WEBVTT - #560 Jason Flom with Vanessa Gathers 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.800 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.000 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.000 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.560 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:17.160 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:18.200 I hadn't done anything wrong. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.079 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.680 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:26.560 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.440 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.159 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:34.880 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:41.280 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.800 in that moment, unchecked authority. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.280 Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.360 on TV, because it may just be a dirty da 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.280 that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:12.560 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.479 Jason Flamm. Today, I have two very special guests, and 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.600 you'll learn more about that surely, but first I'm going 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.080 to introduce them. Vanessa Gathers is our star today. 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.040 Just months after the Crown Heights riots back in nineteen 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.920 ninety one, Gathers was called in for questioning for robbery 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.720 and the beating of an elderly man inside of his 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:36.839 Crown Heights apartment. The victim fell into a coma then died. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:42.120 The case was classified a homicide. That's when controversial former 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:47.600 NYPD detective Lewis Scarcella took over the case. Five years later, 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:52.720 Scarcella reinterviewed Gathers and says she made a full confession. 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.960 Gathers was convicted on that confession alone. The former detective 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.440 is in the middle of several cases where people went 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:01.520 to prison for crimes they did not commit. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:02.360 D A. 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:07.520 Thompson and his team have already exonerated seventeen men. Gathers 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.760 is the eighteenth, the first woman. Right now, the DA's 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.160 office is looking into at least one hundred other cases. 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:17.440 Fifty eight year old Vanessa Gatherers, who will no longer 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.000 be labeled a convicted felon after ten years in prison 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:25.280 for manslaughter, Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson is expected to 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:26.480 vacate her conviction. 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:28.960 We're going to take a step to not only vacate 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.239 misgatherers conviction, but to give her her good name back. 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.400 Vanessa, Welcome to the show. Thank you and her badass 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:41.760 attorney is here as well, Lisa Cahill. Welcome to Ronful Conviction. 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:42.840 Happy to be here. 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:48.320 So, Vanessa, let's go back to when life was simpler, right, 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:54.639 because before this crazy incident happened, you were living basically 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:58.440 a normal life like anyone else. Right. Yes, were you 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.320 in a lot of trouble with the law as reason 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.639 that they would have ever suspected you of being involved 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.080 in a cold blooded murder, a terrible beating death. 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:07.520 Not at all? 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:09.799 What were you doing? What was your life like? Where'd 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:10.320 you grow up? 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:15.200 I grew up in Jersey City, in North Carolina, and 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.360 then I moved to New York in seventy nine and 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.040 I started working. I was working in Manhattan doing what 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.359 I worked for, Gristities. I worked for a lawyer when 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.400 I first arrived to New York City, So. 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.280 Just finding your way doing different jobs whatever. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.960 I stayed with Gristiitis for quite some time. 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.600 The original job I had was working for a lawyer, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.160 a criminal lawyer, and I was just doing statements of 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:47.040 fouling and typing up notes. Things got slow, so later 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.720 on I found a job with Christiiti's. He let me 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:52.400 stay until I found something better. 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.760 So you came to New York, like most people do, 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.160 I guess, to pursue your dreams and find your way. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.080 And you were finding your way, things were going okay. 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:02.960 Do you have a family when this came down? 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.320 Yes, my family was in Jersey. I had a daughter. 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:10.680 This case stems out of a murder that happened in 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:12.520 nineteen ninety one. And there's a lot of things that 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.680 are unusual about your case. But there are also a 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.240 lot of things that we see that are common in 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.200 wrongful convictions, including a false confession, which I think everyone 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:24.480 is fascinated by it and terrified of. I know, I am. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.480 But in your case, this was a murder of a 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.400 guy named Michael Shaw, I think right, Yes, And he 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.400 was a guy who was murdered in nineteen ninety one. 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:36.839 He was beaten to death by three women. Again, pretty 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:38.960 unusual circumstance. And the reason we know he was beaten 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:40.680 to death by three women is because he lived long 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.360 enough to tell the tale. He died in the hospital. Yes, 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:49.039 so originally you were living in the area. Did you 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:50.000 know about the crime? 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.120 No, not at the time. No, I did not. I 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.240 found out all that information later on. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.720 And how did you first become aware that this. Did 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:58.560 you know the victim? 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:01.480 I didn't know him, per se. 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:04.240 I just knew that he was like a picture post 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.880 man that stayed in the window. He set by the 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:08.839 window all the time because I used to walk my 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:09.839 dog around the block. 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.400 But I didn't know his name. I didn't know him. 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.479 From time to time he would actually to come over 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.120 to the window and would I get him a pack 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.920 of cigarettes, which I did because I walked around the 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:22.719 block and I walked my dog back and I just 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:23.599 passed it to him. 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:24.000 Through the window. 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.039 So he lived on the first floor, Yes, And so 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.400 when he was murdered, the word must have gotten around 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.560 the neighborhood. And you first heard about it from a detective, 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.280 is that right? Yes? And how'd that come about? Because 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.680 it's weird because you weren't arrested until many years later 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.760 when the case was cold. And then you actually drew 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.839 a terrible straw or bad break what every gonna call it, 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:50.080 because you got in the crosshairs of a guy who 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.960 we know now is one of the worst detectives in 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.120 the history of this country in terms of the damage 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:00.760 that he did to an entire burrow. Really, he wrecked 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.359 havoc on so many people, in so many cases, and 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.600 a whole system. So how did it come about that 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.160 you first encountered detectives, Garcella. 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.679 I believe I was walking my dog at the time, 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:17.320 and I mean the detective Scuss Selling his partner Shamil 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.680 approached me and asked me about the incident, and I said, 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.120 I didn't know. Actually I didn't even know the man's name. 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.280 I didn't know who he was. I just know him 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.279 by sight, you know, from sitting in the window. That's 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.720 all I knew about this individual. But then later on 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:38.160 after that incident, I didn't see the man anymore. After 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.080 a while, you know, I would still walk my dog, 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.200 but the man was not there in the window anymore. 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:47.120 So they approached you on the street, yes, And were 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.360 they friendly? Were they hostel? Did they put you in copsle? 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:49.880 How did this whole? 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.720 They were friendly. They just asked me some questions. 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:57.320 They also asked me about the same thing that I 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.320 know the man, and I told him I didn't know 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.800 who they were talking about at first. And then when 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.560 they was telling me that he lived there, and I said, oh, yeah, 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.200 I remember seeing the man in the window, but I 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:09.560 didn't know him per se. 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:11.080 Did they tell you that he had been murdered. 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.880 No, they didn't state that. They just said something happened. 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:16.840 It was an incident with this guy. They was trying 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.440 to find out what happened. 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:23.840 And let's turn to you. So what was going on there? 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.880 First of all, Vanessa was sort of a person that 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.680 you would not really think would be involved in anything 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.040 like this. I mean, and meeting her now, she's such 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.160 a gentle soul. The idea that she would be involved 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.720 in a beating death seems so far fetched. 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.320 I certainly agree with that. But one of the big 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:46.480 mysteries always in the case was this business about Scarcella 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:51.360 stopping Vanessa because she was a woman walking a white dog. 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:56.360 Let me back up, right after mister Shaw was assaulted, 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.360 he didn't die till months later, so it didn't become 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:06.360 a homicide investigation for about four months time. So immediately 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:12.240 after the assault, it's basically a robbery investigation. But detectives 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:17.680 are working the robbery and the beating they're investigating somewhat. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:23.280 And those detectives interviewed the super in mister Shaw's building 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:29.480 twice and memorialized that interview, and the super never said 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:34.640 anything about Vanessa Gathers. He never described Vanessa Gathers. He 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.720 never said, oh, there's a woman with a white dog 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.240 in the neighborhood who you should talk to. None of 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:47.080 that is reflected in those interview notes. But Scarcella consistently 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:52.959 testified that the reason he stopped Vanessa was because after 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.959 mister Shaw died, it did become a homicide investigation, obviously, 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.760 and Scarcella was assigned the case. He testified that one 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.600 of the first things he did was go interview the super. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.360 He claimed that the Super said one of the women 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.319 who used to talk to Shaw and was friendly with 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:20.600 Shaw was a woman in the neighborhood with a white dog. Now, suspiciously, 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:27.720 Scarcella never memorialized that interview with the super, as you're 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.360 supposed to do, and as two prior detectives had done 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.560 when they interviewed the super. We always thought it was 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:39.679 suspicious that there was never any memorialization of that. Why 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:44.800 he in fact stopped Vanessa. I really don't know. I mean, 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.920 I suppose it's conceivable the super said that, but the 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.439 Super was dead by the time of trial, so no 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:53.520 one really knows. 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.360 Well, we do know that the victim said that it 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.080 was three women. So the one thing you had in 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.360 common with the perpetrate it was that you were a woman, right, 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.840 But there's a lot of women, so just and we 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:09.439 know now that Scarcella didn't really care whether you were 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.280 the perpetrator or not. He just cared about getting convictions. 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.000 And he was very good at it actually, I mean 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:22.760 in a very nefarious and terrible way. He was famous 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.400 actually for solving cases, and that's probably what he was after. 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.360 So he saw you, figured he would stop and talk 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:32.760 to you, and maybe he was bored, had nothing else 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.520 to do. But it came and went right, and then 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:37.880 you went back to your life, and you know, eventually 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.480 you found out that mister Shaw had died, I'm sure, 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.160 and life went on. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.080 Well that's basically what happened. Well, it was ninety two 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.840 actually when he came around, I think April or May 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.199 or something of nineteen ninety two when he came the 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.720 initial visit with him, and then the next time I 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.640 saw him was nineteen ninety seven. He's knocking on my door. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.200 He came to your home. Yes, and what transpired next, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:05.959 I mean, you had no reason to think that you 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.400 would ever be a suspect in anything like this. No, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.560 and probably the memory of the whole thing had faded 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.120 to some extent, right because it was one coming. 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.920 I had already forgotten about him and the questioning at 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:17.440 that time. 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.400 I mean, I'm stayed in the same building. I didn't move. 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:22.840 If I had anything to hide, I think I would 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.240 have left. I mean, a lot of people in the 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.840 neighborhood moved out, but I was still there. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.280 So there was no reason for. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.520 Me to try and run, will do anything negative regard 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.120 in this manner, because I know I had no involvement 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:37.520 in it. 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:42.920 One of our hypotheses was that Vanessa was literally the 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:47.320 only one who had any connection to Shaw who was 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.920 actually still available to Scarcella, still living in the same building. 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.760 So by now it had turned into a homicide investigation. 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.320 Scarcella had decided that he was going to solve a 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.360 cold case, or maybe not, probably many of them. Right. 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.760 So when he did come see you six years after 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.880 the murder, what happened? What was his approach this time? 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.000 Was he friendly? Was he hostile to put you in coffs? 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:14.319 He was very friendly. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:20.080 I actually was never in Coffs at that time we spoke. 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.160 He asked me, saying questions. He asked me, should I 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.960 come to the precinct. You know, I oblige and I 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.600 went there. He showed me some muck shots and stuff. 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.439 He asked me about some of the women in the neighborhood. 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:34.400 Did I know in them? It's a couple that I 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.920 did see that had I guess criminal records. 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:39.960 And that was basically it. 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.760 He never stated to me that I was a suspect 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.280 or anything. I had no knowledge of that up until 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.319 the time that we did. After the polygraph and all 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.320 of that other information that were transpire. He had my history. 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.640 I told him where I was working. You know, he 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:57.559 knew where I lived. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.800 I didn't have anything to hide from this spoof. I 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:02.559 cooperated the best that I could. 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.560 I was working at the Brooklyn Family Court and he 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:09.959 picked me up that morning. He came to my job 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.200 and said he wanted me to come take a polygrab chest. 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:17.040 I went with him and everything. I had nothing to die. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.520 So after that, we stayed at the Priests and all 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.920 of these other things transpired, and he kept stating to 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.400 me that he was going to take me home. It 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.000 got late into the evening before I left the Priests, 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.520 and it was night. It was night when I did 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.200 leave there, and he kept saying that my companion that 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:37.400 he would contact him. 