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Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't done anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,

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Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one

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Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected

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Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the

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Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

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Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.

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Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them

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Speaker 2: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da

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Speaker 2: that is trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today, I have two very special guests, and

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Speaker 4: you'll learn more about that surely, but first I'm going

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Speaker 4: to introduce them. Vanessa Gathers is our star today.

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Speaker 3: Just months after the Crown Heights riots back in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety one, Gathers was called in for questioning for robbery

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Speaker 3: and the beating of an elderly man inside of his

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Speaker 3: Crown Heights apartment. The victim fell into a coma then died.

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Speaker 3: The case was classified a homicide. That's when controversial former

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Speaker 3: NYPD detective Lewis Scarcella took over the case. Five years later,

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Speaker 3: Scarcella reinterviewed Gathers and says she made a full confession.

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Speaker 3: Gathers was convicted on that confession alone. The former detective

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Speaker 3: is in the middle of several cases where people went

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Speaker 3: to prison for crimes they did not commit.

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Speaker 5: D A.

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Speaker 3: Thompson and his team have already exonerated seventeen men. Gathers

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Speaker 3: is the eighteenth, the first woman. Right now, the DA's

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Speaker 3: office is looking into at least one hundred other cases.

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Speaker 3: Fifty eight year old Vanessa Gatherers, who will no longer

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Speaker 3: be labeled a convicted felon after ten years in prison

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Speaker 3: for manslaughter, Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson is expected to

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Speaker 3: vacate her conviction.

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Speaker 6: We're going to take a step to not only vacate

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Speaker 6: misgatherers conviction, but to give her her good name back.

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Speaker 4: Vanessa, Welcome to the show. Thank you and her badass

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Speaker 4: attorney is here as well, Lisa Cahill. Welcome to Ronful Conviction.

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Speaker 5: Happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: So, Vanessa, let's go back to when life was simpler, right,

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Speaker 4: because before this crazy incident happened, you were living basically

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Speaker 4: a normal life like anyone else. Right. Yes, were you

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Speaker 4: in a lot of trouble with the law as reason

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Speaker 4: that they would have ever suspected you of being involved

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Speaker 4: in a cold blooded murder, a terrible beating death.

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Speaker 7: Not at all?

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Speaker 4: What were you doing? What was your life like? Where'd

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Speaker 4: you grow up?

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Speaker 6: I grew up in Jersey City, in North Carolina, and

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Speaker 6: then I moved to New York in seventy nine and

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Speaker 6: I started working. I was working in Manhattan doing what

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Speaker 6: I worked for, Gristities. I worked for a lawyer when

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Speaker 6: I first arrived to New York City, So.

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Speaker 4: Just finding your way doing different jobs whatever.

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Speaker 7: I stayed with Gristiitis for quite some time.

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Speaker 6: The original job I had was working for a lawyer,

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Speaker 6: a criminal lawyer, and I was just doing statements of

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Speaker 6: fouling and typing up notes. Things got slow, so later

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Speaker 6: on I found a job with Christiiti's. He let me

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Speaker 6: stay until I found something better.

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Speaker 4: So you came to New York, like most people do,

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Speaker 4: I guess, to pursue your dreams and find your way.

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Speaker 4: And you were finding your way, things were going okay.

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Speaker 4: Do you have a family when this came down?

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Speaker 7: Yes, my family was in Jersey. I had a daughter.

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Speaker 4: This case stems out of a murder that happened in

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety one. And there's a lot of things that

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Speaker 4: are unusual about your case. But there are also a

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Speaker 4: lot of things that we see that are common in

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Speaker 4: wrongful convictions, including a false confession, which I think everyone

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Speaker 4: is fascinated by it and terrified of. I know, I am.

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Speaker 4: But in your case, this was a murder of a

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Speaker 4: guy named Michael Shaw, I think right, Yes, And he

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Speaker 4: was a guy who was murdered in nineteen ninety one.

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Speaker 4: He was beaten to death by three women. Again, pretty

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Speaker 4: unusual circumstance. And the reason we know he was beaten

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Speaker 4: to death by three women is because he lived long

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Speaker 4: enough to tell the tale. He died in the hospital. Yes,

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Speaker 4: so originally you were living in the area. Did you

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Speaker 4: know about the crime?

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Speaker 6: No, not at the time. No, I did not. I

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Speaker 6: found out all that information later on.

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Speaker 4: And how did you first become aware that this. Did

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Speaker 4: you know the victim?

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Speaker 7: I didn't know him, per se.

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Speaker 6: I just knew that he was like a picture post

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Speaker 6: man that stayed in the window. He set by the

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Speaker 6: window all the time because I used to walk my

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Speaker 6: dog around the block.

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Speaker 7: But I didn't know his name. I didn't know him.

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Speaker 6: From time to time he would actually to come over

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Speaker 6: to the window and would I get him a pack

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Speaker 6: of cigarettes, which I did because I walked around the

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Speaker 6: block and I walked my dog back and I just

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Speaker 6: passed it to him.

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Speaker 7: Through the window.

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Speaker 4: So he lived on the first floor, Yes, And so

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Speaker 4: when he was murdered, the word must have gotten around

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Speaker 4: the neighborhood. And you first heard about it from a detective,

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Speaker 4: is that right? Yes? And how'd that come about? Because

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Speaker 4: it's weird because you weren't arrested until many years later

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Speaker 4: when the case was cold. And then you actually drew

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Speaker 4: a terrible straw or bad break what every gonna call it,

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Speaker 4: because you got in the crosshairs of a guy who

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Speaker 4: we know now is one of the worst detectives in

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Speaker 4: the history of this country in terms of the damage

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Speaker 4: that he did to an entire burrow. Really, he wrecked

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Speaker 4: havoc on so many people, in so many cases, and

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Speaker 4: a whole system. So how did it come about that

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Speaker 4: you first encountered detectives, Garcella.

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Speaker 6: I believe I was walking my dog at the time,

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Speaker 6: and I mean the detective Scuss Selling his partner Shamil

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Speaker 6: approached me and asked me about the incident, and I said,

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Speaker 6: I didn't know. Actually I didn't even know the man's name.

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Speaker 6: I didn't know who he was. I just know him

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Speaker 6: by sight, you know, from sitting in the window. That's

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Speaker 6: all I knew about this individual. But then later on

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Speaker 6: after that incident, I didn't see the man anymore. After

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Speaker 6: a while, you know, I would still walk my dog,

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Speaker 6: but the man was not there in the window anymore.

