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Speaker 1: Up next, Out Loud with Gianno called Well, part of

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Speaker 1: the beginning with school such Welcome back to Outllowed with

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Speaker 1: Gianno Calledwell. My guess is Dr Drew Pinsky, a long

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Speaker 1: time doctor, author, radio and TV personality and public intellectual.

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Speaker 1: We discussed this background in medicine, the response to the

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Speaker 1: continuing COVID pandemic, how childhood traumas affect our adult relationships

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Speaker 1: and response to hardships, as well as the outcome to

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Speaker 1: the election. That is to say, you'll learn a lot

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Speaker 1: from this conversation. Let's go Welcome to Outlow with Giano

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Speaker 1: called Bow, Dr and Drew is such an honor to

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Speaker 1: be on with you. You have a long career of

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Speaker 1: certainly only a lot that I can learn from as

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Speaker 1: uh someone who has a podcast here, and I just

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Speaker 1: want to thank you for assuring sharing your expertise with

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Speaker 1: my audience. Thank you for coming on Outlowed with Gianna

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Speaker 1: called Well, Thank you, thank you for having me absolutely

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Speaker 1: so many of our listeners have probably listened to you

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Speaker 1: for a very very long time. You've been on television

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Speaker 1: and a radio since nine eighties. How would you say

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Speaker 1: the viewers attitudes and habits have changed since then? When

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Speaker 1: it comes to consumption of help related news and information. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's a massive topic. I mean, it's it's it's literally

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Speaker 1: a different world. I mean, I can't even tell you

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Speaker 1: how different it is. Let let me just just talk

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Speaker 1: for a second about how we seem to approach just

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Speaker 1: let's say this current pandemic. I mean, I was very

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Speaker 1: The reason I got involved in radio was HIV and AIDS,

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Speaker 1: which at the time I got involved in radio, we

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Speaker 1: just had stopped calling GRIDS get related to testinal disease syndrome.

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Speaker 1: We're just starting to call it AIDS. We didn't have

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Speaker 1: a causative organism yet. And one Anthony Fauci was encouraging

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Speaker 1: us young doctors to get out there and educate because

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Speaker 1: he kept saying, they're gonna be two million dead, two

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Speaker 1: million dead. We're gonna have two million deaths if you

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Speaker 1: don't get out there and change people's behavior. And we

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Speaker 1: ended up with a hundred seventy five thousand at that

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Speaker 1: same time interval, and uh, it really motivated me to

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Speaker 1: go out and and talk to people. Now, we didn't

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Speaker 1: at that time, go if you have sex with somebody,

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Speaker 1: you're going to murder them. You're a murderer. How we

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Speaker 1: do that now? If you if you go around without

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Speaker 1: a mask, you're murdering grandma. That is insane. That is

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Speaker 1: the worst possible health messaging I've ever heard. And yet

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Speaker 1: we seem to have adopted that as axiomatic. Now. So

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Speaker 1: there's that issue, this sort of hysteria with which we're

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Speaker 1: approaching everything. Then we have, of course, the Internet that

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Speaker 1: kind of made love lines sort of obsolete because people

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Speaker 1: had all the information at their fingertips. Why do they

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Speaker 1: need be? And yet what I'm finding is they're just

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Speaker 1: as confused as ever. They just the the is such

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Speaker 1: a vast gap between information and knowledge. People don't understand

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Speaker 1: how to apply information, how to assess information, how to

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Speaker 1: consolidate it into a landscape of other information. They just

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Speaker 1: look at facts as well, they look at things presented

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Speaker 1: as acts by the Internet, and they just don't know

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Speaker 1: what to do with it. People are as in weird ways,

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Speaker 1: as confused as ever as ever. Yet they kind of

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Speaker 1: know the words, they just don't know what to do

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Speaker 1: with them. Yeah, and I completely agree with that assessment.

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Speaker 1: And I'll also say, uh to COVID, you talk about

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Speaker 1: Dr Anthony Fauci and a lot of the things that

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Speaker 1: was said earlier on seemed to be incorrect, and attitudes

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Speaker 1: around some of the the preventative measures have kind of changed.

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Speaker 1: You look at the CDC measures saying, hey, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily have to quarantine for fourteen days, maybe we take

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Speaker 1: it down the seven. I remember initially they were saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, mass would make a difference. Now seemingly they

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Speaker 1: make a lot of difference. But you've also you made

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Speaker 1: comments before that you you've said that, uh, perhaps you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have said when it comes to COVID, what were

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Speaker 1: what I what I apologize for. In fact, I kind

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Speaker 1: of got it right, But what I apologize for was

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Speaker 1: not appreciating how brutal it is in the very at

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Speaker 1: risk populations. And I've seen a out of COVID now

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Speaker 1: and and in certain situations it's it's brutal, But for

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Speaker 1: the most part, for the of people who contract COVID,

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Speaker 1: it's the flu. And that's kind of what I was

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Speaker 1: saying that we were I could see the panic coming.

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Speaker 1: I could see the way the press was framing this

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Speaker 1: thing before it ever hit these shores. They were using

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Speaker 1: words to describe what was going on in Italy, which

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Speaker 1: was frankly a mismanaged situation. They were using staggering, grim, cataclysmic. Well,

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Speaker 1: well now we're, you know, many hundreds thousands of cases later.