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.719 He never did. He just continued to lie, Lie, Lie. 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:43.960 He was frightening. 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.800 He took his jacket off, he had his gun exposed, 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.160 and he kept on threatening me, saying I was dere 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.559 I was there. I kept telling him no, I wasn't. 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:54.920 And it just went back and forth like that for 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:56.000 quite some time. 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.640 So he went sort of progressively from friendly to you'd 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.640 pick you up and you probably were like most people. 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:05.400 I mean, you were law abiding citizen. It wasn't like 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:06.800 you had a long rap sheet, right. 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.040 I didn't have no knowledge of the law, so he 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.600 and I think he really knew that. So he knew 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:15.280 because I don't remember him randomizing me or anything. 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:16.400 I don't remember all of that. 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:18.880 As far as getting a lawyer, I didn't know I 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.440 needed one because I didn't know I was. I was 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.600 the person that was chlose Toh had committed this crime. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:31.000 Right and Lisa, That's something that always bothers me is 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:35.640 that people like Vanessa who are innocent are very likely 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.880 to waive their Miranda rights and speak freely and not 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.080 request a lawyer. And if you're listening to the show. Now, 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.400 I'm going to encourage you. If you do get picked up, 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:51.800 don't assume anything, right, just request a lawyer, and other 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.760 than that, don't say anything other than your name, your address, 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.440 and that's basically it, right, And once you ask for 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.000 a lawyer, they're not allowed to ask you more questions. 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:01.600 That's right, That's right. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.520 I mean, they may do it anyway, but they'll be 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.400 breaking the law. Yeah, I mean, it is a tragic 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.040 and cruel irony that people like Vanessa who go in 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.800 wanting to help right and wanting to be cooperative and 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:17.120 good citizens and help the police, end up often really 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.760 on the terribly wrong end of the stick because of 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.080 the fact that they just don't know and they get 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.280 taken advantage of, which is exactly what happened here. 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:25.880 That's right. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.680 And one of the issues that we identified with the polygraph, 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.880 which was basically how Scarcela kicked off that morning. With 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:39.800 the polygraph, a polygrapher is supposed to sit down alone 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:45.080 with this subject and basically explain to the subject why 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.960 they're there this morning, and for example, to say, do 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.240 you know why you're here? You were here because you're 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:56.840 suspected of involvement in this incident, and that's what I 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.680 want to talk to you about today. And in fact, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:05.000 this particular polygraph never went through that exercise with Vanessa, 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.040 and she didn't know any better. Someone would say, well, 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.600 what do you think when someone's polygraphing you? But Vanessa 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.720 had had no prior experience with us. She was just 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.040 trying to do what they asked her to do. 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.160 And again, if you don't have anything to hide, and 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:21.840 if you are telling the truth, you'd think, well, why 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.320 shouldn't I take a polygraph? But not such a great idea. Well, 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:26.920 then we get to the part that gives me a 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.480 stomach ache. Is this whole process that takes place in 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.760 the interrogation room when someone in this case Garcela, but 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.320 it happens all over the country when a detective is 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:44.040 determined to get a confession, and they're not necessarily determined 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.800 to get the truth. In your case, they had no 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.520 reason to believe that you had any involvement, and yet 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:54.640 they approached you and interrogated you as if they basically 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.920 had everything in the world, every reason in the world 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.560 to suspect that you were the actual killer. Ultimately, you 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:03.600 confess to this crime. You didn't commit. And that's the 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.440 number one thing, Vanessa. When I talked to people who 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.600 aren't familiar with these issues, everybody says, I would never confess. 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.080 They couldn't get me to do it. That's crazy. I'm 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.280 too strong, I'm tough. I would never confit, that's you know. 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.600 And I'm like, well, let me tell you something. So 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.120 how did they get you? I mean, you're an intelligent woman, 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.840 you're a law abiding person. You would know enough to 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.000 know that that's a disaster, right, But you did it? 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:29.080 Yes, I did. 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.800 You are in a tiny room with these two police 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.679 detectives and you don't even know your rights. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:37.639 I didn't know. I was terrified. 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:42.479 And then the badgering started and the jagger came off, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.119 like I said, expose it, and he started threatening me 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.760 and leaning over her and you know, making all of 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.399 these accusations and stuff. And I continually told him that 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.760 I did not commit this crime. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:57.480 I was not there. And when he wrote. 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.119 The statement, I told him we were going back and 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:02.400 for as he's trying to tell me to state this. 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:04.520 And state that this must have been confusing. 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.679 It was because I'm like, I'm not understanding what is 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.800 going on as far as what he's writing on paper. 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.159 He tried to get me to write that statement and 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.240 I said, I'm not writing anything because I don't know 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:16.760 what happened. 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:18.800 This is part of the process, right, And it's the 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.560 crazy thing in this country that police are allowed to lie. 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:24.720 They can say they have a satellite image of you 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.240 committing the crime. They can say that they found your fingerprints, 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.320 they can say that they have witnesses. They can say 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:32.560 almost anything they want. What they can't say is they 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.919 can't threaten you with say you're going to get the 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.080 death penalty if you're not. There's certain things they can't 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.720 do like that. But as far as the facts surrounding 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.560 the case, they can lie all they want, which I 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.600 think is crazy and't It's not that way in most 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:45.439 other Western European countries are well, Jason. 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.320 The reason they do that is to put the subject 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:54.320 in a helpless feeling situation so then they can get 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:56.400 them to turn and do what they want to do. 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.040 They make you feel helpless and then they extend and 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.119 olive branch. Just sign this and I'll take you home. 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.240 Just help me out here, I'll get you out of here. 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:11.119 But the first thing is making the subject feel helpless, 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.480 and they do that with these false sevenence ploys. 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.080 So which lies did they tell you? 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.040 Well, he told me that he had fingerprints, Yeah, eyewitnesses. 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.760 He has proof that I was in the house. And 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.199 I kept telling him, no, that's not true. And to me, 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.040 it's like now getting confused because I'm saying, there's no 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.280 way possible that this could be. But you know, he 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.480 continued to tell me different stories and different things that well, 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:40.920 at that point he said, you might be going to jail. 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.480 These are the things that would happen to you once 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:44.040 you get there. 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.119 You need to sign this paper that he wrote, and 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:51.000 he said, I'll take you home. So I'm constantly like, 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:53.000 I don't know what to do. Now I'm here by 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:57.240 myself in his little room and I'm crying, I'm set, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.560 I'm hysterical. And he kept stated to me, I'm going 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.199 to let you call home. I said, I want to 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:05.520 call home. I felt that if I called my friend 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:07.200 maybe he would give me some information. 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:08.000 What should I do? 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.840 He denied my phone calls because I constantly told him 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.040 I would like to call home. He said, well, when 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.280 we finished, you could call home. I'll call I'll have 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.040 his partner call and let him know where I'm at, 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.000 I'm saying, because at this point of the day, I 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:24.000 should be home. 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:25.399 Which I wasn't. 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.960 So now my companion had no idea where I was 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.560 or what happened to me at all. 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.720 Yeah, so all of this just adds to the stress 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.320 and confusion and terror. It's really terror, right that you're 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.040 experiencing at this point because you don't know what these 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.920 guys are capable of, and you know there's nobody but you, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:49.479 and you're overmatched. You are really helpless. I mean, they 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.119 won't let you in many cases, they won't give you 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.760 any food, any water. You're just going to sit there 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:56.239 and they go in and they go out, and they 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:00.199 have this all. It's a whole protocol is designed to 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:02.480 do exactly what it did, which is to get you 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.800 to be willing to do basically anything and confess to anything. Right. 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.000 What's crazy on top of all the rest of this 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:16.760 is that they were not only committing an act of evil, right, 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.280 which is knowingly extracted a confession from a person that 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:25.520 they had every indication was innocent of the crime, but 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.280 also they were sloppy. And why I say that is 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:33.080