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Speaker 1: Hey, or hey, I have an idea for a new

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Speaker 1: science institute. Look nice, I guess you're going to call

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Speaker 1: it the White Sun Institute. No, no, no, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to call it the End of the World Research Institute.

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Speaker 1: What you want to study new ways to kill everyone?

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Speaker 1: There's plenty of people doing that already. I want to

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Speaker 1: study the ways science can help in a disaster. Oh

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Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. But wait, what if science is what

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Speaker 1: causes the disaster? We'll have a department for that. Also, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: who's going to lead that department? Professor Bruce willis, of

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Speaker 1: course the professor of saving the world. We have him

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Speaker 1: on standby. Whereas Bruce Willis when you need him. He's

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Speaker 1: at the End of the World Research Institute. The coronavirus.

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Speaker 1: Like all celebrities seem to do, Oh no, no, cut cut,

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Speaker 1: I am more hammad cartoonists and the creator of PhD coms. Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel Whitson. I'm a particle physicist and I'm not

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Speaker 1: actively working towards the end of actively but you're hoping

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Speaker 1: inadvertedly or what's your what's your motivation here? I'm not

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Speaker 1: hoping for the end of the world. I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to facilitate the end of the world. I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to speed the end times. I just want to get

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Speaker 1: it out side. Bivalent about the end of the world,

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying, if it comes, it wasn't because I

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Speaker 1: made it happen. I'm not saying I won't be at fault,

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Speaker 1: but should have put more funding into science. That's right,

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Speaker 1: Maybe particle physics would have saved the world. Well. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio, in which we take you

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Speaker 1: away from the concerns and worries of the every day

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Speaker 1: and travel out into the universe and think about all

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Speaker 1: the crazy, amazing, beautiful, terrifying, extreme, and gorgeous things out there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you know, we are living in pretty interesting times,

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Speaker 1: and we figured what better way to get us all

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Speaker 1: through this than to think about the larger universe, the

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Speaker 1: fast costumes out there that make us seem like insignificant

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Speaker 1: little things. That's right. And usually on this podcast we

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Speaker 1: pick a topic in science. It's at the sort of

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Speaker 1: the forefront in the brains of scientists. Things people are

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Speaker 1: wondering about, a problem, they're trying to crack, a question,

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Speaker 1: that scientists are currently asking, and we share it with

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Speaker 1: you because, in our opinion, the universe belongs to all

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Speaker 1: of us, and wondering about the universe is a common

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Speaker 1: human experience. That's why we are all in this together.

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Speaker 1: And we're also all made of the same stuff. Right,

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Speaker 1: That's right, me, You, lava and hamsters were basically all

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Speaker 1: the same thing. And space bananas. Don't forget the banannas.

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Speaker 1: I'm not including space banana is in that category. Now,

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Speaker 1: that's in a separate different categories like dark matter. We

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Speaker 1: don't know. I've never had one, so I can decide

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Speaker 1: with Maybe I'll love space bananas. Maybe space bananas will

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Speaker 1: bring me into the fold of the Church of the

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Speaker 1: Maybe they turn into dark matter, just like real bananas.

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Speaker 1: Real bananas do turn into a form of dark matter.

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Speaker 1: That's true. But now we like to talk about the universe,

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Speaker 1: all the things in it, and also all of the

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Speaker 1: ideas that are out there about science and how science

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Speaker 1: can impact society, and how it can help society, and

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Speaker 1: how might it even affect if something happens to humanity.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and we like to think optimistically on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: We'd like to think that science is one of humanity's

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Speaker 1: greatest inventions. It's pulled us out of lots of scrapes,

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Speaker 1: it's provided quality of life, it's brought you this podcast,

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Speaker 1: and so we hope that in some crazy end of

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Speaker 1: the world scenario, scientists will pull together and bring us

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Speaker 1: all through. And it's even cooler when this great invention

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Speaker 1: of humanity meets another great invention of humanity, which is

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Speaker 1: the arts and writing and creative that's right, and that's

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Speaker 1: why on this podcast we've been doing a series of

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Speaker 1: episodes about the physics of science fiction universe versus. I've

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Speaker 1: been reading science fiction and talking to authors about how

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Speaker 1: they constructed their universe, how much physics they put into it,

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Speaker 1: how it reflects on our universe, and how it reflects

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Speaker 1: on the human experience. So you can look back through

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Speaker 1: our archive and find a couple of great book reviews

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Speaker 1: and author interviews that we've done with several pretty well

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Speaker 1: known and award winning recent science fiction novels. And so today,

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Speaker 1: um the program, we are doing another of these series

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Speaker 1: where we talk about a book that recently won the

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Speaker 1: Hugo and the Nebula awards, right, which are like the

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Speaker 1: I Guess, the Oscars and Emmy's of Science Fiction Writing Writing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's more like the Golden Globes and the Oscars. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty impressive to even be nominated for one of these,

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Speaker 1: to win one of these, to win both of them

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Speaker 1: in the same year is really a monumental agency. And

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Speaker 1: which one is hosted by Ricky Gervais if you can

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Speaker 1: believe it. The hosts are even nerdier for these awards.

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Speaker 1: So what do they do? They dress up? Is there

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Speaker 1: like a ceremony with the taxes and stuff? Um? I

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Speaker 1: think they cosplay. I'm not sure. Oh nice, I've never been.

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Speaker 1: I've never been one of these, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: they're broadcast on TV. Somebody writes a book about that.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of these books are wonderful. But we're

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Speaker 1: not choosing these books because they want awards. We just

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Speaker 1: for the books we've chosen that are wonderful. We'd like

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Speaker 1: to mention that, hey, these authors have some deserved acclaim.

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Speaker 1: And for today's episode, I thought it would be fun

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Speaker 1: to talk about a dystopian science fiction novel, one in

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Speaker 1: which science comes to the rescue and saves humanity. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because Daniel, you're a big fan of science fiction, and

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Speaker 1: we are living in interesting times and how did how

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Speaker 1: did you peec these two things together? And is it

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Speaker 1: really fiction? At this point? It is fascinating. I started

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Speaker 1: reading this book and I made plans to read this book,

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Speaker 1: which is all about how science might rescue humanity in

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Speaker 1: the face of a huge catastrophe, well before this pandemic started,

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Speaker 1: and now it's sort of increasingly relevant and you'll hear

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Speaker 1: about I had a pretty fascinating conversation with the author

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Speaker 1: about how the current pandemic impacts her thinking about science

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Speaker 1: and technology and it's interfacing with government and people and

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Speaker 1: how people feel about this stuff. It's a it's an

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Speaker 1: important topic. Let's dive into it. So to be on

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Speaker 1: the program, we'll be asking the question can science save

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Speaker 1: humanity from a crisis? The science Fitching Universe of Mary

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Speaker 1: Robin and Cole and her book The Calculating Stars. So

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Speaker 1: this is a pretty recent book, right. It came out

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Speaker 1: in two thousand eighteen, two thousand nineteen, Yeah, it came

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Speaker 1: out around then, and it's in a series of books

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Speaker 1: about the Lady Astronauts, and it's all about women becoming

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Speaker 1: astronauts and being on the forefront of exploration, and it's fascinating.

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Speaker 1: It's a novel she wrote. It's a prequel to a

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Speaker 1: short story she wrote called The Lady Astronaut many years ago,

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Speaker 1: which was also wonderful, and she liked this universe she

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Speaker 1: created so much, and now she's written a series of

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Speaker 1: books as a prequel to that short story. So there's

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Speaker 1: The Calculating Stars, then there's The Faded Sky, and she

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Speaker 1: has a new book coming out next year in this trilogy.

