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Speaker 1: Before the first crew leaves from Mars, it would be

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Speaker 1: good to know what to expect. Yes, you want to

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Speaker 1: know things like what kind of trajectory your spacecraft is

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Speaker 1: going to take, But you also want to know some

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Speaker 1: of the squishier stuff too, like what kind of social

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Speaker 1: problems might come up along the way.

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Speaker 2: To help think through the problems you might encounter.

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Speaker 1: It might be helpful to know what's happened in similar situations,

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Speaker 1: But what would a similar situation look like? Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: a trip to Mars will include separating crew members from

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Speaker 1: their family and friends for more than two years, living

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Speaker 1: in a cramped space with a small number of people

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Speaker 1: who you may or may not like, days filled with

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Speaker 1: tedious and boring tasks like fixing the toilet, and a

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Speaker 1: diet of shelf stable and maybe less than delicious foods,

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Speaker 1: in an environment where some small mistake could spell death

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Speaker 1: for the whole crew. Turns out, all of those criteria

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Speaker 1: are met by research expeditions launched to Earth's poles around

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Speaker 1: the year nineteen hundred.

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Speaker 2: Space will have fewer walruses.

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Speaker 1: And hopefully less cannibalism, but at least initially, we'll probably

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Speaker 1: have similar levels of misery tediousness, stinkiness, and danger. So

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about two different polar research

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Speaker 1: expeditions and discuss how the problems experienced during these expeditions

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Speaker 1: can give us some insights into how we should prepare

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Speaker 1: for the first trip to Mars.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe. I'm Daniel.

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Speaker 3: I'm a particle physicist and I don't like being uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: but I do like camping.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kelly Wienersmith. I'm a parasitologist and I like gross stuff.

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Speaker 1: And there's just not enough gross stuff at the polls

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Speaker 1: for me to want to go.

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Speaker 3: Well, are you a camping kind of person? Do you

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Speaker 3: like to be out there in nature, on the edge

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Speaker 3: of survival, making coffee over an open flame?

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Speaker 1: I do, but I don't get to do it a

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Speaker 1: lot because I married an indoor husband.

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Speaker 3: Sounds like you need a second outdoor husband.

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Speaker 2: Is that an option? I don't know. I think Zach

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Speaker 2: would say.

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Speaker 3: No, you have my permission, but I do know what

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Speaker 3: that counts for.

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Speaker 2: Oh, fantastic, or I'll let zech know.

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Speaker 1: We went to a cabin once and he called that

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Speaker 1: camping and then he was like, I've had enough and

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Speaker 1: so that's it.

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Speaker 2: So what about you?

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Speaker 3: I don't have an outdoor husband. No, but thank you

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Speaker 3: for asking, but no. My question for you today is

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Speaker 3: what is the scariest or most dangerous outdoor camping expedition

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Speaker 3: experience you've had? Have you ever thought hmm, I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure I'm going to make it back from this one.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think I've ever done anything that dangerous.

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Speaker 1: And anytime that I have been scared, it's because I

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Speaker 1: was camping and they were like loud people nearby who

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Speaker 1: sounded like maybe they were getting violent, and so it

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Speaker 1: was scary because of the other humans, not because of

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Speaker 1: like wild animals or difficult temperature conditions.

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Speaker 2: Or something like that. I don't know that I've really

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Speaker 2: gone out on a limb while camping. What about you?

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Speaker 3: I almost froze to death once in the Ozarks in

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Speaker 3: a freak snowstorm.

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Speaker 4: WHOA.

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Speaker 3: I was going to go on like a week long

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Speaker 3: backpacking trip with my wife Katrina, and we had this

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Speaker 3: wonderful guidebook to take us through the Ozarks, and it said,

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Speaker 3: you know, if people tell you it's going to snow

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Speaker 3: don't worry. It never snows in the Ozarks. And the

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Speaker 3: morning we started walking out, it started to snow and

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Speaker 3: we were like, hm, this is weird, but we just

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Speaker 3: kept going because we had never bailed on a backpacking

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Speaker 3: trip ever, right, And we were crossing streams which were frozen,

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Speaker 3: and the temperatures just kept dropping and dropping, and we

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Speaker 3: had to stop at like three in the afternoon and

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Speaker 3: try to set up camp and it was like ten

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Speaker 3: degrees and our fingers were freezing, and we made the

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Speaker 3: like terrible decision to cook dinner inside the tent because

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Speaker 3: it was so cold, and we didn't burn the tent down,

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Speaker 3: but we did like go to bed in the sleeping

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Speaker 3: bags at like five pm because the temperature was so low.

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Speaker 3: And we woke up at like three in the morning

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Speaker 3: having slept the full night, and it was still like

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Speaker 3: five degrees. Oh no, So we woke up in the

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Speaker 3: morning and hiked right back out of there, and we

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Speaker 3: were like, yeah, we're not doing this again, and we

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Speaker 3: spent the rest of that trip in a cabin. So

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Speaker 3: Zach would call it camping.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Have you done any backpacking away from civilization since?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, we've since taken our kids backpacking and made

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Speaker 3: similar mistakes, this time being underprepared for mountains in the

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Speaker 3: summer in California. Turns out when you go really high up,

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Speaker 3: it can get pretty cold.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I always get dizzy when I go really

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Speaker 2: high up.

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Speaker 1: I think everybody's maybe picking up on me being a

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Speaker 1: giant wimp and having married a giant whimp. And you're

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Speaker 1: totally correct with that assessment. Yeah, whenever I go mountain

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Speaker 1: climbing with friends or something, we get a little high

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Speaker 1: up and I'm like, sorry, guys, I'm dizzy. You keep

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Speaker 1: going hung and eat my snack, got my protein bar, and.

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Speaker 2: I hang out.

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Speaker 6: Well.

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Speaker 3: Fortunately, humanity has learned a lot about the Earth because

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Speaker 3: there are people who are not like me and not

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Speaker 3: thank you, and can survive crazy conditions to explore all

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Speaker 3: the amazing and beautiful corners of this earth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the people who explore the poles are really amazing

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Speaker 1: to me, in part because it's like such a juxtaposition

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Speaker 1: with my wimpiness, you know. So when I read about

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Speaker 1: the expeditions to the Poles, like, I don't really like

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Speaker 1: being cold. Virginia has a little bit of cold in

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Speaker 1: the winter that seems really nice. I have friends who

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Speaker 1: go to Antarctica to like study sealed diving behavior, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be that cold, but they're incredible.

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Speaker 1: There are people who love this stuff and thrive on

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Speaker 1: it and don't die.

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Speaker 3: And so is it hard for you to even like

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Speaker 3: read about this, like while you're wrapped up in a

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Speaker 3: blanket and sipping your warm tea, You're like, ooh, this

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Speaker 3: is too unpleasant? Or does it give you a thrill

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Speaker 3: to hear about other people suffering?

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Speaker 2: I don't revel in their suffering.

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Speaker 1: It makes me feel justified in my decision to stay

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Speaker 1: home with my warm blankets. You know, it's good that

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Speaker 1: some people go out and explore the world. And there'll

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Speaker 1: be some stories today about an expedition that collected some

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Speaker 1: data from the Arctic that's used now as like a

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Speaker 1: baseline for understanding climate change. I'm glad there are people

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Speaker 1: out there doing it. It just doesn't have to be me.

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Speaker 1: I'm good, what about you.

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Speaker 3: I'm in awe of these folks, you know, the way

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Speaker 3: they risk their lives, the way they suffer, the way

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Speaker 3: they persevere. It's incredible. I don't think that I could

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Speaker 3: do it, but of course I'm not in that situation.

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Speaker 3: I don't really know, and lots of times when normal

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Speaker 3: people have had to do extraordinary things in order to survive.

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Speaker 3: But this feels different because it feels like they've chosen it.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 3: They could have stayed home with their blanket and their

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Speaker 3: tea and had a more boring job. But I guess

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Speaker 3: there was something in them that made them feel like,

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Speaker 3: I want to do something nobody else has done, even

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Speaker 3: if I'm risking my fingers and my toes and my nose.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think they do it? What do you

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Speaker 2: think their motivation is.

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Speaker 3: I think they're outdoor husbands, you know, and that's just

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Speaker 3: some of us are outdoor husbands and some of us

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Speaker 3: are indoor husbands. I think it's just really who we are.

