1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,440
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, we are introducing Sean's brand new podcast, Subtitles.

2
00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:09,719
Speaker 1: On each episode, Sean talks to writers about movies about writers.

3
00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,800
Speaker 1: They discussed the depiction of writers and films, what's changed

4
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,960
Speaker 1: and stayed the same in the entertainment industry, and share

5
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,360
Speaker 1: a lot of personal stories inspired by the movie. I've

6
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:25,120
Speaker 1: known Sean for like eight years now, and he tells

7
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 1: so many stories I have never heard before. I really

8
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,480
Speaker 1: enjoy recording this and listening to it. It's a lot

9
00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: of fun, and I think you will really enjoy.

10
00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 2: It as well.

11
00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 1: So every episode will be available on the Patreon Patreon

12
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,840
Speaker 1: dot com Slash the Flagrant Ones, and we also made

13
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,400
Speaker 1: a dedicated free feed that will have selected episodes just

14
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,800
Speaker 1: on there for you as well, So if you want

15
00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,560
Speaker 1: to check that out, both of those links are available

16
00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,560
Speaker 1: in the episode description. And that's everything. So enjoy the

17
00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 1: first episode with Hayes discussing adaptations on.

18
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:18,680
Speaker 3: It and now, Hello, Hello, welcome to Subtitles on. This

19
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,959
Speaker 3: is a new podcast that we're doing just for you, guys,

20
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,720
Speaker 3: whoever's listening. It's only for people who listen to it.

21
00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,319
Speaker 4: Was it three am that you called me? H Hayes

22
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,199
Speaker 4: called me in the middle of the night, and he said, Sean,

23
00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,479
Speaker 4: I realized something. There are all these podcasts out there,

24
00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,920
Speaker 4: but no one is talking about movies, you know what

25
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,680
Speaker 4: I mean. Like there's all these shows. Everybody's doing a show.

26
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,760
Speaker 4: They're like and they're talking about all these like world

27
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,480
Speaker 4: issues and stuff, and nobody's ever just like watching a

28
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,640
Speaker 4: movie from like twenty years ago and just kind of

29
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 4: going like, man, this is I really liked this movie

30
00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 4: and it seemed like there was a vacuum. You said,

31
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:05,520
Speaker 4: you can't do it, you don't have time.

32
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 5: But well, what I said, whose hands is this idea

33
00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,639
Speaker 5: safe in? That's what I spent a lot of time,

34
00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,079
Speaker 5: like leading up to three. I hadn't just had the idea.

35
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,840
Speaker 5: It actually been sitting on it for a few months.

36
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:17,600
Speaker 5: But I was like, I can't just like put this

37
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,520
Speaker 5: out in the world in a way that like it

38
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,200
Speaker 5: can be mishandled, appropriated in a way that is not

39
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,920
Speaker 5: true to its original this idea.

40
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, because it's such a powerful concept to discuss

41
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:30,960
Speaker 4: a movie.

42
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 2: Yes, so you have been.

43
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,200
Speaker 5: I know, on this journey that we've talked about privately

44
00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,160
Speaker 5: where you are embracing your identity as a writer, throwing

45
00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 5: out all the like all the bullshit of like pretending

46
00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,400
Speaker 5: not to care so deeply about this this work and

47
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,440
Speaker 5: this craft craft talking to your wife and saying, I'm

48
00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 5: a writer.

49
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:55,639
Speaker 2: I'm not a husband.

50
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,720
Speaker 5: I will, I will, I will continue to we can

51
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,960
Speaker 5: stay together whatever, But my identity is writer, and that

52
00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,040
Speaker 5: always takes precedent.

53
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 4: People ask me for advice on becoming a writer, and

54
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,320
Speaker 4: I say, what are the three most important things in

55
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,040
Speaker 4: your life? And they might say my family, you know,

56
00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 4: my mommy and daddy, or my child, or my wife,

57
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,839
Speaker 4: my home or what's something else the one would find

58
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:31,160
Speaker 4: important car a car, my car. And I say, if

59
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,280
Speaker 4: you don't put writer first, you're going to lose all

60
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:34,760
Speaker 4: those things.

61
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, So you say, what's the most important thing in

62
00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,720
Speaker 5: your life? The answer should be writer.

63
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 4: Writer. If writers not the most important thing, cross everything

64
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,640
Speaker 4: else out, because you're going to lose it because being

65
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,080
Speaker 4: a writer, if you truly are a writer.

66
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 5: The exam number one example of a type of movie

67
00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,440
Speaker 5: that could be discussed on a show like this, Yes, yes,

68
00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 5: on a part of the idea that the movie repo

69
00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,400
Speaker 5: man not on this show, necessarily.

70
00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 4: Not this show, because this show, at least what this

71
00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:10,200
Speaker 4: show is going to do. Look, writers are under attack. Yes,

72
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 4: the studios are coming for our fucking next and so

73
00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 4: uh because of that, I feel even more defensive of

74
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,400
Speaker 4: my identity as a writer. And also I have a

75
00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,800
Speaker 4: little extra time, and so I thought, let's watch some

76
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:36,080
Speaker 4: movies about writing, writers, Hollywood, showbiz, studios, producers, writers, this

77
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 4: kind of thing, or even writers. I mean it's like

78
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,360
Speaker 4: I'm a screenwriter, have a successful one, but there's other

79
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:44,280
Speaker 4: kinds of writers.

80
00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,240
Speaker 2: I think this is the moment in the movie where

81
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,279
Speaker 2: the rebels are at the battlements and they're you know,

82
00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 2: they're they've been under siege for all this time.

83
00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,640
Speaker 4: Okay, who's the writer to way you're describing this, who's

84
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:02,359
Speaker 4: also a writer?

85
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:03,719
Speaker 2: And uh?

86
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,919
Speaker 5: The king of the castle is looking down and he

87
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:07,960
Speaker 5: sees them like turning.

88
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,479
Speaker 2: It looks like they're retreating, and he's like, oh, look

89
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:16,320
Speaker 2: at him, look at him. Run like rodents.

90
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,280
Speaker 4: But he and but they're running to get their gun

91
00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 4: or something.

92
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 5: When we're the gun yes, and I was thinking, like

93
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,479
Speaker 5: a trebiche, but that's a gun, that's what a gun

94
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,640
Speaker 5: used to be. Yes, And they roll in the trebuchet.

95
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,200
Speaker 5: Which is this podcast. It's celebrating writers, it's honoring writers

96
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:33,720
Speaker 5: and writing.

97
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,719
Speaker 4: And we called subtitles on. Yeah, and we call it

98
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,479
Speaker 4: that because the guest has to watch the movie with

99
00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:44,320
Speaker 4: the subtitles on, because we're not watching the movie. We're

100
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,760
Speaker 4: reading the movie and we're watching the movie, but we're

101
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,360
Speaker 4: reading the movie or watching the I don't know shit

102
00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 4: about I didn't go to fucking film school. Spoiler alert.

103
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 4: I don't know about a camera from a from a

104
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 4: a hole, you know, I don't know what that means.

105
00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,119
Speaker 4: But I do know about me to read a book,

106
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,120
Speaker 4: I can read it. I can read a book on

107
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,240
Speaker 4: the screen. And it's a movie. So the first movie

108
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,240
Speaker 4: we wanted to cover, the movie we wanted to discuss

109
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 4: is a movie called Adaptation, and it's about guess what

110
00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:18,719
Speaker 4: have you been listening?

111
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 2: A writer.

112
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,600
Speaker 5: It's about a couple of different writers and another one

113
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 5: as well, three writers total, and maybe there's and there's one.

114
00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:29,880
Speaker 4: More as a fourth writer.

115
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's kind of the movie that is the

116
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,119
Speaker 5: most about a writer in the process of writing movie

117
00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 5: and also made it so you could never really do

118
00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:48,680
Speaker 5: that again, yes, because they did it so much in

119
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:49,320
Speaker 5: this movie.

120
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, So allow me to allow me to drop the

121
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:57,400
Speaker 4: act as Scott Ackerman would say and just acknowledge that

122
00:06:57,560 --> 00:06:59,240
Speaker 4: I love this movie. I think it's one of the

123
00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,440
Speaker 4: best movies about out writing and the creative process that

124
00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,760
Speaker 4: I've ever seen. It's also like, it's very funny, how

125
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:16,600
Speaker 4: it's very kaufman Esque, but Charlie Kaufman, right, not Andy Kaufman. Yeah,

126
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 4: because it's like so complex and it like folds in

127
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,920
Speaker 4: on itself and it's super meta. It's like weird, but

128
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,800
Speaker 4: it's also very like personal and specific and I think

129
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,160
Speaker 4: accessible too. So I want to read the description of

130
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,119
Speaker 4: the movie that comes up when I go to rent

131
00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,360
Speaker 4: the movie from one of these big studios that's strangling

132
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:43,160
Speaker 4: my livelihood. A screenwriter asks his identical twin, who is

133
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,960
Speaker 4: in the same profession, for advice on a story about

134
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,400
Speaker 4: a serial killer. Yeah, you made a point that is

135
00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 4: one of the only concrete things that you can't say

136
00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:54,559
Speaker 4: definitely happens in the movie.

137
00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,840
Speaker 5: Well, that's so interesting because the screenwriter in this in

138
00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 5: that they're.

