Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mark mass Show,
Speaker 1: where we talk about, of course, the decentralized revolution, the
Speaker 1: way the world is changing right before very eyes, and
Speaker 1: we look at it through the lens of politics, finance,
Speaker 1: and technology. And of course that technology that changes the
Speaker 1: world is bitcoin, the decentralized technology. And you know, I
Speaker 1: like to bring to you some late breaking news and
Speaker 1: some education to change your the way that you think
Speaker 1: about things, but also some some guests so you don't
Speaker 1: have to listen to me all the time. And I
Speaker 1: have a returning guest. I have Dennis Porter in the
Speaker 1: studio with me today. He is the CEO and co
Speaker 1: founder of the Satoshi Action Fund. He's the president and
Speaker 1: founder of Satoshi Action Education as well, which of course
Speaker 1: are two things that I like.
Speaker 2: I like.
Speaker 1: I like education and specifically education that leads into action.
Speaker 1: So anyway, Dennis, thanks so much for joining me today.
Speaker 2: Hey, Mark, glad to be back on the show. And
Speaker 2: I'm going to have to use your line more often.
Speaker 2: I'll be like education that leads to action. That's our
Speaker 2: that's our new slogan.
Speaker 1: It should be, you know, I talk about all the time.
Speaker 1: I actually I said it on an earlier segment, I
Speaker 1: say that, you know, we've been told that knowledge is power,
Speaker 1: but that's not true. Only knowledge put into action is power.
Speaker 1: Otherwise I think ignorance is bliss. Rather just take the
Speaker 1: blue pill and not even know, right, So, yeah, only
Speaker 1: only only actionable knowledge, knowledge put into action is power. Right.
Speaker 1: But anyway, you know, Dennis, I know, you know, we've
Speaker 1: had you on before and you were involved on the
Speaker 1: on the politics side for any number of things, and
Speaker 1: then you kind of put together this action fund really
Speaker 1: kind of helping to educate and and and take you know,
Speaker 1: action into the you know, kind of political realm. And
Speaker 1: we're kind of at this point where, you know, specifically
Speaker 1: specifically around bitcoin, kind of like left it alone for
Speaker 1: a decade, you know, until it started kind of getting
Speaker 1: big enough and starting to show up on people's radars,
Speaker 1: and then politicians were trying to kind of figure out
Speaker 1: what they want to do about this, and now it
Speaker 1: seems to like really escalate where it really seems to
Speaker 1: me like the Biden regime that we have in place today,
Speaker 1: which would include you know, Elizabeth Warren and Gary Gensler
Speaker 1: are really anti bitcoin, anti crypto, and almost even anti
Speaker 1: tech overall. Do you see that like really coming from
Speaker 1: from you know, kind of that group, like there's really
Speaker 1: like this anti innovation, anti tech movement.
Speaker 2: I mean, you definitely do see some components of that
Speaker 2: taking place. I would say the majority of the anti
Speaker 2: digital asset let's say broadly, because it really is kind
Speaker 2: of the way that they view the space. The anti
Speaker 2: digital asset bent is coming from the Council of Economic Advisors,
Speaker 2: but also from Liz Warren campaign, where she has a
Speaker 2: lot of ties. And I do believe that the Biden
Speaker 2: administration broadly does have a very negative tone towards bitcoin.
Speaker 2: We have seen though, I will say with Gary Gensler,
Speaker 2: although he is very anti crypto at this point, seemingly
Speaker 2: going after exchanges with no sort of restriction on what
Speaker 2: he's willing to do, willing to go after you know,
Speaker 2: XRP and various crypto assets, but has pretty much left
Speaker 2: Bitcoin alone. And you know, some of a crypto side
Speaker 2: of dial will say, well, you know, just you wait
Speaker 2: till Gary Ginsler comes for you. But he's been pretty
Speaker 2: clear about his viewpoint that he believes that bitcoin is
Speaker 2: a commodity. And the CFTC I believe is also in
Speaker 2: alignment with that, so we might be narrow as narrowly
Speaker 2: escaping that bullet. The biggest area where I do see
Speaker 2: the most concern is not necessarily on the sec CFTC
Speaker 2: front for bitcoin. It is actually, in fact for the
Speaker 2: majority of bitcoin businesses and prolific individuals within the bitcoin
Speaker 2: space that are getting limited in their ability to access banking.
Speaker 2: We've seen banks all across this country not only prevent
Speaker 2: bitcoiners and bitcoin based companies from having access to financial
Speaker 2: services and we're just talking about basic banking services at
Speaker 2: this point, but they've also kicked them out on top
Speaker 2: of that. I was just talking to a gentleman today
Speaker 2: who said he went through thirty different banks before he
Speaker 2: was finally accepted. I spoke to one of the largest
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining companies in the entire world, and they said
Speaker 2: they were at a bank for six years and then
Speaker 2: they got kicked out. So this is the air where
Speaker 2: I think we need to have the most focused and
Speaker 2: not be so concerned. If you're a bitcoiner, if you're
Speaker 2: a crypto person, you should care a lot about Gary Gensler.
Speaker 2: But as someone who's focused on bitcoin, I'm more so
Speaker 2: worried about this banking issue, and I think it's something
Speaker 2: that we should pay a lot of attention to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I can. I can give first on
Speaker 1: account of that. You know, we've launched the Bitcoin Opportunity
Speaker 1: Fund and we we've we've successfully completed our first round
Speaker 1: of financing, which is which went pretty well. Shout out
Speaker 1: to Bigcoin Opportunity Fund. If you're interested investing through the
Speaker 1: bitcoin ecosystem, check it out Bitcoin Opportunity Dot Fund and
Speaker 1: get more info there. But you know, because we have
Speaker 1: bitcoin in the name, we were having problems get ban accounts
Speaker 1: and like we had commitments of people ready to wire
Speaker 1: money over and all of a sudden we can't get
Speaker 1: the bank. And we're like, dang, why didn't we just
Speaker 1: why did we have to put bitcoin in the name?