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Speaker 1: And she has a pretty interesting history for a science

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Speaker 1: fiction author. She used to be a puppeteer for Jim Henson. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and now she's like officially on the Sesame Street Hall

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Speaker 1: of Fame. So she is really an artist, you know,

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Speaker 1: comes from a creative background. She's not one of these

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Speaker 1: science fiction authors that was once a scientist and then

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Speaker 1: transitioned into writing. She's always been on the creative, sort

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Speaker 1: of the non Mathew, you know, artistic inspired side of things.

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Speaker 1: But I asked her about that. You'll hear her answer.

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Speaker 1: She feels like being a puppeteer and being a science

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Speaker 1: fiction author sort of draw from the same inspiration. Really,

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Speaker 1: I guess you're using your imagination and coming up with

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Speaker 1: the voices and characters. Is that kind of what she meant. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all sciences really just make believe. So you guys just

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Speaker 1: sit in meetings moving your hands, going blah blah blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. Yeah, and this is a really fascinating book.

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Speaker 1: It's different from a lot of the other stuff that

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Speaker 1: I read, which tends to be like far future science fiction,

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Speaker 1: space opera, crazy technology, alternative universe physics. This one is

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Speaker 1: placed in our universe, and it's sort of alternative history

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Speaker 1: science fiction. It's like going back in time to do

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Speaker 1: science fiction. So it's it's pretty fascinating, and she takes

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Speaker 1: a very different approach to writing and to incorporating the

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Speaker 1: science into the story than almost anything else I've right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you told me that. It's very realistic about the science,

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Speaker 1: sort of like the Martian, you know, where they really

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Speaker 1: sort of don't invent or do anything magical. They just

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Speaker 1: try to work with what we have right now. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One thing about being a scientist is that you never

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Speaker 1: really know what's going on. You have limited information, and

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Speaker 1: from that you're trying to figure out what's going on,

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Speaker 1: what should I do? How do I gather the next

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Speaker 1: piece of information? And you rarely see that in science

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Speaker 1: fiction in science fiction, it's usually something happens and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the scientists have some like awesome

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Speaker 1: heads of display with graphics and visuals that shows you

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Speaker 1: exactly what's going on. And she really got the process

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Speaker 1: part of this, that the experience of not knowing and

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Speaker 1: how do you figure it out and those little trickles

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Speaker 1: of discovery, you know, coming in to change your opinion

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Speaker 1: about what might be happening. She really nailed it. And

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Speaker 1: that's so impressive, especially for somebody who hasn't actually done it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she doesn't have a science back interesting and

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Speaker 1: you're telling me that it has sort of an interesting

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Speaker 1: theme or undercurrent about how governments and societies and scientists

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Speaker 1: can work together or how they react to a natural

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Speaker 1: disaster or like a global crisis. Yeah, absolutely, it's I

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Speaker 1: think people will find it very relevant for today. It

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Speaker 1: touches on themes of like when the scientists say there's

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Speaker 1: a huge disaster coming, how do they get the government

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Speaker 1: to listen? Like if you look at your window and

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Speaker 1: you don't see the world on fire, but the scientists

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Speaker 1: are telling you it's going to be on fire in

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Speaker 1: a week, we better act now, how do you get

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Speaker 1: the government to believe you. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: really interesting stuff in there that people might have thought,

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Speaker 1: oh this is really relevant, or its analogy to like

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Speaker 1: climate change, but now it's much more an analogy to

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Speaker 1: what we're facing today. Well, but the scenario is a

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Speaker 1: little bit different, right, So it's not a pandemic, it's

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Speaker 1: not a virus or anything like that. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: a little bit more science and spacey. Um, So step

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Speaker 1: us through this book, Daniel. First of all, before we

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Speaker 1: get get to the interview, Now, what's the basic idea

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Speaker 1: of the book and and when is it set. So

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Speaker 1: it's set on Earth in our universe in around the

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifties. So you know, modern technology doesn't exist. We

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Speaker 1: don't have tiny computers and all that stuff, but it

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Speaker 1: but it was our world when we were in the

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Speaker 1: in the fifties. It's not like an alternate ninet fifties

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Speaker 1: where they had hoverboards. It's like the same nineties. It's

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Speaker 1: the same nineteen fifties, but then it diverges, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's an alternative history starting from our nineteen fifties. We

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Speaker 1: still beat the Nazis, right, we still beat the Nazis,

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Speaker 1: But sometime in the nineteen fifties, an enormous meteorite hits

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Speaker 1: the Earth and basically wipes out d C in a flash.

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Speaker 1: What of all places on Earth DC gets hit? I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure if you mean that it's like, hey, nice

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Speaker 1: choice meteorite, or like, oh no, I guess I mean

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Speaker 1: nice choice there. What's the one place it can hit

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Speaker 1: that would cause the maximum amount of chaos? And the

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Speaker 1: story takes place from the point of view of a

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Speaker 1: young woman who's gifted mathematically and she's a pilot. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things I like about the book is

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Speaker 1: that when you start out, you don't know what's happened.

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Speaker 1: It's just she's out with her friends and she ex

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Speaker 1: sees this huge thing in the sky. She doesn't know

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Speaker 1: are we being attacked by the Russians or has a

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Speaker 1: meteorite hit? And she's piecing it together bit by bit

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Speaker 1: exactly the way that she would And you know, she

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Speaker 1: doesn't know if her parents have survived. And this this

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Speaker 1: experience of not knowing what's going on and piecing it together,

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Speaker 1: he's really really well done because this is pre twitter, right,

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Speaker 1: how did anybody learn any get any information? You have

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Speaker 1: to like good thing you stand and um. You know,

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Speaker 1: of course as immediate impact, which is DC has gone,

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Speaker 1: our government has decimated all that stuff you have to

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Speaker 1: react to. But like, how much time did people have

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Speaker 1: to to react to this? No time at all. There

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Speaker 1: was no warning, We had no idea what was happening.

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Speaker 1: It was just all of a sudden boom. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about the plausibility of the scenario. But but

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Speaker 1: then that's not all. It gets worse. Yeah, it seems

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Speaker 1: immediately to just be a big disaster, like, Okay, d

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Speaker 1: C is gone, we have a lot of rebuilding to do.

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Speaker 1: But this scientist chief figures out pretty quickly that there's

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Speaker 1: longer term consequences to this, that what it's going to

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Speaker 1: happen is that it's going to create a big greenhouse effect.

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Speaker 1: It's going to heat up the entire earth, and it's

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Speaker 1: going to make the Earth uninhabitable in a few years,

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Speaker 1: kind of like what happened to the dinosaurs. Like you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't the impact that killed the dinosaurs, but like

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Speaker 1: the dust cloud kind of you have the longer term

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Speaker 1: effects there. And we'll talk about the details of the science.

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Speaker 1: But when you have a big impact like that, you

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Speaker 1: can either throw up a bunch of dust and ash

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Speaker 1: and create like an impact winter, right, because you're blocking

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Speaker 1: out the sun and the Earth goes into an ice age.

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Speaker 1: Or you can create a greenhouse effect, which can be

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Speaker 1: a runaway effect, so you can basically turn the Earth

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Speaker 1: into an oven. And either way, it's not either way

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Speaker 1: meteors or not good. I wouldn't recommend ordering a meteor

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Speaker 1: for delivery, even if it's a no contact de la.

