WEBVTT - Can We Eliminate "Mom Guilt"? A Conversation with Dr. Jennifer Reid EP 470

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<v Speaker 1>Hi.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,

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<v Speaker 2>and speaker.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,

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<v Speaker 3>and course creator. We are two working parents who love

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<v Speaker 3>our careers and our families.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to best of both worlds.

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<v Speaker 1>Here we talk about how real.

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<v Speaker 2>Women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring

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<v Speaker 2>out childcare to mapping out long.

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<v Speaker 1>Term career goals.

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<v Speaker 2>We want you to get the most out of life.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to best of both worlds, This says Laura. This

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<v Speaker 2>episode is airing in early August of twenty twenty six.

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<v Speaker 2>Sarah is going to be interviewing doctor Jennifer Reid, who

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<v Speaker 2>is an academic and expert on guilt. Why don't you

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<v Speaker 2>tell us a little bit about her, Sarah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, she's actually a psychiatrist, and so she comes from

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<v Speaker 3>that mental health background and these patients actively and guilt

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<v Speaker 3>was one of the common themes that she noticed. So

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<v Speaker 3>she decided to explore it further and write about it,

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<v Speaker 3>and so we talk all about that in this episode.

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<v Speaker 3>I was curious, Laura, because I feel like you might

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<v Speaker 3>have a rant around mom guilt, and also that you

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<v Speaker 3>might be so much impervious to it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, I mean it's more that why nobody talks

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<v Speaker 2>about dad guilt, because I feel like there should be

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<v Speaker 2>way more dad guilt if we're gonna have mom guilt,

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<v Speaker 2>because mom guilt tends to be pitched as this idea

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<v Speaker 2>that you are not doing enough for your kids, you

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<v Speaker 2>are not spending enough time with your kids, and on average,

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<v Speaker 2>dads are spending way less time with their children than

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<v Speaker 2>mothers are. And as part of that, dads tend to

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<v Speaker 2>be doing less sort of organizational things, less planning stuff

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<v Speaker 2>out for the kids, all those things than moms do

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<v Speaker 2>different in different families, but if you look at sort

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<v Speaker 2>of population wide time use, that tends to be the case.

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<v Speaker 2>So from that perspective, it feels like there should just

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<v Speaker 2>be a ton of literature talking about how dads can

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<v Speaker 2>feel less guilty about this minimal time that they are

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<v Speaker 2>spending with their children because they're off doing other things,

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<v Speaker 2>and how you should feel about that and ways to

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<v Speaker 2>combat that or whatever, and yet there's none. There's like

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<v Speaker 2>almost zero out there about dad guilt. And I'm like, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>well that's interesting. So if there isn't, if this is

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<v Speaker 2>not like the cover of every magazine pitched to men

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<v Speaker 2>who have children. Why is it given to women as

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<v Speaker 2>like a thing we should even be thinking about. I

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<v Speaker 2>am sure that there are circumstances where people should feel

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<v Speaker 2>guilty about things. I mean, every mother is not perfect, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and we certainly do things that are not awesome. I

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<v Speaker 2>would say in general, guilt has a sort of social purpose.

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<v Speaker 2>Guilt is what you feel when you have wronged someone

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<v Speaker 2>and you feel bad about it, and so you want

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<v Speaker 2>to repair the relationship. And as such, it's kind of good,

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<v Speaker 2>right in that if you have caused a rift with

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<v Speaker 2>a close family or friend, like for the good of

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<v Speaker 2>the tribe, you need to repair that, and so you

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<v Speaker 2>feel bad until you repair it. But in most of

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<v Speaker 2>these cases, like nobody has been harmed, like nothing happened.

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<v Speaker 2>If your neighbor was at the basketball game for the

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<v Speaker 2>kid and took them home and you were not, like

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<v Speaker 2>there was no harm, Like nothing bad happened, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>so that's not an appropriate use of the guilt social emotion.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, Jennifer reagrees with you wholeheartedly, and so all right,

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<v Speaker 3>good her entire book. I mean, it could be entitled

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<v Speaker 3>why mom guilt shouldn't be a thing, so I think

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<v Speaker 3>you will, especially.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm sure there's circumstances where it could be

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<v Speaker 2>like if you accidentally deleted your kids like minecraft thing

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<v Speaker 2>that they spend hours creating, Yes, you should feel guilty

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<v Speaker 2>and you should try to like make amends with them

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever. It's just that's not usually what it is, right,

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<v Speaker 2>That's not like, oh my god, I broke your lego

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<v Speaker 2>set that you spent hours creating, Like, yes, then you

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<v Speaker 2>should feel guilty and like try to apologize and make

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<v Speaker 2>it up to the kid. It's stuff about like you

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<v Speaker 2>were working and earning money so your kid could do

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<v Speaker 2>fun things like how dare you?

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<v Speaker 3>And unfortunately, we have this weird social construct where many

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<v Speaker 3>of us, myself included, feel those things even though you're

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<v Speaker 3>absolutely one hundred percent right. Like I was like, when

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<v Speaker 3>do I feel mom guilt? So I actually think I

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<v Speaker 3>feel less mom guilt than average, maybe partly because of

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<v Speaker 3>this wonderful podcast and our listeners and the time I

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<v Speaker 3>spend with you. But when there's like a school party

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<v Speaker 3>and they're like, who wants to bring stuff? And I'm like,

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<v Speaker 3>oh my god, it's in two days and I don't

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<v Speaker 3>want to bring stuff, and why don't you just ask

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<v Speaker 3>for money? It would be so much easier. And then

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like, I'm not doing it, but I feel really

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<v Speaker 3>guilty about it. I feel guilt. And then I will

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<v Speaker 3>feel guilt, like the kids are on screens and I

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<v Speaker 3>know it's like, oh, they're acting like jerks because I

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<v Speaker 3>let them be on screens, and like, oh, better parent

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<v Speaker 3>would have taken them on it outing or something like that.

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<v Speaker 3>Those are my sad examples of feeling some mom guilt

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<v Speaker 3>that I would like to not feel.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I would say in general, I don't fill out.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, there are a few specific circumstances where I have,

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<v Speaker 2>like quite obviously screwed up in a way that was

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<v Speaker 2>problematic for a child in that I would feel guilty about.

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<v Speaker 2>And one that I'm remembering was when one of my

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<v Speaker 2>kids was wrestling and I had to fill out the

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<v Speaker 2>forms because it was a tournament that wasn't officially sponsored

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<v Speaker 2>by the script, and I had no idea how wrestling

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<v Speaker 2>weights work. I mean, this is stupid for little kids anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>So in my mind, he's fifty pounds, I put fifty pounds.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I learned later that everyone who's fifty pounds

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<v Speaker 2>puts forty nine, right, so that you wrestle in.

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<v Speaker 3>The not in the fifties.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that was he was with bigger kids, and

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<v Speaker 2>then he lost his matches, and that was my fault

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<v Speaker 2>because I didn't know, Like I'm not a wrestler, but

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I.

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<v Speaker 3>Don't think you could.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably there you go.

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<v Speaker 3>But you can't feel guilt for something you didn't know about.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I yeah, I guess maybe if i'd thought about

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<v Speaker 2>it longer, read more about resuing.

