WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Necromantic Urge, Part 1 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:08.360 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:09.480 is Robert Lamb. 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.000 And I am Joe McCormick, and hey, Rob and I 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.480 are out this week for Fall Break, so we're bringing 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.239 you a few episodes from the vault. This is part 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:23.640 one of our series on necromancy, originally published September twenty eighth, 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:25.000 twenty twenty three. 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.920 All right, let's jump right in. My heart is made 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:34.159 a necromancer's glass, where homeless forms and exile phantoms team, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:38.879 Where faces of forgotten sorrows gleam and dead despairs, archaic 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:43.479 peer and pass gray longings of some weary heart that 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:48.400 was possessed me, and the multiple supreme, unwildered hope and 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:53.680 star in blazoned dream of questing armies, ancient queen and 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:59.040 lass risen vampire like from out the wormy mold, deep 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:03.240 in the magic mirror of my heart, behold their parish beauty, 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:07.240 and depart and now from black Ophelia and far and cold, 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:12.520 swimming in deathly light on charnal Sky's the enormous ghosts 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:14.480 of bygone worlds arise. 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.960 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.000 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:30.640 is Robert. 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.360 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And to continue a 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:38.280 stuff to blow your mind tradition, we are disregarding the 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.800 traditional Gregorian calendar and we have decided that October begins 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.200 in late September. It often does for us, if you 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:50.560 don't know, we do spooky content all October, and today 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.120 is the first day of that month long festival. 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.600 That's right, I mean, yeah, Halloween has already begun. There's 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.360 no doubt about it. I'm going to haunt it house 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.840 tomorrow night. So it's begun. It has begun. And so 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:06.680 we kicked off this episode. This is going to be 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.840 the first of I believe two episodes. We'll see how 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.760 it goes. Regarding necromancy, that was a reading from the 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:17.160 early twentieth century poem Necromancy by the weird fiction, horror 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.320 and fantasy rider Clark Ashton Smith. 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.960 Now, I actually suggested this topic because I became interested 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.680 in it when we were doing an episode a while back. 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.760 I think it was our series on oil and Water. 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.280 We were mainly focusing there on legends about how if 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.880 you pour oil and water it will settle the waves, 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.960 and how to some extent that is actually scientifically true. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.360 So if you haven't heard that series, go back and 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.400 listen to it. It'll be a treat. But in that 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:47.960 series I did end up going on a large digression 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.760 about necromancy in the Hebrew Bible, and it got me 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.280 thinking about the idea that necromancy. When people use that 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.359 word today, they're almost always talking about a sort of 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:04.320 Dungeon and Dragons sorcerer that raises the dead and commands 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:08.400 them as a sort of shambling thrall of some sort, 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.160 whereas in the traditional understanding, necromancy means something different, and 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.400 it's usually a reference to the practice of divination with 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.120 the help of the dead, consulting the dead for information. 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.480 And that sort of gap in meanings between the popular 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:27.320 understanding and the original understanding I thought was very interesting 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.440 and maybe worth plowing into the history a bit. Yeah. 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.120 Yeah, because if you're familiar with Dungeons and Dragons necromancers, 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.320 you know that within Dungeons and Dragons, this is a 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:41.480 magic practitioner who specializes in spells of the necromancy spell class, 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.560 So things like animate Dead, finger of Death, chill Touch, 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.360 that sort of thing. You know, lots of undead ish 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:53.480 magical spells and abilities, and the presentation of necromancers in 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.040 D and D has of course influenced tons of fantasy 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:58.520 and sci fi properties over the years. So there's this 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:03.040 strong pop culture echo of the dead raising necromancer. 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.480 Now, I think, aligning with the traditional understanding of necromancy, 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.440 you do have a spell in Dungeons and Dragons which 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.880 is speak with Dead, which is almost always used for 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:15.840 necromancy purposes. It's like, you need to get some information 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.960 out of this corpse. And despite the evil connotations of 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.520 necromancy in general, I think anybody can use this spell. 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.839 Like in Balder's Gate, I have my very lawful, good 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.279 wizard speaking with dead most of the time. 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:31.560 Yeah. I think one of the interesting things to keep 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.920 in mind about necromancy we'll probably get into this some more, 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:39.279 is that this idea of like speaking with the dead. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:45.760 You know, it's like the medieval Christian experience and prohibition 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:47.440 against this sort of thing. I kind of cast a 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.640 long shadow where you know, this idea that you shouldn't 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:52.159 attempt to speak with the dead. You don't know what 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.479 we'll speak back, because speaking with the dead is not 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:59.120 possible by the rules of laws of God, as they 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.760 understood it to be, and therefore you know, it was 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.240 just dangerous to even think about such a thing. So 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.520 that'll be worth keeping in mind here. But the Dungis 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:12.560 and Dragon's idea of the necromancer, of course, you're all 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:17.200 on various traditions as well, including the discussion of necromancers 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.839 in necromancy and pre existing fantasy and weird fiction, including 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:25.440 that of Clark Ashton Smith, whose poem started off this episode. 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:27.760 For instance, he had a story titled The Empire of 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:32.000 the Necromancers from nineteen thirty two that involved a pair 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:36.000 of kind of like rogue necromancers who get exiled from 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.880 one kingdom, and so they go into this kingdom of 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.880 this deceased kingdom of tombs and start raising up people 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.400 to serve as their servants, and of course they end 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.160 up rising against them. That sort of. 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.080 Thing is kind of a buddy comedy. 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.360 No, no, it's it's no, you're not. You don't really 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:58.080 sympathize with these necromancers. They're awful and you're rooting for 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.400 the dead to overcome them the whole time, and so 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:04.400 it's satisfying when they do. It's also worth noting that j. R. 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:10.200 Tolkens the Hobbit features whispers of the mysterious necromancer in Mirkwood. 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.480 I think little is made out of this in the text, 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:14.840 but I think we're to understand that this is an 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.279 incarnation of the dark Lord Saarn prior to his return 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.360 to Mordor, and his final incarnation is the all Seeing Eye. 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.240 As to what sort of literal necromancy he might be 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.440 up to in Mirkwood, I don't know that we have 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:29.919 a clear answer on that. 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.159 That's a good question. I don't know if Sauron would 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.320 be raising the dead to obtain information or for divinatory purposes. 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.839 I think he mainly does go more in the D 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.520 and D direction of like he raises what are they called, 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:44.640 you know, the ring rays. I guess those are those 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:48.200 are undead wraiths or revenants of some sort. They are 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.720 dead kings who are brought back to do his bidding. 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.000 Yeah. Yeah, so that's that's necromancy and the raising the 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.919 dead sense. But in terms of the speaking with the dead, 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.280 I don't know that he has much to talk about. 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.359 With him except like, yeah, do as I command, you 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:02.479 kneel before Zod. 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:07.880 Yeah, so we're going to be talking about several different 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:12.360 angles regarding necromancy here. But one article that I found 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:17.320 pretty insightful in places was this paper by the Czech 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.720 academic andre J Kapcar titled the Origins of Necromancy or 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.600 how we Learned to Speak to the Dead, and I 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.040 thought this was pretty insightful. He points out that the 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:31.560 ultimate roots of necromancy can be found in the socioeconomic 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:36.640 impact of human death on individuals and communities, especially small communities. 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.400 And this is one of those things that I think 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.400 can seem like an outrageous overstatement of the obvious at first, 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:45.800 but as social animals, a great deal depends on the 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.560 social bonds created and nurtured by individuals within a group, 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.440 and when an individual dies, it potentially throws all of 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:56.960 that into disarray unless the bonds they established in life 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.680 can be carried on after their death by one or 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.800 the other. So it becomes important to retain bonds of 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.400 some sort with one's ancestors, which is not necessarily necromancy obviously, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.960 and even you know, to seek their guidance, which is 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.200 more directly what we might think of as necromancy, but 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:19.280 again not necessarily necromancy, which is is going to be 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.320 a distinction. We'll come back to again and again. 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.440 This is interesting. It gets into something I think I'm 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:25.480 going to talk about more in Part two than in 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.720 this part, but about how some ancient descriptions of alleged 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:37.640 necromancy practices might actually be sort of external misunderstandings of 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:43.480 essentially ancestor cult practices, that what is actually sort of 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.320 the care of one's dead ancestors as a sort of 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:53.960 god of sorts is misinterpreted by people who don't practice 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.120 the same thing with regard to their own ancestors as 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.360 an attempt to get information or power from the dead. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.000 Yeah, I think there's a lot of that going on. 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.320 We'll get into some Chinese sources here in a bit, 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.760 And like, the word necromancer pops up a lot in 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:14.920 translations of Chinese sources, and sometimes, really it seems like 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.840 a lot of the time necromancer is used sort of 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:22.920 interchangeably and elegant variation for just wizard, you know, and 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:27.640 which can make searching for information a little bit tricky 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.520 at times, because you'll see the word necromancer, but they're 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:35.280 not really talking about anything regarding necromancy specifically. And yeah, 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.280 and again, to your point, you end up asking questions like, well, 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:40.520 what's the difference between a spirit medium and a necromancer. 