Speaker 1: We should have put We're just a we're just an
Speaker 1: investment fund, right, But because bitcoin was in the name,
Speaker 1: we had a big problem. We finally found a bank,
Speaker 1: but it was it was we had to go through
Speaker 1: quite a few it was difficult. So I definitely see that.
Speaker 1: But you know, you talked about you know, Gary Gensler specifically,
Speaker 1: which of course I did as well, But so so
Speaker 1: do you see it really as like this, I guess
Speaker 1: what I was trying to ask, is it really like
Speaker 1: this attack on digital assets? Are they trying to protect money,
Speaker 1: trying to protect the digital dollar or the dollar or
Speaker 1: do you think it's also hostile to tech in general?
Speaker 1: And I say that because of what we see happening
Speaker 1: like with a restrict Act and you know, TikTok bill
Speaker 1: and things like that.
Speaker 2: To your point there, I think just broadly we see
Speaker 2: anti tech bent not only in the Democrat Party, we
Speaker 2: also see it happening in the Republican Party. I mean,
Speaker 2: there are at the state level, which is where we
Speaker 2: spend a very large majority of our time, there are
Speaker 2: several states which have moved to ban government officials from
Speaker 2: accessing TikTok, from using TikTok, and I think that you're
Speaker 2: going to see that sort of activity pick up. It's
Speaker 2: really become one of those things where it's viewed as
Speaker 2: somewhat of a national security threat. And generally speaking on
Speaker 2: national security threats, not always, but generally you do see
Speaker 2: Republicans and Democrats working across the aisle on these issues.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately, in this sort of situation, that national security
Speaker 2: threat is in a position now where it seems like
Speaker 2: it's going to be limiting the access to innovation, limiting
Speaker 2: the access to tech. But ultimately, you know, we do
Speaker 2: need to be careful. We do need to be careful
Speaker 2: about apps that are wholly controlled by the CCP, like TikTok,
Speaker 2: and making sure that we are paying attention to what's
Speaker 2: going on, because we also know that TikTok collects a
Speaker 2: lot of information that's on its users, so something to
Speaker 2: be cautious of. I don't like necessarily that in kind
Speaker 2: of the effort to go after things like TikTok through
Speaker 2: the restrict Act, that we are kind of ultimately broadly
Speaker 2: hurting other things, other types of innovation, other types of technology.
Speaker 2: So we have to be very careful in the way
Speaker 2: that we go after bad actors in the space. We
Speaker 2: can't just take, you know, throw the baby out with
Speaker 2: the bathwater. I don't know the specific in the details
Speaker 2: of how this would directly hurt Bitcoin. I have heard
Speaker 2: some good arguments on it, but I don't think it's
Speaker 2: the thing that we should be the most focused on
Speaker 2: right now within the space.
Speaker 1: I just didn't think back to this quote from Christine Leguard,
Speaker 1: who said that innovation is a threat to our financial stability,
Speaker 1: I saw that a couple of years ago. It is
Speaker 1: just always stuck with me and and and I guess
Speaker 1: that's true. Innovation is a threat to the financial stability,
Speaker 1: but the it's really not the financial stabilities financial monopoly
Speaker 1: that they control, right, So innovation is disruptive and and
Speaker 1: and innovation is always inherently disruptive. I want to go
Speaker 1: back to, you know, back to Social Action Fund and
Speaker 1: I know you guys help put forward the right to
Speaker 1: mind bill. Give me, give me a minute, minute a
Speaker 1: half summary of what that right to my bill is,
Speaker 1: what you're trying to do with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Mark. So what was happening across the country
Speaker 2: is we saw varying types of discrimination against bitcoin miners,
Speaker 2: generally rooted in a misunderstanding of the technology. People often
Speaker 2: hear about bitcoin mining and they either think, you know,
Speaker 2: one of two things or both that this is a scam,
Speaker 2: that this is a you know, Ponzi scheme, why are
Speaker 2: we letting this thing use up all of our energy,
Speaker 2: or the other one is that they have been misinformed
Speaker 2: to believe that bitcoin mining is bad for the environment,
Speaker 2: which is an argument in fact that we are doing
Speaker 2: a much better job of winning these days but unfortunately,
Speaker 2: there are still a lot of individuals out there who
Speaker 2: still believe that bitcoin is a scam or that it's
Speaker 2: bad for the environment. And so at the local level,
Speaker 2: we're seeing attacks on bitcoin mining, everything ranging from changing
Speaker 2: calling emergency meetings and changing zoning rules and zoning laws,
Speaker 2: which led in the County of Missoula to a twenty
Speaker 2: million dollars bitcoin mining operation going completely bankrupt. We also
Speaker 2: see in the state of Idaho they regulators they're agreed
Speaker 2: with an increase in power pricing for bitcoin miners, which
Speaker 2: is fairly unheard of generally speaking, in the world of
Speaker 2: energy in the United States, you are not allowed through
Speaker 2: the public Utility Commissions, which are the state regulators when
Speaker 2: it comes to energy, you're not allowed to discriminate against
Speaker 2: different groups. But they did the attempt by Idaho Power.
Speaker 2: They were trying to raise rates on all the miners
Speaker 2: broadly within their footprint. It was much more aggressive and
Speaker 2: so fortunately it got tampered down and it was much
Speaker 2: more of a reasonable increase, but still we did see
Speaker 2: that type of discrimination. We also see frivolous noise complaints
Speaker 2: taking place all across the country, and and so the
Speaker 2: bill that we created it just protects in law bitcoiners
Speaker 2: and bitcoin minors from those sorts of attacks. And also
Speaker 2: with it just so happened in the state of Montana,
Speaker 2: we did pass a law.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want that bill. I want to hear more
Speaker 1: about that way specifically, but I want to come back
Speaker 1: to that in a second. But if you're just tune
Speaker 1: in listening to the markmas Show, I'm sitting down with
Speaker 1: Dennis Porter and studio from Satoshi Action Fund to find
Speaker 1: out what's going on in the political world in regards
Speaker 1: to money and bitcoin and technology. We're back with more
Speaker 1: in a minute. Don't go away, We're back, all right,
Speaker 1: Welcome back. If you're just tune in, you're listening to
Speaker 1: the Mark Moss Show. I'm in studio with Dennis Porter
Speaker 1: from Satoshi Action Fund and we're discussing what's going on
Speaker 1: in the political landscape in regards to bitcoin and technology
Speaker 1: and journal you know, Dennis, before that break, you were
Speaker 1: just talking about, you know, some of the things that
Speaker 1: you guys have been doing, and specifically you were talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the education that you've been doing
Speaker 1: to try to counteract some misinformation that's out there. And
Speaker 1: then you're kind of going into an actual bill, So
Speaker 1: not just the education, but the action of what you're
Speaker 1: doing and submitting the bill. I want to I want
Speaker 1: to find out about the bill, and I have some
Speaker 1: questions about that, but before we do, just kind of
Speaker 1: going back to the education side for a second. You know,
Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of miss I mean, they they,
Speaker 1: you know, they the mainstream media accuses everyone else of misinformation.
Speaker 1: It seems like they're the ones putting out the misinformation
Speaker 1: when they constantly put out misleading stories sort of like
Speaker 1: what the New York Times have have done in Texas
Speaker 1: and so is that kind of what you're trying to counteract,
Speaker 1: so to speak, right, kind of going to these politicians
Speaker 1: who are kind of getting this misinformation and trying to
Speaker 1: kind of educate them on you know, what's really going
Speaker 1: on there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and you're right, we do see sort of
Speaker 2: misinformation campaigns taking place across the country. When it comes
Speaker 2: to bitcoin mining, it is the you know, unfortunately, there
Speaker 2: is somewhat of an incentive in the media to attack
Speaker 2: bitcoin and bitcoin mining. You can get a lot of
Speaker 2: clicks and a lot of views, but unfortunately, oftentimes we
Speaker 2: see just flat out total misinformation with regards to how
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining works and the amount of energy that it
Speaker 2: is consuming. So we are educating on a regular basis.
Speaker 2: But one of the other components that I think is
Speaker 2: really critical to changing hearts and minds on this issue
Speaker 2: is not just going out and saying, hey, well, actually
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining does this for the environment, or it's really
Speaker 2: good at balancing the grid, but turning around and also
Speaker 2: providing research for the space. You know, we talked about
Speaker 2: Satotia Action Fund, but we also have satoti Action Education
Speaker 2: as you mentioned earlier in the show, and that entity
Speaker 2: is wholly focused on providing better research for the bitcoin
Speaker 2: mining industry and not just some white papers. We're also
Speaker 2: talking about peer reviewed research, which some people might have
Speaker 2: a problem with, but it is the best system that
Speaker 2: we have, you know, It's the good line for it
Speaker 2: is it's the worst system except for all the other ones. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but the peer review process what it does is it
Speaker 2: puts it puts the people that are on the fence
Speaker 2: or might be opposed to bitcoin mining back into the
Speaker 2: thinking cabinet and having to think about what are they
Speaker 2: going to do with this issue and is it something
Speaker 2: that actually can provide value because right now they're sitting
Speaker 2: around saying this thing is destroying the environment, it's bad
Speaker 2: for the grid, it's hurting the planet, it's soaking up
Speaker 2: all the energy. What are we going to do about it?
Speaker 2: We want them to go back to the drawing board
Speaker 2: and start thinking about how maybe there are some things
Speaker 2: that they don't like about bitcoin mining. Let's say that
Speaker 2: you're like on the fringes when it comes to the
Speaker 2: environmental issue, and you're very very very staunchly opposed to
Speaker 2: using fossil fuels. Well, great, you can use bitcoin mining
Speaker 2: to advance renewable energy across this country. In fact, it
Speaker 2: may very well be one of the most important technologies
Speaker 2: for that, and we want to provide the research to
Speaker 2: be able to back up those claims.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a great point, and it's something
Speaker 1: that I've been thinking a lot about lately, Dennis, you know,
Speaker 1: where like it's and to be honest, it's maybe the
Speaker 1: first time I've publicly been talking about this on any
Speaker 1: of my outlets, but it's really been making me rethink
Speaker 1: even my content right where like I was, I think
Speaker 1: it might have been. You know, it's just like in life,
Speaker 1: we go where our focus is, like where focuses our
Speaker 1: energy goes kind of thing, right, and like are we
Speaker 1: focused on fighting or are we focused on building? Right?
Speaker 1: Are we focused on holding back or where we want
Speaker 1: to go? And like, you know, I think when I
Speaker 1: was listening to you talk, it was kind of making
Speaker 1: me think through that on my own, where like are
Speaker 1: we trying to like constantly fight against the government to
Speaker 1: prevent them or could we just focus on building these
Speaker 1: brand new renewable energy grids? Like can we go and
Speaker 1: help them accomplish what they want with this technology? And
Speaker 1: it's just the difference of that that focus, right, Like
Speaker 1: it's a positive focus where we're building out competing, Right,
Speaker 1: good ideas typically win because they're better, right, And so
Speaker 1: like if you can say, hey, look here's how you
Speaker 1: can scale a renewable energy grid. You can offset some
Speaker 1: of the costs with some bitcoin mining, and they look
Speaker 1: at it more as like a tool as opposed to
Speaker 1: like bitcoins specifically. I don't know, is that maybe how
Speaker 1: you sort of present it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, we definitely talk about bitcoin mining as a tool.
Speaker 2: We talk about it as a piece of energy infrastructure.