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<v Speaker 3>My kids were on screens and I knew I wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>giving the school the thing because I was like, I

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<v Speaker 3>categorically refuse to bring some random, like decorative gift with

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<v Speaker 3>a two days of notice, like I'm not doing it,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna be guilty about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, okay, well there you go.

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<v Speaker 2>So things that you can feel guilty about that are

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<v Speaker 2>slightly ridiculous. I don't think my kid has thought about

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<v Speaker 2>their wrestling thing at ages.

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<v Speaker 3>They're okay, but they're okay.

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<v Speaker 2>They've moved on, as have mostly I. But if I

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<v Speaker 2>ever have another child wrestle, I will keep that in mind.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Well, let's hear what doctor Jennifer Reid has

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<v Speaker 2>to say.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I am so excited today to be chatting with

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<v Speaker 3>doctor Jennifer Reid, who is a psychiatrist. She is an

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<v Speaker 3>academic who has published multiple books. Her latest on guilt

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<v Speaker 3>called Guilt Free, which is already out wherever books are sold.

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<v Speaker 3>She's affiliated with the University of Pennsylvania and she has

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<v Speaker 3>done a lot of thinking about guilt. Welcome to the podcast, Jennifer.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about it. All right.

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<v Speaker 3>So I did read your book. I thought it was excellent.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of practical tips and takeaways in there. And

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<v Speaker 3>you go in the beginning and you're very clear because

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<v Speaker 3>you want to define what is guilt, because we throw

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<v Speaker 3>that term a lot around, maybe loosely, but I guess

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<v Speaker 3>give our listeners a chance to understand what is guilt

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<v Speaker 3>versus maybe some of his cousins, shame, regret, things like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is really important to define it. Because what's

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<v Speaker 1>surprised me since the book came out in January is

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<v Speaker 1>so many women will come up and say, I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>think I had guilt. It wasn't how I was thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about this. But when I really learned about the concepts

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<v Speaker 1>or the ideas or some of the thoughts that women

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<v Speaker 1>were having in your book, I realized how much guilt

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<v Speaker 1>I was feeling. So it's like, well, that's really interesting

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<v Speaker 1>that we don't always know what those emotions are, right,

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<v Speaker 1>What is guilt? So the way I defined it was

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<v Speaker 1>just to try and make it as simple as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>That was important for me, it's important for teaching, I think,

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<v Speaker 1>to break it down that it really is the difference

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<v Speaker 1>between our xbectations of ourselves in a particular role minus

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<v Speaker 1>our perceived reality, which is minus what we believe we're

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<v Speaker 1>already doing and doing well. Perhaps, And you can see

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<v Speaker 1>that when perceived means it may not be accurate, right,

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<v Speaker 1>it may not be what's actually the reality. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think sometimes often we underplay or underestimate contributions. So guilt

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<v Speaker 1>lives in that gap between what we think we should

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<v Speaker 1>be doing and what we believe we are doing. And

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<v Speaker 1>so I think that just is a way to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of break down those thoughts. And it's different than shame

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<v Speaker 1>because guilt is more of I've done something wrong right,

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<v Speaker 1>or I've omitted something I wish I would have done,

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<v Speaker 1>where is shame is broad or it's more generalized a

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<v Speaker 1>sense of I am wrong, like my whole being, my

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<v Speaker 1>whole entity is bad or wrong, and they create different

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<v Speaker 1>reactions from us. Guilt, when it's adaptive in a very

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<v Speaker 1>specific setting, causes us to move toward that person to repair,

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<v Speaker 1>to apologize, make up for it right. Shame, on the

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<v Speaker 1>other hand, and causes us to pull back like hide.

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<v Speaker 1>We want to sort of tuck away and not let

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<v Speaker 1>that other person or those people see us, because Shane

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<v Speaker 1>really evokes that withdrawal reflex, so you can see how

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<v Speaker 1>it causes us to move in different directions in a sense,

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<v Speaker 1>but constant guilt, which so many women experience, can turn

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<v Speaker 1>into shame.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, very interesting. It's funny when you said the expectations

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<v Speaker 3>versus reality phrase. I always think about how they talk

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<v Speaker 3>about how suffering can be expectations versus reality. But I

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<v Speaker 3>think the difference there is that guilt has to do

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<v Speaker 3>with the shoulds that should be that I should be

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<v Speaker 3>doing this versus what I think I am doing, or

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<v Speaker 3>is the suffering. It's more like what I think is

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<v Speaker 3>happening versus should be happening, maybe but less personable, but

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<v Speaker 3>kind of interesting there. I also have a question which

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<v Speaker 3>is like a spinoff from this, which is like does

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<v Speaker 3>guilt have to involve another person. Can there be guilt

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<v Speaker 3>in a vacuum or no?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's interesting it is described as a social emotion

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<v Speaker 1>that maybe it came on sort of after our very

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<v Speaker 1>primary emotions like happiness, sadness, fear. So often it is

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's a type of guilt called in our

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<v Speaker 1>personal guilt. But no, it doesn't have to be. It

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<v Speaker 1>can be kind of you within yourself, right that you

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<v Speaker 1>feel guilty, that you sort of let yourself down in

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<v Speaker 1>some way, like you've made a goal for yourself or

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<v Speaker 1>a plan for yourself. And then if you're like me,

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<v Speaker 1>you like rebel against it, You're like, I'm not gonna

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<v Speaker 1>listen to that goal, right, I'm gonna do what I

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<v Speaker 1>want to do. So certainly guilt can happen within ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>and not in relation to someone else. But so commonly

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<v Speaker 1>it is in those dynamics with others.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so you did mention briefly how guilt might have

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<v Speaker 3>some positive features can we focus on We're going to

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<v Speaker 3>go into a lot of the negative and why we

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<v Speaker 3>should all probably have less guilt in our lives. But

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<v Speaker 3>I guess what can guilt do for us? Or how

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<v Speaker 3>can it be harnessed in a positive way.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think, Yeah, that's so interesting on studying it

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<v Speaker 1>is that there's some idea that guilt is part of

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<v Speaker 1>those social emotions that actually allowed us as a species

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<v Speaker 1>to really thrive and grow and build communities, because it

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<v Speaker 1>does say, I fie that I see that something has

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<v Speaker 1>happened to you, and that i've I noticed that I'm

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<v Speaker 1>to blame for it, and because I care about you,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to try and do something right. Guilt because

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<v Speaker 1>we care, We wouldn't feel guilty if we don't care.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's why it's important that some guilt exists. The

0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:20.640
<v Speaker 1>total absence of guilt is pathological. But what I write

0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.240
<v Speaker 1>about with Guilt Free is how do we relinquish this

0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of constant guilt that's so broad, that's so generalized.

0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.000
<v Speaker 1>It's not oh, I've made this one mistake I need

0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.720
<v Speaker 1>to apologize. It's I'm getting everything wrong right, or I'm

0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.360
<v Speaker 1>not doing anything right, to sort of hyperbole in language.

0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.280
<v Speaker 1>You hear a lot where there shoulds come out or

0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.520
<v Speaker 1>I never, I always. That tells us that this is

0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.640
<v Speaker 1>the kind of maladaptive guilt that's really causing a lot

0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:45.240
<v Speaker 1>of suffering.