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.880 What's the difference between veneration of ancestors and necromancy. You 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.360 could say it's just a personal branding issue, or it 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:50.040 depends on which side you're standing on. If you are 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.439 on the outside of that culture, particularly with a European 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:58.720 Western European background, again kind of descended from this culture 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:02.600 in which the idea of speaking to the dead, you know, 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.240 was evil or dark in some fashion, then it's easy 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.560 to level the word necromancer, which you know drips a 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.320 certain amount of dread. 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.240 Yeah, I think another important thing to understand is that 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.760 especially in the Christian context, but really I think any 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:21.839 religious context that enforces a kind of priesthood based orthodoxy, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.240 there is usually going to be more restrictions on individual 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.720 practice of magic, and necromancy would be one form of that. 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.520 And you know, there are other cultural contexts where it's 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:35.760 more of a kind of magical ritual free for all, 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.840 and people engage in all different kinds of practices to 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.520 gain information or blessing and it's not condemned by the 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.000 religious institutions. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.600 Right right, Well, anyway, to go back to CapCar here, 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.400 according to him in broad strokes, necromancy covers anything that 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.040 involves divination practices that involve the spirits of the dead. 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:58.839 And I should also stress that I think he's using 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:03.360 the term divination here as well as its textbook definition 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.560 doesn't necessarily mean knowledge about the future, but can also 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:09.440 refer to the access of hidden knowledge, you know, the 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.160 interpretation of omens and so forth. So anytime you're trying 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:17.280 to find something out by speaking with a spirit of 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:22.559 a dead person, then that is broadly speaking, necromancy. 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.880 Yeah, that's my understanding too, especially how it's used in 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.079 the academic literature as opposed to the popular fantasy. 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.160 Yeah. Now, of course, necromancy is just a word, and 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.400 he also breaks down the origins of the word as follows. 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.800 So it's a seventeenth century English derivation of the Italian 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.839 word necromancia, which means black magic, which comes from the 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:48.400 Latin word necro mantia, meaning the same thing. The Latin 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:53.640 here borrows from the pre classical Greek word necromantia, and 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.320 so we have necros meaning dead or corpse, and mantia 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.880 meaning divination. So we're talking about corpse divination or divination 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:02.520 of the dead. 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.720 And that's why you can see the same suffix mancy 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.360 used in other forms of divination like silinomancy, you know, 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.200 divination by looking at the moon and so forth. 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.839 Yeah, and he cites the first use of the word 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:20.840 necromancy in this context to Oregon of Alexandria from third 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.600 century CE. He is saying the following, attributing it to 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:30.480 Simon the Magus quote, by means of ineffable a duration, 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.840 I called up the soul of an immaculate boy who 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.880 had been put to a violent death, and caused it 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.920 to stand by me. And by its means, whatever I 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.600 commanded is affected, and the soul, freed from the body, 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.200 possesses the faculty of fore knowledge. Whence it is called 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:52.599 forth for necromancy. This particular quote, it's from the Recognitions 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.000 of Clement, and it looks like it's from this is 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.720 mentioned in a book that he cites from nineteen ninety 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:03.319 five by Robertson Donaldson. Okay, but I guess it's important 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.199 to drive home, like it's kind of like three different 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.959 levels of talking about necromancy. It's like earliest if you're 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:11.800 looking for like the roots of it, Like how far 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.120 back can you go and find something that is described 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.760 with the word necromancy or necromancer. How far back can 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.160 you go to something that is being described that matches 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:27.040 these prerequisites for necromancy. And then ultimately, and we'll maybe 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:30.360 get into this later, like, what are some things in 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.000 the archaeological record that you can point to and say, well, 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.079 that might be something like necromancy, that might be an 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:42.040 example of some sort of practice that involved seeking guidance 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:44.000 or wisdom from the dead. Ah. 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.760 Yes, because there are a lot of artifacts that without 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.199 literary sources to really explain what was done with them, 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.360 you can't be sure, but they're suggestive of possible practices 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:56.520 having to do with consulting the dead. 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:06.719 Yeah. 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.800 Now, in this series, we're going to talk about examples 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.880 of necromancy or alleged necromancy in different times and places 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.920 throughout history. Let's see, I had some stuff today about 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.760 necromancy and ancient Mesopotamia, and Rob, I know you had 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.120 some stuff about in China. Do you want to do 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:23.880 China first? 