139
00:07:58,280 --> 00:07:59,520
Speaker 4: Talking about Donald.

140
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,480
Speaker 5: They're talking Donald, yes, yeah, and so, but I thought

141
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 5: that they were talking about Charlie. And really the only

142
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 5: event to the only turning point in the movie is

143
00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:09,800
Speaker 5: basically Charlie asks.

144
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 4: When Charlie finally asked Donald. So it's written by Charlie Kaufman.

145
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,160
Speaker 4: He chose to write the movie with a fictional twin

146
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,680
Speaker 4: brother who is also a screenwriter. Charlie Coffman is a

147
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 4: very sort of cerebral, highbrow artistic writer, and his brother

148
00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:34,280
Speaker 4: is writing like kind of Hollywood schlock. And it's interesting

149
00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,560
Speaker 4: that the description did choose to focus on the fact

150
00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:43,040
Speaker 4: that initially Charlie's brother asked him for help on his

151
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 4: like big commercial screenplay, rather than the reverse, which is, like,

152
00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,760
Speaker 4: I guess it's a spoiler. Honestly, if you think about

153
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,679
Speaker 4: it would be a pretty big spoiler to know that

154
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,760
Speaker 4: Charlie breaks down and asks his brother if he can help.

155
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,400
Speaker 4: I also say the other thing that is sort of

156
00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,600
Speaker 4: funny is at the beginning, in the opening of the movie,

157
00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 4: it says based on the book The Orchid Thief by

158
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,760
Speaker 4: Susan Orlean, which it is.

159
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 5: It is, and it was nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay

160
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,959
Speaker 5: because it is technically based on the book and it

161
00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 5: does faithfully reproduce huge chunks of that story.

162
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,960
Speaker 4: Huge sections of the book. And also one of the

163
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,480
Speaker 4: things I think is so smart about the way it's

164
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,800
Speaker 4: done is he chose to write himself into the movie.

165
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,000
Speaker 4: He chose to write in his struggle adapting the book

166
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,600
Speaker 4: into a movie and make the movie about how hard

167
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 4: it was for him to write the movie and adapt

168
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:47,920
Speaker 4: the book. But I think what he sees on was

169
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,800
Speaker 4: that some of the themes that were being explored in the

170
00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:57,079
Speaker 4: book of like whatever, a desire to belong and sort

171
00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 4: of longing and these other co that he was experiencing

172
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,880
Speaker 4: those themes, and that by writing about it he would

173
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,240
Speaker 4: honor sort of the underpinnings of the book without actually

174
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,440
Speaker 4: like doing exactly what was in the book.

175
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:18,040
Speaker 5: Let's go back two thousand and two. I'm sixteen, little dork,

176
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:24,840
Speaker 5: not hot I have made at this time, Like this

177
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,800
Speaker 5: was the time when I think a lot of people

178
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,680
Speaker 5: that age that description were making like loving movies. Their

179
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,840
Speaker 5: identity and stuff was coming out at that time that

180
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,080
Speaker 5: you know, kid like me, I got my little Panasonic

181
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 5: DVD player. You could have your friends over, and there

182
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 5: were all those movies that you would just watch on

183
00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:55,319
Speaker 5: DVD that were relatively new, Yeah, Memento, moholland Drive Lost

184
00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,320
Speaker 5: in Translation. For comedies, it was like Napoleon Dynamite and

185
00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:05,920
Speaker 5: like all of these movies that were kind of built around.

186
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 2: Indie auteurs.

187
00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Charlie Coffin being just like the avatar of

188
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 5: that era. Certainly for writers, no one was really like

189
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,559
Speaker 5: touching him as And also documentaries around that same time,

190
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,839
Speaker 5: all those amazing documentaries coming out Capturing the Freeman's Fog

191
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 5: of War, Grizzly Man, Bowling for Columbine, these movies that

192
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:39,080
Speaker 5: are like making good money as indie movies also aut projects. Yeah,

193
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,000
Speaker 5: and then I think at some point it turned the corner.

194
00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,959
Speaker 5: I think of like Little Miss Sunshine and King of

195
00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,000
Speaker 5: Kong for the one fiction movie in the one documentary

196
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 5: movie where it just got like this kind of corporate.

197
00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 4: It had become a formula or something. Were like, oh,

198
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 4: they like turned it into an algorithm, you know exactly

199
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,280
Speaker 4: how to package it and promote it. And it no

200
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 4: longer feels like I'm seeing something private.

201
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,120
Speaker 2: Yes, the way that he's made fucking bank.

202
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 4: They crushed and not you know whatever, not that they suck,

203
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,440
Speaker 4: but they don't have the same It felt like there

204
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,520
Speaker 4: was a little grit to like, Yeah, and the story

205
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 4: of like there was no cynicism or whatever to the

206
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 4: scripting of Being John Malkovich, which was the movie that

207
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 4: Kaufman made prior to this, where it was this script

208
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,840
Speaker 4: I think that floated around forever and everyone was like, God,

209
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,040
Speaker 4: I fucking love this, No one's ever gonna make it.

210
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,880
Speaker 4: Why did you write it? Like you're so smart? Do

211
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 4: you want to write something we would make? And he

212
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,080
Speaker 4: was like, no, no, no, I want to do this, and

213
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,080
Speaker 4: it finally I think it ended up with the Coppolas,

214
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,880
Speaker 4: and then Sophia was married just Bike Jones at the time,

215
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,240
Speaker 4: and he was like, oh, I think I know how

216
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,480
Speaker 4: to do this, and so that collaboration happened. And the

217
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,960
Speaker 4: story that Charlie Kaufman tells is that while he was

218
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,200
Speaker 4: on set during the making of that movie, he was

219
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,680
Speaker 4: he had been hired to adopt the Orcid Thief and

220
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,520
Speaker 4: was kind of going, why did I take this assignment

221
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,400
Speaker 4: that was never going to be able to meet this

222
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,240
Speaker 4: at the time, right, And he was going, I don't

223
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,200
Speaker 4: know how to do it. And then he said the

224
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,440
Speaker 4: only person he told about his idea to write himself

225
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,480
Speaker 4: in was Spike Jones, and that if Spike Jones had

226
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,080
Speaker 4: been like, what are you talking about here? Insane, that

227
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:32,840
Speaker 4: he just wouldn't have done it. But he was like,

228
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,960
Speaker 4: all right, let's see it. And then that kind of

229
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:41,520
Speaker 4: gave him the courage. So it even somebody very unique

230
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,320
Speaker 4: and with like this big vision needed a collaborator who

231
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 4: believed in them. And it does make me think of

232
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 4: my relationship with Kevin Bartell, you know what I mean,

233
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 4: Like you do have to look and go like, yes,

234
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 4: I'm a singular voice, Like yes, I'm a creative murder kin.

235
00:13:58,559 --> 00:13:58,960
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

236
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,200
Speaker 4: But like if I didn't have Kevin going like okay, sure,

237
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 4: Like I don't know if I would have had the

238
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 4: guts to make a movie podcast which no one has

239
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,040
Speaker 4: ever thought of before.

240
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,959
Speaker 5: I thought about myself a lot watching this movie too.

241
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 5: And so it's a movie about the movie that ends

242
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 5: up on screen. It's about the process of writing that movie. Yeah,

243
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,000
Speaker 5: And kind of the pretense of it is that.

244
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 2: The movie that you are watching kind.

245
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 5: Of sucks because like because of like you see what

246
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,160
Speaker 5: went into it. It's someone who has really no idea

247
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,520
Speaker 5: what to do. Every idea that he has in the

248
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,280
Speaker 5: movie ends up he like he shuffles through all these

249
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 5: different versions of the movie he wants.

250
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,480
Speaker 2: To make and they all end up on screen.

251
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 4: They're all in the movie. Yes, every time he goes

252
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 4: like no, no, no, that's not how to start it.

253
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 4: I should start it like this. It's like, well they

254
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,840
Speaker 4: all all of those sections get filmed and.

255
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,160
Speaker 5: Get everything gets filmed, and then the entire third act.

256
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,800
Speaker 5: The idea is that his brother has taken over the

257
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,760
Speaker 5: process of writing the movie and turned it into something

258
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,160
Speaker 5: completely different that is like sort of garbage, but not

259
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,040
Speaker 5: stylized in such a way that it's like actually bad

260
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 5: on screen. It's like a decently executed version of it.

261
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a there's like this like sort of ironic

262
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 4: detachment where it's like, I'm allowed to do this like shitty,

263
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 4: sucky commercial portion of the movie because I have acknowledged

264
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,640
Speaker 4: when someone does it, and you know that the person

265
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:42,200
Speaker 4: in the movie experienced the events, yes, thinks that what

266
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 4: he's experienced would be bad if it was in a movie. Yes,

267
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,320
Speaker 4: And so it's like just a great meta aspect. So

268
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 4: I think, like it's an out where you can't judge

269
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 4: it because he's already judged it.

270
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:55,920
Speaker 2: It is.

271
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 5: It is be rabbit in a so nestled in that

272
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 5: out so much of what we've done. It's such a

273
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:07,000
Speaker 5: crutch to be like, yeah, we think it's bad, we

274
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 5: know it sucks. We're not even trying. Like, yeah, watching

275
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,400
Speaker 5: this movie was very satisfying, but also.

