1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,116 --> 00:00:34,076 Speaker 2: I was basically like steadily marching down the path to 3 00:00:34,236 --> 00:00:37,436 Speaker 2: what I thought was the good, successful life. Take the 4 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:42,476 Speaker 2: high status sounding job and just put your head down, 5 00:00:42,756 --> 00:00:44,636 Speaker 2: and if you do that for long enough, you'll wake 6 00:00:44,716 --> 00:00:45,956 Speaker 2: up and you'll have made a bunch of money. 7 00:00:45,996 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 3: You'll be happy, fulfilled, etc. 8 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:52,876 Speaker 1: Sawhill Bloom spent years working as a financial advisor, putting 9 00:00:52,916 --> 00:00:56,876 Speaker 1: in long hours and cashing huge paychecks. But even though 10 00:00:56,916 --> 00:01:00,916 Speaker 1: he'd found career success, he wasn't happy. He started to 11 00:01:00,996 --> 00:01:04,156 Speaker 1: question whether the life he was building was actually what 12 00:01:04,276 --> 00:01:04,836 Speaker 1: he wanted. 13 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:09,996 Speaker 2: My entire definition of success, of what it meant to 14 00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 2: build a wealthy life had been incomplete. I was prioritizing 15 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:16,836 Speaker 2: one thing at the expense of everything else. 16 00:01:20,876 --> 00:01:23,956 Speaker 1: On today's show, hitting pause on the rat race, and 17 00:01:23,996 --> 00:01:29,396 Speaker 1: defining success on your own terms. I'm Maya Schunker, a 18 00:01:29,436 --> 00:01:33,076 Speaker 1: scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a slight 19 00:01:33,196 --> 00:01:35,956 Speaker 1: change of plans, a show about who we are and 20 00:01:35,996 --> 00:01:42,956 Speaker 1: who we become in the face of a big change. 21 00:01:47,996 --> 00:01:50,356 Speaker 1: When was the last time you checked in with yourself 22 00:01:50,396 --> 00:01:53,036 Speaker 1: and asked if you were really living out your values? 23 00:01:53,676 --> 00:01:57,236 Speaker 1: Today's conversation is about questioning your beliefs and being more 24 00:01:57,276 --> 00:02:00,836 Speaker 1: intentional about what you prioritize. These are the kinds of 25 00:02:00,876 --> 00:02:04,676 Speaker 1: ideas that Sahil explores in his book The Five Types 26 00:02:04,716 --> 00:02:09,316 Speaker 1: of Wealth, A Transformative Guide to Design your Dream Life. 27 00:02:09,516 --> 00:02:13,076 Speaker 1: Growing up saw Hill saw firsthand the value of defying 28 00:02:13,156 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 1: social norms and challenging other people's expectations. 29 00:02:16,956 --> 00:02:20,876 Speaker 2: My parents came from very different backgrounds in worlds. My 30 00:02:20,956 --> 00:02:23,556 Speaker 2: mom was born and raised in India. Her father was 31 00:02:23,556 --> 00:02:27,036 Speaker 2: a professor, my father was raised in the Bronx, New York, 32 00:02:27,436 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 2: and the collision of their lives was a very unlikely one. 33 00:02:32,156 --> 00:02:35,756 Speaker 2: My mom had applied in secret to come to university 34 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:39,516 Speaker 2: in the US, my dad was finishing his dissertation, and 35 00:02:39,596 --> 00:02:41,516 Speaker 2: my mom was working in the library at the school 36 00:02:41,556 --> 00:02:43,636 Speaker 2: to kind of pay her way through program that she 37 00:02:43,636 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 2: had applied to, and the two of them connecting and 38 00:02:47,916 --> 00:02:51,756 Speaker 2: building a kind of thriving love and relationship was just 39 00:02:51,876 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 2: extraordinarily unlikely, and it was an example of them choosing 40 00:02:57,556 --> 00:03:00,676 Speaker 2: to create their own path rather than accept one by default. 41 00:03:01,236 --> 00:03:03,676 Speaker 2: My dad's father was not accepting of the idea of 42 00:03:03,716 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 2: his son marrying an Indian woman and told him that 43 00:03:06,916 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 2: he had to choose between his family and her, and 44 00:03:09,956 --> 00:03:11,996 Speaker 2: my dad walked out the door and never saw his 45 00:03:12,036 --> 00:03:15,036 Speaker 2: family again. To this day, I never met my dad's parents. 46 00:03:15,596 --> 00:03:18,356 Speaker 2: He has three siblings I never met all through this 47 00:03:18,556 --> 00:03:22,436 Speaker 2: decision to choose love over the conventional path that was 48 00:03:22,476 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 2: handed to them. 49 00:03:23,676 --> 00:03:24,836 Speaker 3: And so I would say, if there. 50 00:03:24,676 --> 00:03:27,916 Speaker 2: Was one value that was more important than any other 51 00:03:28,156 --> 00:03:32,196 Speaker 2: in our family, it was the idea of independent thinking, 52 00:03:32,716 --> 00:03:37,716 Speaker 2: of cultivating an environment to question things and not feel 53 00:03:38,556 --> 00:03:42,996 Speaker 2: apprehensive or any degree of shame associated with that questioning. 54 00:03:43,636 --> 00:03:47,836 Speaker 2: But that's a difficult thing to understand or internalize as 55 00:03:47,876 --> 00:03:48,236 Speaker 2: a kid. 56 00:03:48,956 --> 00:03:52,876 Speaker 1: It is a really difficult thing to internalize. And in 57 00:03:52,916 --> 00:03:55,596 Speaker 1: your case, you know, despite these values at home, you 58 00:03:55,716 --> 00:03:58,396 Speaker 1: still grew up very eager to achieve right. You were 59 00:03:58,396 --> 00:04:02,156 Speaker 1: still influenced by other social pressures. And this was in 60 00:04:02,236 --> 00:04:06,956 Speaker 1: part because your older sister was very academically gifted and 61 00:04:07,556 --> 00:04:09,916 Speaker 1: received lots of praise from teachers. 62 00:04:10,316 --> 00:04:13,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunately, I would say, from a young age, I 63 00:04:13,636 --> 00:04:17,636 Speaker 2: started telling myself a story that I was not capable 64 00:04:17,876 --> 00:04:21,556 Speaker 2: of the same level of achievement academically as my sister. 65 00:04:22,076 --> 00:04:24,876 Speaker 2: There were a couple of instances, first second grade whatever 66 00:04:24,916 --> 00:04:27,636 Speaker 2: it would be, where I would get to a class 67 00:04:27,636 --> 00:04:29,876 Speaker 2: they would say, oh, your Sonali's brother, Like all this 68 00:04:30,036 --> 00:04:31,396 Speaker 2: hope and excitement that I was going to be the 69 00:04:31,476 --> 00:04:34,196 Speaker 2: next star student. And then I was kind of into like, 70 00:04:34,596 --> 00:04:36,756 Speaker 2: you know, dicking around for lack of a better word, 71 00:04:36,796 --> 00:04:38,476 Speaker 2: it said. I was like, you know, I was a kid. 72 00:04:38,556 --> 00:04:43,316 Speaker 2: I was really active, I was really rambunctious, and I 73 00:04:43,356 --> 00:04:46,236 Speaker 2: would inevitably sort of disappoint this teacher. And I could 74 00:04:46,316 --> 00:04:47,836 Speaker 2: see it in them and in the way that they 75 00:04:47,836 --> 00:04:49,476 Speaker 2: treated me and acted, and the things they would say 76 00:04:49,476 --> 00:04:52,876 Speaker 2: to my parents and whatnot. And it started cementing in 77 00:04:52,956 --> 00:04:54,996 Speaker 2: me this story that I would tell myself that I 78 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:56,796 Speaker 2: wasn't that smart, that I had to be good at 79 00:04:56,836 --> 00:04:58,516 Speaker 2: something else because my sister was the. 80 00:04:58,436 --> 00:05:00,316 Speaker 3: Smart one and I wasn't. 81 00:05:00,796 --> 00:05:04,796 Speaker 2: And those stories that you tell yourself are really hard 82 00:05:04,836 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 2: to break. 