Speaker 2: And I do agree with your statement about the fact
Speaker 2: that we need to be able to go in and
Speaker 2: build these things is just as important, if not more important,
Speaker 2: than trying to win the argument. You know, if we
Speaker 2: just sit around on Twitter and we just submit, you know,
Speaker 2: new blog posts to our blog and talking about how
Speaker 2: great bitcoin is and bitcoin mining is, that's good, that's great.
Speaker 2: We need that sort of education out there for the public.
Speaker 2: But as it pertains to policy makers, it's really important
Speaker 2: that we build the things that we're talking about so
Speaker 2: that we have evidence to show that these things are
Speaker 2: taking place. And that's happening at a rapid pace. You know,
Speaker 2: in the last five years, we went from oh, maybe
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining could be good to balancing the grid to
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining is actually balancing in the grid all over
Speaker 2: the country, particularly in Texas where during a winter storm there,
Speaker 2: bitcoin miners were able to deliver up to fifteen hundred
Speaker 2: megawatts of power back to the grid in the middle
Speaker 2: of an emergency. And just to put it in a context,
Speaker 2: fifteen hundred megawats of power is enough power to heat
Speaker 2: one point five million small homes, and that's in the
Speaker 2: middle of an emergency when no one else is wanting
Speaker 2: to get up their power. So we just need to
Speaker 2: keep building, keep proving, and eventually that also helps us
Speaker 2: in our arguments when it comes to convincing our world
Speaker 2: leaders to adopt bitcoin and bitcoin mining.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to go back, you know, I
Speaker 1: want to go back to the bill, the bill that
Speaker 1: you submitted, because I think about like kind of going
Speaker 1: back to like focus on the good, right, and like
Speaker 1: you know, the the power that you know, money has
Speaker 1: in this realm.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So for example, if these big energy companies, these big
Speaker 1: power companies can go dang, you know, using this technology,
Speaker 1: not even thinking about any of ours a bitcoin, but
Speaker 1: using this technology, we can not lose billions of dollars
Speaker 1: now right now we have a new revenue source. Then
Speaker 1: like they would be motivate to then go push it
Speaker 1: on the political front themselves, like hey we need this.
Speaker 1: And then like I think back to like the bill,
Speaker 1: and this is where maybe you can kind of correct
Speaker 1: me a little bit. But it seems like most lawmakers,
Speaker 1: the legislators that go into office don't actually create any bills.
Speaker 1: They don't create the laws, right, Like they co sponsor bills, right,
Speaker 1: they co sponsor the bills. But where do the bills
Speaker 1: come from? The bills come from like the lobby groups,
Speaker 1: I'm guessing, right, So like maybe one correct me on that,
Speaker 1: but too, if we can get those paragrades companies to
Speaker 1: go like, dang, this is a tool that we really want.
Speaker 1: It can help off set extra revenue, then they might
Speaker 1: be the ones actually pushing for that themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very insightful. Actually, Mark, I'll get to the
Speaker 2: policy you've component in a moment here, but you know,
Speaker 2: you really tapped into one of the major reasons why
Speaker 2: SATUCI Action Fund exists and why we're so focused on
Speaker 2: the state level. If you can get energy companies to
Speaker 2: adopt bitcoin and bitcoin mining as a technology and they
Speaker 2: see it as a positive and in fact they are
Speaker 2: willing to fight for it, you have now put bitcoin
Speaker 2: mining into a very, very very positive political position. Because
Speaker 2: at the state level in the United States is where
Speaker 2: the majority of energy policy takes place. And because every
Speaker 2: single almost every single one of these utility companies and
Speaker 2: energy companies are highly regulated at the state level. In fact,
Speaker 2: you know, most utilities in the United States are you know,
Speaker 2: regulated monopoly so to speak. So in order for them
Speaker 2: to make sure that they don't get abused by the
Speaker 2: state legislator or that they don't lose out on their
Speaker 2: current sort of protections that they have because that with
Speaker 2: the with the monopoly comes a lot of regulation. Like there,
Speaker 2: it's a trade off. They are monopoly, but they get
Speaker 2: they are very restricted and they want to make sure
Speaker 2: the restrictions don't get worse. But they also want to
Speaker 2: make sure that their monopoly doesn't get you know, taken
Speaker 2: away from them as well. So they care. I'll give
Speaker 2: you enough story here just as a quick example that
Speaker 2: we can move on to the policy quipment before you do.
Speaker 1: That, before you go into that, I want to hear
Speaker 1: the story, and everybody else listening does too, But we've
Speaker 1: got to take just a quick break. If you're just
Speaker 1: tuning and you're listening to the Mark mass Show, and
Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Dennis Porter from the Satoshi Action
Speaker 1: Fund talking about the way that he's helping to change,
Speaker 1: educate people, and change and push action in the policy
Speaker 1: and the bitcoin space specifically. And he's got a great
Speaker 1: story to illustrate that, and he's going to tell you
Speaker 1: when we come back. But we're going to take a
Speaker 1: quick break, so don't go away. We'll be right back,
Speaker 1: all right. Welcome back. If you're just tuning in and
Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark Maas show. We're talking about
Speaker 1: the bitcoin mining space and the policies and regulations around that.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting down with Dennis Porter from the Satoshi Action Fund,
Speaker 1: and Dennis I had to kind of cut you off
Speaker 1: and we left everybody hanging. So you're going to kind
Speaker 1: of give like a little illustrative story there for seconds,
Speaker 1: So go ahead, Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: You know you had mentioned how important it would be
Speaker 2: to get energy companies and utilities on board because of
Speaker 2: the impact it would have if they were on our team. Well,
Speaker 2: just as an example, in a state of Mississippi, when
Speaker 2: we went there to try to pass policy, you know,
Speaker 2: we had some sort of kind of myth communication breakdown
Speaker 2: is what I would call it, with some of the
Speaker 2: energy companies there, and we ended up having to sit
Speaker 2: down with all the different lobbyists to be able to
Speaker 2: talk about what we were doing. Well, ultimately, it just
Speaker 2: didn't end very well for us, right because they didn't
Speaker 2: see us as a friend in the fight. They saw
Speaker 2: us as someone that might be a threat to what's
Speaker 2: going on there in that state. So ultimately we weren't
Speaker 2: able to get anything done in Mississippi. But imagine the inverse.
Speaker 2: Imagine if all of the utility companies and all the
Speaker 2: people in the state of Mississippi that are working within
Speaker 2: the energy sector see the value of this technology all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, instead of them fighting us at the
Speaker 2: state legislator to pass this policy, they are working with
Speaker 2: us as a partner in tandem to help make sure
Speaker 2: that the state of Mississippi is a leader on bitcoin mining.
Speaker 2: And so I think ultimately we'll come around. We're going
Speaker 2: to come around this next cycle. We might have a
Speaker 2: little bit better work with us to do in that state.
Speaker 2: But we had to sit down with all these lobbyists
Speaker 2: from all the other energy companies and they were talent,
Speaker 2: like you're worried about what we were going to do.
Speaker 2: So the goal ultimately would be to get all the utilities,
Speaker 2: not just in Mississippi, but across the entire country to
Speaker 2: see the value of bitcoin mining for balancing the grid
Speaker 2: and for enhancing energy projects, and get them to fight
Speaker 2: for it at the state legislators, where the vast majority
Speaker 2: of energy policy is taking place, either through the state
Speaker 2: legislator or through the public utility commissions there as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now let's get back into that bill. You were
Speaker 1: talking about the bill and we were talking about where
Speaker 1: I was talking about how it's not really the legislators
Speaker 1: that write the bills. They kind of cosponsor the bills,
Speaker 1: and so you've submitted a bill, so like that seems
Speaker 1: to be the kind of way it works.
Speaker 2: So just yeah, let's take a step back really quickly.
Speaker 2: There's a vast difference between what happens at the state
Speaker 2: level and what happens at the federal level. At the
Speaker 2: federal level, there's quite a bit more involvement from the
Speaker 2: legislator and the legislator's staff on the process. But the
Speaker 2: difference between that and the states is that the federal
Speaker 2: level has a vast budget to be able to hire
Speaker 2: well qualified staffers to focus on these issues and to
Speaker 2: come up with great policy solutions. So generally you're not
Speaker 2: really like, you know, they say the term is like
Speaker 2: handing policy to them, which is not something that we
Speaker 2: do either. Generally, what you do is you have bullet
Speaker 2: points and you just say, hey, these are some things
Speaker 2: that we think would be important, and you're going to
Speaker 2: take it and if you like what we're trying to do,
Speaker 2: you're gonna take it and move on it. So, for instance,
Speaker 2: the state of Montana you say, hey, you like bitcoin mining,
Speaker 2: we like bitcoin mining. Here's some things that we know
Speaker 2: should probably take pay place if you want to see
Speaker 2: the adoption of bitcoin mining in the states. So then
Speaker 2: the policymaker takes that bill, sends it to the drafters
Speaker 2: who put it into Montana state Code, design it all out,
Speaker 2: and then the policy maker works and fights to make
Speaker 2: sure that that bill makes it through committee, through the
Speaker 2: House and Senate, and then passes it and hopefully signs
Speaker 2: it by the governor. So, you know, handing them policy
Speaker 2: directly is not exactly the right way to say it.
Speaker 2: Although it does kind of take place, it's not the
Speaker 2: best way to describe what's going on. And if it
Speaker 2: does play take place, it's usually happening mostly at the
Speaker 2: state level.
Speaker 1: Got it, Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. Now,
Speaker 1: you know one thing that I know, you know, I
Speaker 1: think I forget the last time, the first time I
Speaker 1: had you on, but I remember it was kind of
Speaker 1: at this point. It seems like I remember at this
Speaker 1: point where bitcoin was kind of becoming like this political tool,
Speaker 1: where like it seemed like maybe just like the conservative
Speaker 1: maybe right side of the aisle was kind of picking
Speaker 1: it up. And then like maybe the left kind of
Speaker 1: Democrat side was kind of now saying, oh, it's like
Speaker 1: this political tool, and now it seems to be embraced
Speaker 1: by both sides of the AIS. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: I'm here speaking at the Freedom Fest in Memphis, Tennessee
Speaker 1: this week. There's several presidential candidates here, including RFK Junior
Speaker 1: on the left and Vivic Garamaswami on the right, and
Speaker 1: Tulca Gabbard was speaking this morning and she's not running
Speaker 1: for president, but she's in the middle, and they're all
Speaker 1: proponent for bitcoin. Do you think that bitcoin has sort of,
Speaker 1: I guess jumped. It's kind of scaled to that level
Speaker 1: where it's no longer left or right, it's no longer
Speaker 1: like a political tool. I mean, both sides are for it.
Speaker 1: Or how do you view that now?
Speaker 2: You know, I really is a pretty complex situation, complex question.
Speaker 2: You definitely do see quite a bit more uptake early
Speaker 2: uptake from those on the right, especially those that have
Speaker 2: libertarian leanings on the right. On the left, you are
Speaker 2: starting to see some movement though we do see RFK
Speaker 2: coming out in supportive of this. We also do have
Speaker 2: you know, in Congress, we have a blockchain Caucus and
Speaker 2: there are dozens of members there and many of them
Speaker 2: are Democrats, So you know, Richie Trus, You've got Darren
Speaker 2: Soto among many others like Rocana, who are very supportive
Speaker 2: of the digital asset space broadly. So although the I
Speaker 2: would say it's more of a narrative war than it
Speaker 2: is an actual conversation about who is for and against bitcoin. Yes,
Speaker 2: right now, currently you do have an administration on the
Speaker 2: left with Democrats, Biden administration with folks like Elizabeth Warren
Speaker 2: who seemingly are you know, kind of charging forward with
Speaker 2: this narrative that we need to oppose the digital asset
Speaker 2: space by creating an anti crypto army. But that's not
Speaker 2: really the tone of the entire Democrat part party. In fact,
Speaker 2: you have senators like Ron Wyden who are being supportive
Speaker 2: of the industry, who see the value of bitcoin mining
Speaker 2: as as something that can use green energy. We also
Speaker 2: recently were meeting with various other folks in the Senate
Speaker 2: and we're going to be going back here again soon
Speaker 2: and we're having a ton of great conversations where people
Speaker 2: do see the value of bitcoin mining as it as
Speaker 2: an environmental cleanup tool, but also as something that could
Speaker 2: balance the grid and advance renewables in this country, and
Speaker 2: that's something that all Democrats love.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm hearing two different things there, right. So, Like,
Speaker 1: for sure, like I hear like some of the senators
Speaker 1: that really care about their states and want to increase
Speaker 1: you know, the grid dependent the grid independence, or even
Speaker 1: the you know, the energy sectors in their states, and
Speaker 1: so they see the benefits of having bitcoin for that perspective.
Speaker 1: But then you know, when I listened to RFK Junior,
Speaker 1: I mean he's really saying that, like, you should just
Speaker 1: have the right to choose what you want, you should
Speaker 1: have the freedom to use money. So I think I
Speaker 1: think they're kind of getting at from both sides.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I love what RFK is saying. I
Speaker 2: think if the you know, one of his best traits
Speaker 2: has to be that he's very much a free market individual,
Speaker 2: and I think that that's where he derives his belief
Speaker 2: that people should have open and access to bitcoin. And
Speaker 2: he also cares a lot about the environment, and fortunately
Speaker 2: people have been able to get in and share with
Speaker 2: him about the potential positive impact of bitcoin mining for
Speaker 2: the environment. But RFK is not the president you know,
Speaker 2: he is a candidate running for office. He's never held office,
Speaker 2: he's never been an elected official, although he's seemingly kind
Speaker 2: of rising in the polls and definitely rising in his
Speaker 2: media attention. I mean, whoever the guy's media manager is
Speaker 2: needs to be getting paid top dollar once he exits
Speaker 2: this campaign, because he's doing an incredible job of getting
Speaker 2: RFK into these sorts of media positions to get out
Speaker 2: the word on what his positions are on a variety
Speaker 2: of issues, and he has strong issues on a variety
Speaker 2: of issues that Americans care about. So currently, like I said,
Speaker 2: you know, Biden current administration kind of negative towards bitcoin,
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining, but there are plenty of Democrats RFK, Darren Soto, Widen,
Speaker 2: many others who are supportive of the industry, and I
Speaker 2: hope that we get a chance to see that more
Speaker 2: of that take place as time goes on.
Speaker 1: Would you be concerned with Rfk's, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: long standing environmental positions in regards to that.
Speaker 2: He would be a massive upgrade over the current position
Speaker 2: of what's taking place with the current Biden administration. He's
Speaker 2: partly because he has been educated on the potential for
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining to be good, a good tool for the environment,
Speaker 2: but also because he believes a lot more in free
Speaker 2: market economics, and I don't think he would go out
Speaker 2: of his way to ban bitcoin mining. You know, he
Speaker 2: has said that he likes the idea of a free
Speaker 2: market environment for energy. Multiple times. He's been asked about
Speaker 2: it as it pertains to nuclear energy and to wind
Speaker 2: at solar, and he's come on the record multiple times
Speaker 2: saying that he believes in a free market for energy,
Speaker 2: and I think that that's really what bitcoin mining needs
Speaker 2: at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did get a chance to speak with him
Speaker 1: personally at Michael Sailor's house when we were in Miami,
Speaker 1: and I had a chance to actually have that exact
Speaker 1: conversation with him about nuclear energy, and to be honest,
Speaker 1: I was a little disappointed with his answer and stance
Speaker 1: on that. And he's very educated, but it just seemed
Speaker 1: a little bit misplaced in my opinion. And ultimately where
Speaker 1: it came down to was he believes that nuclear power
Speaker 1: is not safe and it's not cost effective, and we've had,
Speaker 1: you know, depending on how you want to look at
Speaker 1: the data, we've had maybe a few hundred people die
Speaker 1: total in the history of nuclear power. None had died
Speaker 1: in the last you know, nuclear problem in Fukushima. Yet
Speaker 1: who knows how many people die in creation of solar panels,
Speaker 1: digging out minerals out of the ground and all that
Speaker 1: installing and probably falling off of the list whatever. So
Speaker 1: we've had you know, nuclear subs since the sixties, never
Speaker 1: had a problem with it. So anyway, I was a
Speaker 1: little bit a little bit taken back by that stance.
Speaker 1: But you know, we'll see. Now, if you're just tune in,
Speaker 1: you're listening to the Markomas Show. I got to take
Speaker 1: a quick break, but I'm going to be right back,
Speaker 1: so don't go away, you don't want to miss it.
Speaker 1: I'll be right back, all right, Welcome back. If you're
Speaker 1: just tune in, you're listening to the markma Show. I'm
Speaker 1: sitting down with Dennis Porter from Soatoci Action Fund. We're
Speaker 1: talking about his work and the fun so Social Action
Speaker 1: Funds work on educating in the political space and taking
Speaker 1: action on that. Now, you know one thing, Dennis is
Speaker 1: I'm curious. Obviously, you guys have been doing this for
Speaker 1: a while, and I'm sure some of it has been
Speaker 1: some of your impact, but I think there's also a
Speaker 1: bigger impact just happened in the mainstream, And I'm curious
Speaker 1: if you've seen maybe a little bit of a shift
Speaker 1: in the rhetoric around bitcoin specifically and maybe bitcoin mining
Speaker 1: a little bit even more specifically, around some of the rhetoric.