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Speaker 3: Everybody's different. And I want to explore the universe. I

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Speaker 3: had this deep drive to understand the way the universe works,

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Speaker 3: but I don't have a drive to physically explore the universe.

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Speaker 3: I want to explore the universe mentally while staying home

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Speaker 3: with my tea. And I think other people have that

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Speaker 3: deep desire to see new things physically themselves, to be

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Speaker 3: the first person to put their flag somewhere who were

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Speaker 3: excited about the idea of like living in Elon Musk's

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Speaker 3: colony on Mars. I think we're all just built a

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Speaker 3: little different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I totally agree. I think we are all

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Speaker 1: just built a little different. I think these expeditions are

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Speaker 1: a combination of like looking for adventure, wanting to answer

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Speaker 1: scientific questions, and then also a little bit in some

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Speaker 1: cases of a drive for fame. So like famously, roll

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Speaker 1: Aminson was heading to try to get to the North

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Speaker 1: Pole first, and he had like the whole ship like

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Speaker 1: packed up, and they were on the way, and he

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Speaker 1: found out that actually someone had made it to the

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Speaker 1: North Pole first, and he wasn't going to get the

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Speaker 1: first claim. So he turned that ship around, lied to

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Speaker 1: his funders, and headed to the South Pole, which he

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Speaker 1: did get to first. And so I think in some

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Speaker 1: cases it's not like a desire to get a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of information or to see a certain place. It's

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Speaker 1: like a desire to like be number one. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's the motivation for everyone. That's maybe just

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Speaker 1: the motivation for some captains who have gone out there.

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Speaker 3: Well, lying to your funders. Nate's with me. There's definitely

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Speaker 3: been times when I've gotten a grant to do X,

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Speaker 3: and then I'm like, that's not gonna work out. I

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Speaker 3: think want to do why instead? And I don't know

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Speaker 3: if that counts as lying to your funders, but you know,

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Speaker 3: sometimes science takes a swerve.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you're alone there.

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Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people say that they pitch

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Speaker 1: grants for projects they've already done, yeah, so that they

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Speaker 1: know they'll have it done on time and then they

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Speaker 1: can use the money for the next thing.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, maybe Elon Musk has already been to Mars and

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Speaker 3: he's pitching it, but he secretly already has the base there.

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Speaker 3: What do you think?

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Speaker 2: No, I hope not.

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Speaker 7: No.

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Speaker 1: I don't think quick aside that I thought was super fun.

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Speaker 1: So I was reading Freak Joff Nansen, sorry about the pronunciation.

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Speaker 1: Part of his mission Aboard the fram was funded by

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Speaker 1: Ring This Beer, and in his diary, which he knew

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Speaker 1: was going to get turned into a book, he very

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Speaker 1: regularly talks about how delicious Ring This Beer is and

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Speaker 1: the day they ran out, he says, it's a day

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Speaker 1: of mourning when we ran out of Ring this Beer.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, to what extent is this advertising versus

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Speaker 1: like actually being said about running out of ring this beer.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, some things haven't.

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Speaker 3: Shaped all right, But let's get back on topic. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: tell us why we're talking about polar expeditions today. If

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Speaker 3: our real goal is to understand what life would be

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Speaker 3: like on.

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Speaker 1: Mars, well, before you go to Mars, you'd like to

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Speaker 1: know what kind of problems you should prepare for, what

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Speaker 1: kind of things you're likely to experience. And there's just

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Speaker 1: not a lot of exploration missions that are as intense

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Speaker 1: as what amission to Mars will be like. But the

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Speaker 1: Polar expeditions come close, and they had a lot of

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Speaker 1: problems that I think NASA folks are now anticipating and

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Speaker 1: have like incorporated into their mission plans. But there's just

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Speaker 1: a lot of problems that get encountered that you're gonna

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Speaker 1: want to avoid. And there's a lot of common themes

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Speaker 1: when you're reading this stuff that make you think, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: all right, there's definitely some stuff beyond figuring out the

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Speaker 1: trajectory and like designing the rocket or the ship that

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Speaker 1: you need to be thinking about.

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Speaker 3: So going to Mars is going to be uncomfortable. So

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Speaker 3: let's think about the most uncomfortable anybody's ever been. That's

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Speaker 3: basically the.

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Speaker 1: Thought, you know, As I said, I hate being cold,

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Speaker 1: so yes, hungry and cold. I don't like either of

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Speaker 1: those things. That a lot of people died hungry and

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Speaker 1: cold at the polls.

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Speaker 3: So let's hear all about it. But before we do,

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Speaker 3: I went out there and I asked folks if they

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Speaker 3: thought that we could learn something about what life would

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Speaker 3: be like on Mars without actually going there. So before

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Speaker 3: you hear these answers, think for yourself. What do you

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Speaker 3: think we can learn about life on Mars from uncomfortable

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Speaker 3: experiences on Earth. Here's what folks around U see Irvine

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Speaker 3: had to say.

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Speaker 2: We'd probably learned some helpful tips and tricks.

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Speaker 7: But I think just the scale of how much more

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Speaker 7: difficult it would be to get to Mars makes things

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Speaker 7: a lot harder.

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Speaker 4: Even if it might be useful, it is only useful.

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Speaker 3: The first team of evolutions.

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Speaker 6: I think that's the best chance we have to prepare

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Speaker 6: for something is extreme as Mars.

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Speaker 5: They're isolated for six months without any real way to resupply,

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Speaker 5: you know, or get them out. So I remember there

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Speaker 5: was like several instances where they got ill and then

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Speaker 5: they had to learn how to from training and from

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Speaker 5: remote how to take care of the illness.

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Speaker 6: For example, the difficulty to getting into the South Pole

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Speaker 6: is similar to the difficulty of getting to Mars, at

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Speaker 6: least on a local level, right like gif to go

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Speaker 6: to Argentina first, then the weather has to be completely

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Speaker 6: perfect to get to the South Pole. Sometimes that takes

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Speaker 6: several months for to be good. And so I think

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Speaker 6: that would prepare the travelers going to Mars mentally, like

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Speaker 6: that uncertainty of all right, we have this time window.

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Speaker 6: If we miss it, we're going to have to wait

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Speaker 6: another amount of time, but you're still going to be

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Speaker 6: You're going to still have to be just as prepared

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Speaker 6: as you would have then before.

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Speaker 5: It's probably a good way to train, right just like

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Speaker 5: send people some cold, remote place and say, okay, live

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Speaker 5: by yourself for a year and see how that goes.

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Speaker 3: See if you like the misery?

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Speaker 6: Yeah no, no, Once traveling to Mars is its own thing,

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Speaker 6: it's a lot easier to travel to the pole.

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Speaker 4: For me, I don't have a very gietic I.

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Speaker 7: Feel like it would be totally diffferent.

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Speaker 4: I think it does because there's hospitable environments.

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Speaker 2: You learn how to manage those, so it's a stepping stone.

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Speaker 7: Oh, there's huge parallels. That's why Antarctic stations are treated

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Speaker 7: as a space analog, especially the one that the Australians run,

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Speaker 7: where they have ten people overwintering with no contact from

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Speaker 7: the outside world for eight months in the year, and

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Speaker 7: we see really interesting changes in immune system because you're

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Speaker 7: not exposed to new introductions of microbes through that time.

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Speaker 7: And there's social aspects as well, how you get people

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Speaker 7: to keep their dynamic moving in a good way when

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Speaker 7: they're so isolated.

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Speaker 1: It was interesting to me the variability and answers where

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Speaker 1: some folks were like, yes, absolutely, there's stuff to learn,

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Speaker 1: and others were like, no, it's two different I could

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Speaker 1: see both sides, and I do think that there's like

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Speaker 1: a narrow window of Martian exploration where we can learn

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Speaker 1: something from polar expeditions, and we're going to try to

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Speaker 1: folks on that narrow window today.

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Speaker 2: But what did you think of the responses?

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Speaker 6: Oh?

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Speaker 3: I thought they were great. That last one is from

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Speaker 3: my wife Katrina, and she touched on the social aspect,

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Speaker 3: which was really fascinating because I know that she studies

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Speaker 3: how folks microbes are similar when they lived together in

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Speaker 3: the Australian Antarctic Station, and in order to study that,

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Speaker 3: she had to have access to like how many times

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Speaker 3: the Australians, how do you say, transmit fluids among each other?