83 00:05:05,596 --> 00:05:09,876 Speaker 1: Absolutely, it sounds like you grew up in a home 84 00:05:09,996 --> 00:05:13,676 Speaker 1: where it was very clear giving your parents values that 85 00:05:14,596 --> 00:05:17,156 Speaker 1: their love for you is not contingent upon your success, 86 00:05:17,316 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 1: and they valued free thinking and they valued independent thinking. 87 00:05:20,556 --> 00:05:24,196 Speaker 1: And so how interesting is it that even in an 88 00:05:24,276 --> 00:05:28,476 Speaker 1: environment like that, we can grow up feeling the need 89 00:05:28,516 --> 00:05:31,796 Speaker 1: to prove our value in specific ways, to anchor it 90 00:05:31,836 --> 00:05:35,236 Speaker 1: to a form of success or wealth or what have you. 91 00:05:35,356 --> 00:05:37,516 Speaker 1: It's not like you grew up in a family where 92 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:40,036 Speaker 1: your parents were like, this is what you need to 93 00:05:40,076 --> 00:05:42,236 Speaker 1: be valuable to us, they weren't saying that, And I 94 00:05:42,276 --> 00:05:47,916 Speaker 1: just think it shows how pervasive this need for self 95 00:05:47,996 --> 00:05:48,956 Speaker 1: validation is. 96 00:05:49,396 --> 00:05:52,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially when you're young, because so much of your 97 00:05:52,316 --> 00:05:55,796 Speaker 2: identity is being established in those young years around how 98 00:05:55,876 --> 00:05:59,076 Speaker 2: other people react to things that you are doing. And 99 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:04,276 Speaker 2: I think that when you see those first pieces of 100 00:06:04,356 --> 00:06:08,596 Speaker 2: evidence of what the scoreboard is, then you're kind of like, Okay, 101 00:06:08,596 --> 00:06:11,796 Speaker 2: here's the thing that's going to build the evidence bank 102 00:06:12,076 --> 00:06:14,556 Speaker 2: of what my identity is and who I am. So 103 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:16,396 Speaker 2: there's a little bit of like an addicting thing of 104 00:06:16,436 --> 00:06:19,836 Speaker 2: what you measure, you know, really mattering, because that's where 105 00:06:19,836 --> 00:06:22,156 Speaker 2: you can make progress. That's the video game, if you will, 106 00:06:22,396 --> 00:06:24,516 Speaker 2: that we're going to play life around in this family. 107 00:06:24,916 --> 00:06:27,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you eventually figured out what your lane was, 108 00:06:27,836 --> 00:06:29,236 Speaker 1: right you were like, Okay, maybe I'm never going to 109 00:06:29,276 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 1: be as good as Sonali academically, but I'm good at sports. 110 00:06:32,516 --> 00:06:36,356 Speaker 1: And you ended up getting a baseball scholarship you intended Stanford, 111 00:06:36,596 --> 00:06:39,956 Speaker 1: huge achievement. Take me back to that time. What role 112 00:06:40,036 --> 00:06:42,676 Speaker 1: did baseball play when it came to shaping your identity? 113 00:06:43,916 --> 00:06:45,836 Speaker 3: Hard to overstate how much. 114 00:06:47,276 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 2: My own self worth was defined around these baseball achievements. 115 00:06:50,196 --> 00:06:53,796 Speaker 2: I basically grew to define my own worth around the 116 00:06:53,956 --> 00:06:57,236 Speaker 2: sort of external affirmations that I could accumulate in any 117 00:06:57,236 --> 00:07:00,156 Speaker 2: one thing, and baseball I found to be a very 118 00:07:00,196 --> 00:07:04,316 Speaker 2: good conduit for accumulating external affirmations, a sport that's very popular. 119 00:07:04,676 --> 00:07:07,236 Speaker 2: Getting a Division one scholarship was like a big deal. 120 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:09,116 Speaker 2: A bunch of people would think you were really impressed. 121 00:07:09,356 --> 00:07:13,636 Speaker 2: You would get attention from different people, and every single 122 00:07:13,676 --> 00:07:16,836 Speaker 2: time you got one external affirmation, it made you hungrier 123 00:07:16,876 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 2: to get the next one and the bigger one and 124 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:19,316 Speaker 2: whatever it was. 125 00:07:19,356 --> 00:07:20,836 Speaker 3: So it's self fulfilling as well. 126 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 1: Totally. 127 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:25,596 Speaker 2: The problem with those things is that they further cement 128 00:07:25,996 --> 00:07:30,596 Speaker 2: this narrowness of identity as you do that, where every 129 00:07:30,836 --> 00:07:33,196 Speaker 2: single one of the pats on the back that you 130 00:07:33,276 --> 00:07:37,316 Speaker 2: are getting makes you more and more convinced that that 131 00:07:37,476 --> 00:07:40,716 Speaker 2: is who you are and that that is what you 132 00:07:41,156 --> 00:07:42,396 Speaker 2: need to continue doing. 133 00:07:42,396 --> 00:07:45,996 Speaker 3: That is the only path. And that really did happen 134 00:07:46,036 --> 00:07:46,236 Speaker 3: to me. 135 00:07:48,116 --> 00:07:52,116 Speaker 1: Your baseball career ended earlier than expected, and I'm curious 136 00:07:52,156 --> 00:07:54,316 Speaker 1: about how you personally handled that transition. 137 00:07:54,996 --> 00:07:56,356 Speaker 3: It was challenging for me. 138 00:07:56,436 --> 00:07:59,516 Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, I thought for many years 139 00:07:59,516 --> 00:08:03,396 Speaker 2: that I would play professionally. I hurt my shoulder summer 140 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 2: after my sophomore year. I had one game when I 141 00:08:06,756 --> 00:08:08,636 Speaker 2: was pitching and just felt something in the back of 142 00:08:08,636 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 2: my shoulder and didn't really think anything of it. 143 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:13,356 Speaker 3: And basically, over the course of two years, it just. 144 00:08:13,236 --> 00:08:15,236 Speaker 2: Got worse and worse, and it got to the point 145 00:08:15,276 --> 00:08:18,116 Speaker 2: where I just couldn't throw effectively anymore. 146 00:08:18,156 --> 00:08:18,916 Speaker 3: At that level. 147 00:08:19,636 --> 00:08:23,156 Speaker 2: And the hardest part of that entire transition was calling 148 00:08:23,196 --> 00:08:28,036 Speaker 2: my dad. So much of my and our relationship over 149 00:08:28,156 --> 00:08:32,236 Speaker 2: the twenty years leading up to that was built around baseball. 150 00:08:32,756 --> 00:08:35,036 Speaker 2: I thought of him as like the dad who came 151 00:08:35,036 --> 00:08:37,236 Speaker 2: home from work after a long day and he would 152 00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:39,116 Speaker 2: always have the energy to go outside with me and 153 00:08:39,156 --> 00:08:41,356 Speaker 2: play cash in the backyard. He was the one that 154 00:08:41,396 --> 00:08:42,956 Speaker 2: took me to all my lessons. He was the one 155 00:08:42,996 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 2: that coached my little league teams. He was the one 156 00:08:44,836 --> 00:08:46,596 Speaker 2: that showed up to all of my high school games. 157 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:49,076 Speaker 2: He flew out to all of my college games. I mean, 158 00:08:49,116 --> 00:08:51,796 Speaker 2: he was my number one supporter in everything that I 159 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:55,636 Speaker 2: was doing. And before I called him to let him 160 00:08:55,636 --> 00:08:57,516 Speaker 2: know that I was going to not be able to play, 161 00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:00,396 Speaker 2: I had this fear that he was going to be disappointed. 