Speaker 1: And so, you know, obviously we know some of the
Speaker 1: hit pieces that have been done. You know, bitcoin is
Speaker 1: going to consume more energy than the you know, the
Speaker 1: entire earth and things like that. We've seen stuff like that.
Speaker 1: We saw the hit piece I referenced earlier, like New
Speaker 1: York Times did and you know, the right bitcoin space
Speaker 1: mining space. But then, you know, I'm curious, you know
Speaker 1: now that we're starting to see you know, black Rock
Speaker 1: coming in and like, hey, we're going to launch a
Speaker 1: fund atf Right and Fidelity and even Fidelity you know,
Speaker 1: doing some mining and things like that, do you think
Speaker 1: that will start to shift the mainstream media's portrayal of
Speaker 1: what it is. I mean, Blackrock potentially is gonna have
Speaker 1: a lot of money to spend towards getting people into
Speaker 1: their edf do you you know, Blackrock is probably a
Speaker 1: big sponsor of some of those mainstream media Do you
Speaker 1: think are you starting to see it shift or do
Speaker 1: you think that will start to shift.
Speaker 2: It Absolutely, it will. You know, I've said for a
Speaker 2: long time that you know, as bitcoin advances in the
Speaker 2: United States and as the organizations with all the money
Speaker 2: organizations like you know, black Rock start to come on
Speaker 2: board and start to see the value of this technology,
Speaker 2: that once they start to see that it's something that
Speaker 2: they want to push to the folks within their fund
Speaker 2: that they will actually turn around and use their political
Speaker 2: power to protect bitcoin. So I think, you know, there's
Speaker 2: something to be said about that, the fact that bitcoin
Speaker 2: is very permissionless and it has a very strong incentive structure,
Speaker 2: and so anybody can gain access to it, and it
Speaker 2: is going to use its in strong incentive structure to
Speaker 2: encourage everyone to be a part of it. And once
Speaker 2: you're a part of it, you know, Mark like just
Speaker 2: like myself, you know, all of a sudden, I've been
Speaker 2: too bitcoin and five years later, I'm fighting at the
Speaker 2: front lines trying to make sure that folks are educated
Speaker 2: on this issue. I could probably get paid way better
Speaker 2: to go do something else, but you know, I'm out
Speaker 2: here trying to make sure that this technology is advocated
Speaker 2: for and that Americans have access to it. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: I do agree that that black Rock coming in will
Speaker 2: be good in the sense that it will provide additional
Speaker 2: resources and another voice kind of in the voids, so
Speaker 2: to speak, a very large voice, one of the largest
Speaker 2: or if not the largest fund in the entire world
Speaker 2: coming in and supporting the industry. But also I do
Speaker 2: see there is a churn or a shift in a
Speaker 2: narrative taking place. We do see a lot of bad
Speaker 2: articles coming out about bitcoin bitcoin wrining, but in the
Speaker 2: last six months there has been a rapid uptick in
Speaker 2: positive coverage. In fact, in the last month or two
Speaker 2: we have seen Forbes just come out with positive article
Speaker 2: after positive article around bitcoin mining. That means that, you know,
Speaker 2: the folks at the top at Forbes are starting to
Speaker 2: think that maybe that this is something that they had
Speaker 2: gotten wrong in the past, and that now they are
Speaker 2: starting to see the value of it. I think that
Speaker 2: Forbes is just the beginning, and that you'll see more
Speaker 2: of this take place. We should be giving a very
Speaker 2: large shout out to people like Pierre Rashard, Daniel Batten,
Speaker 2: and others who have done a lot of work to
Speaker 2: try to convince folks that we need to be getting
Speaker 2: behind bitcoin and that America needs to be leading on
Speaker 2: this technology.
Speaker 1: In regards to that. With America leading this technology, I
Speaker 1: mean it is American technology, It was developed in America.
Speaker 1: It has the American ethos built in right, strong private
Speaker 1: property rights, rule of law, et cetera, et cetera. And
Speaker 1: you know, we saw, you know, China had over sixty
Speaker 1: percent of the network capacity of the mining network capacity
Speaker 1: in China, and then China took a very aggressive stance
Speaker 1: and kicked it all out of the country and the
Speaker 1: United States became a big beneficiary of that. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure. I don't know if the United
Speaker 1: States is about thirty percent of that. Now you can
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong on that, but you know,
Speaker 1: we saw that the United States was sort of given
Speaker 1: that role, handed handed that role almost by default. I'm
Speaker 1: curious what you think the future is. I mean, if
Speaker 1: the United States continues on the you know, restrictive warpath,
Speaker 1: so to speak, does America lose its place with this technology?
Speaker 1: And do you see other countries potentially stepping up to
Speaker 1: challenge that role, like for example, Georgia we saw which
Speaker 1: is obviously a very small country, but stepping in to
Speaker 1: start mining it directly. Of course, you know El Salvador
Speaker 1: has been talking about mind it directly. So do you think,
Speaker 1: like a is it ours to lose? Do you think
Speaker 1: if they don't, if they don't quickly change, another country
Speaker 1: could take the lead on this. What's your viewpoint on that?
Speaker 2: There's always opportunities for other countries to attract the bitcoin
Speaker 2: digital asset space, bitcoin mining to their shores. And that's
Speaker 2: the great thing about this technology is that it can
Speaker 2: really be anywhere, anywhere that there's energy. However, that being said,
Speaker 2: I will say that the United States is in an
Speaker 2: incredible position to keep a vast majority of the hash
Speaker 2: rate inside of its orders, simply for the fact that
Speaker 2: we have a lot of inefficiencies where bitcoin miners can
Speaker 2: take place over a vast area where they can start
Speaker 2: to benefit from the lack of inefficiencies that are created
Speaker 2: by wind and solar on the grid. But also we
Speaker 2: have one of the most stable political systems in the
Speaker 2: entire world. Now, you know, you go and you set
Speaker 2: up in somewhere in Africa, somewhere in China, you name it,
Speaker 2: you might go there. They might have cheaper power. But
Speaker 2: a couple of things could take place. One is you
Speaker 2: might end up having to pay corruption charges. Like there
Speaker 2: are people that will just charge you money just saying hey,
Speaker 2: you got to pay me money, or we're gonna we're
Speaker 2: gonna mess up your business, or you have to worry
Speaker 2: about you know, for instance, Kazakhstan on the Internet going
Speaker 2: down completely, or China designed to ban bitcoin mining. So
Speaker 2: those things are not taking place in the United States.
