Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast, and this is Fast Politics,
Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
Speaker 1: today's best minds. And RFK has finally admitted that he
Speaker 1: has brighten worms. We always knew it to be true.
Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today. State
Speaker 1: Senator Tony Vargas stops by to talk about running for
Speaker 1: Congress against Congressman Don Bacon in Nebraska.
Speaker 2: Then we'll talk to the New York Times.
Speaker 1: Frank Bruney about his new book, The Age of Grievance.
Speaker 1: But first we have the host of the Bulwark Daily podcast,
Speaker 1: The Bullworks, Tim Miller.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics. Tim Miller, it's good to
Speaker 2: be back.
Speaker 3: Mollie John Fast.
Speaker 1: It's good to have you. So tell me if you
Speaker 1: think this is crazy. This is the thing I've been
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about. Is like there's such vibe based
Speaker 1: feeling every day in this fucking run up to the
Speaker 1: forever election.
Speaker 2: But you know, you check in with people and they're like,
Speaker 2: oh my god.
Speaker 1: You know I have a friend who is like ambassadors
Speaker 1: are trying to find trumpy ambassadors so that when Trump
Speaker 1: comes back into power these countries and you know he's
Speaker 1: not going to win, and my friend went to Alabama
Speaker 1: and da da da, like I feel like and then
Speaker 1: the next day everyone's like, wow, this is working. He
Speaker 1: went to Wisconsin. This new poll out of Wisconsin tros
Speaker 1: he's up six points. Like don't you feel like there's
Speaker 1: sort of a vibe based group think that is hard
Speaker 1: to not engage with.
Speaker 3: I do think that. I think that it is for
Speaker 3: a couple of reasons. One, it's just our social media existence.
Speaker 3: You know, there just wasn't like a need for having
Speaker 3: constant opinions about elections that you know, in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 3: maybe you checked in the morning paper, maybe mention it
Speaker 3: to one guy at work at the lunch room or gal,
Speaker 3: but that was about it. So I think social media
Speaker 3: creates it. And I also think that just fear of
Speaker 3: Trump creates it. Right, I mean right, people are so
Speaker 3: scared about it and so anxious that you know, they're
Speaker 3: looking for a salve, right, They're looking for a fact
Speaker 3: or somebody to give him hope. I'm looking for Simon
Speaker 3: Rosenberg to give him a little hopeum one day and
Speaker 3: then God loves Simon, that's not a criticism. And then
Speaker 3: they're looking like they're trying to come up with, Okay,
Speaker 3: what's my plan, what's my prepper plan for if he
Speaker 3: does if he does win? You know, and like this
Speaker 3: is just and so I think that yields vibe based
Speaker 3: kind of flailing about and the other thing. As you said,
Speaker 3: it's just been a very long election. I mean, like
Speaker 3: we really, in a normal year, the general election would
Speaker 3: just be coming into form. I mean, I'm going for
Speaker 3: memory now, but pretty sure May night, like the Hillary
Speaker 3: Obama race was still going May ninth, I mean it
Speaker 3: was like pretty clear it was Obama at this point,
Speaker 3: but Hillary, I think, was still going. We'll get love
Speaker 3: to fact check that, but you know, I mean some
Speaker 3: of these primaries have been still going at this point
Speaker 3: in the cycle.
Speaker 1: Jesse says that that election was going until June fourth,
Speaker 1: So you were right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jesse's doing it. I just pulled it up to
Speaker 3: Hillary conceded June seventh. It looks like like it was
Speaker 3: officially over June fourth, and she gave her that glass
Speaker 3: ceiling speech June seventh, So that's another month, right, So
Speaker 3: think about that. I mean, like this probably Mary has
Speaker 3: been over.
Speaker 1: It feels like forever, right, and like the eighteen months
Speaker 1: ago a week after Republicans underperformed in that twenty twenty election,
Speaker 1: Trump was like, I got to get in there right,
Speaker 1: largely because he was hoping that if he announced, he
Speaker 1: would avoid criminal prosecution.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he'd avoid going to prosecution, maybe scare some people
Speaker 3: out of running. That didn't work with for DeSantis. Turned
Speaker 3: out he didn't need to worry about scaring tiny d.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean it's been going from before Thanksgiving
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two and all the way to now and
Speaker 3: we still six months, so you know, you need something
Speaker 3: to fill that void when you have this anxiety. There's
Speaker 3: when there's this interest, and there's some people have checked out,
Speaker 3: but we have this interest. The funny thing about it
Speaker 3: is are made. The depressing thing about it is all
Speaker 3: of us who are like super informed, are making, you know,
Speaker 3: our moods are swinging based on the news cycle unbelievably. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and the people who are going to decide the election,
Speaker 3: not all of them, but a big percentage of people
Speaker 3: that are going to decide the election are like what's
Speaker 3: row you know, like literally that there's a small handful
Speaker 3: of swing voters who are highly engaged, but most of
Speaker 3: the swing voters are not that engaged, and so all
Speaker 3: the rest of us are like getting our you know,
Speaker 3: on our anxiety meds over something that the people that
Speaker 3: are actually going to potentially swing the election don't even
Speaker 3: know is happening. So yeah, that's not healthy.
Speaker 2: I think it's a really good point.
Speaker 1: And the thing that people do now, and I wonder
Speaker 1: if this happens to you because you live in a
Speaker 1: totally different state, but in a blue city but in
Speaker 1: a red state. The thing that happens to me now
Speaker 1: is people come over to me and they're like lovely,
Speaker 1: and I'm honored and likes as someone who is the
Speaker 1: child and grandchild of people who weren't famous and then
Speaker 1: weren't famous, I know what a privilege it is and
Speaker 1: how fleeting it is. But people come over to me
Speaker 1: and say, you know, you know whatever, and then they'll say,
Speaker 1: is it going to be okay?
Speaker 2: I mean, do people ask you that?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I get that a lot. I mean I
Speaker 3: get that a lot. I get it from friends who
Speaker 3: are as much in tautics, but also strangers, you know,
Speaker 3: which is also nice. I also like here for people,
Speaker 3: it's wonderful. It's all, it's so lovely because it's usually
Speaker 3: it's not people that are yelling at me because I
Speaker 3: don't want Fox anymore. Right Like back in the old days,
Speaker 3: some people yell at me at the airport back when
Speaker 3: I go on Fox, but the Fox didn't have me anymore.
Speaker 3: So it's always people that are like, thank you, I
Speaker 3: appreciate and so I love that and I'm hopeful that
Speaker 3: I can give people some kind of comfort or you know,
Speaker 3: make them feel good to be like, oh, that's the
Speaker 3: guy that used to be a Republican that isn't insane,
Speaker 3: you know, Like I get that from people. But yeah,
Speaker 3: they asked me it's going to be okay, They like
Speaker 3: they want me to tell them it is, and I'm like, man,
Speaker 3: I'm raincloud, Like I'm not the right person to ask
Speaker 3: for this, Like I'm happy to be a hug if
Speaker 3: we're going to do deep psychological stuff on the podcast today,
Speaker 3: I have to tell you I mentally was not allowing
Speaker 3: myself to consider the possibility that Trump could win up
Speaker 3: through about a month or two ago. And I've been
Speaker 3: starting over the last month to like do the thing
Speaker 3: in my head, which is like, okay, it'll be okay.
Speaker 3: You know, I live in a blue city, like I
Speaker 3: will keep fighting. I'm not going to Portugal like these
Speaker 3: you know, like these tuck and run franchists. I'm not
Speaker 3: doing it. I'm going to fight it and we can
Speaker 3: survive it, and it's going to be bad. But anyway,
Speaker 3: but that's not a great sign that But that just
Speaker 3: shows like if I'm going through that psychological thing, obviously
Speaker 3: other folks are. But I'm not in a panic. I
Speaker 3: don't want to make it to seem to listeners like
Speaker 3: I'm in a panic. I still think that Biden probably
Speaker 3: guts this out in the electoral college, but it's just
Speaker 3: it's just way too close for comfort.
