1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 2: Henry Wallace is a good example, because when you have 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 2: a serial killer, you've got multiple victims and you don't 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: want to blur them all together. So I would have 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: Henry talk about them and draw. And the other good 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: thing about a drawing is you can then use that 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: in a kind of third distant way to say, Gina, 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: what was going on over here? What is this all about? 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: And you can use it to get more of the detail, 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: so you're not just sitting there talking with them. 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 13 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on 16 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many great true crime stories, 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with 21 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked Presents 22 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, good 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: the stories. Anne Burgess is a legend in the history 25 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: of crime and forensics in America. She's the nurse who 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: helped shape the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. Now she's a 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: researcher and a professor. Doctor. Burgess and her co writer 28 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: Stephen Constantine wrote a book called A Killer by Design, Murderers, 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: Mind Hunters, and My Quest to Decipher the Criminal Mind. 30 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: And in that book they tried to answer the question 31 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: what drives someone to kill and how can we stop them? 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: So all of this really started with you in the 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies when you were an r inn at the time. 34 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: I really started out just wanting to be a psychotherapist 35 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 2: when I finished my doctorate, and then I was called 36 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: to see if I could teach a course over at 37 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: Boston College. So I said yes, and that's where I 38 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: met Lynda lattel Holmstrom, and in the process she wanted 39 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: to talk to me about some of the projects that 40 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: she was doing, and she also told me that you 41 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: better be doing research because that's what how you work 42 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: in academ where you have to keep publishing. And so 43 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: she's talking about rape victims. And as she explained that, 44 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: she knew that the women's movement was really pushing on 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 2: the issue of rape, and she had been going to 46 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: some of these what they call consciousness raising groups, and 47 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 2: I was really fascinated with it. She wanted to study this, 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: but was having trouble finding victims. Now that's a problem 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 2: that there still is a problem. Victims are very invisible. 50 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 2: They're very hard to find, and certainly back in those 51 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: days it was. But I figured that they were coming 52 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: into hospitals when they needed treatment. So I began saying, 53 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: let's see if we could find some that way. So 54 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: that's really how it started, is that I joined in 55 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: a research project with Linda Holmstrom. We did that for 56 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 2: a whole year and came up some major publications. And 57 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: it was the FBI that really found me from another 58 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: law enforcement officer when one of the agents was doing 59 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: what they call a road school out in the West Coast. 60 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: The women's movement had put enough pressure on Congress that 61 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 2: Congress was saying to headquarters to the Bureau that you 62 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: should be training your special agents who can then go 63 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: and train the law enforcement. So we're talking mid now 64 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: by the time I get to the FBI, it's now 65 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: going to be I think it's around in nineteen seventy eight. 66 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: Who was your first contact with the FBI? 67 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: My very first contact was Roy Hazelwood. Now, Roy was 68 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: the new agent that was given the task of having 69 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 2: to train in the area of victimology. So he brought 70 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: me into the FBI for training lecturing, and in that 71 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: process is where I met first Bob Wrestler, who was 72 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: really the protege, if you will, of the very kind 73 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: of informal profiling program that was going on, and he 74 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 2: then introduced me to John Douglas. Those are the two 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: agents that are characterized in Mindhunter. 76 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: Were they happy to have you? This is two men 77 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: in law enforcement? What was the relationship like from the beginning? 78 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that I was an equal in that 79 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: they needed the content. And what I've learned a lot 80 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 2: about from the behavioral unit down there is that they 81 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: welcome any new information that they felt was credible because 82 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: they didn't have it, and yet they were given the 83 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: task of training. So from that standpoint, I think they 84 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: appreciated my being in a consultant role that was my 85 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 2: initial role going in, of course, just to lecture Stephen. 86 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: You're her co writer. Do you want to jump in 87 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: on this? 88 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: I'd had real quick that that was sort of very 89 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 3: rare at the time, Like doctor Burgess was saying that 90 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 3: throughout the FBI as a whole, consultants and outsiders were 91 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 3: not welcome. We're not invited into the organization. So within 92 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 3: the BSU, for Robert Wrestler to initially ask for her 93 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: expertise on the project that him and John Douglas were 94 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 3: working on and to invite them in was an unprecedented step. 95 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 3: And they did really do that because they valued her 96 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 3: expertise in a subject that was incredibly important at the time, 97 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 3: and that there were very few other people who could 98 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 3: speak to that subject matter. 99 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: And obviously you were pulled into some big cases. Did 100 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: it take very long for that to happen? 101 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: Well, that's the research. What the lecturing turned into was 102 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: talking informally. They were all supposed to be doing some research, 103 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: and so when I talked to Wrestler and Douglas, they 104 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: had decided to interview the serial killers. They had already 105 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: been doing some of it, not that type, they had 106 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: been doing more of the wiki from and Charlie Manson. 107 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: So they had been doing those on their time off 108 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: on the weekends when they were out usually like out 109 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: in the West Coast. So when we decided to do that, 110 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: I said, do you have a list of these serial killers? 111 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: And they did, and I think it was a list 112 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: of I don't know eighty two or eighty five that 113 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 2: were there, and we started going through it for what 114 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: we felt would be the most interesting in terms of 115 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: having documents, of having some kind of records that could 116 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: back up when the agents would go in and interview them. 117 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: So it dwindled down to the thirty six. So we 118 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: talked in depth and the first book that we wrote 119 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 2: on the thirty six serial killers. 120 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: So you felt like you had gotten to know the 121 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: survivors sexual assault survivors and maybe families, but that you 122 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: hadn't quite known the killers yet. Is that right? 123 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: That's right? Well, the study that I first talked about 124 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: was with living victims, victims coming into Boston City Hospital. 125 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: Those are the ones that Linda and I talked extensively 126 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: with and followed I did the follow up to see 127 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: how their lives went after being raped. But of course 128 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: none of those at that time were any homicide victims. 129 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: So it wasn't until we got into the serial killer 130 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: study that I had access to the records and also 131 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: had access to some of the surviving victims of some 132 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: of the serial killers. 133 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: So, Stephen, what are the details of one really big 134 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: case that doctor Burgess took on. 135 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: I think one of the big cases we do talk 136 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,679 Speaker 3: about it in the book is a John Berry Simoni's case. 137 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 3: In the Simona's case, he wasn't necessarily a serial killer, 138 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 3: although that's a bit up for to be. He was 139 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 3: a rapist, a rapist who escalated the behaviors of his 140 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: crimes and became more and more violent as they progressed 141 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 3: and went along, and as he alluded, law enforcement across 142 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: multiple states, and doctor Burgers was brought into that one 143 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: to speak with some of the victims to help with 144 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 3: the profiling process, and that was really interesting case. 145 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 4: She was down in New Orleans helping with that and. 146 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: Doctor Bers, you have a really sort of interesting anecdote 147 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 3: about the call you got when you returned home, if 148 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: you might want to share that one. 149 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: Right, So, when I got home from the case, I 150 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 2: get a call from the unit chief at the time, 151 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: and it was so unusual for him to give me 152 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: a call, and I kind of was curious about He said, 153 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 2: how did the case go, and et cetera, et cetera, 154 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: And I said, it went fine. And later what I 155 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: found out is that they had gotten the DSU had 156 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 2: gotten a call saying there was a female down with 157 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: the group of agents that was impersonating a FBI agent 158 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: that was you. So they had to verify. Now that's 159 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: a very serious thing, you know. And I didn't realize 160 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: it until maybe a couple of weeks later. I was 161 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 2: down and we were able to get it straightened out. 162 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: But I thought, that's one of the funnier moments. 163 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: What is the biggest mistake they make in taking down 164 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: that information or how they treat the victim? Do you 165 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: think what would you tell people who are just starting out. 166 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: Well, one of the things we say is you have 167 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 2: to initially say when you're sitting there with the victim, 168 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: is that you really are sorry for what happened. You 169 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 2: have to connect with them, and one of the ways 170 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: is to say, I'm sorry that we have to go 171 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: through this. I can appreciate how hard this may be 172 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: for you, but I need the information to be able 173 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 2: to help in capturing the suspect. So you tell them 174 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: what your job is in a way that is, you 175 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 2: don't just start right out with, well, tell me what happened. 176 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: You know, you have to build the relationship in as 177 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: short but as complete a time as possible. And I 178 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 2: think that's where a lot of the new agents or 179 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: the new law enforcement would miss. They think that like 180 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: they go to a robbery and they say, well, tell 181 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: me what happened, and that's not as sensitive a experience 182 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 2: as any type of sexual context. 183 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 3: And that's a really important, I think element of the 184 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: early work that doctor Burgess did in the seventies when 185 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 3: she first arrived at the Academy as well, where she 186 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 3: spent a lot of time training law enforcement officers and 187 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 3: FBI agents how to interview and connect and talk with 188 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 3: victims of sexual assault. You know, the culture at the 189 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: time was one to dismissal lack of belief, and so 190 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: that kind of permeated into how law enforcement officers would 191 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 3: first reach out and talk to these victims, and doctor 192 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 3: Burge's work really completely changed that switch it up so 193 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 3: that they were weren't protocols put in place, and it 194 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 3: was a much more effective process. 195 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: I would just add that Rory Hazel and I wrote 196 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: a checklist so that the law enforcement could go in 197 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 2: and say, part of my job is to go through 198 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 2: a series of questions that have been written down so 199 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: the person knows that this is something that's routinely done. 200 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: It's like when you go in for any kind of 201 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: a health matter, they pull out a sheet of paper 202 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 2: and they'd check off. So that would help to kind 203 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: of put some objectivity to it. So we recommended that, 204 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 2: and of course it was used in the textbook. So 205 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 2: I would say that for some of the questions where 206 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: you had a really reticent, hesitant type of victim, which 207 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 2: you often could, they would feel like you are trying 208 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: to get the essence of the experience. 209 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: Okay, Steven, can we talk about another case. I'm interested 210 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: in learning a little bit more about the women who 211 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: survived these and how they contribute to the profiling. 212 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 3: I think one that was really interesting that we discussed 213 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 3: and that we talked about in the book is Opel 214 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: Horton and Missy Ackerman. And these are two young girls 215 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: I think there were six or seven, I believe at 216 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 3: the time, and these were two young girls that lived 217 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 3: in the Midwest, and they were going for a bike 218 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 3: ride and a car pulled up to them as they 219 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 3: were biking along, and a man said, you know, I'm 220 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: trying to get to so and so. Can you point 221 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,959 Speaker 3: me in the right direction? And they did. They told 222 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: him where to go. He said, I'm sorry, I can't 223 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 3: hear you, and so he backed up a little closer 224 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: to him, and then he jumped out of the car. 225 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 3: He grabbed one of the girls, Opele Horton, he put 226 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 3: her inside the car. She tried to get out, but 227 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: she noticed that he had taken off the door handles 228 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 3: from the inside so that she wouldn't be able to 229 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 3: so this was all very well planned out. She jumped 230 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 3: out of the window and was able to escape that 231 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 3: way while the perpetrator was grabbing her friend, Missy Ackerman 232 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 3: and putting her in the car opel got away. Missy 233 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 3: Ackerman was driven away and the car opel could watch 234 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: through She was hiding behind this big tire from a 235 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 3: John Deere station and watched as her friend was beating 236 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 3: on the back of the window with her little fists, 237 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 3: screaming for help as she was getting driven down the road. 238 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 3: And doctor Burgess was brought into that case to interview 239 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 3: the surviving girl. Nobody knew how to talk to her. 240 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 3: She was dismissed for a long time because she was 241 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 3: just a child, so people didn't think she had anything 242 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 3: valuable to say. And doctor Burgers was flown in and 243 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 3: she used this really novel drawing technique to help this 244 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: little girl express all these things that were in her 245 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 3: head but that were too terrible to actually speak or 246 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 3: to discuss or to put words to. And I'll let 247 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 3: doctor Burgess tell that story a little bit. From the 248 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 3: pictures that the little girl drew, a police artist was 249 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 3: able to sketch the perpetrator, and that was an important 250 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 3: tool in helping to put an end to this case. 251 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: Tell me your impressions of all of this, doctor Burgess. 252 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was really rather annoyed that they waited so 253 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: long to call me, because over a week had passed 254 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: before anybody had thought to even talk with Hopel. So 255 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: when I went out, I used drawings anyway as a 256 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: technique for communication, and that's always an easy way to 257 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 2: talk with young children. And so the drawings that she 258 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 2: gave were very detailed in her mind as well as 259 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: being put on paper, and you can really as you 260 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: look at this series, I think they are about seven 261 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: or eight drawnks. You can actually see her deteriorating in 262 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: her thinking because you get closer and closer to the 263 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: time when the killer pulls little Melissa into the car, 264 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: and you know that this is what's really upsetting Hopeful. 265 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 2: But she gave information that was helpful, not only in 266 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: the drawing she described. She said, you know, he had 267 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: these things sticking out of his face, and those, of 268 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: course were whiskers, but she didn't know the worst whisker, 269 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 2: but she said she had these things sticking out of 270 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: his face. Now, this was on a Sunday, and so 271 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 2: we figured maybe something has happened over the weekend that 272 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: he was on what we would call kind of a spree. 273 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: And it turned out that he was that he had 274 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: done another rape, he had done some other kinds of 275 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: primes that weekend, and this is kind of a culmination 276 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: of it. But Opal gave us very good information. We 277 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: always put up the actual picture when they finally got 278 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: the name was Brian Dugan, but the artist's sketch is 279 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 2: very very revealing, it very very accurate. So I think 280 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: that was important for the agents to realize that little 281 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: children as young as seven could give you information from 282 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: their memory. She had a good description of the car 283 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: she had where things were, that it was old, she's 284 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: pretty close on the type. She didn't say the exact type, 285 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: but she said it was the she gave the right color, 286 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: and she gave other details that were really amazing for 287 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: the law enforcement to realize how much you could get 288 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: from a child. And then when I think the other 289 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: important thing is when little Melissa's body was found, I 290 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: had worked with one of the female agents. They had 291 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: sent one of the female FBI agents in and of 292 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: course I had gone back home, and so that was 293 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 2: up to that agent to go and meet with Opal 294 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: and to tell her about her little friends. And then 295 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: the little girl. After the agent tells her that they 296 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: had found Melissa, she said, I want to do some drawings, 297 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: and she does some drawings that she wanted Melissa's family 298 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 2: to have as well as she kept some. So it 299 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: was carried over and became a very I think as 300 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: much as possibly comforting way to talk about her. And 301 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: she said how much she missed her friends and how. 302 00:15:53,560 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 5: Everybody missed Melissa so very sad. 303 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 3: One other thing to remember is that doctor Birch's initial 304 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 3: work with the Behavioral Science Unit of the FBI was 305 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 3: sort of twofold. There was a part of looking at 306 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: serial killers, the thirty six killers that their original thirty 307 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 3: six killer serial killers study and looking for patterns and 308 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: behaviors that were common amongst them, these trends that they 309 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 3: could say, Ah, this is something that serial killers do, 310 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 3: so we can use this information as data going forward 311 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 3: when we're looking for serial killers that are on the loose. 312 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: So there was that side looking at interviews and sort 313 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 3: of all of this big data and boiling it down 314 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: into something that would be usable going forward, and that 315 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 3: going forward process ended up being the profiling process. So 316 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: that drawing technique that doctor Birch was just describing, she 317 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 3: actually used that with some serial killers as well, to 318 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 3: have them draw out what their crimes were like their 319 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: own heads. They would often draw themselves from above, as 320 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 3: if they were outside of their body, above their head 321 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 3: witnessing these crimes happen, as if they weren't accountable for disconnecting. 322 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 323 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely, So that technique also applied to the other side, 324 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 3: to the offender's side, to learn more about how their 325 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 3: brains worked, and again to apply it further to the 326 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 3: profiling process. 327 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: Will you tell me about one of those experiences with 328 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: the serial killer who was making drawings that are sort 329 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: of disconnected from his crime. 330 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, Henry Wallace is a good example, and I 331 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: think in the book we do have a couple of 332 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 2: his drawings. And why that was so important is because 333 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: when you have a serial killer, you've got multiple victims 334 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: and you don't want to blur them all together. So 335 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: I would have Henry talk about them and draw. And 336 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: the other good thing about a drawing is you can 337 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 2: then use that in a kind of third distant way 338 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: to say, Gina, what was going on over here? What 339 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 2: is this all about? And you can use it to 340 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: get more of the detail, so you're not just sitting 341 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,959 Speaker 2: there talking with them. And I found that that is 342 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 2: what worked. It would give us more information about it, 343 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: and that's what Henry did. He had a total I 344 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 2: think of eleven victims. We only were working with the 345 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: North Carolina ones, and I think two were in South Carolina. 346 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: So of the nine, it was interesting to see how 347 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 2: he would describe how he would meet the victim, then 348 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: what he would do, because he did a sequence and 349 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: took them to different parts of the house of the apartment. 350 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: The other thing I would do is then match it 351 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: with the actual crime scene and see how much looked 352 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: like what happened. He actually confessed to two murders that 353 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 2: police didn't know about. He had set a fire on 354 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: the stove and so the apartment went up in flames, 355 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: and when the firefighters got there, they just saw this 356 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: woman then thought it was an arson kind of thing 357 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: and never saw it as a murder. And there was 358 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 2: one other case where they didn't know that it was Henry. 359 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 2: So it also was an opportunity to get more of 360 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 2: the victimology out. 361 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: So with Henry, why Wallace he was willing to do 362 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: all of this. Did he enjoy talking to you and 363 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: explaining the drawings that he was doing for you? 364 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: Well, Henry Wallace was kind of a complex person where 365 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: he really did feel after the fact that he and 366 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 2: he apologized in court to all the family members that 367 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: were there, saying that there was no reason that any 368 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 2: of the victims had anything to do with their own victimization, 369 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: that it was all his fault. So I thought that 370 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: was interesting. 371 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: So, aside from what you contributed to the sentencing, what 372 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: did you learn from him specifically just about his mindset 373 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: or what is applicable to other serial killers based on 374 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: his drawings and the way he viewed himself as a killer. 375 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: Well, Henry Wallace was able to as other of the 376 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 2: persons that were interviewed, was able to go back to 377 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: their childhood. We really found that there was something that 378 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 2: happened in their child development that kind of set into 379 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: motion the thought process. And what Henry Wallace remembered was 380 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 2: witnessing as a young I think it was only like 381 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: eight or nine, a gang rape of a young girl 382 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 2: in the neighborhood and then within a few days the 383 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: police came to the boys that they arrested, and he 384 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: found that very exciting too. So in a scenario like 385 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: that where probably other boys in the neighborhood had witnessed that, 386 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: they didn't react that way. But to Henry that was 387 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: something that he thought about over and over and obviously 388 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 2: then became part of his criminal behavior. 389 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: Something else had to have been going on with him, right, because, 390 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: as you said, other people had either heard about it 391 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: or seen it, and they didn't go on to be 392 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: serial killers. 393 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: An external situation can affect a group in very different ways. 394 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 2: So for Henry, this is the one that he kept 395 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: talking about. Now, we didn't initially say, well, that's what 396 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: it was. No, there are other factors of how he's 397 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: brought up, all female atmosphere, very strict and domineering mother. 398 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 2: There are other kinds of things, of course, the absent father, 399 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 2: never knowing who his father was was, which we found 400 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 2: in other backgrounds of serial killers. 401 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: That's also sort of the classic question, right is that 402 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 3: nature is it nurture? You know, what causes these serial 403 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: killers to exist as the way they are? 404 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 4: And doctor Burgess has always said that it's both. 405 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 3: And in the case of multiple people seeing the same 406 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 3: type of crime, but only Wallace reacting and living out 407 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 3: his life in a certain way, you know, that has 408 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 3: to do with this very sort of patterned way of 409 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 3: thinking he witnesses. This moment made an impression on him. 410 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 3: It became sort of the food of his fantasies. He 411 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 3: would play it over and over in his head, getting 412 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 3: thrills from it, until he sort of took it on 413 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 3: as something that he wanted to do. And as he's 414 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 3: repeating these fantasies in his head, they're becoming bigger and 415 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 3: bigger and more and more authentic to him, until the 416 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: point that fantasy becomes more authentic than reality itself, and 417 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 3: so it spills out and it becomes his reality, becomes 418 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: his lived experience. 419 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: When you're describing Henry Wallace, it made me think of 420 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: Edmund Kemper and his obvious disdain for his mother. Did 421 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: you interview him also or did he do drawings for 422 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: you also? 423 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 2: Oh, we had quite a bit of documentation on Edmund, 424 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 2: because he again was a big talker and he was 425 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 2: very articulate, very bright, and the agents i think interviewed 426 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: him as much as four or five times. So we 427 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 2: had the interviews there and could kind of tell Bob 428 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 2: Russell was particularly interested in him the kinds of questions 429 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: to ask. But he also remembered and he of course 430 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 2: is still alive as as Henry, but he would keep 431 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: going back. It was a very different kind of a 432 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 2: thing that he experienced, and that was when he told it. 433 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 2: He had to live in the basement of the house 434 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 2: while his sisters were up two floors up, and whatever 435 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 2: that meant, and maybe things had happened that he was 436 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,959 Speaker 2: never able to tell. You have to realize that some 437 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 2: of these things, because they're sexual, are going to be 438 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,719 Speaker 2: very secret, and it is hard to access any of that, 439 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 2: and so sometimes you have to wonder unless you get 440 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 2: a chance to really talk with them more and more 441 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: of what it was that actually set it into motion. 442 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 2: What Wrestler did in that interview, though, with Henry Wallace 443 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: was really rather unique. He brought in a whole about 444 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 2: twelve detective magazines, and I don't know if you've ever 445 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 2: looked at the covers of detective magazines, but they they 446 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: turned out to be Henry's pornography because they have women 447 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: bound up, they have them in skimpy clothes, they have 448 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: like a knife around their throats and things like that. 449 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 2: And he would get very excited at that. And that 450 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: was as a kid that he would look at these, 451 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: And of course this was now when he's thirty five 452 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: and we're doing the interview in the jail. It was 453 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 2: really interesting to see his reaction. 454 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: All of this data, all of these interviews, all of 455 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: these impressions that you've gathered, add up to what tangible 456 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: information that now law enforcement, the FBI whoever, can then use. 457 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: Is it to stop serial killers, is it to track 458 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: them or criminals in general? Is it as an educational 459 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: tool to hopefully intervene at a young age or is 460 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: it all of the above. 461 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 2: It's all of the above, and the course, the one 462 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: that I'm most interested in is to reduce victimization. So 463 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 2: what can we do from a preventive standpoint to early 464 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 2: on look at the red flags? What should people be 465 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: worried about if they've got a teenager one of our cases, 466 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: the mother really thought something was wrong with her child, 467 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 2: found him tying himself up and things like that, takes 468 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: them to a psychiatrist or psychologist, a mental health person 469 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: who says to the mother, oh, he'll grow out of it. Well, 470 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: he didn't grow out of it. And if you look 471 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: at some of these cases that we've had most recently, 472 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 2: there were very clear warning signs, and yet nobody picks 473 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 2: it up and is able to do anything. In the 474 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: school system, family work. I think there was that case 475 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: out in the Midwest of the young boy, a fifteen 476 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 2: year old that then goes in and takes a gun 477 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 2: in he's told he can go back to school. Those 478 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: are red flags that should have been he was already 479 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: saying I can't get it out of my head. That's clue. 480 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: They keep it in their heads and obsess over it, 481 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 2: and they don't know how to get rid of it 482 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: from their heads, so they take it out on somebody. 483 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: That was a drawing that came out into drawing that 484 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: the teacher saw, So that is again your technique. 485 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: That's right. 486 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 3: I think the Mani Ristle case might be a really 487 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 3: good example of that too. Moni Wristle was kind of 488 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,239 Speaker 3: a classic example of a serial killer where he had 489 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: a lot of the same sort of patterns and behavioral 490 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 3: elements that a lot of other serial killers do, in 491 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: which his parents got divorced when he was very young. 492 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 3: I think he had a stepfather that was from the 493 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 3: military and used to treat him violently in terms of punishment. 494 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 3: His mom would just disappear for long periods of time 495 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 3: and not tell Monty or his siblings where she was going, 496 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 3: and then would just randomly show up again. He moved 497 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 3: around a lot. I think he committed some violent acts 498 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 3: to animals and children when he was very young. He 499 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 3: progressed to armed robbery and rape, and he was caught 500 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 3: pretty quickly for that and ended up going to was 501 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: the under probation doctor burgeon. 502 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 4: Maybe you can tell that part of the story. 503 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's so interesting here is he's very young, He's 504 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: only fourteen. I think at the time when he's picked up, 505 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 2: as Stephen just said, the judge sends him to a 506 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 2: probation place down in Florida, and he's out of Virginia, 507 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 2: so he's transferred down there. Then he even keeps committing 508 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: some of these offenses when he goes out on weekends 509 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: and so forth. And then when he comes back to Virginia, 510 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 2: he's put on probation with the psychiatrist, and it's during 511 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 2: that time that he commits five murders while he's under 512 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: suppose we'd be seeing monthly or weekly the psychiatrist, and 513 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: we talked with the psychiatrist because he was just horrified 514 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: that he hadn't picked this up. And so the message 515 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: from there is what can we tell a mental health 516 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: that are working with young people so that you can 517 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 2: find out if they're committing anything further while they're on probation. 518 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 2: So that was it's a big learning curve for us 519 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 2: on that case. 520 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: At what point if you have a young child who 521 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: is expressing some disturbing behavior with animals or whatever, how 522 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: as a parent do you know what a red flag 523 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: is and how to intervene for something that hasn't happened. 524 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 2: Yet you need to get them to an expert that 525 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: understands that kind of behavior and go over with them. 526 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 2: That's where you put them into drawings are good what 527 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: we call expressive therapy to get an information because they 528 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: may not tell you right away, but you've got to 529 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 2: have them under somebody's supervision to monitor what they're thinking 530 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: and what they're doing. That's what we suggest. It's not 531 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 2: the parent that well, a parent should get concerned over something. 532 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 2: Parents know that their children, I would think, as well 533 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 2: as anybody. And if you ask any parent after some 534 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 2: child has committed a horrendous act dollars have done that, 535 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 2: they're going to say that they felt something was up 536 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: and other people in the family may say they really worried. 537 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 2: Now a lot of times nothing's going to happen, but 538 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: for the time said something does. You really want to 539 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: be sure that the person has had a chance to 540 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: be seen for mental health. But somebody that knows trauma 541 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: and knows what is really serious acting out behavior. 542 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the serial killer who can manipulate really, 543 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: really well, the ones who have all the charm and 544 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: the charisma that draw people in, like a Ted Bundy. 545 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 2: Well, those that are successful, if you will, and enticing 546 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: a victim, getting luring a victim in like Ted Bundy 547 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 2: he does. He was very social, he's very good looking. 548 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: And I'm just trying to think of which of our 549 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: cases we had like that. Ted Bundy was not one 550 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: in our serial killer study, but Steven, can you think 551 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 2: of one. 552 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 3: I think Wallace is a really good example of that. 553 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 3: Wallace grew up as very well liked. He dated a lot, 554 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 3: he had a lot of girlfriends, He never had any 555 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 3: troubles with that. He had some successful careers at different 556 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 3: points in his life, so he had a lot of 557 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: that package of being a normal person that people thought 558 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 3: was charming and people wanted to be around, and people 559 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 3: sort of gravitated to Wallace. And one of the other 560 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 3: interesting things about that was he was one of the 561 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 3: few serial killer cases that doctor Bergerson the team worked 562 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 3: on in which the victims were all known to him. 563 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 3: It was his friends, his girlfriends, friends, and other people 564 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 3: that were within his social circle. 565 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 4: But yeah, everybody was surprised. 566 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 3: They were shocked that Wallace turned out to be who 567 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 3: he was, except for his girlfriend. She kind of had 568 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 3: a clue about it. But because he was so well 569 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 3: liked was sort of out of the blue. 570 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: You always want to know how the offender accesses his victim, 571 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 2: how does it begin. Some of them are just what 572 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: we call blitz out of the blue, so there's no 573 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 2: way that there's any interaction, But you're asking about those 574 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: that really can them. We call it a confidence style 575 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 2: and then they act and that's as much part of 576 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 2: the war, if you will, and part of the crime 577 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 2: that they enjoy while they're accessing the victim. That's really 578 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: very frightening for victims. And I'm talking about a lot 579 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: of rape victims that can be the way it happens. 580 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: There must be just a lot of nuance between the 581 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: motives of a male killer versus a female killer. Different motives. 582 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, many of women use a different weapon. They 583 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: use poison, so that we've certainly seen some cases where 584 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: poison is used. In fact, one of the FBI agents, 585 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: the wife tried to kill him. It's in the mind 586 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: Hunter book and he talks about it rather frequently. It's 587 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 2: kind of interesting, but he almost was murdered. She hired 588 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 2: a contract on his life. Well, I've done cases where 589 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 2: several young women in their teens. When I say young 590 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 2: in their teens, and the motive is very different. It's 591 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: not a sexual motives. It's going to be different motives. 592 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: So we've talked a little bit about the difficulty of 593 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: accessing emotionally and for details women who are survivors of 594 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: sexual assault or crimes. I imagine there's a total different 595 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 1: level of difficulty accessing the motives and the emotions and 596 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: backgrounds of serial killers. 597 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: Oh, it is, and that's why we were so interested 598 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 2: in trying to do it. And one of the reasons 599 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 2: that Bob Wrestler and I wanted to interview Henry Wallace 600 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 2: because he was very different. He was black and knew 601 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: all of his victims. We didn't have anyone in the 602 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: thirty six that we studied, and the black serial killers 603 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 2: were a different group. Now at the time, there was 604 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 2: Carlton Gary was down in Louisiana, and there were other cases, 605 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: but they just didn't get into the mainstream. You can 606 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 2: say there are all kinds of reasons why, But we 607 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 2: wanted to look at a variety of motives and a 608 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: variety of scenarios where crimes had been committed to really 609 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: try to at least start a dialogue with other people. 610 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: Because backgrounds how do you know that they are telling 611 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: the truth? That's always one of the big questions we 612 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: felt we answered that because we had so many documents. 613 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: The FBI had access to a lot of documents, earlier 614 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 2: histories of these men growing up there, if they had 615 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 2: had any psychiatric if they had any criminal records, what 616 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: their school records were, any of those kinds of things. 617 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: So that that's how we felt that we answered that 618 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: question of how do you know that they're telling the truth? 619 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 3: I would add to that as to your question, that 620 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 3: very difficult to sort of get into the mindset of. 621 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 4: A serial killer. 622 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 3: But a lot of times when doctor Bergson the agents 623 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 3: would start speaking to these serial killers, the incarcerated ones, 624 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 3: they would say, yeah, I'm glad you're here to talk 625 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 3: to me, because I don't know why I did my crimes. 626 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 3: I would like to understand them myself, and so a 627 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: lot of them were very willing to talk. The thing 628 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 3: that got a little tricky is they also had this 629 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 3: habit of always wanting to outsmart authorities, So they would 630 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 3: test the agents a lot of times too with false information. 631 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: So if the agents didn't really sort of ironclad know 632 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 3: their cases, they could start getting deceived and lied to, 633 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 3: and the incarcerated killers would get a thrill out of that, 634 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,959 Speaker 3: so they had to really be on top of everything 635 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 3: to make sure they were getting incredibly accurate information. But 636 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 3: even someone like Kepper, one of the most famous serial 637 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 3: killers out there, he wanted to talk about his content 638 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 3: to set a degree that he agreed to do a 639 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 3: satellite interview with the FBI Academy to talk to wrestler 640 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 3: and to all these agents and training to share his story, 641 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 3: just to have that platform, which sort of goes back 642 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 3: to this idea of like Hubris and taking pride in 643 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 3: their acts and sort of interestingly along those lines. 644 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 4: So we talked about Simonis. 645 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 3: When Simonas was in jail, he learned that another innate 646 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 3: had confessed to committing one of the crimes that Simonas. 647 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 4: Had and that really upset Simon. 648 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 3: We got all angry about it and said, why would 649 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 3: that guy do that? 650 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 4: That's my crime. I did that. 651 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 3: So there were all sorts of different elements that kind 652 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 3: of came out there about how every serial killer just 653 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 3: really wanted to be known and to take pride in 654 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 3: their cases. 655 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: Very strange, Doctor Burgess, Can you think of someone who 656 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: you've interviewed who at the end of their story you 657 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: just thought, gosh, just one wrong turn. If there had 658 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: just been one different turn, this person would have been different. 659 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: Maybe it wasn't a bad childhood, It was just a 660 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: wrong decision and something got flipped and this was a 661 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: wasted life. 662 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. I think that one of the 663 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 2: problems that they got into is once they started killing, 664 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 2: that is such a profound experience that he couldn't stop. 665 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: And I think we've said that before, is they couldn't 666 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: stop themselves. So could they have avoided that first one? 667 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: Would be the question, and I would say they probably 668 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 2: all could have, but clearly they didn't. So what is 669 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 2: it that helps someone stop? They even would write that, 670 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 2: remember that from the nineteen forties, that was one of 671 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 2: the first cases that Bob restaked and on the mirror 672 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 2: in red lipstick, the killer had stopped me. I can't 673 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 2: stop myself. So what it ever is that makes that 674 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 2: first turn? Like you say, and that's a good question 675 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 2: to have asked all of them. We are in the 676 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: process of trying to look at a study that would 677 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 2: ask what went wrong, what could have actually what could 678 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 2: have stopped you earlier? And I know that Henry Wallace 679 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 2: said he should have been stopped earlier. A lot of 680 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: the the killers actually gave experiences where they could have 681 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,280 Speaker 2: been stopped. Now this is after they've already done something, 682 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 2: but they never just start killing. There always is some 683 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 2: prelude with some other crimes. So from an assessment's standpoint, 684 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 2: court would be a place to start with really looking 685 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 2: at the nature of the offense that someone was standing 686 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: before a judge. For the problem is so many of 687 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 2: the defense players want to reduce the charges to get 688 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 2: them lighter sentences in general, that you never necessarily know 689 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 2: what that first crime is. A rape could be reduced 690 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 2: to a sexual assault, which is certainly not the level 691 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 2: of a rape. So you'd have to somehow get somebody 692 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 2: that looked at the full incident and made a decision 693 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 2: to help. 694 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 4: But even a lot of. 695 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 3: The killers would tell you, and they did tell doctor 696 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 3: Burs you know, they couldn't stop. They needed to be caught. 697 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 3: There was no way of stopping. And when they're in 698 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 3: prison and opportunities for parole come up, they just say, nope, 699 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 3: you know you don't want to do this. 700 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 4: This isn't going to work out for anybody. 701 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 3: So most of them will, like doctor Bird said, there's 702 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 3: this progression where there's these violent acts in their childhood 703 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,879 Speaker 3: that oftentimes would turn into sexual crimes, then would turn 704 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 3: into serial killer crimes. The only sort of exception I 705 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 3: can think of is the Bernadette Protty case, where it 706 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 3: was this teenage girl who was trying to sort of 707 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 3: elevate her social circle, who was sort of the poor 708 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 3: girl in this community that was a fairly wealthy community, 709 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 3: and she was just really desperate to sort of make 710 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 3: friends and to be accepted, and. 711 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: She murdered teenager Kirsten Marina Costas in nineteen eighty four. 712 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 3: The attack was very deliberate and set up, but maybe 713 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 3: it wasn't intended to be an actual murder, more of 714 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 3: a scare technique. And then she's moved on with her 715 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 3: life and hasn't committed any crimes since. So that might 716 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 3: be the one exception, but I think that one makes 717 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 3: the rule pretty much. 718 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: What do you think is the one thing that we 719 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: can do as a society to help mitigate the violence. 720 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: Is it intervention when kids are young, is it reduction 721 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: in domestic violence? Is it mental health education? 722 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 2: Well, I think that domestic violence is very important because 723 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 2: many of these cases, things start in the family early 724 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 2: and if the parents aren't on top of this kind 725 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 2: of watching their kids. A lot of these parents are not. 726 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 2: They can be. While you heard from our studies the 727 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 2: absent father, it's very hard for these men that don't 728 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 2: have somebody in authority that's kind of setting the rules 729 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 2: and disciplining them. That's why they I think, as Stephen 730 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 2: has said, that they look for the police as authority figures, 731 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 2: so they sometimes their crimes are more in the service 732 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 2: of putting it over on the police, and that is 733 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 2: for the victim becomes the target. So I think that 734 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: it's got to start early. It's got to start with 735 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 2: understanding how these matters occur. The other thing that I 736 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: don't think we found in our study, but sometimes it's used, 737 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 2: is how much do alcohol and drugs play a factor. 738 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 2: Henry Wallace who was taking crack cocaine every day and 739 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 2: killing almost every day, but by the time you heard 740 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 2: his confession, you'd never be able to get a jury 741 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,439 Speaker 2: to convince themselves that he had any kind of mental problem. 742 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's really interesting that they build up enough 743 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 2: of their immunity that the drug dealer his drug dealer 744 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 2: should have known that this is going on exactly his 745 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 2: girlfriend of Sadie that finally realized Henry was killing all 746 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 2: of their friends. So it's interesting the dynamics, if you will, 747 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 2: of what went on in that situation. But start young. 748 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 2: We know that this starts young. Don't forget. These are 749 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: primarily going to be strangulation type of killing, So that's 750 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 2: being close and personal. There's a contact with the victim, 751 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 2: and that's the way most of your domestic violence is. 752 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 2: And I don't think we have a good handle on 753 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 2: how to handle those types of cases. Certainly, we're looking 754 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,280 Speaker 2: at the data set now just of strangulation, have over 755 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,479 Speaker 2: four hundred cases of female strangulation murder cases and trying 756 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 2: to see whether it makes a difference if it's manual 757 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 2: or legot. Can you believe that's never been really looked 758 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 2: at before, So there's a lot that hasn't been looked 759 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 2: at that we kind of answer your question. I think 760 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 2: the more information that we can get that people can 761 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,240 Speaker 2: take a look at, and the side if it's useful, 762 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 2: is what's key. 763 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 3: So I think in the context of prevention, I think 764 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 3: one of the stories that you share that's really helpful 765 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 3: for people, is the one about Ristle and the brother 766 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 3: with cancer if you want to share that one. 767 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 6: Yeah. 768 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 2: You always want to ask is there any victims that 769 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 2: you didn't kill? And Russell said yes, it was his 770 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 2: fourth one and she had talked to him. He was 771 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 2: good at kill her, but she had a father that 772 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 2: was dying of cancer, and he had a brother that 773 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 2: had cancer, and he just said she had enough problems 774 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: on her hand, so he just let her go. Well, yeah, 775 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 2: she never reported it, and I bet that there are 776 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 2: other cases that that happened to him. I'm not sure 777 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 2: we asked Henry that because he had admitted to a 778 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 2: lot of rapes. So all of these things, in the 779 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 2: way that people can take histories and learn from them, 780 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 2: I think gives us more and more. Just add to 781 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 2: the scenario and try to get some of these young cases. 782 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 2: You've got to look at some of these teenagers and 783 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 2: what is motivating their behavior. 784 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: What do you envision your legacy, what you're passing forward 785 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: to other people who are profiling or who are interviewing 786 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: survivors and victims. 787 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 2: What I hope is the impact of that this is 788 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 2: a really traumatic event. When you're talking about unwanted any 789 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 2: type of unwanted sexual contact. But the other thing is 790 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 2: to do a really good interview with the victim, because 791 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 2: that material and that interview can give information to law enforcement, 792 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 2: and we should be sharing more and more. A lot 793 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 2: of times that won't happen, depends on jurisdictions and things 794 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: like that, but the victim is really the one that 795 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 2: can tell you the information about how that crime was committed, 796 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 2: when it's rape or sexual assault or attempt and murder, 797 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 2: and we should be learning from that. I don't think 798 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 2: we do that enough. 799 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked, words Diane Fanning on 800 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: her time with a serial killer. 801 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 6: When I asked him what he used all sorts of 802 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 6: methods to kill people, and I said, which do you prefer, 803 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 6: And he said, I'd like manual strangulation so it can 804 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 6: hold their throat in my hands and watch the light 805 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,280 Speaker 6: fade from their eyes. 806 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for 807 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked 808 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold War Wicked. 809 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer 810 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 811 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 812 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: right tenfold war Media production. The producer is Alexis Imirosi, 813 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: Our mixer is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. 814 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: Curtis heath Is. Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork. 815 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: Il Sabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, 816 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram 817 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,560 Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at 818 00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: tenfold more. And if you know of a historical crime 819 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in 820 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: your family, email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. 821 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for 822 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 1: Wicked Words