost wonder if it's if it is even a concern. Well, 568 00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: I think again, so much of that goes back to 569 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: a clientele and what names they're familiar with, especially from 570 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: their other fellow incredibly wealthy friends, and that if somebody 571 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: uses one designer, they might pass that name along. And 572 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of like maybe the perpetuation of 573 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: the same type of designer or literally the same designer, 574 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: And there hasn't been as much room for for newbies, 575 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 1: people with different perspectives to come up through the ranks. 576 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: But then again, it's not like there's black design versus 577 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: white design. Well yeah, and that was something that Sheila 578 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: Bridges definitively said no to where the Route asked, well, 579 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, is there a particular you know, black design 580 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 1: aesthetic and she was like, no, no, good design is 581 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: good design. Let's not make this like a race thing 582 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: at all. Um. Well, and I also though, wish that 583 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: we could have found some statistics too, comparing diversity within 584 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: residential design versus industrial design, because I wonder if the image, 585 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: if the picture would change at all when we're looking 586 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: more at commercial properties, businesses, public spaces versus private spaces. Um. 587 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: But speaking of private spaces, one rather surprising area of 588 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:18,479 Speaker 1: diversity among early women interior designers that we've been talking about, 589 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: particularly the first half of this episode is when it 590 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: comes to sexual orientation. I assume going into this that 591 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: this was going to be you know, straight, white, wealthier women, 592 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 1: but it turns out that what Peter McNeill terms homeless 593 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: sociality was very common among the earliest interior decorators. Women 594 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: like Elsie d Wolf who was Boston married to Bessie Marbury. 595 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: They had one of the first open quote unquote Boston marriages, 596 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: which was essentially like, let's not call them lesbians in 597 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 1: New York society. But it's interesting that a sort of 598 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: lesbian designer stereotype never developed. Instead, we do still have 599 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: of the rich, straight white woman stereotype paired with the 600 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: very effeminine gay man stereotype. And I mean people were 601 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: writing even back in the thirties, there was one thing 602 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: we saw where, uh, some man, some man was writing 603 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: about fears of both fickle women and gay men ruining 604 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: what he called real art, that we have to take 605 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: it back from them. Basically, yeah, I mean, the gay 606 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: male interior decorator stereotype emerged really in tandem with the 607 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 1: lady decorator stereotypes because all of those kinds of things 608 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: of interest in home decor and domestic spaces and the 609 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: use of vibrant color was so deeply coded as feminine 610 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: that any interest in those kinds of things and in 611 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: commercialism and consumption was also coded feminine. So if you 612 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,959 Speaker 1: were a guy who had a knack for and really 613 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,240 Speaker 1: enjoy these kinds of things, well you were unquote effeminate man, 614 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 1: or you might have even been labeled a pansy, and 615 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: there was a lot of mistrust of you, particularly starting 616 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: in the interwar years. He was seen as sort of 617 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 1: the counterpoint to the frivolous flapper. You have the effeminate 618 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: man who is carrying all the shopping bags next to her. Yeah, 619 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: but it's funny because just like how high heels originated 620 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: as a man thing, so did interest in beautifying your home. 621 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 1: I mean, back in the eighteen hundreds, I mean, if 622 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: you were a wealthy man, you wanted to demonstrate your wealth, 623 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: and so you wanted to pick the most luxurious fabrics 624 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,439 Speaker 1: and finishes for your home sort of demonstrate that. And 625 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: that sort of has all gone away to the point 626 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: where people write about, oh, you know, stereotypical husband just 627 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: being a guest in his wife's home because she's the 628 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: one who takes over all the decorating in the shopping well. 629 00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: And nonetheless, though even with all of that stigmatizing a men, 630 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: gay or not, who were interested in decorating and designing, nonetheless, 631 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: within the industry, they were still more broadly respected than 632 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 1: icons like the Wolf and Dorothy Draper. There was still 633 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,240 Speaker 1: more room and acceptance for gay men like Billy Baldwin 634 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: than there were for an LCD wolf, not being in 635 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: the industry at all but watching a whole lot of 636 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: home and Garden television. I want to say that attitude 637 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,399 Speaker 1: still persists somewhat today. I mean, if you look at 638 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: the Nate burgass Is of the world, who is super 639 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: accessible thanks to his stint on Oprah and having a 640 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,640 Speaker 1: target line, and then somebody like vern Yip, who was 641 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 1: who was a total design superstar um and has lived 642 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. I don't know if he