162 00:09:00,836 --> 00:09:02,716 Speaker 2: And I called him and I was in tears, and 163 00:09:02,756 --> 00:09:05,396 Speaker 2: I told him, you know, I can't play anymore. 164 00:09:05,396 --> 00:09:06,036 Speaker 3: I can't throw. 165 00:09:06,556 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 2: And he was like, I'll be there to you with 166 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:13,316 Speaker 2: whatever's next, Like whatever your next thing is, I'll be 167 00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:17,956 Speaker 2: in the front row. And there was so much power 168 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:21,156 Speaker 2: in so few words that he had said there, because 169 00:09:21,156 --> 00:09:24,796 Speaker 2: it was just a reminder that he did not think 170 00:09:24,836 --> 00:09:27,516 Speaker 2: of me as a baseball player. It was like that 171 00:09:27,636 --> 00:09:30,996 Speaker 2: identity maybe was something that I had convinced myself that 172 00:09:30,996 --> 00:09:34,116 Speaker 2: that's who I was, but he didn't. I was his son, 173 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:35,956 Speaker 2: and he would support me in whatever it was that 174 00:09:36,036 --> 00:09:37,876 Speaker 2: I was off and doing. He was going to be 175 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 2: in the front row of whatever that was. It was 176 00:09:39,596 --> 00:09:41,356 Speaker 2: a baseball field, now it's going to be something else, 177 00:09:41,356 --> 00:09:42,316 Speaker 2: and I'm going to be there for that. 178 00:09:43,796 --> 00:09:47,316 Speaker 1: Yeah. It is interesting how often we can impose beliefs 179 00:09:47,316 --> 00:09:49,636 Speaker 1: on other people that they don't actually carry right, that 180 00:09:49,716 --> 00:09:52,756 Speaker 1: aren't rooted in facts. You know, in your book, you 181 00:09:52,796 --> 00:09:56,116 Speaker 1: write about how you attended college with a bunch of 182 00:09:56,196 --> 00:10:00,876 Speaker 1: high achievers who measured success by who got the highest 183 00:10:00,876 --> 00:10:05,436 Speaker 1: offer from Goldman Sachs or from McKinsey, and you know, 184 00:10:05,636 --> 00:10:09,916 Speaker 1: those norms affected you, right, You really internalize belief that 185 00:10:10,516 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 1: money leads to happiness, and as a result of that, 186 00:10:15,076 --> 00:10:19,196 Speaker 1: when you graduated, you reached out to the richest people 187 00:10:19,276 --> 00:10:22,396 Speaker 1: you knew and found out what they did and then thought, Okay, 188 00:10:22,476 --> 00:10:24,756 Speaker 1: I'm going to do the same thing. And that is 189 00:10:24,876 --> 00:10:27,596 Speaker 1: ultimately what led you to become a financial advisor. 190 00:10:28,196 --> 00:10:28,396 Speaker 3: Yeah. 191 00:10:28,436 --> 00:10:31,156 Speaker 2: I spent those first seven years of my career after 192 00:10:31,196 --> 00:10:35,356 Speaker 2: I got done in school basically like steadily marching down 193 00:10:35,396 --> 00:10:37,676 Speaker 2: the path to what I thought was the like good 194 00:10:37,716 --> 00:10:42,516 Speaker 2: successful life. You know, take the high status sounding job 195 00:10:43,036 --> 00:10:45,956 Speaker 2: and just put your head down, and if you do 196 00:10:46,036 --> 00:10:48,036 Speaker 2: that for long enough, you'll wake up and everything will 197 00:10:48,076 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 2: be good. You'll have made a bunch of money, you'll 198 00:10:49,516 --> 00:10:51,156 Speaker 2: be happy, fulfilled, et cetera. 199 00:10:51,716 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 3: And all on the way. 200 00:10:54,716 --> 00:10:58,436 Speaker 2: I felt like there was this tendency to make my 201 00:10:58,516 --> 00:11:03,916 Speaker 2: happiness conditional on some end, Like every year, I'd convince 202 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:05,916 Speaker 2: myself that, like, oh, I'm going to feel totally different 203 00:11:05,916 --> 00:11:08,556 Speaker 2: December thirtieth when my bonus comes in. I'm going to 204 00:11:08,596 --> 00:11:10,356 Speaker 2: get this much money and this I'm going to be 205 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 2: so happy, and over and over again, those mountains, those 206 00:11:14,436 --> 00:11:16,196 Speaker 2: like you know, summits that I had built up as 207 00:11:16,236 --> 00:11:20,436 Speaker 2: being my arrival. Were anything, but I would get them, 208 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:23,116 Speaker 2: I would feel that momentary blip of kind of dopamine 209 00:11:23,236 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 2: induced euphoria, and then I would reset to whatever right. 210 00:11:27,756 --> 00:11:29,796 Speaker 2: It was like I'd never done enough. It was just 211 00:11:29,836 --> 00:11:33,876 Speaker 2: more and more and more, And unfortunately, as the years 212 00:11:33,916 --> 00:11:39,076 Speaker 2: went by, I became more rather than less focused on 213 00:11:39,196 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 2: money being the path to living a good life. Like 214 00:11:42,556 --> 00:11:44,476 Speaker 2: as I got around it more and as I got 215 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:48,756 Speaker 2: more indoctrinated into this financial culture, I grew sort of 216 00:11:48,796 --> 00:11:51,396 Speaker 2: these blinders of like, Okay, let me just keep getting 217 00:11:51,396 --> 00:11:53,276 Speaker 2: more and more, folks, this is what really matters. I 218 00:11:53,316 --> 00:11:56,836 Speaker 2: grew so convinced that like this one scoreboard was the 219 00:11:56,836 --> 00:11:59,996 Speaker 2: one that mattered, that every other area of my life 220 00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 2: started to show cracks, and my relationships. I was living 221 00:12:04,116 --> 00:12:06,916 Speaker 2: three thousand miles away from my parents. I was noticing 222 00:12:06,956 --> 00:12:08,436 Speaker 2: for the first time in my life that they were 223 00:12:08,436 --> 00:12:11,316 Speaker 2: slowing down, getting older, but we were three thousand miles away. 224 00:12:11,796 --> 00:12:14,036 Speaker 2: My wife and I were struggling to conceive at the time. 225 00:12:14,276 --> 00:12:17,036 Speaker 2: Now was creating strain in our relationship. I was drinking 226 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:20,956 Speaker 2: six seven nights a week, and it all coincided with 227 00:12:20,996 --> 00:12:22,596 Speaker 2: a point in time in my life where from the 228 00:12:22,636 --> 00:12:25,356 Speaker 2: outside looking in, you would have said I was winning 229 00:12:25,356 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 2: the game, and I started to have this sensation that 230 00:12:30,036 --> 00:12:32,716 Speaker 2: if that was what winning, felt like I had to 231 00:12:32,756 --> 00:12:33,876 Speaker 2: be playing the wrong game. 232 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:38,476 Speaker 1: You described this pivotal moment in your book, when you're 233 00:12:38,956 --> 00:12:41,916 Speaker 1: roughly thirty years old and you have I think it's 234 00:12:41,956 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 1: coffee with a friend. Is that right? 235 00:12:43,716 --> 00:12:44,556 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, Toraink. 236 00:12:44,636 --> 00:12:48,836 Speaker 2: Unfortunately you had a drink seven nights a week of drinking. 237 00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:52,196 Speaker 1: You had a drink with a friend and they say 238 00:12:52,276 --> 00:12:54,676 Speaker 1: something to you that just stops you in your tracks. 239 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:55,956 Speaker 1: Walk me through that story. 240 00:12:56,756 --> 00:12:56,956 Speaker 3: Yeah. 241 00:12:56,956 --> 00:12:58,956 Speaker 2: I went out for a drink with this old friend 242 00:12:58,956 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 2: who I hadn't seen in a while, and we sat 243 00:13:01,516 --> 00:13:04,636 Speaker 2: down and he asked how I was doing, and I 244 00:13:04,716 --> 00:13:08,396 Speaker 2: told him that it started to get difficult living so 245 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:11,756 Speaker 2: far away from parents that I had started to notice 246 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:15,156 Speaker 2: they were slowing down. And he asked how old they were, 247 00:13:15,596 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 2: and I said mid sixties. And he asked how often 248 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:21,556 Speaker 2: I saw them, and I said once a year at 249 00:13:21,556 --> 00:13:24,356 Speaker 2: this point, and he just looked at me and said, okay, 250 00:13:24,636 --> 00:13:26,956 Speaker 2: so you're going to see your parents fifteen more times 251 00:13:26,956 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 2: before they die. And I just remember feeling like I 252 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:36,116 Speaker 2: had been punched in the gut. Even now, it sort 253 00:13:36,116 --> 00:13:40,396 Speaker 2: of gives me chills remembering it. But the idea that 254 00:13:40,476 --> 00:13:43,116 Speaker 2: the amount of time you have left with the people 255 00:13:43,196 --> 00:13:46,676 Speaker 2: you care about most in the world is that finite 256 00:13:47,076 --> 00:13:51,076 Speaker 2: and countable that you can place it onto a few hands, 257 00:13:51,716 --> 00:13:55,476 Speaker 2: that just shook me to the core. And in that moment, 258 00:13:55,596 --> 00:14:01,916 Speaker 2: I realized that my entire definition of success, of what 259 00:14:01,956 --> 00:14:04,276 Speaker 2: it meant to build a wealthy life, of this path 260 00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:10,596 Speaker 2: that I was on, had been incomplete, that I was 261 00:14:10,636 --> 00:14:16,676 Speaker 2: prioritizing one thing at the expense of everything else. And 262 00:14:16,836 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 2: in that moment, I realized that if we didn't make 263 00:14:18,996 --> 00:14:23,956 Speaker 2: a change, if something didn't change fundamentally, that we were 264 00:14:23,956 --> 00:14:25,716 Speaker 2: going to end up somewhere where we didn't want to be. 265 00:14:27,676 --> 00:14:28,356 Speaker 3: And so we did. 266 00:14:29,476 --> 00:14:31,476 Speaker 2: My wife and I had a candid conversation the next 267 00:14:31,556 --> 00:14:36,556 Speaker 2: day about what we really viewed as our center in life, 268 00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:38,916 Speaker 2: what we wanted to build our life around, what our 269 00:14:38,916 --> 00:14:42,636 Speaker 2: true north really was, and we made a change. Within 270 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:45,956 Speaker 2: forty five days, I had left my job, we had 271 00:14:45,956 --> 00:14:48,436 Speaker 2: sold our house in California, and we had moved three 272 00:14:48,436 --> 00:14:51,236 Speaker 2: thousand miles across the country to live closer to both 273 00:14:51,236 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 2: of our sets of parents. And in that one decision, 274 00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:57,956 Speaker 2: was a very important realization, which is just that you 275 00:14:58,116 --> 00:15:01,356 Speaker 2: are in much more control of your time than you think. 276 00:15:02,316 --> 00:15:04,556 Speaker 2: I see my parents multiple times a month. They're a 277 00:15:04,596 --> 00:15:07,036 Speaker 2: huge part of my son, their grandson's life. We had 278 00:15:07,076 --> 00:15:10,956 Speaker 2: taken an action and actually created and that was the 279 00:15:10,996 --> 00:15:12,636 Speaker 2: spark that really changed everything. 280 00:15:14,236 --> 00:15:17,156 Speaker 1: I'm so curious about this conversation with your wife right 281 00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:19,556 Speaker 1: So for people who are listening right now thinking Ooh, 282 00:15:19,676 --> 00:15:23,476 Speaker 1: I need to do one of these reflection sessions with 283 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:27,596 Speaker 1: myself and with my partner to really question assumptions. What 284 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:29,476 Speaker 1: kinds of questions were you asking each other? 285 00:15:30,636 --> 00:15:34,436 Speaker 2: The first thing I would just say was thinking about 286 00:15:34,476 --> 00:15:37,596 Speaker 2: what we wanted the end to look like, like what 287 00:15:37,716 --> 00:15:40,316 Speaker 2: is the end goal? What is the end that I'm 288 00:15:40,356 --> 00:15:42,676 Speaker 2: trying to create? And for both my wife and I, 289 00:15:43,116 --> 00:15:45,916 Speaker 2: it had very little to do with money, you know. 290 00:15:45,956 --> 00:15:49,796 Speaker 2: It was being on like a porch with each other, 291 00:15:50,236 --> 00:15:52,396 Speaker 2: with kids that want to spend time with us, with 292 00:15:52,476 --> 00:15:56,476 Speaker 2: grandkids in the yard, with friends coming over for dinner. 293 00:15:56,756 --> 00:15:59,116 Speaker 2: It was like, Okay, both of us have just laid 294 00:15:59,156 --> 00:16:01,756 Speaker 2: out an entire scenario that has people at the center 295 00:16:01,836 --> 00:16:06,156 Speaker 2: of it. It has relationships, especially our core closest relationships, 296 00:16:06,876 --> 00:16:07,436 Speaker 2: and yet. 297 00:16:07,396 --> 00:16:10,116 Speaker 3: On a daily basis, what are your prioritiyizing right now? 298 00:16:10,196 --> 00:16:12,756 Speaker 2: We live in California where we don't really have any connection, 299 00:16:13,196 --> 00:16:16,396 Speaker 2: Like we don't have close friends that live here, and 300 00:16:16,476 --> 00:16:19,356 Speaker 2: we're living three thousand miles away from the people that 301 00:16:19,396 --> 00:16:23,876 Speaker 2: we're closest to, And that was just extremely illuminating. You're like, 302 00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 2: I just shined a light on the fact that my values, 303 00:16:26,916 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 2: the things that I really am saying really matter to me, Yeah, 304 00:16:30,036 --> 00:16:33,356 Speaker 2: are very different from what my actions are showing those 305 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:37,076 Speaker 2: values to be. And that gap is sort of the 306 00:16:37,116 --> 00:16:39,436 Speaker 2: fundamental gap that we should all be trying to close 307 00:16:39,476 --> 00:16:39,996 Speaker 2: in life. 308 00:16:40,076 --> 00:16:41,796 Speaker 3: It's like the difference. 309 00:16:41,356 --> 00:16:43,796 Speaker 2: Between what you say your priorities are and what your 310 00:16:43,836 --> 00:16:47,396 Speaker 2: actions show your priorities are. When you close that gap, 311 00:16:47,436 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 2: your life improves, But you need to highlight the gap 312 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:51,596 Speaker 2: before you can close it. 313 00:16:55,516 --> 00:16:57,716 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 314 00:16:57,716 --> 00:17:13,316 Speaker 1: of plans. Once saw Hil realized he needed to make 315 00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:16,476 Speaker 1: major changes to live out his values, he and his 316 00:17:16,516 --> 00:17:19,196 Speaker 1: wife packed up their bags and moved across the country 317 00:17:19,196 --> 00:17:22,516 Speaker 1: to be closer to family. He also quit his demanding 318 00:17:22,596 --> 00:17:25,956 Speaker 1: job and started to write more, and he got curious 319 00:17:25,996 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 1: about what it means to live a good life. He 320 00:17:29,116 --> 00:17:32,716 Speaker 1: started asking people what advice they give their younger selves, 321 00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:36,116 Speaker 1: and from these conversations he came up with the idea 322 00:17:36,276 --> 00:17:38,276 Speaker 1: that there are five buckets of wealth. 323 00:17:39,076 --> 00:17:42,156 Speaker 2: The five types of wealth are time wealth, social wealth, 324 00:17:42,596 --> 00:17:46,956 Speaker 2: mental wealth, physical wealth, and then financial wealth. Time wealth 325 00:17:47,236 --> 00:17:51,236 Speaker 2: is fundamentally about freedom to choose how you spend your time, 326 00:17:51,396 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 2: who you spend it with, where you spend it, when 327 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:57,076 Speaker 2: you trade it for other things. It is about an 328 00:17:57,076 --> 00:18:00,236 Speaker 2: awareness of time as your most precious asset. 329 00:18:01,036 --> 00:18:04,036 Speaker 1: What are some strategies that you've found helpful when it 330 00:18:04,076 --> 00:18:07,356 Speaker 1: comes to protecting your time, but then also feeling just 331 00:18:07,396 --> 00:18:08,876 Speaker 1: more agency over your time. 332 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:13,316 Speaker 2: Your outcomes in life tend to follow your energy. Very 333 00:18:13,316 --> 00:18:16,676 Speaker 2: few people are actually aware of their energy in a 334 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:20,596 Speaker 2: meaningful way, meaning understand the types of activities and the 335 00:18:20,596 --> 00:18:23,716 Speaker 2: types of people in their life that create energy versus 336 00:18:23,836 --> 00:18:27,516 Speaker 2: drain energy. When you spend time and lean into things 337 00:18:27,516 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 2: that are creating energy for you, your outcomes will improve. 338 00:18:31,156 --> 00:18:34,276 Speaker 2: And when you lean away from and remove things that 339 00:18:34,316 --> 00:18:37,156 Speaker 2: are draining energy, Similarly, your life and your outcomes in 340 00:18:37,196 --> 00:18:39,556 Speaker 2: the way that you feel on a weekly basis improves. 341 00:18:40,236 --> 00:18:43,236 Speaker 2: The fastest way to develop an awareness of that is 342 00:18:43,276 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 2: to just use your calendar. I mean, if you look 343 00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:48,716 Speaker 2: at your calendar at the end of a weekday and 344 00:18:48,876 --> 00:18:52,316 Speaker 2: color code the activities according to whether they created energy, 345 00:18:52,396 --> 00:18:55,516 Speaker 2: meaning you felt sort of a natural pull or interest 346 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:58,996 Speaker 2: or excitement around the thing that's green, if it was neutral, 347 00:18:58,996 --> 00:19:02,316 Speaker 2: market yellow, and if it left you feeling physically drained 348 00:19:02,876 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 2: market red. If you do that for a week, you'll 349 00:19:05,956 --> 00:19:08,756 Speaker 2: have a very clear visual perspective on the types of 350 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:13,196 Speaker 2: active vites that create versus energy from your life. That 351 00:19:13,356 --> 00:19:17,996 Speaker 2: information allows you to make slow, incremental changes to your 352 00:19:18,436 --> 00:19:23,356 Speaker 2: weeks that will improve the overall outlook and outcomes in 353 00:19:23,396 --> 00:19:27,516 Speaker 2: your life, like removing certain things that you previously said 354 00:19:27,596 --> 00:19:30,196 Speaker 2: yes to that we're actually draining your energy that you 355 00:19:30,236 --> 00:19:33,876 Speaker 2: can remove, removing people from your life that consistently drain 356 00:19:33,956 --> 00:19:35,316 Speaker 2: your energy and are not adding a. 357 00:19:35,276 --> 00:19:36,156 Speaker 3: Whole lot of value. 358 00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:39,436 Speaker 2: A piece of that is this idea of just saying 359 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:40,756 Speaker 2: no more effectively. 360 00:19:40,916 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, terrible at this. 361 00:19:43,236 --> 00:19:46,476 Speaker 2: We all sort of know that it's important to know 362 00:19:46,556 --> 00:19:51,076 Speaker 2: when to say no, but very few people have good 363 00:19:51,196 --> 00:19:54,476 Speaker 2: framings for how to actually do that. I offer two 364 00:19:54,476 --> 00:19:56,996 Speaker 2: in the book that I have found personally very useful. 365 00:19:57,076 --> 00:20:00,396 Speaker 3: One is this idea of the right now test. 366 00:20:00,596 --> 00:20:01,796 Speaker 1: Oh yes, I love this one. 367 00:20:02,076 --> 00:20:05,556 Speaker 2: If someone asks you to do something, whether personal or professional, 368 00:20:05,756 --> 00:20:08,676 Speaker 2: two months from now, ask yourself whether you would want 369 00:20:08,676 --> 00:20:10,636 Speaker 2: to do it if it was tonight or if it 370 00:20:10,676 --> 00:20:13,356 Speaker 2: was right now. If the answer is yes, you say 371 00:20:13,436 --> 00:20:15,916 Speaker 2: yes to it, because then in two months you'll still 372 00:20:15,956 --> 00:20:17,756 Speaker 2: want to do it. But if the answer is no, 373 00:20:18,276 --> 00:20:20,476 Speaker 2: and you're just saying yes to it because two months 374 00:20:20,596 --> 00:20:22,676 Speaker 2: seems like so far in the future, Like sure, I'll 375 00:20:22,676 --> 00:20:25,276 Speaker 2: have more time than two months in the future future, 376 00:20:25,316 --> 00:20:27,796 Speaker 2: maya will have way more time, you should. 377 00:20:27,556 --> 00:20:28,276 Speaker 3: Just say no to it. 378 00:20:28,356 --> 00:20:32,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a failure of empathy with your future self. Yeah, absolutely, Okay, 379 00:20:32,716 --> 00:20:35,956 Speaker 1: can we talk now, sihil about social wealth? So how 380 00:20:35,956 --> 00:20:38,276 Speaker 1: do you define it? And what are ways that we 381 00:20:38,316 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 1: can try to boost the amount of social wealth that 382 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:41,596 Speaker 1: we derive in our lives. 383 00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:46,156 Speaker 2: Social wealth is all about your relationships. It's the you know, 384 00:20:46,196 --> 00:20:49,956 Speaker 2: it's the few close, deep bonds, and then it's the 385 00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 2: larger circles of connection to things that sort of extend 386 00:20:53,476 --> 00:20:58,236 Speaker 2: beyond the self, whether through communities, local, regional, spiritual, et cetera. 387 00:20:59,036 --> 00:21:02,116 Speaker 2: I love this visualization that I propose in the book 388 00:21:02,396 --> 00:21:06,676 Speaker 2: of Imagining your Own Funeral and thinking about the people 389 00:21:06,716 --> 00:21:08,276 Speaker 2: that are going to be sitting in the front row, 390 00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:12,076 Speaker 2: And the most important part of that visualization is actually 391 00:21:12,116 --> 00:21:17,476 Speaker 2: not identifying those people. It's about recognizing the traits and 392 00:21:18,476 --> 00:21:22,556 Speaker 2: the experience that those people create for you, and then 393 00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 2: reminding yourself that the most important thing is to be 394 00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:31,076 Speaker 2: a front row person to someone else. Everyone always asks like, 395 00:21:31,116 --> 00:21:33,636 Speaker 2: how do I build deep, loving bonds? How do I 396 00:21:33,636 --> 00:21:36,196 Speaker 2: find those people that you know I can call at 397 00:21:36,196 --> 00:21:39,876 Speaker 2: three in the morning when things are bad. The most 398 00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:43,156 Speaker 2: clear obvious answer is be one of those people to 399 00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:43,756 Speaker 2: someone else. 400 00:21:44,396 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 3: We attract in life what we put out into the world. 401 00:21:47,196 --> 00:21:50,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean there's also the now famous Harvard study, 402 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 1: Robert Weldinger study about how our social relationships are the 403 00:21:55,876 --> 00:21:59,196 Speaker 1: greatest predictor of long term well being and physical health. 404 00:21:59,596 --> 00:22:02,276 Speaker 2: The most interesting finding of that study was that the 405 00:22:02,316 --> 00:22:06,716 Speaker 2: single greatest predictor of physical health at age eighty was 406 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:10,516 Speaker 2: relationship satisfaction at age fifty. I think it's the most 407 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:12,516 Speaker 2: impactful study of the last one hundred years. 408 00:22:12,756 --> 00:22:15,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you mentioned already one of the best ways 409 00:22:15,636 --> 00:22:18,076 Speaker 1: to boost our physical health, which is to invest in 410 00:22:18,076 --> 00:22:21,036 Speaker 1: our social relationships. Tell me how you think about physical 411 00:22:21,036 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 1: wealth and just a few strategies you might share. 412 00:22:23,596 --> 00:22:26,276 Speaker 2: That's basically three pillars. Move your body for thirty minutes 413 00:22:26,316 --> 00:22:31,036 Speaker 2: a day any type of movement walk, run, jog, bike, row, dance, 414 00:22:31,196 --> 00:22:33,236 Speaker 2: whatever you like doing. Move your body for thirty minutes 415 00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:36,956 Speaker 2: a day, eat whole unprocessed foods eighty percent of meals, 416 00:22:37,316 --> 00:22:38,956 Speaker 2: and then try to sleep seven hours a night. 417 00:22:39,636 --> 00:22:40,996 Speaker 1: What about mental wealth? 418 00:22:41,796 --> 00:22:47,876 Speaker 2: Mental wealth is about purpose, It's about growth, and more 419 00:22:47,916 --> 00:22:51,436 Speaker 2: than anything else, it is about creating the space necessary 420 00:22:51,596 --> 00:22:55,636 Speaker 2: to wrestle with some of these bigger picture, sort of 421 00:22:55,716 --> 00:22:59,716 Speaker 2: unanswerable questions of life. I really think about mental wealth 422 00:22:59,756 --> 00:23:04,036 Speaker 2: as being about carving your own path and pursuing your 423 00:23:04,076 --> 00:23:07,196 Speaker 2: curiosity enough such that you can unlock whatever that is. 424 00:23:08,236 --> 00:23:10,596 Speaker 1: A lot of these techniques do become more accessible when 425 00:23:10,636 --> 00:23:14,316 Speaker 1: our financial needs are met, and there is a profound 426 00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:19,116 Speaker 1: amount of financial anxiety in this moment, for session, fears, layoffs, inflation. 427 00:23:20,236 --> 00:23:22,836 Speaker 1: What advice would you say to someone who is really 428 00:23:22,876 --> 00:23:27,356 Speaker 1: eager to think bigger than money, just see things more expansively, 429 00:23:27,396 --> 00:23:29,916 Speaker 1: but they feel like they are stuck in survival mode. 430 00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:32,116 Speaker 1: Can they still take some of the advice from your book? 431 00:23:33,196 --> 00:23:33,476 Speaker 3: Yes? 432 00:23:34,196 --> 00:23:37,596 Speaker 2: I would say a lot of this does reflect Maslow's 433 00:23:37,676 --> 00:23:40,636 Speaker 2: hierarchy of needs to say that until you achieve these 434 00:23:40,636 --> 00:23:45,036 Speaker 2: basic needs of food, shelter, you know, basic pleasures, money 435 00:23:45,036 --> 00:23:49,156 Speaker 2: directly buys happiness. Beyond that, you start wanting to think 436 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:51,756 Speaker 2: about money as a tool to build and accumulate these 437 00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:55,596 Speaker 2: other things. What I would say is that some tiny 438 00:23:55,716 --> 00:23:58,516 Speaker 2: daily investment in these other areas of life will pay 439 00:23:58,556 --> 00:24:01,956 Speaker 2: dividends for you. Doing the like tiny daily action is 440 00:24:01,996 --> 00:24:04,516 Speaker 2: better than doing nothing, and it prevents atrophy in all 441 00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:06,556 Speaker 2: of these areas. So even if you do not have 442 00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 2: the luxury or the privilege of investment thing meaningfully into 443 00:24:10,876 --> 00:24:14,596 Speaker 2: your physical wealth or into finding a purpose, you can 444 00:24:14,676 --> 00:24:18,276 Speaker 2: still do the tiny daily action. Anyone can find five 445 00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:20,556 Speaker 2: minutes to just go for a walk around the block 446 00:24:20,636 --> 00:24:24,036 Speaker 2: before going to bed to clear their head, or doing 447 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:26,596 Speaker 2: the like two minute journaling thing before going to bed 448 00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:28,876 Speaker 2: to get some stressful thing off your brain to help 449 00:24:28,916 --> 00:24:31,596 Speaker 2: you sleep a little bit more clearly at night. Anything 450 00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:34,676 Speaker 2: above zero compounds in all of these areas of life. 451 00:24:35,116 --> 00:24:37,276 Speaker 2: But we don't think that way. We think that something 452 00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:39,836 Speaker 2: needs to be optimal in order for it to be beneficial, 453 00:24:40,156 --> 00:24:43,036 Speaker 2: when the reality is that the tiny thing done well 454 00:24:43,116 --> 00:24:46,436 Speaker 2: on a daily basis will stack and compound positively in 455 00:24:46,476 --> 00:24:46,996 Speaker 2: your life. 456 00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:50,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you personally think about navigating the trade 457 00:24:50,836 --> 00:24:54,436 Speaker 1: offs between these types of wealth. So obviously there are costs, 458 00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:57,076 Speaker 1: right if you are prioritizing your mental wealth, it might 459 00:24:57,116 --> 00:25:00,516 Speaker 1: come at the expense of other buckets. And if you're 460 00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:03,596 Speaker 1: moving to be closer a family, it might also strain 461 00:25:03,956 --> 00:25:06,196 Speaker 1: your career options or your finances. 462 00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:10,796 Speaker 2: I really think about life coming in seasons, and these 463 00:25:10,836 --> 00:25:14,916 Speaker 2: trade offs are fundamentally about what sort of dimmer switch 464 00:25:15,116 --> 00:25:18,076 Speaker 2: you want to turn up versus down during different seasons 465 00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:20,596 Speaker 2: of life. The traditional wisdom has always been that these 466 00:25:20,636 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 2: things exist on on off switches, and that is what 467 00:25:23,596 --> 00:25:26,556 Speaker 2: I fundamentally push back on. And so the idea to 468 00:25:26,636 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 2: me is that you have these dimmer switches in front 469 00:25:28,716 --> 00:25:30,596 Speaker 2: of you, and what you are going to have way 470 00:25:30,676 --> 00:25:33,396 Speaker 2: turned up at any point in time is going to change. 471 00:25:33,636 --> 00:25:36,196 Speaker 2: In your early years twenties, thirties, forties, you might be 472 00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:40,036 Speaker 2: really focusing on building that financial stability and financial foundation. 