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Speaker 4: So they approached you on the street, yes, And were

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Speaker 4: they friendly? Were they hostel? Did they put you in copsle?

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Speaker 4: How did this whole?

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Speaker 7: They were friendly. They just asked me some questions.

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Speaker 6: They also asked me about the same thing that I

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Speaker 6: know the man, and I told him I didn't know

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Speaker 6: who they were talking about at first. And then when

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Speaker 6: they was telling me that he lived there, and I said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 6: I remember seeing the man in the window, but I

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Speaker 6: didn't know him per se.

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Speaker 4: Did they tell you that he had been murdered.

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Speaker 6: No, they didn't state that. They just said something happened.

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Speaker 6: It was an incident with this guy. They was trying

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Speaker 6: to find out what happened.

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Speaker 4: And let's turn to you. So what was going on there?

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Speaker 4: First of all, Vanessa was sort of a person that

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Speaker 4: you would not really think would be involved in anything

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Speaker 4: like this. I mean, and meeting her now, she's such

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Speaker 4: a gentle soul. The idea that she would be involved

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Speaker 4: in a beating death seems so far fetched.

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Speaker 5: I certainly agree with that. But one of the big

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Speaker 5: mysteries always in the case was this business about Scarcella

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Speaker 5: stopping Vanessa because she was a woman walking a white dog.

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Speaker 5: Let me back up, right after mister Shaw was assaulted,

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Speaker 5: he didn't die till months later, so it didn't become

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Speaker 5: a homicide investigation for about four months time. So immediately

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Speaker 5: after the assault, it's basically a robbery investigation. But detectives

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Speaker 5: are working the robbery and the beating they're investigating somewhat.

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Speaker 5: And those detectives interviewed the super in mister Shaw's building

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Speaker 5: twice and memorialized that interview, and the super never said

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Speaker 5: anything about Vanessa Gathers. He never described Vanessa Gathers. He

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Speaker 5: never said, oh, there's a woman with a white dog

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Speaker 5: in the neighborhood who you should talk to. None of

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Speaker 5: that is reflected in those interview notes. But Scarcella consistently

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Speaker 5: testified that the reason he stopped Vanessa was because after

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Speaker 5: mister Shaw died, it did become a homicide investigation, obviously,

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Speaker 5: and Scarcella was assigned the case. He testified that one

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Speaker 5: of the first things he did was go interview the super.

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Speaker 5: He claimed that the Super said one of the women

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Speaker 5: who used to talk to Shaw and was friendly with

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Speaker 5: Shaw was a woman in the neighborhood with a white dog. Now, suspiciously,

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Speaker 5: Scarcella never memorialized that interview with the super, as you're

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Speaker 5: supposed to do, and as two prior detectives had done

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Speaker 5: when they interviewed the super. We always thought it was

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Speaker 5: suspicious that there was never any memorialization of that. Why

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Speaker 5: he in fact stopped Vanessa. I really don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I suppose it's conceivable the super said that, but the

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Speaker 5: Super was dead by the time of trial, so no

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Speaker 5: one really knows.

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Speaker 4: Well, we do know that the victim said that it

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Speaker 4: was three women. So the one thing you had in

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Speaker 4: common with the perpetrate it was that you were a woman, right,

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Speaker 4: But there's a lot of women, so just and we

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Speaker 4: know now that Scarcella didn't really care whether you were

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Speaker 4: the perpetrator or not. He just cared about getting convictions.

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Speaker 4: And he was very good at it actually, I mean

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Speaker 4: in a very nefarious and terrible way. He was famous

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Speaker 4: actually for solving cases, and that's probably what he was after.

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Speaker 4: So he saw you, figured he would stop and talk

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Speaker 4: to you, and maybe he was bored, had nothing else

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Speaker 4: to do. But it came and went right, and then

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Speaker 4: you went back to your life, and you know, eventually

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Speaker 4: you found out that mister Shaw had died, I'm sure,

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Speaker 4: and life went on.

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Speaker 6: Well that's basically what happened. Well, it was ninety two

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Speaker 6: actually when he came around, I think April or May

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Speaker 6: or something of nineteen ninety two when he came the

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Speaker 6: initial visit with him, and then the next time I

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Speaker 6: saw him was nineteen ninety seven. He's knocking on my door.

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Speaker 4: He came to your home. Yes, and what transpired next,

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Speaker 4: I mean, you had no reason to think that you

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Speaker 4: would ever be a suspect in anything like this. No,

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Speaker 4: and probably the memory of the whole thing had faded

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Speaker 4: to some extent, right because it was one coming.

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Speaker 6: I had already forgotten about him and the questioning at

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Speaker 6: that time.

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Speaker 7: I mean, I'm stayed in the same building. I didn't move.

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Speaker 6: If I had anything to hide, I think I would

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Speaker 6: have left. I mean, a lot of people in the

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Speaker 6: neighborhood moved out, but I was still there.

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Speaker 7: So there was no reason for.

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Speaker 6: Me to try and run, will do anything negative regard

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Speaker 6: in this manner, because I know I had no involvement

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Speaker 6: in it.

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Speaker 5: One of our hypotheses was that Vanessa was literally the

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Speaker 5: only one who had any connection to Shaw who was

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Speaker 5: actually still available to Scarcella, still living in the same building.

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Speaker 4: So by now it had turned into a homicide investigation.

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Speaker 4: Scarcella had decided that he was going to solve a

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Speaker 4: cold case, or maybe not, probably many of them. Right.

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Speaker 4: So when he did come see you six years after

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Speaker 4: the murder, what happened? What was his approach this time?

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Speaker 4: Was he friendly? Was he hostile to put you in coffs?

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Speaker 7: He was very friendly.

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Speaker 6: I actually was never in Coffs at that time we spoke.

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Speaker 6: He asked me, saying questions. He asked me, should I

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Speaker 6: come to the precinct. You know, I oblige and I

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Speaker 6: went there. He showed me some muck shots and stuff.

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Speaker 6: He asked me about some of the women in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 6: Did I know in them? It's a couple that I

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Speaker 6: did see that had I guess criminal records.

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Speaker 7: And that was basically it.

