1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: the Thing from iHeart Radio. On October third, two thousand three, 3 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: an audience of fifteen hundred men, women, and children were 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: settling into the theater at the Mirage Resort and Casino 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: in Las Vegas for an evening of magic, spectacle, and delight. 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: The world famous German magicians known simply as Siegfried and 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: Roy took to the stage that night for what would 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: be their five thousand, seven hundred and fiftieth show at 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: the Mirage. One of the hallmarks of the duo's act 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: was the use of exotic animals like elephants, lions, cheetahs, 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: and tigers. Siegfried and Roy had worked with exotic animals 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: on stage for forty four years in a career that 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: spanned over thirty thousand performances until that infamous evening in 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: two thousand and three. To the horror of the audience 15 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: and the crew backstage, Roy Horn was bit that night 16 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: during their act by a four hundred pound white tiger 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: named Manticorps and dragged off stage by the neck. Trainers 18 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: intervened and ultimately saved Roy's life, but the magicians suffered 19 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: a stroke, severe blood loss and paralysis. Roy Horn would 20 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: require multiple surgeries and intensive rehabilitation. My guests today. Chris 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: Jones and Michael Mooney wrote the article unearthing the backstory 22 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: and the fallout of the tragedy for The Atlantic. Jones 23 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: and Mooney are journalists that collectively have written for Rolling Stone, GQ, Esquire, 24 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: and The Wall Street Journal magazine. The two writers combined 25 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: their talents to construct the jaw dropping article entitled The 26 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: Original Tiger Kings, The Improbable Rise and Savage Fall of 27 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: Siegfried and Roy. I'm Chris Jones, I'm Michael Mooney. When 28 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: you guys worked together, had you ever worked together before? 29 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: This is for Chris. No, we were good friends. You 30 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: knew each other, Yeah, we knew each other. And I 31 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: was a big admirer of Mooney's work. In fact, I 32 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: first knew Mooney because I read two He wrote two 33 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: great stories back to back within a month, and I 34 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: emailed him and I was like, who are you? Because 35 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: these are great? Now, Michael Mooney, when these things happen, 36 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: are most of them pitches that you make? Are they 37 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: commissions where someone comes to you, an editor that you've 38 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: worked with, used this particular piece you wrote. This was 39 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: for The Atlantic. And how does this come about? Is 40 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: it a commission or you pitch? It's about fifty fifty 41 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: So this one originated with the editors of the Atlantic. 42 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: This one was one of their ideas. Especially after Tiger 43 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: King the Netflix show was so popular. This seemed like 44 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: a natural follow But honestly, it really is about half 45 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: and a half. The story I did for The Atlantic 46 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: right before this was a crime story that I pitched them. 47 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: And when you pitch, Chris, is it like sometimes you 48 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: just say a name, Sometimes you say a murderer, sometimes 49 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: you say a performer's name, and they go, I'm in. 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: How did the pitch work with an editor when you 51 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 1: were pitching? Sometimes it's a name. Sometimes literally a pitch 52 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: is one line, and sometimes it's a more elaborate thing. 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: I mean. One of the things that young journalists need 54 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: to understand about this business. You know, I was a 55 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: staff writer at Esquire for fourteen years. They were paying 56 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: me a salary and I was probably one for twenty 57 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: on my pitches, I would guess like they would reject 58 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: nineteen of my ideas and they were paying me to write, 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: and so for a freelancer. Pitching it's tough, and sometimes 60 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: you really have to convince somebody that this is a story. 61 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: But sometimes it can give me an example, what's a 62 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: story that it was an uphill battle for you? If 63 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: you can, Oh, yeah, I can tell you one right 64 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: now that I had to pitch again and again was 65 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: Roger Ebert, the film critic. You know, he had cancer 66 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: and he lost the ability to speak and eat and drink, 67 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: and he sort of re emerged as a blogger. He 68 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: had to remember he had that, like, he had this 69 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: amazing blog and he was such a beautiful writer. I 70 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: think people knew him as a TV person, but he 71 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: had he was a Pulitzurprise winning critic before that sort 72 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: of iteration of himself, and then through sort of tragedy, 73 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: personal tragedy, he became something else. It was it was 74 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: like this metamorphosis that happened, and I really wanted to 75 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: write about him. And writing about a writer is always 76 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: sort of a little tricky. It's like it's starting to 77 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: make a movie about a writer because so much, so 78 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: much of it is internal. So I had to pick Roger. 79 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: I would say I picked him four or five times. 80 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: And then the only reason Esquire assigned me that story. 