still does. Wasn't 643 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: he on Trading Spaces? Yes, he was loved Trading Spaces, 644 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: I know. And now he's like he's always in an 645 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: HDTV magazine also, which I'm always excited about. But it 646 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,919 Speaker 1: seems like we just kind of look to the gay 647 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: male designer in our lives, whether that's in the pages 648 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: of a magazine or in real life, to to give 649 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 1: us the true and correct, fashionable design advice as opposed 650 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: to trusting a lady designer. Well, because according to stereotype, 651 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: he would offer us the best of both worlds. He has, 652 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, the rationality of having the male brain, but 653 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: also the more a feminine design intuition to be able 654 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: to execute a well appointed room. So it's this episode 655 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: to me is just one oh one in how entrenched 656 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: gender norms have become in a very short amount of time. 657 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: It took about a century for us to just be like, oh, 658 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: you like color, Okay, you're either gay or you're a woman. 659 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: You like flowers? Gay or a woman? Like what? Yeah, 660 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 1: there's no room for a straight man to enjoy color, 661 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,800 Speaker 1: flowers or decorating. Well, and that's what I wanted to 662 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: find too. Uh. In terms of adversity within the industry, 663 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: I know that there are straight male interior designers out there, 664 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: but I wonder if they are sort of the odd 665 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: men out um, So really relying on listeners for this one. 666 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: Curious to know what the status of these kinds of 667 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: identity politics are within interior design or maybe does it 668 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: just not matter? Are you just more collectively interested in 669 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: the design itself. Let us know mom Stuff at how 670 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address. You can 671 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook, 672 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with you. Well, 673 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: I've got a Facebook message here from Sophie and she 674 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: is responding to our podcast on social Justice Warriors, and 675 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: she writes, Hi, I just want to thank you for 676 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: your episode about social Justice Warriors, specifically Tumbler users. I 677 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,720 Speaker 1: feel any platform that is mostly used by young people 678 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: gets miscredited and questioned, So I get dang proud when 679 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,399 Speaker 1: I see teenagers using trigger warnings or hashtagging food during 680 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: rabadon being so respectful to each other. I'm pretty sure 681 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,279 Speaker 1: they didn't learn that from parents or in school. They 682 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: teach each other and it's brilliant. Tumbler is an awesome 683 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,399 Speaker 1: place because people of all genders, sexualities, colors, and nationalities 684 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: are allowed a voice. It allows for beautiful things like 685 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,800 Speaker 1: Blackout and Transvisibility Day to fill my feed and remind 686 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 1: me that my reality is not the only one. Thumbs 687 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: up to the podcast and police excuse grammar or spelling. 688 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm Swedish, so thank you, Sophy, and your spelling and 689 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 1: grammar was fantastic. I have a Facebook message here from Crystal. 690 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: She says, Hi, I just started listening and love the series. Well, hello, 691 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,760 Speaker 1: thank you, She says, I just listened to your hunting 692 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: podcast and it got me thinking about my last trip 693 00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: that I want to share with you. My boyfriend and 694 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: I were out in the field and twin degree wendy 695 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: stormy weather for about eight hours looking for geese. After 696 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: freezing my bum off whenever I had to pee and 697 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,799 Speaker 1: struggling to keep my clothes dry, I started looking up 698 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: female urination devices or fu D. I mean, how amazing 699 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: not having to drop my pants in cold weather. The 700 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: interesting part, though, is that when I mentioned it to 701 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,839 Speaker 1: my boyfriend, he responded that it was weird and I 702 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: was quote not invited to future trips if I didn't 703 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 1: pee like a real country girl. I haven't had a 704 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: chance to test this, but I now have every intention 705 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: of busting out an fu D next time we head out. Anyways, 706 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: this gotta be wondering whether there's been a podcast on 707 00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: these devices and the privilege of peeing while standing. Well, yes, indeed, 708 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: we do have a potty politics episode that would definitely 709 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: interest you, Crystal. Yeah, and I gotta say, Caroline for 710 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: a summer music festival season and all that I want 711 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: to fud. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sitting down 712 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,319 Speaker 1: on Nope, I'm not gonna do it. If you have 713 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: any female urination device related thoughts or things about interior 714 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,439 Speaker 1: design you would like to let us know. Mom stubb 715 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: at how stubworks dot com is our email address and 716 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 717 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this 718 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,920 Speaker 1: one with all of our sources so you can follow along. 719 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot 720 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 721 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: Does it how stuff works dot com