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Speaker 6: He never stated to me that I was a suspect

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Speaker 6: or anything. I had no knowledge of that up until

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Speaker 6: the time that we did. After the polygraph and all

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Speaker 6: of that other information that were transpire. He had my history.

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Speaker 6: I told him where I was working. You know, he

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Speaker 6: knew where I lived.

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Speaker 7: I didn't have anything to hide from this spoof. I

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Speaker 7: cooperated the best that I could.

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Speaker 6: I was working at the Brooklyn Family Court and he

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Speaker 6: picked me up that morning. He came to my job

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Speaker 6: and said he wanted me to come take a polygrab chest.

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Speaker 6: I went with him and everything. I had nothing to die.

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Speaker 6: So after that, we stayed at the Priests and all

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Speaker 6: of these other things transpired, and he kept stating to

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Speaker 6: me that he was going to take me home. It

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Speaker 6: got late into the evening before I left the Priests,

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Speaker 6: and it was night. It was night when I did

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Speaker 6: leave there, and he kept saying that my companion that

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Speaker 6: he would contact him.

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Speaker 7: He never did. He just continued to lie, Lie, Lie.

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Speaker 7: He was frightening.

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Speaker 6: He took his jacket off, he had his gun exposed,

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Speaker 6: and he kept on threatening me, saying I was dere

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Speaker 6: I was there. I kept telling him no, I wasn't.

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Speaker 6: And it just went back and forth like that for

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Speaker 6: quite some time.

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Speaker 4: So he went sort of progressively from friendly to you'd

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Speaker 4: pick you up and you probably were like most people.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you were law abiding citizen. It wasn't like

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Speaker 4: you had a long rap sheet, right.

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Speaker 6: I didn't have no knowledge of the law, so he

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Speaker 6: and I think he really knew that. So he knew

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Speaker 6: because I don't remember him randomizing me or anything.

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Speaker 7: I don't remember all of that.

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Speaker 6: As far as getting a lawyer, I didn't know I

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Speaker 6: needed one because I didn't know I was. I was

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Speaker 6: the person that was chlose Toh had committed this crime.

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Speaker 4: Right and Lisa, That's something that always bothers me is

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Speaker 4: that people like Vanessa who are innocent are very likely

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Speaker 4: to waive their Miranda rights and speak freely and not

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Speaker 4: request a lawyer. And if you're listening to the show. Now,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to encourage you. If you do get picked up,

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Speaker 4: don't assume anything, right, just request a lawyer, and other

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Speaker 4: than that, don't say anything other than your name, your address,

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Speaker 4: and that's basically it, right, And once you ask for

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Speaker 4: a lawyer, they're not allowed to ask you more questions.

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Speaker 7: That's right, That's right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they may do it anyway, but they'll be

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Speaker 4: breaking the law. Yeah, I mean, it is a tragic

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Speaker 4: and cruel irony that people like Vanessa who go in

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Speaker 4: wanting to help right and wanting to be cooperative and

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Speaker 4: good citizens and help the police, end up often really

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Speaker 4: on the terribly wrong end of the stick because of

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Speaker 4: the fact that they just don't know and they get

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Speaker 4: taken advantage of, which is exactly what happened here.

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Speaker 7: That's right.

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Speaker 5: And one of the issues that we identified with the polygraph,

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Speaker 5: which was basically how Scarcela kicked off that morning. With

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Speaker 5: the polygraph, a polygrapher is supposed to sit down alone

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Speaker 5: with this subject and basically explain to the subject why

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Speaker 5: they're there this morning, and for example, to say, do

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Speaker 5: you know why you're here? You were here because you're

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Speaker 5: suspected of involvement in this incident, and that's what I

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Speaker 5: want to talk to you about today. And in fact,

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Speaker 5: this particular polygraph never went through that exercise with Vanessa,

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Speaker 5: and she didn't know any better. Someone would say, well,

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Speaker 5: what do you think when someone's polygraphing you? But Vanessa

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Speaker 5: had had no prior experience with us. She was just

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Speaker 5: trying to do what they asked her to do.

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Speaker 4: And again, if you don't have anything to hide, and

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Speaker 4: if you are telling the truth, you'd think, well, why

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Speaker 4: shouldn't I take a polygraph? But not such a great idea. Well,

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Speaker 4: then we get to the part that gives me a

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Speaker 4: stomach ache. Is this whole process that takes place in

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Speaker 4: the interrogation room when someone in this case Garcela, but

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Speaker 4: it happens all over the country when a detective is

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Speaker 4: determined to get a confession, and they're not necessarily determined

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Speaker 4: to get the truth. In your case, they had no

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Speaker 4: reason to believe that you had any involvement, and yet

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Speaker 4: they approached you and interrogated you as if they basically

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Speaker 4: had everything in the world, every reason in the world

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Speaker 4: to suspect that you were the actual killer. Ultimately, you

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Speaker 4: confess to this crime. You didn't commit. And that's the

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Speaker 4: number one thing, Vanessa. When I talked to people who

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Speaker 4: aren't familiar with these issues, everybody says, I would never confess.

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Speaker 4: They couldn't get me to do it. That's crazy. I'm

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Speaker 4: too strong, I'm tough. I would never confit, that's you know.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like, well, let me tell you something. So

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Speaker 4: how did they get you? I mean, you're an intelligent woman,

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Speaker 4: you're a law abiding person. You would know enough to

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Speaker 4: know that that's a disaster, right, But you did it?

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Speaker 7: Yes, I did.

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Speaker 6: You are in a tiny room with these two police

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Speaker 6: detectives and you don't even know your rights.

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Speaker 7: I didn't know. I was terrified.

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Speaker 6: And then the badgering started and the jagger came off,

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Speaker 6: like I said, expose it, and he started threatening me

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Speaker 6: and leaning over her and you know, making all of

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Speaker 6: these accusations and stuff. And I continually told him that

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Speaker 6: I did not commit this crime.

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Speaker 7: I was not there. And when he wrote.

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Speaker 6: The statement, I told him we were going back and

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Speaker 6: for as he's trying to tell me to state this.

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Speaker 4: And state that this must have been confusing.

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Speaker 6: It was because I'm like, I'm not understanding what is

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Speaker 6: going on as far as what he's writing on paper.

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Speaker 6: He tried to get me to write that statement and

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Speaker 6: I said, I'm not writing anything because I don't know

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Speaker 6: what happened.