0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.520
<v Speaker 3>That makes sense. And there's kind of like a pain

0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.480
<v Speaker 3>analogy there too, right, Like pain is useful up to

0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.240
<v Speaker 3>a point, it might tell us get your hand off

0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:56.120
<v Speaker 3>the stove, but chronic generalized pain has definitely passed the

0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.360
<v Speaker 3>point where it's doing anything good for anyone. I also

0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.000
<v Speaker 3>just wanted to circle back and mention that it is

0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.800
<v Speaker 3>pathologic to never feel guilt, and that makes sense, I guess,

0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:09.920
<v Speaker 3>like a narcissist or a sociopathic personality. I don't even

0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.480
<v Speaker 3>know if those are appropriate terms anymore, but they might

0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:13.240
<v Speaker 3>not have any guilt.

0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Is that accurate? Because we know that children as young

0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.840
<v Speaker 1>as three, maybe even younger, we're always learning new things,

0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.079
<v Speaker 1>start to learn that they are a separate entity from

0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.840
<v Speaker 1>someone around them, right like your kids starts to recognize

0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:29.200
<v Speaker 1>that they are not the only being in the universe.

0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.480
<v Speaker 1>It takes a while and it's hard fought, but they

0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.160
<v Speaker 1>also start to learn empathy, or the ability to understand

0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:39.120
<v Speaker 1>and sort of feel what someone else is feeling. And

0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.160
<v Speaker 1>so the absence of guilt may mean that someone really

0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 1>is lacking in the ability to empathize, to sort of

0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:50.120
<v Speaker 1>feel what someone else is feeling, and that itself is pathological.

0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.040
<v Speaker 1>That can be a sociopathy that someone is unable to

0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:58.480
<v Speaker 1>feel what another person is feeling, and therefore harm that

0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.679
<v Speaker 1>they give to them it doesn't affect them because they

0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.880
<v Speaker 1>just don't resonate in that way. So that would be

0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.079
<v Speaker 1>kind of that abnormality. But I think you find people

0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.400
<v Speaker 1>who aren't sociopaths who maybe don't feel as much guilt

0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.080
<v Speaker 1>as others. Even men and women are very different in

0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.360
<v Speaker 1>that way. I've certainly seen in my practice.

0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.360
<v Speaker 3>Ooh, and I definitely want to get into that, but

0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.600
<v Speaker 3>first let's just like kind of go as we just

0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:23.640
<v Speaker 3>went down kind of the positive side a little bit,

0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.679
<v Speaker 3>But on the negative side, you talked about it being maladaptive,

0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.720
<v Speaker 3>especially when it is more generalized, when it is more chronic.

0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.560
<v Speaker 3>Is that more about the fact that it just is

0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:34.760
<v Speaker 3>going to make us feel behind because I assume that

0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.000
<v Speaker 3>living with a constant sense that you are doing guilty

0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.120
<v Speaker 3>things can lead to shame or just lead to general

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.559
<v Speaker 3>negative feelings or you also kind of mentioned and hint

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.200
<v Speaker 3>at this in your work, it can actually drive some

0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:47.359
<v Speaker 3>pretty poor decisions.

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely, when guilt isn't making the decisions, it's not

0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.760
<v Speaker 1>based on what we need, what we want, what we desire.

0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.960
<v Speaker 1>It really is based on what we believe we should do,

0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.239
<v Speaker 1>and I think that can lead to things like resentment

0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:07.960
<v Speaker 1>or disappointing ourselves, certainly in those situations. So yes, guilt

0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.440
<v Speaker 1>makes us feel badly by design, because then it drives

0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.640
<v Speaker 1>us to do something about it, right, because it's uncomfortable.

0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 1>The trouble is, I think, particularly women working moms, especially

0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.760
<v Speaker 1>though many many other women in other areas, when they

0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 1>feel guilty, it drives them to do more, and so

0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.640
<v Speaker 1>they take on more, and they do more tasks, and

0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.920
<v Speaker 1>they become sort of hypercompetent in taking care of everything,

0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:34.760
<v Speaker 1>managing everything in front of them, all the cognitive load

0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.800
<v Speaker 1>of appointments and I need to schedule this, and I

0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.680
<v Speaker 1>need to remember this. And I think guilt can drive

0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.600
<v Speaker 1>us to take on more and more until we're just exhausted.

0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.000
<v Speaker 1>We're still feeling guilty, so we still feel like we're

0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.320
<v Speaker 1>not doing enough, and it pushes out other things that

0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:57.000
<v Speaker 1>we might want to feel joy, fun, silliness, relaxation, connection,

0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 1>all those things, because guilt tells us you're an inward girl,

0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.440
<v Speaker 1>and fix it, make it better, do something more as

0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:07.080
<v Speaker 1>opposed to look outward, connect with others, or I'll see

0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:11.000
<v Speaker 1>that the problem might actually be out there, not necessarily

0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:12.920
<v Speaker 1>one that we can fix by ourselves.

0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.440
<v Speaker 3>And I know people are listening to this and kind

0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:17.880
<v Speaker 3>of already thinking about their own scenarios and how this

0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.800
<v Speaker 3>might apply. We're going to take a quick break, and

0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.240
<v Speaker 3>then we're going to get back specifically into the concept

0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:38.880
<v Speaker 3>of mom guilt. All right, we are back, and Laura

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 3>and I couldn't help but discuss as we kind of

0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:45.360
<v Speaker 3>thought about this topic, the fact that mom guilt is

0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.640
<v Speaker 3>like a very common catchphrase, like you hear it, Oh,

0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.400
<v Speaker 3>I've have mom guilt. And I even kind of thought

0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.640
<v Speaker 3>about for myself, what are the instances in life that like,

0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.200
<v Speaker 3>give me quote mom guilt, and like, for example, one

0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 3>of them was when the school asks last minute for

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.520
<v Speaker 3>some kind of food item to be picked up at

0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:04.760
<v Speaker 3>the store, and I'm just like, oh my god, like

0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.840
<v Speaker 3>why couldn't this have come earlier? And I don't want

0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.520
<v Speaker 3>to do it, And honestly, what I typically do is

0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.240
<v Speaker 3>I don't do it, but I feel guilty about it.

0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:12.680
<v Speaker 3>So I guess that's in a way that's good, right,

0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.240
<v Speaker 3>because I'm not using it to make a decision that

0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.160
<v Speaker 3>really doesn't serve me. But then I also still end

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:20.120
<v Speaker 3>up feeling bad or things like I don't know, back

0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.440
<v Speaker 3>in my like pumping and breastfeeding days, I'd feel weird

0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.720
<v Speaker 3>amounts of guilt around, like I can't make enough milk,

0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.640
<v Speaker 3>which is crazy because like that's literally your physiology. So

0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:30.600
<v Speaker 3>how can you feel guilt about something that you don't

0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.120
<v Speaker 3>even have very much control over, like you're already trying

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.000
<v Speaker 3>very hard. So we started talking about mom guilt and

0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:40.320
<v Speaker 3>how these things are so common, and then she was like, well,

0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.600
<v Speaker 3>why is dad guilt never really brought up in the zeitgeist?

0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.120
<v Speaker 3>And I don't know, tell me all you know about

0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 3>mom guilt, why it exists. We'll talk about how we

0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:50.400
<v Speaker 3>can fight it in a little bit, But why is

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.960
<v Speaker 3>this just so common, so ubiquitous even in women who

0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 3>have reasonably high self regard self esteem, They like, I know,

0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.640
<v Speaker 3>I'm doing a pretty good job at life, but I

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.040
<v Speaker 3>definitely still get plagued with mom guilt.

0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Mom guild is so huge, just that some book, really

0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:06.639
<v Speaker 1>and I remember my editor kept saying, like, there's a

0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.880
<v Speaker 1>lot of good mom guild here, let's broaden this. I'm like, yes,

0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.800
<v Speaker 1>I know, it's absolutely huge, and I think there are

0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.359
<v Speaker 1>many factors. I mean, one is the way that the

0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.480
<v Speaker 1>young girls, and then throughout our lives that we're socialized

0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:19.919
<v Speaker 1>to believe that this is what a good girl or

0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.320
<v Speaker 1>a good woman does. Right, This idea about sort of

0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.280
<v Speaker 1>the maternal instinct and how that can kind of be

0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.919
<v Speaker 1>twisted and turned against us, as if that means we

0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.240
<v Speaker 1>should be able to do all of this effortlessly. We

0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.760
<v Speaker 1>should be able to breastfeed and produce just bottles and

0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:36.760
<v Speaker 1>bottles of milk. I had the same issue I was.

0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.040
<v Speaker 1>I think I was a stressed out resident. I really

0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.440
<v Speaker 1>wasn't producing much milk, and I was thinking I should

0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.199
<v Speaker 1>be able to gain this somehow, Like what can I

0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.359
<v Speaker 1>do to make this better? Because I'm getting it wrong?

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.679
<v Speaker 1>So I think we are there's a sense of what

0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.560
<v Speaker 1>is natural, and that if we don't feel like we're

0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.800
<v Speaker 1>living up to what is natural, and that's really bad. Right,

0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:56.480
<v Speaker 1>Like I should just be able to do all of this.

0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:59.080
<v Speaker 1>I should love my child unconditionally from the very moment

0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:00.800
<v Speaker 1>it comes out. We know that can take some time

0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.440
<v Speaker 1>for women to connect with their new infant. I shouldn't

0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.720
<v Speaker 1>feel depressed or anxious after babies, well most of us do, right,

0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Just those are small examples. So I think the expectations

0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.040
<v Speaker 1>that women to face to be constant caretakers. It's one

0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.160
<v Speaker 1>of the sort of four big categories I write about,

0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.120
<v Speaker 1>because we're really expected from a very young age. We're

0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.840
<v Speaker 1>the babysitters, We're the caretakers. We're the one who look

0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:25.560
<v Speaker 1>after others as if that's our natural desire, and for

0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.400
<v Speaker 1>some they really enjoy that, and that really is who

0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.280
<v Speaker 1>they are. My mom is just this nurturing woman. She

0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.240
<v Speaker 1>still like volunteers at an animal shelter and she brings

0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.040
<v Speaker 1>too to friends. That's just who she is. But not

0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.760
<v Speaker 1>all of us are that way. And that doesn't mean

0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.960
<v Speaker 1>that we're not wonderful people or a good mother, right,

0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.200
<v Speaker 1>that we have different things that are important to us

0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:51.199
<v Speaker 1>and that we want to value. So expectations are absolutely huge,

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.359
<v Speaker 1>and we exist in a society where the mother is

0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.400
<v Speaker 1>the one who receives that email typically saying hey, last minute,

0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:00.480
<v Speaker 1>can you drop off some food or we really need

0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.040
<v Speaker 1>a chaperone or someone sick. My sister is a surgeon,

0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:06.280
<v Speaker 1>and she is still the one that gets all the

0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.840
<v Speaker 1>phone calls that kids need to be picked up, where

0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:13.160
<v Speaker 1>there's she's the one scrambling to bake something for bake sales.

0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.080
<v Speaker 1>I mean, to her credit, she comes up with these

0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:17.399
<v Speaker 1>creative ideas which I'm like, why are you doing this?

0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.800
<v Speaker 1>And it's guilt. It's like, well, I've gone a lot

0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.720
<v Speaker 1>for work, so I need to do this to make

0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.520
<v Speaker 1>up for it. And that's just the sense that we

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:31.280
<v Speaker 1>can truly have at all without effort, without help, when

0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:35.240
<v Speaker 1>we used to raise our kids in communities and now

0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.399
<v Speaker 1>we're trying to do this in isolation all ourselves. Like

0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 1>I could go on and on about this, but there's

0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:41.919
<v Speaker 1>just so many different factors at play.

0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.720
<v Speaker 3>Well that's a great, I mean segue, though, because I

0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.320
<v Speaker 3>do feel like just thinking about this, I don't think

0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:51.199
<v Speaker 3>mom guilt existed as much. Well, it probably existed in

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.840
<v Speaker 3>different forms in the generation before us, Like I'm sure

0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.199
<v Speaker 3>that to some extent, any mom who worked outside the

0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.160
<v Speaker 3>home felt more like an outlier. I might have felt

0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.199
<v Speaker 3>some guilt for that, even if it was needed to

0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.600
<v Speaker 3>keep the power on in the family, which is interesting.

0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.600
<v Speaker 3>But then I think today I have a friend who

0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.679
<v Speaker 3>is a single parent, and they were talking about how like, oh,

0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.680
<v Speaker 3>I don't get any time for myself, and I feel

0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:15.680
<v Speaker 3>so bad. I feel guilty if I put my child

0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:17.359
<v Speaker 3>on a tablet for a few hours, and I'm like,

0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:21.640
<v Speaker 3>why your child is like borderline genius, Like they will

0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:26.040
<v Speaker 3>be fine. There's no like objective reason why you can't

0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.399
<v Speaker 3>just disappear for a little bit of time. But we

0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.560
<v Speaker 3>have this I guess societal picture that not only are

0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.800
<v Speaker 3>we supposed to be leading a series of time blocked

0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:36.679
<v Speaker 3>craft projects every weekend day, but we're.

0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:37.320
<v Speaker 1>Supposed to like it.

0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.280
<v Speaker 3>I guess guilt is actually really what drives a lot

0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.479
<v Speaker 3>of that behavior. And I didn't really think about it

0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:46.680
<v Speaker 3>that way until your stuff.

0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:49.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, I think that guilt is a way for

0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.040
<v Speaker 1>us to have a sense right. It tells us, Okay,

0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.679
<v Speaker 1>I just need to be better or do more. I

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:55.879
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't give the tablet, I should make some plan for

0:20:55.960 --> 0:20:58.680
<v Speaker 1>my child that's educational. But I think what it does

0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.440
<v Speaker 1>is it steps in when we do feel a lack

0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.199
<v Speaker 1>of control. And I think in modern society there's this

0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.560
<v Speaker 1>constant feeling of uncertainty and lacking control that we can't

0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:12.600
<v Speaker 1>control truly the health and wellness and happiness of our children.

0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.640
<v Speaker 1>We can try our absolute best, but I think guilt

0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.320
<v Speaker 1>comes up because each of these they seem so fraught.

0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:20.919
<v Speaker 1>If my kid has a tablet. Maybe that means that

0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:23.600
<v Speaker 1>they will not be optimally et cetera, etc. So it's

0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.200
<v Speaker 1>our way of controlling a situation where we don't really

0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.919
<v Speaker 1>have control, and so guilt becomes the way to do that.

0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.399
<v Speaker 1>And it would be fine if guilt didn't feel so

0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:35.680
<v Speaker 1>awful and didn't drive us to make decisions that are

0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.960
<v Speaker 1>bad for us and cause us to neglect ourselves. But

0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 1>it does, but it does.

0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.359
<v Speaker 3>Can you talk more about these four furies that you

0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.120
<v Speaker 3>talk about in your book? And I think we mentioned caretaking,

0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:51.200
<v Speaker 3>but there's a few others, the perfectionism, the hyper accountability,

0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:52.720
<v Speaker 3>and trying to have it all. Can you talk about

0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:53.160
<v Speaker 3>all of those?

0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:55.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was important for me to give these categories

0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:58.720
<v Speaker 1>because I wanted women, ideally, when they're talking to each other,

0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:01.880
<v Speaker 1>to be able to point out how they all are

0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.840
<v Speaker 1>having these kinds of experiences, that this isn't just something

0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.800
<v Speaker 1>we're coming up with ourselves. This is the water we're

0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.400
<v Speaker 1>swimming in as women. So expectation areas. The furies are

0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.720
<v Speaker 1>constant care taking, and not just as a mom, but

0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:17.960
<v Speaker 1>as a daughter, as a friend, as a colleague, even

0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:19.920
<v Speaker 1>right at work, we might be at tasked with doing

0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:24.159
<v Speaker 1>this hyper accountability is this idea we are taught that

0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:29.320
<v Speaker 1>we should and we can control other people's emotions, that somehow,

0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:31.480
<v Speaker 1>if I say the right thing, they won't be upset,

0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.920
<v Speaker 1>or they won't be disappointed, or if I can make

0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.760
<v Speaker 1>this party the absolute best, they will feel loved and

0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.240
<v Speaker 1>feel happy on their birthday, when some of us just

0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:41.119
<v Speaker 1>always feel sat on our birthday.

0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:41.560
<v Speaker 3>Who knows.

0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:44.760
<v Speaker 1>So I think that hyper accountability is something that women

0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:47.840
<v Speaker 1>are really socialized to experience that I don't think men

0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.160
<v Speaker 1>carry in the same way. And part of that might

0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.280
<v Speaker 1>be adaptive in that it protects us right there might

0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:57.919
<v Speaker 1>be situations where if we anger someone, there could be

0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.800
<v Speaker 1>really dangerous situations. It's adaptive in some ways, but boy,

0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:05.520
<v Speaker 1>it's brunned far beyond that. So that hype we're accountability

0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:10.159
<v Speaker 1>seeking perfection of course with body image, of course, with

0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:13.800
<v Speaker 1>motherhood and parenting, but across everything, all these aspects of

0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:17.159
<v Speaker 1>sort of self control that we're supposed to have. What

0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:20.360
<v Speaker 1>are our moods, How do we handle having our periods

0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:23.080
<v Speaker 1>and how that makes us feel? Expressing our moods, our

0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:26.240
<v Speaker 1>appetites for food or alcohol or sex or shopping or

0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.119
<v Speaker 1>whatever it might be. We're supposed to demonstrate sort of

0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:33.120
<v Speaker 1>perfect self control and kind of have it all balanced right,

0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:36.600
<v Speaker 1>that we can have a wonderful career but still be

0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:40.199
<v Speaker 1>able to maintain our emotional stability and come home and

0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:43.000
<v Speaker 1>be fun and engaging for our partner. And then the

0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:46.280
<v Speaker 1>final one is just having it all, which is killing us.

0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.760
<v Speaker 1>This idea that we, yes, we can do many different things,

0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:52.560
<v Speaker 1>and women are capable, and women have more opportunities now

0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:55.760
<v Speaker 1>than we have ever had, but with that has not

0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:58.880
<v Speaker 1>come a change in our expectations of ourselves or others

0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:01.960
<v Speaker 1>of us. Like my mom stayed at home with us,

0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:04.960
<v Speaker 1>my dad was a physician. But I carry both of

0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:08.080
<v Speaker 1>those sets of expectations. I think I'm supposed to do

0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:11.040
<v Speaker 1>both of those things right unless I really work on it.

0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:14.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm supposed to be a doctor to everyone and a

0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.879
<v Speaker 1>mother who's always available and makes so many dinners. I can't.

0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:20.320
<v Speaker 1>I can't do that right. We're not super human. So

0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:22.840
<v Speaker 1>those are the four areas that I really hear women

0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.000
<v Speaker 1>struggling with, and I know I personally have every single

0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:27.720
<v Speaker 1>one of those that I feel regularly.

0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:31.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and listeners of this podcast know that we love

0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:33.840
<v Speaker 3>to come back the myth of doing it all ourselves

0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:35.840
<v Speaker 3>or having it all like. We love talking about work

0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:38.680
<v Speaker 3>and life and enjoying both. And I've talked many times

0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.080
<v Speaker 3>about how I've continued to have full time. I'm a

0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:43.240
<v Speaker 3>physician as well. I do the podcasting two days a week,

0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:45.800
<v Speaker 3>but I practice three days a week, and I don't

0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:48.199
<v Speaker 3>really cook or do much laundry because we have to

0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:50.920
<v Speaker 3>make choices. And actually that's an area where I don't

0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:52.960
<v Speaker 3>have any guilt, which is good. But maybe some people

0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 3>even would have guilt there. I don't know. It probably

0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:57.120
<v Speaker 3>depends on how you grew up and what you rationalize.

0:24:57.160 --> 0:24:59.920
<v Speaker 3>But it's so interesting. We're going to take another quick break,

0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:01.760
<v Speaker 3>and then I'm going to get some tips on since

0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:05.040
<v Speaker 3>we've now talked about how tough this is, how can

0:25:05.040 --> 0:25:19.800
<v Speaker 3>we fight some of it? We'll be right back. All right,

0:25:19.880 --> 0:25:23.240
<v Speaker 3>we're back, And I think everyone listening now knows exactly

0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:26.240
<v Speaker 3>what doctor Reid means when she's talking about guilt, and

0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:28.120
<v Speaker 3>probably many of you, like me, have thought of your

0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:30.280
<v Speaker 3>own places in your life where you would love to

0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:33.359
<v Speaker 3>have less of it. So your book has a lot

0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:36.359
<v Speaker 3>of practical tips for working on this. Can you share

0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:37.960
<v Speaker 3>a few of those with our listeners?

0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:40.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, there's a whole process I call it speak, which

0:25:40.640 --> 0:25:44.720
<v Speaker 1>is about learning how to pay attention to your own thoughts, feelings.

0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:46.760
<v Speaker 1>As you said, like you don't feel guilty about the

0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:49.040
<v Speaker 1>laundry the cooking piece. That's not a trigger for you,

0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:51.840
<v Speaker 1>and that's great. It might be for someone else, And

0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:54.360
<v Speaker 1>that's why it's so important for us to know our

0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:57.080
<v Speaker 1>own unique triggers to pay attention to when guilt is

0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:00.600
<v Speaker 1>coming up. What are the environments where it's are common,

0:26:01.200 --> 0:26:03.639
<v Speaker 1>and then what are specific areas. For example, some of

0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:05.480
<v Speaker 1>the areas that I really talk about in the tips

0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:08.600
<v Speaker 1>in a book are how to manage disappointment and allow

0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:12.520
<v Speaker 1>disappointment in other people, and even that there might be

0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:14.920
<v Speaker 1>certain roles in your life where it is really really

0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:18.440
<v Speaker 1>hard to imagine causing disappointment. I mean, we as physicians

0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.880
<v Speaker 1>are very much socialized to never do that right because

0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:24.760
<v Speaker 1>it could really be career affecting and affect patient satisfaction

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:29.719
<v Speaker 1>scores and your practice numbers. So it's learning how to

0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:32.199
<v Speaker 1>allow disappointment, which you and I both know is a

0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:35.480
<v Speaker 1>very human emotion, a common emotion, and one that we

0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:39.600
<v Speaker 1>can all handle. It's not deadly, it's not dangerous in

0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:43.159
<v Speaker 1>great majority of situations. But when we frantically try to

0:26:43.160 --> 0:26:46.520
<v Speaker 1>prevent it or fix it right away. We're signaling to

0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:49.760
<v Speaker 1>those other people, often our kids, that is dangerous. I

0:26:49.800 --> 0:26:51.359
<v Speaker 1>don't want you to feel disappointed, like I'm sorry you

0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:53.920
<v Speaker 1>can't go to our friend's house, so let's go get

0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:57.000
<v Speaker 1>ice cream, Like let's immediately try and fix that. So

0:26:57.119 --> 0:27:01.119
<v Speaker 1>allowing disappointment is a really important one. Learning how to

0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:03.879
<v Speaker 1>set reasonable boundaries. You hear a lot about boundaries, and

0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:07.800
<v Speaker 1>I do like to frame them as sort of helpful,

0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:12.200
<v Speaker 1>supportive scaffolding to help bring you closer to other people.

0:27:12.320 --> 0:27:14.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't see them as a wall between I see

0:27:14.320 --> 0:27:16.600
<v Speaker 1>them as sort of these are kind of the rules

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:20.160
<v Speaker 1>of engagement, so to speak, in how we can connect.

0:27:20.400 --> 0:27:22.360
<v Speaker 1>And I know you're not going to ask much more

0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:23.879
<v Speaker 1>of me than I can give and then make me

0:27:23.920 --> 0:27:28.520
<v Speaker 1>feel awful. Really learning those boundaries and being consistent about them,

0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:31.119
<v Speaker 1>which is hard. It might be hard in particular situations.

0:27:31.160 --> 0:27:33.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm really boundaried at work, and then I get home,

0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:36.040
<v Speaker 1>my parents call me and I'm immediately running over to

0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:38.080
<v Speaker 1>help them with something because I don't want to disappoint them,

0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:40.959
<v Speaker 1>because that means I'm a terrible and ungrateful daughter. Right

0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:44.919
<v Speaker 1>These stories that we tell ourselves. So that's an important one,

0:27:45.040 --> 0:27:47.800
<v Speaker 1>and learning how to delegate. It's funny because I think

0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 1>the Gruth Bader Ginsburg talked about in a marriage, and

0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:52.440
<v Speaker 1>it's helpful to be a little bit deaf sometimes to

0:27:52.480 --> 0:27:55.520
<v Speaker 1>not hear the tone of your partner like their response.

0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:58.200
<v Speaker 1>And I think about that a lot as a wife

0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:00.840
<v Speaker 1>and as a mother. If I'm like, could you help me?

0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:02.840
<v Speaker 1>Could you unstack the dishwasher, and you get the like,

0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:08.199
<v Speaker 1>oh my gosh, okay, great, I hear the word, I

0:28:08.200 --> 0:28:10.760
<v Speaker 1>don't hear the tone right, So that the idea of

0:28:10.880 --> 0:28:13.399
<v Speaker 1>learning how to delegate is really important too. I just

0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:16.480
<v Speaker 1>know that people get to have feelings about that, whether

0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:20.280
<v Speaker 1>it's disappointment, frustration. I don't have to fix it for them.

0:28:20.840 --> 0:28:24.240
<v Speaker 3>Ooh, I love that, and that could be appropriate in

0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:26.280
<v Speaker 3>multiple spheres of life, I can imagine.

0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:27.560
<v Speaker 1>Well.

0:28:27.720 --> 0:28:30.760
<v Speaker 3>I wanted to also make a note to ask you

0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:33.119
<v Speaker 3>a little bit about seeking out mental health because I

0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:37.040
<v Speaker 3>read that's also something you're incredibly passionate about. And I

0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:39.160
<v Speaker 3>know that the times that I have reached out to

0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:42.480
<v Speaker 3>get professional assistance with mental health issues, I have never

0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:45.280
<v Speaker 3>regretted it, And every single time I'm like, why did

0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:47.320
<v Speaker 3>I not do that sooner, And the reason is because

0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:49.800
<v Speaker 3>it's hard, and there's a lot of stigma, and there's

0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:51.240
<v Speaker 3>a lot of Oh, I should be able to deal

0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 3>with this myself. So what tips do you have for

0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 3>listeners that are maybe this conversation triggered something like maybe

0:28:57.160 --> 0:28:59.000
<v Speaker 3>they're like, you know what, I have a lot of

0:28:59.000 --> 0:29:01.920
<v Speaker 3>things I need to process. What are your tips births

0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:04.720
<v Speaker 3>helping somebody else to seek help that they need, or

0:29:04.800 --> 0:29:05.680
<v Speaker 3>encouragement on.

0:29:05.640 --> 0:29:08.920
<v Speaker 1>That right, well, even just the guilt up front, right

0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:12.480
<v Speaker 1>the idea that I should be able to X, Y

0:29:12.600 --> 0:29:14.680
<v Speaker 1>or z. And I think we think about things differently

0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 1>in the mental health sphere than we do in the

0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:19.040
<v Speaker 1>physical home health sphere, even though they're the same thing.

0:29:19.120 --> 0:29:22.800
<v Speaker 1>Let's be honest. So I think one is in recognizing

0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:26.080
<v Speaker 1>that the goal of mental health treatment is not to

0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:28.719
<v Speaker 1>sort of change who you are. I think people worry

0:29:28.720 --> 0:29:30.800
<v Speaker 1>that there's something about like I'm going to go in

0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:32.960
<v Speaker 1>and they're just going to change what I'm who I am.

0:29:33.560 --> 0:29:37.959
<v Speaker 1>It's to actually remove the layers, like excavating, like cleaning

0:29:38.240 --> 0:29:41.000
<v Speaker 1>a painting, It gets covered in layers. If there's layers

0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:46.600
<v Speaker 1>of anxiety or depression or addiction, that's interfering with you

0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:49.880
<v Speaker 1>being your real self. So our job as therapists, as

0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:54.080
<v Speaker 1>a psychiatrists, whether it's with the medication or with psychotherapy,

0:29:54.280 --> 0:29:57.160
<v Speaker 1>is to try and remove those layers that are causing

0:29:57.360 --> 0:30:00.560
<v Speaker 1>the suffering. Right, That's what I'm able to try in

0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:04.440
<v Speaker 1>my practice, and to not say I won't do medication

0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:07.280
<v Speaker 1>or I won't do therapy. That really finding someone that

0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:10.520
<v Speaker 1>you could trust to have a conversation about what is

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:12.280
<v Speaker 1>it that really could be helpful. This might be your

0:30:12.280 --> 0:30:16.680
<v Speaker 1>primary care provider, a nurse practitioner, a physician, it doesn't

0:30:16.720 --> 0:30:19.200
<v Speaker 1>have to be a psychiatrist per se, but we're going

0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:21.680
<v Speaker 1>to get started and really being able to talk through

0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:24.760
<v Speaker 1>these things and keep an open mind for the types

0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:28.840
<v Speaker 1>of treatment that might be effective. I know people who've

0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:31.600
<v Speaker 1>done beautifully on medication and other people who've really struggled

0:30:31.640 --> 0:30:34.800
<v Speaker 1>with it. Right, it's finding the right fit for you

0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:36.880
<v Speaker 1>so that you get to have the life back that

0:30:36.920 --> 0:30:37.600
<v Speaker 1>you really want.

0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:41.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and it's not always easier convenient to fit in,

0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:43.360
<v Speaker 3>but honestly, I can imagine it's one of those things

0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:47.240
<v Speaker 3>that kind of pays dividends because if you address these issues,

0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:50.520
<v Speaker 3>the whole rest of your life is going to feel

0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:53.880
<v Speaker 3>more worthwhile. And you'll honestly not that we need to

0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:56.520
<v Speaker 3>link everything back to like productivity or being there for others,

0:30:56.560 --> 0:30:58.360
<v Speaker 3>but if you don't take care of yourself, it is

0:30:58.360 --> 0:30:59.960
<v Speaker 3>hard to do other things very well.

0:31:00.680 --> 0:31:03.160
<v Speaker 1>It is. And there is such a magical thing about

0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:06.440
<v Speaker 1>seeing someone who's really been struggling coming out of that

0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:08.600
<v Speaker 1>and sort of the brightness in their eyes, the way

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:12.240
<v Speaker 1>it just changes their entire being, their posture, their speech,

0:31:12.320 --> 0:31:15.560
<v Speaker 1>their engagement, their interests. It's a beautiful thing to see.

0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:17.640
<v Speaker 1>And I think if more people could be on my

0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:20.680
<v Speaker 1>end and see that, there would be more people seeking

0:31:20.720 --> 0:31:24.320
<v Speaker 1>the kind of treatment relief that we can provide. Awesome.

0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:27.080
<v Speaker 3>Well, I know you listen to a few episodes of

0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:29.960
<v Speaker 3>this podcast, so you might know or not that we

0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:32.440
<v Speaker 3>do a love of the Week segment every week where

0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:36.120
<v Speaker 3>you just name something that you are happy or excited

0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:39.600
<v Speaker 3>about in a given week, and it can be a

0:31:39.640 --> 0:31:42.440
<v Speaker 3>piece of nature, something that happened, a song you heard,

0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:44.800
<v Speaker 3>a stationary item that happens a lot because I like,

0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:46.400
<v Speaker 3>look around my desk and I'm like, oh, I love

0:31:46.400 --> 0:31:48.880
<v Speaker 3>these pens or whatever. But I will go first to

0:31:48.920 --> 0:31:51.840
<v Speaker 3>give you a minute to think through it. I love

0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:54.640
<v Speaker 3>that I'm almost done with my invisile line treatment. So

0:31:54.920 --> 0:31:57.520
<v Speaker 3>I started in visile line like almost a year and

0:31:57.560 --> 0:32:00.760
<v Speaker 3>a half ago, and you can see my teeth are

0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:02.800
<v Speaker 3>really straight now. I had braces as a kid. But

0:32:03.040 --> 0:32:04.560
<v Speaker 3>I'm just really glad I did it. I did it

0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:06.720
<v Speaker 3>at like a dumb time, like so much other stuff

0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:08.160
<v Speaker 3>was going on in my life. But I figured, you

0:32:08.240 --> 0:32:10.320
<v Speaker 3>know what, this can't be that bad. I ended up

0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:12.400
<v Speaker 3>not minding it at all. I know some people really

0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:14.200
<v Speaker 3>don't like it. The hardest part is it I always

0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:15.720
<v Speaker 3>have to take it out to podcast because I don't

0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:19.680
<v Speaker 3>think my s's are perfectly crisp. But thankfully I don't

0:32:19.680 --> 0:32:21.920
<v Speaker 3>spend like ten hours a day podcasting, so it all

0:32:21.920 --> 0:32:23.880
<v Speaker 3>worked out. So that is my love of the week.

0:32:24.320 --> 0:32:26.920
<v Speaker 1>How about you. That's great. I both of my boys

0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:29.520
<v Speaker 1>are having braces, and so I know that some of

0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:33.360
<v Speaker 1>the challenges there. We were away last week and we

0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:37.120
<v Speaker 1>came back and I refilled my bird feeders with like

0:32:37.200 --> 0:32:39.960
<v Speaker 1>we love the sunflower seeds, and they all came back.

0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:42.280
<v Speaker 1>I can look out my window now and see them,

0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:44.120
<v Speaker 1>and for a moment they weren't here, and I was like,

0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:46.400
<v Speaker 1>oh my gosh, they've given up on me. But they've

0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:49.400
<v Speaker 1>all come back and they're just such a beautiful, happy

0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:51.400
<v Speaker 1>sight that it just helps me to take a moment

0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:54.600
<v Speaker 1>and look out there when I'm feeling stressed or overwhelmed.

0:32:55.000 --> 0:32:56.480
<v Speaker 1>So that would be my love of the week.

0:32:57.400 --> 0:32:59.760
<v Speaker 3>I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on.

0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:02.280
<v Speaker 3>Can you remind listeners where they can find you and

0:33:02.360 --> 0:33:03.600
<v Speaker 3>the full name of your book.

0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:06.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So the book is Guilt Free Reclaiming your Life

0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:10.520
<v Speaker 1>from Unreasonable Expectations. It's available broadly. My favorite is probably

0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:14.520
<v Speaker 1>bookshop dot org because that supports local independent booksellers. And

0:33:14.560 --> 0:33:16.800
<v Speaker 1>then I have a podcast and a substack called a

0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Mind of her Own, so you can find me there

0:33:18.880 --> 0:33:21.320
<v Speaker 1>or my website JENNIFERREIDMD dot com.

0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:24.440
<v Speaker 3>Awesome, thank you so much for coming on, Thank you

0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:25.040
<v Speaker 3>for having me.

0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:28.080
<v Speaker 2>All right, well we are back. That was a great

0:33:28.080 --> 0:33:31.800
<v Speaker 2>interview Sarah did with doctor Jennifer Reid talking about guilt,

0:33:31.920 --> 0:33:35.280
<v Speaker 2>how people feel about guilt, and whether we should at all.

0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:38.200
<v Speaker 2>So this week's question comes from a listener who says,

0:33:38.200 --> 0:33:40.560
<v Speaker 2>how do you handle it if your kids are up

0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:42.960
<v Speaker 2>before you want to be. I'm sure that's never happened

0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:45.800
<v Speaker 2>in anyone's household. How old did they have to be

0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:48.960
<v Speaker 2>before you could generally sleep until you wanted.

0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:51.280
<v Speaker 1>All right, Sarah, how about you?

0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:54.280
<v Speaker 3>My two older kids, like I could sleep till noon

0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:57.080
<v Speaker 3>and they probably would not bother me like a they

0:33:57.120 --> 0:34:00.040
<v Speaker 3>sleep in because like the hormonal thing is real and be,

0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:03.040
<v Speaker 3>they would just not feel like they needed to wake

0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:06.800
<v Speaker 3>me up. I don't think Jennevieve is eight, and on

0:34:06.840 --> 0:34:08.640
<v Speaker 3>the rare occasion that I'm like I just want to

0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:11.000
<v Speaker 3>sleep in, she does sometimes tiptoe in there at like

0:34:11.040 --> 0:34:13.360
<v Speaker 3>seven thirty and it's like I'm gonna make breakfast and

0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:15.040
<v Speaker 3>it's like, okay, thanks for telling.

0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Me, thanks for the update.

0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:19.600
<v Speaker 3>So but obviously that is a far cry from when

0:34:19.600 --> 0:34:22.400
<v Speaker 3>the kids were younger and they weren't just telling me

0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:24.520
<v Speaker 3>that they were going to go get a yogurt or something.

0:34:24.520 --> 0:34:26.160
<v Speaker 3>It was like I have to get up, I have

0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:28.239
<v Speaker 3>to breastfeed, I have to get their stuff, I have

0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:31.000
<v Speaker 3>to make sure they don't kill each other like et cetera.

0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:34.120
<v Speaker 3>So I mean, I feel like the age how old

0:34:34.120 --> 0:34:38.279
<v Speaker 3>did they have to be? Six to seven maybe, and

0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:40.800
<v Speaker 3>then I think it's six to seven was the magical

0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:43.400
<v Speaker 3>age where like if I really really wanted to sleep in,

0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:47.760
<v Speaker 3>I could preemptively say I left a cereal bar out

0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.440
<v Speaker 3>and you're allowed to watch cartoons until I wake up

0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:53.439
<v Speaker 3>on Netflix or whatever, and then I could probably sleep

0:34:53.600 --> 0:34:56.560
<v Speaker 3>till the whole day, the whole day if you want.

0:34:56.760 --> 0:34:59.120
<v Speaker 2>Although the problem is, of course, when your kids start

0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:02.480
<v Speaker 2>sleeping in as when you stop right like many of

0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:05.240
<v Speaker 2>us lack the ability to sleep in all that long.

0:35:05.480 --> 0:35:07.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how late would you actually sleep in? No,

0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:11.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about like eight thirty, but I mean that's late.

0:35:12.760 --> 0:35:14.600
<v Speaker 2>I think i'd have a caffeine headache by about eight

0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:17.400
<v Speaker 2>thirty nine in the morning if I hadn't had my

0:35:17.440 --> 0:35:20.040
<v Speaker 2>cup of coffee by nine am, I'm pretty sure that

0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:22.279
<v Speaker 2>it would not be a good That's what would wake

0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:25.440
<v Speaker 2>me up, Like I would need my meds.

0:35:25.960 --> 0:35:27.880
<v Speaker 3>Your lack of coffee would wake you up. Well, do

0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:29.719
<v Speaker 3>you feel like you're at a point where you can

0:35:29.760 --> 0:35:31.520
<v Speaker 3>sleep as long as you would like?

0:35:32.480 --> 0:35:32.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:35:32.800 --> 0:35:35.759
<v Speaker 2>I mean for the most part, yes, because so the

0:35:35.800 --> 0:35:39.560
<v Speaker 2>older kids, like the three teenagers, Yes, we'll sleep sort

0:35:39.560 --> 0:35:43.279
<v Speaker 2>of eternally if allowed to. Alex is something of an

0:35:43.320 --> 0:35:45.840
<v Speaker 2>early bird. He will get up, but he often just

0:35:45.880 --> 0:35:48.000
<v Speaker 2>gets up and entertains himself, like he'll go grab his

0:35:48.040 --> 0:35:50.680
<v Speaker 2>phone out of the room quietly and then we'll go

0:35:50.920 --> 0:35:53.800
<v Speaker 2>watch it to go play on the computer or whatever.

0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:57.359
<v Speaker 2>He's not going to come seek somebody else out. If

0:35:57.360 --> 0:36:02.040
<v Speaker 2>he is up, Henry sometimes will come find an adult,

0:36:02.640 --> 0:36:05.640
<v Speaker 2>but sometimes he will just decide to get up on

0:36:05.680 --> 0:36:09.480
<v Speaker 2>his own and go downstairs and get my laptop out

0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:13.520
<v Speaker 2>of my office. He knows how to start it up,

0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:19.080
<v Speaker 2>and we'll get himself watching videos on it. Probably he

0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:21.000
<v Speaker 2>should be a bit more supervised, but on the other hand,

0:36:21.000 --> 0:36:22.759
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of nice not to have to get up

0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:26.000
<v Speaker 2>and deal with it. So it won't last forever because

0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:27.839
<v Speaker 2>eventually he still hasn't got to the point where he'll

0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:31.080
<v Speaker 2>get his own food. So when he's hungry, he will

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:33.520
<v Speaker 2>come find an adult, but that wouldn't happen necessarily till

0:36:34.080 --> 0:36:37.880
<v Speaker 2>eight am or later. So yeah, I mean it's I

0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:41.360
<v Speaker 2>would say age six is about when you can start

0:36:41.840 --> 0:36:43.960
<v Speaker 2>being more certain that your sleep is going to be

0:36:44.000 --> 0:36:46.440
<v Speaker 2>more determined by you than by other people.

0:36:47.200 --> 0:36:49.360
<v Speaker 3>There you go. If you're listening to this and you're pregnant,

0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:51.160
<v Speaker 3>you only have to wait six years. If you're only

0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:54.160
<v Speaker 3>happy one child. Yeah, if you're having five, you're gonna

0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:55.719
<v Speaker 3>have to wait a little longer. But that's on you,

0:36:56.960 --> 0:36:59.080
<v Speaker 3>all right. Well, this has been best of both worlds.

0:36:59.280 --> 0:37:02.200
<v Speaker 3>Sarah has been interviewing doctor Jennifer Reid. We will be

0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:04.480
<v Speaker 3>back next week with more on Waking Worth and life

0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 3>fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah

0:37:09.719 --> 0:37:13.560
<v Speaker 3>at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox

0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:15.399
<v Speaker 3>on Instagram.

0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:19.040
<v Speaker 2>And you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:22.400
<v Speaker 2>This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please

0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:25.040
<v Speaker 2>join us next time for more on making work and

0:37:25.160 --> 0:37:26.240
<v Speaker 2>life work together.