1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast My Friend The 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden, 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood and it's 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood, 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Louis Scarcela 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh, 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 2: Previously on The Burden, and I was like, are you crazy? 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 3: I never made no confession, confessed with no murder. 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 4: And I'm telling him, fuck your lawyer, man, you got 18 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 4: to be the most smartest guy in that court. 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 5: When where you're going one thing, you got to remember 20 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 5: them in your whole ray. Do not postpone my truth. 21 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 6: The danger though in litigation, sometimes they break in your 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 6: favor and sometimes they break against you. 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 7: I don't trust the system. I want to tell my story. 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 7: I want my hearing. 25 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 3: Now. 26 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: After twenty seven years in prison, Shobacca Shakur is about 27 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: to have his day in court. 28 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 7: So one of the decisions, of course, was whether we 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 7: should have Lewis Carsela or the stand. 30 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: Chabacca calls his lawyer Ron Kobe from prison. 31 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 5: He will be called a testified to hear it. 32 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 6: Well, that's an interesting question. 33 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 7: My mentality was I want him to understand because I 34 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 7: had dealt with Louis Scarsella. 35 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 6: I'm surely not gonna call him because what's he gonna say. 36 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 6: He's gonna say that, yes, you confessed, Yes he was 37 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 6: being truthful. No, he never made anything up. 38 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 7: He's a person that doesn't like questions. He doesn't want 39 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 7: his integrity to be questioned. And I wanted to judge 40 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 7: to see that. 41 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: Chebacco was often on the phone with Derek Hamilton too, 42 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: his partner from the actual Innocence team. 43 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 6: Put the damn cap hormle? 44 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 5: Was it? I was that with you? What do you 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 5: want to stand? Put the damn cap homle? 46 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: But Koobie was afraid. 47 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 8: Scarcella is the most dangerous, most difficult witness that I've 48 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 8: ever cross examined in almost forty years of cross examining witnesses. 49 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,559 Speaker 9: Feel your body shaking, the switch on you. 50 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: You're gonna turn me on. 51 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 4: I'm gonna turn on you. 52 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to the burden. I'm Steve Fishman. 53 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: And I'm Dak Stevin Ross. In this episode, Shebaca's last shot. 54 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 10: We gotta attack Scarta, give me a lie detective test, 55 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 10: shoot me up with truth serum. 56 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: We gotta show that he's a corrupt cop. 57 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: He needs to be put on a stand, he needs 58 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: to be questioned. 59 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 2: Come and get me. 60 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: You gotta hold old time. 61 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 8: One of the things that became very clear after I 62 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 8: said yes to Shabaka was that this was not going 63 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 8: to be a case run by the lawyer. 64 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: And you just thought Ron Koby would be the perfect 65 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 2: guy for Shabaka's defense. I mean, Kobe had built this career, 66 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: this storied career as a champion of lost causes, and 67 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: he's represented nudis, terrorists and of course the wrongfully convicted. 68 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 2: But Shabaka, he has his own ideas. 69 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 7: I came in here telling them I don't care who 70 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 7: you are, h I know my case, and we're going 71 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 7: to do this my way. 72 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 8: He made that clear from the beginning, and he said, look, 73 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 8: I respect your skills and everything, but you're not going 74 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 8: to be making all of the decisions here. 75 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 7: And he was like, listen, I know how you feel. 76 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 7: I said, no, no, you don't know how I feel. 77 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 7: All right, I want to. 78 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 3: Get out of jail. 79 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 7: Last time I trusted a lawyer without saying nothing, I 80 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 7: ended up with forty years. 81 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: So Shebacca questions every Koobe angle, every decision. 82 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 6: Tobacco. Yeah, hey, Truby, how did you get my letter? 83 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 6: I haven't had a chance to read it yet. 84 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 5: This is the way I look at it from my 85 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 5: point of view. You know what I'm saying. I need 86 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 5: you to look, you know, really good through my eyes 87 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 5: for a second. It took me twenty six years to 88 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 5: get this kill. 89 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 2: Shebacca evinced its frustrations to Derek. 90 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 5: I'm a lot. It's so man. His way of thinking 91 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 5: to me is like, so, homie, you don't see what's 92 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 5: going on. Is like he's trying, you know, like this 93 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 5: is going in You're pushing it in another direction. I 94 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 5: lismit to what I'm telling you what. Every time I'm 95 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 5: telling you something is correct, we'll tell you. So I'll 96 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 5: tell you, We'll see I told you is that I 97 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 5: will peat to you. 98 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 6: I don't like the guy, but you got to take 99 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 6: advantage of what you've got. 100 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 5: I gotta have a serious discussion whatever, because I was 101 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 5: thinking of other day. But it just throw him off 102 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 5: the case. 103 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 8: It all gets very annoying later and very very very 104 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 8: very annoying and difficult and a slog and it's debate. 105 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 8: He was clearly a very smart guy. Is a very 106 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 8: smart guy. I had no idea just how smart he 107 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 8: was till I got to know him better. 108 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 7: There is nothing about this case that I haven't researched 109 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 7: and know the answer to. I have went over every document, 110 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 7: every minute, every transcript, every police report. 111 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: To win his case, Shabacca has to discredit Scarcella. Remember, 112 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: Scarcella is the guy who said Shabacca incriminated himself. 113 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 8: The most damning piece of evidence against Shabaka was his 114 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 8: so called confession. 115 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: Getting confessions when no one else could. That was Scarcella's superpower. 116 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: It's what made him so successful as a detective. It's 117 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: what got him on the Doctor Phil Show. 118 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 10: It's having the ability to get insight to that person, 119 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 10: sould whatever way you can and get the person to 120 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 10: say what you need to hear. I believe everybody wants 121 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 10: to infests and it's up to the detector to get 122 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 10: it out of them. 123 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: Scarcella took hundreds of statements and confessions, and a lot 124 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: of them helped close cases. But about a year before 125 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: shebaka is Big Hearing, New York Times reporter Frenchie Robliss 126 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: said she noticed something peculiar about a few of those confessions. 127 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: It was very late. 128 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 9: It was like eleven o'clock. I'm in the office at 129 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 9: the New York Times and I'm typing. I don't have 130 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 9: the most sophisticated filing system, Like I write notes by 131 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 9: hand and then I type them up, and then my 132 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 9: computer crashes and I lose everything, and you know, I'm 133 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 9: a little bit of a disaster sometimes, and so I'm 134 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 9: transcribing my handwritten notes into the computer. And that's when 135 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 9: I come across the phrase you got it write I 136 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 9: was there, And I'm like, oh, well, I did this 137 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 9: already because I remember that. I remember that sentence. So 138 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 9: I searched on the document, the word document. You got 139 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 9: to write I was there, it was, there's, there's, there's, 140 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 9: there's there, and I find it, but it's not from 141 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 9: the case that I have in my hand. 142 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, what is that? 143 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 9: Going to listen to different cas so, And that's when 144 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 9: I realized the thing with the confessions. I realized that 145 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 9: he's using the same two sentences in confessions, and as 146 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 9: the first two sentences of a confession would be you 147 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 9: got it right, I was there. 148 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 2: And then she heard him use the phrases on doctor 149 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: phil I. 150 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 10: Take him into the bath room and he says to me, Louis, 151 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 10: you were right. 152 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 5: I was there. 153 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 9: So what's important about that. The thing that people forget 154 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 9: is a lot of people say, oh, Scotolo was accused 155 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:35,359 Speaker 9: of coercing confessions. 156 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: No he wasn't. 157 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 9: He was not God accused of coercing confessions. He was 158 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 9: accused of making them up at a whole cloth. 159 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: Actually he was accused of coercing confessions. But Frenchie's article 160 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: made a splash. She offered three examples. One confession used 161 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: the phrase you got it right, one used the phrase 162 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: I was there, and the third used both you got 163 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: it I was there. To small sample size, which is 164 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: Scarcella's defense. So the other thing they talk about is 165 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: similarities and confessions. 166 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 10: Well, can I tell you something that's a very good point. 167 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: There were three I took. 168 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 10: Do you know how many confessions I took? 169 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: Oh god, I took a lot. 170 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 10: You got to see similarities. Yes, some of them started 171 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 10: off the same way. You're right, you got it. 172 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 3: I was there. 173 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 10: I never never influenced a confession. I never put words 174 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 10: in people's mouth. 175 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: As Kooby prepared for Shabaka's hearing, that report by Frenchy 176 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: in The Times caught Kuby's attention. It made him think 177 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: about Shabacca's alleged confession. 178 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 8: Like so many Scarcella confessions, it wasn't a full confession. 179 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 8: It wasn't you know I did it? Yes, I killed them. 180 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 8: It began with a variation of the you got it right. 181 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 2: I was there, And there's this key moment in what 182 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 2: Scarcella claimed Shabaka said, and it provides motive. And here 183 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 2: it is, you know what happened, You have it all. 184 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 2: They were gonna kill me. They deserve to die. 185 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 10: You have it all. 186 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: It is really kind of similar to you got it right, 187 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 1: and it's kind of crazy. It's as if what that 188 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: the suspects are congratulating Louis on his police work. 189 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 8: They have to give a shout out to the intelligence 190 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 8: and cleverness of the detective. 191 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 5: I just don't think about what they're gonna say. 192 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: That's Leah Busby on the phone. She's Koopy's associate, and 193 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: as Shabaka told Derek, she's poured her heart into this case. 194 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 5: Lon, don't be doing shit. 195 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 10: Really, you know what I'm saying? 196 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 8: What the little chicken I. 197 00:11:55,120 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 5: Got meal Oi? She is a little dynamo man be 198 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 5: runing away to kill everything. So I give a something. 199 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 2: She goes on to Tawn, but frankly she's nervous. 200 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 5: We'll see. 201 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 10: I don't know. 202 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 6: I don't have a great feeling about what they're gonna 203 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 6: say about your case, because the prosecutors are saying they 204 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 6: don't believe their witnesses. 205 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 7: She was worried about the hearing, whether we have enough 206 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 7: evidence to win the hearing. And I used to always 207 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 7: telling Leah, you got the best evidence in the world. 208 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 3: You got me. I'm going to get on the stand 209 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: and tell my story. 210 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: But Schabacca still wants someone else to take the witness stand. 211 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: He wants Garcella telling his story. 212 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: That's in a moment well Schobacca was arguing with his attorney. 213 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 2: Derek was right laying support on the outside. 214 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 7: We would get our family members to hold rallies in 215 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 7: front of city Hall. 216 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: We orchestrated it off from jail. I want to thank 217 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: everybody that came out today. We would have shirts made 218 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 3: that say free Shabacca chakor this issue. 219 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 7: Is a very serious issue to me as a very 220 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 7: serious issue is Shabacca chicaor we would have signs put 221 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 7: together and all the news reporters, like the TV news 222 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 7: like they was really showing up. 223 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: Then the day finally. 224 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: Comes and dying number four three nine. 225 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: It's July first, twenty fourteen. 226 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 7: People that say New York as Lewis Holmes and Aka 227 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 7: and Shabaka Shakur councils make your parentss PA. 228 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: Shabaka's birth name is Lewis Holmes. In prison, he converted 229 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: to Islam and adopted a Muslim name. 230 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: In the courtroom, Derek Hamilton sits in the back with 231 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: a few of those support orders from the rally. They 232 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: wear black baseball caps. Stitched in white are the words 233 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: victim of Detective Scarsella. 234 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: And presiding over the courtroom is Judge Desmond Green, middle 235 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: aged black man and former prosecutor. He has a dark 236 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: mustache and gray white hair. He's all business. 237 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: Judge Green surveys the courtroom from behind that high perch 238 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: his bench. On the defense side sits Ron Koby. Ron's 239 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: got the gray white ponytail halfway down his back. Next 240 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: to him is associate Leah Busby, and next to her Shabaka. 241 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 8: He's an incredibly impressive person physically. He's big, he's strong, 242 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 8: he's handsome, he's got beautiful eyes. He speaks with tremendous authority. 243 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 8: This is a guy that you would going to battle with. 244 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: Sabaka is ready to tell his story. He's been ready 245 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: for twenty seven years. 246 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 3: The questioned me for two almost two days. 247 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: Leah Busby leads Shabaka through his story. Sabacca describes the 248 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: environment growing up in Brooklyn in the eighties. Here's Sabaca 249 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: reading from the court transcript. 250 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 7: There was a chop shop on the corner where they 251 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 7: sold stolen cars. It was a dope house on the 252 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 7: other end of the block. There was a gambling house 253 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 7: across the street. 254 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: The defense strategy is to admit that Schabacca had not 255 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: been a model citizen thirty years earlier. When he was 256 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: first convicted Get It Out in the Open in nineteen 257 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: eighty eight. 258 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 7: Gates Avenue between Irving and Nickobaca was I guess what 259 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 7: you would call a high crime area. 260 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: He talks about how he'd always carry a gun and 261 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: the time he went to jail for attempted arm robbery 262 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: to get. 263 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 3: Caught up, I was trying to make some money. What 264 00:15:58,200 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: I wasn't trying to go back. 265 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: To jail, Schabacca says he was trying to get out 266 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: of the drug business. He said he landed a legit job. 267 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 7: His first I was working at the Queen's County Register's department. 268 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: Schabacca then recounts his conversation with Detective Scarcella, the one 269 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: he had in the precinct the day after the double murders. 270 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: Shabaka is being questioned as a suspect, so. 271 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 7: As soon as he walks in the room, he started 272 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 7: making accusations, banging on the table and telling me I'm 273 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 7: trying to help you here. Nobody cares about them. They're 274 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 7: drug dealers, you know, they are the ones who deserve 275 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 7: to die. 276 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: And then a dramatic moment so Leah Busby has a 277 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: screen up. The lights in the courtroom are dimmed and 278 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: she projects and exhibit. It's the confession Scarcella says he 279 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: took from Shabacca, and she reads it aloud. After each line, 280 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: she pauses and asks Shabaka, did you say this? 281 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: And each time he answers no. Then it's the prosecutor's turn. 282 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 7: So as they were trying to depict me as a liar, 283 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 7: I'm showing them that I've been consistent from the very beginning. 284 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: At the precinct, a detective, not Scarsella, had asked Shabaka, 285 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: where were you the night of the murder in Queens. 286 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: He responded. The detective then said, we talked to people 287 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: who said you were in Brooklyn where the murder occurred. 288 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: On the stand, Shabaka explained he was in both places. 289 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: He traveled from one to the other, but he was 290 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: not at the site of the crime when the murders occurred. 291 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 7: I said, I did go to Gays Avenue last night, 292 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 7: and I said I took the train to go to Queens. 293 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 8: Shots on the witness stand and he's being cross examined 294 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 8: by the DA's office, and they're serious about trying to 295 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 8: keep him in prison. 296 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: The people, that is, the prosecution, decide to spotlight what 297 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: they claim are suspicious calls Shabaka made from prison. 298 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 6: Of hey, now, what's going on with truth? 299 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: In the courtroom, they play excerpts from calls he made 300 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 2: to Derek. 301 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 8: They had some conversation about the amount of money the 302 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 8: city's going to have to pay them after they get exonerated. 303 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 7: Anybody in they right mind would be thinking, I'm going 304 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 7: to sool the hell. 305 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 3: Out of these people when I get out of jail. 306 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 8: One of the ada's looks at Shabaka and says, who 307 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 8: is Derek Hamilton? And at the back of the courtroom, 308 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 8: Derek jumps up and says, right. 309 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 4: Here, I'm Derek, and I said I'm right here, I'm 310 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 4: right here. 311 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 8: The ADA as Shabaka, you're gonna make yourself a millionaire 312 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 8: after this, Sean said, no, no, you're gonna make me 313 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 8: a millionaire for what you did to me. 314 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: At one point, Kooby is listening to the prosecution summarize 315 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: its case against Shabaka and he notices something odd. 316 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: So Kuby stands up and asks the judge for a clarification. 317 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: He wants to know why the prosecution isn't mentioning Detective 318 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: scar Seller, even though Scarcella was a crucial witness in 319 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: Schebacca's original trial. The judge throws it back at Kouby, 320 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: why don't you give me a subpoena for Detective scar Seller? 321 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: He will have to show up, He's like any of 322 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: the rest of us. 323 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: At which point Koby responds, well, I tell you a 324 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: judge in all fairness and in all honesty, when I 325 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 2: can possibly avoid it, which has been most of my 326 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: legal career, I try not to put liars on the 327 00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 2: stand when I know they're going to lie. 328 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 1: Schabacca has been insistent he wants Scarcella on the stand, 329 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: but for the moment he defers to his attorney. 330 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 8: Judge Green had some place that he wanted to go, 331 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 8: and none of us, including Scarcella's lawyers, really knew where 332 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 8: that place was. Turned to Shabacca and I said, have 333 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 8: you ever gone to us like a party where everybody 334 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 8: knows what's going on with this party except you? He 335 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 8: said yeah. I said, it's kind of what I feel like. 336 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 8: I didn't want to call Scarcella, and we went through 337 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 8: the whole hearing without calling Scarcella, and we rested without 338 00:20:53,320 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 8: calling Scarcella, which Sabacca was against, but he trusted me. 339 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: The hearing ended. About a month went by, and then 340 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: something strange happened, something that really doesn't happen in court. 341 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: Judge Green summoned the defense and prosecution to a conference 342 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: and he let them know he had bad news for Shabaka. 343 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 8: Judge Green says that I've come to a determination based 344 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 8: upon your failure to call Detective Scarcelling, and my determination 345 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 8: is to deny your four forty motion. 346 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: His four forty his appeal. In other words, the judge 347 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: is prepared to send Shabaka back to jail. 348 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 8: On the other hand, I am willing to reopen to 349 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 8: hearing for the purpose of you call it Detective Scarcelling. 350 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 8: Judge Green wanted Scarcella on the witness stand in his courtroom, 351 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 8: being examined and cross examined. 352 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 2: That's after the break. 353 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 3: So the judge said it right there court. He said, 354 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 3: I hope somebody's planning on colling Scarsella. 355 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 8: Mister Koby, if you don't call Scarcella, you will lose 356 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 8: this case. But I will reopen the hearing to allow 357 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 8: you to call him. I mean, usually judges are not 358 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 8: in the business of suggesting emphatically the need to call 359 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 8: a witness. 360 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: Shabacca turns and looks at Kuby. 361 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 3: I didn't say anything. 362 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 7: I just looked at him because he understood, like, obviously 363 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 7: the judge agrees with me. 364 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 8: Yeah, Sbacca, you got that one right, boys, that's you. 365 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 8: Sure did nail that. 366 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: On December fourth, twenty fourteen, six months after Shabaka testified, 367 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: Scarcella walks to the witness stand. He's sixty three, debonair 368 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: in a suit and tie, confident. 369 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 7: He still had that image that he was a top cop. 370 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 7: He looked the same, a little older, looked good. He 371 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 7: came in there, he had a lot of officers there 372 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 7: supporting them. 373 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 3: And he had two lawyers. 374 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: All the bed press out there, and there's tons of it. 375 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: He's usually referred to as disgraced detective. None of it 376 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: appears to have gotten to him, except for one thing. 377 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: The media likes to say. Scarcella wore thousand dollars suits. 378 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: This one annoys him. 379 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 10: I want to go on record. I want long Gooby 380 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 10: to notice, as I sit here before you today under oath, 381 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 10: I swear I never paid more than one hundred and 382 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 10: twenty ninety dollars. 383 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 3: For a suit. 384 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 2: As Scarcela takes the oath, Koby feels anxious. 385 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 8: My relationship to Scarcella was he beat me in one 386 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 8: set of hearings in the nineties. He destroyed me a trial. 387 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 8: Scarcella is the most dangerous, most difficult witness that I've 388 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 8: ever cross examined in almost forty years of cross examining witnesses. 389 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: Plus, Kuby has no idea what Judge Green wants to 390 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: hear from Scarcella. 391 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 8: He basically said, you're gonna lose unless you call Scarcella. 392 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 8: I had no idea why. 393 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: Scarcella settles in. Kuby tries to bring up his alleged 394 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: past misdeeds per Schabaka's request to bring up Derek's case, 395 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: but Judge Green shuts him down. Not interested, the judge says, 396 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: mister Kooby, you're running out of time. Mister Kooby didn't 397 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: know there was a time limit. But now he gets 398 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: to the heart of the matter, Schabacca's so called confession. 399 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 2: Remember it was just Scarcella and Shabaka alone in the 400 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 2: room in the eighty third precinct. Shebacca had already been 401 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 2: interviewed by another detective, and he didn't confess to that one. 402 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 2: Kooby asked Louis how long he talked to Shabaka. 403 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: Scarcella doesn't remember much. The case was almost thirty years ago. 404 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: He looks at his reports to refresh his memory. This 405 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: is Scarcella recalling to us what he said. 406 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 10: I was asked to go talk to him, and it 407 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 10: didn't take very long. I don't know if it was 408 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 10: an hour. It was in the eighth three precinct. I 409 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 10: don't know if we connected. I don't know how we connected. 410 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 10: I told him where I was and I said, you know. 411 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 3: I don't know what. 412 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 10: I don't remember what I said to him, but I 413 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 10: remember him saying, this is bigger than you and me. 414 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 10: They deserve to die. They were no good. I wrote 415 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 10: it on a legal pad because it wasn't my case. 416 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 10: I didn't have a Stenel pad. Did the DD five 417 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 10: which exists today, and put the legal sheet on the report. 418 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: A DD five is a detective's report. This is where 419 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: Kooby digs in. Where are those notes he wrote on 420 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: the legal pad which were the basis of the d 421 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: D five. 422 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 2: From the transcript? Kooby, what became of those notes? Scarcella response, 423 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. Koby asks again, well, did you subsequently 424 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 2: indicate that they were either lost or destroyed? Scarcella responds yes, 425 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 2: and were you aware at the time that you were 426 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 2: under an obligation to keep those notes? 427 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 10: Somebody lost my handwritten statement, ron Koby said, I didn't 428 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 10: record it, the DA didn't record it, and I lost 429 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 10: and I destroyed the written. But why did I destroy 430 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 10: the written If I have the DD the copied of 431 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 10: the DD. 432 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: Five, Scarcella says he wrote the d D five maybe 433 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: ninety seconds after leaving Shabaka, So, in other words, there 434 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: is a record of his conversation. 435 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 3: What's the big deal? Okay? 436 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: So back to the transcript. Cooby continues, you went into 437 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: the room alone, is that correct? And Scarcela says I 438 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 2: believe I did. Yes, Okay, replies Koby. And you made 439 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 2: contemporaneous notes of important things, yes, okay. Did you ask 440 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: mister Shakur to sign those notes? I don't remember, Scarcella replies, 441 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 2: do you know if he ever did, as I sit 442 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: here now. No. By the way, mister Shakur, he says 443 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 2: he didn't sign any notes. He doesn't even believe notes 444 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: were taken. 445 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 3: Okay. 446 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 2: Back to the transcript, and here's Ron Kuby again. You 447 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: had a suspect who was talkative, he was telling you things. 448 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 2: Kube makes a good point. Listen in Scarcella's account, Shabacca's chatty, 449 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: he's incriminating himself. So Kuby asks, why not get the corroboration, 450 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 2: get Shabaka on camera? Tags back to the transcript. Okay, 451 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: So here's Kube again. Was not the procedure, under the 452 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 2: circumstances at the time to call an assistant district attorney 453 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 2: and try to get this on videotape? Scarcella says, yes, 454 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 2: And did you do that? I don't know if I did. 455 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: I can't. I don't know if I did. I believe 456 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: I did not. So just so you know, there was 457 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: no video made of Shabaka's quote unquote confession. So back 458 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: to the questioning, Okay, did you ask anybody else, either 459 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: of the assigned detectives, to come into the room and 460 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: have mister Schakour repeat the statement that is not indicated 461 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: anywhere on the DD five so I would have to 462 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 2: say no. And then Koby goes in, Okay, and is 463 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: it fair to say that as you sit here right now, 464 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 2: the only proof whatsoever that you know of that mister 465 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 2: Chakour ever made these statements? Was your testifying to it? 466 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: Scarcelli says, yes, So. 467 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 8: The only place where this exists is out of your mouth, right. 468 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 3: Yes. 469 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: The prosecution had no questions for Scarcella. For his part, 470 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: Scarcela felt Kooby was twisting what actually happened. 471 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 10: Well, I had a my dd five made it look 472 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 10: like I framed him. 473 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 8: I felt it was a draw. I never thought at 474 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 8: this hearing that I was going to get Louis Scarcella. 475 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 8: The parameters of the hearing quickly made it clear that 476 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 8: I was not going to get him. My goal was first, 477 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 8: do no harm, which, frankly, if you can get through 478 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 8: Scarcella's testimony and not do yourself harm, I mean that's 479 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 8: a plus. 480 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: Shabaka and Koobi and Leah Busby wait patiently for Judge 481 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: Green's decision. 482 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 3: The judge took another six months to make a decision. 483 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: And then the news finally came in. Holy shit, we won. 484 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 8: We won. 485 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 7: Leah initially called my wife and told her that my 486 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 7: case had been reversed. So I didn't want to get excited. 487 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 7: I said, let me call Leah because you may not 488 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 7: even understand what she said. I called Leah as she said, yeah, 489 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 7: the judge reverse the case. 490 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 8: Then I read the opinion and there were more and 491 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 8: more and more holy shit moments. 492 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: Judge Green wrote, quote, there is a reasonable probability that 493 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: the alleged confession of the defendant was indeed fabricated. Translation 494 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: Scarcella lied. Judge Green reversed Shabaka's conviction. 495 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 10: Judge Green, who I'm not going to talk about. He 496 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 10: made that decision, which is preposterous, preposterous. 497 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: It's important to note the Judge Green did not declare 498 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: Shabaka actually innocent. In other words, he did not exonerate him, 499 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: which means the district attorney could choose to try Shabaka again. 500 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: So now the ball is in the DA's hands. 501 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: The judge player is safe. 502 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 7: He said, I'm going to reverse the conviction, but if 503 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 7: you guys think he's really guilty, take him back to trial. 504 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 7: I'll give you that option. And they initially say, yeah, 505 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 7: we'll take them back to trial. 506 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: In court, Judge Green turns to the district attorney. 507 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: Based on the court's decision, will you retry this case? 508 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 3: Will you appeal and watch your position? Than you. 509 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 8: People do not have the ability to retry to defend it. Therefore, 510 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 8: the people have no alternative but to move to dismiss 511 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 8: the indictment. 512 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 3: The defendants ordered release. 513 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: Kooby steps outside of the courthouse to address the media. 514 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 8: It's been twenty seven very very long years. It's a 515 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 8: long time to take away from another human being. There's 516 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 8: really nothing that can be done except to recognize that 517 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 8: what happened was an avoidable tragedy because Detective Scarsella didn't 518 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 8: act alone. 519 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: Sabacca Leaf's prison in June twenty fifteen. He's fifty years old. 520 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: He had entered at age twenty three. This is Shabaka 521 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: on the day of his release. He's sitting in a 522 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: car with his wife. 523 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 7: Actually, this is like my first time dealing with any 524 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 7: smartphones or laptops. 525 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 3: Okay, how do I get to my Facebook? 526 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 2: Say no, that's not the face of those emails. 527 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 3: It's my first outside of jail. It's a turkey. 528 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 7: Roast turkey on a croissant sandwich with that is tomatoes, 529 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 7: you know, the regular sandwiches and some French fries. I 530 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 7: have my mind set on a lot of different things 531 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 7: that I want to do, so I want to just 532 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 7: I'm anxious to start doing them. 533 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 3: I want to be able to just, you know, experienced life. 534 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: Chbacca heads to Kooby's office to celebrate. Kooby is standing 535 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: near the entrance of his office waiting to greet Chabacca. 