WEBVTT - Dealing with Narcissists at Work 0:00:01.850 --> 0:00:04.820 One, two, three. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.379 If you ever have feelings that you just want some, 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.739 Amy and Kat got you covered like an umbrella. 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.680 Ladies and fellas, we just follow in the. 0:00:14.620 --> 0:00:17.980 Spirit where it tells us. From the real stuff to 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.220 the chill stuff and the in-between. 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.340 Sometimes the best thing you can do is just stop 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:29.370 and feel things. This is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat. 0:00:30.090 --> 0:00:32.890 Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things. I'm Amy. 0:00:32.909 --> 0:00:33.629 And I'm Kat. 0:00:33.710 --> 0:00:37.480 And we are finally tackling the big narcissism in the 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:39.800 workplace episode that Kat and I have been talking about 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:47.860 doing for a while now. Kat is very pregnant and she... Well, 0:00:48.620 --> 0:00:49.659 you can speak for yourself. 0:00:50.540 --> 0:00:51.140 I'll try. 0:00:51.659 --> 0:00:54.690 But that's the thing. She gets very out of breath 0:00:55.590 --> 0:00:58.810 and this is her wheelhouse as a therapist. I mean... 0:00:59.700 --> 0:01:02.470 not that you focus on narcissism, but this is definitely 0:01:02.510 --> 0:01:08.490 more your lane than mine. I'm here for support and 0:01:08.550 --> 0:01:13.790 conversation and cats also hot, but we also get hot 0:01:13.830 --> 0:01:15.399 in this room because of lights. So it was funny 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:19.140 before we started recording, I was like, Oh, do you 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:20.880 want my fan that I walk with? So I have 0:01:20.900 --> 0:01:24.119 this neck fan that I walk with, especially when it's 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.479 really hot out and it's so refreshing. And I was 0:01:26.500 --> 0:01:29.190 just imagining cats sitting here doing this episode with a. 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:32.800 Sounds so nice, honestly. 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:35.100 And then have your little Tums nearby. Yeah. 0:01:36.300 --> 0:01:38.580 I recently purchased Tums for the first time. 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:39.460 It's getting real. 0:01:39.500 --> 0:01:39.760 Yeah. 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:41.280 Yeah. 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:42.700 If I had to have a feeling of the day, 0:01:42.750 --> 0:01:45.050 it would be out of breath. Well, we do. 0:01:45.569 --> 0:01:47.050 We still have feelings of the day, even though it's 0:01:47.069 --> 0:01:48.090 a narcissism episode. 0:01:48.170 --> 0:01:48.850 That's my feeling. 0:01:49.410 --> 0:01:49.530 Is? 0:01:49.970 --> 0:01:51.190 Out of breath. Out of breath. 0:01:51.670 --> 0:01:52.170 Oh. 0:01:52.270 --> 0:01:55.090 We're going physical. That's how I'm feeling. I will be 0:01:55.130 --> 0:01:58.750 doing a lot of talking today. So for anybody listening- 0:01:59.100 --> 0:02:01.580 Especially because somebody might have sent you this episode and 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:03.620 this might be your first episode of Feeling Things to 0:02:03.660 --> 0:02:06.940 Listen To. I don't normally talk like this. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.360 And you're like, these people have labored breathing. 0:02:10.419 --> 0:02:14.000 I'm about to have a baby. And we've been promising 0:02:14.030 --> 0:02:16.369 this episode for a long time. So I definitely wanted 0:02:16.389 --> 0:02:19.950 to do it before I went on maternity leave. And 0:02:19.970 --> 0:02:22.850 I wrote some notes. So hopefully that will help me 0:02:22.930 --> 0:02:25.470 talk slower because I tend to be a fast talker 0:02:25.510 --> 0:02:26.470 and that makes it worse. 