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.880 Sure? Yeah, I mean it is Auto Moon festival and everything, 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:32.240 So maybe we'll start with a Chinese example. So I 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.320 guess the first thing to point out is that we 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:38.200 should remind ourselves of the importance of ancestor veneration and 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.200 Chinese traditions. And this is by no means unique to 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:46.720 just Chinese traditions, but it is incredibly important, And I 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.520 suppose we should also remind ourselves that modern and ancient 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.000 people alike are capable of having multiple, even conflicting ideas 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:57.840 concerning the dead and the possibility of an afterlife. So 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.280 this may be important later on because again, in the 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.720 same way that you can have someone who doesn't logically 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.600 believe in ghest it doesn't logically believe you can contact 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.240 the spirit world, but that same individual, you know, given 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.920 certain emotional stresses, may seek out a medium and try 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.080 and find some solace there that sort of thing, Or 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.520 we can just sort of casually have multiple ideas about 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:18.280 the afterlife. 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.000 Yeah, and well, while you're emphasizing the multiple ideas that 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.400 can exist within a single person, of course, it's even 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:28.040 more true of a populace across time. Like you know, 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.200 asking like what did ancient Chinese people or what did 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.000 ancient Mesopotamian people think about what happens after death? Is 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.800 kind of like asking what do Americans think about what 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.440 happens after death? I mean, you could represent you can 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.960 explain views that are commonly found, that some views are 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.400 going to be much more frequently believed than others. But 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:50.920 there's no single answer to that. There are a range 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.400 of beliefs, and so if you talk in generalities, you 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.800 can only talk based on the sources you have, and 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:59.040 even then that's probably only going to be talking at 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:03.760 best about like majorities of people or some commonly held ideas, 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.240 not about what everyone believed all the time. 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.600 That's right. Yeah, we're dealing with a great deal of geography, culture, 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.720 and time when talking about like Chinese, even ancient Chinese 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.960 concepts regarding the dead. But I think it's safe to 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.480 say a certain amount of guidance by and communication with 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.640 is baked into the whole concept. Though the degree to 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.600 which this is this angle is emphasized is going to vary. 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.720 So veneration of ancestors does not equal necromancy. But that 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.680 doesn't mean there aren't some comparisons you could make, and 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:37.880 more to the point, it doesn't mean that there are 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:42.560 not examples of wizards in Chinese mythology and tradition who 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:47.480 are more expressly described as experts specialists with an ability 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:51.640 to communicate with or facilitate communication with the dead. And 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.360 by that you could classify them as quote unquote necromancers. 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.920 So again, that doesn't stop so many texts from described 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.200 wizards as necromancers, even though they're not necessarily doing anything 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:05.720 that is necromantic. 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:08.640 Well yeah, and to people who listen to us often, 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.119 this should be obvious. But maybe it's worth saying that 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.080 when we use the term necromancer, we are not applying 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.320 any more attaching any moral ideas to that. It just 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:20.920 means literally somebody who's getting information from the dead, not 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:23.879 that that's good or bad. Whatever older sources might be 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.240 likely to I don't know, has some kind of stink 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:26.919 on the idea. 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:31.280 Yeah, yeah, Now I want to stress that, as always, 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.560 my grasp with Mandarin is very limited and depends on 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.000 various references and tools, But it's my understanding that there 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:41.040 is no one word in Mandarin that expressly denotes necromancy 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.320 in the same way that our word necromancy does. But 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.960 in Chinese tradition, the specialist you would seek out for 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:54.160 any of your strong necromantic needs would be a fang shi, 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:58.879 which essentially translates to method master. You'll also see this 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:03.520 translated as alchemist, wizard, or basically any specialist magic user 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:08.320 terminology you can think of, including but not limited to necromancer. Again, 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.920 this is the elegant variation in play here. Though again 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:14.040 there are some cases where you have one of these 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:17.280 method masters, one of these things she who is doing 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:22.080 something that is very necromatic in nature, and so I'd 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.480 like to discuss one in particular. Okay, all right, this 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.800 is going to take us through the Han dynasty, so 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.040 second century BCE, this would have been the rule of 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:38.680 Emperor Wu of Han. More than one wizard and immortalists 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.919 served this guy. He, especially later in life, had a 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:48.360 fondness for surrounding himself with various magicians and magic users, 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:54.400 seeking things from them like immortality, and I have also 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.160 read that late in life he also became increasingly paranoid 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.800 about plots against him, and I think some of these 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.560 were inspired by dreams and so at the same time 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:09.600 that he was leaning into the talents of magicians to 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:14.159 help protect him, he also was very much supporting witchcraft 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:19.200 persecution of the day and harsh penalties against alleged magic users. 