276
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,200
Speaker 4: Well, imagine opening up a movie podcast by being like, oh,

277
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,960
Speaker 4: no one's ever done a movie podcast, and then so

278
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,120
Speaker 4: it's like, I know there's no you can't tell me,

279
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,960
Speaker 4: there's a security.

280
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 5: Blanket, and now you're just like cloaked in, and then

281
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 5: you can just get away with with fucking up as

282
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,320
Speaker 5: much as you want because.

283
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 4: Well, he said it sucked. Yes, that's exactly Am I

284
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 4: gonna come for him?

285
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 2: Yes?

286
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, And then it turns on itself where like, Okay,

287
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,240
Speaker 5: he knows that he did this badly on purpose, and

288
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,440
Speaker 5: so that's why the movie is so good and so smart.

289
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 4: But I wanna because you you're touching on some of

290
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,240
Speaker 4: the stuff I wanted to say about it, which is

291
00:16:52,360 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 4: like as inaccessible and self serving and and alienating as

292
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,160
Speaker 4: a movie about like someone's personal creative process could be

293
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,000
Speaker 4: and could seem. And as much as that sounds like

294
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,439
Speaker 4: a bad idea for how to do a movie like this,

295
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 4: there are a lot of things that are so smart,

296
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,560
Speaker 4: I think, including that about the way it's executed, and

297
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,080
Speaker 4: like the opening, which is a theme that gets repeated

298
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,480
Speaker 4: a little bit of him asking a series of questions,

299
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,760
Speaker 4: like you're just inside his brain, and it's like he's

300
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,040
Speaker 4: like going, like I should do this, I should do that.

301
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:39,560
Speaker 4: He's judging himself. He's like thinking about how he's losing

302
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,600
Speaker 4: his hair and he's getting weight, and he's you know,

303
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,040
Speaker 4: all these different judgments, and whenever he sits down to write,

304
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 4: it's like, maybe it should be this, Maybe it should

305
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 4: be that, Like I should get something to eat, I

306
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 4: should eat a little bit, just a little something like

307
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 4: that is specific and true to when you have to write,

308
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 4: But I also think it's totally universal that everyone has

309
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 4: this inner monologue where it's like there's something I'm supposed

310
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 4: to do, I just have to do it, and then

311
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,159
Speaker 4: your brain starts trying to do something else. It doesn't

312
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,760
Speaker 4: want to do the work part, and it will try

313
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,280
Speaker 4: to distract you, and then it will ultimately start to

314
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,200
Speaker 4: attack you like you're negotiating with a wild animal, where

315
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,960
Speaker 4: it's going like I so badly don't want to do

316
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 4: this work, which if I just thought about it, we

317
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,440
Speaker 4: would be done and be able to execute it. That

318
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,680
Speaker 4: I don't just want to procrastinate. I'm going to kill you,

319
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,119
Speaker 4: like I want you to hate yourself so much that

320
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 4: you never do anything again, and to convince you that

321
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,119
Speaker 4: you are dying. This is something that runs through all

322
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:41,359
Speaker 4: of it.

323
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 5: I think it's like a really serious thing he's dealt

324
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 5: with over his life, Like.

325
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, some kind of hypochondria, where like.

326
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,679
Speaker 5: He talks about in this movie, it's like the bump

327
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,439
Speaker 5: on his leg when you get to like sinecticky New York,

328
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,479
Speaker 5: like you realize like growths and stuff. Yeah, that's kind

329
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,560
Speaker 5: of like taking over his mind and points. Yeah, And

330
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,919
Speaker 5: I think it's interesting. I think what he does in

331
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,919
Speaker 5: this movie is more palatable to what he ended up

332
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,720
Speaker 5: doing later in his career. He is obviously obsessed with

333
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,160
Speaker 5: the criticism, and in this movie it's all about self

334
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,400
Speaker 5: criticism and how much he hates himself and everyone else

335
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 5: in the movie kind of like likes his shit generally, Yeah,

336
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 5: but like he just can't understand that. He can't acknowledge that,

337
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 5: and then his career turned towards attacking his critics. Sean

338
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 5: and I read a book together called kin an Kind,

339
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 5: where he it's entirely about this movie critic character who

340
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,880
Speaker 5: is based on Richard Brody, who he hates his main

341
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 5: character and the main character hates Charlie Kauffman talks about

342
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 5: Charlie Coffman, and I think part of what has reduced

343
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,479
Speaker 5: his productivity in later years is he sunk like a

344
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 5: decade into this movie called I Think Frank or Francis

345
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,400
Speaker 5: that he could never get funding for. It was an

346
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 5: original musical with fifty songs, and it's about a comment

347
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 5: or like a troll likenomoly control.

348
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, he became obsessed with the criticism. And Richard Brody was,

349
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,520
Speaker 4: you know, like a well respected critic for The New

350
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,199
Speaker 4: Yorker who hated Charlie Coffman's movie. Yeah, like was just like,

351
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 4: this is indulgent, this is and I think it must

352
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 4: have really stuck to him. I respect aunt kind as

353
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,479
Speaker 4: one of the most in depth, totally petty works of art.

354
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've ever seen Gout.

355
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 4: Which is also hilariously funny, but yeah, the Franker frit

356
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 4: saying it's about and it was about like internet outrage

357
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,479
Speaker 4: culture a little bit, but in like twenty ten, Yeah,

358
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,360
Speaker 4: like before it was what you think of now, it

359
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,880
Speaker 4: was like when it was when I think it would

360
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,199
Speaker 4: have been more woke or whatever to be on the

361
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 4: side of internet outrages. Out of control because it was like,

362
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 4: you know, so you've been publicly like John Ross's era

363
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,120
Speaker 4: where it was like, hey, wait a minute, we need

364
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 4: to calm down, and then of course the world was

365
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 4: like no, let's get He.

366
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,640
Speaker 5: Was probably talking about like movie message boards and things

367
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,239
Speaker 5: like totally when I was reading about the movie, they

368
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 5: were talking about how like Drew mcwheeney at ain't a

369
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 5: cool news yes had reviewed the script, that had reviewed

370
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,199
Speaker 5: the script exactly, And so that's the kind of thing

371
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 5: I'm sure at that time in his life was driving

372
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 5: him literally insane.

373
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 4: The other the the other thing I wanted to mention

374
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 4: about how he made the idea accessible. And I agree

375
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 4: that this this is to me personally because of probably

376
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 4: whatever where I was in my life and when I

377
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 4: saw it. I'm a little older than you, but so

378
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 4: I wasn't you know, sixteen, I was actually fucking badass.

379
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 4: I was two thousand and two. I was twenty one.

380
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 4: I was fucking parting like a rock star. Got sober

381
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 4: like a year later. So so I thought this was

382
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 4: kind of his peak for me, like this was the

383
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 4: being John Malkovich was cool. And then it was like, Okay,

384
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 4: I can do anything, but I've been hired to a

385
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 4: depth this book and I'm gonna do this crazy version

386
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 4: of it, and I thought it was awesome. And because

387
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 4: of what you're saying, where he puts every version, like

388
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 4: every idea he comes up with ends up into the

389
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 4: in the movie, you understand why you're seeing what you're seeing.

390
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 4: Like it opens with this like time lapse evolution of

391
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 4: like nature and like you know, the world and life

392
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 4: being born and then like you know, primates becoming humans

393
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 4: and all this stuff. And then you see him get

394
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 4: the idea to have the movie open with that, yeah,

395
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 4: and understand why he wants it. And so there's some

396
00:22:54,320 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 4: like very clever kind of thematic smart stuff in the movie.

397
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 4: But he also holds your hand if you're a dumb guy,

398
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 4: to be like, this is why this movie is presented

399
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 4: this way, This is why it's important. This is what

400
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 4: made me think it would be good to put in. Yeah,

401
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 4: And so that's why you watched it, right, And it

402
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 4: lets you feel like you totally understand the theme. So

403
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 4: it's it's weirdly like less alienating, yeah than just presenting

404
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 4: the movie on its face.

405
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 5: But it undercuts it too, right, because you see him

406
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 5: come up with all these ideas out of desperation. They

407
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,920
Speaker 5: sound very cliched when he's talking them out rather than

408
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 5: when you're seeing it on screen. So if you liked

409
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 5: it later in the movie, he's like, oh you like that,

410
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 5: that actually sucks mm hmm. And if you didn't like it,

411
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 5: you're like, now now you're brought into the movie. Because

412
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 5: he's all he also thinks all of his ideas are

413
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 5: like within the movie. He thinks they're like contriving, right,

414
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 5: and yeah, unworkable.

415
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 4: Well, he also every time he has momentum, yes, every

416
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 4: single time, he's like going like, no, I have it

417
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 4: like reopened with roach. He pulls over to the swap

418
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 4: and he's like going through this stuff. And then what

419
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 4: will derail him is his brother will walk in, or

420
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 4: like his agent will call him, and he will hear

421
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 4: that someone who he thinks of as like less talented

422
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 4: and having less value than him has more momentum and

423
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 4: more success. And that is the most relatable thing, oh,

424
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 4: I have ever seen, Like a writer. Acknowledge about writing

425
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 4: is like you open up Deadline and see that someone

426
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 4: you know sold the script, and you look at the

427
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 4: script you're working on and you're like I'm gonna fucking

428
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 4: write this now. They already sold that thing. It's about

429
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 4: to get shot, Like what am I fucking doing? Like

430
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,959
Speaker 4: you know, you're just like oh, and that's like and

431
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 4: that's kind of yeah, that that idea is probably better,

432
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 4: that's going to do better. Yeah, And it just it's

433
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 4: paralyzing that other people are doing it and that you're

434
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 4: like also like, well, if that's what everyone likes and

435
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 4: that's what people are buying, why am I going to

436
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 4: try to do my thing?