0:02:27.330 --> 0:02:27.510 So. 0:02:28.030 --> 0:02:34.940 Just, you know, offer me some grace and listen with caution. Okay. 0:02:35.900 --> 0:02:41.300 All right. Well, my feeling of the day is I'm proud. Oh. 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:46.520 I'm proud of us for finally doing this episode. No, 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.570 it's related to this because I think sometimes when things 0:02:50.630 --> 0:02:54.829 are really sensitive, sort of like the Mel Robbins deep dive. 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.020 Like we wanted to do that for a while and 0:02:57.060 --> 0:02:58.960 it took us a minute. We finally did it last year. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.660 And after that, we thought, okay, well that did really 0:03:03.060 --> 0:03:06.210 well and it was interesting and we learned things and 0:03:06.310 --> 0:03:09.090 other people seem to enjoy it. We've thought of all 0:03:09.110 --> 0:03:12.790 these other things we could do deep dives on. It 0:03:12.850 --> 0:03:18.420 just feels really sensitive and, oh, you know, a precious topic. 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.760 And also if it's a deep dive on another person, 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.240 then it's, we're going to handle it with care and 0:03:23.650 --> 0:03:25.470 make sure people receive it in a way that we're 0:03:25.490 --> 0:03:29.030 not sitting here trying to break somebody else down, just 0:03:29.410 --> 0:03:35.120 giving information that I too found helpful. And it helps 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.720 shape what I'm going to pay attention to and what 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.660 I'm not. And narcissism, whether it's in the workplace or 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:47.880 in your home or in another type of relationship, it's 0:03:47.940 --> 0:03:54.030 very difficult to navigate, to live with. It can be 0:03:54.630 --> 0:04:00.090 so exhausting and debilitating for people that are in it 0:04:00.210 --> 0:04:01.570 or in the thick of it. And we just want 0:04:01.590 --> 0:04:04.780 to preface the episode with that, that if you're in 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:09.960 any type of relationship, we hope that this is helpful 0:04:10.340 --> 0:04:14.390 and we are grateful. thinking of you even though we 0:04:14.430 --> 0:04:16.970 don't actually know you. Like I want you to not 0:04:17.010 --> 0:04:19.729 feel alone in whatever you're going through because it may 0:04:19.750 --> 0:04:21.529 feel that way, especially if you don't have anybody you 0:04:21.550 --> 0:04:24.030 can talk to that understands. Yeah. 0:04:24.250 --> 0:04:28.230 And I'm glad you're starting out that way because one 0:04:28.250 --> 0:04:31.289 of the reasons I wanted to do narcissism in the 0:04:31.310 --> 0:04:36.240 workplace is because we all are more likely to find 0:04:36.250 --> 0:04:41.940 and encounter somebody with narcissism at work than we are 0:04:41.980 --> 0:04:45.680 to date them. than we are to have them as parents. 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.779 Because you're working with a lot of people. You have, 0:04:50.900 --> 0:04:55.270 most people have two parents. And you're most likely dating 0:04:55.310 --> 0:04:59.730 less people than you're working with. So you're more likely 0:04:59.810 --> 0:05:05.040 to run into it here. And also the work stress 0:05:05.060 --> 0:05:09.860 that can put on people. Studies have shown that people that, 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.510 this is me trying to talk really slow. But studies 0:05:13.570 --> 0:05:17.430 have shown that people that work with or have a 0:05:17.470 --> 0:05:23.970 boss that exhibits narcissism have higher likelihood of having cardiovascular disease, 0:05:24.430 --> 0:05:27.360 higher likelihood of having a heart attack, higher likelihood of 0:05:27.570 --> 0:05:31.140 having a stroke. And that's just physical health. They also 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.760 are more likely to have GI issues. They're more likely 0:05:34.779 --> 0:05:39.280 to use substances. And on the other hand, it also 0:05:39.500 --> 0:05:43.609 affects anxiety, depression, and all that in the mental health field. 