1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Let us pray. In the beginning, God created the heaven 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: and the earth Genesis one one. Lord, you are an 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: exquisite artist and master craftsman. You spoke this world into 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: existence by the power of your words. You separated the 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: heavens and the earth and carved out the mountains and 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: the seas. You designed a magnificent world for me. There 7 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: are so many places to explore that revealed the splendor 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: of your glory. Thank you for giving me life so 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: I can enjoy the wonder of your creation. I marvel 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: at the intricacy of your design and realize nothing is 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: impossible for you. My problems are reduced to nothing in 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: comparison to the majesty of your creation. I want to 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: dance on the moonbeams and hug you. I love you, Lord, Amen. 14 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to today's Daily Prayer. For more 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: inspiration and an incredible message from our feature pastor, stay 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: tuned to pray dot COM's Sunday service. 17 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: Hello everyone, Welcome to the Creation Podcast, the show where 18 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: we discuss the science that confirms scripture. I have with 19 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: me today I see ours President doctor Randy Galusa. Thank 20 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: you so much for being here. 21 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 3: Doctor g you very much. 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: We always love having you on the show. Thank you 23 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: for stepping away from all your work to come sit 24 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: down and have a conversation with me. 25 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: Yep, I am, I'm really looking forward to it. 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: Well, I know that today's we're going to talk about 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 2: everybody's favorite topic. That's kind of a joke. It's actually 28 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: a pretty dark topic, but it's important. It's something that 29 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: we need to discuss, and that is eugenic. So, for 30 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: my limited knowledge of the grand scheme of science, I 31 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 2: know that eugenics was kind of a big deal in 32 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,679 Speaker 2: the last century or so. I know that it was 33 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: a big deal in the West. I know that I've 34 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: heard things about it in like World War Two and 35 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: around those times. Also, can you explain to me what 36 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: eugenics is? 37 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: Well, first, you're really blessed in a way to actually 38 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 3: know something about it at this day and age. When 39 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: I was your age and through high school and college, 40 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: nobody ever talked about eugenics. It wasn't in American history classes, 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 3: it wasn't in my high school classes, and nobody even 42 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 3: discussed it was like a topic that had been completely 43 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 3: buried or almost expunged from US history. And just recently 44 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 3: with a lot of the honesty about slavery in the 45 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: United States, and are kind of our shameful past in 46 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 3: relationship to that that people have brought up our shameful 47 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 3: past in relationship to eugenics, so that you actually know 48 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 3: what the topic is when I hadn't even heard about 49 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: it really until just about a decade ago when I 50 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 3: was on staff with ICR and started actually studying what 51 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 3: it was and how it came about. And as you mentioned, 52 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: it took off in Western civilization, particularly led surprisingly not 53 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 3: by Germany, but by Great Britain and the United States. 54 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: In fact, it was really the United States which was 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 3: the leading proponent of eugenics at the time. And so 56 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: people are probably wondering, well, what in the world is eugenics. Well, 57 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: it was a major movement that started in Great Britain 58 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: out of evolutionary thinking by a cousin of Charles Darwin's 59 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: whose name was Francis, and it was the quest to 60 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 3: improve humanity, as the name implies you, meaning good genics, 61 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: meaning genes or good genes. It was trying to get 62 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 3: good genes into humanity by selectively breeding the best of 63 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 3: human stock and eliminating inferior people through abortion. Through euthanasia 64 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 3: for the older ones and through selective sterilization of people 65 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 3: that were deemed less fit than others. 66 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 2: Okay, so that's really horrible, which it makes sense that 67 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: we would kind of try to want to hide that 68 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: from our history, kind of unfortunately that we participated in 69 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 2: as a country, and Great Britain participated in as a country. 70 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 2: But I gather that it didn't just it didn't just 71 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: come out of nowhere. It's not like all of a sudden, 72 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: we're like, well, this is exactly how it's going to be. 73 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: So where did this idea come from? Where did the 74 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: roots of the eugenics movement begin? 75 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: You're right, it didn't just pop up overnight. It was 76 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 3: a It was born in many ways from Darwinian thinking 77 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: of Darwin's view of the world, and Darwin ushered in 78 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 3: a worldview, and that worldview was called selectionism. And if 79 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 3: you read actually the last two pages in Darwin's most 80 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 3: influential work, which was on the Origin of Species, he 81 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: lays out his worldview. In fact, he says he says 82 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 3: that there's a grandeur to this view in life. And 83 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: the grandeur of this view of life was that through 84 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 3: the struggle to survive through extinction of many inferior types 85 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 3: of creatures over very long periods of time that led 86 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 3: to the diversity of life on Earth culminating in humanity 87 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 3: as he saw it, over that time. So through the 88 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: struggle to survive and death and extinction, you end up 89 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 3: with an upward trajectory to all of life on Earth 90 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 3: and humanity, which was not a direct creation by God obviously, 91 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 3: but a result of a long evolutionary process. And that worldview, 92 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 3: which he says is very grand, is called selectionism because 93 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 3: Darwin invented the term and really the entire concept of 94 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 3: natural selection. 95 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: And so that's a very death driven process. 96 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: Yees correct, Oh correct, it's totally death driven process. Nobody 97 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 3: can separate death from natural selection because Darwin based integrated. Actually, 98 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 3: he integrated the whole idea of the struggle to survive 99 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 3: from a British philosopher named Malthus, who believed that in 100 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 3: any generation there would be more people born than resources 101 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 3: available for them, and therefore they had to struggle for 102 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 3: those resources, and the weak ones would die out and 103 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: would be eliminated, leaving only the best. And Darwin incorporated 104 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 3: this idea into his concept of natural selection and That's 105 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 3: why it was so powerful in influencing the way people 106 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: thought of the arrival of humanity and therefore then the 107 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 3: betterment of humanity over that time. So it was a 108 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 3: worldview which was born by Darwinism and basically took hold 109 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 3: in the social realm and actually fueled the social realm. 110 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 3: Though to be accurate, social Darwinism, even though it wouldn't 111 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 3: have been called Darwinism, but that social type of thinking 112 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: of competition and elimination of the week pre existed Darwin's 113 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: concept of natural selection. He just really gave it a 114 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 3: lot of credibility and scientific credibility. 115 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: All right. Well, without digging too deep into eugenics itself, 116 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: I think it would benefit us and the viewers and 117 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: listeners to just kind of talk about the kinds of 118 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: things that may have occurred during that time. And so 119 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't want to hear about this, just 120 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: be warned, we're talking about eugenics. This is not going 121 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: to be a happy subject. But I think that it 122 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 2: is important to talk about these things. So you said 123 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: that it is the quest to improve humanity, and so, 124 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: at least from my perspective from being a creationist, I 125 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 2: know that humanity is not getting better, at least biologically. 126 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: Generation to generation. We have more mutations, there's sickness and death, 127 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: and sure we have a lot of medicine and technology 128 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: gets better, but how are they trying to improve I guess, 129 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 2: the genome, the survivability, the fittest of humanity. How did 130 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 2: they try to do that? What were they doing? 131 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 3: Well, They're trying to do, in the really big picture, 132 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: control the evolution of humanity. It was like human intervention 133 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 3: in the evolution of humanity. In fact, the Second International 134 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 3: Conference on Eugenics basically defined eugenics as the self directed 135 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 3: control of human evolution. So they're trying to. 136 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: Do that, doing it instead of nature. 137 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: Instead of nature doing that, of course, you know, instead 138 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 3: of nature doing it, we're going to try to replicate 139 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 3: what nature is doing. And there's there's multiple facets to it. 140 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 3: One there was the view that modern medicine was a 141 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 3: threat to human evolution, that because medicine could now intervene 142 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: at earlier stages, it could save people and was saving 143 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: people that normally would have died, and it was saving 144 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 3: them to the point where they would actually develop and 145 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 3: go on to their reproductive years and then reproduce. It 146 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 3: also was viewed in society as developing a tolerance for 147 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 3: people who normally shouldn't reproduce. In this particular case, it 148 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 3: would have been people who would have been considered to 149 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: be mentally unfit that at other times would have been 150 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 3: eliminated in some way and would not have been able 151 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 3: to reproduce. But this care, welfare, humanity, and other interventions 152 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 3: was allowing them to only live, but kind of like 153 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 3: nurturing them along to where they could actually reproduce, and 154 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 3: the fear was that they would then reproduce mental unfit themselves. 155 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 3: Another aspect of it is what would be called positive eugenics, 156 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 3: where it's almost like what you would do with cattle. 157 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 3: You take your best cows, you take your best bulls 158 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 3: from your herd, you breed them together, and you're selecting 159 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 3: for positive traits in which you would try to breed 160 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 3: into it, which in a way is also kind of 161 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 3: even though it's called positive, it has this kind of 162 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 3: CD side to it where you're like trying to pick 163 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:33,479 Speaker 3: who's the best and encouraging them to breed. In certain societies, 164 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 3: they didn't even take people who loved each other. They're 165 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 3: just trying to select for the best genes, so it 166 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 3: isn't fully positive. And then, of course then there's the 167 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 3: negative eugenics, which was the part that really raised the 168 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 3: biggest outcry, and that was forced sterilizations, government mandated sterilizations 169 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 3: of people who were deemed unfit. 170 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: And this happened in the US. 171 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: Oh yes, okay, happened in the US, happened in Great Britain, 172 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 3: and of course it happened in the Scandinavian company countries 173 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: as well in Germany. Happened all over Western society in 174 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 3: many ways, led by the United States abortion. Even before 175 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 3: there was Roe v. Wade, there was abortion in this country, 176 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 3: and then euthanasia, which all of these haven't really left 177 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 3: society by any means, and in fact are even increasing today. 178 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: So I have something written down here in my notes, 179 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 2: and it said that you mentioned like medicine was kind 180 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: of ruining the process of natural selection. I have here 181 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 2: that it's like civilization and its entirety is ruined the 182 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 2: process of natural selection, and eugenics must replace it. To me, 183 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: that seems like society and civilization is what makes us 184 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: human in the first place, Like that doesn't ruin anything 185 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: that that is us. I mean right, Is that not right? 186 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 3: That's what makes us civilized, That's what makes us different 187 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 3: than animals, is the fact that all of us were 188 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 3: created in the image of God, and we have this sense, 189 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 3: almost this innate sense of the value of other human beings. 190 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 3: Of course, your conscience can be overridden, it can be 191 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 3: poisoned to where you no longer see that. But I 192 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 3: think you're referring to a quote. I'll just read it 193 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 3: because it is so valuable. It's from a man named 194 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 3: Carl Pearson. Carl Pearson, let me just give a little 195 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 3: bit of background on him. Carl Pearson was a British biostatistician, 196 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 3: and in many ways he did a lot of good things. 197 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 3: When I was at Harvard getting my master's in public 198 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 3: health and I was taking courses in biostats I use 199 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 3: many equations by Carl Pearson. In fact, they're just called 200 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 3: Pearson equations in many ways. And I was unaware of 201 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 3: this other side of him, that he was such an 202 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 3: advocate back at the turn of the last century for eugenics. 203 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,599 Speaker 3: I was always thinking it was Francis Calton, who was 204 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 3: the cousin of Charles Darwin. But Pearson, in many ways 205 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 3: was a leader of this movement and influenced in the 206 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 3: United States as well. And this was an interesting quote 207 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 3: that he had, And he actually had two. I have two, 208 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 3: one from nineteen twenties and one from nineteen twelve, a 209 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: long time, long time ago. And I'll read the nineteen 210 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 3: twenty one first, because it kind of gives an overview. 211 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 3: By this time he had developed his thoughts a little 212 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 3: bit better about this, and then I'll just pick right 213 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 3: up and read the nineteen twelve one, which he read 214 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 3: to a bunch of medical doctors out of medical society. 215 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: And I think they'll just give us some things to 216 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 3: discuss where Pearson said quote. In my mind and in 217 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 3: a growing number of other minds, civilization will end unless 218 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 3: civilization can find a method of doing for itself what 219 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: natural selection. And if you show, if you print this 220 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 3: quote for the people on the screen, they'll see it's 221 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 3: a capital and in capital s did for man during 222 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 3: his assent, ensuring that he shall breed only from his best. 223 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: The study of how that is possible forms the subject 224 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: matter of what we now term the science of eugenics. 225 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 3: We have to replace the ruthless action of natural selection 226 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 3: by reason conduct of civilized man. That's grossh It's like 227 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 3: an oxymoron. It's one of these perversions that you almost 228 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: sense there's this evil influence in it, because it's taking 229 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 3: what normally would be seen as good and turning it 230 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 3: completely on its head. The reason conduct of civilized man 231 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 3: has to be replaced with this ruthless action of natural 232 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 3: selection which brought us there and earlier, he had said 233 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 3: to a Medical Society meeting in nineteen twelve. And it's 234 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 3: really quite a long quote, but we have a shortened 235 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 3: version of it, he says. Nevertheless, medical science has to 236 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 3: face the fact that the upward progress of man in 237 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 3: the past has been largely controlled by stringent Darwinian selection. 238 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 3: Just pause right there. What he's talking about his death 239 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 3: is that people had died in his view of how 240 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 3: man got here, and that's how we got better, and 241 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 3: that's how we got better. In fact, that's the only 242 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 3: way you get better is by one stepping on the 243 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 3: corpse of the other and advancing that away. He adds, 244 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 3: we shall gain nothing for racial efficiency by neglecting the 245 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 3: central fact of human development. Now, if there be a 246 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 3: fairly stringent selection of the weaker individuals by the mortality 247 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 3: of infancy and childhood. What will happen? And he's asking 248 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 3: the doctors this, what will happen if by increased medical 249 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 3: skill and by increase state increased state support and private charity, 250 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 3: we enable the weaklings to survive and to propagate their kind. Why, 251 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 3: undoubtedly we shall have a weaker race, But we can 252 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 3: show from isolated instances that in many ways medical science 253 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 3: has led to survival of the unfit. 254 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: That goes back to what you said earlier, right, you know, 255 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: medicine is a problems in this regard, that's all right. 256 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: He saw that as a problem and he said this 257 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: quote goes on. He says these physicians later on, Now, 258 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 3: if you take natural selection as your worldview, and I'm 259 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 3: paraphrasing him here, but that's what he says to them, 260 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 3: then you must put into practice medical doctors. You must 261 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 3: put into practice that you believe in natural selection. What 262 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 3: he's saying then is what. 263 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: They have to choose between life and death for these people. 264 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, wow. 265 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 3: It's it is scummy. So people who have put their 266 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 3: trust in medical doctors for their well being and care 267 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 3: can't trust them because these medical doctors are not their 268 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 3: patient's advocates. They're the advocates for humanity, they're the advocates 269 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 3: for human evolution, and that's what he's calling on them 270 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 3: to be. 271 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 2: As a medical doctor, how does that make you feel. 272 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 3: It makes me feel like a trader. Okay, it would 273 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: make me feel like a complete trader to my patients 274 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 3: on that where if anybody is going to be their advocate, 275 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 3: if anybody is going to stand up for their patient, 276 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 3: and that's what my job was as a medical doctor 277 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 3: to fight for them, to argue for them, to do 278 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 3: everything I can to get the resources they need to 279 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 3: get better, not just apply medical skills, but to basically 280 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 3: be in their corner with them. And that's what real 281 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: medical doctors are supposed to do, is to be on 282 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 3: their patient's side. That now, I have a divided interest, 283 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 3: and I am supposedly put the best interests of humanity 284 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 3: and my worldview of natural selection into effect in essence 285 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 3: not do my best forum or worse, do things to 286 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 3: hasten their demise. 287 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, so we know that this is really gross. 288 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: Eugenics is immoral, distasteful, but it's not at least to 289 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: the extent that it was. It's not in practice to 290 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: that extent anymore. I mean, we're not We don't have 291 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: like marriage registries or anything like that, for like choosing 292 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 2: a thit mate, at least as far as I know. 293 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 2: So it's fallen out of practice to an extent. 294 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 3: Would you would agree, Oh, yes, But we can't really 295 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 3: gloss over how extensive it was in this country. Most 296 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 3: people don't realize that the United States was the leader 297 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 3: in this and it's fallen out of practice. But what 298 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 3: I didn't realize was that in the United States, thirty 299 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 3: one states, thirty one states had passed forced sterilization laws 300 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 3: and leaders in the United States of doing it were 301 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 3: Virginia in Indiana, and the laws of these states were 302 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 3: actually taken by the Nazis, the Nazi German government, and 303 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 3: they were used as the basis for them developing their laws. 304 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: And most people don't realize this. I know, we think 305 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: that that it was the Nazis who were the leaders 306 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 3: of this, but it wasn't. And in fact, they took 307 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 3: the law in Virginia and they used that as the 308 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 3: basis for developing their laws. And thirty one states had 309 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 3: developed four sterilization laws, and over seventy thousand American citizens 310 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 3: were forcibly sterilized during that period of time against their will, 311 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 3: so much so that there was a major Supreme Court 312 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 3: decision referred to quite often called Buck versus Bell, Buck 313 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 3: versus Bell, and it was, I'll just summarize it very quickly, 314 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 3: a woman who did not want to be forcibly sterilized, 315 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 3: and she was deemed to be mentally unfit, and her 316 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 3: mother was deemed to be mentally unfit as well, and 317 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: she fought the for sterilization and went all the way 318 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 3: to the Supreme Court, and the Chief Justice of the 319 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 3: Supreme Court, Oliver Wendel Holmes, wrote the major decison vision 320 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: and he basically said, and I'm paraphrasing again, but pretty accurate. 321 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 3: He said, you know, we call on the best citizens 322 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 3: of the United States to lay down their lives in wars, 323 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 3: and therefore it's not too much to ask other people 324 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 3: to be forcibly sterilized. Or he said, the cutting of 325 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: the fallopian tubes is a minor sacrifice in comparison to 326 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 3: laying down your life for the betterment of society. Therefore, 327 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 3: the order is put into effect. And the order was 328 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 3: that she was sterilized. And as it turns out, she 329 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 3: never was a mental defective at all. She was quite normal. 330 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 3: And that went on for quite some time, and as 331 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 3: you mentioned, the four sterilizations began to fall out of favor, 332 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 3: but they didn't really go away until nineteen seventy three, 333 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: when which is not that long. Yes, I know. That's 334 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 3: what's quite shocking is it went all the way up 335 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: until the nineteen seventies. By this time I was fourteen 336 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 3: years old and was completely unaware of any of this happening. 337 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: When three young girls African Americans in Alabama were taken 338 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 3: to a family planning clinic and the oldest was sixteen 339 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 3: years old and she had a forced IUD inserted and 340 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 3: her two sisters, they were called the Ralph Sisters El 341 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 3: r Elf. The Ralph Sisters fourteen years old and twelve 342 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: years old, were forcibly sterilized at that age, and they were, 343 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 3: as far as we know, the last four sterilizations in 344 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:56,719 Speaker 3: the United States. But we can't forget this all goes 345 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: back to this mentality of Sir Vival of the fittest right, 346 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 3: that it was natural selection which brought us to the 347 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: place we are as humans and we are undoing the 348 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 3: effects of selection right. 349 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: Well, that that brings me to I have I have 350 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: here not, you know, it says defenders of Darwinian thought. 351 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 2: They're like, oh, well, this was just a misapplication of Darwinism. 352 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: This wasn't like Darwin didn't intend this. But like you 353 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 2: you read those quotes, I mean you, it looks like 354 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 2: this is just a consequence of that natural, that selectionist 355 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: thinking mindset. 356 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 3: Yes, it's a consequence of it, and it is the 357 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 3: outworking of it completely. And you know, a lot of 358 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 3: times we talk about it, we say there's the Darwinian 359 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 3: eugenics connection or the evolution eugenics connection, and in many 360 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 3: ways we're just soft pedaling it because so many of 361 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 3: us still want to hold on to the selectionist worldview. 362 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 3: We don't want to tie it right back to where 363 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 3: Carl Pearson and Francis Galton tied to two, which is 364 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 3: the struggle to survive and one one lineage dominating over another. 365 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 3: And as you've mentioned, it's a consequence, but selectionism also 366 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 3: gave it a sense that it was normal, scientific, scientifically 367 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 3: and natural. You know, we look in the natural realm 368 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 3: and we see some organisms as dominant in some as submissive, 369 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 3: and therefore, oh, selection brought that dominance about, and selection 370 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 3: brought that submissius submissiveness about therefore it should be normal 371 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 3: in humanity as well. And we see differences in certain 372 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,719 Speaker 3: segments of population, particularly in the United States and Western 373 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 3: country at that time, minorities we're in economically inferior positions 374 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 3: to white people in Western society, and selectionism gave the idea, well, 375 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 3: that was just natural and that was just normal, that 376 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: selection not only leads to fitter people and survival of 377 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 3: the fites, but it leads to this type of segregation. 378 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 3: And it's it's not that it's abnormal, but it's actually normal, 379 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: so across the board. In many ways, selectionist thinking really 380 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 3: grips a mindset leading to these perverse outcomes. 381 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, we're going to continue this conversation in just 382 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: a second, but I'm going to interject this is related, 383 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 2: but I just this is our random science question of 384 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 2: the day. Okay, are you ready? Okay, Okay, all right 385 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: here it is, Why, in your opinion do you think 386 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 2: Darwinian thought had such a stranglehold? Why did it grip 387 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: society the way that it did and still does. What 388 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 2: about it made it so appealing? What about it made 389 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 2: it so just like yeah, like made everybody go, Okay, yeah, 390 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: this is it. This is how we're going to run 391 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 2: the world from now on. Like, what what about it 392 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: made it so appealing to everyone? 393 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 3: Well, that's a great question. In many ways, it's almost 394 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 3: like the perfect storm. You've you've heard of that movie 395 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 3: Everything Lined Yeah, George Cleaney was in it, and and 396 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 3: he evidently wasn't the fittest and in the movie. But 397 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 3: the perfect storm is where so many things line up 398 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 3: to lead to a disaster. In the in the military, 399 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 3: we called it the Swiss cheese effect, where you have 400 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 3: to get all of the holes to line up just 401 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 3: the right way, all these different conditions, and then disaster strike, 402 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 3: eliminate any one of those, and you kind of prevent 403 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 3: the disaster from happening. And in society there was a 404 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,959 Speaker 3: lot of things lining up one higher. Criticism of the 405 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 3: Bible had taken hold of a lot of thinking. So 406 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 3: people were beginning to doubt the Bible anyway, and they 407 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 3: were questioning the historicity of the scriptures in areas that 408 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 3: were not even related to science. They were questioning the 409 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 3: historical accounts and genesis and all over. So there was 410 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 3: a questioning of the authority of the scriptures. Bank. That's 411 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 3: like one hole right there. There's this loss in the 412 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 3: authority of scriptures. Two, the Industrial Revolution was beginning to 413 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 3: take off in the eighteen sixties and all the way 414 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 3: through the eighteen nineties and early nineteen hundreds, and there 415 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: was this element of social Darwinism, even though it wasn't 416 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 3: called at that time the social idea of Darwinism, but 417 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: there was this idea where you dominate over the weaker 418 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 3: one industry if it can can eliminate the competition, become 419 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 3: a monopoly, and just become dominant altogether. And that was 420 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 3: almost looked up to and respected in some ways as 421 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 3: the way of the world, even before Darwin was even 422 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 3: pushing this. So you had this this kind of ruthlessness 423 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 3: which was taking hold in society as well. There's like 424 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 3: another line of the cy light which preceded Darwin's thinking. 425 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 3: In fact, Darwin borrowed ideas from that and incorporated him 426 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:41,479 Speaker 3: into his selectionist mindset. And that and the third is 427 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 3: the rise of science and the prestige of science, and 428 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 3: science can give things credibility, a credibility of knowledge which 429 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 3: began to rival the credibility which religious figures used to 430 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 3: have when they would speak, and they would, and people 431 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 3: took that as the truth. Now science would speak. In 432 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 3: other words, it's like, believe the science, obey the science. 433 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 3: Have you heard that recently? We're follow the science. Science 434 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 3: gives things a lot of credibility. Being there's another whole. 435 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 3: So the view of the Bible, the Industrial Revolution, the 436 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 3: rise of the authority of science, and then Darwin's thinking 437 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 3: got the stamp of science and scientific credibility. So people 438 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 3: were just like, whoa, this is exactly what we have 439 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 3: been waiting for to free us from the shackles of 440 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 3: religious thinking all along. And he provides a way to 441 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: explain the design of life. He provides a way to 442 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 3: explain the diversity of life which doesn't refer to a 443 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 3: direct creation by God, and wallah, we now have an 444 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 3: explanation for how we got here that seems to make 445 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 3: sense and has scientific authority, and seems to go with 446 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 3: the ways of the world and responsible to a creator 447 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 3: and we're not responsible to a creator. And all of 448 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 3: those things were lining up in my opinion. 449 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very well thought out opinion. 450 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 3: To lead to the acceptance of Darwinian thinking. 451 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 2: Okay, well, thank you very much. That's that's great. I mean, 452 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: it's not great that it happened, but it kind of 453 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: makes sense that it that all those pieces lined up 454 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: at the exact right time and then then it just 455 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: took hold because I always kind of wondered, you know, 456 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 2: I mean, what about him? Because you read it and 457 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 2: it's you read the Origin of Species and it's it's 458 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: you know, there's some interesting ideas, but it's not any 459 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 2: real different than like there were a lot of other 460 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: thought process processes going on at the time. Why did 461 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: that one take hold? So I think, yeah, that's that's 462 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: a great just summary of why why it took off. Yeah, 463 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: it does, well, thank you. So we'll get back to 464 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: the topic at hand, which is really related, I think, 465 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: because we're now going to talk about why why eugenics 466 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 2: kind of took hold in the US, Why why it 467 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: held the US and Western culture in its grip for 468 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: so long. So eugenics is a moral. We know that 469 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 2: it's a moral. We can just see that and feel 470 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: that in our conscience. We know that from the get go, 471 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: But why and how is it so accepted? And it's time. 472 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 3: Well, that actually made almost like a playbook for how 473 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 3: almost any scientific idea becomes accepted today and becomes dominant 474 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 3: because you're right, you know, the whole idea of forcibly 475 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 3: sterilizing a person, that's just that just kind of goes 476 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 3: against our conscience and as Americans, and went against this 477 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 3: whole idea of freedom. So how did you get the 478 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 3: idea that that this was something good, that that this 479 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 3: this is something that we ought to do well? That 480 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 3: goes back to the authority of science in many ways, 481 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 3: And you just didn't have eugenics just pop onto the scene. 482 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 3: As Pearson said, we call it the science of eugenics. 483 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 3: And so it was built up as a major scientific work, 484 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 3: and there were credible, respectable, peer reviewed journals that were established, 485 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 3: two leading ones that were established in the United States, 486 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 3: and they were set up by eugenicists. They were peer 487 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 3: reviewed by other eugenicists. But once something gets published in 488 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 3: a peer reviewed scientific journal, it takes on a level 489 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 3: of credibility which is very hard to argue against in 490 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 3: a lot of other ways. So it's like Harvard publishes 491 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 3: a peer reviewed study on such and such and it 492 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 3: goes to Congress, and then people are going to listen 493 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 3: to that, and then someone wants to criticize it. The 494 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 3: first thing they're going to say is, well, do you 495 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 3: have any scientifically peer reviewed studies on your own? And 496 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 3: the answer is no, we don't have them. And part 497 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 3: of the reason why you don't have them is because 498 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 3: you don't have your own journals, and two critical studies 499 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 3: that you might want published in the journals never pass 500 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 3: peer review because they're controlled by the eugenicists. Second, you 501 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 3: end up with major conferences that are established international conferences 502 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 3: on eugenics, and people get invited to be keynote speakers, 503 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 3: and then they take on an air of authority. And 504 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 3: then those people get established as department heads or chairmen 505 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 3: of major universities, and that gives them even more authority. 506 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 3: So now you have doctor so and so, who is 507 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 3: the chair of the department of such and such at 508 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 3: this major leading university, says and that makes it hard 509 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 3: to argue with as well in all of those areas. 510 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 3: So you have the basically the stamp of approval of 511 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 3: science by establishing the major leaders in control of the 512 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 3: major universities running the major peer reviewed publications, and all 513 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 3: dissenting opinion is effectively squashed. 514 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 2: Well to me, that correct me if I'm wrong? To me, 515 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 2: that just sounds like, Hey, we want to get this 516 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 2: idea promoted. We're going to start a club and we're 517 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 2: gonna invite all of our friends who also believe this idea, 518 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 2: and then we're going to make a big deal about it. 519 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 2: We're going to make some magazines, we're going to make 520 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 2: some we're gonna have some big conferences, and only our 521 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 2: friends and people who believe like us can join this club. 522 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: And if you're not a part of this club, you're out, 523 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 2: like you have no credibility whatsoever. I mean, that's what 524 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 2: it sounds. It sounds like they're manipulating everything exactly. 525 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 3: Okay, that's that became, as I said, like a playbook once. 526 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 3: And what's interesting is nobody even thinks about the fact 527 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 3: that eugenics had all of this scientific prestige behind it. 528 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 3: It fell out of favor primarily because I had a 529 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 3: lot of racial overtones to it and it was gone. 530 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 3: But if you go back in time, it had as 531 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 3: much scientific the scientific stamp of approval behind it as 532 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 3: evolutionary thinking does today. Who control the major journals, who 533 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 3: control the major research institutes, who who influence Congress, who 534 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 3: help influence laws and states and other things it's the 535 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 3: same and universities and the climate change debate is run 536 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 3: the same way. And I'm not even taking a stance 537 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 3: on global warming one way or the other. I'm just 538 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 3: saying the debate is controlled in the exact same way. 539 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 3: And it goes back to even at the time, if 540 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 3: you go back then smoking. 541 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: Nine out of ten doctors, an out of ten doctors. 542 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 3: This is that it does this even though a lot 543 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 3: of people knew it was smoking. And then there was 544 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 3: a major industry, which mind asbestos, and people were beginning 545 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 3: to wonder is there a connection between asbestos exposure and 546 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 3: lung disease? And all the major researchers came out on 547 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 3: the side of the asbestos mining companies because the money 548 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 3: was that's where the money was, and you had the 549 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 3: peer reviewed studies, you had everything else which squashed for 550 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 3: a long time dissenting views that there may be a 551 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 3: linkage between asbestos exposure and lung disease. So I could 552 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 3: point to multiple places where the science was totally wrong 553 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 3: and where people are telling us today to trust the 554 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 3: science or follow the science are completely ignorant of in 555 00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 3: many ways, the abysmal track record of consensus science and 556 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 3: trying to persuade people's thinking, there's just and there's another area. 557 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 3: There was a failure on the part of the church. 558 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 3: People in the church knew for sterilization was wrong, and 559 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 3: there was a major silence in the part of the 560 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 3: Protestant Church, particularly where pastors and other leaders basically caved 561 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 3: in to the scientists and either endorsed what they were 562 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 3: saying from their pulpits or were completely silent about it. 563 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 3: So a major segment of the moral voice in society 564 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 3: was completely blunted. It was absent, in fact, from the 565 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 3: religious side. The moral voice came against eugenics from the 566 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 3: Roman Catholic Church, which became the major voice pushing back 567 00:38:58,920 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 3: against it. 568 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 2: Good good, that's good. Well, it's good that someone was 569 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 2: speaking out against it. It's not good that the Protestants 570 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 2: did not. To me, that sounds very similar to the 571 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 2: situation that we're facing today with churches and evolution of 572 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 2: like we don't want to talk about it, or like 573 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 2: it's an iffy issue. We'll just be quiet because we 574 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: don't want to offend anybody. 575 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 3: Right, and you know, the scientists tell us and who 576 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 3: wants to look scientifically ignorant science? So it's there's so 577 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 3: many parallels to the situation the church is facing today 578 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 3: with creation evolution, and the church will be facing and 579 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 3: it's coming down on us like a freight train. With 580 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 3: the LGTBQ plus community as well, because they are going 581 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 3: to get the stamp of approval from science. They are 582 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 3: looking for the studies. They're looking for studies that people 583 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 3: are quote born this way, act this way, all these 584 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 3: other kinds of things. They want the stamp of approval 585 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 3: of science as well. 586 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 2: Because you can't argue with science. That's right, well, or 587 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 2: at least that's that's the general mindset. So in essence, 588 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 2: a small vocal minority controls the peer the peer review procedures. 589 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 2: They muffle any sort of criticism, and then they they 590 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 2: make their own experts the experts talk, and then they 591 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 2: just monopolize. I guess it comes to authority, the authority 592 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 2: of science, right, Okay, that's kind of scary, it is, yeah, 593 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 2: and and makes me really uncomfortable. But I want to 594 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 2: kind of tail end this with uh So, you said 595 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 2: that eugenics fell out of favor due to racial overtones. 596 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 2: Can you give us a little bit of just a 597 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 2: small snippet about that and why that's important. 598 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 3: Well, yes, because a lot of the people who were 599 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 3: considered to be un fit were racial minorities, and they suffered. 600 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 3: And this is a good use of the word disproportionate. 601 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 3: The effects of eugenics policies in the United States not 602 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 3: just minorities, but they were the major thrust of many 603 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 3: of these for sterilizations and other things. And for at 604 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 3: least one good reason, and that was the fact that 605 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 3: it was very racist in its applications. It started to 606 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 3: fall away, and then the whole idea of forcing someone 607 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 3: to be sterilized became more and more morally repugnant, and 608 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 3: then physicians and medical doctors are seeing that this is 609 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 3: just a misapplication of what they should be doing. It 610 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 3: went away. But in a way, it's a shame that 611 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 3: that is the only reason why it fell out of favor, 612 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 3: when we should actually be seeing that there was no 613 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 3: scientific justification for it at all. And number two, we're 614 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 3: not pinpointing the real problem, which was Darwin's selectionist worldview 615 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,840 Speaker 3: which led to survival of the fittest. Why is that 616 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 3: a problem? I guess I should be asking you the 617 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:18,759 Speaker 3: question you're supposed to be asking you. 618 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 2: That is a problem like it word, it's just a symptom. 619 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 2: It's a symptom of a greater issue. 620 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 3: It is, and it doesn't go away because in medicine, 621 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,080 Speaker 3: if you don't make the correct diagnosis of the problem, 622 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 3: then you won't treat it correctly. So if you're diagnosing 623 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,280 Speaker 3: the problem as racism and you're not diagnosing the problem 624 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 3: as Darwin's selectionism, then you're not treating the right thing. 625 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 3: And then selectionism doesn't really leave society. It hasn't evaporated 626 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,280 Speaker 3: from the church at all, and it just manifests itself 627 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 3: in other ways through socio biology or through evolutionary psychology, 628 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 3: which ends up with other manifestations where eugenics move. It 629 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 3: just morphed into the abortion I. 630 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 2: Was going to say, abortion is still alive, and well, 631 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 2: it's it's a huge issue, that's right. And even though 632 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 2: we've gotten rid of of some of the horrible aspects 633 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 2: of the eugenics movement, I mean, abortion is is horrible, 634 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 2: it is, you know, and and it's still here. It's 635 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 2: still here with us today. 636 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,279 Speaker 3: Exactly, and it's it's still practiced in many ways like eugenics. 637 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,280 Speaker 3: And this is another thing which people really need to consider. 638 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 3: It's another thing that they need to think about. You 639 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 3: end up with like coerced abortions. You know you want 640 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 3: to People want to say, well, these are voluntary abortions. 641 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 3: Well they're not necessarily always voluntary. Now let me explain 642 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 3: what I mean by course. So a couple goes in 643 00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 3: and they want genetic testing on their preborn child. And 644 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,879 Speaker 3: let's say the genetic testing comes back and it indicates 645 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 3: there's going to be some kind of problem, a deformity 646 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 3: or whatever it is, you as a couple have to 647 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 3: rely on unbiased counsel from somebody. But if you and 648 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 3: if you had unbiased counsel, then you could make an 649 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 3: informed decision what's called informed consent. But let's say you 650 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 3: came into me and I was a biased physician, and 651 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 3: I give you biased counsel because I have bigoted ideas 652 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 3: against some let's say, someone with Down syndrome, and I 653 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 3: don't value what they bring to society. All I see 654 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 3: is the cost to society of a person with Down syndrome. 655 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,359 Speaker 3: On that because I have this kind of warped view 656 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 3: of humanity, warped view of the value of people and 657 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:03,320 Speaker 3: all of this, can I give you biased counsel and 658 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 3: I give you skewed counsel about all the costs and 659 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 3: to society and the cost to you as a couple, 660 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 3: cost to you as a family. 661 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 2: You can twist it anyway. 662 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 3: I can twist it anyway I want in that situation 663 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 3: exactly and how this person will suffer and therefore in 664 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,920 Speaker 3: many ways it would be better off if they were 665 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 3: never born, right. 666 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 2: I actually uh a bit of a personal touch. For 667 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 2: those those of you listening and doing, you may get 668 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 2: a little more story about trade than you want. That 669 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 2: was the story of my mom was they recommended her 670 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 2: to abort me in in the early nineties. They said 671 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,720 Speaker 2: that I had lots of issues, and I was born, 672 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,720 Speaker 2: I was a little premature. I don't have any major 673 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 2: issues that I know of. But she was like, absolutely not. 674 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,400 Speaker 2: This child's made in the image of God, you know, 675 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,799 Speaker 2: and if he's got issues, he's got issues. But you know, 676 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 2: but even in the nineties they were right, they recommended that. 677 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 3: That's right exactly. And that is the creep of selectionist 678 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 3: thinking which ends up devaluing all the way, going back 679 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:11,960 Speaker 3: all the way to eugenics. 680 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 2: Human beings, we're human beings, were made in the image 681 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:22,239 Speaker 2: of God. There's we're not animals. It's they're treating us 682 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 2: like animals, you know, almost and and and it just 683 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,839 Speaker 2: makes me I think about some of just some of 684 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 2: the language that's used in the eugenics movement, and it's 685 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 2: just very uncomfortable. But I'm glad that we talked about it. 686 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,360 Speaker 2: Thank you for talking about it with me. Do you 687 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 2: have any closing thoughts before we before we draw this 688 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 2: to a close, sure. 689 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 3: One, just just as a follow up for couples, you 690 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 3: need to find good counselors. You know, you'll get good doctors, 691 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 3: and there's value of prenatal testing, and there's value of 692 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,560 Speaker 3: prenatal care and all those things, but you need to 693 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:05,840 Speaker 3: find doctors you can trust. 694 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 2: Too. 695 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 3: You need to rely on the Bible and what the 696 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 3: Bible tells you about that child that the Lord allowed 697 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:18,279 Speaker 3: you to conceive, and go forward on that. If you 698 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 3: don't get if you don't rely on the Bible, you 699 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,839 Speaker 3: will not have real informed consent and you rely on 700 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,040 Speaker 3: this biased information. And then three, even as creationists, we 701 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 3: need to watch the creep of selectionist thinking even into 702 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 3: our mindset. So often I will hear someone say like, well, 703 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 3: natural selection is just a conservative process. It's not a 704 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 3: constructive process and what they and I said, well, we'll 705 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 3: explain what you mean by that. Well, let's say, well, 706 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:53,319 Speaker 3: natural selection is basically a God ordained process to help 707 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 3: people live in a fallen world where nature eliminates the 708 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:04,440 Speaker 3: weak and eliminates those defective genes from the population, and 709 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:09,760 Speaker 3: therefore it really preserves and conserves the population, the genetic 710 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,280 Speaker 3: health of the population as a whole, for the benefit 711 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,959 Speaker 3: of everybody else. And we've even said those those kinds 712 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 3: of things in the past, and that just shows how 713 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:27,279 Speaker 3: easily your thinking can be swayed by selectionist thinking. Where 714 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,360 Speaker 3: we end up in essencey, God ordained a process to 715 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,800 Speaker 3: weed out the unfit for the benefit of the others. 716 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 3: And we don't even realize what we're saying, but we're 717 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 3: saying God is a eugenicist. 718 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my God is not a eugenicist. 719 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 3: Know. So we need to be careful and go back 720 00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:52,879 Speaker 3: to the Bible and our thinking and be suspicious when 721 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 3: the world tries to bring to our mind and put 722 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 3: into our mind their worldly. 723 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,800 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much. We'll actually we'll link in 724 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 2: this video. You have three episodes of our other podcast, 725 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,919 Speaker 2: Creation dot Live. Where you sit in with some other 726 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,800 Speaker 2: ICR scientists and you talk about some of the issues 727 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 2: with Darwinian selection and why that's a big deal. So 728 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,319 Speaker 2: we'll link to those so that others can watch and 729 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,320 Speaker 2: listen to those. I feel like that's a very good 730 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 2: full understanding of why that's a problem. But thank you 731 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 2: so much for being here, doctor g Yeah, and thank 732 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,879 Speaker 2: you to all of our listeners and viewers. We really 733 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,000 Speaker 2: appreciate you tuning in for this and listening to this. 734 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,440 Speaker 2: Please make sure to like, subscribe and share. We know 735 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,280 Speaker 2: that this can be a little bit of an uncomfortable topic, 736 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 2: but it's important to talk about and just as a reminder, 737 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 2: this is not just a misapplication of Darwinian selectionism. This 738 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 2: is a consequence. This is where Darwinian selectionism leads you 739 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,920 Speaker 2: just as an idea, as a worldview, it's very dangerous. 740 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 2: So we just encourage you to share that with your friends, 741 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 2: and we encourage you to examine your own thought processes 742 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,720 Speaker 2: to see if selectionism has crept in there in any way. 743 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 2: So for now, we'll see you next time on the 744 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 2: Creation podcast. 745 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 4: The podcast The Bible in a Year with Jack Graham 746 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,600 Speaker 4: is a moving and inspiring biblical audio experience that will 747 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,680 Speaker 4: help you master wisdom from the world's greatest book. In 748 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,800 Speaker 4: each episode, you'll learn to apply Biblical principles to everyday life. 749 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,439 Speaker 4: Each cinematic episode is a journey through the Bible's most 750 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,919 Speaker 4: profound stories that will strengthen your appreciation of the Word 751 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 4: and inspire you to keep learning. Listen to the Bible 752 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,080 Speaker 4: in a Year with Jack Graham on the iHeartRadio app 753 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts.