Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, o Morris, as my mother would say, so
Speaker 1: far on when you're invisible, We've gotten to talk to
Speaker 1: a lot of different people who have shaped me and
Speaker 1: who I am and how I think about the world.
Speaker 1: From the guys at the Package Center who shaped the
Speaker 1: very first days of my adulthood. So then getting to
Speaker 1: take a deeper dive with my community, with people like
Speaker 1: Anicia and Kate and Lonnie and the workers from Ground Zero.
Speaker 1: And another person who has shaped that for me is
Speaker 1: my brother, who is one of my best friends. This year,
Speaker 1: he married this amazing person, Amanda, and she happens to
Speaker 1: be from a white role working class background, and that
Speaker 1: brought a whole new community into my life. Amanda has
Speaker 1: three siblings, one of them whose experiences I'd like to
Speaker 1: share with you today is her older sister Jen Jen
Speaker 1: and I started talking about what it was like from
Speaker 1: her perspective when Amanda and Francisco started dating. I'm is
Speaker 1: happy because you could see that it was important, because
Speaker 1: she had the little bounce on her step and she'd
Speaker 1: light up over just having a conversation. And then what
Speaker 1: did you think of my brother when he finally met
Speaker 1: him in person? Well, I had already known a little
Speaker 1: bit because you know, I'm a snoop and so I'll
Speaker 1: look on Facebook stuff. He's so wonderful. But he's also
Speaker 1: like you know, he's Francisco, so he shows up sometimes
Speaker 1: with like a button up like floral. I love his
Speaker 1: swag and the way he dresses. I love it. He's
Speaker 1: such a good conversationalist. You guys all talk and conversations
Speaker 1: go in detailed and I like that. So right away
Speaker 1: I feel like I hit it off with him because
Speaker 1: I want to hear more. We learn from each other, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is awesome because this podcast for me is that
Speaker 1: I love having conversations with people, and I think there's
Speaker 1: so much to learn from each other. The way we
Speaker 1: can be generous in storytelling, right, so many things come
Speaker 1: out when you have a good conversation. You have to
Speaker 1: open yourself up and be prepared to just listen to
Speaker 1: what somebody else has to say. And he's very good
Speaker 1: at that, and he can talk to almost anyone, I think,
Speaker 1: and that's a great skill to have for some people
Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, he's really brilliant at that. I've
Speaker 1: always admired him for it. Also, he writes the best
Speaker 1: birthday cards. Really, Yeah, they're my favorite. How nice that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's so sweet And like I loved meeting Amanda too.
Speaker 1: Amanda was great for my brother. Similarly, there was more
Speaker 1: of just an ease and a fun about him and
Speaker 1: just like an openness that came with him meeting Amanda.
Speaker 1: He isn't that's so great? Right? You wouldn't have thought
Speaker 1: the two of them would have hit it off or
Speaker 1: even known each other except for the Internet stuff. You know,
Speaker 1: they would have never met each other any other way.
Speaker 1: And they're both up for anything, and I love that,
Speaker 1: you know, they really are, and whatever you need, sure,
Speaker 1: let's do it, or let's go here, let's play this game,
Speaker 1: or you know, hang out. It was really interesting to
Speaker 1: see how our families came together. We mostly grew up
Speaker 1: in the Midwest. They mostly grew up on the East Coast.
Speaker 1: They're from a rural area. We're from mostly cities or
Speaker 1: small towns. I grew up with two cultures, three languages,
Speaker 1: and I traveled a lot, and Jenna spent most of
Speaker 1: her life in one town. It's interesting to me that
Speaker 1: my brother chose someone who is actually in like working
Speaker 1: class white America. I remember initially being a little nervous
Speaker 1: because unfortunately, while I am very much like a champion
Speaker 1: working class people, we get to be around a lot
Speaker 1: of like minded people. Ultimately, so getting to become a
Speaker 1: part of a family where I was like, oh, there
Speaker 1: might be incredibly different perspectives than me. What does that
Speaker 1: look like? And who are these people? The white girl
Speaker 1: working class is so often depicted in the mainstream media
Speaker 1: as just Trump supporters, but we actually don't hear a
Speaker 1: lot of diverse opinions from this group. And honestly, there's
Speaker 1: different layers of this community in our country, and oftentimes
Speaker 1: those layers are invisible. And I wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: Jen because she's from this community and to get to
Speaker 1: know her on a deeper level. She's felt invisible in
Speaker 1: her life in different ways through the isolating experience of
Speaker 1: grief as a single mom, struggling at times to fit
Speaker 1: in with her community and even within her family and
Speaker 1: relationships at times. You guys, are witnessing one of, if
Speaker 1: not the first, most in depth conversation she and I
Speaker 1: have had. So it's getting up close and personal with
Speaker 1: a new member of my family, and I am incredibly
Speaker 1: thankful for Gen's ability to open up to me throughout
Speaker 1: this conversation and sharing her experiences. Welcome to When You're Invisible.
Speaker 1: My name is Maria fernand but I know not everyone can.
Speaker 1: Well there are, so it's also fine to call me Maria.
Speaker 1: In today's world, we love to tell stories about people
Speaker 1: who have reached the top, like people who have achieved
Speaker 1: positions of cloud wealth power. On this show, I won't
Speaker 1: be doing that. When You're Invisible is my love letter
Speaker 1: to the working class and others who are seemingly invisible
Speaker 1: in our society. I helped to build a community here
Speaker 1: that will inspire you to have generous conversations with others
Speaker 1: that are different from you, conversations that might help you
Speaker 1: see life in an entirely different way. How is your day?
Speaker 1: It was a good busy day. I work at a school.
Speaker 1: What do you do at the school now? I am
Speaker 1: the superintendent secretary of an elementary pre k to eight school.
Speaker 1: It's a small district, so I work right in the
Speaker 1: main office. Oh my gosh, what's an everyday like? Well,
Speaker 1: I'm right there at arrival and dismissal. I have to
Speaker 1: know what buses come in, make sure all the kids
Speaker 1: get to their classes on time. So as you grew
Speaker 1: up your secretary to a superintendent now and you worked
Speaker 1: for the housing authority. What else it like, have you done.
Speaker 1: I'm always curious what people have done for work, if
Speaker 1: that informs how you live the rest of your hours
Speaker 1: without a job, or like the mentality you walk in with.
Speaker 1: I have always thought of myself as a dreamer. I
Speaker 1: have tons of ideas careers or businesses, just not for me,
Speaker 1: for other people. To me, college was never really an option.
Speaker 1: I did well in school, but I never really was
Speaker 1: pushed that way. So I graduated high school and got
Speaker 1: a job where my mom worked at a factory and
Speaker 1: they worked there for a while. What kind of factory
Speaker 1: it was? Clement Pappus and then Red Packet was like
Speaker 1: a tomato processing factory. My mom didn't payroll in the
Speaker 1: office there, and I got a job in the distribution area,
Speaker 1: just office work. I've already done office work. Yeah. Do
Speaker 1: you feel like part of the reason you weren't pushed
Speaker 1: towards college was the time? Yeah? Because I graduated in
Speaker 1: high school in eighty nine, So yes, I knew people
Speaker 1: that were going to college, but it wasn't made like
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessary. And then in the nineties, people had
Speaker 1: children and they're like, yeah, no way, Jose, my kids
Speaker 1: are going to college. You do need that time to
Speaker 1: grow up. You know. There's all different ways to learn things.
Speaker 1: You have to decide if you want to learn no
Speaker 1: more be stuck in your own ways. I was up
Speaker 1: for whatever, you know. If I felt like I could
Speaker 1: do it and I understood what it was, then I
Speaker 1: would try. I worked at a pumpkin patch too, but
Speaker 1: I quit that and like that, and I worked for
Speaker 1: two years at a trash company in the office. What
Speaker 1: do you feel like is the biggest thing you've learned
Speaker 1: from all your experiences. I don't know. Um, I think
Speaker 1: everyone needs to you know, not preaching. We all need
Speaker 1: a little more patients with each other, with ourselves. I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed listening to Jen talk about different experiences that
Speaker 1: helped shape who she is today. And I particularly enjoyed
Speaker 1: hearing about what it's like to grow up in rural
Speaker 1: America because it's so different from what I've experienced, so
Speaker 1: it was brand new. I feel like I had a
Speaker 1: really good upbringing. I grew up in Cedarville. There was
Speaker 1: very few people here and not a lot to do. Obviously,
Speaker 1: no public transportation, and you had to walk everywhere. It
Speaker 1: was very rural. But as soon as I had children,
Speaker 1: that's exactly where I wanted to raise them. You know,
Speaker 1: I knew that it felt right me. We went outside,
Speaker 1: We used our imagination, and my parents were very good
Speaker 1: if they did a lot with us. You know, we
Speaker 1: went camping into the beach all the time, and we
Speaker 1: have a huge family and there was always something going on.
Speaker 1: They kept us very busy. They made us work very hard.
Speaker 1: When you said that you guys had to work hard,
Speaker 1: did you do chores in the homework, or did you
Speaker 1: also have a job while you're growing up that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. We did chores, and we didn't have a farm,
Speaker 1: but we had five acres and my dad wanted to
Speaker 1: be a farmer. We kind of sat on a back road,
Speaker 1: so everybody dropped their dogs back then, in like the
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties, if a dog got pregnant or somebody moved.
Speaker 1: They didn't treat animals the way people mostly do now.
Speaker 1: So our house ended up being the homeless shelter for
Speaker 1: all these strange animals. At one time, Maria, we had
Speaker 1: nineteen dogs, not in the house, they were all out side,
Speaker 1: but we fed them all bathed on. We had more
Speaker 1: than a hundred chickens we had to take care of,
Speaker 1: and gardens. I wouldn't even call a garden because, oh
Speaker 1: my goodness, it was hundreds of feet long and many rows.
Speaker 1: And so we did it ourselves. What did you guys grow?
Speaker 1: We grew everything in corn, tomatoes and radishes and pumpkins,
Speaker 1: and then my mom would freeze it. We had a
Speaker 1: lot of geese, and then I had a pony, which
Speaker 1: was nice. The pony. Actually, it's a funny story. It
Speaker 1: was the summertime and I had to babysit my brothers,
Speaker 1: and so I would get up earlier than them, and
Speaker 1: I went out to feed the cats outside and do
Speaker 1: my animal stuff, and something's making a noise over in
Speaker 1: the little field next to the house, and I look
Speaker 1: over and there's a pony tied to the tree. Apparently
Speaker 1: the pony was from like a mile or so away
Speaker 1: and had broken out of their fence. But the pony
Speaker 1: was so bad that they didn't go looking for it.
Speaker 1: What child's dream isn't to have a pony? Like the
Speaker 1: minute you said that, I was like, what, Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was especially fun for the first day. One time it
Speaker 1: broke out of the little pasture area we had for
Speaker 1: it and broke other horses out of their fenced in areas.
Speaker 1: I had to leave school to go and take back
Speaker 1: two horses and the pony to our house. Jen eventually
Speaker 1: returns to Cedarville with her kids, but they actually move
Speaker 1: to another town in those early years of raising her family.
Speaker 1: I moved to Shamok and p i for ten years,
Speaker 1: very small town. What do you feel like is the
Speaker 1: biggest difference between the two. That's just different cultures from
Speaker 1: South Jersey and farming to the mountains in Pennsylvania and
Speaker 1: coal mining. You know, different history is what shows what
Speaker 1: your culture is, what things are normal. Can you describe
Speaker 1: some of the differences between Shimokin and where you grew up.
Speaker 1: One of the biggest things to me is how they
Speaker 1: raised their children. Those children were allowed that they could
Speaker 1: very young walk the little town by themselves, and I
Speaker 1: could never understand that that was the biggest thing. It's
Speaker 1: a little different pace, it's a little slower, and there
Speaker 1: was not as much opportunity. There's no employment there. You
Speaker 1: would have to go to Harrisburg, which was an hour away.
Speaker 1: I've never been to Cedarville so I haven't gotten to
Speaker 1: experience Jen and her family and Amanda in their home base.
Speaker 1: But I did get to spend the fourth of July
Speaker 1: with them two years ago, and it was really lovely.
Speaker 1: It was the first time I met any of them.
Speaker 1: It was also the first time we went wedding dress
Speaker 1: shopping for Amanda. It was fun to watch them all
Speaker 1: be super supportive and be like, you look so beautiful
Speaker 1: in all of it, and it reminds me a lot
Speaker 1: of my family. It was really cool to see we
Speaker 1: both did this. We're a little more uggy because Latinos
Speaker 1: like hug and kiss everybody, but they were still super warm.
Speaker 1: It's cool to be like, we come from two very
Speaker 1: different cultures. I'm like, whoa, that's so cool to me.
Speaker 1: I'm like that blending. It's fantastic that all of our
Speaker 1: families seemed to mesh well and everyone was very open
Speaker 1: to getting to know each other a little bit and
Speaker 1: different things. And that's what we're supposed to do. It
Speaker 1: to be honest as humans, you know, like as people
Speaker 1: were supposed to give each other that little bit of
Speaker 1: respect and understanding and then teach me, show me what
Speaker 1: you do. I mean, I went to Mexico once when
Speaker 1: I was a kid, but I've never really had I mean,
Speaker 1: I had a friend for a long time we passed away,
Speaker 1: and she was Puerto Rican. But it's completely different because
Speaker 1: it's a different country. Yes, it's very different, and and
Speaker 1: like that's what I think is like really beautiful to
Speaker 1: also see because we all get stereotyped sometimes and we're different,
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh yeah, we can be seen as that.
Speaker 1: Just because I was raised a certain way or you
Speaker 1: were raised a certain way. It doesn't mean that either
Speaker 1: one of us are correct. I'm not better than You're
Speaker 1: just different. Mm hmmm. So how did your parents grew up?
Speaker 1: My dad grew up in Williamstown and my mom grew
Speaker 1: up in southern Ohio. Like her family were hillbillies. I
Speaker 1: have a picture of her grandfather in a rocking chair
Speaker 1: in front of the cabin with no grass in the yard,
Speaker 1: any of like fourteen kids in this little cabin. So
Speaker 1: they were very hillbilly, very southern where Ohio meets into Kentucky.
Speaker 1: One thing that separates Jen from her family is that
Speaker 1: she's the first person to date outside her race. And
Speaker 1: that was one of the reasons I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to Jen in the first place, because Jen did experience
Speaker 1: pushback for that. Her mom especially struggled to accept the
Speaker 1: fact that her daughter had married a black man. I
Speaker 1: married this man and my mom did not come to
Speaker 1: my wedding or talked to me for like, Yeah, how
Speaker 1: did that feel? Did you have a conversation around it
Speaker 1: before that happened? Did you guys have a fight And
Speaker 1: when was the moment you found out your mom was
Speaker 1: like that? Oh, I knew that before I started dating him.
Speaker 1: I knew that when I was in elementary school. I
Speaker 1: was friends with Tyrone. We were just friends seventh and
Speaker 1: eighth grade and he called and I was on the
Speaker 1: phone with him, and she came over and she took
Speaker 1: that phone out of my hand and she hung it
Speaker 1: up and she said, you will not talk to him.
Speaker 1: And my dad got mad, you know, he was like, yes,
Speaker 1: you will. That was a battle between them. Like my
Speaker 1: dad and his family, they never talked about people like that.
Speaker 1: My dad did not allow the N word at all
Speaker 1: around him, did not allow it. Do you feel like
Speaker 1: that was something that happened in your community where you
Speaker 1: grew up, where the N word would be used? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Oh god, yea, And people will still talk to me
Speaker 1: today because I'm white that they think I feel the
Speaker 1: same as they do, you know. And the first thing
Speaker 1: I want to do is, hey, do you see my kids? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Which right, what is it like as a white woman
Speaker 1: who does get some of that? And you're like, no,
Speaker 1: my kids are biracial, and like, oh, they're surprised. I
Speaker 1: was the same as my dad. I never allowed any
Speaker 1: of that. And it didn't matter what it was. You
Speaker 1: don't say those derogatory words. Kids here things. They want
Speaker 1: to know what they mean. We don't treat anybody different,
Speaker 1: anybody that ever came over. Those kids get the same
Speaker 1: exact thing you do. And I think it's part of
Speaker 1: it is My parents got divorced when I was fifteen, fourteen,
Speaker 1: maybe even younger than that. Said that it was two
Speaker 1: separate households, so like she ran her ship the one
Speaker 1: way he did. And then I moved out when I
Speaker 1: was seventeen anyway, and I went and lived my dad.
Speaker 1: So I had already was on the fence with her.
Speaker 1: She was mad about that way before. I didn't get
Speaker 1: married until he was twenty, not like it was, but
Speaker 1: it was like a couple of years down the road.
Speaker 1: But yeah, she didn't know. She didn't like it, but
Speaker 1: eventually when I had Sam, she changed. Jen had two
Speaker 1: kids with her first husband, Sam, who was her oldest daughter,
Speaker 1: and c J, who's her middle child. Did having grandkids
Speaker 1: change her perspective? It did? Do you feel like there's
Speaker 1: remnants of it. It's taken her a long time to understand,
Speaker 1: but she has changed and she'll even stand up against
Speaker 1: other people now you know that say things and she'll
Speaker 1: say I was wrong. So she is a lot better.
Speaker 1: So it did take all of that. See, she could
Speaker 1: have been small minded forever and lost out on opportunities
Speaker 1: to spend her life around her family. People do those things,
Speaker 1: and you know it takes a lot. What do you
Speaker 1: feel like? Makes people feel like they have to feel
Speaker 1: better than another group of people? People want to feel special, yea,
Speaker 1: They want to feel more than so sometimes making other
Speaker 1: people feel bad makes them feel better. Or maybe is
Speaker 1: it fear of someone encroaching on something they have They
Speaker 1: feel like they're going to lose it because someone else
Speaker 1: is there or I don't know what it is because
Speaker 1: it comes into all kinds of things, race, religion, financial background, ethnicity,
Speaker 1: all different things. Hearing that story about Jen's mom changing
Speaker 1: is good to hear, and yet it is complicated to hear.
Speaker 1: To me, it's crazy how it can take another human being,
Speaker 1: like who is it already your own daughter to like
Speaker 1: change your reality and your perspective. That it took her
Speaker 1: being a grandmother, that it took her seeing like a
Speaker 1: brand new baby being born into the world to start
Speaker 1: to change her for perspective. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for it, because there are people out there
Speaker 1: who would never change and choose not to change at all,
Speaker 1: and much less even say anything about that change. Like
Speaker 1: I also believe strongly in the ability to admit the mistake,
Speaker 1: like when you are able to literally say out loud,
Speaker 1: I used to be this way and I was wrong.
Speaker 1: I also have much more respect for working class people
Speaker 1: who choose to change and choose to open and choose
Speaker 1: to be more willing, because, like I do believe, when
Speaker 1: you are afforded more opportunity, when you are afforded more privileged,
Speaker 1: when you are afforded more traveling, and you still maintain
Speaker 1: a closed mind perspective, or you still choose not to
Speaker 1: do the research, that's a different kind of ignorance, and
Speaker 1: that is to me a more malicious kind of ignorance.
Speaker 1: It seems like some of Jen's family has clearly had
Speaker 1: to work through and grappl with some important social issues,
Speaker 1: and it seems like they're open to change. So thinking
Speaker 1: about this, I was curious as to how all this
Speaker 1: translates in how they vote and how they talk about
Speaker 1: politics outright? Were you guys like a political family? Was
Speaker 1: politics part of your life? We always voted. I always
Speaker 1: knew that it was something I had to do. My
Speaker 1: grandma wanted to see my vote sticker every year. Did
Speaker 1: you vote? Where's your sticker? That's so interesting? Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it was weird. I always knew that it was something
Speaker 1: I had to do, you know, and if, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I didn't vote, oh my gosh, you have to vote.
Speaker 1: It was a big deal. And I'm also from a
Speaker 1: time when my mom had me. She was not allowed
Speaker 1: to have a checking account. You know, she had no
Speaker 1: credit card, no checking account. It was everything was in
Speaker 1: my dad's name. And I don't feel that old people
Speaker 1: don't realized that it wasn't. I mean, I guess fifty
Speaker 1: years is a lot, but to me, it's not. She
Speaker 1: wasn't somebody that we didn't go out and protest things,
Speaker 1: but you made sure that you had knowledge on what
Speaker 1: was going on, and you voted what you felt was
Speaker 1: the right way for everything, not just for president. No
Speaker 1: one really talked about who you voted for. We didn't
Speaker 1: have big political conversations. Do you guys talk about it
Speaker 1: now or now? We do, especially since two thousand sixteen. Right,
Speaker 1: of course, I feel it for everyone. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: did it ever? So we do talk about it now,
Speaker 1: but it's also in your face more, it's everywhere. How
Speaker 1: do those conversations go over pretty civil or do you
Speaker 1: feel like it gets heated? I have one brother and
Speaker 1: sister in law that it could get heated, so I
Speaker 1: didn't try to avoid it a little bit because there's
Speaker 1: been some hurt feelings, and these are also things that
Speaker 1: they're gonna have to figure out on their own. But
Speaker 1: we don't dwell on those things, because the funny thing
Speaker 1: is we mostly all agree on a lot of things
Speaker 1: how to treat people. So then I don't understand how
Speaker 1: you can writewards that one side, you know, but movement
Speaker 1: eventually it'll just level out a little bit, it Right,
Speaker 1: That's definitely a hope I like to talk about the
Speaker 1: stuff that's going on. But I do try to stay
Speaker 1: with the people that are like minded. I don't want
Speaker 1: to have heated conversation. One of the biggest reasons is
Speaker 1: because I don't know enough to have a good conversation
Speaker 1: and to be I could have a conversation and just
Speaker 1: say how I feel about something, but I definitely can't
Speaker 1: stand on a soapbox and defend something, which is so
Speaker 1: important to say out loud, I think because I think
Speaker 1: sometimes people get stuck or they believe, oh, I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to stand on the soapbox and say everything, or like
Speaker 1: I feel insecure, so I'm gonna do it rather than
Speaker 1: be like I think most of us don't know. You
Speaker 1: have to know what you're talking about if you're going
Speaker 1: to stand up for something. If I were to do that,
Speaker 1: and then I would make sure that I researched and
Speaker 1: I understood what was going on and the best I could.
Speaker 1: But don't stand there and act like you know, because normal,
Speaker 1: regular everyday people that don't study this stuff and really
Speaker 1: spend time analyzing it. We don't know all that stuff.
Speaker 1: We don't know what's all going on. You know, you'll
Speaker 1: only have to try to do the best you can.
Speaker 1: It is hard to vote and you don't know enough,
Speaker 1: but I try to go with people that are at
Speaker 1: least calling. Stay tuned for more from one Year Invisible.
Speaker 1: After this break, welcome back to one Year Invisible. I
Speaker 1: started a family when I was twenty one. I was
Speaker 1: married to my first husband for ten years. Jen met
Speaker 1: her first husband when she was nineteen while they were
Speaker 1: both working at a local factory. Some of the things
Speaker 1: that caught her eye was his nice smile and his
Speaker 1: love of reading and travel, which are two of her
Speaker 1: favorite things. He was a smooth talker and impressed her
Speaker 1: with a lot of attention and new experiences. Eventually, the
Speaker 1: two of them and their kids moved to Pennsylvania, where
Speaker 1: she was away from the rest of her family. During
Speaker 1: these first crucial years of her young adult life, some
Speaker 1: really difficult things happened that she was isolated and often
Speaker 1: alienated for as a result. I went through a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff with him. My first husband went to prison.
Speaker 1: Wasn't something I did. I didn't have anything to do
Speaker 1: with it. While I was married to him, living in Shimokin,
Speaker 1: which like I said, was a very small town, I
Speaker 1: worked at the housing Authority. He actually was a construction
Speaker 1: manager for a pretty good company. He had a decent job.
Speaker 1: He just had drug issues. He went to jail. He
Speaker 1: did not go to jail for drugs. He went to
Speaker 1: jail for rate. Wow. I had to sit through that.
Speaker 1: I had to listen to that. I had children to
Speaker 1: raise in that town, and I chose to stay there
Speaker 1: for another six years after he went to jail. It
Speaker 1: was very hard. There was articles in the newspaper. Everyone
Speaker 1: knew what was going on. And that was a town
Speaker 1: where if you wrote a bad check that went in
Speaker 1: a newspaper. Every story was a story. So how do
Speaker 1: I raise my children because that's not the life that
Speaker 1: I was brought up in, or wanted to raise my
Speaker 1: children in, or even thought that I was getting involved in.
Speaker 1: I had to figure out what was important to me
Speaker 1: and try to get up every day and put in
Speaker 1: as much effort as I can, and if I have
Speaker 1: a bad day, then I have to again be patient
Speaker 1: with myself. And I think that really changed my views
Speaker 1: on things. I'm in awe because one as a person
Speaker 1: who loved someone and who thought of someone in a
Speaker 1: certain way, and you're like, holy sh it, that's not
Speaker 1: who you are or now there's this new thing. Having
Speaker 1: to deal with that, and then also having to be
Speaker 1: a mother and being like, how do I explain it
Speaker 1: to you? Do you feel like you figured out how
Speaker 1: to explain it to them? No, it was very difficult.
Speaker 1: Sam was six and c J was four. No, maybe
Speaker 1: younger than the three and five. No, it was always
Speaker 1: very difficult. They both attended a program Headstart for three
Speaker 1: year old. Great program, but teachers actually came to your
Speaker 1: house once every other week, and you, as the parent,
Speaker 1: would plan an activity for the teacher and the children.
Speaker 1: And we lived at the time on the top of
Speaker 1: a mountain, so one of the things we would do
Speaker 1: is go out and do berry hunting and we'd come
Speaker 1: back and make muffins or a pie. Well, I had
Speaker 1: the teachers say I'm not coming to your house because
Speaker 1: of what was going on, and he was not in
Speaker 1: the home. I understand that. I never argued with her
Speaker 1: or it took it out, but I had to explain
Speaker 1: that because we had planned and that was such a letdown,
Speaker 1: you know, and they were young. I think about how
Speaker 1: women and children often become collateral damage and tough situation.
Speaker 1: We talked about this generalized community. Yet it's truly just
Speaker 1: a group of people, and we as individuals can change
Speaker 1: the course of that community, and as a result, changed
Speaker 1: the course of individuals lives. And I think to me,
Speaker 1: Jen and the kids could have used more support than
Speaker 1: they got. You don't know how much stays with them
Speaker 1: and then questioning things. And then I took them to
Speaker 1: see him in prison, which was it a mistake? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I divorced him. They knew that, you know,
Speaker 1: he was okay with that, But I still took them
Speaker 1: every other month because he was also right there. The
Speaker 1: state prison was right in the same five miles, not
Speaker 1: even and his nurse was my daughter's best friend's mother,
Speaker 1: you know, the nurse in prison. It was tough, you know.
Speaker 1: But I could have ran away, I could have came home.
Speaker 1: I don't know if what I did was right or wrong,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to be strong. I wanted to show
Speaker 1: my kids that I can do this on my own,
Speaker 1: we can do this together. How is your family during
Speaker 1: that difficult time. Do you feel like you got the
Speaker 1: support you needed? I did. My mom and my dad
Speaker 1: and all my brothers did something to help me. At
Speaker 1: some point or another. I let the pipes freeze in
Speaker 1: the house and at one time what was accident. It
Speaker 1: was the mountains. It was cold. I didn't realize that
Speaker 1: they would freeze, and so my uncle and my dad
Speaker 1: and my brother had to come up and crawl under
Speaker 1: the house and fix it. I would meet my mom
Speaker 1: with the kids and we would go and do different things,
Speaker 1: little day trips and stuff. Yeah, I had support and
Speaker 1: they wanted me to do what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1: And nobody had any real money though school clothes. Everybody
Speaker 1: would pitch in and help a little bit if needed.
Speaker 1: But you have to figure this stuff out on your
Speaker 1: own too. It was a very difficult time. And you
Speaker 1: know that I lost my son se J and he
Speaker 1: had gotten on drugs. Again. I don't know what it
Speaker 1: was that went into all this. As Jen talks about
Speaker 1: this incredibly tragic experience of losing her child, she is
Speaker 1: scrappling and going back and forth between the experiences that
Speaker 1: led to that moment, and often as contemplating as I'm
Speaker 1: sure many parents do, the idea of what could have
Speaker 1: done different. Because then he got out of jail and
Speaker 1: c J was eight and I spent two years just
Speaker 1: he was a problem, and then I moved the kids
Speaker 1: here to New Jersey, and so then I was just
Speaker 1: the meanest person in the world at that time. CJ
Speaker 1: was in sixth grade and Sam was an eighth So
Speaker 1: I don't know what was right or wrong, what would
Speaker 1: have made a difference. Both of them had great memories
Speaker 1: of other things because I worked really hard to make
Speaker 1: sure that we had also so many fun times. Yes,
Speaker 1: we worked, but they ended up having great friends and
Speaker 1: it was families that got to know us and didn't
Speaker 1: judge by what was going on. Yeah, which is a
Speaker 1: huge testament of character, it is, And so that's what
Speaker 1: I wanted them to see. I thought, in the end,
Speaker 1: we can run and hide from this, or we can
Speaker 1: just accept it because it's not going to be the
Speaker 1: only bad thing that happens in our lives. I think
Speaker 1: that's a really important lesson to learn, because life happens
Speaker 1: and you sometimes have you know, like no control control,
Speaker 1: and like was it good or bad? It just is?
Speaker 1: It just is. That's what I decided, and that's what
Speaker 1: I tried to do when they tried to stick with it,
Speaker 1: you know, um, until I couldn't anymore. Right, right, So,
Speaker 1: if it's not something you want to talk about or
Speaker 1: anything like that it's totally okay here that losing a
Speaker 1: child is one of the hardest things you have to
Speaker 1: go through as a parent. What brings you comfort? How
Speaker 1: have you worked through or wrestled through or lived with
Speaker 1: that grief? Lived with is a good way to explain
Speaker 1: it to me, and I do believe everyone is. It's personal.
Speaker 1: It's your own thoughts, you get in your own head,
Speaker 1: so you have to figure out how you are going
Speaker 1: to live with it. Because personally, I have not done
Speaker 1: enough for myself with that. So I dwell on things
Speaker 1: and I shouldn't. I need to go figure that out.
Speaker 1: I haven't taken the time for myself, and I think
Speaker 1: it's really important if people do. It is definitely something
Speaker 1: that you don't wish on anyone. But there are so
Speaker 1: many people that have lost their children, and you know,
Speaker 1: the drug epidemic in this country is awful, and nobody
Speaker 1: wants to really talk about it, and no matter what
Speaker 1: anybody says, there are no real answers or support. There's
Speaker 1: are people that are trying it. To me, there's not
Speaker 1: enough being done. And it's not just for myself, it's
Speaker 1: for so many people. We just had another kid that
Speaker 1: Sam went to school with her brother just died the
Speaker 1: other day, and these kids are now thirty. But it's
Speaker 1: not only that, even if you lose a child to
Speaker 1: other things, for cancer or car accidents and unthinkable horrible things.
Speaker 1: I definitely think that you can't do it on your own.
Speaker 1: I don't practice when I preach. It's been hard for
Speaker 1: Jen to reach out to her wider community and professionals
Speaker 1: to help her with her grief. And my excuses that
Speaker 1: I live very rural and there's not a lot of
Speaker 1: options there are now online and I need to take
Speaker 1: the time for that self care and figure that out myself.
Speaker 1: But it's a very personal thing that people go through
Speaker 1: and blame myself for so many things. So that's things
Speaker 1: that I have to work through. When you become a parent,
Speaker 1: you feel responsible for everything. I do have my days
Speaker 1: where I get very emotion chanel, and eventually I'll get
Speaker 1: myself the help that I so desperately need. You live
Speaker 1: life and you put feelings sometimes and thoughts on the
Speaker 1: back burner to make it through each day. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And while you say it's an excuse, I think it's
Speaker 1: also very real. If you're in a rural area, if
Speaker 1: you like in person support like it is harder, and
Speaker 1: it is hard hard than like then want to reach
Speaker 1: out to like an online version of that and to
Speaker 1: find that. And I love what you said about being
Speaker 1: patient with yourself and that's okay it is to be
Speaker 1: in the process of it. Please know, like if there's
Speaker 1: anything we can do as a family, Like I love
Speaker 1: getting to know you guys, and I love being a
Speaker 1: part of the family. I appreciate how Jen is willing
Speaker 1: to look at these gray areas of life and these
Speaker 1: questions we all carry in some version, and they don't
Speaker 1: often get talked about. So I'm grateful for Jen being
Speaker 1: open to sharing these thoughts. We've added for this episode
Speaker 1: a link to resources in the show description, so please
Speaker 1: check that out if you need them or would like
Speaker 1: to take a look. And please feel free to pause,
Speaker 1: do whatever you need to take care of yourself, and
Speaker 1: we'll be back after this break. Welcome back to When
Speaker 1: You're Invisible? When do you feel most seen? And when
Speaker 1: do you feel invisible? Oh? Boy, well seen by who?
Speaker 1: I don't think I feel most seen ever. To be honest,
Speaker 1: I don't really think so. Maybe I don't try to
Speaker 1: be seen either. Maybe I try to be in the
Speaker 1: background invisible is when, and I think it's a lot
Speaker 1: of people get caught up in their own self and
Speaker 1: you don't matter anymore. You are nothing, and that's how
Speaker 1: you get spoken to. Sometimes I don't need to be
Speaker 1: catered to, but I want to be spoken to with
Speaker 1: respect the same that I am giving to you. And
Speaker 1: there's so many people that don't understand that that it's
Speaker 1: important the way that we speak to each other. It
Speaker 1: also creates a culture creaty who you are when you
Speaker 1: take that second and realize that somebody else is having
Speaker 1: a really bad day too, And in the end, if
Speaker 1: you knew what was going on with them, you probably
Speaker 1: would change your attitude. But why do you need to know?
Speaker 1: Why does it have to be something bad? Yeah, something
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be wrong to treat a person. Well,
Speaker 1: why can't we just say I appreciate the things that
Speaker 1: you're doing for me, and this is what I need.
Speaker 1: I'm a secretary to school, so I get yelled at
Speaker 1: my parents all the time who act like their needs
Speaker 1: are more important than the person next to them. First
Speaker 1: of all, you're letting your children see you act this way,
Speaker 1: so that tells them that this is the way they
Speaker 1: should act. I just think if we take a breath
Speaker 1: and you say that person is just as worthy as
Speaker 1: I am. Who do you see as your community personally?
Speaker 1: First my family, that's my community, and then it is
Speaker 1: my neighbors. My community is Cedarville, the school that I
Speaker 1: work at, I am a big part of that. I
Speaker 1: try to attend things outside of school that are community based.
Speaker 1: I try to help the food banks in the town.
Speaker 1: So I always think about different groups that are looking
Speaker 1: for things and they need volunteers, and I try to
Speaker 1: put those people together. So to me, that my community.
Speaker 1: To me, it's like crazy. To Jan you were like,
Speaker 1: I don't have interesting stories like this all time. I'm like, wait,
Speaker 1: tell me more. Yeah, you don't think about that for yourself,
Speaker 1: I guess. And I'm very thankful that I've lived. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've definitely had some experiences in my life and some
Speaker 1: amazing ones too. Like we got into more emotional ones.
Speaker 1: What are some fun ones just to balance it out. Oh,
Speaker 1: when I was eighteen, we went on an amazing four
Speaker 1: week camping trip to Wyoming and back. It was amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And we had a van and a pop up camper
Speaker 1: from Jersey to Wyoming and camped every night. That must
Speaker 1: have been stunning. Maybe one day I'll get to do
Speaker 1: something like that myself. I never did that with my kids.
Speaker 1: I took them camping by myself a couple of times.
Speaker 1: I was proud and impressed myself. What's something that's exciting
Speaker 1: or sparking your fun or curiosity right now? It'll be
Speaker 1: simple for some people. I want to be a grandmother,
Speaker 1: a grammy to the dog, she's my grand baby, but
Speaker 1: I want to be a grandmother. Other than that, I
Speaker 1: still feel young minded. I don't feel fifty one, so
Speaker 1: I feel like I got lots to do still, I'm
Speaker 1: not done yet, But in most of all, I'm would
Speaker 1: be most excited to have grandchildren. Talking to Jen reminds
Speaker 1: me how there's so many different ways that people are perceived,
Speaker 1: and if you are not close to them physically, culturally,
Speaker 1: or familiarly, there's a lot that we don't get to
Speaker 1: learn about. I feel like Jen's interview truly surprised me.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of assumptions that I think I
Speaker 1: walked into the door with because of what I had
Speaker 1: heard through mainstream media, and in many ways I was
Speaker 1: also able to relate to her. One being like the
Speaker 1: first woman in my Latino family to day outside of
Speaker 1: my race, and so what it's like to navigate that
Speaker 1: with your family who had as their own history, their
Speaker 1: own bias, their own culture, and when you're kind of
Speaker 1: one of the first to change it. Thinking about all
Speaker 1: of what she's been through, one thing that really stayed
Speaker 1: with me is her perspective of not judging people and
Speaker 1: being kind and patient with people because the moment she
Speaker 1: said it, I heard it in my mom's voice, because
Speaker 1: my mom says that all the time too. Despite our
Speaker 1: differences and there's a lot of them, right, we also
Speaker 1: do share some really important things. So thank you for
Speaker 1: joining us on this journey. In this episode. Next week's episode,
Speaker 1: we get to take a look at another part of
Speaker 1: my family. My parents are going to close out this
Speaker 1: season of When You're Invisible, and we'd get to talk
Speaker 1: about their life as immigrants in the US and now
Speaker 1: dual citizens and what it's like to have ties to
Speaker 1: different countries and raised children in different cultures. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for listening to When You're Invisible. Don't forget
Speaker 1: to like, comment, and subscribe. You can find this episode
Speaker 1: and future ones on the I Heart Radio app Apple
Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm your host
Speaker 1: and creator Maria with executive producers Anna Stump, Nikki Etour
Speaker 1: and Bans producer Dylan Hoyer, with associate producer Claudia Martha
Speaker 1: Corena and post production producer Daisy James. Original theme music
Speaker 1: by Tony Bruno. When You're Invisible is an I Heart
Speaker 1: podcast Network production in partnership with my Cola Podcast Network