536 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 3: How you doing. 537 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: Chavaka is wearing a pair of jeans and a white 538 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: polo shirt patterned with small blue anchors or cry from 539 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: his state greens. His head is shaved and he's wearing glasses. 540 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: Chabacca puts out his hand, but Kobe extends his arm 541 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: and pulls Shabaka into a bear hug. 542 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 3: It's about time, definitely about home. 543 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 2: There's a surprise waiting for him. 544 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 8: You may recognize the voyage, if not the face. 545 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 5: How you doing. 546 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: Chabacca is already shaking Frenchy's hand when she introduces herself. 547 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 1: His demeanor shifts as soon as he realizes it's her. 548 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: His shoulders drop forward, his handshake is more enthusiastic. A 549 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 1: smile stretches across his face. 550 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 3: Oh, I was wondering if he was going to be here. 551 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 3: I'm okay, I'm really good, not. 552 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: Welcome, but the euphoria of that day soon fades. There's 553 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 2: a difference between being free and feeling free. 554 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 7: The emotional aspect of it. I didn't feel till probably 555 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 7: four months after I was home. I know it sounds 556 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 7: weird because you would imagine that I was happy, But 557 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 7: I always thought I was going to get out right. 558 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 7: I always felt that if I was able to tell 559 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 7: my story, they're gonna let me out. 560 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,879 Speaker 3: It wasn't until months later. 561 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 7: I actually remember exactly when I was sitting in a 562 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:40,760 Speaker 7: car driving down the street in Halloween and I seen 563 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 7: people walking by me in costumes. The shack of seeing 564 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 7: people in costumes, you know, I haven't seen in twenty 565 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 7: something years. 566 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 3: It brought tears to my eyes. And then I started 567 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 3: realizing all the work that we had went through. It 568 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 3: just hit me like I'm home. I'm really home. 569 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: Schebacca is out, Scarcella is in trouble, and now Derek 570 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: is setting his sights on finishing what he started with 571 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: the AI team. 572 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 4: See, I can't run off in the sunset if you 573 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 4: get the souls left behind right. I knew Shobacca was innocent. 574 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 4: I knew Robert Hill was innocent. See, when you know 575 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 4: certain things, you can't tell me what I know. I 576 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,439 Speaker 4: know nothing included is innocent. You can't tell me isn't 577 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 4: I know it for a Faggy Innerson Right, your. 578 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 3: Body shaking, I'm got to switch on you. 579 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: You're gonna tell me, I'm gonna turn on you. 580 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 2: The Burden is created by Steve Fishman. It's hosted and 581 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 2: reported by Steve Fishman and myself. Doc's definitely Ross. Our 582 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 2: story editor is Dan Bobkoff. Our senior producer is Simon Rittner. 583 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 2: Our producer is Sonam Skelly. Our associate producer is Austin Smith. 584 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: Our fact checker is Sona Avakian. Our production coordinator is 585 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 2: Davon Paradise. Mixing and sound design is provided by Mumble Media. 586 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Fisher Stevens, Steve Fishman, and Evan Williams. 587 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: Additional production help has been provided by Josie Holtzman, Isaac Kestenbaum, 588 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 2: Naomi Brauner, Lucy Souchek, Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, Priscilla A 589 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 2: labby Saxon Baird, Katie Simon and Katie Springer. You want 590 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 2: to give us special thanks to Ellen Horn, Zach Stuart Pontier, 591 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 2: Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempe to buy a black Rachel Morrissey, 592 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 2: Mark Smirling and Lila Robinson. Special thanks to Marcy Wiseman. 593 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 2: We want to thank our agents, Ben Davis and Marissa Horowitz. 594 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 2: Legal support has been provided by Mona Hook at mksr L, 595 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 2: and a very special thanks to Evan Williams, one of 596 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 2: our executive producers and the person who made this podcast possible. 597 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 2: We are honored to feature the song black Lightning from 598 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 2: The Bell Rays is our theme music. The Burden is 599 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 2: a production of Orbit Media and association with Signal Company 600 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 2: Number one. 601 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 1: Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be 602 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. All 603 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: episodes will be available early and ad free, along with 604 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse, 605 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety 606 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: nine a month.