Speaker 1: Right And I think, look, it's easier to keep an
Speaker 1: incumbency than it is. Incumbency has huge advantages being the
Speaker 1: actual president and versus the guy sitting in the criminal
Speaker 1: one hundred center Street listening to an adult film star
Speaker 1: talk about their sexual encounter, which is what Trump is
Speaker 1: doing right now. But I think what's hard for me
Speaker 1: psychologically since this has turned into Molly and Tim Dooth therapy,
Speaker 1: is that I come from a world where, like yesterday
Speaker 1: RFK said he had a big dead worm in his brain.
Speaker 1: I would think that would be disqualifying to a presidential candidate.
Speaker 3: You're able to know.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying.
Speaker 1: If I had a big dead worm in my brain,
Speaker 1: I would be like, perhaps I shouldn't be president.
Speaker 3: It is like a perfect veep situation. I mean, you
Speaker 3: can just imagine the scene and beep where they like,
Speaker 3: you know, man of vice president, he's got brain worms
Speaker 3: and she's like, obviously he's got brain words, and he's like, no, literally,
Speaker 3: he has a dead worm that was eating his brain.
Speaker 3: Everything that he said that demonstrates that he has figured
Speaker 3: if brain worms is what has been disqualifying, the RFK
Speaker 3: mojo definitely seems to be slackening a little bit. I
Speaker 3: don't think it's just the brain worm that's good. I've
Speaker 3: always said that the lower you get him, the better
Speaker 3: because his core base is kind of trumpy, you know,
Speaker 3: And so what you don't want is RFK getting up
Speaker 3: into the teens or the double digits, Like that's going
Speaker 3: to be bad news for Biden. If you can keep
Speaker 3: him down at three or four, that's going to be
Speaker 3: maybe probably help Biden on that.
Speaker 1: I thought that Ari Malburn did a really good interview
Speaker 1: of RFK Junior yesterday, and like there's this big argument
Speaker 1: in the liberal space of like whether or not you
Speaker 1: should have people like that on an interview, And I
Speaker 1: actually thought it was brilliant. Because of our siloed media environment,
Speaker 1: he hasn't received a ton of like real smart pushback.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I was struck by
Speaker 1: watching Ari was that he really did. RFK Junior just
Speaker 1: fell apart. Like Ari was like, well what about this?
Speaker 1: And he could, you know, will you pardon the januaries?
Speaker 1: You know, the problem with RFK two is he knows
Speaker 1: Trumpers like him, so he doesn't want to alienate them,
Speaker 1: so that he's like, would you pardon these January sixth?
Speaker 1: I mean, these are like violent people who are in jail.
Speaker 1: This is an easy one, right. The answer is oh,
Speaker 1: And he's like and he's like.
Speaker 2: I'm a lawyer at it.
Speaker 1: You know. He just will not answer the question and
Speaker 1: then he just got furious with Ari.
Speaker 2: And I thought it was a.
Speaker 1: Really good example of how if you push these people,
Speaker 1: they kind of just fall apart.
Speaker 3: I think you have to break these bubbles somehow. And
Speaker 3: I understand the platform and complaint. I think a lot
Speaker 3: of it is based on just this total legitimate frustration
Speaker 3: with how the media treated Trump in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 3: It was just such a fuck up and such an
Speaker 3: obvious fuck up. But like, not every situation is Trump
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen, right, Like you have to be nimbleough
Speaker 3: to understand, Like, yeah, sure, there are certain people like
Speaker 3: non famous people. Also, we shouldn't platform Like that is
Speaker 3: a habit that I've switched, you know, I don't quote
Speaker 3: tweet non famous you know, people that are obviously doing
Speaker 3: rage bait, racist stuff because they're trying to go viral,
Speaker 3: and I don't you know what I mean, Like that
Speaker 3: makes sense. But people who are in presidential politics, who
Speaker 3: are in politics, who are influential, who never have to
Speaker 3: answer hard questions because they're in their little either contrarian
Speaker 3: bubble in RF case case or maga bubble in the
Speaker 3: case of some of these other folks, they do need
Speaker 3: to get pushed back on, and they struggle with these
Speaker 3: questions because they're you know a lot of them are
Speaker 3: advancing obvious lies, like whether it be about vaccines or
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty elexent or January sixth. Like, these people
Speaker 3: don't want to have to answer questions on these, So
Speaker 3: you do them a favor by not platforming them. You
Speaker 3: know they they're they're happy to just go on Fox
Speaker 3: and Sean Hannity, and so already it's great at this
Speaker 3: already did that. I had a great exchange with car
Speaker 3: Rove earlier this year too that I thought was very
Speaker 3: you know, useful to kind of poke at the soft
Speaker 3: underbelly of some of these arguments that are coming from
Speaker 3: like Trump apologists.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's really important and I think you
Speaker 1: got to do it. And it's totally different than having
Speaker 1: a town hall where Trump just runs rough shaw over you.
Speaker 3: And you have a crowd with cheering for him.
Speaker 2: That was so bad.
Speaker 1: And you know what's amazing about that town hall that's
Speaker 1: an in town hall is that the moment they did it,
Speaker 1: their numbers never came back. But it's just sort of
Speaker 1: fascinating like they did this and viewers were like, no.
Speaker 3: Sounds crazy. I've always felt the same a scene. Then,
Speaker 3: I think Scenn could do well if they just stuck
Speaker 3: in on hard news, and obviously that town hall is
Speaker 3: a big mistake. Seen then has this fundamental problem that
Speaker 3: a lot of people in media do that I see clearly.
Speaker 3: I think given my perspective at the Bulwark, which is
Speaker 3: to represent the Republican side, we're going to have on
Speaker 3: people that will defend Donald Trump but aren't really MAGA
Speaker 3: and aren't insurrectionists, and they're kind of conservative, and we're
Speaker 3: going to pander to this group, you know, in order
Speaker 3: to show some kind of faux balance, when in reality,
Speaker 3: like that group of people is like eight percent of America,
Speaker 3: so it's like they might be important eight percent actually
Speaker 3: as a swing vote and group in elections. So if
Speaker 3: you're telling me you're going to advertise targeting those groups,
Speaker 3: if your Joe Biden, I said, that's smart. But if
Speaker 3: you're CNN, it's like, why are you doing this? Like
Speaker 3: why why are you? You know, either make the decision
Speaker 3: to have mega people on and hold them accountable because
Speaker 3: they actually represent the Republican Party, or do an MSBC
Speaker 3: does and just say, hey, we're not going to we're
Speaker 3: not going to platform liars, Like either of those are
Speaker 3: defensible positions. This like, oh, we're gonna kind of whitewash
Speaker 3: the Republican Party and only put on the you know,
Speaker 3: the few, you know, blue blazered faces of it, you know,
Speaker 3: who have no actual power within the party I get
Speaker 3: to doesn't make any sense, and so I just think
Speaker 3: CNN is really stuck in kind of a sour spot
Speaker 3: on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 1: I mean, I sort of get it because it's like
Speaker 1: there's no precedent for one party pretty much giving up
Speaker 1: on democracy.
Speaker 3: Right, It's hard, These are hard choices. This is all
Speaker 3: I kind of hate, like the broad brush media criticism.
Speaker 3: I'm totally on board with case by case picking it.
Speaker 3: But like what the New York Times editored did the
Speaker 3: Ben Smith interview this week, This is just it was
Speaker 3: a horrible interview this guy gave where he's like, Oh,
Speaker 3: the people care about immigration, so we should write more
Speaker 3: about immigration. It's like that, what do you talk like?
Speaker 3: That's not you don't pull to decide what you should
Speaker 3: write about.