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Speaker 1: What words are you going to use now, guys? I

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Speaker 1: mean just the excesses in what they how they reported things,

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Speaker 1: And so it became impossible for anyone to know are

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Speaker 1: we are we in trouble? Is there are there a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases? There are there a few cases? Is

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Speaker 1: everyone getting really sick? Are there enough hospital bets? It's

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Speaker 1: just I was on the news two nights ago and

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Speaker 1: they were reporting a hospital it was overflowing. They have

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Speaker 1: to take a closet and turn it into an ICU.

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Speaker 1: So I went in and found what was going on.

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Speaker 1: They had a neonatal I see you. They weren't using

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Speaker 1: anymore that they stored things in for a short while

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Speaker 1: that they reopened as an adult. I see you, perfectly reasonable,

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Speaker 1: perfectly normal procedure. And of of again, the headline was

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Speaker 1: I see you overflowing. What percentage of the I c

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Speaker 1: you beds do you imagine with that headline were filled

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Speaker 1: with COVID cases? It was other things, and those other

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Speaker 1: things are typically illnesses. First of all, this time of year,

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Speaker 1: we always get i CEU surges and people are delaying

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Speaker 1: coming to the hospital because of the horrible panic porn

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Speaker 1: that the press is creating. Wow, and people are being

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Speaker 1: disenfranchise who have legitimate and serious health situations because I

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Speaker 1: know a lot of hospitals and doctors said hey, we

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Speaker 1: can't do your surgery because of COVID, or don't come

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Speaker 1: in for this situation because of COVID and UM. It

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Speaker 1: seems like they realized that was a bad strategy because

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Speaker 1: now they are They're not They're trying not to stop

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Speaker 1: doing what hospitals do. They're trying to continue their usual

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Speaker 1: they're they're obviously not doing elective stuff, but the they're

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Speaker 1: trying to preserve beds where they can, but they're trying

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Speaker 1: to function. Healthcare was trying to function and most of

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Speaker 1: the beds are filled with usual fair non non COVID.

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Speaker 1: COVID is just adding a stress to the system, which

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Speaker 1: is what happened in pandemics. Happened in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: ten with the H one N one pandemic, and yet

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Speaker 1: no one was even aware that happened. Yeah, and that's

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Speaker 1: so interesting that this pandemic has impacted at least COVID

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Speaker 1: has impacted African Americans at such an extreme rate. And

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Speaker 1: I was on the let me let me tell you

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Speaker 1: something interesting. Uh, this is what this is. I'm really

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Speaker 1: very upset about this, and you need to help me

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Speaker 1: with this. Because there are nine percent of the population

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles are African American, and yet they're only

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Speaker 1: getting seven percent of the COVID cases in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: African Americans are doing better than every one else, and

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Speaker 1: Hispanics are doing vastly more poorly. Why Why isn't the

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Speaker 1: Public Health Department going in and figuring out what's going

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Speaker 1: right in the African American community and what's going wrong

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Speaker 1: in the Hispanic and rather than using a sledge hammer

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Speaker 1: and shutting down all of southern California, use a damn scalpel.

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Speaker 1: And I've been saying this lately. I mean, what if

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Speaker 1: when there was a typhoid outbreak in Manhattan at the

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Speaker 1: turn of the century, they shut down Manhattan. No, the

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Speaker 1: public Health Department went in and followed the cases, and

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Speaker 1: they found typhoid mary. They extracted typhoid mary, and the

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Speaker 1: outbreak stopped. That's how public health is done. What happened

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Speaker 1: to our public health officials. It's the weirdest thing. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think the public health officials in in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 1: They're shutting down indoor and outdoor nining and then going

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Speaker 1: out to nine. So I mean, what they're doing, and

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Speaker 1: now they're now they're being called the court because this

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Speaker 1: is capricious, no evidence. The scariest thing I hear them

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Speaker 1: saying is what we have to do something. When I

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Speaker 1: was training residents, and I taught internal medicine for several years.

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Speaker 1: When I was training residents, I would always tell them,

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Speaker 1: just give me your reasoning, make your decision. I won't

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Speaker 1: fault you just as long as you have an evidence.

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Speaker 1: You show me the literature, the published literature that backs

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Speaker 1: up your decision. I don't care if I think it's wrong,

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Speaker 1: I'll I will defend your decision. But if you a

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Speaker 1: don't know what to do, if you've made a mistake,

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Speaker 1: you don't have a backup plant or be say I

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Speaker 1: just did it because I had to do something, I

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Speaker 1: swear to God I will I'll get your license. That

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Speaker 1: is that is the do no harm is our first

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Speaker 1: credo in medicine. And again public health officiers are saying,

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Speaker 1: we just had to do something. That is how you

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Speaker 1: kill people. So I'm deeply concerned with the functioning of

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Speaker 1: our public health departments. I don't understand what happened to them.

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Speaker 1: They've abandoned what we knew know to be effective public

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Speaker 1: health messaging. They're using a sledge hammer as opposed to

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Speaker 1: a scalpel, which is, you know, again, look at where

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Speaker 1: the outbreaks are coming from and shut it down where

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Speaker 1: they're emanating, and then find out what you're doing right

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Speaker 1: in places where it's going well. And then this idea

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Speaker 1: of no risk reward analysis and just doing something just

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Speaker 1: to do something is horrific. It's horrific. That's how you

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Speaker 1: hurt people. So you would argue that the public health

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Speaker 1: officials that are in charge of places like Los Angeles,

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Speaker 1: Chicago and some of these other places where you see

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Speaker 1: cases skyrocketing, they're they're failing the citizens and the residents

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Speaker 1: of those areas. I don't know. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: they're doing. I don't understand what they're doing. I I

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Speaker 1: know that they've got problems and they need to intervene.

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Speaker 1: I understand that. Why don't they even talk about how

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Speaker 1: well it's going in the African American community, why don't

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Speaker 1: they even talk about what's going on in the Hispanic

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Speaker 1: community and try to figure out why why that's going

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Speaker 1: so badly? What is wrong with them? That's what you

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Speaker 1: do in public health, and why are they not really

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Speaker 1: focused on a expanding hospital capacity? That's their job? And

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Speaker 1: then be vaccine distribution. So far, vaccine distribution has been

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Speaker 1: a complete disaster. When when I end with you, I'm

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Speaker 1: calling my hospital and I'm gonna call the staff department

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna find out what is going on with

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Speaker 1: their vaccine distribution because thus far they've sent us some

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Speaker 1: some guidance saying, well, we have a tier system, but

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Speaker 1: we really don't know how much vaccine we're gonna get.

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Speaker 1: We made us rely on a lottery, a lottery for

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Speaker 1: people that are working in the ICU with COVID patients.

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Speaker 1: This is insane department, absolutely, and I want to discuss

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Speaker 1: that further. But let's take a quick break first. Let's

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Speaker 1: stay with us. And you know and you you you

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Speaker 1: mentioned Los Angeles, the numbers in Los Angeles, but it's

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Speaker 1: been reported in terms of African Americans, but it's been

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Speaker 1: reported nationally. The African Americans hadn't done as well. When

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Speaker 1: it comes to COVID. In fact, they had a whole

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Speaker 1: I've had a whole debate which I encourage people to

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Speaker 1: go over to my Instagram at Giano Caldwell. I was

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Speaker 1: on air on election Day out of Chicago. I was

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Speaker 1: on one of the Fox affiliates. In this journalists tried

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Speaker 1: to attack me when I said, hey, you know, folks

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Speaker 1: should just research both candidates, and I mentioned some of

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Speaker 1: the very good things that President Donald Trump has done

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Speaker 1: for the African American community. And I didn't know if

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Speaker 1: he thought he was talking to someone who was an

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Speaker 1: empty suit or couldn't think for themselves. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: what is what his goal was, but he tried to

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Speaker 1: hit me with the fact that African Americans nationally hadn't

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Speaker 1: done as well when it comes to COVID, and he

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Speaker 1: tried he tried to pend that on Donald Trump. Now,

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Speaker 1: my response is underlying health conditions that exist within the

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Speaker 1: African American community which makes them more susceptible to the

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Speaker 1: issue of COVID. Can you speak to that a little

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Speaker 1: bit and that that kind of shut them up, but

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Speaker 1: still in for people to understand. Right, So, so you're

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Speaker 1: talking about diabetes and obesity, right, that's one of them. Rather, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and hypertension and and and those are the

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Speaker 1: things that really, you know, when people go a hight

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Speaker 1: risk for COVID. Here's what makes get risk for COVID

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Speaker 1: advanced age, obesity, metabolic syndrome which includes diabetes and so resistance,

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Speaker 1: and antiphosphilipid center. The people that really do badly have

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Speaker 1: antiphosphilipid syndrome. And and that's it. Oh yes, However, I

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Speaker 1: just read a study that said that African Americans when

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Speaker 1: they get sick, do better than other other races. So

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Speaker 1: for a while there I was hearing they were doing

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Speaker 1: more poorly in terms of adverse outcomes. Now here's a

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Speaker 1: study that says they do better. They're more likely to

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Speaker 1: get it nationally, but apparently more likely to do well.

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Speaker 1: But yes, those do well when they get COVID to

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Speaker 1: recompense what's like to die, I really was their endpoint.

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Speaker 1: But but again I don't know, that's one study. You know,

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Speaker 1: I just surprised me that that was a study that

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Speaker 1: showed up. But but b that as it may. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, and people look at ibet is, obesity and

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Speaker 1: and hypertension in African Americans. They go, this is uh,

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Speaker 1: this is exposing some sort of something, and you can

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Speaker 1: put a label to it, like systemic racism in our

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Speaker 1: healthcare delivery system, and uh yeah, yeah, it's exposing something.

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Speaker 1: We should be doing something about that. But you think

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Speaker 1: that systematic racism that black folks are, you don't know

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Speaker 1: what to call these things until I understand what's going on, right,

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Speaker 1: someone's got to go in and study what is going

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Speaker 1: on now if it is all dietary, and then we

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Speaker 1: can got to analyze why are people making these dietary choices?

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Speaker 1: Is it economic? Is it people are marketing to African Americans?

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Speaker 1: I would argue taking advantage of through marketing strategies for

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Speaker 1: high fat, high corn syrup, high sugar. That's that's that's

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Speaker 1: that's I could put racism in that category. That seems

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Speaker 1: wrong to me. But I don't know if that's what's

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Speaker 1: causing it. I don't know. We have to go look

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Speaker 1: at somebody's got to study it. Yeah, you know. I

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Speaker 1: tend to to push back a bit when people say

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Speaker 1: that it's just systemic racism. When you have the responsibility

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Speaker 1: of taking care of your own body, working out, eating right, exercising,

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Speaker 1: now there's an argument to be made in terms of

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Speaker 1: there being the food deserts in particular communities, poor communities,

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Speaker 1: marginalized communities, black communities. Okay, that's that's a conversation or

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Speaker 1: you know what. By the way, so you know what

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Speaker 1: what you're getting at though, and it's what I'm getting

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Speaker 1: at two, which is I don't know quite what people

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Speaker 1: mean when they say systemic racism. I'd like to be

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Speaker 1: more more accurate, more specific, And then once we zero

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Speaker 1: in on a pinpoint exactly what the issue is, then

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Speaker 1: stand back and ask ourselves, is, hey, is that racism?

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Speaker 1: Is there racism involved in this? And how would we

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Speaker 1: understand that? And I there's at least not you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes not being sensitive to certain communities needs is if

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Speaker 1: you want to call that racism, I'm okay with that. Okay. Now,

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Speaker 1: my my intrigue on that matter is I believe that

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Speaker 1: people apply racism too far too much things that are

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Speaker 1: clearly not racist. People have say the trees, races, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just all kinds of things, and we've not to

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Speaker 1: find our terms right. We don't know what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about anymore. That's what bothers me. I'm a scientist. So

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Speaker 1: you've gotta be very precise with what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: And some people think you're talking about one thing, other

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Speaker 1: people think you're talking about another. So now it's gobbledygoop.

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Speaker 1: Just agree with that. So we we got to be

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Speaker 1: very careful, and I think people um had to be

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Speaker 1: very careful because I no, there's a lot of desire

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Speaker 1: to please the social justice warriors out there, and I'm

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Speaker 1: all for social justice. Let me be clear, I think

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Speaker 1: racism does exist and it's something that has to be

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Speaker 1: stomped out. But at the same time, I've seen politically

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Speaker 1: democrats use the label for the benefit of their elections,

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Speaker 1: and that's what's um. I think just just horrific, a

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Speaker 1: bludgeon or a political tool, and I would argue you're

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Speaker 1: being used when when politicians do that. I got a question.

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Speaker 1: You gotta help me with the term white supremacy. That's

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Speaker 1: another term that's very non specific these days, and I

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Speaker 1: find people are meaning different things. My sense of that

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Speaker 1: got sort of the scales fell from my eyes when

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Speaker 1: I read Frederick Douglas's biography, and in the opening of

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Speaker 1: that biography he gives a speech and I can't I

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Speaker 1: get chills when I think about what an incredible human

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Speaker 1: being that man was, and if we don't we don't

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Speaker 1: we don't teach him enough, humbly. And he was sort

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Speaker 1: of was asked to to give a consecration of this

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Speaker 1: essentially freeing slave monument in Washington. He and he got

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Speaker 1: up and goes, first of all this you know, he

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Speaker 1: just said, like, this is not a this is not

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Speaker 1: our monument. This is this is from a different perspective.

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Speaker 1: This is a perspective of the white person. And you're

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Speaker 1: You're Lincoln, whom you love and who I adore. By

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Speaker 1: the way, I'm a dig Lincoln a file. He went,

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Speaker 1: he was a white supremacist. And I just thought I

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Speaker 1: would It's straight like they cut through me like like

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Speaker 1: some sort of knife. I was like, what's my my

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Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln? And then I started thinking about it. I go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I see what he means. He's talking about Eurocentric perspective

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Speaker 1: on life and that and that the he's asking for

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Speaker 1: a more empathic, attuned look from other people's perspective who

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Speaker 1: are in a mominary group. And and it's stays, I

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Speaker 1: am fine with that assessment of white supremacy, but I

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Speaker 1: don't think people need mean that when they use it anymore,

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Speaker 1: tell me help me. You know, when it comes to

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Speaker 1: a lot of the founders, when we think you think

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Speaker 1: about Abraham Lincoln who freed the slaves, you think about

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Speaker 1: George Washington, who owned slaves. When you think about Thomas

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Speaker 1: Jefferson's and a lot of these individuals who helped to

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Speaker 1: found our country, helped to put our country on a

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Speaker 1: particular footing. It for me, I recognized the fact that

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Speaker 1: these were imperfect men, and I also recognized the fact

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Speaker 1: that what they did in terms of owning slaves and

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Speaker 1: the culture of that moment was absolutely wrong, full stop.

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Speaker 1: And the next question then comes, can you separate the

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Speaker 1: bad that people have done from the good and can

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Speaker 1: you look at those as in two different lenses? You

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Speaker 1: look at Okay, this is positive, Lincoln free the slaves

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Speaker 1: or whatever have you. Can you look at that? And

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Speaker 1: I would argue that you can, And I would say

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Speaker 1: I admire Heidegarian philosophy. And let's be clear, he was

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Speaker 1: a Nazi, you know, and yet his philosophy is has

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Speaker 1: changed the Western lexicon, the continental European lexicon. And I

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Speaker 1: think we can we can separate, you know, the horrible

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Speaker 1: choices that people make in a historical context from their

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Speaker 1: particularly they're written philosophies. And let me say this because

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Speaker 1: I'm before people start calling us both out on this

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Speaker 1: conversation on social media, the media, or whatever the case is.

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Speaker 1: I want to I want to improve my position. I

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Speaker 1: want to I want to make it better, and I

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Speaker 1: think I think that's appropriate. I think there's people who

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Speaker 1: were clearly racist, and that's that was their whole point.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to profit off the work and the back

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Speaker 1: of men who should have been freed and we're stolen

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Speaker 1: from their own country. That those are people who who

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Speaker 1: that was their only incentive. They wanted to profit. And

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Speaker 1: then there were people who did some good things. But

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Speaker 1: I also argue, if we're bringing it to common day,

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Speaker 1: I think Democrats, who oftentimes apply racist labels too pretty

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Speaker 1: much everything that favors them at that moment. I think

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Speaker 1: about somebody like Joe Biden who sponsored and pushed forth

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Speaker 1: their Institutetionarly Races ninety four crime bill, and Democrats clearly

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Speaker 1: see that as a fault, but they're willing to accept

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Speaker 1: him in spite of so if they can separate, certainly

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Speaker 1: there's other areas that can be separated. But I just

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Speaker 1: find it to be such a major hypocrisy when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Republicans who do things wrong. And if you

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Speaker 1: notice Republicans who often they say something racist, they do

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Speaker 1: something racist, oftentimes the party looks to expel those folks

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Speaker 1: versus people like, um, what the Virginia governor, uh, Governor

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Speaker 1: Northam who's still in office, and he has a very

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Speaker 1: questionable history when it comes to race. So these are

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Speaker 1: one of those things where people play political games versus

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Speaker 1: just calling things out for what they should be. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's an issue that that happens in

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Speaker 1: this country. It's okay, well, I'm not gonna call out

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Speaker 1: my side because I don't want to get my side

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Speaker 1: in trouble, but I'm willing to call out the other side.

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Speaker 1: That is deep hypocrisy and that needs to end in

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Speaker 1: this country full stop. H Now, my question for you

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Speaker 1: because you, I mean, you have such a prolific career,

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Speaker 1: uh in terms of just medicine, as you mentioned you

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Speaker 1: were in turnings or you are one, You've been a doctor,

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Speaker 1: You've the love Line was started in nine four and

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Speaker 1: ended in twos sixteen, and your your syndicated radio talk

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Speaker 1: show Dr Drew and call on hl n UM Life

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Speaker 1: Changes on the CW. We go to Celebrity Rehab with

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Speaker 1: Dr Drew, Sex Rehab with Dr Drew, which I'm sure

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Speaker 1: was quite an interesting experience, and the list goes on

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Speaker 1: and all your master at media and being able to

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Speaker 1: disseminate a message of a high caliber and do it

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Speaker 1: in a simplistic way that people can understand. What sparked

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Speaker 1: your interest in Madison? Madison to begin with medicine? I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: you know, I come from a medical family, and it

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Speaker 1: was always sort of assumed, Oh, you're gonna be like

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Speaker 1: your dad, blah blah blah. And then when I got

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Speaker 1: to college, I was like, well, I'm not up for this.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to do this. And I kind of

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Speaker 1: fished around for about it a couple of years, and

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Speaker 1: then I came back. I thought, you know, I really

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Speaker 1: missed the sciences, and just the idea of going back

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Speaker 1: into some sort of more rigorous training kind of made

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Speaker 1: me feel better. And so I started going down that path.

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Speaker 1: And I was just telling my son this morning that

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Speaker 1: I would walk out in the parking lot. I remember

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Speaker 1: every day after anatomy lab at the end of my

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Speaker 1: first year, you know, each day at the end of

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Speaker 1: first year classes and I would just get my car

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Speaker 1: and just go, oh my god, I'm so glad I'm

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Speaker 1: doing this. It is so exciting that such important material

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait to get into the wards. It just

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Speaker 1: it just was in me and so I because it

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Speaker 1: was more of a calling and and it was a

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Speaker 1: deep interest as a scientist too. Um. It's something that

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Speaker 1: I'm just really grateful I did, and it was something

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Speaker 1: I did essentially overdid for about twenty fifteen years. I

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Speaker 1: sort of crammed three careers into one where I was

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Speaker 1: running medical services in a psychiatric hospital. I was doing

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Speaker 1: inpatient and outpatient general medicine, and then ended up running

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Speaker 1: addiction services for a large psychiatric hospital. And that was

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Speaker 1: a lot. That was a lot, and and it gave

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Speaker 1: me a perspective on the human experien arians in medicine

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Speaker 1: that almost nobody gets anymore. So I've been spending the

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Speaker 1: last few years trying to just give that back because

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Speaker 1: I just like, no one has this perspective that I have.

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Speaker 1: And and you oftentimes dealt with those who were battling

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Speaker 1: with addiction, but you also under understanding from a much

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Speaker 1: different lens. And I say that because from the age

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Speaker 1: of about eight years old into my twenties, my mom

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Speaker 1: was addicted to crack, cocaine and other drunks. And for me,

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Speaker 1: even though I'm now thirty three, December twenty seven, i'll

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Speaker 1: be thirty four years old, it's still something that I

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00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: deal with the issues of my mom abandoning me and

429
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: my other siblings as a as a youngster, and she

430
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 1: gave custody of me and my siblings to her mother.

431
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: At the time, she was a private duty nurse. And

432
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 1: then she pulls out the garage one day she gets

433
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: hit by a drunk driver, injured her back, and she

434
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: can no longer work. So we lived that must have

435
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: sent her down an obiit pass well, no, no, no, no,

436
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: that that was my grand That was my grandmother. So

437
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: my mother gave her custody of me and my siblings

438
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 1: to my grandmother, and my grandmother was doing fine at

439
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: that at one point, but then she got into a

440
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: car accident to a drunk driver hit her and she

441
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 1: could no longer work. So what it ultimately did is

442
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: set us on a path of poverty and government assistance.