437
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: Yeah?

438
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 4: Like I thought my thing was unique and cool, but

439
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 4: I guess like that is what people want, so fuck

440
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 4: it and so like that, and it's not it. I thought.

441
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 4: It's done in kind of a subtle way where it

442
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 4: just feels like, oh, his annoying brother keeps interrupting him,

443
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 4: but he always interrupts him with like I figured out

444
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 4: the third act, or like I finished the script, or

445
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 4: his age going like your brother's script is.

446
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 2: Incredible, Yeah, and then the spell is kind of broken. Yeah.

447
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: You just can't go back to the thing that you like.

448
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 4: No, your momentum's gone and you're like now thinking about

449
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 4: yourself and your career and all this other stuff again.

450
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 4: You're no longer in the actual creative act that you're

451
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 4: trying to do.

452
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

453
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 5: I think back in the early two thousands, compared to

454
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 5: like when we started at like writing and like started

455
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 5: working in entertainment, that was a time when you could

456
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 5: be identified as someone who came up with ideas and

457
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 5: would like bring an idea to a movie and then

458
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 5: like realize that in a script. But just kind of

459
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 5: like an autor like conception of how Hollywood works. If

460
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 5: that existed from the time that I started writing, like

461
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 5: in like two thousand and nine or whatever, it was

462
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 5: on its way out, I think, and it became much

463
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 5: more about being brought in to realize an idea that

464
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 5: had already been.

465
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 4: Reapproved, had been through all the test marketing already, yeah,

466
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: and it was like, we want something exactly like this.

467
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

468
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 5: And that's always how TV has kind of worked, where

469
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 5: if you're writing on a show, you're there to realize

470
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 5: the idea that someone else has come up with. The

471
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 5: auteurs got to make TV for the next few years

472
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 5: or so. But I think that has started to fall

473
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 5: off as well, the idea like like of someone being

474
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 5: able to come in with a fully formed premise like

475
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 5: Breaking Bad or mad Men or whatever it is, and

476
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 5: like see it all the way through that stuff doesn't

477
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 5: seem to really be happening anymore either.

478
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 4: On the amount of pre work that you need to do,

479
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 4: Like it's just they you know. It was also in

480
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 4: TV you could bring in a great pilot that you wrote,

481
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 4: I have this great pilot I wrote Breaking Bad or

482
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 4: like mad Men was like a respec like he wrote

483
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 4: mad Men. Yeah, And then like it got to AMC

484
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 4: and they were like, we want we're getting in the

485
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 4: TV business. We want to do this, and like you

486
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 4: tell us what it is now it would be like, okay, cool,

487
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 4: we read mad Men. We do want to do a

488
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 4: show about an advertising agency. Why don't you outline what

489
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 4: the first three seasons would be? Yes, And then like

490
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 4: we've got notes on that. You know, there's just so

491
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 4: much more of like them asking you alone to like

492
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 4: map everything out, which is probably not first of all,

493
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 4: it's probably not what it's going to be if you

494
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: ever get to actually make it, and it's probably not

495
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 4: as good is what it is when you do get

496
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 4: the collaboration of the way TV's actually written, which is

497
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 4: like with a with a group. But Charlie Kaufman started

498
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 4: in television, which is kind of interesting. I'll say this

499
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 4: probably on this movie podcast a lot. I haven't worked

500
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 4: really in movies. I've written, you know, my own feature

501
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 4: stuff where I've done punch up on other people's stuff,

502
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 4: but I've never like done a movie. I don't know

503
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 4: that side of the business as well. But I like

504
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 4: that he did start out staffing. He stapped on Getta Life,

505
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 4: which one of the weirdest shows ever. Yeah, I'm and

506
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 4: I think was successful there because they were so open

507
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 4: to somebody with like really unique ideas, and then went

508
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 4: through a journey of some other shows, finally on Ned

509
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 4: and Stacy, which is like a pretty down the middle

510
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 4: sitcom that he was a producer on. And I think

511
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 4: that at that point was probably pretty fed up with TV,

512
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 4: because that is when you're, as you say, you're realizing

513
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 4: someone else's vision. You're job when you get hired on

514
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 4: a staff, uh is there's a showrunner, often also the creator,

515
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 4: who has a tone and a voice that they've decided

516
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 4: on in a way they think the show should go,

517
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 4: and you are trying to aim at the same target

518
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 4: as them. You're not trying to do like your version

519
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 4: of their idea. You're trying to help them make their idea.

520
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

521
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 5: With comedy, I think you can get that satisfaction, satisfaction from.

522
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: Like, oh my jokes are getting in.

523
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, each individual joke is like a creative product that's yours.

524
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 5: Especially Won I was ready on Family Guy. It's so modular. Yeah,

525
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 5: the cutaways and stuff. You could just be like, oh

526
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 5: that's mine, that's like.

527
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 4: Straight, my little stem that's in here.

528
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like you can keep track of your stats

529
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 5: better then you can on some other types of shows,

530
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 5: just like oh my shit's getting in, like I'm good

531
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 5: at at this. Yeah, and you can come up with

532
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 5: some develop some ownership over the product in that way.

533
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. And and full story in a sitcom that has

534
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 4: like a serialized e or something you can you can

535
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 4: point to sometimes like oh I cracked this story piece something.

536
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: Like get a Life.

537
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 5: Each premise was such a unique, like weird story. I'm

538
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 5: sure he was coming up with stuff that really felt

539
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 5: like it was it was his. And so you're now

540
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 5: you're you're like developing an idea of yourself as a

541
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 5: writer even though you're subsumed into this project. Yeah, I

542
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 5: think that's harder to do now with comedy and less

543
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 5: joke based structures where you're just like basically sitting with

544
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 5: your arms crossed trying to carve an eight episode plot arc.

545
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 5: Yeah you know out of I mean you just like wrestling.

546
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 5: It's like turning a like a cruise ship rather than.

547
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, any big like innovative pitch then like Jostle's loose,

548
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 4: like the two episodes around it on either side, and

549
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 4: it's like so you're like, oh, I have a pitch,

550
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 4: but it creates a lot of work.

551
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so you end up finishing the day with

552
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 5: much more frustration and no real sense of satisfaction those

553
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 5: days because the individual pitch, the small idea is just

554
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 5: not as relevant. And I think lots of comedy TV

555
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 5: writing today, but talk about them.

556
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: My shit is.

557
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 4: I mean, when I pitch, it's really good. Talk about

558
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 4: what like the lead time on some of these shows.

559
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 5: I think feel like everyone's talking about Jury Duty is

560
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 5: like kind of this throwback thing where like it's it's

561
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 5: a small show but like an interesting idea. I was

562
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 5: in the mini room for Jury Duty and I think

563
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 5: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, something like that. When the show

564
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 5: came out on air, I was like, Oh, they did

565
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 5: a different show about jury Duty. I had no idea

566
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 5: it was the.

567
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 4: Show game creator developed game Ye.

568
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 5: For so long at the time, they hadn't talked about

569
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 5: the like someone in the room doesn't know that it's real,

570
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 5: which became like the main premise. It was just kind

571
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 5: of a show about jury duty. But they did want

572
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 5: to have a They were talking about it being Will Ferrell,

573
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 5: like the one celebrity that's in there that ended up

574
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 5: being James Marsden.

575
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 4: I think for it like three years ago and like

576
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 4: you know, never, I mean, and I maybe wasn't even

577
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 4: at the same network that it ended up airing on.

578
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 5: Like it was originally for ABC as part of the

579
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 5: Eisenberg and Stepnitsky's like overall deal, and it might have

580
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 5: still gone through ABC Studios. I don't know if they

581
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 5: even still have their deal there, but yeah, and it

582
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 5: was maybe gonna end up on HBO that they were

583
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 5: talking about. But that, I mean, that is more time

584
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 5: investment than I think most people are willing to put

585
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 5: into any project at this point. I mean, that's a

586
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 5: that's a really really long It's a lot for stuff

587
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 5: that used to turn around in less than a year

588
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 5: from from conception to it being on air.

589
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, So as we talk about our experiences in TV

590
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 4: writing and stuff, I want to mention, like, so one

591
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,479
Speaker 4: of the first things you see in the movie when

592
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 4: you when you see Charlie Kaufman is he's on set

593
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 4: and he's on the set of being John Malkovich. And

594
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 4: I think it's very well illustrated. You mentioned to me

595
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 4: that if that was you, you would feel like you were.

596
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 4: I believe you said King should have yeah, and that

597
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 4: he but that he is like feeling very out of

598
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 4: place and kind of miserable on set, and you know,

599
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,959
Speaker 4: you just you you can see on his face that

600
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: like the self loathing is present there and he wants

601
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 4: wants some kind of acknowledgment or something or to disappear,

602
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 4: but he just like he feels like he's in the

603
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 4: way and.

604
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 5: People are treating And I think it's probably overblown how

605
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 5: much people are, like how disrespectful people are of him

606
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 5: on the set, because he was and again, this is

607
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 5: all how he sees the world. The entire movie is

608
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 5: filtered through his his.

609
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 4: There's a surreal aspect of it, and there's some things

610
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 4: that like ring a little bit false, so exchanges, but

611
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 4: I think it's because it's stylized into like this is

612
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 4: this is exactly how he or it's like a shorthand

613
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 4: for how he felt or how he perceived it.

614
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 5: Yes, and I do think it's really interesting. I remember

615
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 5: the first time is being on set for like my

616
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 5: sketch on Nick Swartzen's Comedy Central show, or like my

617
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 5: ti P ten times, Yeah, my episode's a Big Lake

618
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 5: or whatever. I was just like so puffed up watching them.

619
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 5: I still have like the menu from the fucking diner

620
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 5: at Big Lake because that I remember thinking like someone

621
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 5: had to go make this, so one had to go

622
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 5: like put this together. Just a number of people that

623
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 5: are now like springing into action from something you created. Yeah,

624
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 5: it's very easy to get like full of yourself in

625
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 5: that context. But he is so diseased that like he's

626
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 5: watching people like there's no better version of like a

627
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 5: writer's work being realized. Like from start to finish, he

628
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 5: had this idea it is being shot.

629
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: It was. The movie ended up being absolutely beloved.

630
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's got like John Malkovich like to in being

631
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 5: John Malcovit, in being John Malcovit.

632
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 4: But but I so you said that to me, and

633
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 4: I totally disagreed, because I don't feel that way when

634
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 4: I'm on set, and I've been you know, I've been

635
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 4: like an executive producer on shows, Like I've been on sets. Yes,

636
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 4: I've been on set for things that are shot that

637
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 4: are mine. I've been on set for things I didn't write,

638
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 4: but I was the person who the show creators trusted

639
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 4: the most to be there overseeing it. Like and you know,

640
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 4: I worked on a show where I got sent to

641
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 4: set all the time and for my stuff and others,

642
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 4: and I as a writer especially, I guess because it

643
00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 4: was never my show. Yeah, felt totally in the way.

644
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 4: I constantly think like all these like other trades. People

645
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 4: are just like get the fuck out of my way,

646
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 4: Like I'm trying to move like a big light, like

647
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 4: you just like can you not stand there? And then

648
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 4: you know, sometimes you have a chair, but it's like

649
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 4: set far back from everyone else. You're like looking through

650
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 4: like other chairs in people's heads. And then there's like

651
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 4: either they turn to ask you if you have something,

652
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 4: Like they'll film a scene, they'll do rehearsal, They'll turn

653
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 4: to you and they'll either go like are you good?

654
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 4: Do you have anything? And then you're like supposed to

655
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 4: I guess be like, yes, here's the best line, like

656
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 4: or really what they want is for you to go

657
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 4: like that's great, like keep going, like they don't want

658
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 4: your input really, Or there's like a problem that you're

659
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 4: now supposed to solve and it's like something that ten

660
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 4: people worked on for weeks and then there's an issue

661
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 4: with it and they're like, now you one person in

662
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 4: thirty seconds, like fix it.

663
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 2: Make it.

664
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 5: That that's different and that I definitely would feel like

665
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 5: later in my work all the time, Like that's stress

666
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 5: and anxiety about like having to do something that was

667
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 5: important or like whatever. Thomas Hayden Church has an unrealizable

668
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 5: idea that you have to like talk him out of

669
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 5: or things like that. But that's very different from what

670
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 5: Charlie Kaufman is showing, which is like he doesn't need

671
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 5: to be there at all, and nobody I don't.

672
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 4: I don't feel like anyone knows who I am or

673
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 4: why I'm there, and it's like I am this person

674
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 4: who It's like why is this fucking guy like right

675
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 4: next to the monitor, Yeah, Like why is he here? Yeah?

676
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 4: And like maybe the especially in television, where there's a

677
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 4: new director every week. It's like some directors are like

678
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 4: cool and inclusive and like, hey, we should do this

679
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 4: and like talk to you about it. Yeah, But some

680
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 4: of them, if you do have something where you're like,

681
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 4: I know, we need to get that line a different

682
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 4: way or something like that, you have to go and

683
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 4: bother them, Like you have to go and interrupt them,

684
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 4: like they won't come to you. You have to go like, hey, sorry,

685
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 4: can you start? Can you not? Can you not actually

686
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 4: move on to a new shot, And they're like what,

687
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 4: And it's like I hate it. Yeah, I just feel

688
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 4: so much anxiety. I feel totally unnecessary. There was a

689
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 4: show that I was a producer on and I was

690
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 4: there on set for all of it, and I had

691
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: been involved in some of the table reads early on,

692
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 4: and you know the moment where he's staring at Catherine

693
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 4: Keener and it's like he wants the cast to say

694
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 4: hi to him. Like that's that's such a feeling that

695
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 4: I know of of being like maybe if some of

696
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 4: the other important creative people who are recognized by everyone

697
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 4: here talk to me like they think I'm cool, Yeah,

698
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 4: that will settle some of the issues that I'm having. Yeah,

699
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 4: And so I had one of the actors come up

700
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 4: to me and start talking to me, and they were

701
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 4: like walking with me, and I like walked, you know,

702
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 4: from the set back to my office and they were like, whoa,

703
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 4: You've got your own office. Look at you. Move it up.

704
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 4: And I was like oh yeah, yeah yeah, And through

705
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 4: the conversation realized that they thought I was someone who

706
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 4: had only been hired to help out with table reads

707
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 4: because I read all the extra parts of the table read.

708
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 4: Now that they thought that was a job at all, Yes,

709
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 4: that that was a job that I would then be

710
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 4: carried on to set to watch other people film when

711
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 4: those parts had.

712
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 5: Been cast by like for the next table reason.

713
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 4: It was like what, wow, actually got an office.

714
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was like that's very funny.

715
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 4: I'm I'm your boss. Yeah, but it's like you don't

716
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 4: know my name. You know my name, my name is

717
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 4: on some of the scripts, okay, but that I just

718
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 4: feel like so worthless yeah, and like I'm and like

719
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 4: I'm in the way. So I connected to.

720
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 5: That well, the like what we're talking about is what

721
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 5: you're assuming that other people are thinking. And same for me,

722
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 5: because I would fall into this place sometimes of being

723
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 5: like oh, like God, like I'm the right you know,

724
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 5: especially when I was really young. Yeah, it's like, oh,

725
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 5: I'm the writer. Everyone's talking about how young I am

726
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 5: to be here, Like everyone like is like scared to

727
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 5: talk to me. But it is acknowledging my role in

728
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 5: the situation. And I think the entire movie is about

729
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 5: his assumption of what people think about him, which is

730
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 5: not accurate at all, Like it is a product of

731
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 5: his mental health problems. And I think it's really interesting

732
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 5: how the movie is like that, Like the character he's

733
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 5: mostly writing method, it's not him, is another writer, yeah,

734
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 5: who he does not assume has any of those same insecurities,

735
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,439
Speaker 5: doesn't assume that she has problems. Just like you cut

736
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 5: from his office to hers at one point. His office

737
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 5: is a tiny little table with a shitty typewriter on it.

738
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 5: There's nothing on the wall. It's in his bedroom, I.

739
00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: Think, and it looks like total crap.

740
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 5: And then you cut to her office, which is like

741
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 5: wood paneled and has like nice books and like things

742
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 5: all over the place, and she's just kind of like

743
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 5: typing away.

744
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 4: She's got a computer.

745
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, she's got her little computer, and like her problems

746
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 5: are more about like searching for meaning and like real

747
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 5: like what's authentic love and things like that, But she's

748
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 5: not shown as seeing like, oh, this other fucking writer

749
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 5: is just like like this other New Yorker writers got

750
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 5: this like getting more attention than me, which I know

751
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 5: I'm friends with New Yorker writ like this is that's

752
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 5: how everyone thinks.

753
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 2: That's how like that's how all writers think.

754
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 5: And her process I'm sure is like justice fraud with

755
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 5: like blockages and like not you know.

756
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: Well, and the way his and the other writer being

757
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,919
Speaker 4: his brother who has no is not self conscious at all,

758
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 4: ye like is not concerned. That's a fake care interception, Yeah,

759
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 4: I know, but it's it's there. There are other writers

760
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 4: in the movie, and the other writers do not have

761
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 4: the same Yes, they do not have self doubt around

762
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 4: their work. Yes, her problems are all like she's in

763
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 4: like a midlife crisis. Yes, so that is a little

764
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 4: bit different.

765
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 5: But it's but it's different. Like the movie is about

766
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 5: how he talks about the part of the movies about

767
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 5: how like we all come from the same place and

768
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 5: you know, the same cells.

769
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 2: We're all one.

770
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 5: A lot of movies that were made of these indie

771
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 5: movies where like I think like me and you and

772
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 5: everyone we know or kind of like that crash whatever,

773
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 5: like showing all these people have their own problems, but

774
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 5: he can't actually universalize his his condition, like he can't

775
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 5: represent other people.

776
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 4: Well because he's thinking why is it so easy for

777
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 4: other people?

778
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 2: But it's not he doesn't get it.

779
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true, but it does. It does sometimes appear

780
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 4: that way. And when you see someone who's like because

781
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 4: the thing that I did where I did connect to

782
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 4: what you were saying about, Like why is he still

783
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 4: likes so self loathing? This spot is when he goes

784
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 4: when he first sits down with the ex executive till

785
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 4: the Swinton and she's like, we're huge fans of you,

786
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 4: we love your shity. In that spot, I would not

787
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 4: because he's like, oh geez yeah, and like and then

788
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 4: you know, can't can't accept the compliment. And that's and

789
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 4: that's what if I was like with like a powerful

790
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 4: movie executive who was being like I think you're a genius,

791
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 4: I would be like, thank you, I'm glad someone recognized it.

792
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 4: And I would be like, finally, I've secretly been thinking

793
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 4: that and I've been wondering, like when is somebody with

794
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 4: a fucking brain gonna read some of my shit, ye,

795
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 4: like so that that would make me like very egocentric,

796
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 4: and even that like the set thing, I understand, the

797
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 4: like executive kissing your ass thing, I'm like, I'm a

798
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 4: sucker for that. Like when they're like, you're doing great,

799
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 4: I'm like, yes, I know so. And then he proceeds

800
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 4: to also, like in his perception, blow the meeting and

801
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 4: talk himself out of the job, like he portrays it

802
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 4: as he is saying everything she doesn't want to hear

803
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 4: and like ruining her lunch and the idea of the

804
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 4: movie that they have and gets the job anyway, So

805
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 4: it's like, you know, that's not how the conversation went

806
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 4: because when they cut away, he has the job as

807
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 4: so it didn't go as badly as he thinks. I

808
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 4: want to talk about when you say, like his brother

809
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 4: is a fake character, which he is, why do you

810
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 4: think it's an identical twin and why do you think

811
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 4: that character is in there? Like what is it a

812
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 4: symbol of he represents a kind of writer that I

813
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 4: hate and another person who I just like think exists

814
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 4: or is it like this is how I wish I

815
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 4: could be. This is like a part of me I

816
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 4: wish I could access, because he does ultimately write the

817
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 4: part of the movie that his brother writes, and it

818
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 4: is in the movie now he's in it wishing it

819
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 4: wasn't kind of but like, what do you what did

820
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 4: you think about that?

821
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 2: Like why is it?

822
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 4: Like?

823
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 5: But what I don't think it is you didn't even

824
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 5: bring this up, but like what in a lot of

825
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 5: those cases, it would be like, oh, these are two

826
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 5: different sides of myself that I'm illustrating as two different characters.

827
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 5: I don't think there's any anyone thinks that any version

828
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 5: of Donald is in Charlie Kaufman, Like this is like

829
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 5: I don't think that is a side of him.

830
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 4: Right right, It's no, I think it's not. But it's like,

831
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 4: is it, Like does he think it could be inside

832
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 4: of him and he can't access it? Like I see

833
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 4: people who are like so good at schmoozing with execs

834
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 4: or whatever. Yeah, and I know it would be helpful

835
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 4: for my career if I was better at that, and

836
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 4: I go and I've had the thought even like when

837
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 4: I used to commercial audition and people be like, you

838
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 4: just gotta not care, and I would go in and

839
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 4: like oh, Pally, for example, would like do exactly what

840
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 4: they told him not to do, like you would make

841
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 4: a choice, and they would go like, Okay, let's do

842
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 4: it again this time, don't do that, and he would

843
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 4: do it even more, and then he would get the job,

844
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 4: and I'll go, that's what I gotta do, just be

845
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 4: punk rock. I don't need the job, like I've got

846
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 4: to have that mentality. And then I would go in

847
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 4: and like try to do it and they would hate

848
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 4: me so much more than they had before, and I'd

849
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 4: be like, why did I do that? Then it's like

850
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 4: you're never gonna see that casting director again, yes, because

851
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 4: you tried to do what you've seen them like, but

852
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 4: they like it from that other person because they actually don't.

853
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 2: Care, right. I think it's two different things.

854
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 5: One is I think it is one of the things

855
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 5: in the movie that's the manifestation of a sort of

856
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 5: cliche like schlocky idea that comes up in the movie,

857
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 5: like the split personality thing.

858
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 4: Which then does become a movie that John Cusack from

859
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 4: being done about.

860
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 2: Because it did do it.

861
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, they did the movie.

862
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 5: And that was a thing at the time. And I

863
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 5: think like Memento was kind of the same idea, and

864
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 5: I think he's sort of playing off. It's one of

865
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 5: those things that's like, yeah, this is this is We've

866
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 5: seen this before. But I know that, like it's sort

867
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 5: of blinking at it. And I also think, yeah, it's

868
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 5: that just taking that writer that you're so resentful of

869
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 5: that it seems to be so easy for and is like,

870
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 5: you know, fucking and like, yeah, it's like this is

871
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 5: getting everything that that he wants and just turning it

872
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 5: into But like the fact that it's his twin brother,

873
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 5: isn't I think it was. Also it's a way to

874
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 5: get a good actor to do something. I think they're

875
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 5: just kind of the commercial elements of it.

876
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and and to talk about the acting for a minute,

877
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 4: like Nick Cage plays both those roles he does. I

878
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 4: mean when he's playing the sort of like brother who

879
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 4: has no internal monologue, he does things like says, I'm

880
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 4: going to push push in the bush. It's like pretending

881
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 4: hump the air. It's it's one of the craziest, funniest things.

882
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 4: But the thing that's wild in this movie is Meryl

883
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 4: Streep goes big. She plays on drugs. She wants to

884
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 4: commit a murder. Yes, Nick Cage plays small the whole time.

885
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 4: He yells at like the very end of the movie,

886
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 4: but it's like it's such an authentic like he's just

887
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 4: like stressed yell yeah. I mean, I don't know, I

888
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 4: can't really think of another performance where he never does

889
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 4: like yeah, one of his things. And I'm sure they exist,

890
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 4: but like this, this is the one that stands out

891
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 4: to me of he plays so small, he plays so real,

892
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 4: he plays like this kind of whatever, very anxious guy.

893
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,439
Speaker 4: And Streep is like when she plays that scene where

894
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 4: she first gets high and she's like she's taking these

895
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 4: long pauses and she's like I'm very happy now, yes,

896
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 4: and it's like it's so good and it's so fun,

897
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 4: and with her, I can't really think of a similar

898
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 4: performance either.

899
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 5: I didn't seen the movie in probably fifteen years, and

900
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 5: as that scene was playing out, I realized how much

901
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,959
Speaker 5: I remembered her line reading so specifically yeah, like because

902
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 5: they're they're so distinct. Weirdly, I remember, you know. This

903
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 5: was also the time in my life when I was

904
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 5: very focused on the Academy Awards, sure, and like what

905
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 5: was gonna happen? I remember the performance everyone was talking

906
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 5: about that time was Chris Cooper. He was very good

907
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 5: in the movie. But it's just like one of those

908
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 5: it sometimes happens with more supporting roles you lose sight of,

909
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 5: like the other the leads are doing.

910
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 6: And he was.

911
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 4: Being introduced in a way like he obviously has had

912
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 4: a great career. Yes, but it was like within a

913
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 4: string of three or four awesome performances by him that

914
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 4: were all different, and it was kind of like people

915
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 4: had just learned his name. That's right to say, like

916
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 4: Meryl Streep gives a great performance, was boring or Nicholas

917
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 4: Cage because they both had oscars, But that's partially why,

918
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 4: although when you watch it now, their performances I think

919
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 4: are both more impressive. Ye. And there's something similar to

920
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 4: like you say, like he really differentiates himself from Susan

921
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 4: Orlean and like that he's she doesn't have problems, but

922
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 4: they are mirrored. Because I guess this could be, you know,

923
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 4: possibly one of my smart thoughts. I will be talking

924
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 4: about smart thoughts on this podcast that I had about movies,

925
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 4: So I'll say this smart thought and then my other

926
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 4: big one, which is they are sort of intellectuals, like

927
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:39,479
Speaker 4: principled intellectuals who are being opened up by someone who

928
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 4: is very simple and like and not simple meaning like dumb,

929
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 4: but they you know, it's like Donald is teaching Charlie

930
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 4: like how to let go and love and write and

931
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 4: not judge, and she is learning from Laroche, who is

932
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 4: like this like kind of backwoods character with no front teeth,

933
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 4: who like walks around in a swamp, how to rediscover

934
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,919
Speaker 4: passion and caring about things and interest and like they are,

935
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 4: you know, they are having the same experience. That's the way,

936
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 4: and that is a way that he is adapting the book.

937
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 5: You know, the third act is you know, it's Donald's

938
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 5: version of the movie. But it also I think there's

939
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 5: a conversation that people remember most about the movie, like

940
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 5: philosophically that they're putting forward and it's kind of it

941
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 5: happens in its sort of a contrived moment where they're

942
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 5: like running from their hiding in a swamp and they're

943
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 5: trying not to get killed by Sue Leen and yeah,

944
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 5: and John la Roche.

