WEBVTT - #093 Jason Flom with Gloria Killian 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.760 This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:05.800 to monitoring and recording. 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:19.799 Fact ere and it hasn't been easy. 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.720 One hundred years that sad man. I'm a kid. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:25.000 I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.520 that was ah, that was real painful, man, you know, 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.360 because my life was discarded as if you know, like 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.199 I was a piece of trash or something, you know, 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.320 one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:39.120 to do things I wouldn't commit in crimes. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:39.680 You know. 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.160 I was a very good young man. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.080 That is what happens in so many cases. The cops 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.120 have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene, 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.880 they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.320 they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.960 marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so 0:00:58.080 --> 0:00:59.600 many of these wrongful convictions. 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.760 They open it to cell door and I'll walk down 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.920 stif and I actually walked downstairs to be outside. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.679 It felt very strange to. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.920 Be, like I said, to be walking without no shackles 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:13.560 on my feet. 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:15.640 I thought it was a dream. But then again it 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:16.360 wasn't a dream. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:30.200 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back, to wrongful conviction. Today 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:35.280 I have Gloria Chillian, who served seventeen years for a 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.600 murder that well, double murder that of course she had 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:42.240 no part in. And when you hear how this all 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:44.440 came down, you're going to be scratching your head like 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.560 I am now, and with her is one of my 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.920 favorite humans. The senior staff attorney at the Innocence Project, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.960 Nina Morrison. So, Gloria, Nina, welcome, Thank you, Hi Jason. 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.080 And like I always say, I'm glad you're here, but 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:58.160 I'm sorry you're here. 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:00.880 So you know, here than somewhere else. 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:06.000 Yeah. I read about your case in that amazing book, 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:12.120 Anatomy of Innocence by Laura Caldwell, and I was dumbfounded, actually, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.480 I mean forgetting the fact that you look. I mean, 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:17.600 you can't judge a book by its cover, but you 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.040 look so unlike anyone that would be a double murderer 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:23.440 that's actually sort of hard to process. I don't know 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:25.239 if you ever looked like a double murderer back in 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:26.760 nineteen eighty one, did you? 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:26.880 No? 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.000 Hardly, No, not so much. And if you don't believe me, 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.239 just take a look at my Instagram and you'll see 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.480 what I mean, because I posted pictures of Gloria on there, 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:40.560 and then I defy you to identify her as anything 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.160 other than just what she is, just this sweet, lovely 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:44.560 woman that. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:45.960 Was not a master criminal. 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:46.239 No. 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:47.880 In fact, you were a law student. But we'll get 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.040 to that in a minute. And this is a bizarre 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.400 case because on December ninth, nineteen eighty one, just to 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.560 set the stage, two men disguised as telephone repairman this 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:00.640 is what we know, entered the home of an elderly 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:05.280 couple in Rosemont, California. Sounds sort of ominous. Already, Ed 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.200 Davies was fatally shot, his wife, Grace was shot in 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.800 the head but survived, and six suitcases full of silver 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.840 were stolen. I mean, it's like the beginning of a 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:18.760 novel or something. It's weird. Okay. This was obviously a 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:23.040 terrible crime and raised I'm sure a lot of anxiety 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:27.240 in the community, which leads to pressure. But you were 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:32.200 an unlikely suspect for a lot of reasons. I mean, 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:36.280 you weren't anywhere near there. So this whole situation makes 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.720 absolutely no sense to me and for you, I can't 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:41.880 even imagine. So can you take us back to nineteen 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.520 eighty one. Can you explain how this all happened? 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:49.360 Yes, back then I was going to law school. I 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:54.840 also worked as a process server and did small investigative 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.400 work in order to make enough money. I had just 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.520 gone through a divorce and it was not particularly pleasant, 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.160 so we were fighting about everything. So I actually took 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.839 a semester's leave from law school so that I could 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.240 make enough money because it looked like the settlement for 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.880 my divorce wasn't going to go through. I worked for 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:15.720 a man named Virgil Fletcher who owned a coin store. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.719 It was called Allied Coins, and mister Davies was one 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:25.680 of the customers there. We found out later Virgil Fletcher 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.760 did not like mister Davies for some reason which I 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.000 didn't know at the time, which made it even more confusing. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.800 Virgil Fletcher and his partner were splitting up, and that 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:38.920 also was a very acrimonious split, and he and his 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.480 partner were trying to pull everything on each other that 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.000 they could, you know. So what I was doing for 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:48.840 him was a lot of the accounts that had been 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.359 assigned to him. I had to go out and find 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.760 them and do things like that. But this whole case 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:59.000 is centered around coins and coin shop dealers and the 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.080 people that were were fully involved in that scene. At 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.159 that time, there were several robbery murders from people that 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:07.640 were in that particular world. 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.479 And it's interesting too reading back to the story of 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.800 how you were first arrested. I mean, it's sort of 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.640 very cinematic too. Right, you were visiting your boyfriend. I 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.200 guess he was right and preparing to have a little 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:24.240 afternoon delight type situation. And I'm not saying anything that 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:24.640 the book. 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:26.279 Why that always comes up, I don't. 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:28.040 Know, but it's sort of a It sort of does 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.479 paint the picture, and then here comes a knock on 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:30.919 the door. 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.240 Yes, And the knock on the door, unfortunately, was the 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.400 Sacramento County Sheriff's Department. And one of the things that 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.400 you mentioned was, you know, creating a problem in the community. 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:45.240 Sacramento County sheriffs had not solved one single homicide in 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.360 nineteen eighty one. Wow, so they were really pushing on 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.200 this one as well. The Sheriff's department had set up 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.640 a tip line and someone called in. It was a 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.159 woman and it was later to learned that it was 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.320 Virgil Fletcher's girlfriend. He got her to make this call, 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.520 but it's said you should check out a law student 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.400 named Gloria, And that is how the police got to me. 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:13.039 They had interviewed Fletcher the night before and the next 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.240 day when the knock came on the door at the 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.400 most inauspicious time, what they told me was that they 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:22.279 wanted to ask me some questions about Fletcher, which, okay, 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.200 I didn't really get it, but I went downtown with 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.080 them and the minute they got me in a room 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.640 everything changed. That was very cinematic as well. You know, 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.240 you have the poor suspects locked up in the room 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.400 with these guys and they're accusing me of planning this crime. 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.640 They're starting from the position that they know I did 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.520 it and they can prove it. And you know, I 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:44.480 talked to him for a little while and finally I 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.000 just said, you know, this is ridiculous. I want a lawyer. 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.080 When people get picked up as you did, who had 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.640 nothing to do with and had no knowledge of a 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:58.560 situation a crime, they generally go in as you did, 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.760 waving their right to an attorney, expecting that everything's going 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.240 to go smoothly. And you, being a law student, you 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.640 had reason to believe that the system would work. You're 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:10.560 studying the law, and you're a smart woman, so if 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:12.280 you just say what you got to say, you can 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.320 get home in time for the six o'clock news. But 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.160 that was not anything like what happened. 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.040 I actually ended up on the six o'clock news right 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.200 because once they stood up and arrested me and they 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.120 took me outside, I realized this had to have been 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.640 a setup. The media was everywhere. Obviously, they had been 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.400 notified and it had been called, and this had been 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.200 their intention from the very beginning. One of the cops 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.640 I was wearing a long sweater coat, and he took 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:39.920 it and put it over my head, which was the 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:41.280 perfect image right there. 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.200 Right this way they could begin the process of sort 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.160 of shaping public opinion in the way that they wanted to, 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.680 which is to turn you into this master criminal, which 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.280 was again ironic, since you had no prior record of 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:56.520 any kind. Do you think that they actually thought that 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:57.720 you did it at that time? 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.520 I don't know. I do know that years later, when 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:06.960 my investigator went to Sacramento, he interviewed Lieutenant Beyondy, who 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.160 was the head of homicide at that time, and he 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:13.840 asked him specifically if Beyondy thought I was guilty, and 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:19.440 Beyondy said, quote, I don't know, I know Ray thought 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:19.840 she was. 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:22.600 Sounds like sometimes in these cases there's a little thread 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:26.000 where they have one fact that they can't quite figure out, 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:27.440 or a lead, and then they run with it in 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.840 a direction that has no basis in fact, but fits 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.240 what they think they know. Was there a temporarly on 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.440 or some information that a woman had shown up to 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.240 case the house with the two actual killers at. 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:41.080 Some point, yes, And that made the case even more 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:47.440 confusing because that particular I guess pattern style of operating 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.760 had been used in Sacramento County, and one of the 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:54.760 victims was a woman named Elizabeth Lee. Elizabeth Lee happened 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.360 to be in the courthouse when she saw Gary Massey's 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.640 wife and she went running to the nearest dep He's saying, 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.600 that's the woman, Those are the people that robbed me, 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:09.080 And she ran around the courthouse in a state of panic, 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.760 and eventually she ended up talking to Christopher Cleland, who 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.240 was the district attorney who was prosecuting me, and he 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.679 told her if she didn't shut up and get out 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.760 of the courthouse, he would have her arrested. He was 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:26.319 not interested in anything that she had to say. If 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.960 she identified Joanne Massey as a woman who came to 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:32.720 her door with that same particular fact pattern, it would 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.600 just make my guilt even more dubious as far as 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:36.720 a jury was concerned. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.360 Right, it would have made his job more difficult. Yeah, 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:40.600 that was not part of the plan. 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:41.120 No. 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.840 They held you in jail for almost five months awaiting trial. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.800 They tried to get an extension. I was being prosecuted 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.840 by John o'mera at the time, but the judge who 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.200 was hearing the case ruled that there was insufficient evidence 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.160 and he ordered me released right then. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.280 Yeah, there was insufficient evidence. There was noah evidence, and 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.760 you go back home, try to, I guess, rebuild, right. 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.520 I was really in a state of shock and I 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.520 just kind of wandered around, both dazed and numb. But 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.480 I had a horrible feeling in the back of my 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.800 head somewhere that this wasn't over. And I don't know 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.280 why I had that feeling, but I was right, it 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:20.880 wasn't over. 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:23.439 And then there's another knock on the door. 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.839 Yeah. Literally about a year later they came and they 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.880 rearrested me. And this, of course was after Gary Massey 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.880 had gone to trial and had made the deal that 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.000 he had made, which I knew nothing of at the time. 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.440 So Massy was the killer, yes, and he had been 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:41.920 sentenced to life in prison. 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:43.440 Life without the possibility of parole. 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.080 And as soon as he got that sentence, he decided 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:48.120 he was going to try to take a little more 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:51.080 active role than his own sort of destiny, right. He 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:53.280 wanted to make a deal with the cops, and he 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:57.080 immediately contacted the Sheriff's department offering the same day. 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.440 Same day, he went back to the jail and picked 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.000 up the phone and called them and said, I can 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:02.319 help you. 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:04.760 And at that point it's fair to say me and 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.360 I guess he would have said anything they wanted him 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:07.680 to say. 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:09.400 Yeah, it's hard to believe he just suddenly had a 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:11.560 crisis of conscience. On the same day he got sentenced 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.920 to life without parole. And this is again pretty common. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:14.200 You know. 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.880 Sometimes we see people who've committed crimes, who are arrogant, 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.800 assume they're going to get away with it. Suddenly the 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.520 trial or the investigation doesn't go so well. They're facing 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.640 serious time, and then they become desperate and say, what 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.400 can I do to help myself. My lawyers aren't going 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:30.559 to get me out of this. I got to help 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.880 myself and offer up somebody who had nothing to do 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:35.560 with the crime as a way to try to reduce 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.600 their own sentence. That's perfectly legal. They can do that, 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.360 they can offer cooperation, but the law says that the 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:47.040 prosecutor has to turn that information, all discussions, all agreements, 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:51.760 all suggestions or promises of benefits to these witnesses over 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.760 to the accused so that the jury can hear about it. 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:57.840 Because a jury is going to feel very differently about 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.440 someone who they think is getting a better fit to 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:05.560 themselves from turning in another person, versus someone who claims 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:07.800 there's nothing in it for me. I just am doing 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.520 the right thing. And in Massi's case, because he'd already 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.760 been sentenced, it allowed the prosecutor to say he's got 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.840 nothing to gain, he's already going to prison for the 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:17.480 rest of his life. In some ways it makes it 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.480 much more believable because he's doing his time, he's going 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:23.520 to pay the price, and he's just come and clean 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.000 on what really happened, and that wasn't. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.640 The truth, right, And if they would have asked him 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.400 to identify you as the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby. 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.360 That probably would have been what he would have done, 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.720 absolutely right, I mean, because at that point he really 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.680 did have nothing to lose. We know that guy's not 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:38.840 a stand up guy, and he's looking to make a 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.560 deal and they've got a great offer. So he identifies 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.680 you for allegedly planning this crime, and we say incentivized witness, 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:47.760 we could say extremely incentivized witness. In this case. 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.360 Incentivized almost doesn't apply to the treatment that they gave him. 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.320 They took him out to dinner in nice restaurants, They 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.120 let him have sex with his wife in some of 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:02.199 their offices. They he actually took his twelve year old 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.920 son with them when they went up in the hills 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:09.000 with Massey to reclaim the property that he had buried 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:13.400 up there. The district Attorney Kit Cleveland gave this twelve 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.000 year old boy a coin that had come from the robbery. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.640 It had belonged to mister Davies, and allowed him to 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.600 keep it, apparently as some sort of souvenir, which still 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.880 appalled me to this day. I think that's absolutely sick. 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:33.520 It's macabre, yes, very. 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.360 But I'm still trying to get a grip on this. 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.280 So all these perks that he was offered, this was 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:39.800 after he was convicted. 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.079 Yes, people have been convicted of serious crimes can get 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.640 a lot of benefits after they testify. I mean, we've 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.640 got on the Innocent Project website examples of benefits that 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.840 convicted people get while they're in jail, video games, and 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.360 you know, extra visits and hotel rooms when they go 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.480 travel to testify that the rest of us could never afford. 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.760 You know, Thankfully, it doesn't happen in every case, or 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.960 even most cases, but it does happen. And again, the 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:10.000 rule is prosecutor's office can give people benefits within the law, 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.640 depending on whatever the law is of that jurisdiction, but 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.280 they've got to let the defense know. And that's really 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.439 where the outrage comes in because when jurors hear about this, 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.480 if they hear about this criminal getting treated like a king, 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.600 they're obviously going to feel very differently about their testimony. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.320 And prosecutors know that, so they either don't give the 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.000 benefits in the first place, or if they do, they 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:30.880 have to disclose them. 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.640 And the inverse is true too, Like in Sonny Jacob's case, 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.360 when the real murderer wanted to confess, they kept giving 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.400 him perks in prison in order to get him not 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:39.000 to confess. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:39.200 Right. 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:42.480 So that's actually the flip side of the same sort 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.920 of very strange problem. And it is such a strange 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:49.400 thing because everybody knows that you can't bribe a witness, right, 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.520 All kinds of penalties come with that. Nothing good happens 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.720 out of that, but they can anyway, So he identifies you, 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.280 they come and arrest you, and you go to trial. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.320 Actually, when they came and arrested me, they'd charged me 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.760 with the death penalty again, even though Cleland, who was 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.960 now the prosecutor, knew for a fact where he'd gotten 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.320 his new witness from and his new information. But fortunately 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.520 for me, the California Supreme Court made a decision in 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.480 People versus Carlos that took my actual charges out from 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.480 underneath the death penalty. So they released me on bail. 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.240 The judge let me out on twenty five thousand dollars bail, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.920 and I was out for almost three and a half years. 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.960 Crazier and crazier. I mean, I've never been a judge, 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:38.920 but I would say that if I was a judge, 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.920 and I thought that you were responsible for shooting two 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.400 elderly people, killing one of them during a robbery in 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:49.560 cold Blood. I'm not sure twenty five thousand would be 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:51.320 the number I would choose, you know what I mean, 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:53.880 I think it would be a high multiple of that. 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:56.240 So you're out for three and a half years with 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:00.480 this gigantic anvil hanging over your head. How did you 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:01.760 function during that time? 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:02.720 Very poorly? 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:04.640 What did you do? 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.760 Mostly have a nervous breakdown? I mean, I was really 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:12.240 as you said, it's like having an anvil hanging over 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:17.560 your head. It's a true sort of damocles. But I worked. 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.440 It's difficult to explain, and part of it was my 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.400 own state of mind. But it was almost as if 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.840 I didn't have this case. I never went to court 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.720 except to get an extension. Nobody seemed to be interested 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.520 in me. Nobody paid any attention to me until everything 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:37.960 else was done. The other problem was that I could 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.800 no longer afford private counsel. I had hired a lawyer 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.840 from my first arrest. This time I had a lawyer 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.240 who was appointed from the Appellate defenders because the public 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.960 defenders were already involved in Massey's case, and I guess 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.600 he was just good enough to get me convicted. 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.400 Well, it's good enough to process you, but not represent you. Right, 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:02.040 it's pretty nuts that you were sentenced to thirty two 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:02.720 years to life. 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:03.000 Right. 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.960 Oh. Yes, the prosecutor on the day that I was sentenced, 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.960 and the standard sentence for this type of case would 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.760 have been twenty five years to life, but mister Cleland 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:14.960 stood up in court and he went on to this 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.440 short rant about how I'd always been a model citizen, 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:21.400 I'd never been in trouble, I was going to law school, 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.879 and therefore I should get more time than anybody. And 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.240 the judge granted his request and they sentenced me to 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.280 thirty two years to life, despite the fact that the 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.680 actual killer was already going to be sentenced to twenty 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:34.639 five years to life. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.679 Right, So you got an extra seven years for allegedly 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:42.320 planning this crime. Yes, and when you're experiencing that, this 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.240 doesn't seem like and I don't want to come off 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:46.919 sounding the wrong way, but this doesn't seem like the 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:49.840 type of crime that a young woman who's on her 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:51.840 way up in the world as a law student would 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.880 participate in. Like if you were really desperate for money, 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:57.240 would you go and rob and shoot an elderly couple 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:58.240 to steal some silver. 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.359 I mean, a lot of our clients get prosecuted on 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.520 theories that make absolutely no sense, you know. And oftentimes 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.440 what we find in these wrongful conviction cases is the 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.840 police come up with a suspect or a theory and 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.560 then come up with a motive to make it fit. 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:18.320 So they think that somebody must have killed his spouse 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.159 or girlfriend, and even though there's no history of animosity, 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.680 they come up with a crazy hypothesis. Like our client 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:26.960 Michael Morton in Texas, they said he killed his wife 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:28.760 because she wouldn't have sex with him on his birthday 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.639 because she was tired, because they had been out to 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.000 dinner with their toddler son and he was disappointed they 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.520 didn't have sex, which is true because he left a 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.320 note along those lines, but he didn't kill her over it. 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.280 And in Glorious case, there's some indications that they thought 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.679 that there was a woman involved helping them case the 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.119 joint and then it seems like somebody came up with 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.240 this concept like, oh, maybe it's that law student who's 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.720 hanging around with that coin dealer she's a smart broad, 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.760 maybe she's the mastermind, and they ran with it. The 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.320 problem is there was no evidence to supported except these 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:07.240 incentivized witnesses facing criminal charges themselves, and in some cases 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.400 like Glorias, they build an entire prosecution around these highly 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.399 dubious witnesses and an unsupported theory. 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.840 I mean, there was no evidence whatsoever except for the 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.280 word of the killer. Yes, I mean it almost seems 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.840 like that should be not okay, not okay. 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.080 Well, state courts are free to set the parameters of 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:28.879 what constitutes sufficient evidence to convict someone. So just because 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.560 a jury says you're guilty doesn't mean the conviction stands. 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.719 That's not even because of new evidence, but even just 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.879 evaluating what happens at trials. A lot of times courts 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.840 will undertake what's called a sufficiency review and say that's 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:43.960 just not enough. In Texas, for example, of all places, 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.679 the highest criminal court has ruled that you cannot be 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:52.320 convicted of murder based on the uncorroborated testimony of an accomplice. 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.840 So if someone were to be charged in a situation 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.399 like Gloria's, where the only evidence against them was the 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:00.000 word of one or two people who admitted their own 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.760 involvement in the crime. You couldn't be convicted without corroboration. 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:06.439 The problem is that in a lot of places that 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:10.639 even have those rules, almost anything counts as corroboration. So 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.399 one eyewitness saying oh, I saw someone who looked like 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:16.720