WEBVTT - $100 To Fill up Your Tank? Some Drivers Say No Thanks 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:09.639 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. I was reporting in 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:12.639 San Francisco yesterday and went passed the service station where 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.080 the cheapest getass was six dollars and a sixty one 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.920 cents a gallon, which translates into about one hundred dollars 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.320 to fill your average car. 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.360 California has some of the most expensive gas in the country, 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:28.040 but since the US and Israel attacked Iran in late February, 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:30.479 the average cost of a gallon of gas in the 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:34.920 US has steadily climbed. It's now nearly four dollars a gallon, 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.600 up from a five year low. As oil and gas 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.960 supplies are disrupted and conflict continues in the Middle East, 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.080 Bloomberg reporters Todd Woody and oxshot Roti are tracking how 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:49.560 consumers around the world are starting to feel the effects. 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.680 European gas prices have gone up thirty, sixty, even one 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:58.520 hundred percent, depending on where it's being consumed in Europe. 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.600 The worst hit, I will say, are Asian economies, places 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:09.080 like Pakistan, which depend a lot on LNG coming from Qatar, Bangladesh, Japan, 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.000 South Korea, even China. 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:16.160 To some extent, President Donald Trump has been sending mixed 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:18.959 signals about whether the war with Iran is going to 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.479 drag on or nearing its end. 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:24.160 We have a very serious yesse of making a deal 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:25.760 that doesn't guarantee anything. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:27.080 I'm not guaranteeing anything. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.040 On Monday morning, Trump posted that the US has been 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.280 having quote very good and productive conversations with Iran about 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.080 a resolution to the war, and that he had instructed 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.320 the Department of Defense to postpone strikes on Iranian power 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.000 plants and energy infrastructure for the next five days. The 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:48.240 price of oil dropped on that news. Then Iranian media 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.680 reported that there are no talks between Tehran and Washington. 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:56.240 Oil prices climbed a bit. The turbulence in the oil 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.640 and gas market and uncertainty over how high prices may 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:04.400 climb has gotten some people thinking about energy alternatives. 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.919 I think one thing that's hard to really know quantify 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:12.160 is what is the psychological effect of these wars, And 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.000 this is the general instability and chaos over the last 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.440 couple of years, regardless of whether they see really high 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:20.880 gas prices at the moment, they think and really should 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.400 get ready for the future. And my relation beats so 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.120 dependent on energy systems that could really drive up my bills. 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.400 I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.960 Bloomberg News today on the show, how shocks to the 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.720 oil and gas market are driving interest in electric vehicles 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.480 and solar panels, and what prolonged conflict in the Middle 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:56.520 East could mean for the future of renewable energy. Akshat Todd, 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:59.679 you've both written about how people are responding to these 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.639 high higher oil and gas prices and these chalking headlines 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.440 about the potential for them to get even higher. Some 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.400 of these people are taking it as a sign to 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.480 think about weaning off gas and go out and get 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:15.200 an electric vehicle. Todd, what has your reporting found about 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.680 the spike and interest in evs and where is it 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:18.200 showing up. 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.040 There's definitely been a big spike in searches for evs 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.480 and hybrid cars since February twenty eighth. We don't have 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.680 sales data yet, no, if that's translating that and doylically, 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:32.359 people are more people showing up the dealerships to check 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:36.000 out the cars. But economists I've spoken to say that 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:38.720 people tend to really pay attention to the gas prices 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:42.280 around the time they're thinking about buying a car, So 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:46.040 that could change. If these prices become sustained over a 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.360 period of months, then you might get people thinking, oh, 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.320 maybe I should switch to an EV versus having that 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:55.360 as an option of the time they need to replace 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:55.800 their car. 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:00.760 The story, I think is more attractive for a drivers 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:04.600 because regardless of the price of oil, uptake of EV's 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:09.240 has been higher in many Asian countries than even European 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.600 or American markets, and I think that is likely to accelerate. 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:18.080 We've had reporting from our colleagues in Asia showing that yes, again, 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.240 number of people showing up to showrooms has gone up, 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.000 but actually some of the early sales figures that we're 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.760 getting from anecdotes are showing that numbers of cars electric 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.799 cars being sold has doubled or even tripled in some markets. 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.680 One of the things that could shape our understanding of 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.920 how this oil price hike might affect the EV market 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.520 is looking back to history. Right after Russia invaded Ukraine, 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.919 for example, oil prices spiked, were more people looking to 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:44.400 buy evs in the US? 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.320 And did they? There was about a sixty six percent 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.400 spike in sales in twenty twenty two. I think it 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:54.360 was probably a bigger shock. Also because gas prices had 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.720 been low before that time, and so when they really 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.279 shot up in twenty twenty two, people really switched to 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.080 EV's and at the time there was seventy five hundred 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.599 dollars federal tax credit for the cars. I think one 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.440 factor that's different this time around is that there's increasing 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:13.799 supply of used evs, which are quite cheap because evs 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:18.159 have a huge creation loss after they're sold, so it's 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.400 quite possible to buy a used DV for like thirty 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.840 thousand dollars that's two or three years old. I think 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:26.760 that's probably going to drive sales as well. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:29.840 This new consumer interest in evs is coming at a 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:33.120 rough moment for the EV industry. The Trump administration let 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.560 the EV tax credit expire. We've seen some auto companies 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.919 walk back their plans for EV investment as sales were lagging. 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:45.200 How big of an opportunity then, does this moment represent 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:46.160 for these businesses. 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.840 I'm a makers have long time spans, so they're not 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:52.840 going to change their plans because of a spike and 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.400 oil prices. Gasoline prices right now, I meant that it 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.320 was sustained for a much longer period of time, but 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:04.279 they've just taken huge charges against their EV businesses to 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:09.080 discontinue some models and reconfigure factories. So I don't believe 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:12.320 they're going to turn on a dime. They say there's 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.720 sufficient supply BB's right now, so it doesn't seem to 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:17.000 be an issue, and I don't think you're going to 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.800 see them US manufacturers at least change their plans immediately. 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:25.000 What about in markets like in Asia Akshat, where there's 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.960 a different story playing out. How might this change longer 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:29.400 term plans for those companies. 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:31.920 So we are already seeing one of our colleagues went 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:35.640 to a car dealership saying that our waiting list is 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:39.440 growing and our biggest challenge now is ensuring that we 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:43.479 get enough supply. Now that anecdote also is reflected in 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:47.240 stock prices. We've seen Asian electric car or stock prices 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.760 really rise over the last month. So there is clearly 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:55.440 a growth story for Asian electric car makers that I 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.640 suspect the European automakers, if not the American ones, will 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.440 be looking at and they might factor that into their 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:07.600 longer term decisions. Because we are seeing the Asian automakers 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.320 start to take on parts of the market that used 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.960 to belong to the Japanese, to the European, the American 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:16.720 auto companies. 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:18.800 Well, I also want to talk about some of the 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.400 other ways consumers might be shifting their habits or thinking 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.960 about shifting their habits to adapt to rising energy costs. 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.840 Are you seeing people look into alternative ways to heat, cool, 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:32.360 and power their homes. 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.400 To some extent, So we have reporting here in the 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:38.160 UK and in Germany again to places that have in 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:43.160 recent years seen power prices spike because of gas prices spiking, 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:48.480 and there has been more awareness among the people that 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.440 there are alternatives available in heat pumps, in rooftop solar, 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.920 and so we've seen something like a thirty percent increase 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:00.960 in interest among buyers for these products. But there is 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.720 still a challenge that there are not enough installers. People 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.520 are still not aware of the quirks of moving from 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.360 a boiler to a heat pump. They don't know whether 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.640 they'll be able to get repairs done as easily as 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.400 when the boiler breaks down because there are more boiler 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.680 engineers available to fix things. So there is still a 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.440 public education that needs to happen. But power prices do 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.600 factor in do their decisions, and again, like in the 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.720 EV story. If you're about to replace your gas boiler 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.600 because it's old, now this would be the moment to 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:35.720 speed up that decision. 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.720 Todd, how might people's calculus around buying an EV or 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:44.920 installing a solar panel changed? The longer this conflict goes on. 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.200 They will be knock on effects. So right now, no 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.400 one's going to go spend fifty thousand dollars on a 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.840 solar array on their house, even if they're sort of 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.760 nervous about the future. However, if people start to buy 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.800 more evs, what tends to happen is they charge at home, 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.240 discover electricity bills getting up thirty percent. That's when they 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.040 get solar. So the solar installers that I talk to 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.520 expect that to happen. Is it happens in the past 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.400 when people buy cars. Then once they put on the 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:15.280 solar panels, then they go, oh, I actually get a 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.360 heat pump because then basically powering everything from the sun. 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:21.400 So if prices stay high for a month's on end 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.320 and there's definitely a spike in EV sales, you're probably 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.480 seeing down their line a spotic in solar installations and 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.400 heat pumps and other electrical devices as they replace natural 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:34.120 gas appliances. 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:37.920 Coming up as the price of oil surges, the math 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:49.120 on renewable energy is changing for governments around the world. 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.160 We've talked about how consumers and companies are responding to 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:59.839 the high price of gas right now and these energy 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.320 price spikes, but akshot, how do you see governments thinking 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.880 about this moment as it relates to energy policy at 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:07.920 a high level. Are we at the point yet where 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.640 leaders are looking to shore up alternative energy infrastructure or 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.280 are they more focused on finding other ways to bring 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:15.280 gas prices down. 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.920 It really does depend on country to country. If you're 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:24.040 a country that is immensely dependent on importing almost all 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:28.480 of your fossil fuels, then yes, you are looking for alternatives. 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.360 In other countries, like in India and China, for example, 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:35.240 where there is an alternative available to gas in coal, 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.880 you will see increase in coalburn. We saw that during 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.760 the last gas price crisis after Russia attack Ukraine that 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.560 coalburn went up in India, it went up in China. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.480 But it's only available to the countries that have coal 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.120 in their mix, and so we are going to start 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:57.040 to see governments make those choices. Now, do they make 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.320 policies that last long and do they make policy that 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:04.679 would sustain the momentum for these clean energy products. That 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:05.720 remains to be seen. 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:11.120 Did we see this dynamic after Russia invaded Ukraine in 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.280 twenty twenty two, and how long did the interest and 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.880 alternative energies last at the consumer level? 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.080 At a country level, we can see the data and 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:23.079 it's actually quite clear because what happened in Europe specifically 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.320 is that there was a concerted understanding among governments that 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.600 they want to get rid of their dependence on Russian 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.280 fossil fuels, and they had really three options in front 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.240 of them. Try and get fossil fuel from other places 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.200 like the US, which would come in the form of 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.680 liquified natural gas, which is more expensive, and so they did, 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:43.800 and they paid a lot of money for that. Cut 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.480 the use of gas, which also they did some of 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.640 the industry shut down, but really households also reduced their 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.320 gas use. But it's really this is the first type 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:56.839 of energy crisis where there's this third option of going 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:01.400 to clean energy, and Europe really did to pull off 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:06.320 an accelerated deployment of renewables in that time. So bluemackenniaf 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.439 data that we've looked at showed something like a forty 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:14.040 percent spike in solar panel deployment the year after the 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.760 Ukraine crisis in twenty twenty three. And it's not a 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.360 story that just remained in Europe. We also saw this 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.800 happen in developing countries. So Pakistan has had some of 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:30.240 the most spectacular growth in solar and then a year 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.200 later in batteries purely driven by a gas price spike. 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.439 What does history tell us about how long or how 0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:41.040 quickly these energy adaptations can happen and how long they 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.320 can help countries be resilient. 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.560 So one of the things that analysts always complain about 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.239 is that countries tend to forget the lessons of a crisis. 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:56.200 So solar installations in Europe have largely plataued from the 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.680 time when they spiked after Russia attacked Ukraine. We also know, 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.320 for example, in Pakistan, despite this amazing rollout of solar 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.840 and batteries, it's actually causing all sorts of problems on 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.640 the grid because suddenly people are producing so much of 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.040 their own power that they're consuming less from the utility, 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.080 and the utility has all these fixed assets in the 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.040 grid in power plants that it is built that it 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.640 needs to find ways to pay for and it currently doesn't. 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.800 So now the utility is looking to lobby the government 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.560 to slow down this rollout of solar that is happening 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:34.400 in the country, which is essentially a chaotic transition rather 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.080 than a much more planned one. 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.640 So there are all these reasons governments could be moving 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:43.040 towards clean energy right now. The US, though, appears to 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:47.199 be doubling down on oil. The Trump administration temporarily lifted 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.920 sanctions on Russian oil already in transit, it's releasing more 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:55.400 petroleum from the strategic Reserve. What could the longer term 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.200 effects of these kinds of moves be? Does it further 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.600 solidify the US's reliance on fossil fuels even in the 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.160 midst of these energy price shocks. 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:08.439 So these are short term measures to try and tame 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.080 the price of oil. When the strait of horm moves 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:14.680 has been closed for three weeks, something like eight million 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:18.679 barrels a day of oil supply is not available. That 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.680 is about eight percent of global oil supply. We know 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.320 prices are rising as a result, So what can you 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.240 do in the short term While you can try and 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.800 inject some of that available oil outside of the Strait 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.160 of horm moves into the system. So taking off sanctions 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.960 from Russian oil allows for that. The strategic Petroleum Reserve, 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.280 which exists now in many countries because the International Energy 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.760 Agency was created after an oil crisis specifically with the 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.880 goal of having this reserve to avoid dealing with these 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.280 kinds of crises, is being tapped, but it is also 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.960 still very limited. It might provide maybe two hundred days 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.200 worth of oil supply if everything is to happen. That's 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.800 covering you for a few months. There's also some conversation 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.840 now to try and remove sanctions on Iranian oil that 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.600 again will help you tame some of it for some time. 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:15.840 Those are all short term fixes that will run out eventually. 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:18.960 I just want to pause and reflect for a second 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.920 that we've been talking almost exclusively about the economic motivations 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:27.760 driving the adoption of renewable energy, not the environmental benefits, 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:29.800 and that strikes me as a big shift from the 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.600 conversation even a few years ago. 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:37.080 One hundred percent because in the initial parts of trying 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.920 to build the energy transition and clean energy products solar 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.320 and wind power and batteries and electric cars were just 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.680 a lot more expensive than the alternative, and so governments 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.920 had to find ways to subsidize it force either states 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.640 or their own grides to become cleaner. And those were 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.960 just expensive ways of trying to get to a place 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.800 where we are now, where these clean energy products are 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:06.800 cheap and are affordable and are even the economic option 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.360 for you. And so we are seeing an adoption at 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.800 a level that is driven by economics first and climate 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.120 second that we hadn't seen in the past. 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.600 This is The Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder. 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.560 To get more from The Big Take and unlimited access 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.479 to all of Bloomberg dot com, subscribe today at Bloomberg 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.000 dot com slash podcast offer. If you liked this episode, 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:37.760 make sure to subscribe and review The Big Take wherever 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.680 you listen to podcasts. It helps people find the show. 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.480 Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:46.240 Thank you.