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.359 But for instance, one of the fun she's that worked 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:25.680 for him was Lee shao Yun, who claimed to be 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:29.040 a seventy year old immortal and preached immortality via diet 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.760 and commitment to the Kitchen God. Though he did die, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.520 so maybe there were some holes in the plan. But 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.359 then there was another individual, a funk she known as 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.440 Shao Wing, and this apparently can be translated as young geezer. 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.240 It basically means like young old person. 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.680 Wait, does that mean he was like an old person 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.880 who was young at heart or a young person who 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:52.520 was old at heart. 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.400 That's a good question, because the other guy, Lee shau Jun, 0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.520 like the whole thing is like he was young, but 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:01.600 he claimed to be seventy. He was like, look at me, 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:03.600 Look how young I look. This is because I have 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.359 secrets I can I can teach you. So I'm not 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:12.080 sure if young geezer here was old at heart or 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.400 old in body. Maybe he's young at heart and old 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.119 in body, you know. But where it gets interesting with 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:23.680 this particular practitioner, with Shao Wing is that there are 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:26.880 there are a lot of sources that discuss his alleged 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.280 use of some sort of necromancy and potentially shadow puppetry. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.320 Oh you mean not separately but together together. 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.000 Yes, So shadow puppetry has a very long history in 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:44.960 China and likely originated there and or in India in 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.680 the first millennium BCE. I know, there are a lot 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:51.679 of a lot of articles out there and sources about 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:53.879 like where shadow puppetry came from. And you have some 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:59.560 very rich traditions of shadow puppetry and various cultures throughout 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.160 Asia in the Middle East, so you know, no matter 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:06.920 where it began, like, it has very distinct forms all 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:13.040 over the place. But one popular but academically controversial story 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:16.520 holds that its roots are shamanistic and key to our 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:18.560 discussion here necromantic. 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.400 Okay, give me that controversial story, all right. 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:25.280 So the story here that is often ruminated on is 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:32.320 that Emperor Wu had a favorite consort or concubine by 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.800 the name of Lady Lee. She was his absolute favorite, 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:40.200 and she began to grow rather ill and eventually died. 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.120 Towards the end of her life, she began to prohibit 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.200 him from seeing her face and then ultimately from hearing 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.920 her voice, and then she dies and Shao Wing offers 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.879 the emperor a chance to speak with her again, to 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.040 be in her presence again. The story is that he 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:03.240 brings the Emperor into this kind of chamber and there's 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:07.200 this fabulous silk screen offerings or placed for the spirits. 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:12.280 There's incense burning, you know, there's a you know, manipulation 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.440 of light and shadow, and he is able to summon 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.480 her spirit on the other side of the screen, and 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:21.600 there is something shade like or shadow like in her appearance. 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:25.720 Ah, that's interesting because I wonder if that kind of 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.879 thing should meet our definition of necromancy or not. Is 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:34.439 just wanting to see and interact with someone again because 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.719 you miss them? A form of necromancy is that getting 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.280 information from them, not in the way I would normally 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:41.600 think of. 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.000 Well, in some of these tales, apparently like first of all, 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:47.680 he's completely won over by this. He's he's like, oh 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.280 my goodness, it is her, and like he's so just 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:52.679 overcome by the sensation that she is there again on 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:54.880 the other side of the screen, that he composes a poem. 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:57.760 And I believe there are other accounts that say that, 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:00.320 like he would sit there for hours talking to her, 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:03.080 that sort of thing. So in those cases, you could, 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:04.960 I guess you could make an argument, well, yeah, this 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:10.359 is the necromancer here is allowing for some sort of 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:14.120 communication with the dead. But not everybody is crazy about 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:16.080 this story. And there are a lot of different interpretations 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:19.240 and misinterpretations of this, especially apparently when you get into 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:23.080 some like Western analysis of it, where you know, things 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:26.920 get crisscrossed and translation and so forth. I was looking 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:30.240 at a book called Chinese Shadow Theater, History, Popular Religion, 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:34.359 and Women Warriors by Fan Pin Lee Chin, and the 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.560 author here points out that many critic critics find it 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:40.880 ridiculous to believe that this court magician first of all, 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:45.480 invented shadow puppetry and then used it to fool the 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:49.000 emperor into thinking that this is the ghost of his 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:53.240