Speaker 1: But it's also impossible to know what I mean, the
Speaker 1: big problem that all of us are having right now
Speaker 1: is that the polls have been notoriously wrong. We really
Speaker 1: don't know what what are this huge country and we
Speaker 1: have no idea what anyone's thinking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you should just write about what's important,
Speaker 3: what the news is right, and so this is the
Speaker 3: tough part. So I'm totally on board with everybody should
Speaker 3: write more about the stakes and the Times how it's
Speaker 3: actually done a good amount of reporting on the Project
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five stuff. But on the scandal side, I
Speaker 3: totally get the Dan Pfeiffer, the Democratic complaint. That's like
Speaker 3: they've written twelve stories about Biden's age and zero stories
Speaker 3: about Trump's age, and that's unfair. It's kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's unfair. But also, what are you supposed to do
Speaker 3: if you're the New York Times when you have one
Speaker 3: candidate from one party that is just a habitual liar
Speaker 3: that has ninety some odd felony counts, you know, that
Speaker 3: is trying to end the democracy that is staffed by
Speaker 3: like white nationalist freaks. Like the fact that Donald Trump
Speaker 3: is old is like the eighty fourth most troubling thing
Speaker 3: about him. And so it's like, okay, so how where
Speaker 3: do you fit it in? And so I understand you've
Speaker 3: got to be conscious of fairness and all that, but
Speaker 3: I think that that Donald Trump has presented this just
Speaker 3: unprecedented challenge for the media in how to deal with
Speaker 3: somebody that is constantly lying, constantly advancing conspiracies, constantly criming.
Speaker 5: You know, It's like.
Speaker 1: It's also a mechanics problem, like the you know, the
Speaker 1: opinion page. I mean a lot of those pieces we're
Speaker 1: in the opinion side. I mean, you don't get to tell.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you probably do, but you know,
Speaker 1: the opinion columnists have a lot of power, and that's
Speaker 1: what they wanted to write about. I mean, that's not
Speaker 1: necessarily a larger editorial decision, and it's not necessarily organized,
Speaker 1: you know. Like that's the other thing which I think
Speaker 1: is we all have to be really careful about. I
Speaker 1: feel like we're not being as fun as usual. But
Speaker 1: like it's not a case exactly. It's okay, it's very fun.
Speaker 1: It's very fun. It's often not a conspiracy as much
Speaker 1: as it's just how things turn out, which I think
Speaker 1: is a valuable lesson after twenty sixteen.
Speaker 5: It is.
Speaker 3: And I mean, you know, look, the guy is in court,
Speaker 3: we're taking this and Stormy is getting is getting cross examined.
Speaker 3: And it's been a while we've had a situation where
Speaker 3: a presidential candidate has to sit in court and listen
Speaker 3: to somebody that he did kind of a rape adjacent,
Speaker 3: gross sexual encounter with that he then covered up. Okay,
Speaker 3: so that's one thing you got to write about. But
Speaker 3: then also he has all these scary plans for twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five, and then also got these staffers around him
Speaker 3: that are corrupt, and he's promising these part and it's
Speaker 3: just like, it's an overwhelming amount of stuff that you
Speaker 3: could that you could write about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I've written about the stormy testimony, and I
Speaker 1: am very struck by it, especially that she talks about
Speaker 1: this idea that it was like not totally consensual, right,
Speaker 1: that she wasn't raped, but she certainly did not feel
Speaker 1: like she had a ton of options.
Speaker 2: And this is a woman.
Speaker 1: She was young, she was twenty seven, but she had
Speaker 1: been in situations like this before, right. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think sleazy guys wanting to have sex with her was
Speaker 1: not something that was.
Speaker 2: New to her.
Speaker 1: It stood out to her, and I think that is
Speaker 1: meaningful that to me, speaks more to his character than
Speaker 1: many things I've heard about her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm obsessed about talking about this because I think
Speaker 3: it gets shrunk in media discourse too. Trump had sex
Speaker 3: with the porn star while his wife was, you know,
Speaker 3: still had a very very young baby, and that's matter. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, that's the kind of the one sentence thing.
Speaker 3: But it also, like to some guys like to bros
Speaker 3: like that makes it seem like badass, Like yeah, Trump
Speaker 3: was banging this porn star. But like the real story,
Speaker 3: if you just explain it with four more sentences, is
Speaker 3: much grosser and much creepier, you know. And that is
Speaker 3: that a disgusting old man went and sat on the
Speaker 3: bed in his fucking dirty underwear while Stormy was in
Speaker 3: the bathroom while they were planning to go to dinner,
Speaker 3: and she gets out of the bathroom and he pressures
Speaker 3: her to have sex by promising her some like reality
Speaker 3: TV role or some director role while he has a
Speaker 3: security guard sitting outside the door, and then he puts
Speaker 3: his gross hands on her and darts his little disgusting
Speaker 3: tongue in her face and puts his little fingers in
Speaker 3: her Like that is a disgusting rape adjacent. It's not
Speaker 3: rape good on Stormy, Like can Stormy did not make
Speaker 3: a false accusation thing. So but it's like that is
Speaker 3: a very creepy, very sad, very gross scene. That's not
Speaker 3: like badass guy screwing broads, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I think that's very different and and it's important
Speaker 3: to talk about it Avia because Stormy deserves us to
Speaker 3: talk about it as it really was. But also maybe
Speaker 3: somewhere out there there's going to be some twenty year
Speaker 3: old that like listens to it from that perspective and
Speaker 3: it's like, wait a minute, this guy sucks. Actually this
Speaker 3: isn't cool, right.
Speaker 1: And I also think when you read the Olivia Nazzi
Speaker 1: piece in your magazine, she says, I thought we were
Speaker 1: having this conversation about my future, and then I come
Speaker 1: out of the bathroom and he's in his boxer shorts.
Speaker 2: And I realized that.
Speaker 1: She actually says in the piece of everything he was
Speaker 1: promising me was bullshit, and that betrayal. Even though this
Speaker 1: is a woman who you know from Michael Abinauti, I mean,
Speaker 1: this woman has definitely had her share of betrayals, but
Speaker 1: it just struck me as such a like heartbreaking moment
Speaker 1: when she realizes, like something right out of a movie,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: She realizes that he's just been lying this whole time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's sick.
Speaker 3: I hate him so much, Mollie, you have no idea.
Speaker 1: I just would like to not spend the next.
Speaker 3: Can we re interrst the people that I hate? Now?
Speaker 3: Thank you the most, thank you, And that's your show,
Speaker 3: so we can do it everyone. We can talk about
Speaker 3: Marjorie Taylor Green, we can talk about jazz Fest. We've
Speaker 3: got whatever you.
Speaker 1: Spring us here, and I bet you are trying to
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Speaker 1: Tony Vargas is a state senator and candidate for Congress
Speaker 1: in Nebraska's second district. Welcome to Fast Politics, Tony. Tell
Speaker 1: me where you're running and what you're running for and the.
Speaker 2: Whole kaboodle, the whole.
Speaker 4: My name is Tony Vargas. I am a state senator
Speaker 4: in Nebraska, and I'm running for Congress from Nebraska's second
Speaker 4: congressional district.
Speaker 2: Amazing, And tell me what does that district look like?
Speaker 4: An incredibly unique independent district. This is where the big
Speaker 4: city of Omaha is. This is also a district that's
Speaker 4: voted for Trump in twenty sixteen, then voted for Biden
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty. It's urban, you know, sort of suburban
Speaker 4: sprawl and a little bit of rural. So it's it's
Speaker 4: just an incredibly diverse district in terms of all the
Speaker 4: geographic locations, and it's where I've served in office for
Speaker 4: eight years as a state senator.
Speaker 1: And two it's Nebraska's second district. Right, yes, correct, So,
Speaker 1: and right now you're running against the Republican who is
Speaker 1: in there?
Speaker 2: Who is Don Bacon?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you got it?
Speaker 2: Is he running for reelection?
Speaker 4: He is running for reelection. Yeah, he's in the middle
Speaker 4: of his own battle right now in a primary right
Speaker 4: and against him.
Speaker 1: Yet, Yeah, so Bacon is a he's one of these
Speaker 1: embryonic personhood people talk to us about Republicans and their
Speaker 1: obsession with banning both abortion and IBF.