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Speaker 1: Even then, and as a reaction, Earth has to scramble

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Speaker 1: and they have to develop space technology and basically start

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Speaker 1: to colonize Mars because they realize Earth is no longer

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Speaker 1: going to be a place we can live. In the fifties,

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Speaker 1: we didn't get to the moon until nineteen sixty nine, right,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Wow, So this was like way accelerating, and

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Speaker 1: that was in response to what felt like a disaster

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Speaker 1: at the time, right, which is like the Russians are

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Speaker 1: beating us in the space race. And so a lot

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Speaker 1: of this is about how humanity makes its priorities. You know.

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Speaker 1: It makes the point that if we had to do this,

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Speaker 1: could we how would we do this? If we just

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Speaker 1: you know, gun to our head against the wall, had

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Speaker 1: to do this or die. Could we put this together,

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Speaker 1: could we pull it out? What was this before like

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Speaker 1: the Cold War really kicked in, or because you know,

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Speaker 1: we just want the war. I'm putting myself in the time,

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Speaker 1: so we just want the ward second World War. But

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Speaker 1: this is before kind of the Cold War started kind

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Speaker 1: of being a big and one angle in her book

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Speaker 1: is the humanity sort of pulls together and these national

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Speaker 1: boundaries start to be less important because it's a human

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Speaker 1: problem and we're all going to solve it in scientists

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Speaker 1: from the around the world are all working together, and

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Speaker 1: it's sort of inspiring in that way. And I really

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Speaker 1: hope that in the event of a huge disaster that

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Speaker 1: scientists do pull together and work on this. And frankly,

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Speaker 1: I've seen in the news that people are working together

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Speaker 1: in labs right now around the world sharing information about

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Speaker 1: this virus and trying to make a vaccine. And so

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's a little weird to read about it

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Speaker 1: in the book. When I was first reading, I thought

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Speaker 1: this is a little idealistic, But you know, now I

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Speaker 1: kind of see it happening in reality, not on the

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Speaker 1: same scale, of course, that science does respond in this

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Speaker 1: human way, in this personal way to pull together. When

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Speaker 1: you first read it, you thought it was a little

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Speaker 1: kind of sickly sweet, maybe like unrealistic that people would

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Speaker 1: actually pull together. But now, in in such a times,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you're you're looking for signs of the opposite,

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Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I mean I wouldn't have of science.

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Speaker 1: I just thought, like, you know, that's on the positive

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Speaker 1: edge of the potential outcomes, you know, And I admired

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Speaker 1: that sort of idealism. And I have to actually asked

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Speaker 1: her about this in the interview you'll hear her reaction.

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Speaker 1: But that's sort of the angle of it. All right, cool, Well,

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Speaker 1: let's get into the science of it of a sign

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Speaker 1: the signs of a meteor hitting the Earth, and then

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Speaker 1: let's get into the interview with science fiction author Mary

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Speaker 1: Robinette coal But first let's take a quick break. All right.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about Mary Robinette Cole's science fiction novel The

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Speaker 1: Calculating Stars, which is about a meteor hitting the Earth

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties and it just so happens to

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Speaker 1: hit the White House, does it? Does it hit the

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Speaker 1: White House directly? Kind of like in Independence Day, like

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Speaker 1: like there's a shot at the White house and then

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Speaker 1: the meter hits right on it or is it in

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Speaker 1: the suburbs. No, it actually hits in the water in

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Speaker 1: the bay near the coast, and which is much more devastating.

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Speaker 1: And she thought really carefully about the science. I was

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Speaker 1: really impressed, especially for somebody without a science background. She

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Speaker 1: really thought about what would happen if it hit on land,

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Speaker 1: or if it's in the deep water, or if it

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Speaker 1: hit in the shallow water, and you get different outcomes,

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Speaker 1: and actually the most devastating is a shallow water impact.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why she put the meteor there. Why

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Speaker 1: because it creates an explosion and a tsunami at the

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Speaker 1: same time. Yes, and it throws a lot of water

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Speaker 1: into the atmosphere. And I'm guessing that's part of the plot.

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Speaker 1: That is part of the plot, my friend. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about a meteor hitting. And we've talked about

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Speaker 1: meteors hitting and how there's a group at NASA that

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Speaker 1: whose only job it is to look at for meteors

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Speaker 1: hitting the Earth. But this was back in the nineteen fifties, right,

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Speaker 1: because back then we didn't have the we weren't looking

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Speaker 1: out for a meteor's where we we were not. And

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Speaker 1: this is a really fascinating topic, especially to place historically,

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Speaker 1: because you're right in the fifty we weren't looking at all,

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Speaker 1: and we totally could have been blindsided by meteor. Like

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Speaker 1: we might have noticed it, you know, as it approached

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Speaker 1: a few days in advance, because we had telescopes and

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Speaker 1: people were looking. But you basically have to get lucky

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Speaker 1: and spotted. Nobody was on purpose looking for this thing.

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Speaker 1: People were too busy doing the hula hoops and going

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Speaker 1: around in er and going to the diner, and then

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Speaker 1: suddenly it had to be luck for you to look

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Speaker 1: up and see a meteor coming at you. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: we didn't have the sort of telescopes we have now

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Speaker 1: and the budget for science and all that stuff. You know,

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Speaker 1: America had just emerged from World War Two and it's

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Speaker 1: about to enter this era of investing in science and

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Speaker 1: universities and academics. So we just didn't have the technology,

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Speaker 1: and even later decades later, we still hadn't really done it.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't until Shoemaker Levy in the nineties, which is

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Speaker 1: a comment that hit Jupiter with fantastic fireballs the size

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Speaker 1: of the Earth, that people woke up and thought a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of second there could be something out there

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Speaker 1: that's going to hit us, we better look more carefully. Really,

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Speaker 1: that was the first time in the eighties that people

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Speaker 1: started taking this seriously. It was in the nineties, and

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Speaker 1: so really only in the last twenty or thirty years

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Speaker 1: has NASA made a serious, dedicated effort to map the

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Speaker 1: Solar System for anything that might hit us. Interesting, huh.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it was that recent. Yeah, And and

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Speaker 1: that is actually a moment that I got drawn into science.

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Speaker 1: I was working on a science project that summer where

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Speaker 1: we had a super fast, high resolution camera and we

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Speaker 1: saw this comment come into the Solar System and break

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Speaker 1: into pieces and then slamm in the Jupiter one by one.

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Speaker 1: And so we hooked up this awesome camera to a

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Speaker 1: telescope and I watched those things hit Jupiter in real time.

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Speaker 1: It took these high resolution, high speed videos of the impacts.

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Speaker 1: It was pretty exhilarating. Yeah. Really wow, And so you

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Speaker 1: said I'm going into particle physics. At the time, I

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Speaker 1: actually wanted to be an astronomer um. But it turns

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Speaker 1: out that you don't get climactic collisions like this very often,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, a good thing and a bad thing,

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Speaker 1: depending on your angle you like, I mean ten to

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Speaker 1: the twenty three collisions per second. This is not enough

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Speaker 1: one every hundred years anymore. So there's a few angles

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Speaker 1: on this one. Is it's totally true that in the

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Speaker 1: fifties we could have been blindsided by a big meteor, right,

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Speaker 1: totally plausible. Today, however, we have mapped out most of

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Speaker 1: the stuff in the Solar system, so we know where

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Speaker 1: most of the big rocks are. In fact, we're pretty

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Speaker 1: sure we know where all of the big rocks are,

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Speaker 1: all the planet killers or the extinction event rocks. Pretty

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Speaker 1: sure we've seen those. We know where they are. We've

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Speaker 1: seen them for long enough to map out their trajectory

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Speaker 1: and predict where they're going to be in the next

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Speaker 1: couple of hundred years. So we have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of an elite time. But in the book, how big

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Speaker 1: was this mediaor was it like a how big relative

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Speaker 1: to Manhattan? That's that seems to be the standard scale

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Speaker 1: she avoids telling us in the book, And I tried

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Speaker 1: to ask her about this in the interview, and she

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Speaker 1: said that she very purposely didn't put the numbers in.