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Speaker 4: This is part of the process, right, And it's the

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Speaker 4: crazy thing in this country that police are allowed to lie.

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Speaker 4: They can say they have a satellite image of you

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Speaker 4: committing the crime. They can say that they found your fingerprints,

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Speaker 4: they can say that they have witnesses. They can say

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Speaker 4: almost anything they want. What they can't say is they

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Speaker 4: can't threaten you with say you're going to get the

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Speaker 4: death penalty if you're not. There's certain things they can't

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Speaker 4: do like that. But as far as the facts surrounding

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Speaker 4: the case, they can lie all they want, which I

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Speaker 4: think is crazy and't It's not that way in most

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Speaker 4: other Western European countries are well, Jason.

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Speaker 5: The reason they do that is to put the subject

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Speaker 5: in a helpless feeling situation so then they can get

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Speaker 5: them to turn and do what they want to do.

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Speaker 5: They make you feel helpless and then they extend and

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Speaker 5: olive branch. Just sign this and I'll take you home.

354
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Speaker 5: Just help me out here, I'll get you out of here.

355
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Speaker 5: But the first thing is making the subject feel helpless,

356
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Speaker 5: and they do that with these false sevenence ploys.

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Speaker 4: So which lies did they tell you?

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Speaker 6: Well, he told me that he had fingerprints, Yeah, eyewitnesses.

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Speaker 6: He has proof that I was in the house. And

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Speaker 6: I kept telling him, no, that's not true. And to me,

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Speaker 6: it's like now getting confused because I'm saying, there's no

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Speaker 6: way possible that this could be. But you know, he

363
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Speaker 6: continued to tell me different stories and different things that well,

364
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Speaker 6: at that point he said, you might be going to jail.

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Speaker 7: These are the things that would happen to you once

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Speaker 7: you get there.

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Speaker 6: You need to sign this paper that he wrote, and

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Speaker 6: he said, I'll take you home. So I'm constantly like,

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Speaker 6: I don't know what to do. Now I'm here by

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Speaker 6: myself in his little room and I'm crying, I'm set,

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Speaker 6: I'm hysterical. And he kept stated to me, I'm going

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Speaker 6: to let you call home. I said, I want to

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Speaker 6: call home. I felt that if I called my friend

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Speaker 6: maybe he would give me some information.

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Speaker 7: What should I do?

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Speaker 6: He denied my phone calls because I constantly told him

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Speaker 6: I would like to call home. He said, well, when

378
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Speaker 6: we finished, you could call home. I'll call I'll have

379
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Speaker 6: his partner call and let him know where I'm at,

380
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Speaker 6: I'm saying, because at this point of the day, I

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Speaker 6: should be home.

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Speaker 7: Which I wasn't.

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Speaker 6: So now my companion had no idea where I was

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Speaker 6: or what happened to me at all.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so all of this just adds to the stress

386
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Speaker 4: and confusion and terror. It's really terror, right that you're

387
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Speaker 4: experiencing at this point because you don't know what these

388
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Speaker 4: guys are capable of, and you know there's nobody but you,

389
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Speaker 4: and you're overmatched. You are really helpless. I mean, they

390
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Speaker 4: won't let you in many cases, they won't give you

391
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Speaker 4: any food, any water. You're just going to sit there

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Speaker 4: and they go in and they go out, and they

393
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Speaker 4: have this all. It's a whole protocol is designed to

394
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Speaker 4: do exactly what it did, which is to get you

395
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Speaker 4: to be willing to do basically anything and confess to anything. Right.

396
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Speaker 4: What's crazy on top of all the rest of this

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Speaker 4: is that they were not only committing an act of evil, right,

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Speaker 4: which is knowingly extracted a confession from a person that

399
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Speaker 4: they had every indication was innocent of the crime, but

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Speaker 4: also they were sloppy. And why I say that is

401
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 4: because the confession that you signed didn't make any sense

402
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 4: because the facts that were on that piece of paper

403
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Speaker 4: didn't match the evidence from the case. Right. They got

404
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 4: you to say that he was in a wheelchair, which

405
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Speaker 4: he wasn't, that it was a robbery of sixty dollars,

406
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Speaker 4: which would find out later that the guy probably didn't

407
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Speaker 4: have sixty dollars. There was a number of other facts

408
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Speaker 4: in there that were just wrong. And that's so weird

409
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Speaker 4: because I don't know. At least it seems to me,

410
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Speaker 4: if you were doing this, you would at least try

411
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Speaker 4: to get someone to sign a confess that's accurate to

412
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Speaker 4: the facts of the case. But they didn't even bother

413
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Speaker 4: to do that.

414
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Speaker 5: That's right, And one of the interesting things here was

415
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Speaker 5: that there were really two confession statements. One was the

416
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Speaker 5: handwritten statement which Scarcella himself wrote out and Vanessa merely signed,

417
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Speaker 5: and this was consistent with protocol at the time. There

418
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Speaker 5: was a video restatement of the confession and that is

419
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Speaker 5: led by an assistant district attorney with Scarcella in the room.

420
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Speaker 5: Now Scarcella could not control the questioning by the assistant

421
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Speaker 5: district attorney. Vanessa testified that they basically rehearsed and Scarcella

422
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Speaker 5: told her what to say in the video, but he

423
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Speaker 5: could not control some of the questions and the ADA,

424
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Speaker 5: for example, asked, was the old man standing?

425
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Speaker 7: Was he sitting?

426
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Speaker 5: And Vanessa said he was sitting, and he said, so

427
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Speaker 5: what was he sitting in? And Scarcella had not researched

428
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Speaker 5: was there ever a wheelchair in the apartment, because Vanessa

429
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,479
Speaker 5: then guessed she said he was sitting in a wheelchair.

430
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Speaker 4: Because he was old. So that might have made sense, right,

431
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Speaker 4: but it's.

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Speaker 5: Not true, and so there was a gotcha for us

433
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Speaker 5: as the defense team. That was a great mistake in

434
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Speaker 5: the confession, which we could use to prove it was coerced.

435
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 5: And the caine. The ADA asked what kind of cain

436
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 5: was used to hit mister Shaw, and Vanessa again guessed

437
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 5: because she had no idea. She guessed that it was

438
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 5: a wooden cane. In fact, it was a metal cane.

439
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 5: So that's how some of these mistakes came in, is

440
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 5: that Scarcella could not control the ADA and his questioning.