81 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 1: In the end is I was I was literally supposed 82 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: to write about Taylor Swift, and she backed out, and 83 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: so there was suddenly a hole in the magazine. And 84 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: so I'll be forever grateful for Taylor Swift for backing out, 85 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: because the Roger's story was a hugely important story for 86 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: me personally and professionally. It did very well, but it 87 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: was also a hugely move gratifying now. And it's interesting 88 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: because you're in the bullpen, they're just throwing balls all 89 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: day long, waiting for them to call you in. And 90 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: when you're on it as a staff writer. Now, Michael, 91 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: when it's a commission, whether you're a staff writer or no, 92 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 1: when someone comes to you, if you're on the staff, 93 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: I guess you try to be as cooperative as you 94 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: can because you're they're paying you for that. It's your job. 95 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: But if it's a commission, is there any metric or 96 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: is there any sense? What's a fast no? Like if 97 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: someone comes to you and says we want you to 98 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: write a story about you know, the Will Smith Oscar slap, 99 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: and do you sit there and go, oh my god, 100 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: it's been covered to fucking death. You when they're coming 101 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: to you. What's the last thing you want to hear? 102 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: Something that's timely? Yeah, yeah, honestly, is a magazine story, 103 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: something that's you want to run about John Wilkes Booth's 104 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: last meal. Yeah, anything in the last decade. Yeah. I 105 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: mean there's also all sorts of bitfalls for in the 106 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: magazine world, right, I don't want to write something that 107 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: like I become the guy who does something terrible, right, Like, oh, 108 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: you want to send somebody who literally like lives in 109 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: tracks for a week, Yes, this is the guy like 110 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: Joe Stu Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in the magazine world, 111 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: if you if you write about something or a certain 112 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: way and people like that story, other editors immediately want 113 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: a version of that story. I did a couple of 114 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: right arounds where you know, if you can't interview the person, 115 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: then you have to interview one hundred and fifty people 116 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: who know that person. Sig Free and Roy didn't talk 117 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: to us for this story. But also you know, in Texas, 118 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: I was assigned a story about the Texas Rangers manager 119 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: Ron Washington when they were in the World Series a 120 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: couple of times in the offseason, and he lives in 121 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: New Orleans and really just famously does not give interviews 122 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: in New Orleans and does not share his private life 123 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: in that way. And I went to his house and 124 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: he didn't want to talk to me, So then I 125 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: had to talk to you know, I think probably twenty 126 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: five or thirty people who have worked with him and 127 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: known him through the years. But then you become a 128 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: right around person and every magazine's like, you know, who 129 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 1: won't talk to us, you want to do this story? 130 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: You know who will never ever sit down for you 131 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: and answer any question that you're curious about one you're 132 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: right about that person. They'll say that to you. Is 133 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: that to a degree your methodology, Michael, where when you 134 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: talk to people you just don't press and hope they 135 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: give it to you. Yeah, that's exactly right. You just 136 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: have a human to human conversation. And then honestly, often 137 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: the questions that you're most curious about are things that 138 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: they end up bringing up. You know, most people, if 139 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: you're sitting down for an interview, they know why they're there. 140 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: You know, they know the biggest questions in life that 141 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: you're probably gonna ask anyway, and they've probably prepared some 142 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,559 Speaker 1: sort of answer in their mind, and if you start 143 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: with that, that is going to be very off putting, 144 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: just like any conversation would if it's not recorded or 145 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: it's not for you a magazine story. One of the 146 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: most underrated skills, and I don't mean just for journalists, 147 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: for human beings, is listening. Nobody listens. And you can 148 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: get someone who's famous or someone who's not famous, who's 149 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: the subject of a story because something terrible or wonderful 150 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: happened to them. No one in their life just sit 151 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: down and listens to them. And so if you're that person, 152 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: if you can get them to sort of almost forget 153 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: that you're a journalist and that you're just there to 154 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: hear their story and then relay their story, you become 155 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: sort of a trusted advocate for them, and then it's 156 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: a different experience. It's not an interrogation, it's a conversation. 157 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: And even in your regular life, like I say this 158 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: to people all the time, if you want to become 159 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: the favorite person in your friend group, be the one 160 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: who sits there and listens, Be the one who just 161 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: lets people talk. It was interesting, actually, if Mooney and 162 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: I interviewed people together, which I've never done before, and 163 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: describe what would that was like, Chris, what was it 164 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: like for you? It worked really well, I think, and 165 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: what sort of naturally happened. I think I was the 166 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: bad cop in the interrogations and Mooney was the good 167 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: cop because I tend to laser in on a detail 168 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: and I get really sort of excited and focused. I 169 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: want this information. I need this bit of color. I 170 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: need this. I need to know what the weather was like. 171 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: I need to know what you were wearing, you know. 172 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: I need this information to paint the scene. And Mooney 173 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: was Mooney's a very genial presence, like anyway, and he's 174 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: got this smile on his face. And Mooney would just 175 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: say something like, oh that's awesome, that's amazing, And then 176 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: that encourages people to keep talking because they want to 177 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: they want to please you, right Like It's it's like 178 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: an old reporter trick is to fake write stuff in 179 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: your notebook. You're not right, you're just scribbling, but someone 180 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: sees you write something down and they go, oh, he 181 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: liked that. I want to give more of that because 182 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: it's just sort of an interesting So Mooney and I 183 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: talking to people together, I thought, Okay, how is this 184 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: going to work and it worked out great because we 185 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: have slightly different styles, but we've got all the information 186 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: we needed using them together. Yeah, similar sensibilities, like we 187 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: understand stories the same way, so we know to the 188 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: same way. But yeah, but I also just I mean, 189 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: it's hard not to just be incredibly enthralled. It's one 190 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: of the problems with the challenge of the story of 191 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: figuring out the right way to tell it, because it's 192 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: every element of it was so just enthralling. Right. Yeah, 193 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: people open little windows, and with this story, they would 194 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: open a little window and it would be a whole world. 195 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: You know. It's just like, ye oh, by the way, 196 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: lions are harder to train than tigers. Well that's a 197 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: whole thing, and you're telling me about that. So sig 198 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: Freed and Roy. For most people of a certain age, 199 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: that this was Jack Hannah meets Elton John Jack Hannah, 200 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: who was the animal guy on Johnny Carson all the time. 201 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,239 Speaker 1: Here have these two guys come, and it's like Liberaci 202 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: with a whip in one hand and a chair in 203 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: the other, you know, I mean, like, these two guys 204 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: come and you can't believe. Describe for us. We'll start 205 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: with Michael what did you think of Sigfreed and Roy 206 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: going in and what did you begin to discover about them? 207 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I was interested in a couple of different 208 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: tracks of their lives. Their relationship I thought was really interesting. 209 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: The relationship to animals was this kind of thing that 210 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: you could not exist in twenty twenty two. Why there 211 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,079 Speaker 1: have been so many sea worlds and Ringling brothers. Our 212 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: society has collectively in the last couple of years decided 213 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: that huge animals just can't be used for entertainment in 214 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: the Rings right right, Yeah, And you know, we're gonna 215 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: look back at that time where we would all get 216 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: together and go see giant animals perform tricks for us. 217 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: People are gonna look back at that, and that's gonna 218 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: seem so bizarre. What about you, Chris, It's funny. First, 219 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 1: I got to say that I'm so pissed off at 220 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: your descriptions because I wish we use them in the 221 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: story Liver Roxy with a whip in a chair. That's 222 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: good with a whip in one hand, then a chair 223 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: and the other, God damn it. And Jack Hannah, I 224 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: mean Selton, John, God damn it, YEA thought the same thing. 225 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: Sit here going shit. I'm a big magic nerd, and 226 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm a huge Vegas nerd. I love Las Vegas and 227 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: everything about it, even though I know rationally it's a 228 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: terrible place, like five million people should not be living 229 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: with slot machines in the desert. But a very good writer, 230 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: a friend of mine named Charlie Pierce, once he was 231 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: writing about a racehorse, and he said, a great horse 232 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 1: builds its own universe. And there are certain people who 233 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: create a whole new world around themselves. And it doesn't 234 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: happen very often, but you get these people who just 235 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: build not just a building or a monument, but they 236 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: build an existence that previously did not exist. And Sigfried 237 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: and Roy did that. They built themselves into a kind 238 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: of celebrity that probably won't happen again, in a place 239 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: and a time that probably won't happen again. And the 240 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: idea of exploring that little Siegfried and Roy planet for 241 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: me was all I needed. I've noticed that in the 242 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: world of show business there seems to be a magnetic 243 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: field around people who indulgence, the grandiosity, even the camp 244 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: the imperiousness, you know, over the top, outrageously kind of monarchical, 245 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: kind of performers. You know that two of them were 246 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: kind of like royalty in the world they lived in. 247 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: The more you exude that, the more you get away 248 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: with it. You act like you're the greatest goddamn thing 249 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: in the history of Las Vegas. And those people that 250 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: don't get it are idiots. And you see where it's 251 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: kind of a self fulfilling prophecy in a certain way. 252 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: Then they just become bigger. And then do you turn 253 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: around and they got two hundred and fifty people working 254 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: for them, correct, correct, Yeah, when you first went to 255 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: the facility, what is it called again in the article 256 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: the Secret Garden? Of course it is did you go 257 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: together to the Secret Garden for the first time or individually? 258 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: I went before he did, but then we went together 259 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: as well. And when you went, Michael, and describe what 260 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: it was like. It's really just cats in cages and 261 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: like you know, the regular Las Vegas faantypack crowd walking around. 262 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: They monetize it. You buy tickets twenty five dollars to 263 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: get in. And you know, if you have kids in 264 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: Las Vegas, learned that many things for kids to do, 265 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: So it's a disproportionate number of families and then at 266 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: the end of the day, right before they were moved 267 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: back to their homes behind the casino, a lion on 268 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: one side of a wall and a tiger on the 269 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: other side of the wall started roaring back and forth. 270 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm ten twenty five feet away and 271 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: you can hear the lion roaring. You could feel it 272 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: in the bones in your torso. Oh yeah, right. It 273 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: was such a primal, you know, sensation, And honestly, the 274 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: first thought that I had was like, this is really magic, right, 275 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: this is something that's happening in front of humans that 276 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: we truly do not understand. Only get here. You've got 277 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: to come here to see this. What year did you 278 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: first go, the two of you, Well, this year you 279 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: just went, yeah, yeah, we went together earlier this year. 280 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: I went last year for the first time. Oh no, 281 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: it's there now. So hard Rock has bought the mirage 282 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: and they're gonna renovate it. And the fates. There's fourteen 283 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: remaining animals of stag Freed and Roy's out of how 284 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: many fifty eight something at at the top of their menagerie. Now, 285 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: of course, one assumes that the whole thing is destined 286 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: to die out when they die, and that it can't 287 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: go on without them. But how much before the attack 288 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: on him that happened to win again? He was attacked 289 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: by the tiger. What year two thousand and three, So 290 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and three, twenty years ago, and he lived 291 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: how much longer after that? Seventeen years? He lived seven 292 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: teen years Because like many people, as a sick part 293 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: of you that's always trying to find Sigfried and White 294 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: tiger attack video, where's the video? Where's the video? To 295 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: ascertain just how significantly he was mauled. It's one of 296 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: those Mandela effects things. So many people believe that they've 297 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: seen this video that they have not seen. I never 298 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: been made public. I thought I've seen the video. We 299 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: both thought we'd seen the video. Yeah, we have not 300 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: seen the video and you haven't. No, No, there is 301 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: no video. Don't know there's video. Oh there is, but 302 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: no one knows where it is. Well, the guy who 303 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: presently owns it, Steve Win, Bobby Baldwin, right, Mike. He 304 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: was the latest that we know in the chain of custody. 305 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: Had a had a version of it? Yeah? Was he 306 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: a videographer? No, No, he owned He was the person 307 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: who wasn't put in charge of the mirage after Steve 308 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: Winn and he and also famous poker player, and you know, 309 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: so Steve Wynn had it. So Sigfried and Roy recorded 310 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: every show so they could watch it afterwards. Well, sigfreed, 311 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: so Sigfree could watch it afterwards and study the tape. 312 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: So they recorded every show just out of habit, and 313 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: Steve Wynn had a copy of the tape that passed 314 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: along to Bobby Baldwin when Win sold the casino, and 315 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: Steve Wynn thinks it was destroyed, but it's unclear, but 316 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: no one in normal civilian life has seen it. Millions 317 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: of people think they have seen it. Yeah, one USDA 318 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: agent during an investigation got a moment to watch it 319 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: one time, and it never was made public. And I 320 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: spent a long time trying to track it down and 321 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: seeing if I could potentially get hold of it. Now, 322 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: apart from the video, it's interesting. What I think is 323 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: interesting when you're talking about sigg and Roy with a 324 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: lot of people is they think the tiger killed him. Yeah, 325 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: they think Roy died in two thousand and three, and 326 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: then you tell them that he died of COVID and 327 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: they're like, what are you talking about. COVID just happened. Well, yeah, 328 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: that's when he died. Now, when when after he's attacked, 329 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: he doesn't come back to the show in any function 330 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: whatsoever after that. Correct, he never appears publicly again. Correct, 331 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: he would appear in publics in very very rare occasions. 332 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: The show was canceled immediately. He's year in the hospital. 333 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: He spent another year in some sort of halfway out 334 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: situation rehab. But the show died that day was over. Yeah, 335 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: curtain's closed. Sigfreed announce the show was over, and it 336 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 1: was over over, And Sigfried never never conceived of going 337 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: on on his own, bringing in a kind of a 338 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: second banana assistant. No way he wanted to go on. Yeah, 339 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: he knew that the animals were Roy's thing, and that 340 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: without the animals, their show was Siegfried and Roy. And 341 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: he knew, you know, and he had been confiable. He 342 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: was older, he was a couple of years older, and 343 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: he had been talking about the fact that they needed 344 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: to slow down, they needed to retire anyway, right, This 345 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: show was incredibly physically demanding, where each one of them 346 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: is running basically five miles per show because you know, 347 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: when you disappear and reappear somewhere, that's not actually disappearing 348 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: and reappearing, that's sprinting somewhere in a darkness where nobody 349 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: can see you. So in this right around approach, you 350 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: have to talk to other people to find out everything. 351 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: Because did you find any interviews with Siegfried and or 352 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: Roy where they spoke publicly that you looked? Did they 353 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: go on their record with anybody or they never talked 354 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: to anybody? Yeah, they did a couple interviews over the years. 355 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: You know, they were on a Seakfreed was on Barbara 356 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: Walters at one point. They did a lot of that 357 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And then through the years, people that 358 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: they worked for would come forward with versions of the 359 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: incident that they didn't necessarily agree with, So then they 360 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: would do some sort of public counter interview where they 361 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: said they felt very sorry for this trainer, this former 362 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: trainer of theirs that had this version that didn't match theirs, 363 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: They felt very sorry for that person's life, or something 364 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: like that. Very seag Freed and Roy way of responding 365 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: to criticism. So they were in public and they had 366 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: their shows had been recorded and made into DVDs, and 367 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: public things like that, but the public never got what 368 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: they were like in some sort of personal world, right 369 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: that was never they were so closed off from that. Yeah, 370 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: there was no transparency there. No, they're difficult subject. I mean, 371 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: you know the Secret Garden as a metaphor in a 372 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: lot of ways because half the stuff that kept secret 373 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: and the other half, I mean, there was a lot 374 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: of bullshit. And so it's their tough subjects as journalists, 375 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: especially for a place like the Atlanta, where I know 376 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: journalism sometimes takes some knocks about information and misinformation. The 377 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: Atlantic is it's exhaustingly a thorough in terms of facts, 378 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: more than the New Yorker. I would assume they're on 379 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: par I would guess they're on part here. Alex. You 380 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: won't remember this. I wrote a story about you for 381 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: The Atlantic, and I was at the we were at 382 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: the Saturday Night Live and you were doing the table 383 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: read and Lauren Michaels was eating what appeared to me 384 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: to be snow peas out of a little bowl, and 385 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: I'm like fifty feet away and I'm like, okay, So 386 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: I had this little detail in my Atlantic story about you, 387 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: that Lauren Michaels is eating snow peas. I get a 388 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: call from the fact checker who goes, that was Adamme, 389 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to change that to Adam, that's Chris. Yeah. 390 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: How could you think he was eating snow peas? But 391 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: that's the rigor of the Atlantic. And so to write 392 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: about Sigfried and Roy for the Atlantic, because so much 393 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: of it was either secret or nonsense, and decades ago 394 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: and decades ago, it's very difficult. They're hard subjects writers 395 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: Chris Jones and Michael Mooney. You can find a link 396 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: to their Atlantic article on Sigfried and Roy in the 397 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: show notes of this episode. If you enjoy conversations about 398 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: intensive journalistic investigations, check out my episode with Lawrence Wright, 399 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: author of Going Clear, Scientology and the Prison of Belief. 400 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: If you and I were sitting in a Scientology auditing 401 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: session right now, and you're my auditor, and and I'm 402 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: holding the cans which are attached to the E meter, 403 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: and you're probing, asking me very impersonal questions about my life, 404 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: things that I would not want to disclose to anyone 405 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: else except in this very confidential confessional atmospreciatingly material that 406 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: is actually secretly recorded, sometimes videoed. And then it becomes 407 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: apparent to you that if you decide to leave, the 408 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: church may use some of that against you. And I 409 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: talked to that. I talked to a guy whose assignment 410 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: was to go through all those old auditing sessions on 411 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: John Travolta and find stuff they could use against him, 412 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: because they were worried that he was going He's going 413 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: to go over the wall. Right. To hear more of 414 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: my conversation with Lawrence Wright, go to Here's the Thing 415 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: dot org. After the break, Chris Jones and Michael Mooney 416 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: share the fate of Manticor, the white tiger that nearly 417 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: took Roy Horne's life. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening 418 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing in retrospect. The spectacle of Siegfried 419 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,959 Speaker 1: and Roy's wildlife menagerie is almost too outrageous to believe, 420 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: and its fate seemingly all too inevitable. I wanted to 421 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: know if Roy Horne ever expressed any regret or responsibility 422 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: for these circumstances that led to his own mauling. Not 423 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: even close. He went the other direction at top speed. 424 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: You know. He very quickly started telling people that the 425 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: tiger had saved his life, that he was having a 426 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: stroke on the stage, the tiger noticed something was wrong 427 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: with him and lifted him up by the throat to 428 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: carry him off. And that the puncture of his ajorta 429 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: had relieved pressure in his brain and saved his life. 430 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: And in fact that this tiger, when when the tiger 431 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: was born, had been what was born not breathing or 432 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: something like that needed to be resuscitated. Yeah, And that 433 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: Roy had personally, mouth to mouth, saved this tiger as 434 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: a cub, and so the tiger was returning the favor. 435 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: So it was totally the office service animal. Yea. And 436 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: literally they said that the animal sensed in some bizarre 437 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: telepathic way that he was struggling. Siegfried didn't say that, 438 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: but Roy was. That was his and even people really 439 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 1: close to them believed that something was off with Roy 440 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: that night. You know, nobody else want as far as 441 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: to say that the tiger saved his life. But you know, 442 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: so there are some elements that are that are confirmed 443 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: and some This is kind of the nature of telling 444 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: a story about these people is it's so hard to 445 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: figure out what is completely you know, like a fabulous creation, 446 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: what is completely grounded in the truth. What years things happen. 447 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: You know, everything blends into some kind of miasma of 448 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: fantasy and fairy tale that's fantastic to delve into and 449 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: terrible to go through fact checking about. I feel like 450 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: the story about the roy story for the tiger was 451 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: very identifiable as bullshit. No tiger, yeah, and in the 452 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: history of the world has saved a human life. That's 453 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: not what tigers do. So yeah, after he was attacked, 454 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: did a horn recover all of his motor skills? Could 455 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: he talk and walk? It all? He could sort of talk. 456 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: One of his size was essanctially paralyzed, whether it was 457 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: happening before the tiger attacked him or after. He suffered 458 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: from a series of strokes and a lot of oxygen. 459 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: His brain was deprived of oxygen because his airway was 460 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: crushed the tiger got him around the throat and crushed. 461 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: Tigers have enormous what was it a thousand pounds per square, 462 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: actually have enormous bite force sure, and also surprisingly the 463 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: largest teeth, the largest canine teeth of any predator. So 464 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: the strokes caused him to have sort of permanent paralysis 465 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: on one of his sides. He could speak, but you know, 466 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: he had a thick German accent anyway, and then it 467 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: was sort of indistinct. I would describe it. What happened 468 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: to the cat? What happened to Monticour, So he was 469 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: put back on display. He just went back to his 470 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: regular cat life. They used a different names so that 471 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: people didn't identify. And then years later, when they kind 472 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: of tried to do one quick night of a reunion 473 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: type show for fundraiser, they said that that cat was 474 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: in the show again Monticour, but it wasn't, so they 475 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: put another cat in there and called it montcor exactly, Yes, 476 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: a cat who was very famously docile, right, and Montcour 477 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: never had another issue. No, many thousands of people went 478 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: to the Secret Garden and saw Montagor, thinking it was 479 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: a cat named Jaipur, but they saw montag They saw 480 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: the cat that attack Roy. Now Siegfried is left there 481 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: now and the printing press, the cash cow for the 482 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: show is over. What does he want to do? Meaning 483 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: did he want to just shut everything down and divest? 484 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: Did he want to just keep Secret Garden running as 485 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: an attraction? What did he think his career would be 486 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: for them? He was sixty four at the time. Of 487 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: the attack. I think he was thinking about winding things down, 488 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: but I don't think he had envisioned what his life 489 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: would be like after the show. And so he had 490 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: a period where he tried to live like a normal 491 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: civilian and I think in some weird ways saw the 492 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: magic of ordinary life, Like he would travel, or he 493 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: would go grocery shopping, which is not something he did. 494 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: The Atlantic couldn't verify this, and it's one of my 495 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: favorite facts. I was not in the story, but apparently 496 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: he was obsessed with like the grocery soore scanner, like barcodes, 497 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: how do they work? You know? Like it that to 498 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: him was like never mind sawing a lady in half? 499 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: How does it know how much minds are? That's crazy? 500 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: And so Sigfreed would see sort of the crazy stuff 501 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: in everyday life. And then he started going back to 502 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: the secret Guard and he would wander around until someone 503 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: recognized him. He still had this void like one of 504 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: the interesting things about Sigfreed and Roy was definitely the extrovert. Apparently, 505 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: if Roy was in a room, you knew he was 506 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: in the room. Sigfried got a lot of energy, needed 507 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: praise and needed adoration, but he didn't particularly want to 508 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: be around people. Like he would put on a mask 509 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: before Sigfried and Roy show and wander around the crowd 510 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: as a greeter, no one knowing he was sig Freed, 511 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: just so he could get the buzz. The Sigfried never 512 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: took off the mask, no one knew that was Sigfreed. 513 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: But but then and the secret Guard. My favorite part 514 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: of the whole story thing is he would go to 515 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: the secret Guard and he would wander around, someone would 516 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: recognize him. He would pretend like he never went there. 517 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you've caught me the one time I've 518 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: been here in the last twenty years. He would go 519 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: there every day. That's a very vaguas thing, by the way, 520 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: big like, oh, how lucky it is that we're all 521 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: here together. And then he would do little sleight of 522 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: hand coin magic, which is how he started. Like when 523 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: he was five. His dad was this drunk, ruined German 524 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: soldier and the first time Sigfried had said his dad 525 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: acknowledged his presence was whenever the coin disappeared. Yeah, and 526 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: so in this beautiful sort of full circle way without 527 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: the cats, well surrounded by the cats in their cages, 528 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: but without any of the sort of excess. He would 529 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: do this little sleight of hand magic for these tiny 530 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: audiences at the Secret Garden, and that would be he 531 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: would give them the coin. I think he would be like, 532 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: this is a very special coin. He had bags of 533 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: thousands of them, you know, in the back, because he 534 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: would come there every day. But it was this beautiful, 535 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: like little tiny, you know, almost like a little drip 536 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: of his former fame, the thing that won over his father, 537 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: the thing that had won over his dad. It's very 538 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: much for me, like a Flowers for Algernon kind of 539 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: story where he he's the small thing. It builds, it builds, 540 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: it builds, it builds of builds because their only answer 541 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 1: to fame was more, their only answer to like, how 542 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: do we make this more spectacular? More more cats, more fireworks, 543 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: more smoke, bigger cod pieces, you know, and then it 544 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: all falls away instantly and he finds he goes back 545 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: to what he was before, which is a sleight of 546 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: hand coin magician. I'm so admiring of the two of you, 547 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: you guys are doing, because I'm obsessed with these pieces. 548 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 1: You know, you nail it when you say this couldn't 549 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: exist today, you know, when that ended, a whole era 550 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: of that live entertainment died. I remember a writer did 551 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: this profile on Wayne Newton and they're sitting in the 552 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 1: audience with a stopwatch and Newton says, okay, get out, everybody. 553 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: Thank you. He said, no, no, no, you know some 554 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: we'll do something we never do. We're gonna do another number. 555 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 1: Come on, everybody, tie a yellow ribbon route whatever he sings. 556 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: This was even part of their show. The part of 557 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: the show that happened that the malling happened at was 558 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: called the Rapport, and it was like a quiet little 559 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: interlude in the Magic Show, and they would start it 560 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: by saying, this is the first time this tiger has 561 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: ever been on stage in front of people. Montacour had 562 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: done thousands of shows, and the night of the malling, 563 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: he was still introduced as you know, this is the 564 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: first time on stage. Would you welcome this tiger? Because 565 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: they wanted people to feel super special, like they knew 566 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: who was going to see them, and they knew that 567 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: the people who would see them multiple times would forgive 568 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: them that kind of thing. But the vast majority of 569 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: people who encountered Siegfried in the Secret Garden, he felt 570 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: like they had stepped upon one of the most special 571 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: days they possibly could have been in an animal exhibit 572 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: behind a casino in Las Vegas. I want to ask 573 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: you both one question, So Janet Malcolm, she writes the 574 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: article that becomes the book, The Journalist and the Murderer. 575 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: She's writing about the Jeffrey McDonald and Joe McGinnis case. 576 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: This is a legendary quote. Every journalist who was not 577 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: too stupid or too full of himself to notice what 578 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: is going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible. 579 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: He is a kind of confidence man, preying on people's vanity, ignorance, 580 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: or loneliness, gaining their trust and betraying them without remorse. 581 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering for you, guys. Do you think just 582 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: as Siegfried and Roy have gone their way and they don't, 583 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: then then their time has passed? Is what she's saying 584 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: true about writers like you? Has that gone past? And 585 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: you're not confidence men? Or is what she describing about 586 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: writers who do the pieces you do? Does it still apply? 587 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: I hate that fucking quote totals total fucking Hey. The 588 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: way she constructs that sentence is like, this is what 589 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: I think this is my experience, and if you disagree, 590 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: you're a moron or a liar. It's like, well, so 591 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: what option or you give me to counter your argument, 592 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: which I think is not true. There is a certain 593 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: kind of journalists, certainly who's predatory and career aspirational and 594 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: all the bad things that all the Rita Skeeters of 595 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: the world from Harry Potter like, those journalists absolutely exist. 596 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: I am not that kind of journalist. Mooney is not 597 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: that kind of journalist. We spend time with people who 598 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: deserve to have their stories told. I've always tried to 599 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: approach people kind league generously. I listen, I am careful. 600 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: I convey information in a way that is hopefully entertaining, 601 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: but it is also factually accurate. I think sometimes people 602 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: appreciate being written about When I write about them, and 603 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: when Mooney writes about them, the story becomes something they keep. 604 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: The best stories. The subject reads the story and learn 605 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: something about themselves. I wrote a story about a woman, 606 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: a genius, an astrophysicist at MIT who my eldest son, Charlie, 607 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: has autism, and I was hanging out with Sarah, doctor 608 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: Sarah Seeker her name is, and I was in my head, 609 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: I'm going, well, you're clearly autistic when you have a 610 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: when you're close to someone with autism, you can spot 611 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: someone with an autism from a thousand yards away. It's 612 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: the way they walk, the way they hold their hands, 613 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: or just tells. So in my head, I'm going, you 614 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: are clearly you clearly have autism. She had never been 615 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: diagnosed with autism. She had no idea about this essential 616 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: facet of herself, and she only learned it through the 617 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: process of spending time with me in the story. And 618 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: so for me, it's like this idea that we're all 619 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: terrible people doing terrible things. I think it's so insulting 620 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,959 Speaker 1: of a profession that, at its best is a noble 621 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: and good profession. Our job is to tell people about 622 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: themselves and to make strangers, to transport people to different worlds, 623 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: to show them behind the curtain of things they need 624 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: to know about. I think it can be a really 625 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: beautiful profession, And so the idea that we're all killers 626 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: drives me mental writers Chris Jones and Michael Mooney. If 627 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure 628 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: to follow. Here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify 629 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, 630 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: Chris Jones shares some of the unexpected gifts that can 631 00:32:52,680 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: come from writing celebrity profiles. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're 632 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. I first met Chris Jones 633 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen when he was covering me for a 634 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: profile in The Atlantic. Learning more about the many challenges 635 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: that come with the deep dive reporting that Michael Mooney 636 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: and Chris Jones are known for. I wondered what pieces 637 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: rank among the most difficult they've ever written. I mean, 638 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: this one was one of the hardest I've ever done. 639 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: Why Because it's so many different stories? Right. Their story 640 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: is a love story, It's an animal story. It's also 641 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: like the story of Las Vegas. When they got to 642 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: Las Vegas, it was Seemy Davis Junior and Frank Sinatra, 643 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: and when their show ended it was a totally different place. 644 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: You know, there were so many secrets involved. It's a 645 00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: story about grandiosity. You know, you want the text to 646 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: match the feel of the story in some sort of 647 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: way too. You know, it's such a challenge. It's also 648 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: two people's lives over six decades. There's so much information, 649 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: there's so many secrets and so many levels of reality 650 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: in a story like this where they built their own 651 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: fairytale life and figuring out what was what. You know, 652 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: there's some things that that are delightful to be. You 653 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: know that the people close to them wanted to show 654 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: me the secret door in their library that opened and 655 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: said sarmode, which was like their magic word, and you know, 656 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: the wall moves and it's a secret path to Secreed's bedroom. 657 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, why did he need a secret path to 658 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: his bedroom? I don't know that anything about the story 659 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: is his need. Yeah, exactly. I don't think there's nothing 660 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: about this that somebody needs as much as it's just 661 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: filling the emotional holes in their hearts. Would you say, sarmodi? Sarmodi? 662 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,720 Speaker 1: Siegfried Androy masters the impossible? So r M I TI 663 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: Sarmodi was their magic word, and you know the fact 664 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: that they had a magic word speaks to the fact 665 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: that this is a story of a different era, right, 666 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: And so there's some part of like it's like a 667 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: childlike mentality to think of the world this way, but 668 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: also super fascinating in a literary sense. So just figuring out, 669 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: you know, when you have all of these teams rolling around, 670 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: like what's the first sentence? How you know ultimately what 671 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: writing isn't What Janet Malcolm did not get in any 672 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: way is ultimately what it is is like we're putting 673 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: ink onto dead trees and somehow somebody is staring at 674 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: that for an extended period of time and transporting themselves 675 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: to a different part of the planet at a different time, 676 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: around people that they never otherwise would encounter at all. 677 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: And to make the technical aspects of that after learning 678 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: about this entire world, that's a real challenge. So Chris, 679 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: what's one you did that you enjoyed and you learn 680 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: a lot and it was really a pleasure for you 681 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: for the whole dive and exploration and so forth, so 682 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: many of them. I mean, that's a better your bread. 683 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: I loved our week together because I was having a 684 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: really hard time in my life. I was getting divorced, 685 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: I was reigning in New York, and I was I 686 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 1: was nervous coming to talk to you. It was my 687 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: first story for The Atlantic, and you couldn't have been kinder. 688 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: You were super generous with your time. I never would 689 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: put myself on the list of the guy you should 690 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: hang out with when you're getting divorced. I wouldn't put 691 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: myself on the list, but you were amazing about it. 692 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: You won't remember this at all. You won't remember this 693 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: moment at all. But we were done. You were about 694 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: to go do the show. I followed you for the 695 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: whole week. You're about to do the show, and then 696 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: you're going to disappear into the celebrity ether. And you 697 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 1: came up to me and you gave me a hug 698 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: and you said better days. Yeah, And I was It 699 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: was exactly what I needed. And because it was so unexpected, 700 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: because I thought you were gonna, I don't know, I 701 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: thought you might be tricky, and and it was a 702 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 1: wonderful experience. I've had so many another one in a 703 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: Vegas one I had. And this will how sort of 704 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: trite carrot Top, because you discovered what about him that 705 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: was unexpected, What it's like to live your life as 706 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: the punch line but actually be the victor. He won. 707 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: He has a sold out show at the Luxe or 708 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: every night. A woman laughed so hard when I was 709 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: a Carrot Top show that she shit her pants, like 710 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: literally shit her pants in the chair. I went to 711 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: see him six times that week. I laughed my ass 712 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: off and as carrot top, and you go, oh, he's 713 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: a prop comic, he's a whatever, he's this, he's that. 714 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: He's a lovely guy named Scott who's got a mansion 715 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: in Florida and a mansion in Las Vegas. He goes, 716 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: I met him. He's the loveliest guy. It's the loveliest guy. 717 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: We were in Caesar's Palace and he goes, Oh, my 718 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: friend Shanaia wants to see us. Do you want to 719 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: go see Shanaia? And I was like, are we talking 720 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: about Shania Twain? Like what are we talking about here? 721 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: And we spent all night in Shania Twain's villa, naked 722 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: in a hot tub with carrot top. She was not naked, 723 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: the hotsu was carrot topping me naked in the hot tub. 724 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 1: And I was like, I was like, oh, man, you're 725 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,520 Speaker 1: just a nice dude, Like you're just a good guy, 726 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: and I just enjoyed time with you. Like those For me, 727 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: those are the best stories where you're like, you're surprised 728 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: by what you find out about the person. So I 729 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: was surprised with you. I was surprised with carrot top. 730 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: Roger Ebert was a transformational experience so many times. This 731 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: job is a gift where you just get to spend 732 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: time with people who are lovely. Well, I'm glad that 733 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: whatever I said to encourage you after your divorce got 734 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: you naked in a hot tub with carrot top. I 735 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 1: mean I missed a direct line. It was that weekend, 736 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: but anyway, listen, fellas. Thank you. I'm very grateful to you. 737 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you for having miss my. 738 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: Thanks to writers Chris Jones and Michael Mooney. This episode 739 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're 740 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our 741 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingwich. 742 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you 743 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio.