Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Roundup Live from Delphi. I'm Cheryl
Speaker 1: McCollum with the one and only Nancy Gray.
Speaker 2: You know, Cheryl, I've been listening to a lot of
Speaker 2: your crime roundups plus what's with you, tap Might and Delphi.
Speaker 2: It sounds like you've been up to a four am
Speaker 2: what's happening?
Speaker 1: I was driving until about two am, sure enough. But
Speaker 1: before we go any further, Happy birthday you.
Speaker 2: I thought for sure i'd flame out before now. So
Speaker 2: every day is gravy man, everything.
Speaker 3: It is absolutely icing all the time.
Speaker 2: Every time I'd walk through one of those projects without
Speaker 2: a god, I'd say, well, this.
Speaker 3: Is it, this is how it's gonna go. Yep, I
Speaker 3: ain't thinking in this way.
Speaker 1: We got some things that have been happen in the
Speaker 1: last couple of days, and I've just got to get
Speaker 1: your tay as a former prosecutor, about how you think
Speaker 1: they're building this case. But the first thing I want
Speaker 1: to ask you about is Richard Allen changing his height
Speaker 1: on his fishing license.
Speaker 2: Now, isn't that amazing? Because I really really hated that
Speaker 2: you could not be with us last night when we
Speaker 2: did in MSN Mayor Street Media's Crime Stories, because I
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to you about not necessarily that very thing,
Speaker 2: but something related changing and I'm circling back. I'm not
Speaker 2: avoiding changing his appearance. And I compare it to, of course,
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson. You know, I hate using the same examples,
Speaker 2: but they're just so fertile, they're rich with comparisons. Scott
Speaker 2: Peterson dying is hearing growing a goatee. And then you got,
Speaker 2: as soon as the survivor was Dylan Mortenson where it
Speaker 2: could have been Bethany said, the had bushy eyebrows and
Speaker 2: x y Z. He immediately fixed that, Brian Kohberger. And
Speaker 2: now he's getting a different kind of a metrosexual look.
Speaker 2: The changing of the appearance, because if you look at
Speaker 2: photos Richard Allen, for instance, the one where he's out
Speaker 2: with his wife at a restaurant slash bar, and he's
Speaker 2: sitting directly in front of a composite sketch of him. Yes,
Speaker 2: he looks you know, you know, let me just say heavier.
Speaker 2: He looks much more like the man on the bridge,
Speaker 2: the bridge guy. And now he's just withering away. He's
Speaker 2: intentionally doing this. He's got that well, had that horrible
Speaker 2: goatee and it looks like cousin it has jumped on
Speaker 2: his chin. But what I'm saying, and that's a personal choice,
Speaker 2: you know, fine, go for it. But if anyone see
Speaker 2: he's trying to change his appearance to differentiate himself as
Speaker 2: much as possible from the bridge guy.
Speaker 1: He knows he was seen on the bridge, So of
Speaker 1: course that's what he's doing. And I'll tell you you,
Speaker 1: more than anybody I have ever known, could take one
Speaker 1: sentence out of fifty thousand pieces of evidence and make
Speaker 1: it so prevalent that it would just slap the jury
Speaker 1: in the face every day. And we found out that
Speaker 1: when they went to his home and was talking to him.
Speaker 1: And it's all over now, Amen, I could see that
Speaker 1: big at Dallas on a poster board.
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter, it's over. I mean, I've.
Speaker 2: Had a cop come to our house. Let's see. The
Speaker 2: twins were about three and we loved I believe I've
Speaker 2: told you this before. We love to go I return
Speaker 2: a little Methodist church. Don't ask me how this happened.
Speaker 2: I never did this as a child, but apparently both
Speaker 2: the twins loved it. They would look for bugs, they
Speaker 2: were bug investigators, and we would catch bugs and look
Speaker 2: for bugs and dig under rocks for bugs. And there
Speaker 2: was this walkway over at the church that had rocks
Speaker 2: on the edges and we would play for hours and
Speaker 2: hours before I would have to go to work at CNM. Anyway,
Speaker 2: a vehicle, a big monster truck, came flying through the
Speaker 2: parking lot and came straight at the twins. We were
Speaker 2: kind of on the corner on the very curve, the
Speaker 2: most dangerous place to be, but there was never any
Speaker 2: traffic there. I jumped from him and pushed the twins back,
Speaker 2: and of course got the tag, and the monster truck
Speaker 2: scrooched off, you know, burning rubber. Well, of course I
Speaker 2: called the police, so you know, was a while later.
Speaker 2: Two cops came to the door, and I can tell
Speaker 2: you this. I said, well, come on in, can I
Speaker 2: make you some coffee? Would you like a bottle of water?
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah. I don't say, well, holme a wrist up,
Speaker 2: go on and cut me. It's all over now.
Speaker 3: I didn't do that, No, And I would love to.
Speaker 2: Argue to Jerry's. When you see the GBI pulling up
Speaker 2: behind you, you may tap your brakes for a moment,
Speaker 2: but you don't take off at one five mph. Why
Speaker 2: because you don't have a dead body in your trunk,
Speaker 2: you don't have dope under your seat, you're not carrying
Speaker 2: an illegal weapon, you don't have a warrant out for
Speaker 2: your Sorry, we're end. So why did he say that,
Speaker 2: you're so right, Cherl? That would be at the top.
Speaker 2: It's all over now.
Speaker 3: It's right exactly.
Speaker 1: Can we just hit on the fact too, that when
Speaker 1: he knew he had been seen, So that's why he said, Hey, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was on the bridge.
Speaker 3: I just want joll to know I was looking at
Speaker 3: fish but.
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson and Scott Peterson, yeah, I was golfing until
Speaker 2: he found out the marina workers saw him. I'm trying
Speaker 2: to back the boat in. Then he went, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: is that the marina?
Speaker 3: The same thing here?
Speaker 2: And you know it's driving me crazy online all the
Speaker 2: crazy conspiracy theories.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Cover up. You know you can't have it both ways.
Speaker 2: That you cannot argue the cops are stupid, which they're not,
Speaker 2: and this is an elaborate cover up. Okay, you have
Speaker 2: to pick which way you're gonna go. You can't have
Speaker 2: forty five and an elaborate cover up that has somehow
Speaker 2: managed to withstand all of this scrutiny because you know,
Speaker 2: if there was a cover up, the defense would be
Speaker 2: that would be their banner and they would be, you know,
Speaker 2: rancing around the courtroom waving the flag cover up.
Speaker 1: And if they're gonna set somebody up, it's not gonna
Speaker 1: be with one unspent bullet. There's no way they would
Speaker 1: have knowled that would have matched his phone. That's just
Speaker 1: like when they said, oh, the cops planted blood at
Speaker 1: OJ's you know, Nicole Brown's theme from OJ. They didn't
Speaker 1: know OJ was hurt. They wouldn't have put his blood
Speaker 1: anywhere they didn't know he was cut.
Speaker 3: That ain't how people.
Speaker 1: Get set up. People get set up. Oh there's a
Speaker 1: bag of dope right down on your back seat.
Speaker 2: I can see now, CHERYLD, Can I just explain something.
Speaker 2: I've tried to come up with an easy way to
Speaker 2: explain it. And when I get to Delphi, I hope
Speaker 2: you join me on crime stories. But I can tell
Speaker 2: you where Cheryl mccomb's going to be. She's going to
Speaker 2: be at the meet in three because there is one
Speaker 2: around the courthouse that's right right, there is one. Ours
Speaker 2: was Megabar yes, do you remember Megabar? I do ernest
Speaker 2: and I lived at Megabar yep, my investigator because they
Speaker 2: had fresh turnips every day. Anyway, that said, that's where
Speaker 2: I'll find Cheryl. I might as well, you know what,
Speaker 2: I need to just go ahead and call production, tell
Speaker 2: them we're moving to the meet and three because we
Speaker 2: need Cheryl mccollumn. If she's not leaving until she gets
Speaker 2: that form bread, that is not happening.
Speaker 3: Listen, is going to be me and seventy five attorneys,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: Okay, And now for Cheryl and the meat and three
Speaker 2: and moving production. This is what I want to talk
Speaker 2: to you about. Just cycling a bullet through a gun,
Speaker 2: not firing it dense the bullet cycling is just the
Speaker 2: act of loading or unloading a round into the chamber.
Speaker 2: But what it does. It can cycling a bullet through
Speaker 2: a gun dense the bullet knows and that can be
Speaker 2: matched back like a fingerprint to the gun. It's microscope
Speaker 2: that you don't see it. The bullet still looks even
Speaker 2: shiny to you to the naked eye, just as a
Speaker 2: bullet that's been fired, unless has been you know, destroyed
Speaker 2: in some way, looks like you have to look under
Speaker 2: a microscope to see that in and those.
Speaker 3: Tool markings correct.
Speaker 2: So I'm anxious for that to come out. I need
Speaker 2: you to explain it for me when I get back
Speaker 2: to DELFI.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm waiting on that, and I'm telling you the
Speaker 1: placement where it was found is also critical.
Speaker 3: Between the two bodies.
Speaker 1: That to me is extraordinarily telling because that thing, when
Speaker 1: it's ejected, goes to the right and slightly back, so
Speaker 1: if it's between the two of them, he was pointing
Speaker 1: that gun.
Speaker 3: At one of them, who I believe was Abby.
Speaker 2: Why do you say, Abby, I'm curious. I don't disagree
Speaker 2: or agree. I'm just curious.
Speaker 1: Because if you're looking straight away, Abby's to the left,
Speaker 1: Libby's to the right, and he's right handed right in
Speaker 1: that bullets between them, so it would have ejected to
Speaker 1: the right and slightly back, landing between the two of them.
Speaker 2: You know, that makes perfect sense. Yesterday I was thinking
Speaker 2: last night, I focused a lot on the fact that
Speaker 2: Libby's injuries were so much worse than well, they're both
Speaker 2: slash dead their throats, so it's hard. It's like parsing words,
Speaker 2: you know, mincing, splitting hairs, but there was an absolute
Speaker 2: disregard leaving. In addition to the murder, leaving Libby unclothed.
Speaker 2: First slashes to her neck were worse. Just trying to
Speaker 2: figure out if she had been his object of desire,
Speaker 2: if she had been his target, maybe she could have
Speaker 2: been as simple as she brought back, or she said
Speaker 2: something back that made him angry. But just think about
Speaker 2: all the times he watched these girls come in and
Speaker 2: out of that pharmacy. Oh, this is what I'm waiting on.
Speaker 2: I'm waiting on the confessions because I guarantee you this
Speaker 2: guy revealed so much about the crime scene that was
Speaker 2: never stated publicly. I had. He's a great lawyer, Philip Debate,
Speaker 2: How can you argue, Philip Debate, what would be your
Speaker 2: argument as to why Alan became mentally impaired and started confessing. Okay,
Speaker 2: you're gonna love this. He said, because the jail is
Speaker 2: starving him by giving him processed food with attitudes in it.
Speaker 2: That he has gone something again to the twinkie defense,
Speaker 2: and he started confessing. Well, what I've learned is Cheryl
Speaker 2: that the killer and Delphi his family. Once he started
Speaker 2: confessing to them, his family began to turn against him,
Speaker 2: although they're showing up in court, and he thought that
Speaker 2: he would never be reunited with them in life and
Speaker 2: decided the only way you can get back with his
Speaker 2: family is in heaven. And to get to heaven he
Speaker 2: had to confess. Uh huh.
Speaker 1: But I want to ask one more thing, is is
Speaker 1: your old role as a prosecutor? When the police were
Speaker 1: talking to him before he knew there was a video,
Speaker 1: he described what he was wearing that day and described
Speaker 1: the blue jacket, jeans and a hat.
Speaker 2: Well, again it's the Scott Peterson placing yourself there. I
Speaker 2: mean he places himself at the scene of the crime,
Speaker 2: at the time of the crime. One thing I think
Speaker 2: is bothering the jury because I believe they asked a
Speaker 2: question about it. The jewors are actually getting to ask questions.
Speaker 2: They write them down, they give them to the judge,
Speaker 2: will to the bill. If the bill gives it to
Speaker 2: the judge. The lawyers meet, they turn on that static
Speaker 2: sound game so the jury can't hear them. If one
Speaker 2: or both have an objection, they lodge the objection. That
Speaker 2: goes on to the record. The judg decides if she
Speaker 2: is going to allow the question. Then she asked the questions.
Speaker 2: I believe that they are are curious about the lapse
Speaker 2: in the cell phone where the cell phone should no
Speaker 2: activity for a period of hours. Now, to me, it's
Speaker 2: pretty easy to understand because it's happened to me, where
Speaker 2: all of a sudden I get a torrent of text
Speaker 2: messages and they won day to back months and months
Speaker 2: and months of ke how can this be because it
Speaker 2: was obviously about something that was happening, like you know,
Speaker 2: just pretend my mom's birthday or day be getting the
Speaker 2: car fixed, something like that, and it was months later,
Speaker 2: I'm like, why is this coming now? That has actually happened.
Speaker 2: But more more often, I don't get texts for a
Speaker 2: period of minutes or hours that all of a sudden
Speaker 2: a string comes in and I don't know why that happens,
Speaker 2: but I know that it does happen. So somebody better
Speaker 2: get up there on the stand and explain that, because
Speaker 2: the defense is exploiting that by saying, well, her phone
Speaker 2: was turned off, or the bodies removed, or they were
Speaker 2: taken somewhere else in return to this location, which doesn't
Speaker 2: make any sense. Plus, the ground is saturated with blood
Speaker 2: where they were found, which means and that's where they
Speaker 2: were killed. But that could lead to some.
Speaker 3: Sort of doubt, Nancy.
Speaker 1: Everybody has had their phone get so hot the phone
Speaker 1: cuts itself down. If you go snowskin, it's the same principle.
Speaker 1: If it gets too cold, it's going to shut itself down.
Speaker 1: She was cold, they were wet. That phone could have
Speaker 1: literally powered down because of temperature.
Speaker 2: Yes, it could have. My phone powers down a lot
Speaker 2: when it's hot. You're right, Cheryl, I've never had the reverse.
Speaker 1: Right, but the reverse will be true. So again, you
Speaker 1: think that water, I mean that was melted snow.
Speaker 3: That water was freezing.
Speaker 1: So again, you've got wet clothes, you've got wet bodies,
Speaker 1: you've got wet ground.
Speaker 3: That's going to happen. I think you know.
Speaker 2: One of the witnesses got angry at the defense, lashed
Speaker 2: out on cross examination, and then it did not behoove
Speaker 2: the state at all. I wish that hadn't happened. I
Speaker 2: don't blame the witness, but that didn't work out well
Speaker 2: for the state. I think it led to some people
Speaker 2: believing the witness had credibility problems. The witness has said
Speaker 2: she saw the bridge guy muddy and then bloody and
Speaker 2: then muddy and bloody. Essentially, it's what happened. But when
Speaker 2: you see someone coming in mud and or blood, how
Speaker 2: do you differentiate between that at a.
Speaker 1: Distance, especially when you're not looking for anybody. Think how
Speaker 1: many people pass you every day. You're not looking at
Speaker 1: them as far as I better remember what they look like.
Speaker 1: It's only when somebody stands out what stood out to
Speaker 1: her is the appearance.
Speaker 3: So you can only get so much.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's happening in you know, hundreds of a second,
Speaker 1: You're like, there's a guy, he looks really bloody and muddy.
Speaker 3: It is. It's really weird. It's like the waist down.
Speaker 3: What would occur? Is he hurt?
Speaker 1: And then you're almost a little frightened. So you can
Speaker 1: only in your mind gather so much information, especially if
Speaker 1: you're not trained.
Speaker 3: To do that.
Speaker 2: You know, this blue Carharrent jacket six hour two twenty
Speaker 2: six forty caliber A forty S and W cartridge. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't keepsake box from indresser. Now what do you make
Speaker 2: of the item seized at his home?
Speaker 1: You know, I'm extremely curious about the motorcycle cover, wanting
Speaker 1: to hear why they took the aquapena bottle, but the
Speaker 1: twenty three devices. When you are telling me you're going
Speaker 1: to keep a pager, you're going.
Speaker 4: To keep flip phones, but you don't keep a phone
Speaker 4: that was associated with you being at the scene of
Speaker 4: a double murder of two children that you know has
Speaker 4: a GPS, has timestamp that can show Hey, in case
Speaker 4: y'all don't know exactly when I was there, here it is.
Speaker 1: And again he's claiming he was on the bridge. Well,
Speaker 1: he don't claim he saw another man anywhere. He doesn't
Speaker 1: claim he sees victims, Nancy. He only claims he sees
Speaker 1: the three girls that he knows live to identify him,
Speaker 1: because the other two didn't live to identify it.
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, through everything that's happening, I wonder why
Speaker 2: the jury is reacting. I mean, I know how the
Speaker 2: family's reacting, but what are they thinking. I would stop
Speaker 2: at the end of every day of trial. I would
Speaker 2: stand alone in front of the jury box and try
Speaker 2: to reconstruct what each jury are, how they behaved, and
Speaker 2: I would make a count at the end of every day. Okay,
Speaker 2: I think I've got this one. Aunt tell them about
Speaker 2: that one. This one's a problem, and whoever was a
Speaker 2: problem I would argue directly to them or ask questions
Speaker 2: looking at them, tried to connect with that is your
Speaker 2: r the whole next day. I mean, it's really it's
Speaker 2: an art and a science. Cheryl and and All. I
Speaker 2: always say, once you've got twelve of the box, your
Speaker 2: case is done.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you, I think the jury being able
Speaker 1: to ask questions.
Speaker 3: For you, you would.
Speaker 1: Be able to say, Okay, I know where they're headed
Speaker 1: because this is what they're asking, and you would be
Speaker 1: able on the fly to help them and navigate where
Speaker 1: they needed you to go. But I want to just
Speaker 1: say one more thing because I know you and I
Speaker 1: know how you would have ended this whole thing so far.
Speaker 1: Everybody in that town, and you and I have been
Speaker 1: to Delphi multiple time. Those posters, those composites were everywhere,
Speaker 1: every place you could eat, every hotel, every gas station,
Speaker 1: everybody in that town. When Kelsey put it out on
Speaker 1: social media showed up. You remember Grandma when she explained
Speaker 1: it looked like, you know, lightning bugs all through the woods.
Speaker 1: There were so many flashlights and people everybody in that
Speaker 1: town stopped what they were doing looking for those children.
Speaker 1: When Richard Allen, the police guide him and were talking
Speaker 1: to him.
Speaker 3: He got up and left.
Speaker 2: To me, is so clear, And when I read all
Speaker 2: these crazy conspiracy theories online, I just hope that's not
Speaker 2: infecting the jury. What do you know about where the
Speaker 2: jury is staying and how they're being handled.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything, but from what I've just heard
Speaker 1: of the people say that it's a very seamless event.
Speaker 1: They are picked up, they're put right there at the courthouse.
Speaker 1: They stayed pretty much there, Lunch is brought to them,
Speaker 1: and they're taken right back. They have very limited access
Speaker 1: to the outside vote.
Speaker 2: I know that one juror was unable to watch when
Speaker 2: new pictures were shown in court. I'm glad that jury
Speaker 2: is facing strict rules. I know it's a pain in
Speaker 2: the behind, but strict rules regarding what they can watch,
Speaker 2: where they can go, because the last thing you want
Speaker 2: is a problem with the jury. Look what it's done
Speaker 2: in Murdoch. I mean, I do not believe that Becky
Speaker 2: Hill swayed the jury. Do I think she may have
Speaker 2: said inappropriate comments like hey, y'all going to reach the
Speaker 2: quick verdict? He he things of that nature. I don't think
Speaker 2: it affected the outcome of the trial. But I think
Speaker 2: out of the to avoid the appearance of impropriety, that
Speaker 2: there's going to have to be a new trial because
Speaker 2: of jury misheddling, even in an innocent way, not intended
Speaker 2: to hurt the jury, not intended to sway that you're
Speaker 2: but it happened. We don't want that in Delphi. We
Speaker 2: do not want that in Delphi.
Speaker 3: That's right. Absolutely. I want to ask you one more thing.
Speaker 3: I have a theory about the phone.
Speaker 1: So Abby is wearing Libby's pants, right, and they're wet
Speaker 1: because there's no way to get wet pants back on
Speaker 1: somebody that is their pants.
Speaker 3: So she's smaller, so that can happen.
Speaker 1: I believe that phone was in that back pocket and
Speaker 1: when he drug her into position, it simply came out
Speaker 1: of the back pocket.
Speaker 2: Oh, that reminds me of something one of this year
Speaker 2: ars asked the question was the earth and or the
Speaker 2: leaves under I guess it was Abby's body disturbed? Now
Speaker 2: why did they want to know that?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 1: I think it goes to what I'm saying. Was she
Speaker 1: drug so if the earth under her was disturbed, they
Speaker 1: would be able to know that. So was she put
Speaker 1: into place? Was he staging the scene. Is that why
Speaker 1: they're two feet from the blood. So again, if those
Speaker 1: pants were put on her deliberately, because remember they were
Speaker 1: unbuttoned on zipped, she didn't hike that way.
Speaker 3: So again, it looks like to me that's what would.
Speaker 1: Have occurred, that he's putting them where he wants them
Speaker 1: to stage that sin.
Speaker 2: Agree, Okay, Cheryl, I'll see in Delphi. We knew it
Speaker 2: was coming, now it's here.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see you, and I know the
Speaker 1: family is grateful you're coming.
Speaker 3: Bye friend, Bye Bebby