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Speaker 1: Why is it such a why? Why is it missing. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think she didn't feel confident about her calculations. Remember

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Speaker 1: she's not a science person, and she didn't want to

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Speaker 1: put details in there she wasn't sure of so she

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Speaker 1: left herself some fuzz room. Interesting. But then as an

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Speaker 1: extra wrinkle, she made her character super curious about the

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Speaker 1: size of the meteor that it hit, but never actually

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Speaker 1: told us the answer. They don't know what they don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, you're curious. The character was curious. The author

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Speaker 1: didn't tell anybody, and on Earth you'll never know the

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Speaker 1: answer because there is no answer, all right. So then

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Speaker 1: it hits the Earth and it obliterates DC. So I

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Speaker 1: guess all of our politicians and representatives they're gone. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But I want to say one more thing about the

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Speaker 1: chances of this happening, which is you should feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: that NASA and the people around the world have trapped

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Speaker 1: most of the asteroids which could potentially hit the planet,

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Speaker 1: and they're not going to hit us in the next

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Speaker 1: couple of hundred years. So relax. That's fine, but relaxed.

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Speaker 1: You have more serious things to worry about, like toilet paper.

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Speaker 1: But there is a big question mark because one of

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Speaker 1: the most dangerous things that could hit the Earth is

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Speaker 1: not actually an asteroid. It's a comet like the one

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Speaker 1: that hit Jupiter. And comets move much faster and they're

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Speaker 1: harder to predict because they can have like hundreds or

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Speaker 1: thousands of years long orbits around the Sun. Meaning there

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Speaker 1: could be one out there, really far away we haven't seen,

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Speaker 1: and it could be headed on a collision course towards

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Speaker 1: Earth and we wouldn't get a lot of lead time

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Speaker 1: before it actually hit us. I think we talked about

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Speaker 1: this in a previous episode, But do you do you

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Speaker 1: think maybe there's a young gradsuit in Jupiter with a

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Speaker 1: telescope going, oh, man, I hope that meteor hits there.

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Speaker 1: I've been waiting for this, all right, So the meter

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Speaker 1: hits and it obliterates. At Washington, d C. We have

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Speaker 1: all of our politicians, I guess we're they were all

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Speaker 1: in town at the same time. Yeah, all except for one.

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Speaker 1: So like the you know, one cabinet member ends up

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Speaker 1: being president designated survivor. Yes, exactly interesting and then um so,

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Speaker 1: and then it creates a huge I guess whole and

427
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: where DC used to be or near where DC used

428
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: to be. But you're saying that the real plot twist

429
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: is what happens after the meteor hits. Yeah, because it

430
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: lands in the water, it shoots up a huge amount

431
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: of water into the atmosphere, which becomes vapor and stays

432
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: up there as gas and vapor and basically creates a

433
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 1: new blanket around the Earth. And so then when you

434
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 1: get is a big greenhouse. So that cloud like basically clouds,

435
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: basically a lot of very high altitude clouds, high altitude clouds,

436
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 1: like they turn into ice crystals, I guess, yeah, And

437
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 1: so they stay up in the atmosphere and this water

438
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: vapor actually acts like a big blanket around the Earth,

439
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 1: and so it's transparent to a lot of the Sun's

440
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: energy going in but not going out, and so it

441
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 1: the Earth sort of gradually heats up because of the

442
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: infrared rays can't get out. Is that the idea they

443
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 1: can get in But now some you know transmission when

444
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: you enter the atmosphere and you shift to lower free

445
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: your absorbed and shift to a different frequency. But the

446
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: point is that it creates a greenhouse effect, and then

447
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: the Earth is heating up. And they figure this out

448
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: in the book pretty quickly, like things are gonna cool

449
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: off quickly, and then they're gonna start heating up, and

450
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 1: then the oceans will boil, which would make more more

451
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: of these clouds. Yeah, and as it gets hotter, exactly,

452
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: you get more water vapor released, and you get more

453
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 1: of these clouds. And you know, as a fascinating aside,

454
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 1: there's a really interesting theory that this is exactly what

455
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: happened to Venus. That Venus used to be a lot

456
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 1: like Earth, used water, with water oceans um on the

457
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: surface at you know, basically the same temperature as Earth.

458
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: It must have even looked like Earth from space, but

459
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 1: it might have been hit by a huge meteor which

460
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 1: created this runaway greenhouse effect. Now it's hot and totally uninhabitable.

461
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: And how much time did they have in the book

462
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: before the oceans boiled. Not a whole lot of time.

463
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: You know. It's not the kind of thing that's gonna

464
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 1: happen tomorrow or next week or next year. It's going

465
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: to sort of gradually increase. So in five years it

466
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: will be too hot to live comfortably. End years would

467
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: be very difficult to grow anything. And then as the

468
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: years go on, the oceans will heat up and heat up,

469
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: and so I think, you know, they have order ten years,

470
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: decades kinds of things, but not a lot of time

471
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: to build a huge space infrastructure. Interesting, and so then

472
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 1: what they have to do then is figure out how

473
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: to get off of Earth and colonize like the Moon

474
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: and Mars, what's their planet. That's precisely the plan is

475
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 1: um start building space infrastructure, build rockets, you know, get

476
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: astronauts up there, start practicing on the Moon. But eventually

477
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: the goal is to build colonies on Mars. And what

478
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: would they eat? Yeah, that's my continent. It's it's really

479
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: tricky and you know, if you go to Mars we

480
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: talked about this on the podcast once you have two

481
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: basic options. One is like build a lot of bubbles

482
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: that you can live inside, or try to terraform the

483
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: whole planet. But terraforming is very very hard. Wow. And

484
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: so what did they do well in this first book?

485
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: There don't get there yet, so it's you know, sort

486
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: of series. Oh, it's just a teaser. So the first

487
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: book is just about how this they set up, the

488
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: problem and how what they start doing and the development

489
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: of the space industry and astronaut training. And there's a

490
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: fascinating side story there about how in these times of crisis,

491
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,239
Speaker 1: the opportunities for like large social change, and so the

492
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: main character, who's a woman, pushes herself forward to become

493
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: an astronaut. So she sort of breaks this barrier and

494
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: is the first lady astronaut. Interesting, and so most of

495
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 1: the rest of the book is about how they developed

496
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: this technology and how they slowly build towards taking people

497
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: into space. And then you know, the rest of the trilogy,

498
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 1: which I haven't yet had a chance to read, explores

499
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: in more detail actually colonizing the moon and Mars. Oh man,

500
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: it's kind of sad. That's what it takes. That's what

501
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: it would have taken in the fifties for women to

502
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: become astronauts. Yeah, meteor hitting the water just the right spot. Yeah,

503
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: And it's really well written from that point of view. Also,

504
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: there's a lot of these issues of that are that

505
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: sort of resonate with similar themes and like hidden figures.

506
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 1: You know, people having the skills, wanting to contribute to

507
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: an important problem, but being left on the sidelines because

508
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: of their gender, or because of their race, or because

509
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: of their background. And so from that point of view,

510
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: it's also sort of inspiring in this novel, that they

511
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: overcome that and the humanity in the end, let's our

512
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: best step forward, regardless of their background and how they

513
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: look and contribute to this problem that we were all facing. Interesting,

514
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: So it said the Hollywood pitch would be Hidden Figures

515
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 1: meets Armageddon for deep impact, depending on you know, which

516
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: flavor of asteroid movie like. Yeah, I think they work

517
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: nicely together. I think before Hidden Figures came out, people

518
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: didn't really even understand that the concept of a computer

519
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: in the fifties was a person somebody who's doing computations

520
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: that were necessary to solve these hard problems. Before we

521
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: had minturization of technology that we had these computers you

522
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: could use on board. So I think that actually helps

523
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: people understand sort of the context and the tone the

524
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: cultural situation that this book takes place. Wow, it sounds

525
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: pretty cool, pretty fascinating, pretty a proposed to our times today.

526
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: And so, Daniel, you got a chance to talk to

527
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: Mary Robin and Cole about her book and what she

528
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: was thinking when she wrote it, and about some of

529
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: the signs in it, right, and about puppets and about

530
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: puppets all right, And so here is Daniel's interview with

531
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: Mary Robin and Cole the author of the science fiction

532
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: novel The Calculating Stars. First, thanks very much for joining

533
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: us today on the podcast. Would you mind introducing yourself

534
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: for our listeners. My name is Mary Robin at Coal.

535
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: I write science fiction and fantasy. I'm also an audiobook

536
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: narrator and a professional puppeteer. Well, it's not that often

537
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: you made a science fiction author who's also a puppeteer.

538
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: How did those two careers intersect? Um? They're both all

539
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: about theater of the possible. Um, anything is possible when

540
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: you step into puppetry or science fiction, So they're both also,

541
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: I think, places that tend to naturally explore what if

542
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: an imagination? Well that's wonderful. I'd like our listeners to

543
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: get a chance to get to know you a little bit,

544
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: to hear how you think about science fiction and the universe.

545
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: So let me ask you a couple of sort of

546
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: standard science fiction questions just to get acquainted. And the

547
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: first is a classic question. I'm sure you've heard about

548
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: science fiction philosophy, which is about teleporters. Are you in

549
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: the camp that believes that when you step into a

550
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: Star Trek style teleporter that it actually moves you from

551
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 1: one location to another or in the camp to think

552
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: that it disassembles you, in effect killing you and recreating

553
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 1: a clone of you somewhere else. Um extentially, I think

554
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 1: that it moves you from one point to another mechanically,

555
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: I think it disassembles you and reassembles a clonic effront.

556
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: I see. And so would you be willing, given that understanding,

557
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: to step into a Star Trek style teleporter knowing you'd

558
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: be disassembled? Absolutely? I mean, it's it is a faster

559
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: version of what we do with on a regular basis,

560
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: with our actual bodies. These cells that are in my

561
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: body right now are not the cells that were in

562
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: it seven years ago. For the most part. You know,

563
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: we're constantly replenishing your ship selves and changing things. It's

564
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: a ship of theseus. Question, right, at what point do

565
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: we does it stop being me? And the answer is

566
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: doesn't except to some philosophers who like to argue about things.

567
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: So it's it's the same thing. It's just of sped

568
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: up process. That said, you know, possibility for copying errors again,

569
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: a thing that can happen with a natural body, not

570
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: on the sped up timeline. All right, So then while

571
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: we're talking about science fiction technology. What bit of technology

572
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: that you see in science fiction would you like to

573
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: see become reality? I mean a teleporter. Uh yeah. Um.

574
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: One of these things I will say that is becoming

575
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: incredibly apparent to me with the you know, shelter in place, sparkling, isolation, distance,

576
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: socializing of life, and a pandemic is how much time

577
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: I actually do spend in transit. That's a lot of

578
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: time I'm getting back, so and and people that I

579
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: would like to be able to visit and see. Uh

580
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: and resource allocations suddenly becomes much easier if you don't

581
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: have to if you if you aren't dealing with perishability

582
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: to the same degree. Uh so. So teleportation and time travel,

583
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: those are the two that I would very much like

584
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: to have. All Right, it sounds like it would solve

585
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: some logistical problems for you. Oh yeah, yeah, a lot

586
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: wonderful personally, I'd like to write a book in the

587
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: future and then travel back in time to deliver to

588
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: me here today, like instant book writing. Yeah yeah. So

589
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: then let's talk about your book, The Calculating Stars. First

590
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: of all, congratulations on the success and on all of

591
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: the awards. Very well. Deserved. Thank you very much. That

592
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: was an exciting time. I really enjoyed reading it, And

593
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: something that really resonated with me in the book were

594
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: the sort of scientific moments of June. Like there's a

595
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: scene in the book where they first see these pictures

596
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: from the moon and you can feel the scientists like

597
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: at the edge of their seat, like, I want to

598
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: see it in the photograph, what does that look like?

599
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: And you know, as a scientist, you know, I've had

600
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: a few of those moments in my career when you're

601
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: opening the data from the experiment, when you're asking the

602
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: universe a question and it has to respond like you've

603
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: cornered it and forced it to reveal something. So congrats

604
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: on writing that so effectively. But I have to ask,

605
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: how did you do that? I mean, your background is

606
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: not as a scientist, unless I've misunderstood, No, it's very

607
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,479
Speaker 1: definitely not. How did you capture that so well? Did

608
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: you spend a bunch of time with NASA folks. The

609
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: sense of wonder is the universal thing. You know that,

610
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: and it's the object of the wonder shifts. But having

611
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: that sense of wonder, having that sense of discovery and

612
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: joy from that, that's something that I think that everybody

613
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: can experience and probably has experienced at some point in

614
00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: their life. So for me it's easy to do is

615
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: with seeing the moon because I am not a scientist,

616
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: but I'm a huge space nerd. I remember my mom

617
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: talked me into a college level astronomy class when I

618
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: was in middle school, mostly so that I could go

619
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: and do the astronomy labs, uh and use the telescopes,

620
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: because you know, it was when it was fantastic. It

621
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: is a it's been a lifelong interest. The thing that

622
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: I like about writing science fiction is that it gives

623
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: me a socially acceptable way to indulge my natural curiosity,

624
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 1: so I'm able to ask people. And then the other

625
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: thing that I would say is that in addition to

626
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: bringing my own curiosity and joy and interest in this,

627
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: I read a lot of autobiographies and memoirs and nonfiction

628
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: where there are interviews or discussions with people who are

629
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: scientists and seeing seeing the specific things that trigger their

630
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: point of joy, that the things that they are excited about.

631
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: Like I just got to talk to someone who's a

632
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: geologist specializing in mars um and I asked her, you know,

633
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: would you go to Mars, and she's like the opportunity

634
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: to be able to actually touch the things that I've

635
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: spent my entire career studying. And you could hear her

636
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: just over the phone. Her entire expression just lit up

637
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: at that possibility. And and as a writer, I get

638
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: to create those moments basically by extrapolating from my own

639
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: experience and mapping it onto the points that someone else

640
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: notices and loves. Well, I think you really nailed it.

641
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 1: I was impressed. Thanks. And there's something else to me

642
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: that was very unusual to find in science fiction, but

643
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: I liked in my experience. Science, real science is about wondering,

644
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: and it's about curiosity, of course, but the process of

645
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: it is not always so exciting the every day. It's

646
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: not like I'm discovering a new particle before lunch and

647
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: revealing a secret of the universe, you know, with my coffee.

648
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: It's a slow, painstaking process there. And the thing that

649
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: I really respect about the depiction in your book is

650
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: that you describe that process like they're trying to figure

651
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: out what happened and they don't know anything. Their clue

652
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: is and it takes a while to figure it out,

653
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: And oh, my gosh, this asteroid might be an extinction event.