443
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: And as one who has had to deal with this

444
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: issue because I had, like an absent mom had for

445
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: many years. It would be times where I would see

446
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: her for one day, she would pop up on us

447
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: for a day, maybe she'll stick around for two and

448
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 1: then she'll be gone for nine months, a year or

449
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 1: even more than that. And it was such a horrific

450
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: experience for us, and it remains for a lot of

451
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: my siblings that way, because they feel as though, although

452
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,959
Speaker 1: we're pretty much all adults now except for maybe one

453
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: or two of my siblings, is nine of us, she

454
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: had a bunch of bunch of kids. It feels like

455
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: a lot of us are still dealing with the emotional

456
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 1: trauma of abandonment, not having an active mother present. And

457
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: then some of them kind of got off into drugs

458
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: themselves and and and crime. Not to the degree that

459
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: she did in terms of the drugs, but it's still

460
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: one that harms um our family to this day, and

461
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: it's one in which I've I've already began counseling a

462
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: long time ago to kind of move on from that,

463
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: because it impacted my relationships with women, being in a relationship, dating,

464
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: all those different things, and you know, some of my

465
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: other stories, Um, you know some of my other stories.

466
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: So it just and it compounds all of those different things,

467
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: and it's like, how do you deal with families that

468
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: are dealing with those issues that the epidemic of. Um,

469
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: these are massive, massive topics. So so let's just first

470
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: deal with your romantic misadventures. When you have a traumatic

471
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,239
Speaker 1: relationship with a parent, it it sets a kind of

472
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: an attachment and what some people call a love map

473
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: that makes you incredibly attracted to people and places even

474
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: though they don't look like it to you emotionally. On

475
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: some level, you know are constructed and are just like

476
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 1: mom in some fashion, you'll be super attracted to people

477
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: with those qualities, like just for instance, sort of the

478
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: the common trope of you know, a young lady with

479
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: an abandoning father is magically attracted to guys that abandoned her,

480
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: and we just and it's called a traumatic reenactment traumas

481
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: of childhood. We reenact, particularly in our romantic relationships, but

482
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: no one ever examines really how they get set up.

483
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: It really gets set up through attractions where we become variant.

484
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: You mentioned that sex addiction show I did, and that's

485
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: what that was all about. People that had a high

486
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: degree of trauma and childhood then re enacting the trauma

487
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: over and over and over again in their adult life

488
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: and not understanding the sort of pathways that we're setting

489
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: it up. So that's one of the manifestations of childhood

490
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: trauma uma. The other is, you know, physical abuse, abandonment.

491
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: All that stuff changes the wiring of our nervous system.

492
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: It makes us to have difficulty in regulating our emotions.

493
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 1: If you then also have the genetic potential for addiction,

494
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: and let's be fair, addiction is a genetic disorder accounted

495
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: for on the basis of genetics. On the basis of

496
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: genetics alone, but if you have trauma and the genetic potential,

497
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: that's rocket fuel for addiction. That that's how you because

498
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: people are unregulated, have to reach outside of themselves to regulate,

499
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: and then you trigger addiction. They have two problems, trauma

500
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: and addiction. And then the third issue you're bringing up,

501
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: which is the more profound one, not that these other

502
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: things aren't profound too, but this is the really profound

503
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: thing that we struggle with, which is the intergenerational transmission

504
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: of trauma, which is something that unfortunately is sort of ignored,

505
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: really ignored by politicians, and something that we have to

506
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: come to terms with in this country because it's having

507
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: it's really the reason we're in all the mess we're

508
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: in right now. So per your analysis, right now, I'm

509
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: attracted to, or rather it's some way shape or form

510
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: could be attracted to women who in some way reminds

511
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: me of my mother. So not remind you of your mother,

512
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: but but is put that the the romantic entanglement is

513
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: put together in such a way that those old mechanisms

514
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: are reactuated. So that's what happens in therapy. What happens

515
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: in therapy is you, over time will form a healthy

516
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: attachment to the therapist and then helpfully now go out

517
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: in the world and use those sorts of attachments as

518
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: your templates for romantic choices. As it is now what

519
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: people with trauma and abandonment use. They use intensity. They

520
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: confuse intensity for love, and intensity is the problem you

521
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: have to avoid, well, not avoid, but you have to

522
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: recognize intensity. We always tell trauma survivors that are making

523
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: recurrent romantic choices that are end up being traumatic enactments.

524
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: Think butterflies, not lightning bolts. Butterflies not lightning bolts, and

525
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: you won't be able to do that if you've not

526
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: had therapy, you'll you'll keep making the same choice. Therapy

527
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: again disentangles that and brings your attachment into the therapist

528
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: that that rewires the templates in your head. Let's put

529
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: it that way. Huh. I never thought about it that way.