473 00:25:40,396 --> 00:25:43,196 Speaker 2: So that area is turned up. That doesn't mean the 474 00:25:43,236 --> 00:25:45,316 Speaker 2: other areas are turned off. It might just mean they're 475 00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:48,116 Speaker 2: turned down low. Maybe low means the five minute walk 476 00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:50,916 Speaker 2: every day. Maybe low means the two minutes of journaling 477 00:25:50,956 --> 00:25:53,836 Speaker 2: for the headspace that you get. Maybe low means the 478 00:25:53,876 --> 00:25:56,076 Speaker 2: one phone call to your family each week. 479 00:25:56,196 --> 00:25:58,676 Speaker 3: Whatever it is down low, but it's not off. 480 00:25:59,436 --> 00:26:01,996 Speaker 2: At a different season of life, what you are choosing 481 00:26:02,036 --> 00:26:04,076 Speaker 2: to have turned up or you know or to the 482 00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:06,876 Speaker 2: middle is going to change, and you are not tethered 483 00:26:06,876 --> 00:26:08,676 Speaker 2: to what your prior season was, and you don't have 484 00:26:08,716 --> 00:26:10,996 Speaker 2: to stress about what your future season might look like. 485 00:26:11,036 --> 00:26:15,516 Speaker 2: You can just embrace whatever does exist in the present season. 486 00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:17,796 Speaker 1: Yeah. One of my favorite parts of your book is 487 00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:19,716 Speaker 1: that you talk about the fact that balance is not 488 00:26:20,196 --> 00:26:23,836 Speaker 1: achieved on a daily level. It's achieved at a macro level. 489 00:26:23,876 --> 00:26:26,276 Speaker 1: When you zoom out and you say, look at a 490 00:26:26,396 --> 00:26:29,396 Speaker 1: year or many years in the aggregate, that's when you 491 00:26:29,436 --> 00:26:31,076 Speaker 1: see the balance reflected back to you. 492 00:26:31,716 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 3: Yeah. 493 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:35,116 Speaker 2: I love that idea of like being able to just 494 00:26:35,236 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 2: lean into the unbalanced when it comes. As long as 495 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:40,716 Speaker 2: you have a broader macro awareness of the desire to 496 00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:44,356 Speaker 2: create the balance in the future can be really powerful. 497 00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:48,116 Speaker 1: What's the most difficult change that you've had to make 498 00:26:48,676 --> 00:26:51,316 Speaker 1: since shifting how you define wealth. 499 00:26:52,836 --> 00:26:56,676 Speaker 2: I think the biggest and most challenging change is that 500 00:26:57,436 --> 00:27:01,996 Speaker 2: your definition no longer aligns with the world around you's definition, 501 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:07,116 Speaker 2: and when you live differently, and when you embrace different things, 502 00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 2: and when your scoreboard is different the way that you 503 00:27:09,996 --> 00:27:12,396 Speaker 2: kind of value and think about the world, all of 504 00:27:12,436 --> 00:27:14,156 Speaker 2: a sudden, it's very clear to you that it's in 505 00:27:14,236 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 2: conflict with how other people do. You're no longer playing 506 00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:19,796 Speaker 2: like similar games to other people, and so your ability 507 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:21,996 Speaker 2: to have and carry on conversations with a lot of 508 00:27:21,996 --> 00:27:24,516 Speaker 2: people sort of just goes away. You know, I've had 509 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:26,796 Speaker 2: like a lot of friends who I thought of as 510 00:27:26,876 --> 00:27:30,716 Speaker 2: real friends that it no longer feels like I speak 511 00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:32,916 Speaker 2: the same language as them in a lot of ways. 512 00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:36,756 Speaker 2: And that's challenging just in the context of relationships. 513 00:27:37,116 --> 00:27:39,756 Speaker 1: Sure, sure, But has it also brought you closer to 514 00:27:39,796 --> 00:27:42,036 Speaker 1: other people that share those values. 515 00:27:42,596 --> 00:27:45,396 Speaker 2: It's brought me closer to the people that I hold dear. 516 00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:48,876 Speaker 2: I would say that it has like narrowed and focused 517 00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:51,476 Speaker 2: my people around the real people that I want to 518 00:27:51,476 --> 00:27:53,276 Speaker 2: be on these few missions with in life. 519 00:27:53,796 --> 00:27:55,556 Speaker 1: So do you find, for example, that you're in an 520 00:27:55,596 --> 00:27:58,836 Speaker 1: impast with friends who continue to focus a lot on 521 00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:01,636 Speaker 1: financial wealth? Like where are you finding that disconnect? 522 00:28:02,156 --> 00:28:03,636 Speaker 3: Yeah? I wouldn't say an impasse. 523 00:28:03,756 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 2: I would just say almost like a you know, an indifference, 524 00:28:07,476 --> 00:28:09,876 Speaker 2: Like you know that we no longer have in common 525 00:28:10,116 --> 00:28:12,956 Speaker 2: the things that previously maybe bonded us around, like thinking 526 00:28:12,996 --> 00:28:16,836 Speaker 2: about and talking about money and fancy things and status 527 00:28:16,916 --> 00:28:18,916 Speaker 2: and like the club memberships. All the things that we 528 00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:21,796 Speaker 2: previously used to have a shared language and communication around 529 00:28:22,116 --> 00:28:25,316 Speaker 2: it no longer exists. And so you realize, you know 530 00:28:25,356 --> 00:28:27,516 Speaker 2: at times that like some of the things that bonded 531 00:28:27,556 --> 00:28:30,996 Speaker 2: you together, it wasn't like maybe real deep connections. It 532 00:28:31,036 --> 00:28:34,076 Speaker 2: was these surface level things that once you change those, 533 00:28:34,436 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 2: it no longer is there. The point, the meta point 534 00:28:37,116 --> 00:28:39,756 Speaker 2: of the whole book is that you get to choose 535 00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:43,276 Speaker 2: what races you wrut. You get to choose, and you 536 00:28:43,316 --> 00:28:45,956 Speaker 2: don't need to live by default into someone else's. 537 00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:48,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, I think this aligns so closely 538 00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:53,396 Speaker 1: with how we can buttress ourselves against the dynamic force 539 00:28:53,436 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 1: of change in our lives and what can stabilize us. 540 00:28:56,156 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 1: And I think the premise of your book, which is 541 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:03,076 Speaker 1: to question our value systems and to essentially put more 542 00:29:03,076 --> 00:29:05,836 Speaker 1: weight into these other buckets of wealth over the course 543 00:29:05,836 --> 00:29:09,996 Speaker 1: of our lives, to diversify those investments, does actually build 544 00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:13,036 Speaker 1: our resilience in the face of change, because life will 545 00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:16,596 Speaker 1: throw these curveballs our way, and we may stop having 546 00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:18,916 Speaker 1: to play baseball at one moment, or we may face 547 00:29:18,956 --> 00:29:22,236 Speaker 1: a financial crisis at another moment. There's a safety net 548 00:29:22,316 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 1: when you do have these investments in many places and 549 00:29:25,236 --> 00:29:27,756 Speaker 1: you allow it to be a dynamic space that is 550 00:29:27,756 --> 00:29:30,196 Speaker 1: shifting in real time. Like I think, another thing that's 551 00:29:30,236 --> 00:29:33,116 Speaker 1: really important for listeners to understand is you're not proposing 552 00:29:33,596 --> 00:29:35,916 Speaker 1: you figure out your pyramid and then it's fixed and 553 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:40,196 Speaker 1: locked for life. It's like an ongoing dialogue with yourself 554 00:29:40,276 --> 00:29:42,716 Speaker 1: and your loved ones to figure out where you want 555 00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:45,156 Speaker 1: to make those investments at any given moment. 556 00:29:45,876 --> 00:29:46,716 Speaker 3: Exactly right. 557 00:29:46,916 --> 00:29:51,916 Speaker 2: It is entirely dynamic, and you have the freedom to 558 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:55,116 Speaker 2: choose during any season of life to take actions to 559 00:29:55,236 --> 00:29:57,676 Speaker 2: change where you are and what your priority is and 560 00:29:57,676 --> 00:30:01,116 Speaker 2: what your life is being built around. And certainly there 561 00:30:01,156 --> 00:30:03,436 Speaker 2: are going to be situations where you just have to 562 00:30:03,556 --> 00:30:06,916 Speaker 2: lean into certain things because of responsibilities or because of 563 00:30:06,996 --> 00:30:10,436 Speaker 2: life circumstances. But when you do find yourself with the 564 00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:13,916 Speaker 2: luxury to choose, if you do, it is a responsibility 565 00:30:13,916 --> 00:30:15,956 Speaker 2: to take advantage of that as well to do right 566 00:30:15,996 --> 00:30:16,276 Speaker 2: by it. 567 00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:21,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of people listening are probably thinking, Okay, well, 568 00:30:21,356 --> 00:30:24,076 Speaker 1: sy Hill's got it all figured out, because not only 569 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:26,436 Speaker 1: is he successful, but then he's also got this like 570 00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 1: deeper philosophical wealth pyramid thing figured out. What is an 571 00:30:31,076 --> 00:30:35,036 Speaker 1: area of your life where you're currently struggling and maybe 572 00:30:35,076 --> 00:30:37,276 Speaker 1: where you're finding it hard to apply some of these 573 00:30:37,276 --> 00:30:39,956 Speaker 1: principles and tell me about how you're working through that challenge. 574 00:30:40,316 --> 00:30:42,516 Speaker 2: I would just say I have nothing figured out. I mean, 575 00:30:42,556 --> 00:30:45,836 Speaker 2: I think I understand some of these things, but all 576 00:30:45,956 --> 00:30:47,956 Speaker 2: of them are sort of notes to self that I 577 00:30:47,996 --> 00:30:51,476 Speaker 2: am presently wrestling with and struggling through. I tend to 578 00:30:51,476 --> 00:30:53,996 Speaker 2: think that in life, your best bet or your best 579 00:30:53,996 --> 00:30:56,476 Speaker 2: hope is that you just kind of stumble a little 580 00:30:56,476 --> 00:30:59,076 Speaker 2: bit better each day. You never like FULLI er on 581 00:30:59,116 --> 00:31:00,676 Speaker 2: your feet and feeling great and that you have it 582 00:31:00,756 --> 00:31:02,916 Speaker 2: figured out. I have found personally, whenever I think I 583 00:31:02,956 --> 00:31:04,556 Speaker 2: had it figured out, I'm about to get punched in 584 00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:07,236 Speaker 2: the face. And so I really like to think about 585 00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:09,396 Speaker 2: just like stumbling a little bit better, you know, for 586 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:11,756 Speaker 2: me personally, Like in the aftermath of the book release 587 00:31:11,916 --> 00:31:14,636 Speaker 2: and the impact that it's had, I have really wrestled 588 00:31:14,676 --> 00:31:18,116 Speaker 2: with like finding this balance around especially time and social 589 00:31:18,156 --> 00:31:21,916 Speaker 2: wealth of this wealth of new opportunities that feels like 590 00:31:21,956 --> 00:31:24,596 Speaker 2: it should be a good thing. But that has really 591 00:31:24,636 --> 00:31:27,356 Speaker 2: meaningfully negatively impacted my life in a lot of ways 592 00:31:27,436 --> 00:31:30,076 Speaker 2: because I've gone and like taken on too much chase 593 00:31:30,156 --> 00:31:33,036 Speaker 2: too many things that have spread me thin. The quality 594 00:31:33,076 --> 00:31:36,236 Speaker 2: of everything deteriorates. When you do that, it pulls me 595 00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:39,116 Speaker 2: away from my family. My wife had to have you know, 596 00:31:39,156 --> 00:31:40,876 Speaker 2: we had to have a sit down and talk about, 597 00:31:40,916 --> 00:31:43,476 Speaker 2: like this spring and summer, you need to like reset 598 00:31:43,916 --> 00:31:46,036 Speaker 2: more time. My son is three years old. It's gonna 599 00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:48,516 Speaker 2: be an amazing summer. And that is that was really 600 00:31:48,556 --> 00:31:51,076 Speaker 2: a struggle. It sort of this like natural push and 601 00:31:51,156 --> 00:32:13,276 Speaker 2: pull that happens with these inflection points in life. 602 00:32:17,276 --> 00:32:20,316 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. I've written a newsletter 603 00:32:20,356 --> 00:32:23,996 Speaker 1: post inspired by my conversation with Saalhill. It's all about 604 00:32:23,996 --> 00:32:26,996 Speaker 1: how we can better invest in our friendships. You can 605 00:32:26,996 --> 00:32:33,316 Speaker 1: subscribe to this free newsletter at Changewithmaya dot com and 606 00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:37,196 Speaker 1: next week join me when I talk to psychiatrist Judith Joseph, 607 00:32:37,316 --> 00:32:39,036 Speaker 1: who learns to feel joy again. 608 00:32:40,796 --> 00:32:42,396 Speaker 3: We were built with the DNA for joy. 609 00:32:42,476 --> 00:32:46,836 Speaker 1: We're supposed to derive pleasure from the basic things in life. 610 00:32:46,916 --> 00:32:49,796 Speaker 1: If you're not deriving pleasure from those things that is 611 00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:53,836 Speaker 1: a problem That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. 612 00:32:54,116 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 1: See you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, 613 00:32:58,796 --> 00:33:02,436 Speaker 1: written and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight 614 00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:06,596 Speaker 1: Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor 615 00:33:06,756 --> 00:33:11,196 Speaker 1: Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Britney Cronin and Megan Leeuvin 616 00:33:11,476 --> 00:33:15,356 Speaker 1: and our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our 617 00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:18,836 Speaker 1: delightful theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 618 00:33:19,596 --> 00:33:22,876 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 619 00:33:22,996 --> 00:33:26,516 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 620 00:33:26,716 --> 00:33:30,036 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 621 00:33:30,036 --> 00:33:33,276 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. 622 00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:34,316 Speaker 1: See you next week.