WEBVTT - The Wilderness of Mirrors

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen seventy four, just months after the Watergate scandal

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<v Speaker 1>ended with Richard Nixon's resignation, another man who for decades

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<v Speaker 1>had also helped shape America's place in the world was

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<v Speaker 1>quietly dismissed from his job. William Colby, who was then

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<v Speaker 1>the head of the CIA, fired spymaster James Jesus Angleton.

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<v Speaker 2>Colby made the decision after a front page expose in

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<v Speaker 2>The New York Times revealed that Angleton was running a

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<v Speaker 2>massive domestic spying program. The CIA was spying on ten

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<v Speaker 2>thousand Americans involved in the anti war movement and other

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<v Speaker 2>dissident groups.

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<v Speaker 1>Colby had been trying to get rid of Angleton for years,

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<v Speaker 1>but Angleton was a bit of a legend. He was

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<v Speaker 1>the head of counterintelligence for the CIA, and for better

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<v Speaker 1>or for worse, he was one of the agency's founding fathers.

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<v Speaker 1>Journalists who are hoping to be the next Woodward and

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<v Speaker 1>Bernstein were all over this story. They wanted to know why.

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<v Speaker 1>The buzz around Angleton's firing prompted the formation of a

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<v Speaker 1>special Senate committee headed up by Idaho Senator Frank Church,

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<v Speaker 1>and for the first time in the CIA's history, their

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<v Speaker 1>dirty laundry was about to be exposed.

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<v Speaker 2>The Church Committee published its final report in April of

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy six. It revealed a trove of secret abuses

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<v Speaker 2>at the hands of the CIA, NSA, FBI, and the IRS.

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<v Speaker 2>Before and after the Cold War. These agencies were involved

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<v Speaker 2>in global assassination conspiracies, infiltrating news programs, and conducting mind

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<v Speaker 2>control experiments through programs like mk Ultra. The Committee's revelations

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<v Speaker 2>shocked Americans.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll get into all of that over the next few episodes,

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<v Speaker 1>but for now, what's important understand is that in the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixties, James Jesus Angleton had control over a network

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<v Speaker 1>of spies, informants, and double agents that reached into the

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<v Speaker 1>farthest corners of the globe, and the events that would

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<v Speaker 1>be the cause of his dismissal were just getting underway.

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<v Speaker 2>This is who killed JFK. Sixty years later, What can

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<v Speaker 2>we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history?

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<v Speaker 2>And why does it still matter today? I'm your host,

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<v Speaker 2>Solidad O'Brien.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the counterintelligence world of James Jesus Angleton, a

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<v Speaker 1>world he referred to as the wilderness of mirrors.

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<v Speaker 2>The term wilderness of mirrors points to the tactic of

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<v Speaker 2>deception and disinformation that both the CIA and the KGB

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<v Speaker 2>used against each other during the Cold War.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a world where it's virtually impossible to tell what

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<v Speaker 1>his reality and what is merely a reflection of reality,

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<v Speaker 1>and our journey into the wilderness starts with Lee Harvey Oswald.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's recap. Oswald was a disenchanted young man who

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<v Speaker 1>found himself in the psychological study run by a doctor

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<v Speaker 1>with connections to the CIA. At age seventeen, he enlisted

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<v Speaker 1>in the Marines and was shipped to Japan, where he

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<v Speaker 1>received a security clearance to work as a radar operator

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<v Speaker 1>on U two spyplanes. Upon returning to the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>he spent time at a base in California and another

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<v Speaker 1>base in Nagshead, North Carolina, which focused on special operations. Then,

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<v Speaker 1>after learning Russian, he defected to the Soviet Union. Two

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<v Speaker 1>years later, he returned to the United States with his

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<v Speaker 1>Russian wife and baby, and was welcomed back with open arms.

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<v Speaker 1>He was never questioned why.

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<v Speaker 2>Well Oswald didn't actually renown his US citizenship when he

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<v Speaker 2>was in Russia, even though he tried at the embassy,

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<v Speaker 2>So maybe they didn't take him all that seriously. Maybe

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<v Speaker 2>they saw him and thought, eh, that guy. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>he's all bark and no bite. There's this philosophical theory

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<v Speaker 2>I know, you know, called Ockham's razor, right, that says

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<v Speaker 2>the simplest answer is often the correct one. So if

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<v Speaker 2>you apply that here, what if he's just a communist sympathizer.

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<v Speaker 2>What if he just defected, He just came back to

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<v Speaker 2>the US and sort of slipped under the radar.

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<v Speaker 1>It's possible, but don't forget. We are at the height

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<v Speaker 1>of the Cold War. The fear of nuclear annihilation is

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<v Speaker 1>hanging over our heads. Now. If you are willing to

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<v Speaker 1>enter that wilderness of mirrors with me, by the time

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<v Speaker 1>we exit, I think things will become clear. But I

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<v Speaker 1>have to warn you. Before things become clear, they will

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<v Speaker 1>become confusing. And in fact, confusion is the point. So

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<v Speaker 1>why don't we try to embrace the confusion and step

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<v Speaker 1>into the wilderness of mirrors. During World War II, America

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<v Speaker 1>had an intelligence gathering agency called the OSS the Office

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<v Speaker 1>of Strategic Services. The information that they were able to

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<v Speaker 1>gather help us win the war. The OSS was officially

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<v Speaker 1>disbanded nineteen forty five, but certain factions of their work continued.

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<v Speaker 1>America's biggest enemy at the time was the Soviet Union,

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<v Speaker 1>and for years they had been honing their skills of

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<v Speaker 1>covert intelligence operations, so in an effort to play catchup,

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<v Speaker 1>the OSS was revamped into a full blown intelligence gathering

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<v Speaker 1>agency in nineteen forty seven. It was called the CIA.

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<v Speaker 1>In the wake of its creation, President Harry Truman drafted

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<v Speaker 1>Directive ten slash two, which was a top secret memo

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<v Speaker 1>that gave the CIA the green light to engage in

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<v Speaker 1>different forms of warfare, including propaganda, sabotage, and deadly covert

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<v Speaker 1>operations against anyone it deemed quote hostile to the United States.

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<v Speaker 1>I think of the ten slash two memo as marching

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<v Speaker 1>orders into the dark arts of spycraft. And to protect

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<v Speaker 1>the president, the CIA developed a practice called plausible deniability.

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<v Speaker 1>If the President wasn't told about a particular secret plan,

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<v Speaker 1>then he could plausibly deny having anything to do with it.

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<v Speaker 1>Plausible deniability empowered the CIA to act without presidential approval.

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<v Speaker 1>They would carry out missions with no awareness outside the agency.

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<v Speaker 1>Accountability was intentionally clouded. Solidad Could you read this from me?

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<v Speaker 2>The better you lied, and the more you betrayed, the

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<v Speaker 2>more likely you would be promoted. I did things that

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<v Speaker 2>in looking back on my life, I regret, but I

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<v Speaker 2>was part of it and I loved in it.

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<v Speaker 1>That is a quote from James Angleton. Now, if you

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<v Speaker 1>visualize a creepy secret agent from the fifties and sixties,

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<v Speaker 1>you will see Angleton.

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<v Speaker 2>I can confirm that pictures of him show a lanky

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<v Speaker 2>guy with thick glasses, hollow cheekbones, and translucent looking skin.

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<v Speaker 1>Angleton could do virtually anything he wanted under the name

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<v Speaker 1>of protecting America.

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<v Speaker 3>He was the Chief of Counterintelligence, so he was in

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<v Speaker 3>charge of defending the CIA. But that position required him

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<v Speaker 3>enabled him to do anything, and so there was no

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<v Speaker 3>check on his power whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 2>That's our old friend. Jefferson Morley, creator of jfkfax dot Org.

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<v Speaker 2>Morley wrote the book on Angleton called The Ghost. Why

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<v Speaker 2>do you call the book the Ghost?

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<v Speaker 3>Because he was this invisible presence in the US government

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<v Speaker 3>that nobody could see. I mean, I think President Kennedy

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<v Speaker 3>knew who Jim Angleton was, but not many people in

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<v Speaker 3>the US government knew what Angleton did.

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<v Speaker 2>Describe him, he was very.

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<v Speaker 3>Charismatic, intellectually. He had been an English major at Yale

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<v Speaker 3>with a literary bent.

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<v Speaker 1>He was known as the Poet's spy. His friend, the

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<v Speaker 1>poet E. E. Cummings, said the following about Angleton, quote,

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<v Speaker 1>what a miracle of momentous complexity is the poet?

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<v Speaker 3>He was the spy. As intellectual, he was a very

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<v Speaker 3>creative thinker. People who knew him in his prime were

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<v Speaker 3>very impressed and regarded him as really something of a genius.

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<v Speaker 3>Camera intelligence has been described as organized paranoia. To catch spies,

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<v Speaker 3>you have to be very suspicious of everybody.

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<v Speaker 1>He referred to his work as the wilderness of mirrors,

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<v Speaker 1>a phrase that he borrowed from TS. Eliot. There was information, disinformation,

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<v Speaker 1>secret agents, and double agents, anything to deceive the enemy,

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<v Speaker 1>hide the CIA's tracks, and create confusion. Confusion was his

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<v Speaker 1>weapon of choice, and that confusion came into play when

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<v Speaker 1>Oswald returned to the United States. Oswald, his Soviet wife Marina,

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<v Speaker 1>and their infant child June. They land on the docks

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<v Speaker 1>of Hoboken, New Jersey, on June thirteenth, nineteen sixty two.

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<v Speaker 1>There they're met by a man named spaz Rakin Racn

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<v Speaker 1>was a representative of the Traveler's Aid Society. Now I

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<v Speaker 1>want you to take a look at this through the

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<v Speaker 1>lens of James Angleton. Okay, spas Racan was not only

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<v Speaker 1>a representative of the Traveler's Aid Society, he was also

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<v Speaker 1>an official of the Anti Bolshevik Nations, a group with

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<v Speaker 1>deep ties to US intelligence, a fact that was totally

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<v Speaker 1>ignored by the Warrant Commission. Now understand that the Traveler's

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<v Speaker 1>Aid Society wasn't there to massage Oswald's feet after his

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<v Speaker 1>long trip. It was an anti communist organization that had

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<v Speaker 1>direct ties to the CIA.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, so he's pretty much welcome backed by the CIA.

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<v Speaker 1>Right and again, if you look at this through Angleton's eyes,

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<v Speaker 1>Reken is the perfect person to meet Oswald in order

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure that his re entry into America goes smoothly.

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<v Speaker 1>Rakean was somebody they could trust and couldn't be tied

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<v Speaker 1>directly back to them. So Recn helps the Oswalds get

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<v Speaker 1>through customs and immigration, then sends them on their way

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<v Speaker 1>to Fort Worth, Texas. In Fort Worth, Oswald meets a

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<v Speaker 1>man named George de Moorenshield. Now I'm guessing that name

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't ring any bells.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the first time you're hearing the name George

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<v Speaker 2>de Moornshield. He's key when we consider the movements of

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<v Speaker 2>Lee Harvey Oswald on his return to the United States.

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<v Speaker 3>George de Moornscheld was a Russian speaker who worked for

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<v Speaker 3>oil companies looking for petroleum all over the world.

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<v Speaker 2>That's Jefferson Morley again.

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<v Speaker 3>And so in nineteen sixty two he was living in

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<v Speaker 3>Dallas and he heard of this man who had returned

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<v Speaker 3>from the Soviet Union, Lee Harvey Oswald. So they become

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<v Speaker 3>good friends.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't you think it's odd that a wealthy, worldly, aerodype

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<v Speaker 1>and much older man would become good friends with Lee

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<v Speaker 1>Harvey Oswald.

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<v Speaker 2>De Moornshield told the journalist Edward Epstein, quote, somebody gave

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<v Speaker 2>me Lee's address, and one afternoon I drove to Fort Worth,

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<v Speaker 2>about thirty miles from Dallas.

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<v Speaker 4>De Moorinshield told Epstein that a CIA operative J. Walton

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<v Speaker 4>Moore was the person who gave him the address of

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<v Speaker 4>Lee Harvey Oswald and suggested that he meet him, that

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<v Speaker 4>he would be doing the CIA a favor.

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<v Speaker 2>De Moornshield told Epstein that J. Walton Moore asked him

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<v Speaker 2>to find out about Oswald's time in the Soviet Union.

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<v Speaker 1>And for essentially babysitting, Oswald de Moornshield was awarded a

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<v Speaker 1>mineral contract from the Haitian government for three hundred thousand dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>De Moornshield told Epstein that he assumed this was because

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<v Speaker 2>of the help De Moornshield had given to the CIA.

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<v Speaker 1>When you think of people who work for the CIA,

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<v Speaker 1>you think of people who work directly with the agency.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's not that simple. There are also people who are,

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<v Speaker 1>for lack of a better term, CIA adjacent. They're assets,

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<v Speaker 1>and these assets will do favors for the CIA, and

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes they expect favors in return.

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<v Speaker 2>So that would describe George de Moornshield, Yeah, right.

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<v Speaker 1>And as part of his babysitting duties, De Moorinshield introduces

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<v Speaker 1>the Oswalts to a friend of his. This is a

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<v Speaker 1>woman named Ruth Paine, who was supposedly interested in learning Russian.

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<v Speaker 2>Hmm, that's convenient. Dick Russell interviewed Ruth Payne in nineteen seventy.

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<v Speaker 4>The way that you first met the Oswalts was at

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<v Speaker 4>that party.

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<v Speaker 5>It was at private party.

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<v Speaker 4>What was it about the Oswalts that you liked?

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<v Speaker 5>I was especially interested in Marina who's native in Russian,

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<v Speaker 5>and I didn't really talk to her much that evening,

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<v Speaker 5>but I did get the ads and visit it then

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<v Speaker 5>at their apartment in.

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<v Speaker 4>Nowas it's important to know who Ruth pain is. Her

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<v Speaker 4>sister was a CIA operative, although that was hidden and

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<v Speaker 4>then denied for decades. Her father was employed by the

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<v Speaker 4>United States Agency for International Development.

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<v Speaker 2>For decades, there's been suspicion that the US Agency for

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<v Speaker 2>International Development was a Cold War policy tool created in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty one to implement CIA operations around the world.

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<v Speaker 4>Ruth Payne's husband and other family members had intelligence connections

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<v Speaker 4>as well. In nineteen sixty seven, when the District Attorney

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<v Speaker 4>for New Orleans, Jim Garrison, tried a case that questioned

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<v Speaker 4>the Warren Commission's findings, he tried to get the Pains

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<v Speaker 4>tax returns and he was told they were classified. Another

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<v Speaker 4>little tidbit, Ruth's best friend, Mary Bancroft, was Alan Dulles's mistress.

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<v Speaker 1>Because of her friendship with the Oswalts, Ruth Payne was

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<v Speaker 1>a key witness for the Warren Commission. In her testimony,

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<v Speaker 1>she was asked by Alan Dulles what she suspected Oswald's

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<v Speaker 1>motive might have been. She said that she always felt

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<v Speaker 1>that Oswald saw himself as a small person and that

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<v Speaker 1>he wanted to be greater and to be noticed. George

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<v Speaker 1>de Moornshield also testified to the Warren Commission and left

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<v Speaker 1>out many of the key details that he would share

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<v Speaker 1>later on in his life, details that may have caused

0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 1>severe damage to the lone Gunman case that the Warren

0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:55.960
<v Speaker 1>Commission was trying to build.

0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:59.720
<v Speaker 4>And during the time of his testimony and I w

0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.360
<v Speaker 4>miss saw De Moorenshield having private lunches with Alan Dulles.

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.800
<v Speaker 2>It's like Alan Dulles is everywhere.

0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.840
<v Speaker 1>Yes, he was controlling the flow of information in and

0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.280
<v Speaker 1>out of the Warren Commission. So it should come as

0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.840
<v Speaker 1>no surprise that the Warren Report went out of its

0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.360
<v Speaker 1>way to conclude that the Moornshield had no connection to

0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 1>the CIA. But three years later, in nineteen sixty seven,

0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.560
<v Speaker 1>New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison interviewed De Moornshield and

0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.760
<v Speaker 1>discovered that not only was he connected to the CIA,

0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.040
<v Speaker 1>he was hired by them to look after Oswald, and

0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:40.840
<v Speaker 1>after talking with Garrison, De Moornshield started to change his

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:41.880
<v Speaker 1>public stance.

0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.440
<v Speaker 3>What's interesting about de Moornschield is that he testified to

0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:51.400
<v Speaker 3>the Warren Commission and really was influential in depicting Oswald

0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 3>as a man who could have killed President Kennedy. De

0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.160
<v Speaker 3>Morenschild came to regret that later in life, and he

0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.000
<v Speaker 3>believed that he was mistaken and that Oswald did not.

0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.360
<v Speaker 1>Kill the President. Demornschild wrote about that in his book,

0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 1>which was titled Lee Harvey Oswald As I Knew Him.

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.240
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the first books written by someone who

0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.720
<v Speaker 2>had a personal relationship with Oswald.

0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:18.000
<v Speaker 1>After the book was published, De Mornshield started talking to

0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:18.600
<v Speaker 1>the press.

0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 4>I interviewed George de Mornshield twice in nineteen seventy six,

0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:25.120
<v Speaker 4>and I remember he said, of course, we know it

0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.160
<v Speaker 4>was a vast conspiracy, and his wife tried to shut

0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.360
<v Speaker 4>him up, and then he stood up started walking around

0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.960
<v Speaker 4>the room, saying, it's defiling a corpse. It's defiling a corpse.

0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.280
<v Speaker 4>Oswald had nothing to do with it. It was remarkable

0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.360
<v Speaker 4>to see him like this. He was really upset. He

0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.920
<v Speaker 4>was revealing something huge, and I wasn't the only person.

0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:42.720
<v Speaker 1>He said that too.

0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:47.360
<v Speaker 3>He was talking to Edward Epstein, a journalist who had

0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:49.200
<v Speaker 3>written about the Kennedy assassination.

0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:50.640
<v Speaker 2>That's Jefferson Morley.

0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.120
<v Speaker 3>Again, de morn Schild said that he was quite certain

0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.520
<v Speaker 3>Oswald did not kill the president and that he was

0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 3>indeed what he said, he was a patsy.

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.920
<v Speaker 1>He also said, quote, I would never have contacted Oswald

0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.960
<v Speaker 1>in a million years if Moore had not sanctioned it.

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.119
<v Speaker 2>That's j Walton Moore, his CIA contact.

0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.360
<v Speaker 1>Right. He said he wouldn't have reached out to befriend

0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Oswald unless he was instructed to. Epstein's interview with demorn

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.480
<v Speaker 1>Shield happened fourteen years after Kennedy's assassination, and it was

0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.160
<v Speaker 1>the final interview that demorn Shield would ever give.

0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.640
<v Speaker 2>So let's set the stage because with all of these

0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:43.560
<v Speaker 2>moving parts, it gets very confusing.

0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:48.120
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So the first few months of nineteen sixty three

0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.359
<v Speaker 1>are very tough for Oswald.

0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.640
<v Speaker 3>So he returns from the Soviet Union, he gets job,

0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.200
<v Speaker 3>he loses a job, having trouble with his wife, and

0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:01.119
<v Speaker 3>in April nineteen sixty three, he leaves Dallas and he

0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.720
<v Speaker 3>decides to go to New Orleans, where he had grown up.

0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:06.919
<v Speaker 1>In New Orleans, he gets a job at a place

0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.320
<v Speaker 1>called the Riley Coffee Company.

0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.640
<v Speaker 4>Which is owned by William Riley, a supporter of CIA

0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:16.679
<v Speaker 4>efforts against Castro. Documents show us that Riley had a

0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.000
<v Speaker 4>relationship with the CIA for years.

0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.800
<v Speaker 1>So we're seeing the same pattern, the same kind of

0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 1>thing we saw with Demor and Shield. In Dallas. Oswald

0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.520
<v Speaker 1>is secretly introduced to another CIA connected guy whose Riley

0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:36.360
<v Speaker 1>Coffee company is located right next to the local FBI, CIA, Naval, Intelligence,

0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.879
<v Speaker 1>and Secret Service offices. And it's here in New Orleans

0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.800
<v Speaker 1>where Oswald is about to get sheep dipped.

0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Sheep DiPT What does that mean?

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Sheep DiPT is a term of art in the intelligence

0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:54.080
<v Speaker 1>world that means coding someone to give them CIA operative status.

0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:58.479
<v Speaker 1>It's a tactic of deception. It gives the appearance that

0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:02.080
<v Speaker 1>a person is some one other than who he really is.

0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:04.760
<v Speaker 2>So how would that even work?

0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.800
<v Speaker 1>By using assets of the agency to build a narrative

0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:13.240
<v Speaker 1>around that person, you're carefully led into a new identity

0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:17.200
<v Speaker 1>and it's all documented. You yourself, may not know where

0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.800
<v Speaker 1>this new identity will lead, but when it's finished, you'll

0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.720
<v Speaker 1>have the bona fides of someone to appear completely legitimate.

0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.320
<v Speaker 1>And the plan for Oswald in New Orleans was to

0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.639
<v Speaker 1>sheep dip him in order to make him look like

0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:33.720
<v Speaker 1>he was a pro Castro communist.

0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.719
<v Speaker 2>Couldn't he just be a pro Castro communist.

0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.719
<v Speaker 1>If you think that the poet spy has succeeded.

0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.680
<v Speaker 2>The poet spy. If you'll remember, is James Jesus Angleton,

0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:51.720
<v Speaker 2>head of CIA Counterintelligence, and the Wilderness of Mirrors were in.

0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:54.520
<v Speaker 2>It's the world he created.

0:19:55.200 --> 0:20:00.119
<v Speaker 1>We know. Angleton's tactics employ CIA adjacent people, asset s

0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.600
<v Speaker 1>that have enough distance from the agency that they can

0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.200
<v Speaker 1>deny knowing them. Then send these people to look after

0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.280
<v Speaker 1>someone the agency is interested in, pick them up at

0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.640
<v Speaker 1>the airport, help them get a job, to manipulate this

0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:17.440
<v Speaker 1>person they're interested in without being traced back to what end.

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Angleton was obsessed with Cuba. He wanted to take down Castro,

0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.160
<v Speaker 1>and this was not in line with the president's agenda.

0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:30.080
<v Speaker 2>After the Cuban missile crisis, if you remember, Kennedy realized

0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.480
<v Speaker 2>taking a hard line against Cuba could lead to an

0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.840
<v Speaker 2>all out nuclear war, so he started back channel communications

0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.359
<v Speaker 2>with Khrushchev and Castro to find a packed peace.

0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.879
<v Speaker 4>But Angleton didn't see that as an obstacle. He said,

0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:49.320
<v Speaker 4>and I am quoting here, it is inconceivable that a

0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.760
<v Speaker 4>secret intelligence arm of the government has to comply with

0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.920
<v Speaker 4>all the overt orders of the government. He thought it

0:20:56.080 --> 0:20:59.800
<v Speaker 4>completely fair game that the CIA, the secret intelligence armor

0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.760
<v Speaker 4>of them the United States, could have their own set

0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:04.240
<v Speaker 4>of rules and directives.

0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:09.159
<v Speaker 1>So, while Kennedy was trying to forge a path to peace,

0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:13.720
<v Speaker 1>the CIA was conducting major anti Castro operations out of

0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.840
<v Speaker 1>New Orleans and Miami. They sent boats to harassed Cuban ships.

0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.600
<v Speaker 1>They ran guns to exile groups. They even had training

0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.680
<v Speaker 1>camps where they were helping the exiles prepare to mount

0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:29.400
<v Speaker 1>another invasion. Bill Harvey, the CIA agent who had been

0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:33.119
<v Speaker 1>demoted and sent to Rome after the Cuban missile crisis,

0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:34.800
<v Speaker 1>played a big part in all of this.

0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:40.560
<v Speaker 4>Bill Harvey created and led something called ZR Rifle. This

0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:44.640
<v Speaker 4>was a CIA program designed to assassinate foreign leaders.

0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:48.240
<v Speaker 2>It wouldn't be until the nineteen eighties that we learned

0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.760
<v Speaker 2>how the CIA had a hand in overthrowing governments in

0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:57.720
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen fifties and sixties, including Iran, Chile, the Dominican Republic, Guatemala,

0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.639
<v Speaker 2>the Congo. This often inclined gluted the assassination of the

0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.360
<v Speaker 2>leader in charge. This is some of the dirty laundry

0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:06.360
<v Speaker 2>we mentioned earlier.

0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 1>The CIA wanted to use that same force in an

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:14.520
<v Speaker 1>attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro, and Bill Harvey was at

0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.680
<v Speaker 1>the head of it. To understand Harvey's stance toward Cuba,

0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.560
<v Speaker 1>read a segment of this seventeen page memo that he

0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:23.600
<v Speaker 1>sent to Dick Helms, who was running covert operations for

0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:24.919
<v Speaker 1>the CIA at the time.

0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.760
<v Speaker 2>It goes quote the assurance of no invasion and no

0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:33.440
<v Speaker 2>support of invasion will in effect constitute giving Castro and

0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.680
<v Speaker 2>his regime a certain degree of sanctuary.

0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:38.600
<v Speaker 1>His belief was that every day that passed that we

0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:42.520
<v Speaker 1>didn't try to invade Cuba would make Castro grow stronger. Essentially,

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.480
<v Speaker 1>he's saying, if you're not trying to kill him, you're

0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:49.920
<v Speaker 1>emboldening him. And in many people's minds, the one emboldening

0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.280
<v Speaker 1>him the most was President Kennedy.

0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.560
<v Speaker 2>A declassified document reveals that Bill Harvey sent his memo

0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:01.879
<v Speaker 2>to the head of the CIA in November nineteen sixty two.

0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:06.040
<v Speaker 4>Six months later, in May of nineteen sixty three, Angleton

0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.800
<v Speaker 4>published a twenty seven page paper of his own on

0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:09.879
<v Speaker 4>the topic of Cuba.

0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:13.280
<v Speaker 2>This was just about seven months before the assassination of

0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:17.880
<v Speaker 2>President Kennedy and within weeks of Oswald's decision to move

0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:18.720
<v Speaker 2>to New Orleans.

0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:24.320
<v Speaker 4>Engleton's paper was called Cuban Control and Action Capabilities. And

0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:28.200
<v Speaker 4>it's important to understand who received this paper. The Pentagon,

0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:33.800
<v Speaker 4>the CIA, the NSSA, the intelligence chiefs of the State Department, Army, Navy,

0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:36.480
<v Speaker 4>and Air Force, and the Justice Department.

0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:39.120
<v Speaker 1>And guess who didn't receive this paper.

0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:41.200
<v Speaker 2>The President Bingo.

0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.159
<v Speaker 4>Angleton didn't send it to the White House, to his

0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:49.119
<v Speaker 4>National Security Council, or to the president's brother, Attorney General

0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:53.440
<v Speaker 4>Robert Kennedy. And there's one thing that becomes particularly interesting

0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:54.280
<v Speaker 4>in hindsight.

0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:57.960
<v Speaker 3>The fair Play for Cuba Committee, The fair Play for

0:23:58.040 --> 0:23:58.840
<v Speaker 3>Cuba Committee is.

0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:00.840
<v Speaker 1>The fair Play for Cuban Committee.

0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:04.560
<v Speaker 2>If you're taking notes, put a big red circle around

0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:06.600
<v Speaker 2>the fair Play for Cuba Committee.

0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:09.399
<v Speaker 1>The fair Play for Cuba Committee was a real organization.

0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:12.800
<v Speaker 1>They had chapters around the country with hundreds of members.

0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:17.959
<v Speaker 1>Their goal was to provide grassroots support for Cuba in America.

0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:21.200
<v Speaker 4>In Angleton's eyes, members of the fair Play for Cuba

0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:25.199
<v Speaker 4>Committee were pro castro agents in the United States. This

0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:29.640
<v Speaker 4>is exactly what Angleton spent his career trying to protect

0:24:29.640 --> 0:24:33.000
<v Speaker 4>America against and so in order to better understand the

0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:39.520
<v Speaker 4>organization and hopefully stop them, he needed information, and Oswald.

0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:41.600
<v Speaker 1>Was about to be sent right into the thick of it.

0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:52.800
<v Speaker 1>Oswald arrived in New Orleans at almost the exact time

0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:56.520
<v Speaker 1>that Angleton sent out his Cuban paper. And one of

0:24:56.560 --> 0:25:00.439
<v Speaker 1>the first things that Oswald does is form a local

0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:03.520
<v Speaker 1>chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. And guess

0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:06.800
<v Speaker 1>how many members there were in this chapter one hundred

0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:11.960
<v Speaker 1>You're close one just one, just Oswald, nobody else.

0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:15.639
<v Speaker 6>Oswald's behavior with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee is

0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 6>kind of strange. In his time in New Orleans, he

0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:22.560
<v Speaker 6>doesn't spend any time with people who support Gastro.

0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:26.640
<v Speaker 1>This is Oswald being sheep dipped. A narrative is being

0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:27.840
<v Speaker 1>created around him.

0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:30.359
<v Speaker 2>And what does Oswald know at this point?

0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:33.760
<v Speaker 1>Probably very little. I mean, he knows he's connected to

0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:37.960
<v Speaker 1>an intelligence community for some purpose. But I would bet

0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:40.919
<v Speaker 1>anything that if Lee Harvey Oswald were alive today and

0:25:40.960 --> 0:25:43.639
<v Speaker 1>you asked him that at that moment, what did he

0:25:43.720 --> 0:25:46.160
<v Speaker 1>think he was part of? I don't think he would

0:25:46.160 --> 0:25:46.520
<v Speaker 1>even know.

0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:49.800
<v Speaker 4>After he started his chapter of the Fair Play for

0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:53.560
<v Speaker 4>Cuba Committee, Oswald visited a man named Carlos spring Gear,

0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:58.080
<v Speaker 4>who ran an anti Castro group called the Cuban Student Directorate.

0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:03.120
<v Speaker 4>Memos have served the show this group was organized and

0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:05.720
<v Speaker 4>funded by the CIA.

0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:08.720
<v Speaker 2>What did Oswald want with him?

0:26:09.200 --> 0:26:12.960
<v Speaker 4>Oswald told Carlos Springier that he was an ex marine

0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:17.280
<v Speaker 4>who despised communism and was willing to help train Cuban exiles.

0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:21.520
<v Speaker 2>So wait a minute, Oswald is starting the pro Castro

0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:25.240
<v Speaker 2>fair Play for Cuba Committee and at the same time

0:26:25.280 --> 0:26:30.399
<v Speaker 2>he's offering help in training anti Castro exiles. Didn't you

0:26:30.560 --> 0:26:32.560
<v Speaker 2>say the New Orleans branch of the fair Play for

0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:35.200
<v Speaker 2>Cuba Committee was funded by the CIA?

0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:39.240
<v Speaker 1>I did, But remember, so was Carlos Bringier's student group.

0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:42.280
<v Speaker 1>And his group was not only funded by the CIA,

0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:48.240
<v Speaker 1>it was run by George Joanedes. Remember him. Joann Edes

0:26:48.400 --> 0:26:53.560
<v Speaker 1>was the former CIA agent who sabotaged the investigation led

0:26:53.600 --> 0:26:55.960
<v Speaker 1>by the House Select Committee on Assassinations.

0:26:56.560 --> 0:27:00.399
<v Speaker 4>After meeting with Brgier, Oswald goes to a very anti

0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:04.480
<v Speaker 4>Castro area of New Orleans and starts handing out leaflets

0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:06.520
<v Speaker 4>for the fair Play for Cuba Committee.

0:27:07.040 --> 0:27:09.600
<v Speaker 1>There are photos of this. In some of those photos

0:27:09.640 --> 0:27:13.399
<v Speaker 1>you can actually see a known CIA operative in the background.

0:27:13.760 --> 0:27:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Here's a guy who's standing on a street corner in

0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:19.159
<v Speaker 1>New Orleans handing out leaflets for the fair Play for

0:27:19.240 --> 0:27:22.280
<v Speaker 1>Cuba Committee, And who's filming that? And why is that

0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:25.200
<v Speaker 1>even being filmed. If you want the public to know

0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:28.280
<v Speaker 1>something about something, you have to create some kind of

0:27:28.320 --> 0:27:32.000
<v Speaker 1>event that would make news. So while handing out these

0:27:32.080 --> 0:27:34.119
<v Speaker 1>pro Castro leaflets.

0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:37.719
<v Speaker 3>Four members of the Cuban Student Director confronted him, grabbed

0:27:37.720 --> 0:27:40.960
<v Speaker 3>his pamphlets, threw him in the air, started shouting at him,

0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:44.000
<v Speaker 3>and was about to be a fight, and two cops

0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:45.560
<v Speaker 3>came in and arrested them all.

0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:50.080
<v Speaker 1>The local radio station WDSU jumped all over it.

0:27:50.160 --> 0:27:54.240
<v Speaker 2>The reporter, a guy named William Kurt Stuckey from WDSU,

0:27:54.440 --> 0:27:57.760
<v Speaker 2>named the fair Play for Cuba Committee in his report

0:27:57.840 --> 0:28:01.800
<v Speaker 2>and named Lee Harvey Oswald. So what would be the

0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:03.120
<v Speaker 2>implication of that.

0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:06.239
<v Speaker 1>They're staging this? How else would the public know that

0:28:06.280 --> 0:28:09.119
<v Speaker 1>Oswald was pro castro unless it was picked up by

0:28:09.160 --> 0:28:11.840
<v Speaker 1>the press. It had to be documented.

0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:14.480
<v Speaker 4>Oswald was getting sheep dipped as a pro Castro agent,

0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:17.440
<v Speaker 4>and at the same time, the fair Play for Cuba

0:28:17.480 --> 0:28:19.280
<v Speaker 4>Committee was being made to look weak.

0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:23.440
<v Speaker 6>Oswald and the Cubans are all arrested, they're taken into

0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:27.000
<v Speaker 6>the police station. Oswald the first thing he does is

0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:31.120
<v Speaker 6>ask for an FBI age. Why would a leftist supporter

0:28:31.200 --> 0:28:34.680
<v Speaker 6>of Fidel Castro ask to see an FBI.

0:28:34.320 --> 0:28:37.520
<v Speaker 1>Agent Because it was all theater and Oswald was in

0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:38.360
<v Speaker 1>the lead role.

0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:44.760
<v Speaker 2>To this day, the CIA denies their connection to Oswald

0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 2>despite everything we know, some of which we've covered so

0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:50.800
<v Speaker 2>far in this series. They claim to have had very

0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:55.880
<v Speaker 2>minimal awareness of Oswald and no direct connection. In June

0:28:55.920 --> 0:28:58.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty three, Peter Baker of The New York Times

0:28:59.000 --> 0:29:03.239
<v Speaker 2>published a story revealing new details about the CIA and

0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:07.080
<v Speaker 2>their relationship with Oswald. The story covered a CIA memo

0:29:07.200 --> 0:29:10.760
<v Speaker 2>from June of nineteen sixty two that summarized the contents

0:29:11.040 --> 0:29:14.200
<v Speaker 2>of a letter between Lee Harvey Oswald and his mother.

0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:18.440
<v Speaker 1>This letter was intercepted and read by the CIA when

0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 1>it was originally sent. So right there we have another

0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:25.720
<v Speaker 1>piece of documentation of the fact that the CIA was

0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:28.600
<v Speaker 1>fully aware and tracking Lee Harvey Oswald.

0:29:29.160 --> 0:29:33.320
<v Speaker 2>Now, apparently the existence of this CIA memo wasn't news

0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:38.800
<v Speaker 2>assassination researchers have known that this memo existed for decades.

0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:41.640
<v Speaker 2>The news that the New York Times was breaking in

0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:45.040
<v Speaker 2>their story was about the author of this memo, which

0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:47.480
<v Speaker 2>strikes me as odd that it was more important to

0:29:47.520 --> 0:29:50.240
<v Speaker 2>the CIA to hide the identity of the person who

0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:53.840
<v Speaker 2>wrote the memo than the existence of the memo itself.

0:29:54.200 --> 0:29:57.320
<v Speaker 2>But now that we have a basic understanding of the

0:29:57.320 --> 0:30:00.560
<v Speaker 2>wilderness of mirrors and the fact that thing in this

0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:03.840
<v Speaker 2>world are often not what they seem, I wanted to

0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:06.640
<v Speaker 2>talk to someone that could help me understand what the

0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>CIA was up to and the significance of the name

0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:13.480
<v Speaker 2>that The Times uncovered. So we asked Jefferson Morley to

0:30:13.560 --> 0:30:16.960
<v Speaker 2>join us once again. So, jeff who was the CIA

0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:20.240
<v Speaker 2>agent who was reading Oswald's mail and who was he

0:30:20.360 --> 0:30:21.440
<v Speaker 2>sending these summaries to?

0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:23.160
<v Speaker 3>Ruben e.

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:26.280
<v Speaker 6>Fhron was a CIA analyst and translator. He's worked for

0:30:26.320 --> 0:30:31.480
<v Speaker 6>the CIA for since nineteen fifty five. He was in

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:35.040
<v Speaker 6>charge of reading the mail of people who were picked

0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:37.800
<v Speaker 6>by James Angleton. So Angleton had a list of about

0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:43.280
<v Speaker 6>two hundred people whose mail he opened, copied, filed, and

0:30:43.360 --> 0:30:47.280
<v Speaker 6>Oswald was one of those people, starting from the week

0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:51.440
<v Speaker 6>he went to the Soviet Union in nineteen fifty nine.

0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:54.880
<v Speaker 2>So it was known that mister Efron's role was to

0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:57.960
<v Speaker 2>surveil the mail of people that Angleton had on this

0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:02.320
<v Speaker 2>select list. What is about this memo that stands out?

0:31:03.000 --> 0:31:07.960
<v Speaker 6>The time story showed that not only was the CIA

0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:10.960
<v Speaker 6>reading Oswald's mail while he was in the Soviet Union.

0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:14.080
<v Speaker 6>When Oswald comes home, Ephron writes a memo which he

0:31:14.160 --> 0:31:18.160
<v Speaker 6>sends to his boss, which says, missus editor in CI

0:31:18.400 --> 0:31:20.240
<v Speaker 6>SIG will be interested.

0:31:20.960 --> 0:31:25.440
<v Speaker 2>CI SIG is the Counterintelligence Special Investigations Group.

0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:30.360
<v Speaker 4>CI SIG was so secret that almost nobody in the

0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:34.160
<v Speaker 4>CIA other than Dulles Angleton and the people that worked

0:31:34.160 --> 0:31:36.400
<v Speaker 4>in SIGG knew it even existed.

0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:40.800
<v Speaker 6>The fact that Oswald's file is controlled at that highest

0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:44.920
<v Speaker 6>level of the CIA is extremely noteworthy. So what the

0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:48.760
<v Speaker 6>time story shows is that not only were they reading

0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:51.720
<v Speaker 6>his mail, but after he returned to the United States,

0:31:52.040 --> 0:31:53.680
<v Speaker 6>they were paying close attention to.

0:31:53.680 --> 0:31:56.520
<v Speaker 2>Him, and that they would be the poet's spy.

0:31:57.160 --> 0:32:01.200
<v Speaker 1>Angleton knew all about Oswald, and if you start to

0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:04.800
<v Speaker 1>connect the dots, when Angleton needed someone in nineteen sixty

0:32:04.840 --> 0:32:07.760
<v Speaker 1>three to play a role in his efforts to take

0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:12.840
<v Speaker 1>down Castro, he taps someone he knows, Lee Harvey Oswald.

0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Next episode on Who Killed JFK, we meet Richard K.

0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:22.680
<v Speaker 2>S Nakel, also known as the Man who Knew too Much.

0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:24.040
<v Speaker 1>By sure accident.

0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:27.880
<v Speaker 7>He's struggled on the fact that there was an assassination here.

0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:32.520
<v Speaker 7>Good plan, and then it is preliminary hearing and he says, well,

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:35.240
<v Speaker 7>I'm glad you caught me. He says, I really don't

0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:38.200
<v Speaker 7>want to be in Dallas, and I says, well, what

0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:39.000
<v Speaker 7>do you mean by that?

0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:40.240
<v Speaker 1>And he says, you'll want to know.

0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Who killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me

0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:51.320
<v Speaker 2>solid At O'Brien and Our executive producers are Rob Reiner,

0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman, and me

0:32:56.000 --> 0:33:00.800
<v Speaker 2>Soldad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman, with research by

0:33:00.800 --> 0:33:05.120
<v Speaker 2>Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pignero.

0:33:05.800 --> 0:33:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Our senior producer is Julie Pinneo. Our producers are Tristan Nash,

0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfein, and Amari Lee. Our editors are

0:33:15.840 --> 0:33:20.320
<v Speaker 2>Tristan Nash, Julie Pigneto, and Marcus de Lauro. Our project

0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:25.600
<v Speaker 2>manager is Carol Klein. Archival audio in this episode thanks

0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:31.480
<v Speaker 2>to Dick Russell. Our Associate producer is emilse Kiros. Mixing,

0:33:31.680 --> 0:33:37.240
<v Speaker 2>mastering and sound design by Ben La Julie. Music by APM,

0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:41.320
<v Speaker 2>Research and fact checking by Girl Friday and emilse Kiros.

0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Business affairs by him Nan Nadea and Jonathan Furman. Consulting

0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:51.160
<v Speaker 2>producer is Razanne Galliini. Recorded in part at CDM Studio

0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:56.160
<v Speaker 2>and Fourth Street Recording Studio. Show logo by Lucy Kintanilla.

0:33:56.800 --> 0:34:02.120
<v Speaker 2>Production assistants by Rocco Del Prior and Grace Baron. Special

0:34:02.120 --> 0:34:05.960
<v Speaker 2>thanks to Johonenig Rose Arsay and Dan Storper. If you're

0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:08.600
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0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:13.040
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0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:24.399
<v Speaker 2>of Solidad O'Brien Productions and iHeart Podcasts