Speaker 4: I mean, one, I can tell you it's at a
Speaker 4: step with this districts. We continually hear from Nebraskans and
Speaker 4: in this district that the overwhelming majority support reproductive freedom
Speaker 4: and abortion rights. And you know, sixty one percent of
Speaker 4: the district supports it. He is incredibly at a step.
Speaker 4: He didn't just co sponsor the Life of Conception Act once,
Speaker 4: he co sponts it it three times. This extreme Haga
Speaker 4: position on a banning abortion nationwide with no exceptions and
Speaker 4: no carve out for IVF is what he really wants
Speaker 4: to do. It is what he is pushing for, It's
Speaker 4: what he cares about. But I love seeing him try
Speaker 4: to pivot on this because co spots through legislation and
Speaker 4: Lutley saying he thinks he is smarter than women and
Speaker 4: physicians is making people angry at the district and is
Speaker 4: at a step up with the Bradskins in the second districts.
Speaker 1: So one of the things you are doing is talking
Speaker 1: to people who in a district they voted for Trump
Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen but voted for Biden in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: I live in the Acela Corridor, so I am subjected
Speaker 1: to vibes based punditry. And I'm curious since you are
Speaker 1: actually in a district that is in some ways about weather, right,
Speaker 1: because your people are clearly a little bit sane, right,
Speaker 1: because they voted for Trump and then voted for Biden.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious what are their concerns and what are
Speaker 1: their anxieties? And are you talking to people who are like,
Speaker 1: we can't let this guy get back in office or
Speaker 1: are they Trump curious again?
Speaker 2: Have they like?
Speaker 1: The big anxiety in the media industrial complex is that
Speaker 1: people have forgotten Trump?
Speaker 2: Do you are you seeing that? What are you seeing
Speaker 2: when you talk to voters?
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think people have forgotten Trump at all.
Speaker 4: You know, Trump isn't actually very very unpopular in the district.
Speaker 4: It is very clear where Bacon stands on this. You know,
Speaker 4: he didn't just endorse him to time. He was the
Speaker 4: first member of the federal delegation to endorse Trump the
Speaker 4: first two times and just endorsed him a third time.
Speaker 4: People were taking notice of that. They know that he's
Speaker 4: endorsed somebody that is indicted so many times that we've
Speaker 4: lost count and know that somebody that undermines democracy and
Speaker 4: that wants to, you know, continue to support, you know,
Speaker 4: people that are subverting our government system. And he's just
Speaker 4: as extreme. And you know, I think what what we've
Speaker 4: seen and heard from people on the ground is they
Speaker 4: want an everyday person in Congress. They want a working
Speaker 4: class individual that's going to fight for them. And when
Speaker 4: we talk to people, I get to share with him.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm the son of Peruving immigrants. I am
Speaker 4: a first generation college graduate. I was a public school
Speaker 4: science teacher. I've served as a school board member, and
Speaker 4: I've been a state senator, you know, and I'm a father.
Speaker 4: I have two young kids and the wonderful, amazing wife
Speaker 4: and that you know, and she's got her own career, working,
Speaker 4: you know, in the nonnprofit law sector. And we are
Speaker 4: working parents trying to fight for others. And in the legislature,
Speaker 4: that's what I've done. I prioritized fighting for the middle class.
Speaker 4: You know, this is bringing jobs to this state. You know,
Speaker 4: so like worked on the complementary legislation to help the
Speaker 4: Chips Act. You know, Bacon's voted against the Chips Act,
Speaker 4: and we're trying to make sure we are investing in
Speaker 4: the next generation of American made jobs. You know, Bacon
Speaker 4: voted against the American Rescue Plan Act, you know, to
Speaker 4: try to help us bounce back from COVID nineteen, help
Speaker 4: our businesses and individuals. And I work to leverage these
Speaker 4: funds with a few other sub senators to secure more
Speaker 4: than two hundred and fifty million dollars for the east
Speaker 4: side of the second District. And so they know that
Speaker 4: one Bacon is extreme. He is endorsing Trump a third time,
Speaker 4: and he's doing absolutely nothing to actually help middle class families.
Speaker 4: And we're not letting them forget it.
Speaker 1: When you talk to people on the ground, what do
Speaker 1: they say. Do they blame Biden for inflation? Are they
Speaker 1: mad about inflation? Are they worried about democracy? What are
Speaker 1: voters concerns that you're hearing.
Speaker 4: Well, you hit one thing on the head, which is
Speaker 4: they're frustrated. And I get why they're frustrated inflation. You know,
Speaker 4: even even when we are investing in jobs and even
Speaker 4: when we're doing more to to to give money back
Speaker 4: to people, inflation is rising. And it hurts. It hurts
Speaker 4: families that are trying to pay childcare, and it's getting
Speaker 4: expensive more expensive. It hurts when you're trying to pay
Speaker 4: rent or your mortgage. It hurts when you're trying to
Speaker 4: pay your gas bill or your grocery spill. It does.
Speaker 4: And I think it's stepping up and recognizing that, and
Speaker 4: so we hear that, and then I get to tell
Speaker 4: people that's the reason why I'm running. You know, in
Speaker 4: the legislature, I've I've given I've given money back to
Speaker 4: Nebraska and so I've voted for tax relief and in
Speaker 4: record numbers. I've also been able to balance our budget.
Speaker 4: I've been able to invest invest in jobs, and then
Speaker 4: Bacon voting against lowering prescription drug costs, and voting against
Speaker 4: lowering health insurance premips, and voting against the middle class
Speaker 4: tax cut, and you know, and talking about gutting soul
Speaker 4: security and medicare. We hear that they want somebody that
Speaker 4: it's going to actually listen to their pain and how
Speaker 4: they're feeling right now economically and is going to do
Speaker 4: something about it, rather than somebody that like Bacon, that's
Speaker 4: just talking as if he is going to do something.
Speaker 4: But look, after you know, eight years, isn't actually get
Speaker 4: anything done to lower the cost of living for every
Speaker 4: data Braskets.
Speaker 1: Do you talk to people who get twenty five dollars
Speaker 1: insulin and are they like, oh, this was Biden.
Speaker 2: Do you think they're able to thread the needle?
Speaker 4: Well, I think one thing is true. People know that
Speaker 4: this administration is responsible for lowering the cost of insulin,
Speaker 4: and that Democrats have been leading on lowering the cost
Speaker 4: of healthcare. But we also have people like Bacon that
Speaker 4: try to lie. You know, he tried to take credit
Speaker 4: for it, you know, even though he voted against the
Speaker 4: actual legislation that lowered you know, insulin costs for Nebraskas
Speaker 4: and so I think that's what this is. There's a
Speaker 4: lot of issues that we're hearing from people, but like
Speaker 4: the top three things we hear from me is cost
Speaker 4: of living hurts, Inflation hurts, and we want somebody that's
Speaker 4: going to listen and it's going to do something about it.
Speaker 4: I have a record of getting into action and being
Speaker 4: an actual problem solve on behalf of Nebraskans. People want
Speaker 4: somebody that's going to respect their privacy and their freedoms.
Speaker 4: And Bacon inserting themselves between a physician and you know,
Speaker 4: and their families and women, you know, is not only
Speaker 4: out of step, is incredibly extreme for this country and
Speaker 4: extreme for this district. And then lastly, they do want
Speaker 4: somebody that's going to stand up to democracy. You know,
Speaker 4: Bacon endorsing Trump three times despite everything tells me he
Speaker 4: cares more about power, power and politics and the party
Speaker 4: and standing by Trump and doesn't have the backbone to
Speaker 4: actually represent our country in Congress when we need it
Speaker 4: the most. We need it the most, We need somebody
Speaker 4: that's going to stand up to extreme as well.
Speaker 2: Is the mood in Nebraska sour though? Are people in
Speaker 2: a bad mood.
Speaker 4: We've been listening to Nebraskas, and we've been doing events.