441
00:23:53,480 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 5: Thank god, because otherwise we might not have caught these mistakes.

442
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 4: So ultimately you end up going to trial, but before

443
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 4: you get to trial, they held you in Rykers Island

444
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 4: for thirteen months. Yes, how terrifying.

445
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 7: Is that very very terrifying.

446
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 6: But prior to me getting there, after all of the

447
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 6: confession and everything, they still never told me I was

448
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,360
Speaker 6: being arrested for the crime. They bypassed my house. They

449
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 6: still stated to me that they were taking me home.

450
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 6: And we got to the precint I said, why didn't

451
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 6: you pass my house or we have to make one

452
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 6: more stop. This is still lives And we got to

453
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 6: the precinct and at that point then he said he

454
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 6: had to handcuff me. I was never cuffed. I was

455
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 6: never told I was arrested and they had to cuff

456
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 6: me to take me into that building, which was Central Booking.

457
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 6: I didn't even know that. And then I was put

458
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 6: in the cage and I just stayed there until they

459
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 6: said I was supposed to see a judge or whatever

460
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 6: I had to It was all a blur because I

461
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 6: don't recall all of that that happened at that time.

462
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 6: And the next day I guessed that I was on

463
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 6: the bus going to Rikers Island and up on my rival.

464
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 6: You know, they do the strips serge your neckad you're

465
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 6: walking around in the sheet in the cage with a

466
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 6: whole bunch of people, other women, and you know, and

467
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 6: then you put into a cell. And at that time

468
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 6: when they put me to a housing unit, I was

469
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 6: able to call home finally and tell him where I was.

470
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 4: At and what was that phone called?

471
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 8: Like it was.

472
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 7: He was very upset. I was upset.

473
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 6: I was hysterical, and I still couldn't think of how

474
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 6: I landed here, you know, in Riker's Island. It was

475
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 6: just it was ter and you have no clothes. You

476
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 6: have the rents out what you have on. You took

477
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 6: a shower, your rents out what you have on and

478
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 6: hang it in your cell, hopefully it be dry by morning,

479
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 6: cause that's all you have.

480
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 7: And that was it til the next morning.

481
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 6: Then you're taking out and you go to the mess

482
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 6: hall as they call it, and and you're just there

483
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 6: in that space until they put you for two weeks.

484
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 6: I guess it's two weeks before they put you in

485
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 6: population and then you they assign you another where I.

486
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 7: Was living in the dormitory.

487
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 6: In the dorm where it's a whole bunch of beds

488
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 6: and women half toilets. There was no privacy at all.

489
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 6: You take showers where the whole bunch of other women

490
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 6: in one big circle thing, and you just got spickers

491
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 6: coming out the wall, and it was a lot of

492
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 6: different things that happen. It's it's terrible just being in

493
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 6: that place. A lot of different things go on, women

494
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 6: and women. I started working the night shift. I did

495
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 6: whatever I had to do so I wouldn't be on

496
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 6: the dorm at night. I just didn't. It was just

497
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 6: disgusting for me. I couldn't deal with that part of it.

498
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 4: So ultimately, thirteen months later, you end up finally getting

499
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 4: your day in court, and you had a lawyer who

500
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 4: didn't seems like he did the minimum amount of work

501
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 4: that he could do. Now you know, I don't know.

502
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 4: He may have been working on four hundred other cases.

503
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 4: There are certainly lawyers of public defenders in New York

504
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 4: who are so overburdened. But that doesn't matter when it's

505
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 4: your life on the line, right And we don't know

506
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 4: the personal circumstances that this individual was in, but one

507
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 4: way or another, he was not prepared and did not

508
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 4: represent you adequately, and you really didn't have a chance.

509
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 7: That's true.

510
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 6: Well, I like the attorney I made. My companion kept

511
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 6: asking him and court. When we went to court, could

512
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 6: he speak with him? He always said yes, but he

513
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 6: left the courtroom. He adjourned my case on numerous occasions,

514
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 6: so there was nothing that he did.

515
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 7: There was no.

516
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 6: Investigation because as far as I'm concerned, when this incident happened,

517
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 6: I don't see where there's a police investigation done in anything.

518
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 6: By the time that they decided the man had passed away,

519
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 6: there was dust that family had came in and cleaned

520
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 6: the house, did a lot of things, so therefore there

521
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 6: was no fingerprints. There was nothing. The house was cleaned

522
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 6: because the family members. This is all the information I

523
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 6: found out later on after I was incarcerated.

524
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 4: Another terrible aspect of pre trial detention is that I'm

525
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 4: guessing your lawyer didn't visit you.

526
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 7: No, he did not, right, And.

527
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 4: There's the reason behind that too, which is that for

528
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 4: a lawyer to go to Rikers Island and visit you,

529
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: basically that's going to take their whole day. They don't

530
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 4: make it easy. It's a whole process you have to

531
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 4: go through. They have to travel to the jail. So

532
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 4: people who are not in the system right, people who

533
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 4: are out on bail or on their own recognisance, have

534
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 4: a much better chance because they can meet more freely

535
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 4: with their lawyers and get better representation, which is another

536
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 4: thing that I think it's important for people to understand.

537
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 4: It's one of the reasons why our bail system is

538
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 4: so unfair and ill conceived. So you were in that

539
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 4: exact situation where you're facing a murder wrap. Your lawyer's

540
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 4: not visiting you, he's not really doing any work every

541
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: time he comes in, and a journeys the case, you

542
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 4: go right back to Rikers Island, and so there's just

543
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 4: nothing that's fair or equitable about that. And ultimately, though

544
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 4: thirteen months later, you did get your day in court.

545
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 4: By this point, I mean, you've been through so much,

546
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 4: and you'd been lied to by the people who are

547
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 4: supposed to protect you, and you'd been let down by

548
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 4: the other person was supposed to protect you as your lawyer.

549
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 4: The whole system is failing you. But when you went

550
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 4: to court, did you believe that justice would finally be

551
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 4: done and people would see that you were an innocent person.

552
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 7: Yes?

553
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 4: I did.

554
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 6: That's the reason why I test on my own behalf,

555
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 6: because I didn't have anyone.

556
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 7: To testify for me. And I mean Scott Selly.

557
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 6: He went out of his way to make sure that

558
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 6: family members were there, and a lot of them had

559
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 6: moved away because of the time lapse. They were in

560
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 6: another state, but he brought a lot of them there

561
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 6: so that the jury could see that there was a

562
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 6: large family, and it just made things move a little

563
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 6: smoother for him to get the conviction.

564
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 7: But I did speak to the family. I spoke to

565
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 7: the judge.

566
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 6: I even wrote a letter to the judge stating that

567
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 6: I did not commit this crime.

568
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 4: So these are what happened.

569
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 5: Well, Finessa testified that the confession was coerced and that

570
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 5: she was not there.

571
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 4: Now.

572
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 5: The jury deliberated for I think over thirteen hours. It

573
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 5: was a lengthy deliberation, relatively speaking, and they acquitted her

574
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 5: on the top count, which was murder. But there must

575
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 5: have been some kind of compromise because they did convict

576
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 5: her on the manslaughter and the only evidence against her

577
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 5: was the confession. But you have to remember this was

578
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 5: back in ninety seven and juries were not sensitized to

579
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 5: the issues we all know today about how innocent people

580
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 5: can confess. The science was not there then, and it

581
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 5: would take a lot for a jury to reject a

582
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 5: confession that someone seemed to have voluntarily made, and there

583
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 5: was no false confession expert who testified on her behalf

584
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 5: a trial, just Vanessa's word against Scarcella's word. And obviously

585
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 5: Scarcela at that time was a senior detective who nobody

586
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 5: had reason to question. There had been no allegations yet

587
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 5: that he had engaged in any corrupt eye activity, So

588
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 5: it was reasonable for a jury to buy Scarcello's account

589
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 5: instead of Finesses. And I think that's what happened. If

590
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 5: the same case we're tried today, I think a jury

591
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 5: would be much more attuned to coercion issues and that

592
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 5: false confessions can happen. I think it would be a

593
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 5: different outcome today.

594
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 4: Frankly, Yeah, And I want to make sure that people

595
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 4: who are listening really take that in because now we

596
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 4: know there's so much research on false confessions. It is

597
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 4: a wonderful show on Netflix called The Confession Tapes. So

598
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 4: many people have seen the Confessions and other programs like

599
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 4: Making a Murderer that are so obviously false. We know

600
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 4: that in DNA exonerations over twenty percent of the cases

601
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 4: involve false confessions. It's a scary phenomenon, but it's very real.

602
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 4: And so Vanessa, at that moment when you were convicted,

603
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: because the jury did come back in and declare you

604
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: guilty of second degree manslaughter, what was that like?

605
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 7: I think I just went numb on it and believe it.

606
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 6: I didn't think I would get that kind of time

607
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 6: anyway for this he even if they didn't believe me.

608
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 6: I really didn't even realize how much time I had

609
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 6: to do. I just didn't believe it, so that nobody

610
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 6: believed me, you know what I was stating to them.

611
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 6: I mean, I know he had some issues in the past,

612
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 6: and he just came back forward trying to just get

613
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 6: a conviction, because he did have some problems in the department.

614
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 7: But he just came gun home at me.

615
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 6: And I'm not realizing that he was set me up

616
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 6: the whole time just to take the four for this crime.

617
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: But he did. And he probably got some pats on

618
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 4: the back and some you know, sort of accolades for

619
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 4: solving another cold case. And you were, you know, just

620
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 4: a little detailed to him. That's all. I probably never

621
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 4: Probably I'm guessing he went home that night, had a

622
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 4: nice dinner, you know, watch some TV, and went to sleep.

623
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 4: So you end up serving ten years in prison where

624
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: you had a perfect disciplinary record, and the whole time

625
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 4: you maintained your innocence, even though there were times when

626
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 4: you came before a parole board and it would have

627
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 4: been better for you in some ways to say that

628
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 4: you were guilty, because they would have probably sent you home.

629
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 6: Yes, that's true. But the first couple of times I went,

630
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 6: I did not. I kept I stated that I did

631
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 6: not do the crime.

632
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 4: But they don't want to hear that. They want to

633
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 4: hear that you're remorseful, that you feel bad that the victim.

634
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 6: I can't feel remorse when I didn't do something you

635
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 6: don't understand.

636
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 7: How do you feel?

637
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 6: You don't know the person, you didn't do the crime,

638
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 6: so how can you feel remorse. I mean, I feel

639
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 6: remorse when someone is getting beaten or something like that,

640
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 6: actually seen it happen. But as far as me doing

641
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 6: something like that, never.

642
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 5: Never Finessa's right. In the first two parole hearings, she

643
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 5: said I did not do what they said I did.

644
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 5: But eight years in with a perfect disciplinary record and

645
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 5: seeing how little asserting her evidence got her with the

646
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 5: parole board previously, in her third parole hearing, she appeared

647
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 5: to admit guilt, and we retained a fabulous expert who

648
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 5: was able to explain the conundrum that someone like Vanessa

649
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 5: is facing. And Vanessa testified in her deposition that everyone

650
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 5: on the inside was telling her you're an idiot. You've

651
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 5: got to tell them what they want to hear. Just

652
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 5: tell them you did it. And so Vanessa in the

653
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,760
Speaker 5: third parole hearing appeared to admit guilt when in fact

654
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,720
Speaker 5: obviously she was not guilty, but it was the only

655
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 5: way she could see to get out early.

656
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 6: At that point, it didn't matter they it didn't matter.

657
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 6: Even in the third hearing, date hit me again with

658
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 6: another two years, which is pissed my cr date, my

659
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 6: condition to release. If it was up to them, I

660
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 6: would have still been in there until two thousand and eight.

661
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 4: Now we're going to get to the good part of

662
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 4: the story, right, because there is a happy ending, or

663
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: you wouldn't be sitting here now and you wouldn't be

664
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 4: enjoying the nice, big, extended family that you now have.

665
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 4: And so the good guys come to the rescue. Right.

666
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 4: You have Lisa and her team at Hughes, Hubbard and Red,

667
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 4: and you have the legal aid Society, and then at

668
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: just about the right time in Brooklyn, the Conviction Review

669
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 4: Unit was established, and that unit has done phenomenal work

670
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 4: in reversing many wrongful convictions, including last time I looked

671
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 4: at was seven or eight that Scarcela was directly responsible for,

672
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 4: including yours. So let's talk about that, because the happy

673
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 4: ending part of this story is really really important because

674
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 4: it requires people like Lisa and other dedicated professionals to

675
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 4: go and reverse one of these things. It's hard. I mean,

676
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 4: they don't make it easy at all. So how did

677
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 4: it come about Lisa? How did she end up getting justice?

678
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 4: After all?

679
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 5: Credit initially unquestionably goes to the Legal Aid Society. This

680
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 5: is what happened. Charles Hines was in the political fight

681
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 5: of his career and there had been an initial Scarcella

682
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 5: related exoneration in the David Ranta case, and the New

683
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 5: York Times and Ken Thompson are breathing down Charles Hines's back,

684
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 5: and he says, it's okay, everybody, I'm telling you right now,

685
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 5: I am going to reinvestigate every trial conviction that detective

686
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 5: Scarcella touched, and Hines prepared a list which has never

687
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 5: been publicly available. I don't know anyone that's ever seen it.

688
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 5: Initially it had at least fifty names of defendants on it.

689
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 5: And what the DA's office did was they contacted the

690
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 5: last lawyer of record in each of those fifty cases. Well,

691
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 5: the Legal Aid Society was the last lawyer of record

692
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 5: in a good half of those, about twenty five. And

693
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 5: so Legal Aid went to firms around town looking for

694
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 5: partners which is how Hughes Hubbard got involved with the case,

695
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 5: and we proceeded on a three year partnership with Legal Aid.

696
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 5: We reinvestigated the crime and marshaled our arguments, retained experts,

697
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 5: and were able to make a persuasive pitch to the

698
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 5: then District Attorney, Ken Thompson, who had beaten Charles Hines

699
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 5: in that election. And that is the short story of

700
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 5: how we were able to get to the exoneration day.

701
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 4: And Ken Thompson sadly died last year at the young

702
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 4: age of fifty. He was a good man and a

703
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 4: decent man. He was a friend of mine, but he

704
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 4: was so proud. You know, he used to walk around

705
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 4: with a picture of you. I don't know, do you

706
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 4: know that?

707
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 6: No, I know it's in his office but I didn't

708
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 6: know he had the picture with it.

709
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 4: He at his birthday party. He has this cardboard thing.

710
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 4: I'm holding my arms out wide to show how big

711
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 4: it was, and then it was about a couple of

712
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 4: feet three feet high, and on it it had a

713
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 4: picture of you and the other exoneries that he his

714
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 4: office had helped to exonerate. And so he was very

715
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,839
Speaker 4: proud of you and of the work that he and

716
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 4: his team had done to help in your case. I

717
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 4: remember him mentioning you specifically, So you should feel good

718
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 4: about that. So when finally the light shone on you

719
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 4: and on your case and justice was done, and it

720
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 4: was proven by all these good people that this had happened,

721
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 4: and that you were telling the truth all along, except

722
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 4: when you were lying, because it was them telling you

723
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 4: what to say, right, I mean, but in fact, as

724
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 4: you had been saying you were innocent for so many years,

725
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 4: what did that feel like when finally you got your

726
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 4: life back?

727
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 6: It felt great, and I was like, I'm saying, I'm

728
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 6: able to finally put this behind me. You don't know

729
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 6: what you're feeling at that time, because it's like it's

730
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 6: clear now that I didn't do it. I mean, you

731
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 6: don't know what people think of you, whether you did

732
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 6: this crime or not, because it's on record stating that

733
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 6: you did. But I felt great, I mean I felt

734
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 6: reallyd Now live my life without having that on my record,

735
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 6: it's very difficult to try and find a job, to

736
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 6: move on in life because you have this hanging over

737
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 6: your head. Now my record is clean, I could state

738
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 6: that I have no record, which makes life a lot

739
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 6: easier for me because people look to a background check.

740
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 7: Is nothing there.

741
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 4: It's nothing there because you never had anything there, because

742
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 4: you were always there, always were a law abiding citizen.

743
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 6: Yes, but as far as the law and the criminal

744
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 6: justice system said, yes you have a record, it's on there.

745
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: Not anymore.

746
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 7: Not anymore, it's been taken away.

747
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,439
Speaker 4: And now you know, there's another aspect of this, which

748
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 4: is something that's so troubling. You know, when we live

749
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 4: in a country where we have approximately four point four

750
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 4: percent of the world's population, but we have thirty three

751
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 4: percent of the world's female prison population, which is just

752
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 4: so outrageous. I mean, it's a national disgrace the way

753
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 4: we treat women in this country. And when somebody like

754
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 4: you is locked up, you're missing out on your children's lives,

755
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 4: right and your children, grandchildren and that dynamic. I mean,

756
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 4: that must have been an extra punishment.

757
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 7: It was.

758
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 6: My granddaughter was like only a year or when I

759
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 6: went in, and it caused a lot of chaos between

760
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 6: me and my daughter because I wasn't there for her.

761
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 6: You understand, when she needed her mother to help her,

762
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 6: when she had questions about raising her daughter.

763
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:08,479
Speaker 7: I wasn't there.

764
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 4: She couldn't even call you.

765
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 2: No.

766
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 4: And not only were there, but you were far away,

767
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 4: right That That's another thing.

768
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 6: I was in bedfoot for a while, and then I

769
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 6: finally moved to They moved me to Bayview, which is

770
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 6: in Manhattan, which was made closer because I didn't get

771
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 6: a lot of visits. I didn't get visits because my

772
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 6: family couldn't come to the facility because we were poor.

773
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 6: We didn't have money like that. I mean, even like

774
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 6: my father was living at the time. He wanted to

775
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 6: put up his farm. I wouldn't allow him to do

776
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 6: that because they gave me a quarter million dollar bill.

777
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 6: I'm saying, where do you think I'm gonna get that

778
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 6: kind of money from. It was difficult for everyone. I

779
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 6: lost a lot of family members. I lost a brother,

780
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 6: or sister, my uncle, my aunt, I lost my mother,

781
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 6: my father's brother. It was it was a lot of

782
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 6: family member once that passed away. During my first year incarcerated,

783
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 6: I couldn't attend anything because if you're in New York

784
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 6: or if your family's out of state, you can't go

785
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 6: to the services.

786
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 7: So that was hard for me to deal with too.

787
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 6: It was a lot of things that that I missed

788
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 6: out on because of my incarceration.

789
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 4: So you had to endure the death of numerous family

790
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 4: members while you were behind bars for something you didn't do,

791
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 4: and you weren't even allowed to go to the funeral. No. Right, So,

792
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 4: I mean, it's so amazing to me that you're here now,

793
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 4: standing up straight, proud, like, able to put a sentence together, right,

794
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 4: able to just have a life when you've been through

795
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 4: such an incredibly terrible ordeal that you never deserved. I mean,

796
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 4: it's crazy. So now the good news is you have

797
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 4: gotten your life back, right. I mean, this thing actually

798
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 4: happened almost twenty years ago. Must be crazy to think

799
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 4: about that. And now you've been out for some time,

800
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 4: and what's the situation now? You settled your lawsuits, right,

801
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 4: which is great? Yes, And It's worth noting that Scarcela

802
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 4: not only ruined so many people's lives and left so

803
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 4: many crimes unsolved, leading to many more crimes happening, because obviously,

804
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 4: when he arrested and was able to get convictions on

805
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 4: the wrong people, the right people were out there committing

806
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,479
Speaker 4: more crimes. Right, So he's got that. And then also

807
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 4: there's been tens of millions of dollars paid out to

808
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 4: so many victims of his by the city, which is

809
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 4: taxpayer money. So there's nothing cute or funny about what

810
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 4: this guy was doing. When these guys behave in this way,

811
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 4: who are supposed to be protecting us and keeping us safe,

812
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 4: it has so many terrible consequences across the board. So

813
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 4: now where are you living, how's your life? What's your

814
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 4: family situation? I want to hear, well, I'm living.

815
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 6: In Jersey's City now, although I was living in Manhattan

816
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 6: until twenty fourteen and working. I was working from the

817
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 6: day that I got out of prison because I met

818
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 6: a couple. They gave me a job and I work

819
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 6: with them for almost eight years until they retired. And

820
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 6: then now living in Jersey City. My mother has Alzheimer's.

821
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 6: That's one of the reasons I moved back to Jersey City.

822
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 7: Which she is.

823
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 6: I recently purchased a home or it's eleventh graduations. I

824
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 6: have the first one, and my daughter has a second.

825
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 6: It's a two family house and she's upstairs with a

826
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 6: daughter and her granddaughter, my granddaughter, my great granddaughter and

827
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 6: my daughter, so we all live in together.

828
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 4: Right, have any boys in your family?

829
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 7: We do have boys.

830
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 6: I have brothers, But as far as me, it's four

831
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 6: generations of females. Well five, you put my mother in there,

832
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 6: but it's just females.

833
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 4: You got four generations living under one roof in Jersey City.

834
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 4: It sounds incredible and isn't that nice though, that now

835
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 4: you're able to make up for the time that you

836
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 4: lost with your family. Now you have your whole like

837
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 4: so many of you all there together. I mean, it

838
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 4: must be just a joy for you.

839
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 7: It is. It is wonderful.

840
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 6: I can see my granddaughter, my great granddaughter at any

841
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 6: time if I need to go somewhere in My granddaughter

842
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 6: does have a car. She's working, so she could take

843
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 6: me and then I get this babysit my granddaughter.

844
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 4: So that's amazing. Well, listen, I'm happy that things finally

845
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 4: worked out. I want to apologize to you for what

846
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 4: the city and the state did to you. There's no

847
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 4: excuse for it, but I'm glad you're here now. One

848
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 4: of my favorite parts of the show often is to

849
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,439
Speaker 4: turn the microphone over to our featured guest and see,

850
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,720
Speaker 4: is there anything else you want to share with the audience.

851
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 6: Well, no, I'm just saying that. Well, during the time

852
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 6: that I was in there, I mean, I wasn't going

853
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 6: to let the time do me.

854
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 7: I was going to do the time.

855
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 6: So I got myself involved with a lot of different

856
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 6: activities throughout the prison. I worked hard to stay in

857
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 6: touch with my family. I would read my granddaughter books

858
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 6: on you know, on video and send the books. There's

859
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 6: a lot of programs in there. There's a lot of

860
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 6: things you could do even though you're fighting your case.

861
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 6: But do something positive, you know, don't let the negativity

862
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 6: rule you.

863
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 4: And Lisa any final thoughts, I would.

864
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 5: Just say, having known Vanessa now for five or six years,

865
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 5: she is an exceptional person and the only way I

866
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 5: think she was able to get through this ordeal was

867
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 5: her strength of character. She got into prison, and I

868
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 5: think this woman just put her head down and said,

869
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 5: I'm going to get through this. And she just was

870
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 5: forward thinking. She never obsessed about how did this happen?

871
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 5: How did I get here? It was just one day

872
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 5: at a time. I've got to get out of here.

873
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 5: And she mentioned the couple that hired her right after prison.

874
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 5: I just want to speak to that because I think

875
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 5: it's so telling about Vanessa. Literally, a wealthy couple was

876
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 5: volunteering at Bayview, husband and wife. Vanessa was running the

877
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 5: GED program. She was running this thing, that thing, and

878
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 5: they elbowed each other and said, why is she here?

879
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 7: We don't get it.

880
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 5: She's not like anyone else in here. And they befriended Vanessa,

881
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 5: and literally one week after she was released, she was

882
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 5: in a full time job working for them, and she

883
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 5: was the chief administrator of their very successful company and

884
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 5: worked for these people for seven years. They trusted her,

885
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 5: they loved her. They could see what she was capable of.

886
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 5: And you know, my client is just an extraordinary woman,

887
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 5: and it's a testament to her character that she was

888
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 5: able to get through this.

889
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 4: Well, both of you are extraordinary women. So Vanessa, Lisa,

890
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 4: thank you so much for coming in and appearing on

891
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,400
Speaker 4: the show. You've been listening to a very special episode

892
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 4: of Wrongful Conviction with our guests Vanessa Others and Lisa Kaya.

893
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 8: Thank you for having me, don't forget to give us

894
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:19,280
Speaker 8: a fantastic review.

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00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 4: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm

896
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 4: a proud donor to the Ennisnce Project and I really

897
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 4: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

898
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 4: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innisonceproject

899
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 4: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

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00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 4: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

901
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 4: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

902
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 4: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to.

903
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,720
Speaker 8: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at.

904
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a

905
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 4: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company.

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00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 8: Number One

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00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 4: In the Morning, The Boy