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Speaker 7: Uh huh?

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Speaker 3: And it turns out ten people overwintering and the Australian station,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of fluid transmission.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: We read a lot of stories about what happens at

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Speaker 1: those stations, and that comports with what we had read.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a very exciting place down there.

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Speaker 3: Lots of different potential matchups and basically all of them happened.

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Speaker 1: Not much else to do when you're down there, so

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, exactly, So wait to pass the time.

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's a preview for what life will be like

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Speaker 3: on Mars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, could be. It is a universal way to spend time.

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Speaker 3: So maybe outdoor husbands occasionally are indoor husbands in a

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Speaker 3: different way.

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Speaker 1: And then they get bored and they need to do

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Speaker 1: indoor things, yes, exact with other indoor people. If you'd

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Speaker 1: like to weigh in for our next episode, feel free

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Speaker 1: to send us an email at questions at Danielankelly dot org.

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Speaker 1: We'll send you the question and you can send us

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Speaker 1: an audio file with your answer, and then you can

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Speaker 1: hear your voice on our podcast.

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Speaker 3: And everybody can hear your thoughts on the question of

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Speaker 3: the day.

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Speaker 1: M all right, so let's get started. So I picked

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Speaker 1: two expeditions for us to talk about today that I

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Speaker 1: felt like illuminated some pretty important social things.

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Speaker 2: That you'd want to think about.

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Speaker 1: I also specifically picked missions that most people hadn't heard

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Speaker 1: about already. So these aren't like the first person to

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Speaker 1: make it to the North Pole the first person to

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Speaker 1: make it to the South Pole, because if you know

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Speaker 1: about polar expeditions, those are the things you're most likely

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Speaker 1: to know about that are shackleton and so these are

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Speaker 1: research expeditions.

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Speaker 2: Which you know.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I'd like to think that people care more about research,

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Speaker 1: but they sometimes don't. So our first expedition is led

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Speaker 1: by Adolphus Greeley. Interestingly, he was in the Civil War

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Speaker 1: and he got shot in the jaw. Maybe interesting was

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Speaker 1: the wrong word for that, but he got knocked out,

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Speaker 1: he fell over, and then he got shot again, but

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Speaker 1: he survived, and he wore a beard for the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life. And he was on the correct side

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Speaker 1: of the Civil War. I'll say, but he went through

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Speaker 1: some intense stuff and then he got put in charge

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Speaker 1: of this expedition that left in eighteen eighty one.

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Speaker 3: So already this guy's a survivor. He experiences terrible pain

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Speaker 3: and tragedy and just moves on.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yep, he's intense. He's a survivor.

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Speaker 1: And I'll note that the story today is from a

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Speaker 1: book called Labyrinth of Ice by Buddy Levy, and it's

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Speaker 1: a great book.

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Speaker 2: I recommend it.

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Speaker 3: Well, if I'm choosing somebody to head up my expedition

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Speaker 3: to the polls that I'm funding, I definitely want somebody

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Speaker 3: who's been through some suffering. So I want to see

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Speaker 3: that on the CV Experience Suffering.

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Speaker 2: I want to see that too.

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Speaker 1: But I think by the end of this story, maybe

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Speaker 1: we'll both agree that Greeley isn't your guy in particular.

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Speaker 1: He lives and that's great, But the rest of his crew.

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Speaker 3: So what was the goal of this mission? You said,

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Speaker 3: as a research mission? What were they trying to learn?

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Speaker 1: So one, they were setting up a research station, and

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Speaker 1: the goal was just to collect a bunch of environmental

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Speaker 1: data like temperature, barometric pressure or stuff like that. They

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Speaker 1: also were supposed to go look for the DeLong Expedition,

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Speaker 1: which was another expedition sent to the Arctic, but they

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Speaker 1: were DeLong gone, and oh, I'm so sorry. Maybe they

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Speaker 1: actually weren't all dead yet at that point, but really

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Speaker 1: didn't look too hard for them to be honest.

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Speaker 4: Mmm.

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Speaker 3: I feel like that's the set of for so many tragedies, like, hey,

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Speaker 3: we sent these people to this dangerous place, they didn't

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Speaker 3: come back, so now we're sending you to go figure

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Speaker 3: out what happened. Like I'm pretty sure I know what happened.

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Speaker 3: The ideas don't send more people there, but anyway, you know,

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Speaker 3: mission too get sent.

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Speaker 1: The survivors of the Greeley Expedition did get saved by

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Speaker 1: a crew that went in to save them, so sometimes

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Speaker 1: it works. But yes, I think a lot of the

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Speaker 1: time you're just like throwing more dead bodies on the pile.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's a little cold, but it's cold out there,

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Speaker 1: cold out there, So any puns I'm going to have

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Speaker 1: for today, it's going to be great.

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Speaker 3: But you were saying also that the point of this

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Speaker 3: mission was just to get like barometric and environmental data,

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Speaker 3: like we didn't know yet how cold it was at

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Speaker 3: the polls and what the pressure was and what the

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Speaker 3: weather was like there. That was still new to us.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't totally new. So most of the folks who

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Speaker 1: had gone to the polls were trying to reach farthest

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Speaker 1: north and so it was like a race to get

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Speaker 1: there and then to come back. And it wasn't like

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Speaker 1: systematic data collection. So his goal was to set up

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Speaker 1: a research station and collect data in the same place

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Speaker 1: over a long period of time, to get like some

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Speaker 1: really nice solid baseline, not just like collecting random data

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Speaker 1: points wherever you happen to be on a trip to

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Speaker 1: try to make it to a place quickly.

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Speaker 3: All right, So how did this mission go? Was it

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Speaker 3: fun from the beginning or did tragedy strike on day one?

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Speaker 2: It was pretty good initially.

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Speaker 1: So, like they got there and they set up the

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Speaker 1: research station, they were collecting data pretty well. One of

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Speaker 1: the secret goals really had that he wasn't really supposed

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Speaker 1: to be going for was to try to get as

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Speaker 1: far north as anyone had ever gotten before, or just

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Speaker 1: to kind of like tie up that record. And they

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Speaker 1: did that, all right, I mean the record was eventually beat,

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Speaker 1: but like he was feeling pretty good about that. They

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Speaker 1: were getting their data. Things were going okay. But at

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Speaker 1: the end of year one they hit their first major snag.

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Speaker 1: There were a couple like social problems before then, but

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Speaker 1: at year one, the first resupply ship that was supposed

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Speaker 1: to bring them supplies to like get them through to

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Speaker 1: the next couple of years left too late in the season.

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Speaker 3: What how does that happen? They just like woke up

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Speaker 3: late and didn't make.

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Speaker 1: It or I mean, this was a government expedition, and

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Speaker 1: so I think they were like government hold ups and

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Speaker 1: I don't know one thing or another. And then temperature

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Speaker 1: is different between years, and they just thought they'd be okay,

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Speaker 1: but they weren't, and so by the time they got there,

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Speaker 1: they hit a wall of ice and they were like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: we can't get there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if I send people to a very unpleasant

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Speaker 3: place and they're relying on my resupply, then I'm sending

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Speaker 3: that resupply like a little early, yeah, just to make sure.

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Speaker 3: So like this is kind of shocking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it is shocking.

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Speaker 1: And really's wife was mortified and very angry. So there

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Speaker 1: was a like letter writing campaign and the people in

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Speaker 1: charge were like, Okay, next year, we promise we'll send

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Speaker 1: it sooner.

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Speaker 3: Next year, Like can they make it without this resupply ship?

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Speaker 3: Is this just like extra biscuits and coffee or is

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Speaker 3: it like essential supplies?

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Speaker 1: So they did plan ahead knowing that it's possible that

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Speaker 1: the mission wasn't going to get through, and so they

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Speaker 1: had enough food to get them through a year if

444
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 1: the resupply mission didn't make it through. But they knew

445
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 1: that by year two, if they didn't get a resupply mission,

446
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 1: they were going to need to abandon the station and

447
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,199
Speaker 1: like high tail it out for an area where they

448
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,879
Speaker 1: were more likely to get rescued and maybe there'd be

449
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 1: some resupplies along the way where boats would have left. Like,

450
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,800
Speaker 1: this is as close as we could get, So we

451
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 1: dumped the food here with like a flag. The plan

452
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 1: was like, if you don't get resplies for two years,

453
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 1: then you need to go out and try to get help.

454
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,199
Speaker 3: And were there any resources there? I mean, is it

455
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,240
Speaker 3: just completely barren where they were or could they like

456
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 3: hunt polar bears?

457
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were hunting.

458
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 1: They were hunting wolves and foxes, and on this mission

459
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 1: they didn't to eat their dogs, which is nice because

460
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,919
Speaker 1: I don't think they wanted to do that, so they

461
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 1: were able to do some hunting, which was also nice

462
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 1: for like getting out and mental health and stuff like that.

463
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,320
Speaker 1: So they were able to resupply themselves a little bit.

464
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: But the big problem came in year two where they

465
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,920
Speaker 1: sent out two boats and for a variety of reasons,

466
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 1: like one hadn't been retrofitted soon enough, because you need

467
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: really strong boats because you're gonna have to sometimes like

468
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,919
Speaker 1: crush through the ice to try to get forward if

469
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 1: you think the ice is thin enough, and so for

470
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,359
Speaker 1: like a variety of fumbles, they kind of left laid again,

471
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 1: oh man, and one boat was like I'm going forward anyway,

472
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,120
Speaker 1: and then that one got stuck in the ice and

473
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 1: sank to the bottom of the sea with a lot

474
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 1: of the food.

475
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 4: Oh.

476
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 3: Grieley's wife must appended a really grumpy letter after that. Huh.

477
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 1: She was not so happy about the way this was

478
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: all working out. It's so sad reading about it, you know,

479
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 1: Like they were standing on a hill looking hoping to

480
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 1: see the ship, because there was a period where it

481
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 1: looked like things were opening up and the ship could

482
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 1: have gotten through, but like the food never came.

483
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 3: Why don't they resupply in the summer. This is crazy.

484
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 3: Why wait for the ice to be forming so you

485
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:08,120
Speaker 3: have to race against the ice.

486
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,199
Speaker 1: They were trying to like leave in the summer, but

487
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 1: it's a long journey at a time where a boat

488
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,239
Speaker 1: rides are slow, and they got out later than they

489
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 1: had planned on in both instances, and so even though

490
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 1: they should have left earlier, by the time they left,

491
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: it was too late and it just didn't work out.

492
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,679
Speaker 3: So is this resupply boat still like on the bottom

493
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,679
Speaker 3: of the ocean or did somebody eventually find it and

494
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 3: pull it up.

495
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 5: I don't know.

496
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: So it was the Polaris, and it's not one of

497
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 1: the more famous ships to have gone to the Arctic,

498
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 1: and so I don't know if anyone's bothered to pull

499
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 1: it up, so it might still be there, I'm not sure.

500
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,119
Speaker 3: It's amazing to me how hard it is to bring

501
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 3: up a shipwreck, which means that like the Earth is

502
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,640
Speaker 3: covered in shipwrecks, many of which maybe nobody can get

503
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 3: to or nobody ever will, which contained like vast riches

504
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 3: and archaeological and sociological stuff that would be super revealing

505
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 3: about the time. It's fascinating how close it is and

506
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,160
Speaker 3: yet how inaccessible some of this stuff is yeah, but.

507
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:01,439
Speaker 2: Like it totally makes sense to me.

508
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 1: Like when I wear a wet suit and I'm like

509
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: in the water and I go to stand up, if

510
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 1: the wetsuit is open a little bit and some water

511
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: gets in there, like it's much harder.

512
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 2: Like water is really heavy when it gets inside stuff.

513
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:12,880
Speaker 1: It makes sense to me that it would be hard

514
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: to lift a boat out if it's stuck, and then

515
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: it's got all that water and the boat is heavy

516
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: on its own, And so I think you'd rather just

517
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: get the gold and leave the boat if.

518
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 3: You can, or the coffee or whatever's down there.

519
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, definitely, you don't want to lose the

520
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,160
Speaker 1: coffeeld though now it's maybe a little salty, little less good,

521
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 1: all right.

522
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,479
Speaker 3: So Greeley goes out there. They try to resupply him twice,

523
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 3: fail twice. What does he do. Does he decide he's

524
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 3: going to live off polar bears forever or does he

525
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 3: head home?

526
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: So there's a disagreement in the crew. Some of the

527
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 1: crew think, like, look, we can make this polar bear

528
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: thing work. Let's just stay here for another year. But

529
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: Greeley is a rule follower in the army, and so

530
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: he's like, no, we said that if the resupply didn't

531
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 1: come in two years, we were gonna leave and like

532
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,360
Speaker 1: meet everybody at this spot. And so he followed the rules,

533
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: and there were twenty five men that set out, and

534
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 1: they were able to get like a I think it's

535
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 1: called a cash where like some food got left for

536
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: them and they found some of it. But in the end,

537
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: out of the twenty five that set out, only seven

538
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 1: of them survived and the rest of them died from

539
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 1: starvation and exposure.

540
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 2: So it was bad.

541
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 3: I mean, I've messed up research projects before, but nobody

542
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 3: ever died because I was too late to file a

543
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 3: report or run some calculation or something.

544
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: This is why I decided to not be an er surgeon,

545
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: because I thought, you know, like there's gonna be a

546
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: day where something goes wrong and someone dies and maybe

547
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: you could have done something about it. And I don't

548
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: know that I can handle that. Like major props to

549
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: the people who do. We obviously need those jobs, but

550
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't think I want that on

551
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: my shoulders, and really had a lot of deaths on

552
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 1: his shoulders.

553
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 3: I feel the same way you do. I couldn't handle

554
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 3: this sort of mental load of knowing that my decisions

555
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 3: caused somebody to die, even if there are also days

556
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 3: where like, I've saved somebody's life. That's one reason why

557
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 3: I ended up in particle physics, because I felt like

558
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 3: there's no chance anything I do is ever going to

559
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 3: impact humanity really in any way, not even like being

560
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 3: able to develop new weapons, you know, like my parents

561
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 3: were in the weapons program, and obviously there are big

562
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 3: moral consequences there because they're developing literal weapons of mass

563
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 3: destruction pointed at civilian populations. And so I decided to

564
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 3: be totally irrelevant. But then later when I grew up,

565
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 3: I thought, hm, it's kind of weird. Other friends I

566
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 3: have have actually useful skills that can help people and

567
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 3: save lives and whatever. I thought that might be nice,

568
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 3: but it does protect you against the days where oops,

569
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 3: I didn't get enough coffee and I actually cut off

570
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 3: the wrong thing.

571
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I made a lot of the same calculations, and

572
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: I'm totally happy where I am. I'm totally happy being

573
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: mostly irrelevant but sometimes amusing.

574
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 2: That's fine with me. I hope I make some people

575
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 2: chuckle sometimes and nobody.

576
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: Die, that's right. Anyway, these aren't the lessons of Daniel

577
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 3: and Kelly's career choices. We're trying to learn from Greeley's expeditions.

578
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 3: So a lot of people died, very few made it back,

579
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 3: and largely because they weren't resupplied.

580
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: Is that right, Yeah, So there's two lessons to get

581
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: from this, and the first lesson is all about resupply.

582
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: So just like a to Mars, there's like windows of

583
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: time where resupply ships can leave and things go wrong,

584
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: so you need to be self sufficient. So you know,

585
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: you could imagine with SpaceX if that window that opens

586
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: up once every two years to send a resupply mission,

587
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 1: you can imagine things going wrong and making it so

588
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: that resupply doesn't show up. For example, maybe China attacks

589
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: Taiwan and the special computer chips that are made in

590
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: Taiwan can no longer be purchased, and maybe that's a

591
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: problem for SpaceX. Or maybe SpaceX goes bankrupt and they're

592
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: the only ones with the technology to get a resupply

593
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: ship to Mars right now, or a musk decides to

594
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: invest all of his money in X and you're just

595
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: left there.

596
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: But let's back up a second and think about why

597
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 3: you need a resupply. I mean, the polar analog is

598
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: interesting because those guys needed a resupply even though they

599
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: could hunt locally. Right now, clearly on Mars there are

600
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: not polar bears. We're not aware of any large mammals

601
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 3: you can eat. But technology is also improved. Is it

602
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: absolutely clear that a Martian mission will need to be resupplied?