Speaker 4: We've been we've been knocking on tens of thousands of doors,
Speaker 4: and my wife and my kids and I when we're
Speaker 4: listening to people, we recognize and hear the pain of
Speaker 4: people are also seeing hope. They're seeing hope. We're trying
Speaker 4: to reach out to them. Like there's differences in what
Speaker 4: we're seeing on the ground and we're also seeing it
Speaker 4: are upholling. Like right now we are up in the
Speaker 4: polls forty six to forty three, which reminds us that,
Speaker 4: like people want something different. They want to know voting
Speaker 4: against them, and I told you how extreme Bacon is
Speaker 4: and what they're voting against, but they also want to
Speaker 4: know what you stand for. And we've been able to
Speaker 4: tell them and communicate and we will over the next
Speaker 4: six months reach out to people, meet them where they're at,
Speaker 4: and also tell them what's at stake. We need somebody
Speaker 4: that's going to protect democracy. We need somebody that will
Speaker 4: always fall back and listen to people first, not parties,
Speaker 4: you know, not not super wealthy people, but then first.
Speaker 4: And I think that's why, you know, Bacon's incredibly unpopular
Speaker 4: in the district. You know, in our you know, he's
Speaker 4: he's underwater and negative eleven in terms of his unfavorability
Speaker 4: in the district. And that shows us that people are
Speaker 4: are fed up with with somebody that's just going to
Speaker 4: blindly support you know, extreme magor right, you know, wing
Speaker 4: to the party, and and they want somebody that's going
Speaker 4: to try to represent everybody. And I've done that for
Speaker 4: the last eight years, for the last eleven years, is
Speaker 4: acted official. So it matters, you know, it matters that
Speaker 4: you know, we've been listening and we've been we've been
Speaker 4: actually acting and trying to reach many people's possible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems really important and good. So I'm just
Speaker 1: curious how you sort of you run Are people able
Speaker 1: to sort of figure out that there is a connection
Speaker 1: between the dysfunction in the house and flipping the seat.
Speaker 1: And also, I think one of the big anxieties that
Speaker 1: a lot of us have is that there's a sense
Speaker 1: in which we wonder how much is getting through to
Speaker 1: people because of what's happened with the media so and
Speaker 1: the death of local news. So for example, yesterday Marjorie
Speaker 1: Taylor Green did another motion to vacate. So I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if you see voters like, are they seeing the dysfunction
Speaker 1: in the House and are they blaming people like Don
Speaker 1: Bacon for it.
Speaker 4: We are hearing from people that they're seeing that, and
Speaker 4: most I don't think it's about blaming them. It's the
Speaker 4: responsibility that they decided to take on. Don Bacon has
Speaker 4: helped enable the far right extreme in this country, like
Speaker 4: Marjorie Taylor Green to be able to have the power
Speaker 4: that they currently have by not standing up to Trump,
Speaker 4: by not standing up to the far right to be
Speaker 4: get in this position. It's their own party. You know,
Speaker 4: they wanted to govern, they wanted to be in leadership,
Speaker 4: and they have to rely on Democrats to do that.
Speaker 4: And I think the country is seeing real bipartisanship is
Speaker 4: happening when when Democrats are stepping up and doing everything
Speaker 4: they possibly can to make sure government functions. And it's
Speaker 4: you know, my time in the legislature. I've buckt my
Speaker 4: own party to make sure that we're balancing budgets to
Speaker 4: make sure that we are giving money back to taxpayers
Speaker 4: and providing billions of dollars of tax relief. And I've
Speaker 4: actually done that. And so people are seeing that while
Speaker 4: people are trying to afford groceries while they're trying to
Speaker 4: pay for gas. There's being that Bacon is part of
Speaker 4: a Congress and is leading it is out out there
Speaker 4: that is the most ineffective Congress that is more focused
Speaker 4: on mega issue.
Speaker 1: I mean, do voters say that to you when you
Speaker 1: talk to them. Do they say, like, you know, I
Speaker 1: know they have passed the least bills of any Congress
Speaker 1: ever or has that not permeated.
Speaker 4: I think one very big headline has permeated, which is
Speaker 4: they're not doing their job and they're likeed to do
Speaker 4: their job and everybody else every day work in Nebraskan's
Speaker 4: a nurse, a firefighter, you know, a tea shirt, you know,
Speaker 4: a construction worker, you know a union member. Like they
Speaker 4: are working every day and Congress isn't getting any work
Speaker 4: done on their behalf.
Speaker 2: The house flipped.
Speaker 1: Republicans buy such a small margin and they've had so
Speaker 1: much chaos, and the speakership battle has been one of
Speaker 1: the big ones.
Speaker 2: The voters that you talk to, are they aware of that?
Speaker 4: I think voters are aware of that right now. Bacon
Speaker 4: and others you know in the Republican Party. There's been
Speaker 4: more chaos that has been part of everything that they've
Speaker 4: been doing, you know, and right now we need new
Speaker 4: members of leadership. I mean in members of Congress that
Speaker 4: are focusing on the actual things that matter to Nebraska's
Speaker 4: It's why I'm running as a former public school science teacher,
Speaker 4: as somebody that is a working parent. I am still
Speaker 4: feeling and seeing what people are going through. And so
Speaker 4: when people like Bacon are focusing on trying to ban abortionationwide,
Speaker 4: and you know, are not getting anything done for working
Speaker 4: families to lower cost of living. I've been working in
Speaker 4: this last couple of years just actually on creating jobs
Speaker 4: and actually making it easier for people. And so it's resonating.
Speaker 4: It's getting back to people. This Congress is unable to
Speaker 4: get anything done. And why would we re elect, you know,
Speaker 4: a member of this party, of the majority party, when
Speaker 4: they have the ability and the power. I'm the majority.
Speaker 4: They're doing absolutely nothing for the American people.
Speaker 1: If you are elected to Congress, what will happen for
Speaker 1: people in your district?
Speaker 4: You know, my parents were both union workers. My dad
Speaker 4: was at IBW and I was in UFCW. And I
Speaker 4: want to make sure that we are we're creating jobs.
Speaker 4: This is like this is about both supporting businesses that
Speaker 4: are job creators then making sure the jobs that we
Speaker 4: we have have great wages and great benefits. Then you
Speaker 4: can do both. It's what I've done in the legislature.
Speaker 4: This is investing in you know, in the American dream
Speaker 4: is about the opportunity that exists and enabling people to
Speaker 4: have opportunities to work really hard to be able to
Speaker 4: earn things. That's what my parents had. Those opportunities are
Speaker 4: harder and harder every single year. They're harder when you
Speaker 4: have people like Baking that vote against middle class tax
Speaker 4: cuts or won't support you know, things like the Proact,
Speaker 4: when they vote against health insurance and health costs being lowered,
Speaker 4: that's not growing the middle class. I actually want to
Speaker 4: support both businesses and workers. And that's the difference maker here.
Speaker 4: That's what we're hearing, and that's what I think is
Speaker 4: at stake, and you know, so that's why I think
Speaker 4: back to my family a lot. I think back to
Speaker 4: what really matters. What will be different is and you
Speaker 4: get actually members that are from the middle class and
Speaker 4: working families in Congress that represent this country, then it's
Speaker 4: not a talking point. It's about actually getting results on
Speaker 4: behalf people, you know, and as one of the few
Speaker 4: members right now of some of the most competitive seats,
Speaker 4: it's a former union member, one of the few that
Speaker 4: has grew up in poverty, one of the few that's
Speaker 4: a first generation college graduate. I know what working families
Speaker 4: are going through, and that's why I'm going to fight
Speaker 4: for them.
Speaker 1: Senator of Augus State Senator of August soon to be congressman.
Speaker 1: So after we stopped recording, I said, you know, the
Speaker 1: mood in the Cella Corridor is very sour, and people
Speaker 1: are worried that everyone has forgotten about Trump and how
Speaker 1: unmanageable it was, and that people are mad at Biden
Speaker 1: for inflation. And you actually said no, so tell us
Speaker 1: what you are seeing.
Speaker 4: You know, what we're seeing is people are frustrated, but
Speaker 4: the frustration is coming from wanting to see something different,
Speaker 4: and we're seeing that in how people are investing in
Speaker 4: our You know, we have raised a record amount of
Speaker 4: funds and donations to our campaign. We raised more than
Speaker 4: two point five million dollars so far. This is more
Speaker 4: than any Democrat or Republican challenger has ever raised in
Speaker 4: this in this race, and it's coming from Republicans and
Speaker 4: Democrats and Independence hosting events, volunteering, donating, using their time.
Speaker 4: And it's because they're taking that anger, they're taking the frustration,
Speaker 4: and they're putting it into action, you know. So the
Speaker 4: hope is really high. I don't think it's a bad
Speaker 4: thing that people are frustrated, frustration what we're seeing on
Speaker 4: the ground in this district and leading people to say,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to stand by and let democracy be
Speaker 4: undermined by people like Bacon and let them sell it
Speaker 4: out to Trump. We're going to stand up and we're
Speaker 4: going to stand for something different, and in a place
Speaker 4: like Nebraska. It is no more brighter than a place
Speaker 4: like Nebraska. And that's that's why we're up with the pulse.
Speaker 4: That's why we're seeing the ground game, tens of thousands
Speaker 4: of doors knocked, that's why we're seeing our holes being
Speaker 4: up by three forty six to forty three. It's what
Speaker 4: we're seeing on our record fundraising. And so there's brightness
Speaker 4: every frustration, and we're taking that and we're going to
Speaker 4: win this November amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you very very much for taking the time.
Speaker 1: Frank Bruney is the author of the brune letter at
Speaker 1: The New York Times and the new book The Aide
Speaker 1: of Grievance.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics.
Speaker 5: Frank, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 2: I'm very excited to have you.
Speaker 1: You've written a ton of books, but this book, it's
Speaker 1: an interesting boocause I think of it as a spiritual
Speaker 1: experience with your health a little bit, if that's fair,
Speaker 1: with losing some of your vision, and so I feel
Speaker 1: like this book is spiritual in a similar way.
Speaker 6: It's interesting. I think it is connected to what happened
Speaker 6: to me personally in the sense that I had to
Speaker 6: learn when I had my medical episode or deal odyssey,
Speaker 6: whatever you want to call it, you know, to learn
Speaker 6: certain habits of mind in which I did not fall
Speaker 6: into the traps of self pity. And I tried to
Speaker 6: take the law view. And that's kind of what I'm
Speaker 6: asking America to do.
Speaker 4: In the book.
Speaker 6: So I think that's an accurate read. Molly, thank you anytime.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I got sober when I was nineteen,
Speaker 1: and I talk about it all the time because I
Speaker 1: want people to know that they can get sober as
Speaker 1: teenagers and stop the familial legacy of alcoholism and not
Speaker 1: that many people do. I think that if they knew
Speaker 1: that you could do it, it would help. I am
Speaker 1: a person who thinks a lot about what is self pity?
Speaker 6: Mean?
Speaker 2: What is grievance?
Speaker 3: Me?
Speaker 2: You know, these are the things I think.
Speaker 1: But as a sober person who is in alcoholics anonymous,
Speaker 1: and everyone knows this about me because I think it's
Speaker 1: more helpful for me to say it than not. And
Speaker 1: I've been sober twenty six years. I spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time thinking about self pity and grievance and all
Speaker 1: of the things that you're talking about, because that you know,
Speaker 1: in order to stay sober, I have to address these things.
Speaker 2: So this hits me right where I live.
Speaker 5: Interesting. Interesting.
Speaker 6: I'm glad to hear that. I'm also glad to hear
Speaker 6: that your journey has been what it is and that
Speaker 6: you're in such a healthy place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel like very lucky, and I
Speaker 1: think that there's some element of spirituality there for sure.
Speaker 1: So explain to us what the sort of central thesis
Speaker 1: here is.
Speaker 6: This book explores what I believe is a dysfunction in
Speaker 6: the country right now, which is that too many Americans,
Speaker 6: I would say an overwhelming majority of them they enter
Speaker 6: the political readA, they enter all political discussions from the
Speaker 6: standpoint of.
Speaker 5: How have I been wronged? Who has wronged me? How
Speaker 5: do I take revenge on the people who've wronged me?
Speaker 6: I mean, you see this in the messaging and the
Speaker 6: approaches that political candidates take. You see this in our
Speaker 6: culture war battles. Everyone is so fascinated by and mired
Speaker 6: in their estimation of how they've been wronged in American life.
Speaker 6: And while there are grave, grave wrongs in American life
Speaker 6: that we need to examine and we need to address,
Speaker 6: and we need to improve, we are doing such a
Speaker 6: scary job right now of mingling righteous causes and petty pints,
Speaker 6: of taking everything that happens to defcon one, having discussions
Speaker 6: about issues in which each side gets so quickly and
Speaker 6: spectacularly overwrought that there's absolutely no chance for common ground
Speaker 6: or for progress.
Speaker 4: That's what the book is about.
Speaker 1: Righteous causes and petty defeats us A great line. I
Speaker 1: think I got it wrong, But first I want you
Speaker 1: to talk through like I can see this on the
Speaker 1: Trump side for sure, that's easy. Where else are you
Speaker 1: seeing this? I mean, I want to be open to
Speaker 1: you know, if you're seeing this in other places.
Speaker 2: I mean, I certainly can see it.
Speaker 1: There are some lefties I can see, but it does
Speaker 1: not strike me as like.
Speaker 2: A Joe Biden problem.
Speaker 6: Particularly well, I don't think it's much of a Joe
Speaker 6: Biden problem. And I think one of the hopeful details
Speaker 6: here is that he was elected in twenty twenty, that
Speaker 6: he won the Democratic primary. And I think he won
Speaker 6: the Democratic primary in part because he is not someone
Speaker 6: who exists in the realm and with the psychology that
Speaker 6: I was just describing. This is really tough to write
Speaker 6: and talk about because I think overwrought grievance exists across
Speaker 6: the political spectrum. I think this habit of you know,
Speaker 6: let me begin the discussion with telling you how I've
Speaker 6: been wronged and what I'm ow I think. I think
Speaker 6: that is hand partisan, super partisan. I don't know that
Speaker 6: we have the right term for it. But this is
Speaker 6: difficult to talk and write about because I am not
Speaker 6: making a false equivalence. The most dangerous versions of this,
Speaker 6: the more pervasive. This exists in a much more pervasive
Speaker 6: fashion and a much more dangerous fashion on the right.
Speaker 6: It is on the far right that we have organized
Speaker 6: political violence.
Speaker 5: It is on the.
Speaker 6: Right that we have this broad election denialism. You can't
Speaker 6: have a country if you don't believe in the attack
Speaker 6: and the integrity of the systems and the institutions and
Speaker 6: the democracy.
Speaker 5: So I am not in any.
Speaker 6: Measure saying the left and the right need to look
Speaker 6: equally at this, but they both do need to look
Speaker 6: at it.
Speaker 5: And where do you see it on the left?
Speaker 6: I mean, we could pick any number of news events
Speaker 6: or moments when something happens, and if you are a
Speaker 6: social justice warrior whose cause is racism, you see white
Speaker 6: supremacy and racism and what happened, whether it's there or not.
Speaker 6: Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not.
Speaker 5: But this is your brand, this is your lens.
Speaker 6: This is what you trot out in every situation, and
Speaker 6: it is an impediment to healthy constructive conversation. I'll give you,
Speaker 6: like just a random example from what was it two
Speaker 6: years ago?
Speaker 5: Three years ago?
Speaker 6: I mean, remember when horrifyingly Britney Grider was jailed in
Speaker 6: Russia right on trunked up, ridiculous charges. You could see
Speaker 6: on Twitter and you could see written in some columns
Speaker 6: the claim that she was rotting in this jail cell
Speaker 6: and she was forgotten and nobody cared, and nobody was
Speaker 6: attending to it because she was a woman, because she
Speaker 6: was a lesbian, and because she was black. Right, Brittany
Speaker 6: Grider got more attention and from the highest levels of government,
Speaker 6: and rightly so, she got more attention than other political prisoners.
Speaker 6: Then a political prisoner, a man I forget his name
Speaker 6: right now, it's in the book, who've been falsely in
Speaker 6: prisoned for years. So that was a ridiculous, grievance driven
Speaker 6: complaint that gives people who don't care as much as
Speaker 6: they should about real examples of racism, of which there
Speaker 6: are plenty, real examples of homophobia, of which there are plenty,
Speaker 6: real examples of misogyny, of which.
Speaker 5: They are plenty.
Speaker 6: It gives them a reason to turn away and turn
Speaker 6: the whole thing off, because they can say, you're being ridiculous,
Speaker 6: that's not true. We need to check that kind of
Speaker 6: behavior because it undermines important social progress.
Speaker 1: What I hear from you is that this grievance culture
Speaker 1: undermines the sort of larger fabric of America.
Speaker 2: I think about this a lot.
Speaker 1: Because I have on my desk two things that my
Speaker 1: a sponsor told me to have because they are like
Speaker 1: my character defects because I had sort of coping mechanisms
Speaker 1: that were.
Speaker 2: Bad and so I have or just not helpful.
Speaker 1: So I have a don't be a brat explanation point,
Speaker 1: and do I think I'm too good for something? Right?
Speaker 1: And these are these general ideas of how important humility is.
Speaker 2: Right, that is the sort of solve for all of this.
Speaker 6: Right, I agree with you more In fact, as you know,
Speaker 6: the last chapter of the book is entirely about humility.
Speaker 5: Is the antidoteal grievance.
Speaker 6: And what I mean by that and what you mean
Speaker 6: by it with you just said is we're not talking
Speaker 6: about being theatrically or unduly self effacing. But it is
Speaker 6: so important if this country is to survive, if our
Speaker 6: communities are going to thrive, it is so important to
Speaker 6: see yourself as a part of a larger goal. It's
Speaker 6: so important to see you. I think you just use
Speaker 6: the word fabric, which is a terrific, terrific word. We
Speaker 6: are all threads in a tapestry, threads in a fabric,
Speaker 6: and when we get unduly obsessed with the contours, had
Speaker 6: every last detail of our own disappointment. When we demand
Speaker 6: that the world inform entirely to our liking. When we
Speaker 6: jumble heady complaints with righteous causes, we're being really unhumble
Speaker 6: and we're jeopardizing something that's going to matter more to
Speaker 6: our contentment than any momentary whim, which is the collective good.
Speaker 5: Whatever happened to the collective good? You know?
Speaker 1: Well, that is that you know, what can you do
Speaker 1: for your country? So I want to talk about my
Speaker 1: obsession now, which is the reason why I will never
Speaker 1: be elected president, among other things, and also never running.
Speaker 2: But is that I really truly believe it. And they've
Speaker 2: started this Climate Core. I'm very excited.
Speaker 1: I'm probably the only person who's excited about this, But
Speaker 1: I really want there to be a year of national
Speaker 1: service in America mandatory for everyone. And it can be
Speaker 1: anything from teach for America to cleaning up our national
Speaker 1: parks to climate stuff.
Speaker 2: I just think that it would be.
Speaker 1: The thing that would get you know, if you're rich,
Speaker 1: you're poor, you're black, you're white, you're from the South,
Speaker 1: you're from the north, you would have an experience, you
Speaker 1: could go anywhere you wanted, you would work with these other,
Speaker 1: you know, eighteen year olds. It would be a sort
Speaker 1: of mandatory year of just work, and you would be
Speaker 1: an American like all other Americans, and class and race
Speaker 1: and wealth would have nothing to do with that.
Speaker 5: I salute that idea.
Speaker 6: I'd want to push back at the mandatory part, but
Speaker 6: let's come to that in a second. But I promote
Speaker 6: the idea of national service of the book. I mention
Speaker 6: that prominent political candidates have made that a big part
Speaker 6: of their platforms. It was something Pete Footage Edge emphasized
Speaker 6: a lot in his twenty twenty campaign.
Speaker 2: It made all the Libertarians so mad.
Speaker 5: Well, it shouldn't make them mad.
Speaker 6: I mean, you described one of the reasons it's so
Speaker 6: important very well when you talked about diverse backgrounds. There
Speaker 6: are increasingly few avenues of places in American life where
Speaker 6: people of different education levels, people of different class backgrounds,
Speaker 6: people of different races, where there's real.
Speaker 5: Real diverse mangling.
Speaker 6: More and more we live on homogeneous communities, We travel
Speaker 6: online in completely tiny clicks. We need to find ways
Speaker 6: to make people who otherwise wouldn't interact interact, because the
Speaker 6: only way that you don't end up seeing your fellow
Speaker 6: Americans in caricature is if you understand them better and
Speaker 6: meet them face to face and SA time with them.
Speaker 6: I don't think we could do national service mandatory. I
Speaker 6: think the pushback would be so severe that would never happen.
Speaker 6: But I don't think we need to because I think
Speaker 6: there are ways to build in rewards and incentives that
Speaker 6: we get enough people to do it that it becomes
Speaker 6: a kind of vote, and people are almost ashamed not
Speaker 6: to do it. And I think we could turn it
Speaker 6: into something of a custom without making it mandatory.
Speaker 2: I would love that so much, because I just think
Speaker 2: that part of the problem.
Speaker 1: I mean this idea when we talk about grievance, there's
Speaker 1: a feeling that other people and you write about this
Speaker 1: so well with this stuff about Americans, and you know,
Speaker 1: they're fantasy that somehow China everybody has it better, and
Speaker 1: there's this feeling that other people have it better. We
Speaker 1: talk a lot about this idea, and again, like the
Speaker 1: Trump is that Trump sort of ran on this idea
Speaker 1: that he would give white men back what they felt
Speaker 1: had been taken from them by someone else. Now, obviously
Speaker 1: none of that was true, but people were so removed
Speaker 1: from each other they couldn't see it.
Speaker 5: That's exactly right.
Speaker 6: They don't have any sense that the people who you know.
Speaker 6: When Trump is demonizing a population, when other Republican candidates
Speaker 6: are demonizing a population, or if Democratic candidates do it
Speaker 6: with a different group, no one knows to say, wait,
Speaker 6: that doesn't ring true because I know someone like that,
Speaker 6: and that's caricature, that's silly. We can't push back at
Speaker 6: it because our lives don't bring us into contact with
Speaker 6: those people. There are too few crossed paths, and social
Speaker 6: media aggravates this so insidiously because so many people are
Speaker 6: projecting these perfect, potentic in lives on social media that
Speaker 6: make everyone else feel like, well, why is everybody else
Speaker 6: always at a wedding with a champagne flute raised to
Speaker 6: the sun's setting. Where's my champagne and my son set
Speaker 6: in my wedding? Well, you're seeing the best day of
Speaker 6: their year. You're not seeing two nights later when they're
Speaker 6: crime because they had a horrible day at work and
Speaker 6: they just had a fight with their lover and they're
Speaker 6: alone in bed. No one's putting that on Instagram. But
Speaker 6: that's life too. I mean, we need to understand that
Speaker 6: whatever frustrations and pains we're experiencing, they're probably much much
Speaker 6: more universal than exception.
Speaker 1: When it comes to social media. I have two large
Speaker 1: thoughts that I want you to sort of talk to
Speaker 1: me about. One is this idea we don't know how
Speaker 1: the algorithms work, and we don't know what algorithms are
Speaker 1: being used, so we don't know how our content is
Speaker 1: being farmed to us.
Speaker 2: Isn't that part of the problem.
Speaker 6: I think it is part of the problem, and there
Speaker 6: have been calls for transparency in that regard.
Speaker 5: There are people who listen.