654
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: You know, the realizations come slowly, they're not always at once.

655
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: You capture that cluelessness, the frustration, the difficulty. So tell

656
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: me why did you decide to make this science process

657
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: so integral to the story. You know, it really drives

658
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: the plot in a way I haven't seen in other

659
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: science fiction. I think that for me, the reason, well,

660
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: there's two reasons. Um. One is that I find it

661
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: inherently interesting. We we do see a lot of stories

662
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: of the loan Savior. But when you anyone who is

663
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: interested in space at all knows that, you know, the

664
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: astronauts are out there getting all of the the credit

665
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: and the glory, but they are supported by this enormous,

666
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: enormous body of people who are all experts in their field,

667
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: doing top level work as a group. Um and and

668
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: at the there at the end of this long, long,

669
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: long problem solving thing. But again, I come like, I'm

670
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: from a theater background, and it's very similar in a

671
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: lot of ways that when you go to see a show,

672
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: when you go to see a movie, there's the movie star,

673
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: there's the lead on stage who gets all of the glory,

674
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: but they're supported by all of these other people, and

675
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: hours and hours and hours of work of human labor

676
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: leading up to that, the rehearsals and all of these things,

677
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: and we tend to not celebrate and valorize all of

678
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: that effort, which which is that's where all of the

679
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: conflict is. Like by the time you get to the

680
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: final product, everything's been solved, you know, and an actual

681
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: base walk when you're watching it, you know, should be

682
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: boring because there should be nothing that goes wrong. Like

683
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: that's that's what you're you're aiming for. My my understanding

684
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: from the people who have done it is that it's

685
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: not actually boring so much as very very focused. But

686
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: but it is digging into the how do we do

687
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: these things and and the iterations that I find interesting.

688
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: I've also always been interested in process, Like I would

689
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: if you offer me the opportunity to see to go

690
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: to watch a rehearsal of a show or watch the

691
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: finished show, I'm going to pick the rehearsal every time. Well,

692
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 1: I think you got the behind the scenes stuff pretty accurate.

693
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I see a lot of science fiction movies

694
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: with the scientists get like one piece of data and

695
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 1: then dot dot dot they have some amazing idea, complete

696
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: with fancy graphics five seconds later and it's just all

697
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: figured out. And to me, that's like where most of

698
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: the science is. It's in that dot dot dot part,

699
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: and it's slow and it's painful, but that's what makes

700
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: it science is the gradual realization. Now, having said that, um, I,

701
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: having having complimented me on that and said that, I

702
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: will also say that the other thing that I do

703
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: in this is I very specifically treat mathematics like a

704
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: magic system. I established what it is that Alma, my

705
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: main character, can do with math. I show you a

706
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: couple of hints of her doing the math. There is

707
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: not a single point on that in that book where

708
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: there is a complete equation, and there is not a

709
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: single point where she goes from start to finish on

710
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: solving a math thing. Because math is not my happy place.

711
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: And basically I figured out that once I, once I

712
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: explained to people that Alma can do math in her

713
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 1: head and she's very good at it, that they would

714
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: just believe me that she could do that that level

715
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: of mathematics in her head, and then I didn't have

716
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: to do it. I just had to know that it

717
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: was possible to be done mathematically, and it turns out

718
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: that you can represent almost any thing mathematically. Well, it

719
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 1: seems like you did some of the math behind the

720
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: statements in the book to make sure they are plausible.

721
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: So I totally bought it. I did not. I know,

722
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: it seems like it. I did not do any of

723
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 1: the math in the book. I cribbed it from Werner

724
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: von Brown's Mars, a Technical Tale, which is he describes

725
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: as a novel, and it is certainly fiction, but it

726
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: also has these tables of appentices in the back. You

727
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 1: wrote it in the nine to try to convince people,

728
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: use fiction to convince people to go to to Mars.

729
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: So I cribbed his there. I think there's more appendixes

730
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: than there is actual novel, so I cribbed from that.

731
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: And then I also had a science consultant, Stephen Grenade,

732
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: who did most of the rest of the math. And

733
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 1: then I had a bunch of other people, but most

734
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: of the actual math and there comes from those two sources.

735
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: And I'm just like we played mad lips basically, I

736
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 1: would say, and then Elma did bracket math bracket, Well,

737
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: I think that we need to examine the brack it

738
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: fancy mass phrase. Bracket. That's wonderful. Hand climate. It's so

739
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: much easier. I wish I could do sions that way.

740
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. So,

741
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: in my reading of the book, the story essentially revolves

742
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: around how humanity responds to a mega crisis, how that

743
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: creates opportunities to upend the social order. Is that a

744
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 1: fair description? So then let me ask you what gave

745
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: you the idea to use this concept like a meteorite

746
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: hitting the Earth. Did you start from that particular science

747
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: concept and then think about what would happen? Or did

748
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: you have this story you wanted to tell and we're

749
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: looking for this sort of mad lib science moment that

750
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: would allow you to tell that story. Um, it's a mix.

751
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: This particular novel was a little odd from my usual

752
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,320
Speaker 1: process in that I had written two stories in this universe.

753
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: One of them is The Lady Astronaut of Mars, which

754
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: is set about forty years along the timeline from where

755
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: Calculating Stars is forty years down the down the line.

756
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: So Calculating Stars is a prequel to this and the

757
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: backstory for that. And in this other short story that

758
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 1: I have called we interrupt this broadcast. Is that a

759
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: meteor head hit d C and that caused everyone to

760
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: get off the planet very fast. So I had this

761
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: this initial thing, but I also had this future of

762
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: international cooperation, which meant that when I went back to

763
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: build out the novel, that that I knew that I

764
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: was building towards a hopeful future. The reason that I

765
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: wanted it to be a meteor strike in the Lady

766
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: Astronaut of Mars versus nuclear bomb or anything like that,

767
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 1: any of the other catastrophic things, was that I wanted

768
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 1: something that was absolutely that that could not be blamed

769
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: on a single person, you know, it couldn't be blamed

770
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: on another country that it was you know, it was

771
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: an act of God, because I think that we reacted

772
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: differently to those, uh than we do to something that

773
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 1: you know, we're a foreign government. If it had been

774
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: someone doing something catastrophic, there would have been you know,

775
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: reprisals and all of those other potential things that would

776
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: have distracted people. But we do react to to natural

777
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: disasters or even like not tre Dame when when that

778
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: caught on fire, there was you know, global morning for

779
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: something that didn't affect the majority of people who were

780
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 1: witnessing it. The wildfires in Australia. The way we react

781
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: to that is very different than the way we react

782
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: to to other things that are equal equal number of

783
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 1: lives lost, sorry more lives austin Syria, but we react

784
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: we react differently to conflict than we do to disaster.

785
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: So I wanted something in the sense that the science

786
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: community sort of pulling together and treating it like a

787
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: humanity wide problem. Yeah, yeah, I mean just looking at

788
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: the way people are different communities are reacting to the

789
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: pandemic that we're in right now. So one of the

790
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: things that I do with the kind of fiction that

791
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: I write, I often I look at historical examples and

792
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 1: patterns from that, and there are there are patterns, one

793
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 1: of which is that in the initial moment of the shock,

794
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: the moment right after everyone does pull together, there's like

795
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: a natural instinct for most people. And they've actually done

796
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: studies on this, but the instinct for most people is

797
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: to help, and then the urge to continue helping depends

798
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: on who is setting the tone at the top, and

799
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: and you you see different patterns for for how that

800
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: plays out. Looking at history. One of the things that

801
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: I think is is really lovely looking at the way

802
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: Italy is handling and they're they're being hit incredibly hard.

803
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: But one of the things that they're doing is, you know,

804
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: they're they're leaning out the windows and singing together. Um.

805
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: And then I believe it's six pm. All of the

806
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: church bell's toll and everyone leans out the window and

807
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: collapse and applaudse the medical professionals who are working, because

808
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: they want them to know how appreciative and supportive they are.

809
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: And that's that's lovely, lovely the United States, I understand

810
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: that our cell sales of guns and Emma are up,

811
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: and we are hoarding toilet paper. Let's talk for a

812
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: minute about the problem that they're solving in your novel.

813
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: A meteorite strikes the Earth and there's a giant impact.

814
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: So how do you rate the chances that humanity is

815
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: actually going to face this kind of scenario? I mean,

816
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: you're asking me to tell you numbers. Well, I mean,

817
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 1: is this something that you think is a reasonable thing

818
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: for us to worry about? Yeah? Yeah, I mean we do, um,

819
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: And at the same time, we don't because when it

820
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: hits us, we won't see it coming. But there's there

821
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: are a lot of earth as had been hit before,

822
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: we will be hit again. It's just it's a matter

823
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 1: of time, you know. We think things hit Earth every

824
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: day of different sizes. It's just a matter of time

825
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: before something hits us. That's a problem. And about the

826
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 1: impact itself, Like in your book, you had the impact

827
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: or strike essentially in the water. You create this enormous

828
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: tsunami and it throws up a lot of stuff into

829
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: the atmosphere, which stimulates climate change. How important was it

830
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: to you to like get the sort of physics right

831
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: of that part. I mean, did you speak to science

832
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: consultants about the details of how it's going to affect

833
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: the hurricane season and impact the greenhouse effect? Yeah, so

834
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: I talked green greenhouse effect the I talked to a

835
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: couple of different people about that. But Purdue University also

836
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: has an impact simulator where you can say, this is

837
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 1: where my thing has hit, this is where I'm standing,

838
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: and it will tell you when the shock wave will hit.

839
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: When you'll you can say, you know what the angle

840
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: of impact, the content size of the meteorite. So it

841
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: was important to me to get it right in principle.

842
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 1: I am also extraordinarily careful to never tell you how

843
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: big that meteor was, or the angle of entry, or

844
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: the speed with which it was going, because there are

845
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: so many variables in how this plays out. We know

846
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: that a water impact behaves differently than a land impact.

847
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: The worst case scenario is a shallow water impact, because

848
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: then you get, which is what I've done, dropped it

849
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: into the bay. My original plan was to drop it

850
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: on d C. And then I talked to an astronomer

851
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: who Lucy and Walkowitz. She's an astronomer at Adler Planetarium,

852
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: and we sat down with coffee and she told me

853
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 1: about the greenhouse effect that can happen, the runaway greenhouse

854
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: effect that can happen with a water strike and a

855
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: shallow water strike. And then she shared with you her

856
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: nightmare scenario scenario. Yeah, all of the all of the

857
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: novels where they save the Earth by driving the meteor

858
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 1: into into the ocean. Um. Some of those, sure, Okay,

859
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: that's gonna be better. Some of those, actually, it's just

860
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: it's just a lingering. It just delays the problem. But basically,

861
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 1: what happens is that when a meteor comes through the atmosphere,

862
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 1: even before it hits the ground, it's tearing a hole

863
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: through the atmosphere because of the speed that it's traveling

864
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: when it hits the ground. When it becomes a meteorite,

865
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: it ejects all of the material it hits through that

866
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: hole into the upper atmosphere. Some of it alt goes

867
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: past that, but depending on size, so it ejects it

868
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: into the upper atmosphere. Now, normally what happens when water

869
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: leaves the Earth is that it precipitates back out, but

870
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: when it gets ejected into the upper atmosphere, it does

871
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: not precipitate out. You'll have um that will but a

872
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: lot of it and it again, it depends on the

873
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: scale of the meteorite that you carefully do not define,

874
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: but a lot of it hangs out and functions as

875
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: the greenhouse gas, and you can get a runaway greenhouse

876
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: effect where the earth heats up, which causes water to evaporate,

877
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: which becomes more of a greenhouse gas, which you know

878
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: this cycle. There's some speculation, well you become Venus, but

879
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: there is speculation that Venus was earthlike until it was

880
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: struck by a meteorite. Yeah. I love that image of

881
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 1: like two earthlike planets. Essentially for billions of years side

882
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: by side, and then Venus destroyed fairly recently on cosmological

883
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: exactly so, and there are other things that can cause

884
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: a runaway greenhouse effect, which is one of the like

885
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: there there are scenarios, there's modeling out there, like it's

886
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: it's a it's not an immediate common case scenario, but

887
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,959
Speaker 1: there there is a scenario in which we don't get

888
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: you know, we have taken no ameliorating efforts to deal

889
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 1: with the green effect, and we do wind up with

890
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: a runaway greenhouse. Like it is possible actually to to

891
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 1: trigger that a runaway greenhouse effect, which terrifying. But again

892
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: that's that's an outlier scenario, but it's it's a possible one. Right. Well,

893
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of the science of these impacts.

894
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 1: I love that. And I was really curious, like, how

895
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 1: big is this thing that hit the earth in your novel?

896
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: What's the angle of entry? And I noticed that your

897
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: character was also very curious, which just stimulated my curiosity

898
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 1: even more so. Frankly, it's a little bit of torture

899
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 1: that you didn't tell us. Well, so I can, um,

900
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: I can tell you if you're going to marry Robin

901
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 1: at coal dot com, there's a Lady Astronaut ft a

902
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 1: Q and on that you can open up the Purdue

903
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: Impact Generator and I tell you the parameters that I

904
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: used to figure out when the shock wave would hit

905
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: Alma and Nathaniel, so you can you can take a

906
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: look at that. I have never run those through a

907
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: climatologist to see whether or not it would um cause

908
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: the runaway greenhouse effect because mostly because when I was

909
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: writing it, I didn't have anyone available to do that.

910
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: I tried to find a couple of different people who

911
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: could do that math for me. Strangely, it's work, and

912
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: it's difficult to find someone. UM that's very specialized, very

913
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: very specialized, and it takes a computer doing a lot

914
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: of calculations. So which is why I decided not to

915
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: include that information in the novel, because I couldn't stand

916
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: behind it. What I try to do with the novels

917
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: is anything that I put in there, I try to

918
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: have as accurate as possible. UM. Anything my character interacts

919
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: with directly, I try to have accurate. If they don't,

920
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: then I'm willing to hand wave past it. UM And

921
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: if it's not a plot point, so I know that

922
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: a meteorite hit that was large enough to cause these effects,

923
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: and I figured out a meteorite that was big enough

924
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 1: to cause parts of some of them. But I did

925
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: not go all the way into figuring out to linking

926
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 1: the two different effects. It's like, I need the runaway

927
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: greenhouse effect and I need them to be able to escape,

928
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: and I need Washington, d c. To have disappeared. So

929
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: I have those two things. I don't know if they

930
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 1: actually played together. We hand, we've passed that. Why Alma

931
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 1: mutters all of those equations instead of saying the entire

932
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: thing out loud, it's magic. Well, I'm impressed by how

933
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: this society responds to the catastrophe in your novel and

934
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: also the efforts to colonize Mars. And I think it's

935
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: especially fascinating that you said it's sort of you know,

936
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: fifty sixty seventy years ago, which makes their efforts to

937
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: get to Mars so much more difficult, But not for

938
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 1: this novel. You must have thought about, like how Mars

939
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: colonization would happen now, How different do you think it

940
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: would be to colonize Mars now as opposed to the

941
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: setting of your novel? Oh, we have so many pieces

942
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: of technology that they don't have. So because because of

943
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: when I have it's set um, they don't have miniaturization

944
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 1: of computers. As soon as you have that, everything changes

945
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: like a lot, a lot the fact, and without miniaturization

946
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: of computers, you you don't get three D printing that

947
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,280
Speaker 1: you you know, you you don't get institution resource development

948
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,479
Speaker 1: through three D printing. We we have that now. So

949
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: the things that we can do, we are our ability

950
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: to do self guided craft are much greater than they

951
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: had in the fifties. So like what I think that

952
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: colonization now or I should say human exploration and settlement

953
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: or human habitation I'm trying not to use the word

954
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: colonization actually, but human habitation of Mars. I think that

955
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: what we'll do is we'll send out you know, the

956
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: of the plans that I've seen, the one that seems

957
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: to make the most sense is to send out ships

958
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: unscrewed ships before to set up an advanced base, uh

959
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,879
Speaker 1: and then and then get feed on the ground. Um.

960
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 1: The thing about having humans on the ground is that

961
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: we can respond more quickly, to be a more responsive

962
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: A good example of this is the insight lander that

963
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 1: has been dealing the past year with a stuck probe,

964
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 1: and the reason that it's taking so long to resolve

965
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: that is because they have to get all of the

966
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: information from Mars, do tests here on Earth, transmit the

967
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: information from that test program it, transmit that to Mars,

968
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 1: get the information back, go do other tests here on

969
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: Earth before they make another decision, and if you have

970
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: someone on the ground, they can go, oh yeah, let

971
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 1: me see, Uh I can I can juggle that without

972
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 1: without breaking anything, because you've got an immediate feedback loop

973
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: of judgment. But with that that delay, you don't you

974
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: don't get that immediate feedback loop, and you don't have

975
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: anyone who can improvise. Humans can improvise. Um, we can.

976
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: You know, we are. We are a multi purpose tool.

977
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: It's super amazing that we live in this moment of

978
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: history where a hundred years ago, if we'd been hit

979
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: by meteor, we basically have no chance of getting off

980
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: the planet. Right. But now we're in ten years or

981
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,800
Speaker 1: fifty years or a hundred years, we're pretty well equipped.

982
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: Now you set your novel right at that point where

983
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: humanity has like a chance. Maybe it's not totally hopeless,

984
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: but it's still really difficult. It's it's a fascinating moment,

985
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: so historically in technological yeah, it's fun. Well, and it's

986
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: interesting to me that you know how early we had

987
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: been thinking about going to the moon in the Mark

988
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: and Mars. It's it's something that I think of I

989
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: think most people think of it in the modern era

990
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 1: as something that kind of spontaneously arose with Sputnik and

991
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:47,919
Speaker 1: the V two rocket, which horrendous destruction in World War

992
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: Two originated because of a rocketry club. Like the technology

993
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: from that is descended from a rocketry club in Germany,

994
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: and they were trying to get off the planet, you know,

995
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 1: they just wanted to get into space for frenzies. Well,

996
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: thank you very much for talking to us. Do you

997
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: want to tell our listeners a little bit about any

998
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: upcoming project? Sure? Um, So the next thing you can

999
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: preorder it. It will be delivered magically to your home

1000
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: so you never have to leave. Is um The Relentless Moon,

1001
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 1: which is the third volume in the Lady Astronauts Universe.

1002
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: You can read it as a standalone, but basically we're

1003
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: on the Moon and people who are pushing back. It

1004
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: takes for people who have read calculating stars and Faded Sky.

1005
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: It takes place concurrently with Faded Sky. Um, so it's

1006
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: what's happening on Earth while the rest of the team

1007
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 1: is well, there's a team on the way to Mars.

1008
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: So it's about the pushback. It's about the terrorists who

1009
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: who decide that they're going to take matters in their

1010
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: own hands and stop things. And I had planned on

1011
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: this being a surprise thing in the novel, but I

1012
00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 1: have a polio outbreak on the moon, so quarantine the Moon.

1013
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff that's hitting home, Like there's

1014
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 1: some research that I've done. It's making me super uncomfortable. Wow, alright,

1015
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: that's a little bit unexpectedly on the news. Yeah, all right,

1016
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 1: thanks very much for answering our nitpicky science questions and

1017
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: for talking to us about the universe that you created

1018
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: in your novel. Thank you so much. All Right, that

1019
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,720
Speaker 1: was pretty interesting, Daniel. She seems like a very optimistic person,

1020
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 1: which is great, which is I think maybe what we

1021
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: need these days. Yeah, for somebody who's thinking about the

1022
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 1: end of the world, it's nice that she's idealistic about

1023
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: how people will come together in a crisis and how

1024
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 1: science might actually save humanity. Yeah, and you guys talked

1025
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: even about how about today, about this pandemic and how

1026
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: science is playing a role in it. Yeah. She had

1027
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,879
Speaker 1: some pretty insightful and interesting thoughts about how people feel

1028
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,399
Speaker 1: about dystopian fiction in these times, and also about how

1029
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: this current pandemic is affecting people and uh, and how

1030
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people are living in very difficult situations

1031
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 1: before this pandemic, and so it sort of makes us

1032
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: all think about the human experience and how people are

1033
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: living today. But I was also really impressed with how

1034
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: detailed she got about about the science. You know, she

1035
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: not only did a great job of modeling the fun

1036
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: science moments and the process of doing science, she like

1037
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: actually ran simulations about what would happen if you hit

1038
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: this kind of media or that kind of media, and

1039
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: where should you land it? And that was pretty impressive.

1040
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: She thought really carefully about the science. Why are you

1041
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 1: so impressed, Daniel? You don't think people out there can

1042
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: do these kinds of things. No, I just I'm just

1043
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: happy when science fiction authors take the science seriously and

1044
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: want to make it real, and and in this book

1045
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: she really accomplishes that. And it's important, especially for her

1046
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: book because the science, the process of the science is

1047
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: so important. And she mentioned in the interview an impact

1048
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: simulator she used on Perdue University's website where you can say,

1049
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: what if this impact hit in this location, how much

1050
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 1: energy would be deposited and how long would it take

1051
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: to get to me? So if you're interested, you can

1052
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: go look up that simulator and run a bunch of

1053
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 1: end of the world scenarios yourself. We all need a

1054
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: little distraction these days. Yes, all right, Well, it sounds

1055
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,280
Speaker 1: like she has a pretty positive view about humanity coming together,

1056
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: which is great. And hopefully a meter will not strike

1057
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 1: us now at this moment in time in d C.

1058
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: Right now, that's right. Let's hope everybody out there stays

1059
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 1: safe and healthy. Um, but it's fun to think about

1060
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: other universes where humans are facing more difficult problems and

1061
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: solving them. Yea, And to get us to think about

1062
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: all the difficulties that other people are. You're having an

1063
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: our universe, so stay safe, but I also help out

1064
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 1: your neighbor and look out for each other. That's right.

1065
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying this series about the science fiction

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00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: universes created by these authors, let us know and send

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Speaker 1: us a message about the books you'd like us to

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Speaker 1: talk about. We hope you enjoyed that, see you next time.

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Speaker 1: If you still have a question after listening to all

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00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 1: these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to

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00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter,

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00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge That's one Word, or

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Speaker 1: email us at Feedback at Daniel and Jorge dot com.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of I Heart Radio. For

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00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: more podcast from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah