1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: represent my own. And nothing contained in this show should 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. You know, I thought, 10 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: as we're coming to the end of season two of 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: Psychoactive and not knowing really for sure what lies up ahead, 12 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: I was thinking about the sort of folks I'd most 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: want to have on before we conclude the second season, 14 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: and one of those is my friend Paul Gudenberg. He 15 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: is probably one of the two leading deans of drug 16 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: history studies. I mean, Paul has been uh he's been 17 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: a professor at Sunny State University of New York, Stony 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: Brook for many, many years. He's just a former Rhodes scholar. Um. 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: You know. He started off his historical stuff writing about birdship, 20 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: a k a guano and you know that, the commerce 21 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: and guano. But he moved from there into the field 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: of coca studies cocaine cocaine. Roughly thirty years ago he 23 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: wrote a book that might be regarded as kind of 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: a biography of cocaine cocaine. But he's now currently chairing 25 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: the association the Drug and Alcohol Historians Society. Uh. He 26 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: recently edited a seven hundred page edited volume of the 27 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: Oxford Handbook of Global Drug History. Um. You know, he 28 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: just helped organize a meeting in Mexico City where I 29 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: was at last June. Was one of my first encounters 30 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: with this order world. So Paul, I want to thank 31 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: you ever so much for joining me and my listeners 32 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: on Psychoactive. Oh it's a pleasure, Easan. So let me 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: just say just also speaking personally, you know, I realized 34 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: I've been looking back at the episodes of Psychoactive and 35 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: quite a number have been on history. Some have been 36 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: on different drugs like alcohol or or cava. Some have 37 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: been about the history of certain countries like Iran or Mexico. 38 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 1: Some have been about more you know, middle twentieth century histories, 39 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: like on drugs and jazz and the narcotic farms that 40 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: um that Nancy Campbell talked about. So history really is 41 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: a kind of favorite of mine and my true confessions here. 42 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: You know, when I was eight years old, I told 43 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: people what I wanted to be when I grew up 44 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: with a history professor. So for me, looking at the 45 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: history of drugs, even though it may feel kind of 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: obscure to many people, just seems incredibly rich. And it's 47 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: part of why I felt this a kinship with you 48 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: over all these you know, years and even decades. So 49 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: let me just start off, um by by asking this 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: this basic question. When you made that evolution right thirty 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: I years ago, from your early work on guano to 52 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: looking at coca, what was it that stimulated you? Was 53 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: it the commodities market element of this, or was there 54 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: something bigger than that? Or did you have your own 55 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: personal reason, as I did in some respects for being 56 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: interested in psychoactive drugs To some extent there was a 57 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: personal issue in the sense that maybe a little bit 58 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: more than yourself. I was a you know, child of 59 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: the sixties, so what I was growing up, the issues 60 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: and the questions around illicit drugs were very much in 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: the air. Um, and um kind of resurfaced with me 62 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: in the Es as I began to search around for 63 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: new topics of investigation. But how I felt into drugs 64 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: was quite easy at the time, which was I had 65 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: been kind of proven my way as economic historian of 66 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: the Andes, University of Chicago, pedigree, um, you know, all 67 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: all the stuff, interdisciplinarity, and I was looking for a 68 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: new topic to work on. And this was in the 69 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: early nineties. And I a friend of mine who had 70 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: been working as a journalist in the Andes said that 71 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: they've been working this was the contemporary explosion of cocaine 72 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: in the Amazon, andyes, at that time, in the Waiaga Valley, 73 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: and she told me, there's really nothing written about the 74 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: history of this stuff. This might be interesting to you. 75 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: And so, you know, I started poking around, and well, 76 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: and behold, it really was interesting. It was interesting because 77 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: it was a whole new unknown where if you had art, 78 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, new archival work to do, and new facts 79 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: to establish and new perspectives to bring in. There was 80 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: just a tremendously open field. And it was exciting in 81 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: a way because you know, drugs are, let's face it, 82 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: they're an exciting and sexy topic and they have a 83 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: lot of um repercussions for how we think about the 84 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: world today. And contrary to what maybe a lot of 85 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: people think about historians, most historians are motivated by questions 86 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: that are in the zeitgeist today. And by the n nineties, 87 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: the you know, global drug regimes and the failures, the violence, um, 88 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: the scope, the global scope of a drug like cocaine 89 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 1: was pretty much everywhere. So I began to be interested 90 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: in his origins. But I do want to say one 91 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: other thing, which is what particularly attracted me to doing 92 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: drug history. And there were a few already established figures 93 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 1: in the field like David Corbright who or Musto people 94 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: we could we could talk about. Um. What really fascinated 95 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 1: me about this was all the learning that you could 96 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: do because it is so um cross disciplinary. There's so 97 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: much trespassing to be had in studying something like drugs, 98 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: because I mean, as you alluded to, there's this very 99 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: strong kind of traditional anthropological interest in shamanism and drugs 100 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: and taboos and non taboo substances. There was commodity studies, 101 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: which is something I was familiar with, but there was 102 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: a rising new variety of commodity studies about the social 103 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: constructions and the meanings that objects and substances have. There's 104 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: medical history and the history of medicine, which was at 105 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: that time beginning to take a highly a more critical 106 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: turn than it had in the past. That is, looking 107 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: at medicine um and its products as a kind of 108 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: a uh an object rather than a methodology. And history 109 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: just across the board. Sociologists, political scientists like yourself, legal scholars, 110 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: so many different angles to draw on in thinking about 111 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: this this issue of you know, where to our contemporary 112 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: entanglements would drugs come from? And even basic questions that 113 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: continue to I wouldn't say plagued the field, but animate 114 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: the field, which is what are drugs? And so just 115 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: the important work here in the United States um by 116 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: court Right wasn't two thousand one, which was published by 117 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: Harvard University Press, which was Forces of Habit Drugs in 118 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: the Making of the Modern Rule, And that's where he 119 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: coins the term the psychoactive revolution. Right, the psychoactive Revolution, 120 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: And in many ways court Rights book, they're his synthesis 121 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: there is to take a global view and a long 122 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: historical view of many many drugs and drug like substances 123 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: and follow them through centuries and waves of of origins 124 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: and consumption and try to trace out what is the 125 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: big question in drug history. I do certain drugs spread globally? 126 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: Why does certain drugs become legitimized? Why does certain drugs 127 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: become illegitimized and then criminalized? So he was asking huge questions, 128 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: and the most interesting way is the way it begins 129 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: with this notion of the psychoactive revolution. And basically what 130 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: corp right Um proposes and I think is something that 131 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: really animated this larger community of people who work on drugs, 132 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: which is hundreds of historians today, is that drugs we're 133 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: actually quite important in the constitution of modernity as we 134 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: think of it today. Starting in the sixteenth century, all 135 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: types of stimulants began to flow together and reach first 136 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: Europeans and then Middle Easterners and Asians and North Americans, 137 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: and they began to be part of our kind of 138 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: integral lifestyles, everything from coffee to tobacco um and then 139 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: later things like you know, coca cola or opiates or 140 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: or for that matter, right becoming chocolate and one can 141 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: even look at sugar, right, and the work on sugar 142 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: that was very important in kind of also shaping the 143 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: history of drugs with Sydney Mintz's Sweetness and Power, which 144 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: gave I don't know if you've read that, but it's 145 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: a historical anthropology of of sugar UM around the same period, 146 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: which UM really set the stage for global thinking about 147 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: how consumption regimes and political regimes are closely related. And 148 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: UM sucros wasn't many ways treated as a a drug 149 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: in Sydney Mintz's terms, but court Right's book The Notion 150 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: of the Psychoactive Revolution the notion of asking deep historical 151 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: questions about UM, why drugs read, why some drugs don't spread, 152 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: why they become legitimate by state building processes later by 153 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: the eighteenth and nineteen centuries. Why is rum part of 154 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: the British Empire? Um? Why does cannabis never um reach 155 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: that kind of state nexus. He was asking big questions 156 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: and giving well founded historical answers to them. Are they 157 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: all correct or I agree with them all? No, But 158 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: he was opening, you know, the big canvas on UM 159 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: on doing serious drug history, and I still think it 160 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: remains one of the best books that anyone's interested in 161 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: kind of the history of drugs can look well, you know, 162 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: Paul d' reminding me here, right, is there probably the 163 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: article I wrote in my professorial days in the late 164 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: eighties early nineties, they garnered the greatest sort of respect, 165 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: and maybe not actually at the time. It's more headlong 166 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: lay of the last few decades was a piece I 167 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: wrote called Global Prohibition Regimes, subtitled the Evolution of Norms 168 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: International Society. And I wrote that in late nineteen eighties. 169 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: And what drove it was it was even stepping even 170 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: one step further back than court, right, It was asking 171 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: the question two questions really, One was how and why 172 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: is it that certain activities that at some point in 173 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: history are regarded as entirely legal or at least not 174 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: illegal all around the world substantly become criminalized throughout the world, 175 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: and not just criminalized throughout the world, but become the 176 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: subject of what I coined global global prohibition regimes. And 177 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: so when I start off with drugs and look backwards 178 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: and forwards and looking backwards, the first one that hit 179 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: me was basically, you know piracy and privateering, right, which 180 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: at one point our privateering is essentially licensed legal piracy, 181 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: and at some point they become the subject of the 182 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: first kind of global prohibition regime. The second one was 183 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: the prohibition of the global trade of global slave trade, 184 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: and then slavery itself, right, which really emerges in the 185 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: late you know, I mean only eighteenth century, then obviously 186 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: well into the nineteenth century, with the United States being 187 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: one of the last of of of of major countries 188 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: to ban slavery, at least in the western world, right. 189 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: And then it's followed by a kind of aborded efforts 190 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: to have an alcohol prohibition regime, a probition regime directed 191 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: at white slavery, which was the term for a for 192 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: a prostitution and the movement of women for purposes of 193 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: prostitution across borders. And then I jumped it forward to 194 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: the emerging regimes, global regimes that banning the killing of 195 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: elephants and whales and intelligence species, as well as other 196 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: types of activities. And then the second question I asked 197 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: was why is it that some of these global prohibition regimes, 198 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,119 Speaker 1: you know, result and basically almost abolishing or getting eliminating 199 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: the activity at which they were targeted, whereas others utterly fail. So, 200 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: for example, the probition regimes directed at piracy more or less, 201 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: becomes largely successful except for little pockets of piracy you 202 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: know around you know, parts of Asia, Africa. The regime 203 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: criminalizing prohibiting slavery in the slave trade also becomes largely successful. 204 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: Where is the one against drugs, you know, utterly fails 205 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: right where you have a bigger markets probably existing per 206 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: capita um after the institution of the Global Provision Regime 207 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: than before. Now, one of my main arguments there was 208 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: that moral factors, it's not just all about economics and 209 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: security and politics, that there was actually a transnorm you know, 210 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: transnational moral dimension. And I argued that in fact, they 211 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: played very important roles, that there was a moralizing, paternalizing 212 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 1: um element to what happened in all of these regimes 213 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: that cannot be discounted um. And then the question about 214 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: why drugs failed, I mean, part of that had to 215 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: do with how susceptible the activities were to suppression. Right 216 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: that ultimately, you know, the emergency steamboats, uh, you know, 217 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 1: and some other factors makes piracy much less by a 218 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: ball on, you know, the factors with slavery I won't 219 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: go into, but that with drugs, you know, these things 220 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: were so easily trafficked and so easily in such small 221 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: amounts that it was no way to essentially suppress all 222 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: of this. But I also looked at the question of 223 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: technological developments, right, So, for example, the emergence of the 224 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: hypod during syringe in the middle of the nineteenth century 225 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: transforms the the notion of taking opioids, for example, the 226 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: emergence of morphine, the emergence of of cocaine being taken 227 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: in in in in those ways. In a very different way, 228 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: the emergence of the cigarette rolling machine, I think in 229 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century transforms the nature of tobacco consumption 230 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: around the world. And so when you look when we 231 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: look across the board, I sometimes wonder, like, if you 232 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: look at coca cocaine versus coffee, how much did their 233 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: different evolutions have to do with the potential of those 234 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: substances to be synthesized into something much more potent. For example, 235 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: the fact that coffee, you know, never emerges as you 236 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: know caffeine and taking in it. It's never becomes an 237 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: injectable or stormable drug in the way that coca ultimately 238 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: doesn't get, you know, transmitted all around the world. It's 239 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: when it becomes cocaine that it becomes a more global commodity. Um. 240 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: You know, if if coca, if if cocky coffee had 241 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: emerged in other way, what might this history have been different. 242 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: So when you look at the technological element of of 243 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: why these things emerged and why they're prohibited or not, 244 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: what else pops out at you about all of that? Well, 245 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: I mean you've set a lot there, and I do 246 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: like your work on regimes. I have to say that 247 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: as a historian I was always borrowing from social scientists, 248 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: and especially you and Peter Andreas critical scientists. I admire 249 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: very much at Brown. But for example, some of the 250 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: issues that you're talking about remind me of the earlier 251 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: work of of Wolf Gong Chivels, who is I believe 252 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: chivil Bush is still alive, a European thinker. You know, 253 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: we don't have many of those left these days. Who 254 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: has written books on big subjects for a long time, 255 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: including speed and locomotives and lights and wars. And one 256 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: of his most influential books I found it was a 257 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: book that was published in German in the early eighties 258 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: called in the English version was called Tastes of Paradise, 259 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: A Social History of Spices stimulants and intoxicants. Whenever I 260 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: teach a course about drugs, I actually always begin with 261 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: shivil Bush because he gives you a way of thinking 262 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: about these shifts and that some of the technology technologies 263 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: that are involved in the things that he called the 264 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: intensification or acceleration of the drug experience. So he begins 265 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: with these imaginary drug experiences of say, what what we 266 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: call spices today, and through the impact of tobacco and 267 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: the impact of coffee, um up through the impact of 268 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: opium on European societies. It's a very European. But there 269 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: you already have these concepts about the acceleration and intensification 270 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: of drugs. And yes, you'll hear this every and everyday conversations. 271 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: You'll hear I was in a conversation with somebody the 272 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: other day yesterday night, in a hysterical mode, said to me, oh, 273 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: but the drugs today are just so much more powerful. 274 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: The pot kids are smoking today is just doesn't compare 275 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: to the the nickel weed we had when we were kids. 276 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: So there's always this continuing acceleration, which is of course 277 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: um in some ways. And this I think Court right 278 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: elaborated on. This is somehow is it some ways? You know, 279 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 1: it has an elective affinity, to use Vapor's term with capitalism. 280 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: As capitalism speeds up our everyday lives and consumption becomes 281 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: more and more speeded and needed, especially stimulant become part 282 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: of everyday lives. The acceleration process takes on a life 283 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: of its own, so drugs do become more powerful. A 284 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: great example of that is an alcohol. Alcohol used to 285 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: be very low grade. You know, you could only get 286 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: seven or eight percent naturally at most and beers, most 287 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: beers around the world where one or two percent, and wines, 288 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, eleven or twelve percent. But come the seventeenth 289 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: and eighteenth century, with new distilling techniques in the nineteenth century, 290 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: you can make whiskeys and beyond that are just basically 291 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: low alcohol. And that creates social problems in its way 292 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: that you know, lighter substances did not in themselves entail. 293 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: So I should interrupt your You're you're reminding me of 294 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: two things here. One is it I remember when I 295 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: first read the Chivel Dish book. In that book became 296 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,679 Speaker 1: very popular among my you know, friends who are all 297 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: interested in kind of the sociology of drugs and of 298 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: thinking about drugs. But the thing that mosted out for 299 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: me was the way he talked about spices playing a 300 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: kind of psychoactive role in in the Middle Ages, and 301 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, because that was a period when you didn't 302 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: have coffee, you didn't have tobacco, only against the Europe 303 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: in the sixteen hundreds, uh, And spices play a range 304 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: of roles um in terms of you know, I mean, 305 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: they cover over the way people smell, they help with 306 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: food when it food is not very interesting. But also 307 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: there was the psychoactive element to that, and a lot 308 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: of the writing about spices sounds like the way people 309 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: write about psychoactive drugs in more contemporary times. What I 310 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: would say about about Silvia Bush, whether he was doing 311 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: this consciously or not, is that he was articulating historically 312 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: what we call today set and setting um that is 313 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: the impact of stimulants. Let's call the matter and toxic ins, 314 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: which is today one of the broader terms is coming 315 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: in has a lot to do with the environments that 316 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: we're in. A coffee house or um, you know, a 317 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: gin gin house has a lot to do with how 318 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: we imagine them to be. So the point of starting 319 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: with paradise was that these lux new luxury goods of 320 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: the you know, late Middle Ages that were coming into 321 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: Europe were loaded with meanings, and these meanings created sensations 322 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: in their consumers. And that that is very similar to 323 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: the processes that began to be attached in his view, 324 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: to other exotic substances later, like coca uh, not not coca, 325 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: but cocao, chocolate, um, tobacco, coffee, and so on. So 326 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: it is this idea of the kind of what anthropologists 327 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: and psychologists called the social construction of drugs um that 328 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 1: is a kind of a true social construction of drugs, 329 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: and that book is excellent and sort of like introducing 330 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: that idea without the jargon. We'll be talking more after 331 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: we hear this ad many of our audience will now 332 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: be familiar with the phrase drug set and setting. But 333 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: that's the phrase that's really kind of coined by Timothy Leary, 334 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: the Harvard psychology professor, oh and n LSD guru Um 335 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: to describe, you know, drug is one thing that impacts 336 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: your psychoactive experience, but the other two or the drug, 337 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: what exactly is the drug and the formulas you're taking it? 338 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: Is it a stimulant, it is a downer? Is it 339 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: a tranquilizer? As well as are you injecting it or 340 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: smoking it, or eating it or drinking it? And then 341 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: the setting, which is to some extent what you and 342 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: the broader culture expect this drug experience to be like, 343 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: and Leary coins that phrase, I think in the late 344 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: fifties early sixties. Then Andy Wile Andrew Wild who was 345 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: my very first guest on psychoactive he develops it in 346 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: his book The Natural Mind, which is a wonderful book 347 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: now fifty years old, about why people and individuals use 348 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: psychoactive drugs. And then Norman Zenberg, who was the Harvard 349 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: Medical School professor, develops it in a research study in 350 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: a book called Drug Set and Setting. So I think 351 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: you're right in terms of, you know, tracing back those 352 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: origins to UM two shivel Bush. That's very true. Now 353 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: it's also, of course the nature of the drug experience, 354 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: right that gets um that evolves. So at one point 355 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: in one of your talks, Aboys, so you mentioned the 356 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: sociologist Howard becker Um who writes a you know, an 357 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: article I think what's it called becoming a marijuana effectively 358 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: learning to become high in the the sort of social 359 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: constructivist you know, aspect of the drug experience, or I 360 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: think about you know Harry Levine who writes his classic 361 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: article called The Discovery of Addiction back in nineteen seventy eight, 362 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: you know, subtitle changing conceptions of a visual drunkenness in 363 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: America and looks at the way those notions of addiction 364 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: and in inebriation shift over time. So just say a 365 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: little more about that. Um, you know, this social constructivist 366 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: element in the field of history. You know, I'm going 367 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: perilously into social constructionism or social constructivism as sociologists like 368 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: to call it. Um. Becker is a fascinating character, by 369 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: the way, in everything, his his origins, his his musicality. 370 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: You know, he's still living in Paris apparently no, well, 371 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, he splits his time between Paris, where he's 372 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: become a famous sociologist profiled in New Yorker magazine, and 373 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: living in San Francisco where he's still working and writing 374 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: at the age of ninety four. It's just incredible. But 375 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: that article really was a kind of a breakthrough piece. Um. 376 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: He wrote that in the nine fifties where he observed 377 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: I think he was a University of Chicago graduate student. 378 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: Everything always goes back to the University of chicargog Um 379 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: and he did it basically a participant in ethnography with 380 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: jazz musicians in their audiences, and those are some of 381 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: the few people who you could find who were smoking 382 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: marijuana in the nine fifties. And he came up with 383 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: this thesis. It's very similar to what um as you said, 384 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: wow wow, brought up later or made into a broader 385 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: one that you had to learn how to use marijuana. 386 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: You had to learn what effects you could have your brain, 387 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: had to kind of be in a group and had 388 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: to you know, you could smoke pot and be like 389 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: Bill Clinton allegedly and not get high, or you could 390 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: smoke potting you could get high because you were getting 391 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: all these cues from the people around you as to 392 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: how to build that inter you know, that personal but 393 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: also interpersonal experience. And that's constructivism, which has a broader 394 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,959 Speaker 1: history and philosophy and the social sciences in general. You know, 395 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: in sociology there is this broader school all you know 396 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: about social constructivism that really went mad by the nineteen eighties, 397 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: where everything became socially constructed gender, race, blah blah blah. 398 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: In the world of drugs, it has a specific meaning 399 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: and still is an internal debate as to you know, 400 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: what is the biological or chemical input. There are some 401 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: UM students of drugs who will still say there's an 402 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: important biological or chemical input to the drug experience, to 403 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: those on the other extreme who say there's very little. 404 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: But it's an important school, vitally important school in animating 405 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: how people look at drugs and history, because it's it 406 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: can begin to you can begin to wrap your way 407 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: around how drugs become socialized, how they change over time, 408 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: the internalization of meanings about drugs, how certain drugs become domesticated, 409 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: which is something that most people would prefer, that is 410 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: used in normal situations, used in ritual situations, used UM modestly, 411 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: or on the contrary, used in endangerous and risky ways 412 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: that UM endangered not only the individual, but they endangered society. 413 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: So UM historians have taken have really bought into most 414 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: of the constructivist ideas, which really do go I think 415 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: go back to Becker. I was never convinced. I'd like 416 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: to see that that Weary invented the term UM. Yeah, yeah, 417 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure it was. It's attributed 418 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: to him, but it may be one of those urban legends. 419 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: I actually think it's not widely known in fact, that 420 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: he that he originated, and I think he you know, 421 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: he was a very creative intellectual be even but you know, 422 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: before his days of going, you know, into the guru area. 423 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: So it was a powerful notion that I think he 424 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: applied obviously to a psychedelic use, but applied more broadly. 425 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: But you know, Paul, I cut you off on another 426 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: point you were about to make there, which is it 427 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: was once again talking about the transformation in the technologies 428 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: around drugs, and you had begun to mention the gin epidemic, right, 429 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: you know that the in the sixteen hundreds when you 430 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: have the emergency. And I interviewed Ed Slingerland Um who 431 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: wrote that wonderful book about why is It? I think 432 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: it's called Drunk Drunk is the name of it, Um 433 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: about you know, why does alcohol persist throughout global society 434 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: notwithstanding its overwhelming harms. He makes the argument, the dominant 435 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: argument of the book is that, in fact that it 436 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: added more in the benefits of alcohol consumption in terms 437 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: of human evolution and civilization exceeded the harms. But then 438 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: he puts a caveat at the end where he said, 439 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: maybe the emergence of distilled alcohol first in Asia and 440 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: I think the thirteen fourteenth century and then in Europe 441 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: around the sixteen hundreds maybe changes the calculus, right, um, 442 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: And that could probably be said, I mean, I'm the 443 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: reference before to the cigarette rolling machine, which transforms tobacco consumption, 444 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: and the events of the hypodermic syringe, which transforms the 445 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: ways that people can take drugs in a very positive 446 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: way from the medical perspective, but a pretty destructive way 447 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: from a recreational perspective. Right, So there's another aspect of 448 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: technologies as well. I mean, Slinger in his book from 449 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: an alcohol perspective is part of a larger set of 450 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: what is sometimes called deep history, going back before we 451 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,239 Speaker 1: have you know, strong archives. It shares a lot with 452 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: archaeology and you know, kind of a certain school of anthropology, 453 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: and there has emergency thesis in many fields. The drugs 454 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: were really important in early hunits, not just alcohol, but 455 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: other types of plant based drugs, um mushrooms, psychedelics of 456 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: all kinds, tobacco, and that they were important in creating 457 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: a great deal of our socialista Shian in groups. Um 458 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: and drugs brought people together and rather than for example, 459 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: there's this thesis that is is um has emerged for 460 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: understanding civilizations in the Middle East grain based civilizations, that 461 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: the main reason for growing brains in the Middle East 462 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: and the earliest known findings was to be able to 463 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: produce beer, because beer is what brought these communities into 464 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: small urban areas and created you know, larger political controls. 465 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: And so rather than beer being a side effect of 466 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: of a Neolithic revolution, it was the other way around. 467 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: Alcohol was repellent to Neolithic revolutions and the formations of 468 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: early states. And similar thesis have been made about some 469 00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: of the ancient um of societies of the America's and psychedelics. 470 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: And I remember I actually at your at your keynote 471 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: address in Mexico City this past June, right to the 472 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: conference of Alpha Drunk Historians. You talked about that earlier. 473 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: You point make the point first of all, that it's 474 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: the Americas from which the large majority of psychoactive plant 475 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,479 Speaker 1: substances emerged, right, It's not as much Asian Africa. And 476 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: that's secondly that that early history you know, both among 477 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: small groups and then at some point then becoming more 478 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: of a tool of the elite um once you begin 479 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: to get the larger inca and as tickets cetera empires. Right, Well, 480 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: there's a it's a it's a very open area of 481 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: study um among archaeologists and anthropologists, but it's getting more 482 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: and more attention now. Although I have to say that 483 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: the notion of psychedelics in the Americas or whatever we're 484 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: going to call them, the term changes from time to time, 485 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: goes back to classic ethnobotanists. I think it was a 486 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: guy named Winston Labar who first termed this idea of 487 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: the American drug complex. And he just did this kind 488 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: of empirical study and he found out that something like 489 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: of what we're known of psychoactive alkaloidal substances that were 490 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: used had their origins somewhere in the America's usually in 491 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: the tropics. And there's a ecological reason for this. But 492 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: why societies, small scale and then larger scale societies got 493 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: so involved, and so it was a topic of tremendous 494 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: um researched by ethnobotanist, the most famous of whom you're 495 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: probably familiar with, who's Richard Evan Shults and who has 496 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: probably been mentioned on more episodes of Psychoactives. What I associated, however, 497 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: was that you also pointed out that he was from 498 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: an American perspective, very pivotal and had a global influence, 499 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: but that there were other European equivalents who even preceded 500 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: him in some of these ethnobotanical studies. Yes, he was 501 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: not the first ethnobotanist, but he had a tremendous impact 502 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: because of this position at Harvard. He was somewhat of 503 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: a maverick. I don't know. He was apparently a Republican 504 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: UM very he held very conservative political views, but he 505 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: did you know he collaborated with Hoffman too in one 506 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: book later about but he was a cat. He had 507 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: to use full names here with Albert who you know 508 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: who who discovered LSD or synthesizing and in the forties. Um, 509 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: but he was a he wasn't ethnobotanists who did a 510 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: lot of firsthand research among indigenous people's and other people's 511 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: in Colombia and in the Amazon. And he had this 512 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 1: anthropologists ethnobotanist idea of drugs neutral. It's something to be 513 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: studied it's something to be relativized. All societies used them. 514 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: We need to know more about this, We need to 515 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: know about their meanings. There forms of ingestion, their their 516 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: chemist reason. He was a great cataloguer of the of 517 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: the particularly hallucinogenic um plants of the Americas, and he 518 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: kind of legitimized them. No, and a powerful influence on 519 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: Andy Wile and Wade Davis and Dennis Mintenna and a 520 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: whole range of us and also somebody because he was 521 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: trying these substances as well. It makes you realize how 522 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: pathetic in some respects that here you have the federal 523 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: government National Student on Drug Abuse, you know, spending billions 524 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: of dollars to give out to study drugs to people 525 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: who are essentially required not to have used those. I mean, 526 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: it just said, you know, let's let's let's tie our 527 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: hands behind our back and trying to make generalizations about 528 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: the properties of these substances. Um. Going back to your 529 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: idea about technology and other things to take in suit 530 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: account are the technologies of smuggling and contraband and um, 531 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of interest in that now, and smuggling 532 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: cultures and smuggling routes and how drugs become a wizard 533 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: smuggled goods and their technology is important too, because you know, 534 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: one are the first technologies that are used, they're going 535 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: to be you know, people walking with through borders with 536 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: you know a few at it's called ants smuggling. And 537 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: then there's gonna be the automobile, and then there's going 538 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: to be the train, and then there's gonna be the airplane, 539 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: and then there's gonna be the Internet. And you get 540 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: to a point where the technologies that are supporting UM 541 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: the abilities of smugglers and contraband is to get around 542 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: a prohibitionist regime which is taking shape really from the 543 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: sixties onwards. The technologies are favoring UM smuggling more than 544 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: the control I mean call that goes into what some 545 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: people call the Iron law prohibition right of drugs getting 546 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: more potent, more compact. You know, probably the scientific article 547 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: I've most quoted over many episodes of Psychoactive is the 548 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: piece that Joseph Westernmeier wrote in the Archives of General 549 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: Psychiatry fifty years ago called the pro heroin Effects of 550 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: anti Opium laws and pointed out, as you had prohibitions 551 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: on opium emerging in Southwest and Southeast Asia. The market 552 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: shifted towards heroin because it was more compact, easier to smuggle, 553 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: more discreet to consume. If you even look back at 554 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: a hundred years ago in the the United States when we 555 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: when we banned opium in ports, you begin to have 556 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: the switch to heroin, right, Um, you can see the 557 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: same thing happened, Um, I mean more contemporaneously with the 558 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: bands on first on pharmaceutical opiates and with heroin, the 559 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: shift to fentonel. You know, perhaps the most compact form 560 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: of opioids we have available more or less and now 561 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 1: the most deadly. And that's happened in a whole range 562 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: of other areas as well. And mean to cocaine is 563 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: to some extent that story as well. Well. Well, cocon 564 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: never traveled very far as a commodity, really couldn't do that. 565 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: It didn't stay. It wasn't powerful enough, it didn't have 566 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: that cultural kind of transmissibility, so it stayed within the 567 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: Andean region, much like what court right argue that there's 568 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: some regional drugs, but once it was actually indust For 569 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: a second, because I'm just having done recently episodes on 570 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: cava the South Pacific substance, and also on cot from 571 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: the Horn of Africa and Yemen. Similarly, like coca, these 572 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: things do not transport well so that they would have 573 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: been they I mean, and those have remained essentially regional 574 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: psychoactive plant products right where coca you know, by virtue 575 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: of being refined and then getting first into coca Cola 576 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: van Mariani, the popular Bordeau wine with a co confusion, 577 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 1: and then more in the broader cocaine markets is different 578 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: in that regard, right, um afordable, but coffee and tobacco 579 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: and tea, those all do transport very well. And alcohol 580 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 1: it can be produced anywhere, but also transports very well. Right, 581 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: So the transportability of different substances appears to make us 582 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: very sign I mean, if you ask why why thn 583 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: cava are cot? I mean, those things might have been 584 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: more appealing if in a kind of um modernized element, 585 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: if they could have traveled well, And it makes sure, 586 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I always wondered the question what would compete 587 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: effectively with coffee in the contemporary world, and if coca 588 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: becomes decriminalized in some ways, could it emerge as a 589 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: competitive product, or if they figure out what contra cava 590 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 1: how to turn it into something or is it the flavor, 591 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: the smell, on the taste. And that's why coffee is 592 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 1: so pre eminent where is it? Doesn't that's not true 593 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: of many of these other substances, A wide a variety 594 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: of caffeinated or pseudo caffeinated substances like what and from 595 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: Brazil or mante from the Southern cone. They could become 596 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: minor competitors as global commodities to coffee. But you know, 597 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: coffee is coffee, though there was a problem, wasn't the 598 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,320 Speaker 1: in the I wish you mean coffee is coffee because 599 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: if it's wonderful roma, I mean that thing, it's and 600 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: it's already established itself in the path dependency since the 601 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 1: sixteenth century. Is the kind of you know, primary um 602 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: stimulant of of Western societies and others UM. But you know, 603 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: in the ninet twenties, the League of Nations was worried 604 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: that there would be a trade in raw caffeine because 605 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: there were mountains of caffeine that were being stored when 606 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: they began to make decaffeated coffee UM. And they thought 607 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: that this, you know, this white substance was going to 608 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: be like the next um drug. That was going to 609 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: be you know, across traffic, across borders. But I don't 610 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: think the global caffeine trade UM never took off as feared, 611 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: or it's only made it into a few energy drinks 612 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 1: that we unfortunately consumed a lot of UM today. Well, Paul, 613 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking if we think in terms of drug biographies, right, 614 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: I mean, you've sort of done one on cocaine. But 615 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: if we look like if coffee, for example, right, I mean, 616 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 1: if you look at where it was originally sort of 617 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: used and then where the major loci production have been 618 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 1: in recent centuries, right, I mean that's one like if 619 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: you take something like tobacco that comes from the America's 620 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: and and maybe the same is true of cacao, which 621 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: becomes chocolate, comes from the America's and becomes globalized, right, 622 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: and then those things begin to produce be produced in 623 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,320 Speaker 1: many other parts of the world. Coca maybe the same 624 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: thing where you begin to get production in the East Indies, 625 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: for example, Indonesia, Malaysia. But I'm thinking about when we 626 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: look at these substances, which are the ones that sort 627 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: of emerged in one area and that region continues to 628 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: be the dominant production region. Throughout centuries. Which are the 629 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: ones where it begins in one region and then another 630 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: region basically becomes a dominant production place. And which are 631 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: the ones where it's initially starts someplace else and then 632 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: like coffee or something gets you know, becomes you know, 633 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: disassociated from its original I could give you the whole 634 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: lecture about the kind of the shifting dynamics of you know, 635 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 1: coffee production and marketing around the world, because it's um 636 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: there's been a lot written about it in it but 637 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: what I would say the most important thing to bear 638 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: in mind is that these goods were part of the 639 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: rise of early modern and then modern commercial empires and colonialism. 640 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: So coffee, you know what, as a as a plant, 641 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: most of what we consumers coffee today came from the 642 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: Horn of Africa. It had a across the Arabian Peninsula 643 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,759 Speaker 1: a kind of coffee culture, and spread slowly throughout the 644 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: Middle East. But it's the rise of European colonialism that 645 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: shifts the locusts of where coffee is going to be important. Um, 646 00:40:52,080 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: the Indian Ocean region actually began the whole um rise 647 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: of coffee as a global commodity, but very much under 648 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: the control of indigenous merchant groups in India and along 649 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: what we we call the Emirates today. And but then 650 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: later by the seventeenth and eighteenth century, the Dutch and 651 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: the English and the French are getting involved and displacing. 652 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: It was a very profitable commodity, and they displaced these 653 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: native merchant um networks, and coffee itself as a colonial 654 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: crop begins to spread to areas where it could be 655 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: more profitably concentrated by these colonial powers. So the first 656 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,720 Speaker 1: major area where this amplification of coffee happens, well, first 657 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: there's the Dutch in Java, which is still why we 658 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: call um coffee Java sometimes. But as the Caribbean and 659 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: Haiti in the French they grow. They they they plantationized 660 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: coffee in the Caribbean with the slaver regime in Sandmang, 661 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: and then when that's overthrown in the eighteenth century, coffee 662 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: begins to spread to another slave regime in Brazil and 663 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: expands on a global scale in the nineteenth century in 664 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,959 Speaker 1: a way that had never been seen before, very much 665 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: part of the rise of the informal American sovereignties in 666 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: the America. So the big coffee market that's emerging in 667 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: the nineteenth centuries between the mass consumption of coffee in 668 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 1: the United States with all the rise of these frontier 669 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 1: markets and coffee roasters and a m p s and 670 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: all of this, and these Brazilian plantations that are multiplying 671 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,800 Speaker 1: and multiplying, particularly around the Santos you know, sal Bolo region. 672 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: So by the end of the nineteenth century, Brazil is 673 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: producing eight of the world's coffee, and it's like a 674 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: hundred times more coffee than has been produced at the 675 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 1: beginning of the nineteenth century. And it's become an everyday commodity, 676 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 1: democratized in the United States and beginning to become democratized 677 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: in Europe as well. And really, you know, at that 678 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 1: point has transformed, um, the way we we live um. 679 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: And why did Brazil lose that role? Then in the 680 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: twentieth century, Brazil still has an important role in the 681 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: history of coffee. But to give you the short answer 682 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: of that, the commodity historian and myself will tell you 683 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: this is it. Brazil continued to be very important, along 684 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: with Colombia and Central America, dominating world coffee markets until 685 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: the eighties. And something happened at the end of the 686 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: eighties that changed the way coffee um was marketed globally, 687 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: and that was the end of the Cold War. At 688 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,760 Speaker 1: the end of the Cold War, the International Coffee Agreement, 689 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,279 Speaker 1: which was a way that the United States thought that 690 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: it was containing revolution in the tropical belts of the 691 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: America's and Africa and Southeast Asia because so many millions 692 00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,120 Speaker 1: of coffee peasants depended on the price of coffee being 693 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 1: you know, stable, so they wouldn't become communists. The Americans 694 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: withdrew all their support from the International Coffee Agreement, and 695 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,240 Speaker 1: so coffee began to fluctuate in price and in ways 696 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,919 Speaker 1: that was unimaginable during the Cold War, and that's led 697 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: to the rise of these new coffee producers. Vietnam is 698 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,720 Speaker 1: one of the largest coffee producers in the world now, ironically, 699 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: but also African countries. The coffee belt has sort of 700 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: spread throughout the globe. They're um you know, more in 701 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:37,759 Speaker 1: response to market mechanisms than this politicized market that had 702 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 1: been in the mercantilest market that had been in the 703 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 1: twenty century. Let's take a break here and go to 704 00:44:45,400 --> 00:45:01,320 Speaker 1: an ad Now politic compared of contrast to other drugs, 705 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: coca is so identified with the Indian region of Latin America. 706 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: But there's a point at which what the Dutch takeing 707 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: to East Asia, and that emerged as what any I 708 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: don't know, was it even more dominant export exporter for 709 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 1: some years than in Latin America. Yeah, well, the quick 710 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:24,800 Speaker 1: version of that story about how that comes back around. 711 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 1: Coca is emerging along with cocaine, you know, as a sizeable, 712 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:36,280 Speaker 1: important um new drug. Um It was used in drinks, 713 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: and he was used in medicines. Cocaine was a medical 714 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: commodity of great importance, particularly in surgery. It was beginning 715 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,720 Speaker 1: to be there were beginning to be some of strong 716 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: reservations about its wider use, and so European imperial powers, 717 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: including the British, the French, the Dutch and the Germans, 718 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 1: began experiment with their own coca plantations. They all wanted 719 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: to see if in their colonies, you know, this was 720 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: the era of the imperilous grab, particularly in Africa, in 721 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: their own colonies, whether or not they could make a 722 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: killing on you know, a wide variety of commodities and 723 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:21,280 Speaker 1: drug substances. The British did successfully grow coca in India 724 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 1: at Sri Lanka, but the one that really took off 725 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 1: was the Dutch, and there was a long history behind this. UM. 726 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:36,880 Speaker 1: Dutch were consummate commercial imperialists and their botanical gardens were um, 727 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,800 Speaker 1: we're always um experimenting with new commodities, and they started 728 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 1: setting up in Java and Sumatra kind of model plantations 729 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,879 Speaker 1: for coca, and the coca plantations there were much more 730 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 1: cost effective than they were in the Andes, where it 731 00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,600 Speaker 1: was generally a kind of a chaotic peasant run prop 732 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: the way we think of today coffee, say, in a 733 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 1: small hold place like Colombia. UM. And instead there were 734 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: these massive plantations, very high productivity, went to scientific processes 735 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,279 Speaker 1: and linked to a kind of a mercantilist policy of 736 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,760 Speaker 1: the Dutch state, which was to dominate the cocaine markets 737 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: of Europe. And so the Dutch set up this national 738 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,280 Speaker 1: cocaine factory, and it was in the middle of Amsterdam 739 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: and all this you know, East Asian coca came up 740 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: there in the teens and through the nineteen twenties was 741 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: made into cocaine spread around Europe. Um. There was so 742 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,800 Speaker 1: much of it being produced in Holland that it was infiltrating. 743 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: It's kind of been a gray zone into Asian markets 744 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 1: as well as a kind of an illicit drug UM 745 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: and so what was But there's never any there's never 746 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 1: any real emergence of domestic consumption of coca cocaine very 747 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: much that we can you know that we can point 748 00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,480 Speaker 1: to UM not in Indonesia and what we call today Indonesia. Uh, 749 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,439 Speaker 1: there are people who are studying that in the case 750 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,879 Speaker 1: of India, whether or not that happened in the case 751 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 1: of India or not, but really not UM. And what's 752 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: interesting is that the Dutch actually got rid of most 753 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: of their cocaine and coca voluntarily. It was one of 754 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: the few examples of this happening. And that is when 755 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: they were has to do with some very complex politics 756 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 1: of the League of Nations and trying to limit drugs 757 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: in the nine twenties and nineties, and the Dutch decided 758 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,919 Speaker 1: that the cocaine business was just not that important to them. 759 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 1: What was more important was getting concessions about their opiate 760 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,879 Speaker 1: farming as it was called in Southeast Asia. So they 761 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: downgraded the um the cocaine colonialism that they had. That 762 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: Japanese had done something very similar by the way, with 763 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,880 Speaker 1: Formosa what we call today Taiwan um and developed a 764 00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: very high grade modernistic cocaine industry based on UM for 765 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: most and colonized coca that was Some of the largest 766 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 1: UM pharmaceutical companies in Japan were involved in this. So, 767 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,279 Speaker 1: Paul switching subjects here, you know, on the criminalization and 768 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,439 Speaker 1: evolution of prohibition regimes, right, I mean both. I don't 769 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: just mean global regimes, but even prohibition laws. But when 770 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,759 Speaker 1: we look at these prohibitions from a more global perspective, 771 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,239 Speaker 1: is it right to put it all on the US 772 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,920 Speaker 1: and on the West? Is being the driving force for 773 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,759 Speaker 1: all of these things? Or in fact, are there very 774 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,719 Speaker 1: traditions of prohibitionism throughout the world going back centuries, if 775 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: not millennia. So you've asked a good question, what is 776 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: it that makes twenty century global prohibition your term? There 777 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,520 Speaker 1: are some historians who can try to contest them. We 778 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,239 Speaker 1: never really had full global prohibition. What is it that 779 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 1: makes it different? One of the things in my mind 780 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,960 Speaker 1: that makes it different is is part of this whole 781 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: thing that you don't what sociologists like Scott would call 782 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 1: high modern modernism, this idea that the state can absolutely 783 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:15,920 Speaker 1: try to control individual behavior, restructure society according to you know, 784 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,640 Speaker 1: a set of ideal parameters, and we've seen that most 785 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: of those ideas you know, have failed, whether it be 786 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union or drug prohibition, they fall into kind 787 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,440 Speaker 1: of overambitious, you know, state led projects. And I think 788 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are looking at drugs are 789 00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 1: now and alcohol as well, alcohol prohibition. You said that 790 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 1: you had MC around here, you know. Her thesis is 791 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: that alcohol prohibition in the United States was integral to 792 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 1: the process of modern you know, federal state building in 793 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: the United States. And I think a lot of people 794 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: who look at drugs now are interested in its intersection 795 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,759 Speaker 1: with processes like state building and wars. But whether or 796 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:59,000 Speaker 1: not is it always from the center? Is it that? 797 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 1: That has been one of the most contested UM issues 798 00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 1: in recent years. And I'll just give you an example 799 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 1: of one of the most interesting books on this subject, 800 00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 1: which is Uma compos A very good colleague of mine 801 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 1: published a book about a decade ago called Homegrown Marijuana 802 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 1: and the Origins of Mexico's War on Drugs. What he 803 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,200 Speaker 1: argues in here is that by the nineteenth century, first 804 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 1: of all, marijuana cannabis is not indigenous to Mexico, but 805 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: it was one of these drugs that gets adopted and 806 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: becomes indigenized during the nineteenth century, mostly by non indigenous 807 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,400 Speaker 1: people's mestizo people's in Mexico, but by the late nineteenth 808 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:46,360 Speaker 1: century becomes very much the discourses around marijuana become very 809 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:51,320 Speaker 1: frightening to Mexican elites. Marijuana is something that that poor, desperate, 810 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 1: violent people use, and there's this idea of marijuana leading 811 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,880 Speaker 1: to madness, an idea that um comes in those every 812 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,680 Speaker 1: ten years or so, you know you and now um 813 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,400 Speaker 1: and so marijuana madness. You know, what was translating the 814 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,239 Speaker 1: United States is reefor madness. According to Compost, is really 815 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,719 Speaker 1: a conception that's that's made in its modern form in Mexico, 816 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,640 Speaker 1: and Mexico's drug laws by n seventeen are beginning the 817 00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,399 Speaker 1: prohibition of marijuana in Mexico, and so he in the 818 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,120 Speaker 1: end it's always suggestive, but he suggests that what happens 819 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 1: in the United States, rather than racism against Mexican Americans, 820 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,520 Speaker 1: he suggests it was a different type of flow. Mexico's 821 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:42,840 Speaker 1: prohibitionist fears and anxieties about marijuana become adopted by physicians 822 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,440 Speaker 1: and politicians in the United States. In the nineteen thirties 823 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:51,840 Speaker 1: and are then amplified by the kind of Anslinger type 824 00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:57,520 Speaker 1: of campaign. So in in in composed this idea, you know, 825 00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:01,680 Speaker 1: so there's nothing that's American about this. It can be 826 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,480 Speaker 1: and I can have origins in other places as well. 827 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,640 Speaker 1: So just to like Pageant often is at one point 828 00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,239 Speaker 1: you also make in your writing if a cannabis is 829 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:15,759 Speaker 1: paradoxically the leaf studied of the major world drugs, why 830 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,239 Speaker 1: do you think that, Why do you think that is? Oh? Yeah, well, 831 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,440 Speaker 1: I think that that is actually being remedied now. I 832 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: think there are a lot of people who are doing dissertation, 833 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 1: serious dissertations. I had one in my own department about 834 00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:31,000 Speaker 1: the Caribbean recently. But I I have a a pretty 835 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,800 Speaker 1: good thesis as to why when drug history began to 836 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: really began with the hard drugs, right, it began with 837 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: those studies that we mentioned earlier about opiates, and then 838 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,240 Speaker 1: people began to study cocaine, and for some reason marijuana 839 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:48,919 Speaker 1: just remained completely out of the scope of people who 840 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,400 Speaker 1: are doing serious studies. And why was that? Well, I 841 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,520 Speaker 1: think in part it was the image problem. Marijuana was 842 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 1: just too much of a stoner's drug. It was something 843 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:03,480 Speaker 1: that we assumed we knew about. Um it was too easy. 844 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,160 Speaker 1: Um it wasn't something that was the fit. A serious 845 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,200 Speaker 1: type of study was kind to the Cheech and Chong 846 00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:15,000 Speaker 1: of drug history. But that has begun to shift. I mean, 847 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 1: they're very serious studies that are emerging and they're changing 848 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 1: a lot of ideas about the global spread of cannabis, 849 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,680 Speaker 1: about the global impact about I mean, Paul I was 850 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,600 Speaker 1: struck by the amount that's coming out about cannabis and Africa. 851 00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean, just before a trip I took to Nigerian 852 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,600 Speaker 1: Sierra Leone and I was doing some background reading and 853 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 1: there's serious scholarship about cannabis and South Africa and West 854 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 1: Africa are parts of other parts. So yes, because it 855 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 1: was always assumed that, for example that um uh. There 856 00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,280 Speaker 1: was even a synthesis by Chris Duval The African Roots 857 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,319 Speaker 1: of Marijuana came out just a few years ago and 858 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:55,239 Speaker 1: has had a tremendous impact on the field, and he 859 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,279 Speaker 1: argues that Africa was an important way station in the 860 00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:04,360 Speaker 1: global ation and dissemination of marijuana to the Americas and elsewhere. 861 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:09,840 Speaker 1: That it's is completely hidden history of very very um 862 00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,800 Speaker 1: um rapid African innovation and use of different forms of cannabis, 863 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: including and this might shock you, the invention of the 864 00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 1: bomb in East Africa. Um but there's been a lot 865 00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,920 Speaker 1: about Duval's book that other historians who work on cannabis 866 00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,120 Speaker 1: is and oh well, I don't know if that linguistic 867 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,719 Speaker 1: argument works that well or there's not enough research on this. 868 00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:38,920 Speaker 1: But I think cannabis's time has come now for serious research, 869 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:45,800 Speaker 1: given that, um it stopped being such a marginal topic. 870 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, for years the only source that 871 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,240 Speaker 1: people had was the Marijuana Conviction, those types of works 872 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,520 Speaker 1: that were written very much in haste in the early 873 00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,800 Speaker 1: seventies of her to you know, have a counter critique 874 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,520 Speaker 1: to that's the Marijuana Conviction by Richard Bonnie and White Bread. 875 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:06,840 Speaker 1: Richard Bonnie having been the deputy director of the Nixon 876 00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,320 Speaker 1: Schaefer Commission fifty years ago and still a professor teaching 877 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,040 Speaker 1: at the University of Virginia Law School. So paulicies were 878 00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,719 Speaker 1: almost at a time. Last question here, when we look 879 00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:20,040 Speaker 1: at the major lacuna in drug history studies these days, 880 00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,040 Speaker 1: I mean, we see more stuff emerging on synthetic drugs, 881 00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:27,120 Speaker 1: for example, and how important that is raises important questions about. 882 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 1: You know, as more and more drugs can be produced 883 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,640 Speaker 1: synthetically at lower costs and get into from their planned origins, 884 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,480 Speaker 1: that's going to represent a major evolution. But the thing 885 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,000 Speaker 1: that struck me, in part because of my own personal 886 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,400 Speaker 1: role in all of this over the last thirty years 887 00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,920 Speaker 1: and my own evolution, is it still seems I cannot 888 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:49,680 Speaker 1: think of a serious, really substantive, comprehensive history of US 889 00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:53,080 Speaker 1: drug policy from the nineteen seventies to the present, in 890 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,319 Speaker 1: terms of looking at the War on drugs, in terms 891 00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,920 Speaker 1: of looking at the congressional politics, in terms of looking 892 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,120 Speaker 1: at White House policy of but going into you know, 893 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,759 Speaker 1: doing fl I request, in doing archival research, I don't 894 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,760 Speaker 1: know if you can think of anything I mean substantial. 895 00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:10,560 Speaker 1: And I wonder, you know, is this in the works 896 00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,040 Speaker 1: or are there good reasons why this hasn't happened as yet? 897 00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,479 Speaker 1: And that's a great question, you know, you somebody else 898 00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,000 Speaker 1: brought that up with me recently. And you know, sometimes 899 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,520 Speaker 1: in academic fields there are some questions that are so 900 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 1: big and they you just remain there as holes because 901 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,680 Speaker 1: people assume it's been done and it hasn't been done. 902 00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,080 Speaker 1: And you're right, there have been people who worked a 903 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 1: lot on the mid century UM and US drug policies, 904 00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,920 Speaker 1: like the book by Katherine Fright. Now there's more and 905 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,840 Speaker 1: more work and kind of those historical archives, but I 906 00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:45,320 Speaker 1: don't think that there's an overarching history of the US 907 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,760 Speaker 1: War on drugs. In part it's because, like a lot 908 00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,800 Speaker 1: of historical questions, people were waiting to see how it 909 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,640 Speaker 1: turned out, how does the story end? And now that 910 00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,440 Speaker 1: we see that the story is ending in a way 911 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,720 Speaker 1: that was not for addicted by his constructors in the 912 00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:07,160 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties through seventies UM, and is falling apart and 913 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,000 Speaker 1: losing all consensus and losing global consensus as well. For example, 914 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 1: we have no partners to wage a war on drugs 915 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:19,680 Speaker 1: left in Latin America. UM. That's an important example. UM. 916 00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:25,520 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, it's time, and I've heard of people. UM. 917 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,120 Speaker 1: For example, a colleague of mine in Britain who had 918 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:30,880 Speaker 1: worked on Mexico wants to write a history of the 919 00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,960 Speaker 1: d e A in this whole period UM and their involvements. 920 00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,360 Speaker 1: But he says it's very difficult, driven UM kind of 921 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:43,880 Speaker 1: the hiding or hoarding of documents. So it's very difficult 922 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,080 Speaker 1: to do that type of war. So we're likely works 923 00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,280 Speaker 1: that were written a long time ago, like Epstein's Agency 924 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,760 Speaker 1: of Fear, written in the moment with a kind of 925 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:58,200 Speaker 1: ideological way to them book about the Nix scenaria. But 926 00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,040 Speaker 1: he was a journalist. Well, listen, Paul, we are basically 927 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,959 Speaker 1: out of time. I hope. I We've left a lot 928 00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:08,920 Speaker 1: of dangling questions and half completed answers, which I hope 929 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,520 Speaker 1: will take up in future future seasons of Psychoactive, if 930 00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: in fact we succeed in that. But I'm very grateful 931 00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:18,440 Speaker 1: for you taking the time uh to talk with me 932 00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:22,440 Speaker 1: and my listeners on Psychoactive about the global history of drugs. 933 00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:27,520 Speaker 1: So thank you very part of this. Okay, Paul and 934 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,880 Speaker 1: I'll be following up offline so we can schedule our 935 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:39,760 Speaker 1: next bike ride around Brooklyn. Okay. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, 936 00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,680 Speaker 1: please tell your friends about it, or you can write 937 00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,240 Speaker 1: us a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 938 00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:48,400 Speaker 1: your podcasts. We love to hear from our listeners. If 939 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,320 Speaker 1: you'd like to share your own stories, comes and ideas, 940 00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,520 Speaker 1: then leave us a message at one eight three three 941 00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:01,000 Speaker 1: seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, 942 01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,760 Speaker 1: or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot 943 01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:07,800 Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. 944 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,240 Speaker 1: You can also find contact information in our show notes. 945 01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,960 Speaker 1: Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. 946 01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,760 Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noham 947 01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,840 Speaker 1: Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, 948 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:28,200 Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, 949 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,160 Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from My Heart Radio, and 950 01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,640 Speaker 1: me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and 951 01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:39,440 Speaker 1: a special thanks to a Brio, s F Bianca Grimshaw 952 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:52,680 Speaker 1: and Robert BB. Next week, I'll be talking with Charlie 953 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,280 Speaker 1: Winninger and New York psychotherapist and author of Listening to Ecstasy, 954 01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,960 Speaker 1: as well as his wife, Shelley Winninger, about healthy age 955 01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,960 Speaker 1: and sexuality with M D m A and marijuana. And 956 01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:06,960 Speaker 1: it may help me get in touch with my eight 957 01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:10,400 Speaker 1: year old, my eighteen year old, my twenty eight year old. 958 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,000 Speaker 1: And I can do that when I'm sober, because my 959 01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,320 Speaker 1: inner child, or my inner eighteen year old, or my 960 01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,720 Speaker 1: inner thirty year Olds. Thanks to tell me and thanks 961 01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:26,360 Speaker 1: to remind me of and that that's vitality and spontaneity 962 01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:30,280 Speaker 1: that I had then is still available to me. Subscribe 963 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,120 Speaker 1: to Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.