Speaker 6: There's a whole lot of regulation of social media companies
Speaker 6: that hasn't happened because of the kind of odd wild
Speaker 6: West spirit in which the Internet was born. And among
Speaker 6: the calls for regulation in some quarters are calls for
Speaker 6: transparency of algorithms so that we can understand better how
Speaker 6: we're being manipulated. I think it might be enough just
Speaker 6: for us to understand that we're being manipulated to talk
Speaker 6: more about it. I believe in classrooms from a very
Speaker 6: early age, people need to be made aware of what
Speaker 6: happens to them in their online lives about how one
Speaker 6: set of decisions breeds and other set of decisions, because
Speaker 6: they don't necessarily want that to happen, and awareness is
Speaker 6: a big part of the problem. Like when I pause
Speaker 6: with students, I do this no matter the class, every semester,
Speaker 6: when I say, like, how much intention did you put
Speaker 6: into the people you follow on whatever your platforms of
Speaker 6: choice are, How much intention did you put into the
Speaker 6: things that are bookmarked? How much intention do you put
Speaker 6: into what you click on when it comes to you?
Speaker 6: And that is that the kind of information diet, is
Speaker 6: that the education, the kind of exposure that you meant
Speaker 6: to have. We could go a long way from you
Speaker 6: just get everybody to pause to think about how the
Speaker 6: algorithms have distorted what they're seeing to reconfigure their online
Speaker 6: lives to something that matches what their real goals are.
Speaker 6: That's more than a baby's step in the right direction,
Speaker 6: and that has not been taken, and that I think
Speaker 6: is in large parts the responsibility for that on educators,
Speaker 6: public servants having a discussion.
Speaker 5: That we have not been having with the people around us.
Speaker 5: With the students in particular, you teach.
Speaker 2: These amazing duke students.
Speaker 1: You're sort of in the field with these college students,
Speaker 1: So what are you seeing from them?
Speaker 2: And does it make you hopeful?
Speaker 6: It makes me more hopeful than not. I mean, I
Speaker 6: see some stuff that encourages me, I see some stuff
Speaker 6: that discourages me. I'll start with what discourages me really quickly,
Speaker 6: and then I'll go to what encourages me. What discourages
Speaker 6: me is I think, and I think this is a
Speaker 6: sane take on the world. I think they feel that
Speaker 6: they live at a time and in a country where
Speaker 6: economically speaking, the margin for error is really slim. They
Speaker 6: have not been raised and again, this is a sane
Speaker 6: This is the sane response for them to have in
Speaker 6: a sane perspective.
Speaker 5: They have not been.
Speaker 6: Raised in such a fashion where they see this country
Speaker 6: as one of guaranteed bounty and better tomorrows.
Speaker 5: You know, I will outpace my parents.
Speaker 6: I will live the American dream of continued and further
Speaker 6: assent up to social ladder. So they feel a sort
Speaker 6: of anxiety and caution about their futures that I think
Speaker 6: is discouraging to see, but is an understandable response.
Speaker 1: Don't you think that's a little bit good, like that
Speaker 1: they don't have that entitlement, because I think of that
Speaker 1: entitlement as so bad for working hard and connecting with people.
Speaker 1: And you know that I feel like that is sort
Speaker 1: of the worst way you can be. But tell me
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, or if I am wrong.
Speaker 6: You're not wrong. But I think it's a little bit
Speaker 6: more complicated than that. I think it's sad because it
Speaker 6: tramples on and diminishes the measure of optimism in their lives.
Speaker 6: I think optimism is so key to making things better,
Speaker 6: kind of reaching for unattained goals. So I think it's complicated,
Speaker 6: But I will tell you they're very earnest.
Speaker 5: Ernest isn't the right work.
Speaker 6: That sounds like a little bit of a diss that
Speaker 6: sounds Pollyanna esque, But it's good to be well. They
Speaker 6: want the world to be a better place. They're sensitive, too,
Speaker 6: sometimes over sensitive to matters of injustice. They care about
Speaker 6: those things in a very genuine way. Word inclusion or inclusiveness.
Speaker 6: It's become a kind of cant or rgo and and
Speaker 6: I think people just let it wash over them. But inclusion, inclusiveness,
Speaker 6: these are important things. And I think the students I
Speaker 6: teach their generation care more genuinely and expansively about that
Speaker 6: the previous generations did, and I think will be the
Speaker 6: beneficiarias of that.
Speaker 1: So interesting, so important. I hope you will come back.
Speaker 6: I would be delighted too, and I thank you for
Speaker 6: having me on the show.
Speaker 2: The moment, do you have a moment of fuckery?
Speaker 3: I do have a moment of fuckery. And then my
Speaker 3: moment of fuckery is all of these quasi anti Trump
Speaker 3: conservative foreign policy hawks that are very pro BB and
Speaker 3: pro Israel, but that have, to their credit, you know,
Speaker 3: criticized Trump and said they're anti Trump there at commentary magazine,
Speaker 3: National Review and at these at these types of places.
Speaker 3: So some of them are still at Fox and binding
Speaker 3: out after. Let's just be honest. Biden's been pretty damn
Speaker 3: stalwart with BB for seven months.
Speaker 2: Perhaps way too much. Yes, many people are saying.
Speaker 3: In the face of criticism from his left flank, in
Speaker 3: the face of criticism from other world leaders and other allies,
Speaker 3: and he said that Israel is our ally, they were attacked,
Speaker 3: they're holding our hostages. We need to stick with them.
Speaker 3: I get that, you know, we can quibble about the details.
Speaker 3: So then one day, finally seven months into this, when
Speaker 3: BB is planning an invasion that has no real plan
Speaker 3: for success. The plan is just basically, we're going to
Speaker 3: kill a bunch of people and like, we'll see where
Speaker 3: the chips fall, like that's basically the plan. All Biden
Speaker 3: says say is, you know, we're not going to give
Speaker 3: you these big ass bombs to kill as many people
Speaker 3: as possible. All Right, We're still gonna help you with
Speaker 3: defensive stuff. We're still helping with intelligence. It's just if
Speaker 3: you go ahead with this like this is now a
Speaker 3: step too far, which puts him again as like one
Speaker 3: of the still one of the closest allies are you
Speaker 3: compared to what the other European countries are saying about it?
Speaker 3: And now these assholes are out there. This guy Cliff Assnus,
Speaker 3: who's a big donor to was a big Nick Galy donor,
Speaker 3: is tweeting yesterday hashtag Trump twenty twenty four, Biden betrayal,
Speaker 3: Biden abandoning Israel. It's just like be a grown up,
Speaker 3: like you guys are just as bad, if not worse
Speaker 3: than the like eighteen year olds who are like I
Speaker 3: won't vote for genocide Joe, I'm going to vote for
Speaker 3: Cornell West. It's like be a grown up. Being a
Speaker 3: grown up means sometimes you don't get everything you want,
Speaker 3: and sometimes there are two choices, whether or not you
Speaker 3: don't find them both perfect. But you've got to decide
Speaker 3: which one is better and which one is more responsible.
Speaker 3: That's a grown up thing to do, and in this case,
Speaker 3: it's obviously Joe Biden that is the right choice. And
Speaker 3: these guys know it, they know the threat to Trump,
Speaker 3: but they're babies and they're not getting everything they want
Speaker 3: on their one issue of Israel, and so now they're
Speaker 3: lashing out and they're putting on the red maga hat.
Speaker 3: Fuck you, fuck you.
Speaker 2: Wow, good for you, Tim Miller.
Speaker 1: My moment of buckery is Susan necklace slut shamings Stormy Daniels.
Speaker 3: Yeah, amen to that too.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just disgusting.
Speaker 1: You know, the fact that the men on the defense
Speaker 1: have used her in this way is disgusting. The fact
Speaker 1: that she is sledshaming this woman who you know, Stormy
Speaker 1: has perhaps made some money off of this, but ultimately,
Speaker 1: I'm sure she would rather not as both of us
Speaker 1: as recipients of death threats. I'm sure she would rather
Speaker 1: just be normal. And I just feel like it's a
Speaker 1: terrible look. And every time things like this happen, as
Speaker 1: we are both parents of daughters and it's just discussing,
Speaker 1: and it gets me really upset.
Speaker 5: It's gross.
Speaker 3: Thank you. We're totally lyned on that one. Yeah, screw
Speaker 3: her too, now literally.
Speaker 2: Take you, Tip Miller.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you
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Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.