530
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: Let's continue from there in a moment right after we

531
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: take a quick break. When you say that, I think

532
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: about a scenario that took place in my life some

533
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: years ago, and you you know about this personally. So

534
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: about seven years ago, almost eight years ago, I've been single,

535
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: and I've been single because I had fell in love

536
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: with a young lady who was outstandingly beautiful. She seemingly

537
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: was very into God and church. And it's been a

538
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: great deal of time together because I want a woman

539
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: that to believe her Christian and she was very hungry

540
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: to improve herself, and we spent a great deal of

541
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: time together, and things just begin to feel very unsettled,

542
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: and I couldn't figure out what was going on why

543
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: it felt so unsettled. So I ended up getting onto

544
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: a smartphone somehow and and being able to see the

545
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: contents of it while I was away on a business trip,

546
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: and what I discovered is this woman was a secret

547
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: escort and she was dealing with some of the most

548
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: powerful people in the country. And as you can imagine,

549
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: I was completely and totally heartbroken. I couldn't trust anyone.

550
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: I couldn't trust any woman. But in that case, I

551
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: just couldn't figure out what to do until I went

552
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: to counseling and things became better, because at one point

553
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: it seemed like I was just kind of pushing all

554
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: the attention away for me, you know, women who wanted

555
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: to date me and women that I was actually I

556
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: found attractive, but I was kind of pushing it away,

557
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: and I began to feel and think, was I commitment? Folk?

558
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: I come to the realization that I'm not a commitment folbe,

559
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: but the very real possibility of me becoming one, I think,

560
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: was present. Well, what what happens again, This is sort

561
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: of the typical pattern is that people with that I

562
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: mean first starts of all, you you avoiding intimacy at

563
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: that point with sort of a self preservation movement as

564
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: a reasonable thing. But what happens is the typical pattern

565
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: is that people will sabotage real relationships or just not

566
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: be interested in them and have lightning bolts for these

567
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: people that they shouldn't be involved with, and then get

568
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: re traumatized by them, re traumatized and you you see

569
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: that and relationships, romantic and other relationships. The love line was,

570
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: the love line was, every call was, you know, pointing

571
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: out these patterns to people. So so the recommendation from

572
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: you for people who have dealt with those very dramatic

573
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: situations is to go get with the therapists and you

574
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: can be here. Recommendation is to take yourself by the

575
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: hand and see if you what it's like to get

576
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: involved with somebody that you don't have an intense attraction for,

577
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: that you just have sort of a mild attraction for

578
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: again butterflies, not lightning bolts, and see what that relationship

579
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: feels like. And if you sabotage it or get bored

580
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: with it or pull away from it, you have your answer,

581
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: because then that's that could have been a relationship that

582
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: you are sabotaging and you can't tolerate. You have an

583
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: intimacy disorder at that point, and that needs to be treated.

584
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: It can be treated quite readily, intimacy. But here's the thing.

585
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: You said, just a mild attraction to aren't we all

586
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: looking for the best looking person and as the best

587
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: qualities we can be attracted to, not necessarily I mean,

588
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: and by the way, that means very different things to

589
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: different people, And so you know it's you'd be surprised

590
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: as you do this work what you're attracted to changes markedly.

591
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about one of these cases you experienced.

592
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: It was a tough case and you you ended up

593
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: getting the person on the right track? Well, I mean,

594
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: one that thing people can can watch is um we

595
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: in the Sex of It and show. It's funny that

596
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: we're talking about. That show was just one of the

597
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,719
Speaker 1: shows we did. But we treated a porn star. Her

598
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: name in the porn industry was Penny Flame we knew,

599
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: or Jennifer Ketchum. And what you will see is and

600
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: she came in. She had no intention of getting treatment.

601
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: It turned out she had a she had all kinds

602
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: of stuff going on and she didn't really realize any

603
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: of it. But we got through to her right away

604
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: by calling her Jennifer Jenny. No one had called and

605
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: they've been calling her Penny for the last ten years.

606
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: And this was a pseudo self that she was living

607
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: in and we just cut through that and said, no,

608
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: I want to I want to use know Jennifer, and

609
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: she started dropping some of the bullshit and you will

610
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: see her go through the process of really sex addiction

611
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: treatment at that point, but ultimately stayed with therapy for

612
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: quite some time after we did the acute treatment, realized

613
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: she had a cocaine and cannabis problem also, and got

614
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: into recovery from that. And now she is a really

615
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: talented social worker married with a yeah social worker, yeah,

616
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: how her therapist, she's a therapist, and she has a

617
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: child that she has a stable relationship with somebody she loves.

618
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: And she had severe intimacy problems, severe and lots of

619
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: similar trauma as to what you're describing. Lots of stuff

620
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: with the dad with cocaine and the mom abandoning the

621
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: kids and the whole thing. Usual stuff. These are these

622
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: are common stories that we have to get much more

623
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: realistic about their impact. And how long did it take

624
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: for her to to get on track to to that degree?

625
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: It was the years? Was it years? I mean it

626
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: was years, but it wasn't decades. I mean at end

627
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: of a decade, she was a social worker, you know,

628
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: and she I'd say, I'd say five to seven years.

629
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: She was well in hand. She was well in hand. Wow, Okay,

630
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: well switching gears because I know you you. You have

631
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: to get out of here shortly. The show wouldn't be

632
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: complete without at least gazing the field of politics. What

633
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: is your impression of the outcome of the election in

634
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: the current state of things? I am my my My

635
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: fundamental position when I just examine my feelings are that

636
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: I'm I'm tired. I'm just so tired of the weird

637
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: negativity and the Trump derangement syndrome. And I'm just so tired.

638
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: I'm tired. Mr Trump makes me tired to some of

639
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: the things he's played. You're not the only one, but

640
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,479
Speaker 1: so so. I'm happy to see things settled down. How

641
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: they settle down. I almost don't have a I don't

642
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: have an opinion. I'm just glad they're settling down. We've

643
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: exposed some things about ourselves in the process of all this,

644
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: and we did take a very good look at ourselves.

645
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: We've been behaving like the mobs during the French Revolution.

646
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: There's a certain I'm going to reread I just got

647
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: out of affect them in the room where I'm gonna

648
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: pull the book out right now, Notes from the Underground

649
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: by Dostoevsky. Because everyone has become like that main character

650
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: in that, in that, in that, in that novel, and

651
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what that means. We have to start, you know,

652
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: this is pertinent to this conversation. We have to become empathic.

653
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 1: We have to stop acting out envy. We we have

654
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: to change because it's we're behaving like the mobs during

655
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: the French Revolution and pulling out the guillotines for every

656
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: little thing that it's ridiculous. And so we'll see and

657
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: you think the Trump the arrangement syndrome, that's that. And

658
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that, but that's

659
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: like a a real thing for It's not a ds

660
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: M five, you know category, but a boy. You sure

661
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: see it everywhere. And because I don't have it, I

662
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 1: don't have any. I'm a very middle of the road

663
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 1: moderate if if anything, I lean libertarian. But I see

664
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 1: the craziness on both sides, and so it's really easy

665
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: for me to call it out because I see it,

666
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: I see it operating. It's like you're this is any

667
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: and these it's it's what we used to call neuroticism.

668
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: We have to we have to we have to get

669
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: much more critical in our thoughts. We have to recognize

670
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: envy where it's corrosive. We have to be more empathic,

671
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: and we have to be more thoughtful and not so hysterical.

672
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: I mean, look with the COVID thing is another part

673
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: of that. We started talking about that. That's another that's

674
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: another derangement syndrome that we have. And uh, it needs

675
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 1: to change. We need to change. We need to get

676
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: ahold of ourselves and we need to you know, go

677
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: back to the golden rule, go back to communities, go

678
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: back to our family and relationships and all the good

679
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: stuff you and I were talking about. You know, we

680
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: need to function better in our relationships. And if we

681
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: have trauma and it's been delivered to it. I've had

682
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: trauma for my parents. You know, there's a lot of

683
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: intergenerational trauma. You know, my family escaped the Ukrainian genocide,

684
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: and uh, and that stuff gets transmitted to you. It

685
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: just gets through to you and you have to be

686
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: aware of it and you have to deal with it.

687
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: And on a final note from Dr Drew, have more

688
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: empathy and I appreciate that. And for folks who may

689
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: be interested in knowing my mom is doing well. She's

690
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: no longer on drugs and she now works in the

691
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: in the health care field caring for people who were

692
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: in similar situation. Is like her. But at the same

693
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: time the kind of people that I keeps me working

694
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: every day. These recoveries are miraculous, but you have to

695
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: recover too. She was very sick when you were a child,

696
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: and that illness not your mom, the illness had an

697
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: impact on you. Well. I look forward to doing counseling

698
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: sessions with you, doctor we end up writing together. As

699
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: we've just I'll pull the curtain back a little bit.

700
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: We've talked a little bit about. Trust me, those are

701
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: extremely emotional and very therapeutic sessions when we really get

702
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: deep into writing the writing process. Listen, I'm all game,

703
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: and I want to thank you so much for coming

704
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: on out loud with Gianno Caswell. And we certainly appreciate

705
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: your very logical and research based opinion. No conspiracy theories here.

706
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: So for folks who may want to listen to this,

707
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: you know you've got folks. We got democrats that listen

708
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: in some left wing publications. They love to drum up

709
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: some some hates. So for those who are listening this

710
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: fave base I am or something I said, here's my approach.

711
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: If I stepped on a landmine somewhere, please help me

712
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: do a better job. I want to do better. And

713
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: if if my mind needs to be changed about something,

714
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: I want my mind to be changed. I don't want

715
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: to sit in a silo and here an echo. I

716
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: would love to grow and expand my view of things.

717
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: So please, if anybody takes issue with any of these

718
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: things I love, but but don't don't use envy and

719
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: aggression as a way of feeding back. Just give me

720
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: the feedback and that will change my mind. You know,

721
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: we say to our kids, I can't hear you when

722
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: you talk like that. It's hard to hear people when

723
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: they're being aggressive and envious. Just just just tell me

724
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: how I can do a better job, and I'm all

725
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: for it. Dr Drew. Everyone is when we have the collapse.

726
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: We don't have the radio technology. But I want to

727
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: thank you for coming to out low with Gianno called

728
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: Will has certainly been a pleasure. Dr Drew privileges mine

729
00:38:48,520 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: will talk. So thank you to Dr Drew for a

730
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: great interview. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us

731
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: a review and rate us with five stars on Apple Podcast.

732
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: If you have any questions for me, please email me

733
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: at out Loud at ginger Street sixty dot com and

734
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: I'll try to answer them in our future episodes. You

735
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: can also follow me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and parlor

736
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: at Giano Caldwell. And if you're interested in learning more

737
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: about my story, please pick up a copy of my

738
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: best selling book title Taken for Granted, How Conservatism Can

739
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: Win back to Americans that liberalism failed. Special things to

740
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: our producers Stephen Calabria, researcher Aaron Klingman, and executive producers

741
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,479
Speaker 1: Debbie Myers and of course speaker New Gingridge all part

742
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: of the Gingridge three sixty Network, part of the gainer

743
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: Street sixty Network