603
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 3: Is it possible to just send a bunch of people

604
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 3: there and have them be self sufficient from the get go.

605
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that is a great question and maybe something

606
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: you should try to plan for, especially if your goal

607
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: is to have like a settlement, or you could just

608
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 1: pack two extra years worth of freeze dried foods and

609
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: plan ahead of time for them and not expire.

610
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 3: Polar bear jerky. I bet that's pretty good.

611
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, delicious. I mean, I think you'd need a

612
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: lot of space to do essentially subsistence farming for four

613
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: people and survive just on that. So that would be

614
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: a pretty massive undertaking. But you know, maybe you want

615
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: to try to pack enough to buy yourself time for

616
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: that next open window, or pack cyanide pills.

617
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: Got dark?

618
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 3: I thought first you were going to go into the

619
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 3: like maybe you should bring spices that would help you

620
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 3: when you need to, you know, draw straws and decide

621
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 3: who's going to be dinner and who's going to be

622
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 3: at dinner.

623
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 4: You know.

624
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: I was reading this book by Eric Seahouse that was

625
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 1: all about like lessons you can learn from polar expeditions,

626
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: and I was really surprised at how little he talked

627
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: about behavioral things that you could learn. But he brought

628
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: up cannibalism like a bunch of times. And in this

629
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: book he kept being like, in this generation, they're all

630
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of whims. And he had a whole section

631
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: where he talks about how like, okay, say you do

632
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: run out of food and you look across the table

633
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: and you're like, there's food.

634
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, who goes first?

635
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: And he was like, well, the biggest one should go

636
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: first because they require the most calories and can provide

637
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: the most calories, which made me wonder if he's kind

638
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: of like a short guy, and he's like and there's

639
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: a bit of a bias there, but you know, the

640
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: math checks out. But then he went and he talked

641
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: about how you could like three D print the stuff

642
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: that you'd need to like.

643
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: Butcher a body, and I was.

644
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: Like, I would not invite Eric's seathouse on my knision,

645
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: like he is not coming with me.

646
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 3: Well, it seems like there are nuances there also, like

647
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 3: do you need to eat a whole person? Can't you

648
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 3: just be like, hey man, you don't need both of

649
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 3: those legs, or you know, let's cut a hunk out

650
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 3: of that buttock or something. Right, there are ways somebody

651
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: could survive and still provide you food.

652
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: Sure, those would be some very difficult conversations.

653
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 3: So did Greeley do any of that? Do you think

654
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 3: there's any cannibalism? I mean people died, right, and other

655
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 3: people were starving where they tempted to, like, you know,

656
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 3: cook up their mates and have them for a snack.

657
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: So this is a pretty big controversy actually, and we're

658
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: going to return to it after.

659
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 4: The break, all right.

660
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: I know everybody's dying to know about cannibalism on the

661
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,239
Speaker 1: Greeley expedition. So the answer is, we really don't know.

662
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: It sounds like really genuinely was not aware of it happening.

663
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: But all of the bodies of his crew were brought

664
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: back to the US and some doctors thought that there

665
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: were signs on some of the bones that could have

666
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: been indicative of flesh being cut away to be eaten,

667
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: and so there were some grumblings about possible cannibalism. But

668
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: it's thought that even if the evidence was pretty good,

669
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: the government tried to cover it up because they wanted

670
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: this to be an uplifting story about how it seven

671
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: people got saved, not a story about cannibalism in an

672
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: army expedition.

673
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 3: So it's unclear an uplifting story about how we failed

674
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: to resupply twenty five people and most of them died.

675
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: What's been that just slighting scale. I guess some of

676
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: them made it back. I think they were really clinging

677
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: to the silver lining, all.

678
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 3: Right, So then, what wo do you say is the

679
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: lesson we learn from the polar chips about how to

680
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 3: resupply stuff on Mars, make it self sufficient, building lots

681
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: of buffer. What can we do other than thinking, wow,

682
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: you got to be brave to go on one of

683
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: these missions.

684
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: You know it's going to be really hard to pack

685
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,479
Speaker 1: enough resupply to get a crew through an extra two years,

686
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: and that would be extremely expensive to do. But I

687
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: think you really need to think through how do we

688
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: make sure the resupply gets there. Can we give them

689
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: enough extra supplies where it would be okay if we

690
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: missed one launch window? What would that look like? Could

691
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: we have like a backup plan where maybe the next

692
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: mission won't be crude, but we have like duplicate rock

693
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: gets that just send food that we can dump somewhere

694
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: on the Martian surface. You got a plan for things

695
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: going wrong, and it's going to be even more complicated

696
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: for a mission to Mars.

697
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 3: Well, it sounds like we should pack some cyanide pills.

698
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: You know, it might not be a bad idea.

699
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,959
Speaker 3: Put that on the indoor husband's to do list, all right?

700
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 3: So what other kinds of lessons can we learn from

701
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 3: polar expeditions other than just like, resupply is crucial and

702
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: it's really hard.

703
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 1: So Greeley had a big problem on his expedition, which

704
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: is that he had at least three crew members who

705
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,239
Speaker 1: were just not listening, not behaving, and he had no

706
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: ability to punish them.

707
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: So his engineer, of which he.

708
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: Brought one was an alcoholic, and when it was time

709
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: for them to leave the research station to try to

710
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: like go get help, he kept drinking the fuel alcohol

711
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: would and they needed that for their ships and to

712
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: cook their food, and at one point he's drunk it

713
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: he grounds the boat and Greeley is like, I'm gonna

714
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: shoot you, but then he realizes, like I can't because

715
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: I have one engineer and I need this guy, and

716
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: he didn't have a backup plan, so he like made

717
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: a note in a notebook like we're gonna talk about

718
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: this with the government when we get home, and like

719
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: the guy just kept doing it, he kept stealing the

720
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: fuel alcohol. He ended up being one of the first

721
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: to die, which kind of solved that problem sort of

722
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: in the harsh you know, math of the Arctic, but.

723
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 3: It doesn't solve the we still need an engineer problem, right.

724
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: No, that's true, but at that point a couple other

725
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: people had learned those skills, which is something they should

726
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: have done before they left. So like less than one

727
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: duplicate skills, you need to have like multiple people who

728
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: know how to do the same job because you never

729
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen. And so he had a similar

730
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: skill problem with the doctor, who around year two was like,

731
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want to do this anymore

732
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: and really was like, dude, we wouldn't have hired you

733
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: if you were going to quit halfway through, you have

734
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: to keep going. And he's like, I'm gonna arrest you

735
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: if you don't. And the guy's like, how can you

736
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: arrest me? We're in the middle of nowhere, and really

737
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: was like, no, I can't, and he like he didn't

738
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: provide any details.

739
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: What was this guy's plan. He's like, I'm with you

740
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 3: on this mission, but I'm gonna stop being a doctor,

741
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: or I'm just like gonna walk home myself. Like the

742
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: guy's kind of stuck, isn't he.

743
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: That is what I would have thought if I was

744
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: in that position. But I think he was just like

745
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: I just want to chill, I want less work. You

746
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: still have to take care of me. But also he

747
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: was involved in like some mutinous conversations. There was like

748
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: somebody else he wanted to take control because they thought

749
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: really wasn't doing a great job, and so the doctor

750
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: was offering to diagnose Greeley as being like mentally unstable

751
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: so that somebody else could take over. And really got

752
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: word that this sort of mutinous talk was happening, but

753
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: he didn't do anything because he didn't have a lot

754
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: of options. Oh man, And then the worst thing the

755
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: doctor did. In my mind, there was one guy who

756
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: was like really sick, he had gotten frostbite, and the

757
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: doctor was like, look, I know we're all on rations,

758
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: we're all starving to death, but this guy, if he's

759
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: gonna make it, he needs extra food. So can we

760
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: please give this guy extra food? And everybody's like, yes,

761
00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: we want to save this guy, Let's give him some

762
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: extra food. And then Greeley saw the doctor eating the

763
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: extra food that was meant to be for.

764
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 4: The other pagion. I know he's such a jerk.

765
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 2: He doesn't make it either, but there's nothing that he

766
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: could do.

767
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: And then the last guy, and this is why cru

768
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: selection is important, turned out that this guy had been

769
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: in jail for forging a check and then when he

770
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: got out in jail, he killed a man and then

771
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: he changed his name.

772
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: And he made it on the Greeley expedition. So not

773
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: a great guy.

774
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 3: And as they're all starting, I think needs a better

775
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 3: vetting system, like, you know, weed these people out before

776
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: you take them on the mission, right, well.

777
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: And so NASA has like a very stringent system for

778
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: how they pick people who get to go to space,

779
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: and so what makes me nervous is that when we

780
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: start to open it up to like muscle, say, well,

781
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: anyone who can afford to go? Who are the people

782
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: who are trying to escape earth? Like, no doubt there's

783
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: a lot of like dreamers and researchers and big thinkers,

784
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: but maybe there's also people who are just like trying

785
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: to escape the law. So you're gonna have to be

786
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: careful with who goes. But this guy's stealing their food

787
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: while everyone's starving to death, and he at one point

788
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: gets caught because he snuck in ate some raw bacon,

789
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: and then everybody was like, where'd.

790
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:04,959
Speaker 4: The bacon go?

791
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: And eating raw bacon had upset this guy's stomach, so

792
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: he threw it up and they were like, oh, there's

793
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: the bacon, and so then he couldn't like pretend he

794
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: hadn't stolen it.

795
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: I wait, I have a gross question. Are they so

796
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 3: hungry that like vomited up raw bacon is still something

797
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,479
Speaker 3: you might consider like cooking up.

798
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: I don't know.

799
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: They had eaten fungus cover dog treats. At one point,

800
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: when they'd shoot an animal, they would start like licking

801
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: the blood, like and they were eating moss.

802
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 3: They'd like boiling their shoes to make tea and stuff. Right,

803
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 3: these folks are desperate, so at some point even vomited

804
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: up bacon might be quite a delicacy.

805
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: They are eating the leather in their clothes by the end. Yeah,

806
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: So the book did not specifically talk about the fate

807
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: of the regurgitated bacon. It wouldn't surprise me if it

808
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: had been distanmed, because when you're dying elite like anything,

809
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: which I think is something we've talked about before, we

810
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: have themes.

811
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 3: Imagine going to a restaurants seeing this stuff the menu,

812
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 3: like shoe tea or fungus covered dog treats or once

813
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: vomited bacon. It's amazing what people will eat though, when

814
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: they got.

815
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: To survive, right, Yeah, yeah, the drive to live is

816
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: pretty incredible.

817
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 3: But this is mostly a lesson about picking your crew

818
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 3: and what you can do when you're out there. I mean,

819
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 3: this guy's the captain of the ship. Doesn't he basically

820
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 3: have complete authority that can't he excute people if he

821
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 3: has to in order for the mission to succeed.

822
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: So, yes, he has that power, but he was a

823
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: little concerned that if he exercised that power would reflect

824
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: poorly on the mission. So he held back for a

825
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: long time, but this guy who was stealing the food,

826
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: he was getting stronger while everybody was getting weaker because

827
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: they weren't eating, but this guy was eating more. So

828
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: eventually g really was like, all right, we're gonna have

829
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: to shoot this guy. And he couldn't do it because

830
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: he was too weak to get up. So he told

831
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: two other guys like, you've got to go shoot I

832
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: think the guy who's the last name was Henry, and

833
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: they did, and so eventually justice in a way was served.

834
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,320
Speaker 1: What are the lessons here? So one, you need job redundancy,

835
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: because this got really in a hole a bunch of times.

836
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: There were a lot of times where he clearly should

837
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: have punished someone or locked them up, but he's like

838
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: he needed their skills.

839
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 3: So you're saying we need like two engineers and two

840
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,959
Speaker 3: doctors and two cooks or whatever.

841
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: Or you at least need skill redundancy, where like maybe

842
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 1: your doctor also knows the main tasks of the engineer,

843
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: and the engineer knows a lot of what the navigator

844
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: needs to do, and so you know, I mean, I

845
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: feel like in an ideal world, you'd be able to

846
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: bring like a couple of all of these people, but

847
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: probably are just going to need to have redundancy and

848
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: skills within the crew.

849
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: So everybody's got to be a doctor slash cook slash engineer.

850
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: Which requires a lot of prior planning, and I think

851
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: NASA does do that kind of like cross training ahead

852
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: of time. But you know, it would be good if

853
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: Musk also had that kind of stuff on his mind. Also,

854
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: there was no jail cell, which kind of limited his

855
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: options for what he could do. But he also couldn't

856
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: afford to lock up members of the crew all out

857
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: of the time, Like if he locked up the engineer,

858
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: then he still can't use the engineer's skills.

859
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 3: Wait, but help me imagine where they are. I mean,

860
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 3: they're on a polar expedition. Are they sleeping in tents?

861
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 3: And they built some sort of temporary structure. I realized

862
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 3: now I don't have like a mental image of where

863
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:15,479
Speaker 3: these folks are living.

864
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: So initially they were living in a research station where

865
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: they probably could have like walled off part of it

866
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: to make a jail cell.

867
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 3: To research station is like a building. Somebody built a

868
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 3: building out there.

869
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.

870
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: They brought building supplies and they put it together. And

871
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: it was a nice station. Actually, in a future expedition,

872
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: I think it was Perry who stopped by and credited

873
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: his survival with being able to like hang out in

874
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: this station that had been so well built that like

875
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: years later he could still go there to warm up.

876
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: Indoors aren't nice places, yes, yeah, pro indoors, all right,

877
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 3: So they had indoors on this research station. That's great.

878
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, my indoor husband would love that.

879
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 3: So if you could get him out there, that's right.

880
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:51,959
Speaker 1: But you know, then at some point they are living

881
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: in a tent and so a jail cell would have

882
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: been difficult, but a plan would have been helpful. He

883
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 1: should have been able to see that this was a

884
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: possibility that would come up that they wouldn't be able

885
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: to like put someone in a jail cell and have

886
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: a way to deal with it instead of making a

887
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: note that like, oh, I'm gonna tell the government that

888
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: you engage in mutiny when we get home.

889
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: But for right now, we've got nothing.

890
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: And so you know, on early naval expeditions, flogging is

891
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: something that they would do. It was like a quick

892
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: thing where you like really hurt someone enough that they

893
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: don't want to do the thing again. But then they

894
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: can go right back to work and you don't need

895
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: to like confine them in a certain area. And I'm

896
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: not saying that I am pro corporal punishment. I'm giving

897
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: the history of punishment options, but like, whatever they decide

898
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: to do, they needed to have a clearer plan and

899
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: really needed to feel like he was empowered to carry

900
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: through on those plans, and it just seemed like that

901
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: did not happen for this mission.

902
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting that people would act this way on

903
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 3: this mission because it feels like sort of counter to

904
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: their own interests. I mean, everybody's got to pull their

905
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: weight for this whole mission to succeed, and this mission

906
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 3: has to succeed for be able to survive, So it

907
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 3: feels like that would provide a lot of pressure for

908
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 3: people to toe the line and be part of the

909
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 3: team and stuff. That's amazing to me that even under

910
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 3: those conditions, some folks are like stealing the bacon and

911
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 3: deciding to not do their job anymore.

912
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: There was a ton of variability actually, so you know,

913
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: there's the guy who's stealing the bacon, but there were

914
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: also members of the crew where like somebody was dying

915
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: because they were starving, and they'd take some of their

916
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: food and they would feed the other person, try to

917
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: like help them, and like there were literally stories about

918
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: them like cradling each other's heads and trying to like

919
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: spoon feed them because they were too weak to eat.

920
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: So, like there was.

921
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: A lot of compassion and a lot of examples of

922
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: people being willing to like risk their lives to help

923
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: other crew members. But then there's the guy who's stealing

924
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: the bacon. And so I think you've got to be

925
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: careful about who you send up there, and then you

926
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: need to have a system for making sure that the

927
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: people who don't behave the way you want them to,

928
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: there's some way to keep them from doing that again.

929
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 3: So Greeley is one example, and he seems like a

930
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 3: little bit of a week leader, Like he had some

931
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 3: of these tools and he didn't use them, and maybe

932
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,479
Speaker 3: that would have helped him keep his crew in line.

933
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 3: Is that a general thing in these polar trips and

934
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: in these crazy expeditions and on you know, long voyages,

935
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: that the CA is not really feeling like they have

936
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 3: these tools of their disposal because it'll ruin morale or whatever.

937
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 3: It's really unusual or this is a common theme.

938
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: The next story we're going to talk about is another

939
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: case where a leader had a little bit of trouble

940
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: maintaining order for a different reason. So it's not like

941
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 1: this is the only story of a leader who has

942
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: sort of trouble with maintaining order, But there were some

943
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: who were definitely more successful. So earned Shackleton, for example,

944
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: when his boat, the Endurance, sunk first, he did a

945
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: really great job of managing the personalities. So there were

946
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: like three or so guys who are just like super

947
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: annoying and super negative, and Shackleton was like, you guys

948
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: are sleeping in my tent. And he just made sure

949
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: that like their negative attitude didn't like seep over into

950
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: the other crew members.

951
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: And he was more willing to threaten people.

952
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: So, for example, there's this story where there was a

953
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: stowaway on the Endurance and they discovered it after they

954
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: had left. It was too late to return the guy

955
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: who had stowed away, and so Shackleton said to him, Okay,

956
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: but if anything goes wrong, you're the first one we're

957
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: gonna eat. And I think threatening ca anibalism is probably

958
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: a pretty good way to keep people in line. And

959
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: he also was better about reminding people about the documents

960
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: they had signed ahead of time where they promised to

961
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: follow the rules, and he was just a bit more assertive.

962
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: All right, So then what's the takeaway. You're planning a

963
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 3: mission to Mars. You're keeping Greeley's experience in mind. You

964
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: have your own experience as a parent flogging your children

965
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 3: when they get out of line, you know, or at

966
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 3: least holding that possibility over there.

967
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: I've never hit my kids, but I think the point

968
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: is you need to have a plan that you are

969
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: willing to execute and that everybody knows could have been

970
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: ahead of time. And that might not solve all of

971
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: the problems, but at least then you've got some path

972
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: forward and some legitimacy.

973
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 3: And you have some credibility that the negative outcomes are

974
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 3: going to keep people in love. Ye yeah, you hope,

975
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 3: you hope. So, yeah, that's a real challenge, you know,

976
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 3: being a leader of a mission like that, you know,

977
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 3: really being willing to follow through on those threats because

978
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 3: otherwise they're empty and then you have no power.

979
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you need to be careful about picking the crew,

980
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: but you also need to be careful about picking the

981
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,439
Speaker 1: leader because you could argue that if Greely had been

982
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: a little bit more assertive and had a little clearer plan,

983
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: maybe some people could have lived longer, and maybe they

984
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: would have made it to the resupply ship. If Henry

985
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: hadn't been stealing food for so long, if the cook

986
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: hadn't been drinking the fuel alcohol that they needed, you know,

987
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: to keep warm and stuff like that.

988
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 2: You need a leader who's willing to follow through on

989
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 2: this stuff.

990
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 3: I mean, I know, as apparent, you don't make threats

991
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 3: you're not willing to follow through on because sometimes you

992
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 3: have to. And if you're like, finish your dinner and

993
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 3: nobody's going to go into that movie and you're like,

994
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 3: oh man, I kind of wanted to go to that movie.

995
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 3: You got to be willing to do it.

996
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: You know, those moments suck.

997
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: I hate those moments where I'm like, oh no, I

998
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: don't get to do what I want to do because

999
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: I'm punishing you. Or the moments where you know your

1000
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: kid really wants to do something and you want to

1001
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: let them do it, but you're like, yeah, you kept pushing.

1002
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: I remember once my daughter like I told her, you

1003
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: do that again. Blah blah Blah's gonna happen. And she

1004
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: looked me in the eye and she said the thing again,

1005
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: and I was like, I have conflicted feelings. On the

1006
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: one hand, Wow, that took some hutzba. I'm proud of

1007
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: you for like being tough. But on the other hand,

1008
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: go to your room. You're not going to the campout

1009
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, interesting watching them grow, right, stuff out.

1010
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: It's a wonderful challenge everyone. Yes, all right, So what

1011
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 3: else do we learn from the polar expeditions. We talked

1012
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 3: about resupply, we talked about punishment and management. What else

1013
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 3: do we need to worry about on our Martian mission

1014
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 3: that we can learn about from our polar experiences.

1015
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to take a break and then we're

1016
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: going to talk about how psychology can be a problem

1017
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: on polar missions.

1018
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: All right, we're back.

1019
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 1: So the last example for today is the Moss and Expedition.

1020
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: And this is a guy from Australia who went down

1021
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: to Antarctica around nineteen eleven to collect a bunch of

1022
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: scientific information about Antarctica. So this is another like, it's

1023
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,399
Speaker 1: not a race to the pole, it's just going out

1024
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: there to try to collect data about this difficult environment

1025
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: and he had a really hard time. Like he went

1026
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: out with these other two guys. One of the guys

1027
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: fell through a crack in the ice and they just

1028
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: never saw him again because he fell down through the

1029
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: ice so far with like a bunch of their resupply stuff,

1030
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: and so now they like didn't have a lot of food,

1031
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: and they were racing back as fast as they could,

1032
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: and one of the guys just kind of died from

1033
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: hunger and exposure. Mawson, who's, you know, the leader of

1034
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: this expedition, He's trying to race back in time, but

1035
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: he like falls down another one of those like cracks

1036
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: in the ice, but he manages to pull himself up,

1037
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: and when he gets back, he looks out and there's

1038
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: the boat sailing away for the season.

1039
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 2: He had just missed it.

1040
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 3: Oh no, I know.

1041
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: Like so you'd think that he'd be the one who

1042
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: would have a mental break, But it turns out they

1043
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: the crew hadn't given up on him. So they left

1044
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: some men behind to watch out to see if Mawson

1045
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: and the rest of the guys on his expedition got

1046
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: back there. And they had resupplied enough to get them

1047
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 1: over the winter. And so they've got this chance right,

1048
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: and the boat's gonna come back. And so Mawson's there

1049
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 1: with some other guys, and one of the guys there

1050
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: was a twenty nine year old names need Jeffries, and

1051
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: he was the only guy there who knew how to

1052
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: use the wireless telegraphy system, so he was the only

1053
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: one who could communicate with the outside world. And Jeffries

1054
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: started to have a mental break. He starts trying to

1055
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: start fights with people. He's like, I could tell you're

1056
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: trying to be a jerk. Let's go to the other

1057
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: room and fight. And the other guy's like, I don't

1058
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,240
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Man, I'm reading a book

1059
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: and he's just like trying to chill. And then at

1060
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: one point Jeffries is challenging other people to duels and

1061
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 1: so they have to lock up all of the weapons.

1062
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: At one point, he's telling Mawson about a disease he

1063
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: had of the type that we usually don't talk about

1064
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: in polite conversation.

1065
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 3: Does it come from fluid transmission?

1066
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 2: It does come from fluid transmission. Yes, that's right to theme.

1067
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 3: Yes, be careful of those indoor husbands, some of them

1068
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 3: are diseased.

1069
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, probably some of the indoor wives too.

1070
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: You just you know, you gotta watch out. So Mawson

1071
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 1: goes to talk to the doctor and is like, okay,

1072
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: so you know, Jeffries has that disease, and the doctor's like, no,

1073
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: that's a hallucination. Nothing is wrong with him in that regard.

1074
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: There was no dirty indoor wives causing any problems. And

1075
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: then Jeffries also starts storing his urine because he thinks

1076
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 1: there's some like medical reason he should be doing that.

1077
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: He also stops bathing. He's letting his hygiene go, so

1078
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: he smells bad. But perhaps most importantly, he's in control

1079
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: of the communication system, and he starts telling the outside

1080
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 1: world that actually everybody but him has lost their mind

1081
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: and everybody's trying to kill him, and he won't let

1082
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: anybody else communicate with the outside world. And so what

1083
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: is the lesson here? So this guy, you know, when

1084
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: he gets back to Australia, it turns out he needs

1085
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: to end up an asylum. He spends the rest of

1086
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: his life there. He probably had the onset of something

1087
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: like schizophrenia, which happens often in your early thirties. This

1088
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: guy was twenty nine years old, and so I think

1089
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: the lesson here is one, if you take young people

1090
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: with you, there are a fair number of diseases that

1091
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: don't become apparent until you're like in your thirties, and

1092
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 1: so there's some ants that you're going to be dealing

1093
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: with these problems when you're in this harsh environment. But

1094
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 1: more importantly, people break sometimes, Like even people who don't

1095
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: have like underlying mental health issues will break under difficult conditions.

1096
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: And so you need to have a system, which means

1097
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: you need to, you know, maybe have some therapists with

1098
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: you on the trip, or you need to try to

1099
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: see if you can get some shelf stable medication that

1100
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: you can send with you, Like, you need to have

1101
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: a plan for what happens when things go wrong, because

1102
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: even the humans that seem the most stable when you

1103
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: hire them onto the crew, they're not necessarily going to

1104
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: stay stable the whole time.

1105
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 3: But some people survive this experience without their minds cracking.

1106
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 3: Is it thought that this guy was more susceptible to

1107
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: it he already had these mental issues and this tough

1108
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 3: experience brought it out, or was he like totally saying

1109
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 3: and the experience itself just broke him.

1110
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: I don't think we have great information about what this

1111
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: guy was like before the trip. It could be that

1112
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: this experience broke him. Although he did volunteer to be

1113
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: one of the people who stayed, he must have kind

1114
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: of felt like he had a handle on the situation. So,

1115
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: first of all, we read a bunch of astronaut memoirs,

1116
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 1: and a bunch of astronauts lie about their mental health.

1117
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: It totally makes sense because if they say I'm feeling anxious,

1118
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: maybe they don't get to go on another trip to space, right,

1119
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 1: so they have every incentive to say that they're fine.

1120
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 1: And so there's plenty of stories. A lot of the

1121
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: stories are medical, like there was a guy who thought

1122
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: he was going to have a heart attack a couple

1123
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: days before he was supposed to go up to space,

1124
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: but he lied and went to a doctor covertly and

1125
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: didn't tell anyone else about it because he didn't want

1126
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 1: anyone to know. And then there's also people who passed

1127
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: the tests maybe really were fine, and then break later.

1128
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: So for example, Lisa Noak was a NASA astronaut. She

1129
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: went up on the Shuttle, she started dating one of

1130
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: the Shuttle astronauts. He left her for another woman and

1131
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: she tried to kidnap the other woman, and it's not

1132
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: clear what she planned on doing with her after that,

1133
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: And so is this the one.

1134
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 3: Who drove cross country wearing astronaut underwear?

1135
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: So she would say that actually she hadn't worn it,

1136
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: and that she had twins, and that those diapers were

1137
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: from a prior trip she went on. Then she just

1138
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: forgot to throw them out. But yes, I think that's

1139
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: exactly what happens. She had rubber tubing, and she was

1140
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: arguing like I was using the rubber tubing for exercise,

1141
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: like it was a tension thing. And it seems pretty

1142
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: clear that she was planning on trying to kidnap this woman,

1143
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: and it's not clear what she was going to do

1144
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: with her after that.

1145
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 3: I think the lesson is, don't date astronauts, or don't

1146
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 3: date people who have the mental fortitude to go in

1147
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 3: these missions, because there's clearly something weird about those folks,

1148
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 3: you know. More power to them, and I'm glad that

1149
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 3: we have them, and we've learned so much about the

1150
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 3: polls and we potentially will learn a lot about Mars.

1151
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 3: But I'm not sure those folks need to be in

1152
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 3: the reproductive pool.

1153
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know.

1154
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of people who would say

1155
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: that astronauts are like the best of us. I don't

1156
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of people advocating for pulling them

1157
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: out of the gene pool.

1158
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 2: You might be on your own there.

1159
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 3: It's interesting because if we build a colony, it's going

1160
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 3: to be populated by those folks, and they're going to

1161
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 3: be reproducing. And so if it takes a certain kind

1162
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 3: of person to be willing to go on that mission,

1163
00:49:56,840 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 3: then your colony is going to be filled with those

1164
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 3: folks the same way that like colonies a few hundred

1165
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 3: years ago required some fortitude and some risk taking. And

1166
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 3: they're definitely not representative samples of other countries, right sure.

1167
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: But then also they'll have kids, and maybe their kids

1168
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: will be more like a representative sample from the country

1169
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: that they came from. And I think, no matter who

1170
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: you send, you need to have a system in place

1171
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 1: for what happens when someone has a mental health crisis,

1172
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: because I just think that it's unavoidable no matter who

1173
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: you pick, that at some point there's going to be

1174
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: a problem with someone, and on the iss they have

1175
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: a system, you're supposed to tie somebody up, put a

1176
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: towel underneath their chin and duct tape their head to

1177
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: something so that they can't move, and then I think

1178
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: you're supposed to offer them like an oral something like

1179
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: a tranquilizer to calm them down, and if they refuse,

1180
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: you can also like inject it. And so essentially the

1181
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: plan for the International Space Station is to just immobilize

1182
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,399
Speaker 1: someone until you can get them home, which will only

1183
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 1: take a couple days. But it gets much more complicated

1184
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: if you're stuck on Mars for two years and you're

1185
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 1: worried that they're going to try to hurt themselves or

1186
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: hurt somebody else. Usually it's hurt themselves, not hurt somebody else.

1187
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: But like having a system in place, like are you

1188
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: just going to trank someone for a year and a half.

1189
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: That doesn't seem feasible or good for the person being

1190
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: knocked out for that long.

1191
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 3: No, but it might solve some of your other problems,

1192
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 3: like hey, this person turns out to be dinner right,

1193
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 3: they go crazy, or they break the rules like oh,

1194
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 3: maybe we don't need a resupply.

1195
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: You should be going to space. You are apparently comfortable

1196
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,760
Speaker 1: with any of the difficult decisions that need to be made.

1197
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: I'm not sure i'd want to be on your crew,

1198
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: but I think maybe.

1199
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 2: You should go.

1200
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 3: No, I'm comfortable having a podcast conversation about these difficult decisions,

1201
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 3: but when rubber hits the road, or you know, ice

1202
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 3: hits the tent, I think it'd be a lot harder

1203
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 3: to do than it is to talk about.

1204
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough.

1205
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: So those are the lessons for today. You know, when

1206
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: you read about these stories, there is a lot of

1207
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,720
Speaker 1: really exciting, inspirational stuff that's going on, people really pushing

1208
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: the limits and people who are just really excited about

1209
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: getting answers, doing like whatever it takes to get those answers.

1210
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 2: But there's also a lot of difficult.

1211
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: Stuff along the way that if you plan for, hopefully

1212
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: you can avoid or at least minimize the negative impacts of.

1213
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: So let's hope that Elon Musk is doing sufficient planning

1214
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,359
Speaker 1: for his first trip to Mars, which is hoping will

1215
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: happen in the next you know, decade or so.

1216
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 3: I think the takeaway from me is that we imagine

1217
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 3: these expeditions to be voyages or scientific journeys, but these

1218
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 3: are people, and these expeditions have people on them. And

1219
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: so they have people problems, and people problems come with

1220
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:21,919
Speaker 3: people and you can't escape them, and so you've got

1221
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: to be prepared for them. You know, people got to

1222
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 3: go to the bathroom, and people are going to be

1223
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 3: jealous and mad and go crazy. And you can't pretend

1224
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 3: that just because you have noble goals that are universal

1225
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 3: or deep unfundamental, that you're somehow just going to magically

1226
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 3: avoid those issues. So yeah, you got to be prepared.

1227
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 3: Bring your astronaut underwear and bring your astronaut tranquilizer amen.

1228
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: I think, especially with space, people tend to project utopias

1229
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: and think that everything's going to be great up there.

1230
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: But I think humans are going to bring all their

1231
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: problems with us into the heavens and we need to plan,

1232
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: all right.

1233
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 3: Thanks everyone for taking this voyage into our historical expeditions

1234
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 3: and what we can learn from history about the problems

1235
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 3: we'll face in the future when humans we hope one

1236
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 3: day to start to colonize the Solar System.

1237
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

1238
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,320
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1239
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,239
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1240
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 3: Extraordinary universe.

1241
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,200
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1242
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:26,200
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1243
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,640
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1244
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,359
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1245
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,480
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1246
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,760
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1247
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,640
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1248
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:41,680
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1249
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,600
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1250
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,279
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