Speaker 2: So far, we have not seen any sort of really
Speaker 2: aggressive anti bitcoin mining policy take place other than just
Speaker 2: solely in the state of New York where it's kind
Speaker 2: of a one off situation. What about like.
Speaker 1: Trial, what about like the whole Biden like thirty percent
Speaker 1: tax and all that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, sure the president can suggest whatever he wants,
Speaker 2: but it never really had a chance of passing through Congress,
Speaker 2: and in fact was completely shut down during the deal
Speaker 2: trading that happened for the budget limit trade I wish
Speaker 2: you called trade and good.
Speaker 1: But if that were to go through, then that would
Speaker 1: qualify as very restrictive sort of like what these other
Speaker 1: countries have done potentially, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean a thirty percent tax would have
Speaker 2: virtually destroyed the industry overnight in the United States.
Speaker 1: But you think there was really never a really strong
Speaker 1: chance of that ever happening. It was more just like
Speaker 1: some rhetoric.
Speaker 2: Absolutely rhetoric, very very very low chance of it happening.
Speaker 2: Like the thing is with bills, this is kind of
Speaker 2: the way that you need to think about them, is
Speaker 2: that you can introduce a bill for free, but it
Speaker 2: takes a lot of work to get it passed. And yes,
Speaker 2: if the Biden administration was wholly invested in a thirty
Speaker 2: percent tax on bitcoin mining, they might have been able
Speaker 2: to squeak it out, but you have to remember there
Speaker 2: are many other much more important topics and issues to
Speaker 2: the administration then screwing bitcoin miners over with a thirty
Speaker 2: percent tax. I mean, you're talking about the war in Ukraine,
Speaker 2: you're talking about the border, you're talking about health, you're
Speaker 2: talking about homelessness. This is not an issue that is worth,
Speaker 2: you know, even negotiating over. Fortunately, in a situation where
Speaker 2: we had the debt limit increase, where they were negotiating
Speaker 2: over that, Republicans had negotiated that they wanted no new
Speaker 2: additional taxes and that in that debt limit bill, which
Speaker 2: ultimately resulted in there not being any new taxes on
Speaker 2: bitcoin mining. So kind of Fortunately we were swept up
Speaker 2: in that. But that's kind of how DC operates. Like
Speaker 2: you don't ever go to DC and just say I
Speaker 2: want this one bill to pass and it passed because
Speaker 2: it was such a good idea. Generally, it's like a
Speaker 2: movement or a wave of policy. Like you did you
Speaker 2: know that the healthcare bill was thousands of pages with
Speaker 2: hundreds of different types of policies in there. It's not
Speaker 2: just one little policy that passes. They oftentimes get grouped
Speaker 2: up into larger bills and passed or not passed. That's
Speaker 2: generally the way it works in DC. And again, fortunate
Speaker 2: that for some reason within the Republican Party they were
Speaker 2: able to negotiate that they want to know new additional taxes.
Speaker 2: I mean, they're generally anti tax so that's part that's why.
Speaker 2: But for some reason that was a big part of
Speaker 2: their negotiation package.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, like you said, I mean a lot
Speaker 1: of times they pass these giant omnibus bills that have
Speaker 1: all types of things stuffed in there that most people
Speaker 1: have no chance to even read.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: And so for example, one of the things they do,
Speaker 1: which unfortunately seems like they're going to continue to spend
Speaker 1: more money We just saw how that debt ceiling debate
Speaker 1: went down. And when they want to pass these new
Speaker 1: spending bills, they have to figure ou how to get
Speaker 1: the money from somewhere a lot of times, so take
Speaker 1: into attack, you know, new taxes into account or something
Speaker 1: like that, they figure out how to pay for that. So,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a matter of staying vigilant. Right, It's
Speaker 1: my fear is that they My fear is that they
Speaker 1: do these things and then you know, they kind of
Speaker 1: throw it out against the wall. It's kind of outrageous.
Speaker 1: It's like a it's what you'd call like a drop
Speaker 1: cell technique. Right, they throw something out outrageous that people
Speaker 1: object to, they take it away, and then they bring
Speaker 1: it back a little bit more tame, and then people
Speaker 1: kind of just like let it go through. So we
Speaker 1: definitely have to stay vigilant. So I love what you're
Speaker 1: doing with Toshi Action Fund. If you're just tuned in
Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark Mos Show. I've been sitting
Speaker 1: down with Dennis Porter from the Satoshi Action Fund, and
Speaker 1: you should definitely check them out. Dennis anywhere else, anyone
Speaker 1: should follow along.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to follow us, you can sign
Speaker 2: up for our newsletter by going to Satoshi Action dot io.
Speaker 2: If you want to reach out to me personally, you
Speaker 2: can email me at Dennis at Satoshi action dot io.
Speaker 2: And we also, you know, have all of our Twitter
Speaker 2: accounts up and running if you if you look us up,
Speaker 2: you know, we'll show up right at.
Speaker 1: The top yep. And we're gonna make sure that we
Speaker 1: link all that in the show notes down below. Definitely
Speaker 1: give Dennis a follow and check them out. And that's
Speaker 1: all we got. Thanks so much for listening today. Until
Speaker 1: next time,