945
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 4: Uncomplicated is what I wanted to call those characters. They

946
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 4: are not complicated characters. They are like, right down, what

947
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 4: you see is what you get. It is on the surface,

948
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 4: they are telling you what they are thinking. They are

949
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 4: not like pre judging any of their thoughts. They're just

950
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 4: going like this is what I think. Yes, and the

951
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 4: and Susan Orlean and dude are incapable of doing that.

952
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 4: And you see, Yeah when they even when she has

953
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 4: the dinner party and they're making fun of Laroche and

954
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 4: she has to go excuse herself to the bathroom, She's like,

955
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 4: this is who I'm pretending to be of, like someone

956
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 4: who would judge this stuff. But I actually think it's

957
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 4: like beautiful that, like his van's a mess.

958
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 5: That's a great scene and it's such a good realization

959
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:26,720
Speaker 5: of like kind of a crappy, like upper class dinner party.

960
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 5: You know who her husband is, No, I don't, Curtis Hansen.

961
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah.

962
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 5: So there's a lot that I think that most people

963
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 5: remember is when Donald was talking about you.

964
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 4: You're getting to Yes, you're getting to the scene which

965
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 4: is my this is my wish I wrote it. You

966
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 4: are what you love, not what loves you.

967
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: Yes.

968
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's so I want to talk about. Because there's

969
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 4: a show about writing of movies. I want to have

970
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 4: a segment called wish I wrote it, where we picked

971
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 4: the part of the movie that you're the most jealous

972
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 4: of when you watch it, and it's like it's not

973
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,359
Speaker 4: even a specific line in it, although I think the

974
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 4: line that I find more affecting even than like you're

975
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 4: you're not you're You are what you love, not what

976
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 4: loves you is when Charlie's telling his brother about a

977
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 4: time that he watched him get flirted with by a

978
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 4: popular girl at high school and that he was happy

979
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 4: when he walked away she made fun of him, and

980
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 4: he goes like, you're so clueless, like you don't know

981
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 4: what anyone thinks about you. I have to think about

982
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 4: what everyone thinks about me. You're not burdened with that.

983
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 4: You had no idea, and his brother goes, I knew

984
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 4: they were making fun of me. I could hear them.

985
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 4: And he's like them, why are you still happy? And

986
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:46,439
Speaker 4: he says, because it was mine. He loved the love

987
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 4: I felt for her. Girl was mine and it wasn't

988
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 4: It wasn't hers to take away. It was like a

989
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 4: good feeling I had about something or someone, and like,

990
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 4: that's up to me. And then that goes on a

991
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 4: little bit in a life. You are what you love,

992
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 4: not what loves you, and Charlie starts crying and says

993
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 4: thank you, and yes, cannot put into words what he's

994
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 4: thanking him for, but he's been kind of opened up

995
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 4: by this and that is that's the moment that stuck

996
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 4: with me for sure. Yes, and yeah, it takes place

997
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 4: within the like swamp gun chase, car chase thing that

998
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 4: is like the fakest part of the movie, but it's

999
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,240
Speaker 4: got this like real sentiment.

1000
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 5: In it, and that's the vulnerable thing, like that the

1001
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 5: place that you watching it that the writer puts you in,

1002
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 5: because I also think that that sentiment is very meaningful

1003
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 5: and I think it's like a very well written sequence.

1004
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 5: But it does happen in this part of the movie

1005
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 5: that is like supposed to be bad and it kind

1006
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 5: of makes you wonder.

1007
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 4: It's another self protection thing, yeah, where it's like, well,

1008
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 4: this is the corny part of the movie exactly.

1009
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 5: Is that meant to be like something that a bad

1010
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 5: movie would do. Stop down the chase sequence, for like when.

1011
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 4: They're talking too loud, like they're getting there's people right

1012
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 4: behind them with guns and they're like not whispering.

1013
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 5: Like yes, and so it would be very easy like

1014
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 5: you talk to him and be like Oh, yeah, I

1015
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 5: guess I'm glad you liked that I actually wrote that

1016
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 5: because I thought it was so stupid.

1017
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 4: I was, yeah, I was making fun of how movies

1018
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 4: will have this emotional message.

1019
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: That's awesome that you liked it, though, Like.

1020
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 4: I totally believe that. But it's like, you know, I'm

1021
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 4: a sucker. Yeah, Like like I'm a little bit of

1022
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 4: a softie. And so I was like, yeah, this is

1023
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 4: even if he was writing it to be like this

1024
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 4: is what a shitty writer would right in the spot,

1025
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 4: within the context of the film. I'm jealous of that

1026
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 4: existing where it does, because it is, you know, it

1027
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 4: is this big third act moment. It does give the

1028
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,919
Speaker 4: full message and it does, you know. And he says

1029
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 4: it into his little tape recorder later right like he's

1030
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 4: he tells me that, you know, and Charlie tries to

1031
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 4: thank him, but he can't put it into words, like

1032
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 4: he's having it as the idea for the end of

1033
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 4: the movie that he thinks is good in the movie too.

1034
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 5: And they end with happy Together, and so you're like, oh,

1035
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 5: that was the song that Donald wanted to put in

1036
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 5: the movie. Yeah, the movie does I think successfully have it.

1037
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 5: But ways totally. They don't go into full parody mode

1038
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 5: in that third act. It's not like that like NTSF

1039
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 5: SUV type, Like, yeah, the style of the movie doesn't

1040
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 5: change so much, No, that it pulls you all the

1041
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 5: way out of it and now it's it's just like

1042
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 5: a bit.

1043
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 4: But here's my other big smart thought. Okay, and tell

1044
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 4: me if this is obvious. But you know, Laroche is

1045
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 4: giving these speeches about like the bee's purpose in life,

1046
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 4: like it goes and like mates with the flower, and

1047
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 4: this is how life continues by doing it's like singularly

1048
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 4: focused thing and you you have to do the thing

1049
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 4: you're supposed to do. And that's what we have adapted

1050
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 4: to and evolved into. And that like you know, Charlie

1051
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 4: Kaufman or Coffin's learning I have to I should be writing,

1052
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 4: like I should be writing the movie. That's that's my

1053
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 4: bee thing, like I'm supposed to or I should be

1054
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 4: falling in love or whatever it is. But the movie itself,

1055
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 4: the movie that you are watching mm hm. By having

1056
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 4: that like shit he sequence at the end. During the

1057
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 4: course of the movie, it adapts to survive in the

1058
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 4: Hollywood ecosystem, like part of the idea of the movie

1059
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 4: is that in Hollywood you cannot have a movie. When

1060
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 4: he pitches Till the Swinton at the beginning, like it's

1061
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 4: not gonna have like a story or a plot or

1062
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 4: like I don't want like a fucking car chase or

1063
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 4: a gone or like any of this fake bullshit, and

1064
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 4: by both Robert McKee and Till the Switt and he's

1065
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 4: told like, well, that's not a movie then, like you

1066
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 4: can't have a movie that is that the movie evolves

1067
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 4: and adapts and acquires these qualities that will allow it

1068
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 4: to be released in theaters because the environment in which

1069
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 4: it lives needs that to survive, and that's why you're

1070
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,920
Speaker 4: seeing the movie. Otherwise it would have died. And I

1071
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,040
Speaker 4: was like, so, it's like it's adaptation. It's an adaptation

1072
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 4: of a book. They're talking about how flowers adapt, how

1073
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 4: animals adapt. He's you know, Laroche helps her adapt, he

1074
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 4: Donald helps him adapt, but also the movie itself adapts,

1075
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 4: And I thought that that was cool. That was my

1076
00:57:59,280 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 4: smart thought.

1077
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, the think about what I wish I had written again,

1078
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 5: I think it is kind of impossible to like if

1079
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:09,919
Speaker 5: you weren't working in that if you're working that time

1080
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 5: I'm sure every fucking writer who was like in the

1081
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 5: business at that time, I was like, fuck, this is

1082
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 5: something I could have done, Yeah the entire pres and

1083
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 5: would have loved to do because it's about me and

1084
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 5: my shit, and everyone loves it like they must have

1085
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 5: hated him when this movie came out. I cannot imagine

1086
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 5: how jealous literally every other writer in the industry was

1087
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 5: TV because he got to make the lead to movies.

1088
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 5: Every other screenwriter so jealous that he got to put

1089
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 5: this out. So but I don't think that jealousy can

1090
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 5: move backwards, like there's nothing at the time we were

1091
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 5: working that you could have done that was reminiscent of

1092
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 5: that because it had been done so extensively by this movie.

1093
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 5: I just really like the The one joke I really

1094
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 5: like is he says there are no movies about flowers,

1095
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 5: and Donald says, what about flowers?

1096
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 2: For al n on them He says, that's about flowers

1097
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: in his movie.

1098
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I never saw it.

1099
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I never never saw it, because.

1100
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 4: He's even been told it's not a movie.

1101
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 2: Yeah that's right.

1102
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, sorry, I never saw it.

1103
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 5: Yes, I mean that that that that just hold back

1104
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 5: and forth is really really funny playing so so so fast. Yeah,

1105
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 5: I think I've maybe said on my really smart thoughts

1106
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 5: about the movie.

1107
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 4: The yeah, the only so it is about like whatever,

1108
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 4: Hollywood and all this stuff, and so try to inject

1109
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 4: some some personal stories into this. And there his agent

1110
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 4: is a very funny character. It's Ron Livingston, I do believe.

