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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Steph.

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Speaker 1: I've never told your protection, but I heeart radio. I

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Speaker 1: think I know the answer to this, but I'm going

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Speaker 1: to ask it anyway. Samantha, what are your thoughts on

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Speaker 1: p d A. Public displays of affection is imcordant to

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Speaker 1: how much p d A holding hands, being cute, kisses

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Speaker 1: here and they're cool everything else. I'm like, that's not

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Speaker 1: meant for me to see. I'm going to turn and

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Speaker 1: like yourself, do you do you engage rarely? Rarely, Like

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Speaker 1: if we're somewhere that we've been there for a while,

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Speaker 1: Like let's say we're at a show, or we're hanging

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Speaker 1: out and it's dinner and then we're having conversation and

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Speaker 1: there's like, you know, we're at a restaurant, you may

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Speaker 1: see me lean in on my partner or rub his back.

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Speaker 1: That's about it. Yeah, Yeah, I'm about the same, I

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Speaker 1: I think because I didn't realize that I was ACE

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Speaker 1: at the time, Like any kind of physical interaction scared me.

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Speaker 1: So it was a big deal. And I can like

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Speaker 1: literally remember asking my partner at the time, like can

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Speaker 1: I hold your hand and being scared or like one

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Speaker 1: time I put my hand in his back pocket and

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Speaker 1: that memories burned in my head because the whole time

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Speaker 1: I was like, what have I done? Um? So it

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Speaker 1: was something that I I did and sometimes enjoyed, but

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Speaker 1: most of the time it was just like surrounded in fear.

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Speaker 1: I do I do remember one time we kissed. I'm

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Speaker 1: a terrible person. Uh So there's this big race that's

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Speaker 1: coming up in smith and I've talked about it in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: the Peach Tree Road Race. Um, he did it, but

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Speaker 1: he was like way back and like double and I

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Speaker 1: was in c and I was like, no, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to see and you can be a w but I'm

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Speaker 1: not running because I'm that kind of person. The heat

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Speaker 1: is a big deal, though. You want to run that

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Speaker 1: race quickly reason you try to qualify early more. Did

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Speaker 1: you lie? That's right, Georgia. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I get you because I think I did the same

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Speaker 1: thing with my friends. Will be like I'll meet you

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Speaker 1: at the end. Good good luck to you. There's always

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Speaker 1: the concern that'll catch up with you, though, and then

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Speaker 1: you really feel like, but we kissed before we parted.

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Speaker 1: Ways that the kind of opening gate and the photographers

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Speaker 1: snapped a photo and like we're all these people around

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Speaker 1: and they're like, oh that was quit. Yeah. I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I'll never pd A good. I didn't

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Speaker 1: need an audience. Sorry, yeah, that's just also I don't

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Speaker 1: like to be seen, so that's too too sane. M

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Speaker 1: h yeah, uh yeah, I want to bring this back.

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Speaker 1: I'm not entirely sure when this one's going to publish it.

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Speaker 1: I think it might actually be early July from the

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Speaker 1: Peachtre road Race characters, but it's kind of the tail

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Speaker 1: and of pride, I think. Um, and I just uh,

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Speaker 1: this episode kind of talks about like pd A within

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Speaker 1: the queer community and how that can look and how

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Speaker 1: it can kind of be scary depending on where you are.

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Speaker 1: So I just thought it was interesting. Someday we should

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Speaker 1: talk about more. So please enjoy this classic episode. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. Caroline. Happy Valentine's Day whatever, I know, right,

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Speaker 1: it's America's least favorite holiday. Welcome and yet our favorite one.

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Speaker 1: Somehow not to use to manipulate other people. Oh you

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Speaker 1: mean our like a active hour, like and by people

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Speaker 1: you mean people you're dating. I don't want anything. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's It's true. It is one of the most confusing

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Speaker 1: days of the year, I'd say. And um, I went

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Speaker 1: onto our Facebook page. If you're listening right now and

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Speaker 1: you haven't gone to our Facebook page to like us,

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Speaker 1: because it's Valentine's Day, you should do with be our

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Speaker 1: Valentine please. Um. I went on there to ask listeners, Hey,

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Speaker 1: do you want a Valentine's Day episode? Come on? Like,

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Speaker 1: this is sort of our wheelhouse. We talk about dating

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Speaker 1: and love and kissy stuff all the time. What would

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Speaker 1: you like to hear about? And half of the responses

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Speaker 1: were about how Valentine's is the worst, about how Valentine's

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Speaker 1: is a fake, consumer driven holiday, and I was like, y'all, y'all, y'all,

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Speaker 1: come on now, Yeah, it's you know, it is what

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Speaker 1: it is. So I think that folks are gonna like

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Speaker 1: this episode. It though, yeah, not particularly lovey dovey in

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Speaker 1: a direct way, right, but it's got a twist in it.

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Speaker 1: And the twist is that in so many of the

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Speaker 1: topics that we talk about, we we in things with

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Speaker 1: like well and then we tried to talk about, you know,

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Speaker 1: find information on how this applied to the LGBT community,

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Speaker 1: but you know what, research had nothing to say about it.

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Speaker 1: Guess what, It's not the case this time. So let's

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Speaker 1: get going. Let's let's give our public display of affection

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Speaker 1: to our LGBT listeners. Let's do it unless that would

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Speaker 1: make them uncomfortable, in which case I'll just shake your hands,

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Speaker 1: that's fine. Or maybe you'll give them a kiss on

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Speaker 1: the cheek. Kristen, Yes, a public social kiss. Is there

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Speaker 1: anything more confusing? It is very confusing. No. I walked up,

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Speaker 1: I walked my parents elderly neighbor home not too long ago,

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Speaker 1: and I went for the hug and she went for

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Speaker 1: the cheek kiss. And then she confused me further by

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Speaker 1: going for the double cheek kiss, to the point where

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Speaker 1: I said, can we do that again again? You wanted

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Speaker 1: to repeat, Well, yeah, she's this adorable Greek lady. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, come on, I've never since I was

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Speaker 1: a baby. I was like, can we just can we

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Speaker 1: fix this? She's like, you know, dart, like we always

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Speaker 1: do it on post cheeks. Oh, and then it was fine.

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Speaker 1: So now that have you taken up Greek double cheek kissing. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: not that you don't know what is on people's faces.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, that's what I was I was worth thinking

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Speaker 1: about the awkwardness. Well, yeah, that's actually my germ fobio

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Speaker 1: is just a cover from my fear of awkward situations. Um. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there was a recent article in the New York Times

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Speaker 1: about the confusing situation of the public social kiss, which

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Speaker 1: has become I feel like this is kind of fueled

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Speaker 1: by reality television, especially the Real Housewives franchise, because they're always,

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Speaker 1: you know, doing the kiss kiss when they greet each other,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like it's kind of like it's not

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Speaker 1: something that I encounter. But maybe it's because I'm not

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Speaker 1: fancy enough in my day today. Um So, it's not

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Speaker 1: common in American culture to do the social kiss. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's more of a European thing, but I think it

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Speaker 1: is becoming a little bit more common. Yeah, but there

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Speaker 1: are they're actually rules apparently that govern the public social kiss,

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Speaker 1: which I wish there were rules for actual p d

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Speaker 1: A because I don't consider the social kiss p d

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Speaker 1: A or gross. It's just awkward. It's just like, why

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Speaker 1: are you kissing my face? I don't know you well,

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Speaker 1: it can it can be awkward. Um. This is This

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Speaker 1: article was written by Henry Alford, who is the author

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Speaker 1: of a Modern Manners book and um. He talked to

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Speaker 1: a British etiquette consultant, William Hansen, who like points to

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Speaker 1: the celebrity culture and sort of the false intimacy and

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Speaker 1: the kiss kiss that now confuses the social kiss. And

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Speaker 1: he says that the proper procedure for a social kiss,

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Speaker 1: if it's a guy and a gal, is that the

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Speaker 1: woman sets the terms. If she wants her cheek, she

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Speaker 1: profers her cheek. If not, she pro for sir hand.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start like proffering my hand for for

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Speaker 1: hand kisses, do wear a giant cocktail ring so that

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Speaker 1: people are forced to kiss it like for the pope

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Speaker 1: or something, or like a ring pop perfect But you

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Speaker 1: don't well, you don't anybody to linger. Yeah, And then

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Speaker 1: he says that if it's a woman woman woman interaction.

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Speaker 1: I just said woman three times, but I mean two women,

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Speaker 1: the senior woman sets the terms. So in my case,

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Speaker 1: the the elderly adorable Greek woman was going in for

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Speaker 1: the double cheek kiss, and I was lost as an

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Speaker 1: ignorant American, But what if you're really close in age.

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Speaker 1: See that's why I'm just saying like it's just because

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Speaker 1: then it's an insult because if you wait, you're you're

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Speaker 1: insinuating that you think they're older. Yeah, oh man, that

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Speaker 1: it's confusing. Um. But but the funny thing is when um,

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Speaker 1: I think it was William Hanson that the British etiquett

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Speaker 1: consultant was saying that the like frontal hugs that Americans

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Speaker 1: might think are way less uncomfortable than social kissing act

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Speaker 1: really quite the opposite, because that is full on body

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Speaker 1: contact and it signals even more intimacy. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't like hugging strangers either. What happened to a handshake? People?

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Speaker 1: Or do the Obama fist bump or an elbow bump? Yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: we should write an etiquette book. Um so yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: you said, though, Caroline, the public social kiss not so

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Speaker 1: much of a p D A as in in the

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Speaker 1: way that we would think of it, especially Roam Valentine's Day. Right,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about like PDA in terms of smooching, smooching

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Speaker 1: your honey bun in public. I can't take it. I

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Speaker 1: hate p D I don't want to be a part

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Speaker 1: of the pd A beyond like hand holding, but I

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Speaker 1: also don't want to watch the p d A. I

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Speaker 1: was at a restaurant the other night and this couple

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Speaker 1: next to my friend and me were just like all

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Speaker 1: over each other. If let's say you have a gentleman friend,

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Speaker 1: You're very friendly, you like him, you love him. He

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Speaker 1: wants to kiss you fully on the mouth in public,

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Speaker 1: do you what do you do? Uh? Peck? That would

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Speaker 1: be a push push You put your hand on his

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Speaker 1: chest and then I throw a drink in his face.

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Speaker 1: You called him a cad and stalk away. Um, well,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned girling going to the restaurant and being picked

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Speaker 1: out by the kissy face. I gotta stop saying kissy

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Speaker 1: face by the amorous couple. Well a B T A

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Speaker 1: B T. Well. ABC Prime Time decided to kind of

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Speaker 1: do that in mass in two thousand six. They hired

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Speaker 1: some actors to go and go around to restaurants and

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Speaker 1: pretend to be super affectionate couples be making out all

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Speaker 1: over each other. And the funny thing was a lot

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Speaker 1: of people were kind of fine with it. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: they talked about some older couples who were in the restaurant.

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Speaker 1: You know who thought like, oh sweet young love and uh.

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Speaker 1: Carrie Keating, who's a psychology professor at Colgate University, actually

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Speaker 1: says she defends p d A too to a point.

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Speaker 1: She says that it's sometimes can have a positive effect

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Speaker 1: on the observers. Have you ever been watching a movie, Kristen,

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Speaker 1: and that you've watched a movie You've never Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: hopefully our listeners will will know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been watching a movie and the two

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Speaker 1: people on screen kiss and you find yourself making the

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Speaker 1: kissy face two at the same time? Okay, weird? Maybe

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Speaker 1: I mean neither of I over um anyway, So Keating says,

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Speaker 1: the very motor behavior, the tiny muscles of the face,

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Speaker 1: the smiles, the gaze are often mimicked by observers, and

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Speaker 1: that mimicry actually feeds back to the brain of the

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Speaker 1: observer and gives you that sort of warm and fuzzy

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Speaker 1: feeling inside. I think she's giving p d A a

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Speaker 1: lot more credit than it deserves. But I think that

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Speaker 1: to a point, like seeing um unless you've just been

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Speaker 1: broken up with or you're you know, feeling bitter that day,

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Speaker 1: like seeing a young couple in love holding hands could

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Speaker 1: actually make you feel slightly better. I'm the opposite, It's

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Speaker 1: not I'm I'm more prudish when it comes to seeing

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Speaker 1: younger couples. Older couples though, holding hands, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: kissing I basically I just don't want to seek tongue,

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Speaker 1: but older couples that that warms my heart. But there,

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Speaker 1: of course, in this ABC experiment, there were some people

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Speaker 1: who did not take kindly to seeing all the p

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Speaker 1: d A and tried to intervene. And Keating goes on

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Speaker 1: to Warren that you know it, don't try to stop

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Speaker 1: p d A if you see it happening, because you

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Speaker 1: don't know what the cultural norms are. Um. And and

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Speaker 1: this comes up a lot, maybe the litmus test if

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Speaker 1: ifs if kids are around, it's always about the children,

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Speaker 1: you know, if they're children around, don't what about my retinas.

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Speaker 1: I want to protect my retina exactly. Um. But then again,

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Speaker 1: I mean you say that, you know. Keating goes on

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Speaker 1: to talk about how there's this physiological effect from witnessing PDA,

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Speaker 1: but then she also goes on to say that, well,

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Speaker 1: it kind of listen the range of emotions, so it's

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Speaker 1: a pretty non specific answer. And I and I did

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Speaker 1: dig around for some studies seeing if if there were

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Speaker 1: more whether if there was more empirical data on the

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Speaker 1: kind of response that people have to p d A.

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Speaker 1: Not a lot of stuff out there, because even the

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Speaker 1: researchers are grossed out. Probably yeah. Um. But the thing is, though,

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Speaker 1: Keating does have a point though, saying that p d

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Speaker 1: A elicits a range of emotions, but unfortunately those range

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Speaker 1: of emotions can also be very negative, depending not just

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Speaker 1: on the type of pd A that's happening, but who

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Speaker 1: is doing it. And this was something that ABC again

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Speaker 1: went back a year later to test out when they

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Speaker 1: had two gay couples go out and get all frisky

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Speaker 1: in public, and they went to Birmingham, Alabama and Verona,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey, because they also wanted to see if there's

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Speaker 1: a geographical difference. Yeah, and then both places. I think

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Speaker 1: for the most part, the attitudes were I mean, there

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Speaker 1: was a range of attitudes about it, but they none

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Speaker 1: of them were very strong. I will say that, Um,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people were concerned, just like, how will

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Speaker 1: I explain this to my children? When my small children asked,

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Speaker 1: why are those two men kissing in Alabama. However, there

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Speaker 1: was one instance where a woman called nine one one

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Speaker 1: when she saw two men kissing, and the officer responding

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Speaker 1: officers said, just don't do that in public. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: that's not okay. Um. But there there was a difference

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Speaker 1: though in how people reacted to, uh, the lesbian couple

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Speaker 1: versus the gay mail couple, because like the two women

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Speaker 1: being affectionate to each other, people for the most partably

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Speaker 1: it's sweet, but there was more negative reaction directed at

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Speaker 1: two men showing affection to each other. Right, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: an example I think of how people are not in

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Speaker 1: general super comfortable with two men expressing any affection for

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Speaker 1: each other. There was a Snickers Super Bowl commercial several

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Speaker 1: years ago, this was in two thousand seven, I believe,

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Speaker 1: where two mechanics they pulled a lady in the tramp

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Speaker 1: with the with the spaghetti thing, but they were eating

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Speaker 1: a Snickers bar. Uh, so they're biting into the same

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Speaker 1: candy bar and then recoil when their lips meat and

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Speaker 1: start trying to act really masculine. And it got a

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Speaker 1: lot of activists angry people, you know, they're like, why

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Speaker 1: are you why are you furthering this perception that two

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Speaker 1: men kissing is disgusting. Yeah, homophobia. That's a terrible punch line.

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Speaker 1: That's not funny at all. Actually, uh. Because of the

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Speaker 1: protests in response to the ads were eventually pulled. But

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Speaker 1: it was, um a good example. Not and I say good,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was a depressing example of how it's

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Speaker 1: it's the type of homophobia that we don't necessarily think about.

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Speaker 1: Like when we first started doing, you know, looking into

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Speaker 1: stuff for podcasts on public displays of affection, I just thought,

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Speaker 1: we're going to find some psychological studies, how do you feel?

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Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, this whole LGBT angle of

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Speaker 1: it opens up to where it's a completely different side

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Speaker 1: that you and I don't think about. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: two like straight women walking around, you know, and if

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Speaker 1: we we have the privilege of if we want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, kiss our dude or whatever real fast, then

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Speaker 1: no one's probably gonna bat an eyelash about it. But

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Speaker 1: it is much different we've learned, especially for men who

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Speaker 1: are in relationships with each other. Yeah. Christopher Records over

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Speaker 1: at Salon in July wrote a column about how it's

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Speaker 1: a tight rope act basically, and he talks about the

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Speaker 1: stress of having to check one's surroundings before even holding hands.

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Speaker 1: He calls it instinctive profiling, basically that he is he

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Speaker 1: feels forced to do when he goes into a public space.

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Speaker 1: And he writes that like a lot of same sex couples,

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Speaker 1: we know where to touch where not to touch, as

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Speaker 1: far as you know, going into one bar or store

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Speaker 1: or public place versus another. And he writes that safety

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Speaker 1: carries with it issues of race, age, gender, and class,

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Speaker 1: that he and his boyfriend feel safest to quote freely

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Speaker 1: act like a normal couple in places that tend to

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Speaker 1: be wider, younger, less male, more liberal, and generally more

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Speaker 1: gentrified than others. And like Kristen said, I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily like I don't like p D A,

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Speaker 1: but I also don't always have to consider where I

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Speaker 1: am if I'm expressing affection. Yeah, there's typically not a

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Speaker 1: risk of violence or harassment if you express p d A. UM,

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Speaker 1: And this was something that I mean, speaking as well

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Speaker 1: to what Christopher Records in that Salon article was talking

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Speaker 1: about in terms of where and how they feel safe. UM.

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Speaker 1: Clarence Patton, who was a spokesperson for New York City's

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Speaker 1: Gain Lesbian Anti Violence Project told The New York Times

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Speaker 1: in two thousand seven, and this was in response to

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Speaker 1: that Snicker Super Bowl commercial. He said that, um, gay

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Speaker 1: people aren't threatening if they quote play a very tightly

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Speaker 1: scripted and choreographer role in society, putting your wedding together

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Speaker 1: or what have you. It's then more once they cross

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Speaker 1: out of those things and actually begin, you know, behave

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Speaker 1: just like you and me, just like you know everyday

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Speaker 1: couples on the street, that, um, the risk increases. Now

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Speaker 1: that was in two thousand seven. Um, and hopefully, even

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Speaker 1: though it's only been you know, five six years, things

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Speaker 1: have gotten better. UM. Catherine M. Frank, who's a lesbian

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Speaker 1: Columbia University professor, also told The New York Times that

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Speaker 1: in the past five years she had observed things getting

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Speaker 1: better in terms of her girlfriend her actually getting smiles

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Speaker 1: from straight couples and uh, you know, gay allies wanting

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Speaker 1: to congratulate their love and rather than looking at askance

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Speaker 1: at them. And it's that whole you know, time marching on,

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Speaker 1: people getting used to seeing things that weren't used to

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Speaker 1: seeing before that. Jesse Burling talks about in his piece

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Speaker 1: for Scientific American in June two thousand nine. He's a

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Speaker 1: research psychologist, and he says that while the issue of

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Speaker 1: gay marriage is very important, the issue of gay people

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Speaker 1: feeling comfortable to express p d A is so important

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Speaker 1: also because it's not just like a social attitude of like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, it's I'm totally cool with gay people kissing

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Speaker 1: in public, because, as we just mentioned, you know, people

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Speaker 1: are not necessarily as comfortable with that as they say

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Speaker 1: they are. UM. He's saying that it is so important

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Speaker 1: to change negative attitudes towards gay people, and that begins

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Speaker 1: with exposing people out in the world to more regular

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Speaker 1: same sex romantic behavior. Yeah, and bearing is gay as well.

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Speaker 1: And he started off that Scientific American article talking about

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Speaker 1: being abroad with his boyfriend and kind of feeling, you know,

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Speaker 1: negotiating the same the spaces public spaces in the same

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Speaker 1: way that Christopher Records was talking about over at Salon

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Speaker 1: of you know, testing the waters of okay, is it

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Speaker 1: is it? Are we getting stairs? If I hold your hand,

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Speaker 1: is it gonna be okay? If I touch your leg?

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Speaker 1: Just basic things like that, And then he goes into

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Speaker 1: talking about UM discussed sensitivity and intuitive disapproval disapproval UM

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Speaker 1: and basically kind of how researchers have tried to figure

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Speaker 1: out the ways that we might be subconsciously repulsed by things.

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Speaker 1: So this study that we're talking about and that bearing

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Speaker 1: mentions in his article was sort of to to test

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Speaker 1: people's attitudes toward gay p d A. And the first

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Speaker 1: part of the study was based on previous research that

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Speaker 1: people are more likely to describe a behavior as intentional

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Speaker 1: when they see it as morally wrong, and that is

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Speaker 1: known as the Nobe effect that was named for Yale

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Speaker 1: philosopher Joshua Nobe. Yeah, And in that philosopher dudes explanation, um,

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Speaker 1: it was basically the idea of okay, so you have

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Speaker 1: a CEO of a company and the company slash CEO

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Speaker 1: takes an action that affects the environment, And basically people

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Speaker 1: assumed that if the action had the side effect of

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Speaker 1: something positive for the environment, that it was unintentional. But

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Speaker 1: if the action that the company took had a negative

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Speaker 1: effect on the environment, people in the study interpreted that

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Speaker 1: as intentional. So the negative, the disgusting was viewed as intentional,

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Speaker 1: the morally right, the positive, the yea, you help the

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Speaker 1: environment was viewed as unintentional. So in this case with

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Speaker 1: the Harvard study that was published in two thousand nine.

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Speaker 1: What they did to sort of remodel that Nobe effect

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Speaker 1: was creates scenarios where a director had created a music

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Speaker 1: video whose side of cause game into french kiss publicly,

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Speaker 1: or there was so there was that scenery, and then

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Speaker 1: there was one where it just caused, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: anybody to start making out, right, And so they found

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Speaker 1: that the more discussed sensitive the participants were, according to

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Speaker 1: this discussed sensitivity scale, So the more discussed sensitive they were,

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Speaker 1: the more likely they were to say that the director

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Speaker 1: whose music video had the side effect of causing game

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Speaker 1: into french kiss intentionally encouraged them to do that, whereas

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Speaker 1: if a male female couple a man and a woman

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Speaker 1: saw the music video and kissed, that would be like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that's just an unintentional side effect of seeing a sexy

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Speaker 1: music video, right, And what they inferred from all of

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Speaker 1: this was that there was an implicit association really based

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Speaker 1: on that that was mediated by their discuss sensitivity and

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Speaker 1: that discussed sensitivity scale. For instance, judges you know, or

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Speaker 1: a value awaits how gross all you are by things

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Speaker 1: like rotting meat corpses bodily fluids, etcetera. And um, those

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Speaker 1: people who were more discussed sensitive seem to show more

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Speaker 1: unfavorable automatic associations with gay people as opposed to heterosexuals.

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Speaker 1: And this might not this wasn't outright homophobia, because these

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Speaker 1: same people were saying, you know, oh, no, I don't

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Speaker 1: have anything, you know more, I don't see a problem

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Speaker 1: with a gay couples making out. But then when you

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Speaker 1: start to test those implicit associations, things do change a

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Speaker 1: little bit. But the good news that Bearing points out

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Speaker 1: in that Scientific American article is that you can still

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Speaker 1: change those implicit associations through exposure. Right. And Hugo Schweiser,

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Speaker 1: who's an author and gender studies professor, takes us a

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Speaker 1: step further in his column on the topic about p

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Speaker 1: d A. He says that he was telling his students

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Speaker 1: that they're is a total political side to sexual behavior

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Speaker 1: instead of just like you gross as people are making

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Speaker 1: out or oh it isn't that cute? Those people are

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Speaker 1: making out the idea of upsetting people to to put

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Speaker 1: something in their face so that they eventually get used

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Speaker 1: to it. He says, sometimes, I argued, offending others is

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Speaker 1: desirable and necessary because the prejudices that undergird the sense

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Speaker 1: of being offended need to be uprooted. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: think about it, and it makes complete and total sense.

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Speaker 1: Like you do, you do need exposure to things sometimes

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Speaker 1: to break down those prejudices. I mean, think about just

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Speaker 1: like the first thing that pops into my mind is

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Speaker 1: racial desegregation. You know when we talked about the Arkansas nine,

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Speaker 1: like going into the school to desegregate. You have to

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Speaker 1: have exposure at some point to start breaking down those barriers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Because even if you don't think something is outright gross,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you still might not be used to it.

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Speaker 1: So the more that people are exposed to something, the

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Speaker 1: more they are used to it and don't think it's absurd. Right.

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Speaker 1: And speaking of race, is actually does tie in pretty

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Speaker 1: well to pd A because it's not just the LGBT

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Speaker 1: community that has to sometimes walk more of a tight

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Speaker 1: rope when it comes to p A. Um, inter racial

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Speaker 1: couple studies have shown are also less likely to show

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Speaker 1: p d A in public. Is that redundant? Show PDA

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Speaker 1: in public too? Well? I mean I guess you could

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00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: have pd A in your house in front of a

427
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: large wind at a party. Yeah. Um, Hugo Schweizer also

428
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: chimes in on this one um. He says that hate

429
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: often hides behind propriety. So people who are arguing like, well, no,

430
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't bother me that a white man and a

431
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: black woman are married or dating. No, that doesn't bother me.

432
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: It's just p d A grosses me out. Well, so

433
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: that's kind of what he builds off of when he's

434
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: talking about an experience he had with his first wife,

435
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: who was Asian American, and they're walking through Chinatown with

436
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: each other and holding hands, getting a lot of basically

437
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 1: angry stairs. He drops her hand and she asked him

438
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: angrily why he did that, and she says, they need

439
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: to be offended. We aren't doing anything the same race

440
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: couple wouldn't do. And so he says that part of

441
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: me being a discerning adult is doing what Alyssa asked

442
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: me to do nearly twenty five years ago. Distinguished between

443
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: a generalized discomfort with p d A and a far

444
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 1: uglier hostility towards affection that violates racial or gender norms.

445
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: One is worth respecting, the other isn't right, I mean,

446
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: and and the sad fact is there as reflected again,

447
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: I know I keep going back to it in that

448
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: Salona say that there there is still a risk of

449
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: violence for people. Um, but I guess the only thing

450
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,439
Speaker 1: that we can hope because you know, at first, PDA

451
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: might seem like such such a frilly, fluffy little topic,

452
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: but it is. It gets to the heart of so

453
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: many things of what we are comfortable with and what

454
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: we aren't, and you know, questions of why on earth

455
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: is that? What kind of prejudice is still out there,

456
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: just in terms of you know, doing like a flinch

457
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: test of of seeing something then you know, if it

458
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: bothers you, why doesn't bother you so much? Yeah, it

459
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: might not be so much the problem of the people

460
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: who were expressing affection. It might be more year problem.

461
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: Although honestly, seriously, the couple who was making out next

462
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: to me in the restaurant, come on, what do you well,

463
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: let's take a moment, Carolin, what do you think it

464
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: was that was so close to me? Oh? It was.

465
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: I think it was more proximity. And I couldn't like,

466
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: it's wondering if you're kissing your significant other and I

467
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: can like turn away and not watch you suck their face.

468
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: But I they were so close to us. Yeah, yeah,

469
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: I think that the proximity thing makes a lot of sense.

470
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 1: And the guy's legs were really long and the girl

471
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: was really tiny and so he had his legs like

472
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: on either side of Well, there are I do think

473
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: there are some. There are some basic pd A guidelines,

474
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: you know. There this comes up in a lot of

475
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: etiquette discourse. You know, Judith, Miss Manners Martin, for instance,

476
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: would say that being overly affection is just childish and

477
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: silly and not very considerate of others, to which I say,

478
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: he's up, miss Manners, and and that's Miss Manners to

479
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: you while I'm at it. Yeah, I mean there there

480
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: are degrees. There are degrees. She says that, you know,

481
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: p d A is okay in a greeting or as

482
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: part of a celebration, but it's not okay, And I

483
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: agree with her, it's not okay when people are in

484
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: a stage of love making. I'm sorry, call me a

485
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: proud Christine Conger, do it? I dare you groping? Yeah? Grow,

486
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: I feel like my my line starts to come with groping.

487
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: You know. But there is that thing. I think maybe

488
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: p d A is so frustrating because there is that

489
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: I can't look away factor. You know you want to

490
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: look away. You can't look away, and it's not because

491
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: you are enjoying it, but just because it's it is there,

492
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: and it is somewhat shocking to our lingering Victorian era sensibility.

493
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: If there's one thing that people have called me, it's

494
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: a Victorian prude. Well, dear roommate, my my dead roommate

495
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: has one piece of advice for people who are really

496
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: put off by over the top p DA go home.

497
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: He says that you should just stare at them really

498
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: hard until they finally notice you. And he goes, no,

499
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: no, no no, just keep going. It's fine, I'm just watching,

500
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: and that will discourage people expressing p d A. I

501
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: just got creeped out, dude, roommate. Everyone, Uh well, how

502
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: about one one final finding. This is sort of an

503
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: outlier from our research. This was actually one of the

504
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: only studies correlation causation, I will say, but one of

505
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: the only studies we could find on on possible backgrounds

506
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: for people's level of comfort, which is generalized p d A.

507
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: And it's just coming from the Journal of Divorce and

508
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: Remarriage published in two thousand and ten, and it linked

509
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: rental divorce with feelings of discomfort with witnessing PDA. Yeah,

510
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: I mean I wonder, I wonder how accurate that is.

511
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: But they did a study and they found that there

512
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: was a definite change in cardiac activity. Women from divorced

513
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: homes reported more discomfort than women from intact homes with

514
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: pd A, but they also had a hire cardiac response

515
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: to it. So I'm is that so much the divorce

516
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: or I mean, there's so many other things you could

517
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: take ano because I mean my parents are still married. Yeah,

518
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you know where I stand on this. I

519
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: couldn't have anything to do with my mother, who when

520
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: I called her earlier and she was on pain pills

521
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: from a minor medical procedure she had, was like, you

522
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: should have had me on your video to talk about

523
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: p d A because that's gross. So I don't know,

524
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: maybe it's generational. I don't know. Maybe she passed it

525
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: down to me gross. Maybe you should take over for

526
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: Judith Martin for the mis manners. I don't know if

527
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm mom has enough manner um. Well, I think I

528
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: think that about covers it with p d A, do you.

529
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I've done all this complaining where do I care, Um,

530
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: if you bring up a good point about proximity, I don't.

531
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to be able to hear any any

532
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: mouth sounds. I don't love saying it, you know. I

533
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: I was actually out at a bar a couple of

534
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and on the opposite side of the patio

535
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: there was a couple just just really getting to know

536
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: each other very well, and my my friends and I

537
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: like pointed and kind of laughed, um, and then I

538
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: went because I got turning around, and it was you know,

539
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: I don't like to do it. I mean sometimes though,

540
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: like I I can't. I can't be horrified by it

541
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: because I do engage sometimes. Sure not I try. I hope.

542
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: I hope not to h an uncomfortable extent. Well, pretty

543
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: last last night, keeping in mind that I was going

544
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: to come record this episode, I tried not to be

545
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: too judgmental because it wasn't it was the p d A,

546
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: that's not outside issue they were. I got into my

547
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: car after leaving the grocery store and there was a couple,

548
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean her seat, her seat was reclined, and she

549
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: was yeah. I was like, no, no, no, I'm saying no,

550
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: I'm no, no, no no, I'm defending the couple on Yeah, technically,

551
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: I mean I tried not to be judgmental, remembering what

552
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: we were going to talk about today. Well that's good, Caroline,

553
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: you you know that's that's good. I grimaced to myself

554
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: and then put it out of my mind, just turned

555
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: that NPR up and kept driving. My stereo is broken.

556
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, so to speak, Well, um, I hope we

557
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: get lots of stories about p d A, p p

558
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: d A or nay is it okay to p d

559
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: A as the title of this episode asked, because I

560
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: do want to hear from listeners out there, because I

561
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: feel like it's one of those there there's no like

562
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: middling ground when it comes to p d A. That's

563
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: what's so fascinating about. You either hate it or you

564
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: are doing stuff in your car next to Caroline. Oh,

565
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: come on next to me in traffic. Traffic. Uh So

566
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: send us your thoughts and the happy Valentine's Day. Even

567
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: you probably hate Valentine's Day, you know there's a chance,

568
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: but either way, I hope you have a good a

569
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: good February fourteen, you know, so email us mom stuff

570
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com. And here's one from Kiley. She says,

571
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed your interview with Emily Matcher, and I

572
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: planned to read her book, Emily Matcher. F y, I

573
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: that's the new Demistice steep blogger that we interviewed. Keili

574
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: goes on to say, I'm a thirty one year old

575
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: female PhD student in the biological sciences, and I definitely

576
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: find myself drawn to some of the activities that you

577
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: talked about with Emily, knitting, sewing, gardening, cooking things from scratch.

578
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: I think for me, part of it is that my

579
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: research is relatively long term in nature, and it can

580
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: be very frustrating and disheartening when something I have poured

581
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: days or weeks into simply doesn't work. On the other hand,

582
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: if I decide to make muffins, forty minutes later, I

583
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: have muffins, and usually they are at least edible and

584
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: sometimes quite delicious. It's a quick return on investment. I

585
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: also wonder about the role of the economic downturn in

586
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: this phenomenon. Some of these activities really are ways of

587
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: being frugal, i e. Making a gourmy meal instead of

588
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: eating at a really nice restaurant. I think in general,

589
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: my peer group is trying to temper the consumerism that

590
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: we grew up with and not be terrible to the

591
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: environment and make things of high quality that will last

592
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: for a long time. Those, I think are some of

593
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: my motivations. So thank you, Keiley. And I've got one

594
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 1: here from Wendy and it's in response to our episode

595
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: on fitness fads, but it has more to do with

596
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 1: electrical muscle stimula issue that we touched on in that episode.

597
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: So she talks about when she was a kid in

598
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: the eighties, she use electrical muscle stimulation during physical therapy

599
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: because she broke her left leg in several places and

600
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: couldn't walk for almost a year. So here's what happened.

601
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: My physical therapy was basically learning to walk again. At

602
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: the end of all my workouts, the physical therapist would

603
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: mistakenly leave me, a sixth grader on the table with

604
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: the E M S knobs within reach. I would turn

605
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: the electrical current as high as I could. Once they

606
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: walked away, I would lay back down and watch as

607
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: my leg jumped up and down on the table to

608
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: the horror of the others on tables and the staff.

609
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 1: I couldn't feel the current, but it was so much

610
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: fun to watch my leg bounce. I loved it when

611
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: others freaked out. They had to tell me every single

612
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: time to stop, and they also told my mom. The

613
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: steff eventually stopped leaving me alone during this part of

614
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: the therapy because let's be honest, would you leave a

615
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: sixth grader alone with machine like that. I'm happy to

616
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: say all the therapy worked and I can walk without

617
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 1: any sign of injury, which are the small miracles. Since

618
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: my leg broke and about seven spots, although it's hard

619
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: to tell how many hairline brakes were sustained around my

620
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: knee joints. It took me about ten years to get

621
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: back on a road bike, but I'm glad I did.

622
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: And thank you Wendy for that very bizarre image of

623
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: us child with a crazy leg. Uh well, you know,

624
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,799
Speaker 1: being electrically stimulated, not broken. That would just be sad anyway.

625
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: So if you have a letter to write us, mom

626
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: Stuff at Discovery dot com is where you can send it,

627
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: And if you would like to give us a Valentine's

628
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: Day present, it would be going on to Facebook right

629
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: now and liking us and following us on Twitter at

630
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast and following us on Tumbler stuff Mo'm

631
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: never told you dot tumbler dot com. And if you

632
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: are not feeling so lovey douby and you want to

633
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 1: know how breakups work, you can read about it. It's

634
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: at our website how stuff works dot com for more

635
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how

636
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com