0:05:43.650 --> 0:05:47.289 So this isn't just we want to identify narcissists and 0:05:47.350 --> 0:05:49.450 bash them. No, that's not what this is at all. 0:05:50.350 --> 0:05:56.070 I actually have a lot of empathy for people with narcissism. Narcissism. 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:03.659 Are you trying to think about talking so slow? Yeah, 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.240 as do I. And we've talked about that on a 0:06:06.260 --> 0:06:11.849 previous episode recently about how it's like, oh, shoot, you know, 0:06:12.110 --> 0:06:15.620 having compassion for why someone is behaving the way that 0:06:15.660 --> 0:06:21.820 they are. However, your compassion doesn't have to be, your 0:06:21.860 --> 0:06:23.160 compassion can come with boundaries. 0:06:23.420 --> 0:06:27.630 Right. Yeah. Narcissism comes from a wound. You're not born 0:06:27.650 --> 0:06:30.170 with it. So that's where our compassion can come, that 0:06:30.210 --> 0:06:35.010 these are human beings. And yeah, what we want this, 0:06:35.150 --> 0:06:37.940 what I'll speak for myself, what I want people to 0:06:38.150 --> 0:06:40.400 glean from this is if you have been in a 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.850 really what you would describe as chaotic or toxic work environment, 0:06:44.910 --> 0:06:47.950 this might help put some pieces together. And then we're 0:06:47.970 --> 0:06:50.290 going to give you a little information on, okay, well, 0:06:50.450 --> 0:06:52.450 if this is where, if this is what I'm dealing with, 0:06:53.380 --> 0:06:54.940 this is what I can do to make things better 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:55.420 for myself. 0:06:56.100 --> 0:06:58.800 And another reason why I wanted to set up probably the, 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.839 why we were a little shy to jump on this 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:04.960 out of the gate is similar to a lot of 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:09.610 things you see on social media. There are people, a 0:07:09.670 --> 0:07:12.960 lot of people can get, called a narcissist when it 0:07:13.060 --> 0:07:17.050 doesn't mean that they are. Just because someone checks even 0:07:17.070 --> 0:07:21.630 a few of the boxes, it doesn't mean they have NPD, 0:07:23.270 --> 0:07:25.670 which is the, isn't that the way we say it 0:07:25.690 --> 0:07:26.310 with the DSM-5? 0:07:26.450 --> 0:07:30.660 And I mean, yes. So there are, I think there's 0:07:30.700 --> 0:07:34.340 like nine or 10 traits of narcissism in the DSM. 0:07:34.380 --> 0:07:35.860 And I think you have to have five of them. 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:38.160 Don't quote me on that, but it's something like that. 0:07:39.100 --> 0:07:42.000 We all, every single human being is going to have 0:07:42.010 --> 0:07:44.360 a trait or two of narcissism. We actually need a 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.700 healthy amount of narcissism to survive. It allows us to 0:07:47.740 --> 0:07:50.920 go after things. It allows us to have self-confidence. It 0:07:50.940 --> 0:07:55.040 allows us to like ourselves. In a nutshell, narcissism means 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:57.900 like self-worship. So we need to have a little bit 0:07:57.940 --> 0:08:01.580 of an ego to be successful in this world. So 0:08:01.620 --> 0:08:03.000 we're all going to have a little bit of that. 0:08:03.620 --> 0:08:10.290 And when you say we all, like literally. Everybody. Me, Kat, CryoKat. Everybody, 0:08:10.310 --> 0:08:11.250 everybody listening. 0:08:11.290 --> 0:08:13.250 Yeah, all of you. All of you. 0:08:13.550 --> 0:08:17.620 There is absolutely an example, a day, a time where 0:08:17.650 --> 0:08:23.640 you had some sort of narcissistic behavior, more than likely. 0:08:23.660 --> 0:08:26.080 I know I'm making a blatant statement there, but there 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.940 are times where it's like, oh, but that doesn't equal narcissists. 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.600 Yeah. Narcissism is pervasive. So that means that it is always, 0:08:35.140 --> 0:08:38.510 all the time, forever. It doesn't go away. It doesn't 0:08:38.590 --> 0:08:41.750 just show up in your friendships or at work. It 0:08:41.809 --> 0:08:43.870 shows up at work and in your friendships and in 0:08:43.910 --> 0:08:46.890 your relationships and on your own. It shows up when 0:08:46.929 --> 0:08:52.140 you order food at a restaurant and when you're pumping 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.179 gas at the gas station. Like it's always with you. 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:59.500 So that's a big part that differentiates between like when 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.000 some of us, like a trait might show up in 0:09:02.020 --> 0:09:05.490 a certain area versus this is pervasive. It is all 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.400 the time. You don't just see like, oh, they are 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:11.860 such a perfect wife and mom and then they're just 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:16.589 terrible at work. Well, it would blend over or bleed over. 0:09:16.809 --> 0:09:19.810 When it's happening in the workplace, it's likely showing up 0:09:20.510 --> 0:09:25.510 at home somehow too. There's no– they can't turn it 0:09:25.670 --> 0:09:28.589 on at work and turn it off around others. 0:09:28.770 --> 0:09:31.810 It's who they are. So a personality disorder is who 0:09:31.870 --> 0:09:36.050 somebody is. And yeah– There's a lot of manipulation involved 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:40.280 in narcissism, so you can hide it at times and 0:09:40.340 --> 0:09:43.980 you can turn things up and turn things down a 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.500 little bit, but it's going to bleed at some point. 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:49.920 It's not only going to be in this one area 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.350 and you're not going to be like, this person is 0:09:52.450 --> 0:09:56.349 perfect over here, but not over here. If you have 0:09:56.410 --> 0:09:59.250 a boss that is this way, they're probably showing up 0:09:59.290 --> 0:10:02.540 in certain ways. with their family and friends too. They 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.460 might not have all clued into it yet. Like not 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:09.900 everybody might know what's going on because not everybody always 0:10:10.020 --> 0:10:12.740 knows that they're dealing with a narcissist when they're dealing 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.520 with one. Most of us have probably had experiences with 0:10:16.610 --> 0:10:31.140 people with narcissism and we just don't realize it. So 0:10:31.210 --> 0:10:33.990 there's like, it's like twofold. Sometimes we're like throw it 0:10:34.050 --> 0:10:35.870 at the wall too much. We like call too many 0:10:35.890 --> 0:10:41.270 people narcissism, narcissists. And then sometimes we excuse behavior or 0:10:41.309 --> 0:10:43.490 we don't see certain behavior because we're looking at somebody 0:10:43.510 --> 0:10:47.439 through a certain light. Um, Anyway, the point of this 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:49.730 is not– this episode is not to diagnose. That's why 0:10:49.750 --> 0:10:52.450 I'm not even going through the criteria that's in the 0:10:52.470 --> 0:10:56.390 DSM because that's not the most important thing. I don't 0:10:56.410 --> 0:10:57.870 want us all to go out with like a sheet 0:10:57.910 --> 0:11:00.290 of paper being like, do they check these boxes? 0:11:00.490 --> 0:11:01.470 Yeah. 0:11:01.670 --> 0:11:04.890 Because to be diagnosed, you really need to go to 0:11:05.230 --> 0:11:09.210 a mental health professional. And most people with MPD are 0:11:09.270 --> 0:11:11.930 not going to a mental health professional to be diagnosed 0:11:11.980 --> 0:11:18.780 for this. I will say that– most narcissists are men. 0:11:19.429 --> 0:11:22.710 So sometimes it feels like that when we're talking about them. 0:11:22.970 --> 0:11:25.830 It's because it's actually true. I don't have the why, 0:11:25.850 --> 0:11:30.370 the scientific reason on that, but according to the DSM, 0:11:31.070 --> 0:11:34.569 most people that are diagnosed are men. So just a 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:38.179 little tidbit. Women also can have this, though. 0:11:38.980 --> 0:11:42.400 Yes. But most being men. 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:47.510 Okay, so we kind of covered... what narcissism in a 0:11:47.570 --> 0:11:49.770 nutshell is right there. 0:11:50.410 --> 0:11:56.980 Without listing the symptoms or the behaviors or the traits. 0:11:57.020 --> 0:11:57.420 The traits. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:11:58.439 Yeah, the traits. 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.800 So two major things that I would look at, this 0:12:02.860 --> 0:12:05.520 is not, we're not going to the DSM right now, 0:12:05.590 --> 0:12:08.550 but like two major things that all narcissists are going to, 0:12:08.570 --> 0:12:15.160 I want to say encounter, going to have are a 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:20.610 grandiose sense of self, which is, you know, they think 0:12:20.650 --> 0:12:26.569 very highly of themselves, and a lack of empathy. Now, 0:12:26.610 --> 0:12:31.030 what's hard about that is some narcissists at times can 0:12:31.670 --> 0:12:35.850 turn on that empathy, but it's not true empathy. So 0:12:35.950 --> 0:12:38.980 they also can be very cold. And there's four types 0:12:39.030 --> 0:12:41.219 of narcissism. We're not going to get super, super deep 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:44.870 into the four types There's like the overt narcissist, which 0:12:44.970 --> 0:12:46.890 is the one that I think most of us think about. 0:12:47.530 --> 0:12:50.860 That is a very big, loud character. You can tell 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.660 that they like themselves. They kind of seem obsessed with themselves. 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.980 And there's a covert narcissist, which plays more of a 0:12:58.020 --> 0:13:01.400 victim role, where the overt is like, I'm the best 0:13:01.420 --> 0:13:04.839 of the best. The covert is, I'm the worst of 0:13:04.900 --> 0:13:09.500 the worst. That one's really tricky. And then there's malignant, 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.420 which that one is the one that's going to like 0:13:12.870 --> 0:13:14.470 not stab you in the back but like stab you 0:13:14.490 --> 0:13:17.230 in the front like they are so cold and so 0:13:17.309 --> 0:13:20.870 mean and they get joy and pain joy and other 0:13:20.890 --> 0:13:23.990 people's pain so they get sometimes have or have you 0:13:24.010 --> 0:13:28.330 ever experienced like somebody making a joke about somebody to 0:13:28.350 --> 0:13:31.489 their face and just getting so much joy out of 0:13:31.530 --> 0:13:35.870 making somebody else feel so uncomfortable and bad about themselves Thankfully, 0:13:35.929 --> 0:13:40.100 I don't think I have. I'm like, I have. But 0:13:40.140 --> 0:13:42.199 there are certain types of people. 0:13:41.980 --> 0:13:45.059 Who- In the workplace, did you? Or was this a personal. 0:13:45.260 --> 0:13:48.120 This is more personal. Yeah. There's certain people that you 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.579 can sit in a room with and I'm covering my face. 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.050 I'm so embarrassed or so uncomfortable for the people around me. 0:13:54.429 --> 0:13:56.700 And the thought I have when that stuff happens is, 0:13:57.210 --> 0:14:00.390 how does this person not feel uncomfortable? Because they have 0:14:00.429 --> 0:14:03.840 no empathy. So they can say things that are so- 0:14:05.460 --> 0:14:09.400 Out of touch that I might be like, how could 0:14:09.420 --> 0:14:10.570 you say that to that person's face? 0:14:10.610 --> 0:14:12.069 Oh, well, I've seen that on TV. 0:14:12.230 --> 0:14:13.670 Yeah, I'm sure you've seen it on TV. 0:14:13.690 --> 0:14:15.270 I've seen it on the news. 0:14:15.590 --> 0:14:16.350 Because they. 0:14:16.390 --> 0:14:19.190 Yeah, I just haven't been... Or to my memory at 0:14:19.230 --> 0:14:23.090 this moment, I can't recall somebody behaving that way in 0:14:24.090 --> 0:14:24.390 a room. 0:14:24.530 --> 0:14:28.609 The malignant is not going to be as... You're not 0:14:28.630 --> 0:14:30.950 going to encounter it as much, but when you encounter it, 0:14:31.030 --> 0:14:35.479 it's palpable. There's no... And then there's a communal narcissist, 0:14:35.510 --> 0:14:38.960 which that's the type of person who is like the do-gooder. 0:14:39.340 --> 0:14:42.160 Like they're the one that's, you know, heading a charity. 0:14:42.180 --> 0:14:44.940 So you're like, how could they be a narcissist? Or 0:14:45.220 --> 0:14:53.140 they get a lot of power and ego from helping 0:14:53.180 --> 0:14:55.900 other people. So they're not helping you to help. They're 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.380 helping to get the recognition of helping. 0:14:58.600 --> 0:14:58.780 Got it. 0:14:58.780 --> 0:15:04.070 And so you think I'm such a good person. all 0:15:04.090 --> 0:15:07.369 of these people, again, I'm saying this with care and 0:15:07.410 --> 0:15:12.090 kindness because all this comes from a wound. All of 0:15:12.130 --> 0:15:14.670 these people are manipulative. And so a lot of their 0:15:14.710 --> 0:15:16.710 behavior is not like, you can't just look at it 0:15:16.730 --> 0:15:20.370 as face value. And that's where I think it gets 0:15:20.390 --> 0:15:22.770 a little tricky for a lot of people when they 0:15:22.850 --> 0:15:26.070 see like the communal type of narcissist doing something. Well, 0:15:26.090 --> 0:15:28.030 they can't be a narcissist. Look what they did for me. 0:15:29.090 --> 0:15:33.450 But they might've done that for you To have your 0:15:33.570 --> 0:15:37.090 admiration and that helps them get to where they need 0:15:37.110 --> 0:15:39.770 to be. But as soon as you are no longer 0:15:40.670 --> 0:15:44.130 giving them something that they need that's going to help them, 0:15:44.630 --> 0:15:49.830 they might drop you. We'll get more into that. So 0:15:49.910 --> 0:15:54.070 in the workplace, a narcissist is going to have the 0:15:55.430 --> 0:15:58.700 traits of a highly successful person, just the nature of 0:15:58.750 --> 0:16:01.760 who they are because of how they have chosen besides 0:16:01.860 --> 0:16:06.500 the covert narcissist, right? That one's probably going to not 0:16:06.540 --> 0:16:10.700 be in an interview striving for greatness. They're not going 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.060 to be talking very highly about themselves. But all the 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:19.610 other types of narcissists look very confident and they aren't 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.710 afraid to go after things. Again, they think very highly 0:16:22.750 --> 0:16:25.730 of themselves. They're good at selling themselves. And so you're 0:16:25.750 --> 0:16:30.210 going to find a lot of CEOs, a lot of, 0:16:30.590 --> 0:16:34.030 just bosses in general. I mean, not every company or 0:16:34.090 --> 0:16:42.630 every workplace has, you're encountering a CEO, but high level positions. C-suite. C-suite, 0:16:42.730 --> 0:16:44.990 which Amy and I recently learned about. 0:16:45.030 --> 0:16:48.070 Whoa, whoa, whoa. That was at least over a year ago. 0:16:48.090 --> 0:16:49.170 Okay, I was going to say, I think mine was 0:16:49.190 --> 0:16:49.980 like five years ago. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:54.660 Okay, I will admit mine was, we're coming up actually 0:16:54.700 --> 0:16:57.960 on two years of me knowing C-suite because I won't forget. 0:16:57.980 --> 0:16:59.600 Good anniversary. It was. 0:17:01.780 --> 0:17:08.700 November, October, November, two years ago that I learned. Okay. 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.020 Well, I wish I knew my date. 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.000 In case anybody listening isn't familiar with C-suite, it's the 0:17:15.580 --> 0:17:23.030 executives that are CEO, CFO, CMO, and they likely have 0:17:23.109 --> 0:17:26.750 a office with a window. They have a suite. So 0:17:26.770 --> 0:17:30.850 they're the C-suite executives. Yeah. And if you did not 0:17:30.890 --> 0:17:34.450 know that, No shame. Yeah. Because not everybody is in 0:17:34.570 --> 0:17:36.450 that corporate life. 0:17:36.690 --> 0:17:39.110 But a lot of C-suite members, this is not all 0:17:39.130 --> 0:17:40.470 of them. Okay. 0:17:40.530 --> 0:17:43.389 Is this because they, in order to get to the 0:17:43.430 --> 0:17:45.570 top where they got there, they kind of had to 0:17:45.670 --> 0:17:47.410 do whatever it took to get there? 0:17:47.650 --> 0:17:51.040 I mean, some people that would, yeah. Some people they're ruthless. 0:17:51.100 --> 0:17:53.859 And so, yeah, you're going to do that. Sometimes it's just, 0:17:54.580 --> 0:17:56.960 they don't have to be ruthless, but they are just so, 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.730 I think the The ego, it helps somebody in an 0:18:02.810 --> 0:18:06.230 interview process, helps people with relationships. They're going to be 0:18:06.650 --> 0:18:09.949 climbing the ladder in a different way that you and 0:18:09.990 --> 0:18:10.810 I might climb the ladder. 0:18:11.030 --> 0:18:15.650 Well, and having that ego or that confidence in yourself 0:18:16.190 --> 0:18:19.869 too helps you get further along because you believe you 0:18:19.910 --> 0:18:21.990 can do it. It's almost this, some of us have 0:18:22.030 --> 0:18:24.810 to act as if in order to get it. And 0:18:24.850 --> 0:18:26.370 we're like, in our brains, we're like, you got this. 0:18:26.410 --> 0:18:29.430 You are amazing. You're awesome. acting as if you you 0:18:29.609 --> 0:18:31.530 are the leader you are in control you are but 0:18:31.570 --> 0:18:34.150 like they they don't have to act as if because 0:18:34.530 --> 0:18:38.590 unless they're the covert then they believe they really are 0:18:38.630 --> 0:18:39.370 the best. 0:18:39.850 --> 0:18:44.629 And there is a yes they do believe that in 0:18:44.710 --> 0:18:51.659 certain circumstances and also it is a um survival strategy 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:52.260 they have taught. 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:54.780 Themselves okay because this is where i also get a 0:18:54.820 --> 0:18:57.960 little off because you hear that so many narcissists truly 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.210 are so insecure so then it gets tricky because you're 0:19:01.250 --> 0:19:05.250 like well they they're able to believe they are the 0:19:05.290 --> 0:19:09.630 best and then also that's rooted in insecurity. 0:19:09.850 --> 0:19:13.649 Right okay so their actual sense of self is very 0:19:13.730 --> 0:19:19.460 fragile okay um Which is why sometimes if you go 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.740 against a narcissist, if you stop shining whatever light or 0:19:22.780 --> 0:19:27.359 you try to expose them, they can turn on you 0:19:27.380 --> 0:19:30.240 in an instant. There's not a lot of healthy dialogue. 0:19:30.820 --> 0:19:33.960 There's not a lot of open for feedback. They can't 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:39.160 hear that because their wound has already attacked their sense 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:43.660 of self and who they are so deeply that they've 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:48.879 kind of created a lot of safeguards around that. So yes, 0:19:49.369 --> 0:19:52.619 they might not. always even know that either, but I 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:54.280 just think it is helpful. I'm glad you said that 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.890 for us to know, because it can be so frustrating 0:19:57.950 --> 0:20:00.590 that like these people look like they think that they're 0:20:00.630 --> 0:20:03.570 best of the best and all this stuff. What it 0:20:03.650 --> 0:20:07.300 really comes down to is deep, deep, deep, deep, deep insecurities. 0:20:08.890 --> 0:20:11.990 There's no point in bringing that up to them on 0:20:12.030 --> 0:20:12.430 your part. 0:20:12.710 --> 0:20:15.710 Oh, like that won't be helpful, especially in the workplace. 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.920 Yes. Yes, yes, yes. And that's something that I wanted 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.659 to touch on is if you notice this or you 0:20:22.700 --> 0:20:25.080 feel this or you see this, once you spot it, 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:31.090 it can be so frustrating. Once you see the things 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.389 and the patterns and all that can be so frustrating 0:20:33.490 --> 0:20:35.110 because you just want to be like, this is not right. 0:20:35.150 --> 0:20:38.129 This is not fair. I see what you're doing. calling 0:20:38.170 --> 0:20:42.410 it out is not going to help you because the 0:20:43.190 --> 0:20:47.250 systems in the workplace are set up. We'll get into 0:20:47.290 --> 0:20:50.240 this a little later, much like a family system. And 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.320 the system is working on this dysfunction. You calling that 0:20:53.460 --> 0:20:55.800 out is most likely going to make you look like 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:56.679 the chaotic one. 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:04.310 So let me ask you, is that because the narcissists, 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.020 is so like, who's thinking your chaotics? Other people on 0:21:08.060 --> 0:21:10.320 the team, everybody, because they stay calm. 0:21:10.859 --> 0:21:19.920 Yeah. So, well, yes, the, the narcissist is going to 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:24.820 manipulate you to make you feel crazy, crazy. But also 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:29.140 the system is set up to, again, like think dysfunctional family. 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:35.420 We recently talked about the dysfunctional, um, roles in families, 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:39.240 like the placater, the hero, the mascot, the scapegoat, all 0:21:39.260 --> 0:21:43.160 of that. So much like a dysfunctional family, your workplace 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:45.600 is going to operate like that. There is a level 0:21:45.660 --> 0:21:50.040 of homeostasis, which is balance, means balance, even though the 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.720 balance is unhealthy and toxic. It's still a balance of 0:21:53.780 --> 0:21:57.480 toxic and it works and everybody's playing their role. So 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:02.360 when you start to notice this behavior, when I feel 0:22:02.380 --> 0:22:04.600 like I'm getting like backwards because I haven't talked about 0:22:04.859 --> 0:22:10.830 certain things, but when you stop being fed the like 0:22:11.790 --> 0:22:15.490 narcissist nutrients that are like helping you survive in this place, 0:22:15.510 --> 0:22:17.629 when you get discarded, when you start to see the 0:22:17.670 --> 0:22:22.390 light and you want to, it gets very frustrating. You 0:22:22.410 --> 0:22:25.310 want to say something, but that doesn't mean that everybody 0:22:25.330 --> 0:22:28.040 else has seen that. And so they're still getting what 0:22:28.060 --> 0:22:31.399 they need out of this situation. So they don't want you. 0:22:31.750 --> 0:22:33.689 to ruin this. They don't want you to mess with 0:22:33.710 --> 0:22:40.729 the system. Much like in a family, if a family 0:22:40.790 --> 0:22:44.070 member is no longer willing to play by the rules 0:22:44.130 --> 0:22:48.030 of this family that are dysfunctional and toxic, maybe they're 0:22:48.070 --> 0:22:50.190 no longer willing to just sweep things under the rug 0:22:50.230 --> 0:22:52.720 and they want to talk about things and they want 0:22:52.820 --> 0:22:55.460 to have confrontations and they all want to do that. 0:22:56.340 --> 0:22:59.680 They're going to look like the scapegoat because nobody else 0:22:59.740 --> 0:23:03.800 wants to do that. Like, We're fine. We're thriving over 0:23:03.859 --> 0:23:06.440 here doing it this way. Please don't mess with this. 0:23:07.619 --> 0:23:09.940 And so that's what's most likely going to happen to you. 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:15.700 And it's not going to– you're probably going to feel– 0:23:16.530 --> 0:23:18.929 there's going to probably be a punishment for you versus, oh, 0:23:19.430 --> 0:23:23.030 I saved the work environment. Now it's healthy again. It 0:23:23.050 --> 0:23:25.930 doesn't always work like that. And so we'll talk about 0:23:26.010 --> 0:23:30.629 what to do. But what's really frustrating for me is– 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:34.120