WEBVTT - Riz Ahmed: How to Silence Your Inner Critic (And Build REAL Self Worth) 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.920 Have long, deep history with this critical voice and this shame, 0:00:04.000 --> 0:00:05.760 and I really think it can kill you. 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:09.280 Man. What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong. 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:11.879 Different parts of me in every place that I go to. 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.240 If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went, and you're 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:14.840 probably not in. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.440 The right place. What is Riz Ahmed's dream? 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.360 External markers of achievement, the award, the round of applause, 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:24.119 They don't nourish you on a soul level. And the 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:27.320 thing that I'm seeking now is a sense of flow 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:28.960 at that moment when you forget yourself. 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.960 Hey, everyone, welcome back to on purpose, the place you 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.000 come to become the happier, healthier and more healed. Today's 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:39.600 guest to someone I've been wanting to have in this 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.479 seat for god knows how many years. I'm joined by 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:47.920 the one the only, Riz Armored Academy Award winning actor, writer, 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:51.960 producer and artist, known for Sound of Metal, Rogue One, 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.120 and The Night of and for bringing deeply human stories 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.400 to life. Riz is currently starring in Bait. If you 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.279 haven't seen it, make sure you do. A series exploring 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.479 identity and the tension between who we are and how 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:08.520 we're seen. His reimagined film Hamlet and Digger, his new 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.760 film coming later this year. Please welcome to On Purpose, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.960 Riz Ahmed Riz. Honestly, whether it was Post nine to 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:21.560 eleven Blues, whether it was Four Lions, We've been with 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:25.160 you from the start. I've been cheering so much. I 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:29.119 am a huge fan of how you put yourself out there, 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:34.120 the conversations you have, your multidisciplinary art form, and honestly, 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:35.679 I've been waiting for this moment. I feel like, for 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.759 like god, at least seven years since I launched the show. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.640 Likewise, Jay, because I'm watching you and I've just been 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.840 rooting for you from the beginning. And you know, we 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.720 were just saying this before the camera started rolling. We 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.520 have so many people in common in the work world 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.480 but also in the personal world because we grew up 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:54.240 not too far away from each other in kind of 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.360 overlapping worlds as well. So seeing you doing your thing, 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.880 blazing a trail is just super inspiring. So Likewise, man, 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.800 I've been itching to get in here and yeah, talk 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:04.080 to you. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.800 Yeah, absolutely absolutely, I was thinking about it, and I 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:08.280 want to vouch for this because I like doing this 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:10.200 when I've got someone on the show and I've got 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.000 a memory that stands out to me, and it was 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.320 probably around five years ago. I think it was you'd 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.200 been nominated for an Oscar. We had this South Asian 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.760 Oscars evening in La and you were at the party. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:22.680 It was probably the only time I've actually been in 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:23.920 the room with you. It was me, you and we 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:27.399 were talking to Bella Bella Bajari, who's chief content officer Netflix, 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.480 dear friend, and you said to Bella you were like, 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:32.720 give this guy a show man, Like you were like 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.160 you were vouching for me even back then, like give 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.080 him a show. Beller like, what are you doing? And 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:38.920 I was like this is I was like, this is 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.040 so nice. I'll take it. Like you're a man at 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.040 the moment, you're nominated for the Oscar and you're trying 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:44.760 to get me a show and now we've got three 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.799 shows at Netflix. Amazing. You know, AMAZ feel like you 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.519 planted a very important say I want to give your 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.200 flowers and give you treadit for that man. 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:54.440 For me, the reason I was rooting for you was 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.840 because of not just what you have to say, because 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.160 of course what you say is is so rooted in 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:02.240 this ancient tradition. 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:04.320 It's how you say it. 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.600 It's how approachable it is, It's how human it feels, 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.799 it's how relatable it felt, just even selfishly on the 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.680 personal level, when I hear you speak, when I see 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:16.880 the way that you're relating to people or making these 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.960 things that can sometimes feel very abstract or kind of 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:25.240 elusive ideas, esoteric ideas, and bring them into the every day, 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:26.600 bring them into our daily lives. 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:28.959 It makes me feel less stupid, do you know what 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:29.320 I mean? 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.520 It makes me like okay, yeah, okay, yeah, all right, 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.120 I can I understand that. I get to grips with that. 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.520 And I'm certainly one of those people who for a 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:38.680 long time thought, oh, what's this meditation stuff? 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:39.320 What is this? 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.240 This is kind of a bit airy fairy, And it 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:43.720 actually became such a big part of my life for 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:46.640 many years and changed my life in so many different ways. 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.440 It's really because of people like you making it relatable, 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.360 making it human. So yeah, on a personal level, I 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:55.080 was like, I need more Jay Shae in my life. 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:57.720 Kind man, thank you. That means the world. It's an 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.840 incredible moment for you. I feel like You're everywhere in 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:03.840 a good way. I feel like Bait has just pierced 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.920 through the zeitgeist and the culture. I mean, ninety five 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:11.480 percent on rotten tomatoes. Unbelievable. That is ridiculous to even 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.840 think about you and like to see the kind of 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.480 conversations it started. It's not just oh my god, you 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.720 should watch this show. It's really good. It started conversations 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:24.760 about identity, about shame, about mental health, about in a critic, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.200 about guilt, about all these things. And you see it 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.760 where wherever I go on my feed, whether it's TikTok 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:33.159 or Instagram, either it's you or someone talking about the show. 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:37.040 How does it feel to put yourself out there in 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.760 such a vulnerable way because this story has so much 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:42.640 of a correlation with your reality. How does it feel 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.640 to put yourself out there almost not wanting validation, and 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.200 then to be validated for it. It's really interesting, isn't it? 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:52.359 Because the whole show is about validation seeking and how 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.880 it can lead us down a really dangerous path. Is 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.560 very natural, is very human with social animals to want 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.320 that connection, want that praise, affirmation to be seen. But 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.520 if you are purely dependent on that external validation and 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:08.800 you're not giving your self that self love, you can 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.320 become completely lost, and that's what the show is about. 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.440 And the show is really inspired by my own journey 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:16.520 with that. You know, I've been on that journey. I 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.279 continue to go on that journey. I haven't fixed it. 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.280 I haven't solved the equation. It's a constant battle, you know, 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.320 trying to find that self love and not just be 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:28.680 on a treadmill looking for it from other places. So 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.160 the show is about that and about trying to get 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:34.480 past validation. So in a weird way, when people are 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.360 validating the show, I'm like, this is a trap. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:39.919 You know. It's interesting. 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.280 I was saying something that this is someone the other day, 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:47.880 which is I've never been great at receiving praise. Just now, 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:49.360 when you were saying all these nice things about me, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.880 I was actually saying, okay, way with Jaysh. I'm gonna 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.720 open my heart, try and be present and receive receive 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.760 the good energy. But something in me, and I'm sure 0:05:57.760 --> 0:05:59.599 you've come up against this with all kinds of people. 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:01.240 I don't know how you deal with it yourself. Even 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:07.040 something about receiving praise something makes me feel uncomfortable. And 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:09.200 so I'm trying to find that balance of not being 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.920 desperate and hungry for it. You know, you can't live 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.200 off a diet of this candy, of these dopamine hits. 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.560 So people's pray but also just receive it and avoid it. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:20.720 I can sometimes swing between those extremes. 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:22.240 You know. This on the one hand is. 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.640 Googling yourself late at night, and on the other hand, 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:28.320 it's like going like, nah, no, there's nothing is rubbish, 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.960 And so I'm just trying to find that healthy middle ground, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:32.400 because the show's about that in a way. 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.160 Yeah, No, I find that powerful because I feel like 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.400 it's almost like my friend said this to me the 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:39.680 other day and I really liked it. It's this idea 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.279 of like too tight too loose, Like sometimes you're holding 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.280 yourself too tightly, like everything matters and everything's important, yes, 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:47.360 And then sometimes you don't hold yourself tightly at all. 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.080 It's too loose and you're like, oh, nothing matters, No, 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.520 it doesn't matter what anyone else says about me. And 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.240 it's like, if you think about it, you're always trying 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.760 to oscillate between too tight too loose, and you're trying 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:57.880 to find that perfect balance of like how do I 0:06:57.920 --> 0:06:59.760 hold myself in a way I don't suffocate myself or 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.280 stra but how do I hold myself in a way 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:06.520 that I don't also just let myself go where nothing 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.400 is important or valuable. And I was thinking about it 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:11.240 because in the show we get so many of these 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:16.080 flashbacks into Shah's childhood, his teenagers. I've seen the show. 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.320 I loved it, and I have been talking about it 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.240 with colleagues and friends and people who have all had 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.920 interesting reflections on it, both people from South Asian backgrounds 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.080 and people from completely not. And that's what I love 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.920 about the show is that it starts really fascinating dialogues 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.440 beyond culture and gender and race. But one of the 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.000 things that stood out I wanted to ask you is 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.160 what's a childhood memory that you have that you would 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:39.680 say defines who you are today. 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.640 When I was about eight years old, me and my 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:44.880 brother got put up against the wall by a couple 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:49.120 of skinheads. Right for people outside of the British context, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.000 they like it was like a racist movement basically. Then 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:53.880 they put a knife to my brother's throat. I remember 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:55.960 being eight years old looking up at him. He was 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.400 kind of defending me, and it was just this kind 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.000 of shocking, reallyzation that oh I'm different. I'm different in 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.480 a way that means that I could be in danger 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.680 and feeling other than that way. Maybe more vigilant made 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:12.880 me more aware of my identity In many ways. It 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:14.640 set me on a lifelong journey of trying to like 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:18.800 square the circle of my identity. In some periods of time, 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.440 I've tried to code switch a lot. If I've gone 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.520 to a predominantly why upper class school, which I did 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:27.920 a code switch in that way, then I'd hang out 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.360 of my neighborhood. I'd code switch another way. And I 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.000 think that journey has defined me. I think that's how 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.400 why I started acting was kind of code switching from 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.880 one social environment to another. It's a kind of performance right, 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:40.959 And where I'm at now, and really what the show 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:42.640 Bait is also trying to do and what it's about, 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:44.880 it's about a search for identity. So I'm trying to 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.360 bring all those different sides of me together, not edit 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.280 and censor myself when I walk into a room. I 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.480 did this monologue for snl UK recently and I was 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.120 working with the writers on it, and it was about 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.120 identity crisis, and I was like, I'm having an identity crisis. 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.280 The uk is everyone's having an idy We're all trying 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.240 to work out who we are. And I said, look, 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:03.400 that's why I stand like a mix between Stormzy and 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:07.199 Rishie Sunak and just trying to embrace that, be playful 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.560 about that confusion. I think that moment of realizing my 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.160 difference and navigating identity was a big one. The other 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.760 one's a lot more of a playful memory. Every time 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.760 there was a community gathering at some point, the Aunties 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.520 would be high on Coca Cola and Fanta and they 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.000 would say, bring Gorlu down. Gorlu was my name in 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.640 the community. No Gorlu means round though, yeah, little spherical 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.959 round object. Don't Apparently my brother named me Gorlu. I 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.840 had a round it grown er, don't ask bring Gulu down. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.880 It's time and I would perform and I would do 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.520 Michael Jackson dancing and I would do like just right 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.320 and it honestly they basically I'd be smashed off coca 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.400 cola as like a six year old, just like just 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.800 freaking out, just throwing my limbs. I just remember these 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.840 rows of Aunties just sat there clapping and just feel 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.000 like this is the best feeling ever. I'm just getting 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.200 to express these quite wild animal movements. I mean, it 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.240 did look nothing like how dancing should look. I'll just 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.920 basically freak out in this really expressive way and be 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:13.840 a firmed for it. 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.040 Quite strange. But I don't know if anyone else can 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:17.840 relate to that, if any other kids out there were 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:20.520 brought down to dance for the anties. But I say 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:25.400 the mixture of those two things, you know, self expression 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.440 and navigating identity as something that could be a bit dangerous, 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:32.120 those two elements I think have kind of really forged 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.080 my whole path, and I've been exploring how those two 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.199 things relate to each other my whole life. Yeah, I'm 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.520 fascinated by those two memories because they, like you said, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:44.360 ones play for and has certain consequences with what happens 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.400 with that, the validation, the praise, the applause for losing control, 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.560 and then the other one is actually quite to be 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:52.840 in that threatening place as a young man with your 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:57.400 brother and feeling the racist implications of having that kind 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.560 of interaction with song. So many people go, I mean, 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.240 sure you experienced a lot. When you said Gorlu, I 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:05.760 was like, so I was overweight growing up, so I 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.960 was bullied for that. I was bullied for the color 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:09.360 of my skin because the area I grew up and 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.280 there weren't a lot of people of our color. And 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.880 so I get it, like I hear that, and that 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:16.920 doesn't make it any more normal or easy or better 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:18.600 for any of us. It's just like, no, that's what 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.839 you went through. But I can also relate to the 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.599 other side of the Aunties. I could totally relate to 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.840 everything you just said. I'm just like we'd be at 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:28.319 like an event and the act had pulled out or something, 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:29.360 and then my mom would be like, all right, you 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.640 got to go on stage and save the day. What 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.200 do you mean? Like, I haven't prepared anything. I'm not 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.319 ready for this, and I'd have to figure it out. 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.640 We're all out ages trying to please Aunties literally literally 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:42.360 to do what is up with that? And the funny 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.640 thing is where I was saying this too earlier and 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:46.920 I saved it. But I was like, you know, like 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.440 you you kind of you lived the auntie's dream, like 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:51.720 you went to a great school. You don't went to 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.040 Oxford and did PP For anyone who doesn't know, that's 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.040 the prime minister's degree, like the prime ministers of England. 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:58.920 I think pretty much every single one of them did 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.839 ppe at Oxford as a subject, it is the most 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.640 world class degree could possibly do in the whole entire country. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:07.400 Then you go, I want to become an actor, and 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:09.400 then you go be an actor too. I'm like, you 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.360 did it like you did the academic dream you did 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.200 the you did your dream like when you look at 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.840 it from that perspective of hey, wait a minute, I 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.480 actually lived every dream here when you look back and 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.679 go what is my dream now? Or uncovering what is 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.439 riz Armed's dream? Do you have anything that feels close? 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:28.800 You know? 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.120 It's so interesting hearing you say this, because I don't 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:32.640 know if you have this j if I sit back 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.000 here and I say, Jay, you've done this thing. You 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.720 brought kind of mindfulness and this Eastern philosophy to like 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.000 the world. You've got the world's number one health podcast, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.640 all this kind of stuff. You're aware of those things, 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:48.000 possibly as facts, but your internal experience of it. Does 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.880 it really land like that? Or does it feel like 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:57.080 a series of mistakes that went right, moments of hubris 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.839 that went wrong, a journey that's constantly unfolding that you're 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.640 not quite in control of. And in many ways like 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.400 you don't stop to like breathe it. But maybe I mean, 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.280 I'm sure you stop to breathe all the time, so 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.319 you stop to kind of, you know, kind of really 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.320 have check out that perspective. But when you're saying these 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:17.640 things about kind of living the dream or whatever, I 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.320 guess I don't see it like that. I feel very 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.559 grateful for my journey. And maybe the reason why I 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.040 don't see it like that is I realized that all 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.760 these kind of external markers of achievement, they. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.680 Don't really land. They don't really land in the way 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.760 you think they will. The award, the round of applause, 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.800 these fleeting moments, these moments have kind of these dopamine hits, 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:42.880 those moments of the little kid dancing in front of 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.080 the aunties, being handed in another cup of coca cola 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.199 in a round of applause, and you know, those moments 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:52.640 they feel nice, they feel good, but they're very fleeting. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.840 They don't nourish you on a soul level. Those external things. 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.440 I think what we're searching for as artists, as storytellers, 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.480 as actors, but really any of us is a sense 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:01.920 of flow. 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.400 You know, at that moment when you forget yourself. It's 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.760 that feeling when you're not literally self conscious, and you 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.240 talk about this so much, right, and this feeling of 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.560 connection to all things and all people, and every now 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:18.400 and again, in a fleeting moment, whether you're lost in 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.160 a jigsaw puzzle you love, or a video gamee or 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.360 on stage performing or in a conversation playing with your kid, 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:27.040 you forget yourself. 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:32.120 And that's the thing I'm chasing. It's trying to live 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.320 in that as much as possible, both in my art 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.480 and in my life. I want to try and just 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.400 find a way of just living as close as possible 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.960 to that pocket, rather than these milestones and these trophies 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.200 and these things of achievement. Of course, we all have 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:49.600 an ego. 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:50.320 We need one. 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.240 I'm still setting goals, I'm still setting targets. We're still 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:57.720 living in this world. But I've realized, in a weird way, 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.760 having achieved some of those things, having ticked some of 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.680 those boxes, it doesn't feed. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.120 Your soul in the way you think it will. It 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.920 makes so much sense because I think as humans were 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:10.920 only good at living in the two extremes. So one 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.120 is life is all about goals. It's about the malester, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.600 and it's about winning and I want to get there. 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:17.920 And then the other option is, oh, none of that matters. 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.680 I've just got a bee. And really it's all in 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.880 the middle somewhere like you're saying, which is I need 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.440 to have goals and I need to know where I'm going, 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.280 but I know that that's not the thing that's going 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:30.840 to feed my soul or make me feel full. I've 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.360 been just thinking about this a lot lately, because I 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.040 talk about these things and I practice these things, but 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.000 then you meet someone who does it better than you, 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.480 more naturally, more effortlessly, and you go, you're talking about me. 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.640 J Yeah, yeah, I was talking about you life, Thank you. 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:46.880 I was doing one of my friends who's like she 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.920 can make like if she saw a beautiful colored flower 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:54.120 on the side of her own she would stop and 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.120 grab them and feel like someone just gave her a 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.480 million dollars amazing, and it sounds ridiculous to say it, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:04.080 but having watched her do that, I'm just like, that's 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.240 what I want like to be, you know, to be 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:11.000 able to turn that really ordinary, simple moment into feeling 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.240 like it's the most order. And we see this in kids. 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.320 I know you're a dad too. It's like you see 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.680 this in kids when you watch a kid just marvel 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.280 at something and they're lost in a moment. You know, 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.880 there's that classic stereotypical thing of like trying to get 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.440 everyone out of the house, put on your shoes because 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.520 we've got somewhere to be milestone objective, achievement goal, and 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.760 the kid is like playing. 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:36.040 With the velcrow on the shoes. And it's that. That's 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:37.480 the thing, That's what it's all about. 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:38.080 It is this moment. 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.320 What you're saying kind of reminds me of obviously is 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.640 that cliche is not the destination, it's the journey. But 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.480 I think you need to set the destination so that 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.120 you get to experience the journey. And that's what I'm 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.040 talking about. It's like, you can aim to achieve x 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.800 y Z, just know that XYZ isn't going to be 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.520 the juice. The juice is going to be that feeling 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.400 of flow that if you're lucky, you might feel trying 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:02.040 to get there. 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:03.000 You know. 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.000 The love that we've got on Bait was overwhelming for 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.359 me in a way because it was so personal, because 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.320 it was drawn from all my insecurities in Euroses in 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.639 such a personal place, not because I'm trying to do 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.239 something it's all about me, but actually because I think 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.240 those feelings are universal. I started, I was actually saying 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:22.320 to my wife, It's like, should I be enjoying that more? 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.720 Should it be landing more? And that's when I realized, like, 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:30.800 it's actually the reward was the process of making it 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.159 was the process of reaching inside to a vulnerable place 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.520 and kind of offering it up. There's that moment of offering, 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.520 is that moment of letting go. There's this sample at 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.600 the start of a j coletrack called the Climb Back. 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.080 The tracks pulled the Climback, and I think it's a 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.359 sample from a very old audio book called The Tower 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.919 of Leadership, and it says, you need to ask yourself, 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:57.119 why are you doing this work? 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:02.000 Is it to get or is it to let go? Oh? 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:02.719 That's it. 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.160 When you're reaching inside to share something and it's an offering. 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.040 That is the reward man, That feeling of lightness, that expansiveness. 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.480 The things you get back from it, they're nice, but 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.960 it's never going to be the juice like that letting 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.240 go was. So I'm trying to making my peace with 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:19.400 that now. 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:37.919 That's huge, though, to even be attempting to do that, 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.160 because it's so easy to stay on the hamster wheel. 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.760 It's almost easier to just keep producing, keep building, keep 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.440 putting out, keep doing that thing. You have this great line. 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:48.440 I think you said it in one of the interviews, 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.719 and it's in the themes Ofbate. It's even in I 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:52.560 believe it might even be in the show. But you said, 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:55.560 like life just feels like one big audition, and I 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:57.160 wanted to ask you about that. I think it's such 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.880 a great line because I think people are exhausted feeling 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.200 like their life just feels like one big audition, big term. 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.960