1111
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 4: So he has a meeting in his agent's office and

1112
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 4: twice his agent looks at women passing by in the

1113
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 4: window and mentions either that he has or wants to

1114
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 4: fuck them up the ass. Yes, And I just can

1115
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 4: guarantee you that one of Charlie Kauffman's agents at some

1116
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 4: point said something about fucking someone up the ass about

1117
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 4: like either somebody walked by at a restaurant or something.

1118
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 4: Because it's so specific, and he does it twice, and

1119
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 4: it is so kind of jarring when he does it

1120
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 4: that he like thinks it's cool. And I do think,

1121
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 4: you know, we have some agents are really good, some

1122
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 4: are really bad, but there is sort of a culture

1123
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 4: there where they try. I had one agent who I

1124
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 4: maybe went out to meals with him like three times,

1125
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 4: and every time at some point, who'd be like, you know, fighting,

1126
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 4: do you like to fight, given a fighting training, and

1127
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 4: then I would be like, ah, not really, and he

1128
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 4: would proceed to explain all of his fighting training and

1129
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 4: then revealed to me that he was actually at some

1130
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 4: point studied like a almost like a top.

1131
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 6: Secret martial art where he could kill people, which like

1132
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 6: so could I like you would choke them?

1133
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 4: Like please don't, but like so that was like this

1134
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 4: very macho kind of broy thing that he wanted to

1135
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 4: get down on. And I'm sure that this is Charlie's

1136
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 4: version of that, where he's like, I don't want to

1137
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 4: talk about this.

1138
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 5: Like yeah, And I think that has changed a lot

1139
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:23,959
Speaker 5: as well in terms of like.

1140
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 2: Who is in those roles.

1141
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 5: I think that's what agents mostly were like, and agents

1142
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 5: that were female were kind of evaluated by whether or

1143
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 5: not they could.

1144
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:33,959
Speaker 2: Hang in that world.

1145
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, can you get in the boys club?

1146
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 2: Yes? But my agent.

1147
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 5: Was or I haven't written anything in a very long time,

1148
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 5: and I think I'm still she's still technically my agent, but.

1149
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 2: Like very smart, not like that at all.

1150
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 5: And I think like she's not an agent anymore now,

1151
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 5: she's like but yeah, and Adrian, but I think I

1152
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 5: still my technical would be right there.

1153
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 4: I'm not probably yes, I think you are.

1154
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 5: And it's something about the movie in journal. It's what

1155
01:01:57,080 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 5: I was talking about with what he thinks. Susan Orlean's

1156
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 5: process is like is a very much like a guy's

1157
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 5: idea of what like someone who does his job but

1158
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 5: is a woman does it? Like just this idea that

1159
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 5: oh they just like much more discipline. They just like

1160
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 5: kind of go to work. They don't have the same

1161
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 5: level of insecurity.

1162
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, everything's neat and tidy, and like the office is nice. Yeah,

1163
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 4: it's like pretty you know, it's pretty easy to write,

1164
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 4: and like they kind of think these guys around them

1165
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 4: are crazy. Their husband's a little annoying.

1166
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's.

1167
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 5: Basically what like Charlie Coffin is what then became later

1168
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 5: like the hot mess like Amy Schumer type character, like

1169
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 5: showing what Like Susan Orleane's character does not really have

1170
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 5: flaws or the flaws and the third act are really

1171
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 5: like made up. She has like desire and longing, but

1172
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 5: like otherwise, she.

1173
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 4: Wishes she was more like activated and a bigger participant

1174
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 4: in life rather than an observer.

1175
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 5: But it's I mean, we talked about like Garden State

1176
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 5: at the same time, like these indie movies, these by

1177
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 5: mail auteurs, and like what they were kind of like

1178
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 5: putting women forward.

1179
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 2: It is all like through their idea.

1180
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 4: Well, I mean also he's and he's acknowledging like so,

1181
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 4: Charlie Kaufman masturbates to three women in Yes. The first

1182
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 4: that we see is a waitress that is nice to him.

1183
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 4: The second that we see, I think is the executive

1184
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 4: that he has lunch with. At the beginning, he's imagining

1185
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 4: her loving his script and it makes him so horny.

1186
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 4: And then the third time and final time, it is

1187
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 4: to the author of the book that he is adapting

1188
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 4: the book jacket and he turns and he turns to

1189
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 4: the book jacket after he's finished masturbating to her in

1190
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 4: the film that you are watching that wasn't for a book,

1191
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 4: and he says, I hope I don't disappoint you. And

1192
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 4: that is insane. And she, I believe, did reject this

1193
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 4: movie being made. She had approval over the movie being made.

1194
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,400
Speaker 4: When she read it, she was like, do not make

1195
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 4: this movie? Yeah, do not want this Yeah, at which

1196
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 4: I completely understand.

1197
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 2: Thought it would ruin her career.

1198
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 4: It is interesting in a way, like I just feel

1199
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 4: like I'm not saying this is good or bad. That

1200
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,479
Speaker 4: would not be in a movie. Now, No, I would

1201
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 4: know that would not happen in a movie.

1202
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 5: I think that's probably true, or I think and like

1203
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 5: it did end up being what she is. I mean,

1204
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 5: she's continued to write all along, but it's what she's

1205
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 5: best known as. And we would see her sometimes at

1206
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 5: Earwolf Studios when we used to host a podcast on

1207
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 5: the same network, and I would always think, like, oh,

1208
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 5: Susan Relief. It's like for adaptation, Yeah, this is really exciting,

1209
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 5: you know, I think today this is probably this is

1210
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 5: a good thing, like the movie would actually like if

1211
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 5: you were to do that with a male character, you

1212
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 5: would also shift some of those qualities equalities that I

1213
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 5: think are more accurate to the female character as well,

1214
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 5: you know, like showing them being like what we see

1215
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 5: is more traditionally male flaws, but that women also like

1216
01:05:10,440 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 5: have more on screen. Now, Like, if that's the way

1217
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 5: you would kind of balance that out. I think if

1218
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 5: you were to do that today.

1219
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, well, we're just about done talking about this movie.

1220
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 4: This has been good. I have one more sort of

1221
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 4: just unrelated, but I just think it's a funny story.

1222
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 4: Agent story, which is not from a writing agent. It

1223
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 4: was from when I was acting and I was starting

1224
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 4: to write, but I had no work. I had moved

1225
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 4: to LA for a writing job. I wrote for this

1226
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:45,439
Speaker 4: MTV show. I was then done and kind of trying

1227
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 4: to figure out what to do next. And I remember

1228
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 4: and I was we had the improv show Shitty Jobs

1229
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 4: going at UCB. It was, I would say, and I

1230
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 4: guess people can fact at the time, other than I

1231
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 4: guess ASCAT, which is like the flagship, most famous UCB show,

1232
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:10,520
Speaker 4: probably the most popular improv show at the UCB Theater,

1233
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 4: which is arguably, you know, one of the best comedy

1234
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 4: theaters in the country. I was doing improv there. It

1235
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:21,760
Speaker 4: was sold out for the month the second It went

1236
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 4: up every day. And I had an agent and I

1237
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 4: was so I was doing improv, I would say, at

1238
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 4: a high level. And they were holding auditions for MTV's

1239
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 4: Disaster Date and they needed improvisers. And I called my

1240
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 4: agent and I said, Hey, every improviser I know is

1241
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 4: going in for this. Can you get me in for this?

1242
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 4: And she was like, I don't know, Sean, you gotta

1243
01:06:50,720 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 4: be funny to do those shows. I mean, like funny, funny. Well,

1244
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 4: I think I might be maybe you could come to

1245
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 4: see my show, like, because I do an improv show,

1246
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 4: and you could tell them, like I've seen him, he

1247
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 4: does impro You could tell me he does a popular

1248
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 4: they might know uc B. And she went like, when's

1249
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:17,840
Speaker 4: the show And I was like, well, it's it's at

1250
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 4: eleven o'clock and she went eleven am maybe, and I

1251
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 4: went no, no, it's at eleven pm. And you went, oh, Sean,

1252
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 4: that's too late.

1253
01:07:29,800 --> 01:07:30,640
Speaker 2: That is very late.

1254
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 4: Oh sorry, life starts at eleven thirty.

1255
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 5: That's also that's a level of professional disgrace that even

1256
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 5: Charlie Kaufman, who who hates himself, believes that kind of

1257
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 5: thing is happening to him all the time. But it's

1258
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 5: so disrespectful that he doesn't even have characters talking to

1259
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 5: him that way.

1260
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 4: And she doesn't want to lob in the call that

1261
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 4: she doesn't want to burn the bridge with the MTV

1262
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,280
Speaker 4: Disaster Day people by sending them a fucking dud like

1263
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 4: b Yeah. Yeah. So, as I said, when you when

1264
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 4: you are a writer, when you are on set, uh,

1265
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 4: they finish filming and they turn and they say you

1266
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 4: got anything, And so I say to you, Hayes you're good.

1267
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 4: We good to move on.

1268
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:18,840
Speaker 2: I'm good. Good to do next episode? Yeah, okay good.

1269
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,080
Speaker 2: That is also what I always say, Set, I never

1270
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: have anything moving on now