1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephman. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeart Radio. 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: And welcome back to our It's not I don't think 4 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 2: it's a mini series anymore. It's a full long series, 5 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: isn't it at this point? 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like a mini series. We're at least 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: we're approaching the edge. We're approaching the edge of what 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: a mini series is. 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 2: Right, because you know, if we just wanted to go 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: straight through all of these which is heavy, indeed, I think, yeah, 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: it would be a season essentially. Yeah, if we had 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 2: those which we don't believe in. Those we don't believe 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 2: in them. 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: We're just kind of we're doing what we can with 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: the time we have and our mental health. 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: That's right, That's right. Okay, we'll say it like that. 17 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: And yes, we are back with the series for Christianity 18 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 2: and religious Trauma in the Western Christian World. I guess 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,279 Speaker 2: that's how I'm gonna put it. I keep changing the names. 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: I need to get it together on this. 21 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: You do, and you know this is a peak behind 22 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: the curtain. But I generally write the description title, so 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: any errors in there are mine. 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,919 Speaker 2: I'm not helping with all the confusion. 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: But I am often like, okay, wait, what are we 26 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: calling it now? 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: Until I do. You were trying to say that I 28 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: came up with good names the other day, I was like, girl, no, 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: I could come up with this concepts. You have to 30 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: write the names because I can never actually title anything. Yes, 31 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: that's one of the words. Deep right, team, this is 32 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: how we this is how we figure it out. But yes, 33 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: so far, we've talked about women in Western Protestant churches, 34 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,639 Speaker 2: misogyny within the religious community, purity culture, and sex abuse 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: within Southern Baptist churches. Hey, we're talking about yes, even 36 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: more trauma, especially related to marriage in domestic violence in 37 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: the next episode, divorce. But yes, and then we are 38 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 2: more specifically talking about the role of a wife and 39 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: mother and motherhood. So yay, content warning, we are talking 40 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: about domestic violence, abuse, religious trauma, and childhood trauma as well, 41 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: because some of this was a little too close to home. 42 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: Once again, once again, yes, and by the way, I 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: have ruined my Google algorithm and I can't find anything 44 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 2: that isn't a Christian blog trying to tell me that 45 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 2: I would be a better human if I had babies 46 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: raised them in a church and supported my husband. It 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 2: is a generalization, but y'all, those are the articles I'm getting, 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: and they're all blogs or church related affiliated columns telling 49 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: me these are the steps of being a good woman. 50 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: I can't get it off my screen and it's really upsetting. 51 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: I'm really getting annoyed by this. Yes, however, it is 52 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: offering a lot of columns again that start with how 53 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: to be a godly woman? Godly comes up quite often. Man, 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: I have been so far away from this world seeing 55 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: this it makes my heart skip a beat, not in 56 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: a good way, right, And yes, if I mentioned marriage, 57 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: it immediately steps into how to be a good mother, 58 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: like that's the next thing on the list. And usually 59 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: being married means your next step is to be a mother. 60 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: So why are you hesitating? Obviously? And yeah, So growing 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: up in this very religious lifestyle as a girl, I 62 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: had always heard that women, for women, our greatest gifts 63 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: were to be a wife, to be a mother, and 64 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: to have a family. My own adoptive family is made 65 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: up of the traditional working dad and a stay at 66 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: home mom. I mean she had dinner ready made, sure 67 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 2: that the home was perfect. I grew up watching my 68 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: mother pick lint off the carpet every time she went 69 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: by me in the living room, and I thought that 70 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: was normal, like who does and then realizing, oh, my 71 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: mother's extra special and extra attentive when it comes to 72 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: it is I my You and I have talked about 73 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: how in comparison to our mother's, how we feel so sloppy. 74 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: My mother has it together. Even to this day. She 75 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: has a little bit of clutter in her storage attic, 76 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: and she apologizes for that as if it's a mess, 77 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: like people are going to go sit up there and 78 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: hang out like that. Yes, I'm like, I wouldn't have 79 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: known had you not told me what's happening. And yes, 80 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: my mother was also very event to my father. She 81 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: wouldn't take his crap and he would never abuse her 82 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,679 Speaker 2: in such a way, but like obviously she would follow 83 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: his lead. Even having a serious conversation recently, she would say, 84 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 2: you just need to talk to your father. Of course 85 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: that also has in part that he and I can 86 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: actually have a conversation as where she gets heated up 87 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: and we both start crying, So that might be the 88 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,119 Speaker 2: other reason. But yes, she had dinner ready. She raised 89 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: four kids, including myself, and then she raised many more 90 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: foster children. So I've had lots of people in her 91 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: home and she has been called mom by several several 92 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: several people who are not her biological children, myself included. 93 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 2: And yeah, she made it look doable. Don't get me wrong. 94 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: I definitely saw her on the edge a couple of 95 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 2: times where she would just absolutely lose it and we'd 96 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: be like, Okay, Mama, mama's mama's go Mom's going out. 97 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: Mom is going to have it out with us, so 98 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: we need to go hide because it's it's that time 99 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: and it's rare. And it was fair that she did, 100 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 2: because she was like, she's very patient, but she was 101 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 2: ready to blow and things made go flying across the 102 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: kitchen like we knew things were happening. We needed to run, 103 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: oh god. Or it was also the tradition that she 104 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: would finally get fed up with my father and say 105 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: this is where I learned that term. And my mother 106 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 2: never curses, but yeah, she would literally be like yes 107 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 2: and then just walk off. One of my favorite phrases 108 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 2: still I still love to use it, by the way, 109 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: a good one it is. And then but watching her 110 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 2: going through all this, watching her relationship with her my father, 111 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 2: I actually told them. This was not what I wanted. 112 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 2: I said that out loud. I remember getting on to 113 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: my father a few times because my mother would have 114 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 2: dinner ready. We never sat at a table. We sat 115 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: in the living room, watched TV. We had like probably 116 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: a dinner tray. We were those people. My dad had 117 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: a random long board that he used as a dinner 118 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: tray that went across the chair. It was hilarious. Don't ask, 119 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: but he would use that and would sit in his 120 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 2: big chair, comfy chair and eat. But he was always 121 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 2: the first person to get up late that my mother 122 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: would bring to him, and he would if he finished 123 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: dinner before my mother finished and he wanted seconds, she 124 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: would immediately stop eating, get up, take his plate, get 125 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: his second course, and come back and then start finishing 126 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: her first plate, in which I would get so upset. 127 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: I would yell at my father, you need to get 128 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: up yourself and let her eat. I was very upset. Yeah, 129 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: but this is the type of home that we lived in. 130 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: My mother loved it. My mother really felt like this 131 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: was her calling. She will tell you this, this is 132 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: her calling to be our mother and to be her 133 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: be his wife. And yeah, this was not my goal. 134 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: I did not want this. I went to college away 135 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: from home. I was the first person to actually leave 136 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: the home to go to college. I did focus on 137 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: service though, And yeah, I've talked about my experience as 138 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: a missionary, which I regret. And there's a lot of 139 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: things that we need to unpack with the colonization and 140 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: missionary work and and that kind of deceptiveness. But that's 141 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: a whole different episode that I don't think we're going 142 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 2: to talk about this time around in the series. But 143 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 2: who knows, who knows? But yeah, and well, of course, 144 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: in that the focus of the church is to bring 145 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: more Christians into the world, whether through conversion or through birth. 146 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: And yeah, it's a gathering of a kingdom. It sounds 147 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: like a cult, yeah, and they would never call themselves 148 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: a cult, but that's what the intent. The intention is 149 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: to convert all of the world to their beliefs, so 150 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: and their way of life, just say yeah and again. 151 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: But for my young college days, I did study a lot, 152 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: and I also worked in ministry. I did the entire thing. 153 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 2: I was working every weekend around the Southeast teaching teenage 154 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: kids biblical stories and ideals. I sang with them. I 155 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: ran a women's ministry at church at my local church, 156 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: I went to church faithfully, went to Bible study, I 157 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: led Bible study in our churches. So yeah, I was very, 158 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: very very big into this. But as expected in college life, well, okay, 159 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: I have to backtrack. Not expected, I guess. I definitely 160 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: fell into the idea. As the Christian college girl. My 161 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 2: goal not only was to serve, I was to find 162 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: a partner a husband. Everything that the Bible told me 163 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: about this situation is that I need to find my leader, 164 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: the head of the household, and practice the techniques of 165 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 2: finding the perfect mate or mail as we say here, 166 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: And boy was it exhausting. Boy was it exhausting. Along 167 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: the lines of purity culture, there was the whole idea 168 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 2: of courtship. Oh God, I'm so embarrassed talking about this. 169 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: I'm so embarrassed. Handy, It's okay, this is a safe space. 170 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: But yes, I want to do it. Of course, this 171 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 2: isn't necessary a thing with all churches. I think a 172 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 2: lot of people who are churchgoers and went to church 173 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 2: in college, who go to church like not religiously, but 174 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: will come every Sunday or every other Sunday or that 175 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: they don't do this and would probably give us a 176 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: side eye for the ones who did this, but it 177 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 2: was something I fell for. It's this weirdly romantic but 178 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: misogynistic ideal of meeting that godly man. Somehow it was romantic. 179 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: I think it's that same notion of like churning the 180 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 2: bad boy, and you're like, this is not a good 181 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: situation except for Jesus plus I guess plus Jesus, right, 182 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,839 Speaker 2: And books like Passion and Purity, I cast Date and 183 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: Goodbye the Five Languages of Love have a fueled a 184 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 2: whole generation of young people into dating Jesus's way or 185 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: not dating in Jesus's way. Actually, again, I was one 186 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: of those people. I read all of those books. Actually 187 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 2: I did not read The Languages of Love because it 188 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: came a little later. 189 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: But I that is the one where we talk about 190 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: like our love language, right, yeah, joke about it. 191 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk about it, and there's some merit to it. 192 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: But man, the level that people the level of confidence 193 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 2: that people have put in that book, Yeah, it is comical. 194 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: I will say that it is comical. Yeah, you know. 195 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: And in all of this, which is why I said 196 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: I had to backtrack a little bit. I've joke that 197 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 2: I lost a lot of my college experiences with all 198 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: the fear that my beliefs piled onto me. Caroline, former 199 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: host of the show, she and I had vastly different 200 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 2: college experiences even though we went around the same time 201 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: to the same colleges, Like we never interacted because we 202 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 2: were so different right in our social habits. And I 203 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 2: feel sad that I kind of missed out on it. 204 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: I do feel like I've been stunted because of it. 205 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: And I'm not alone. I'm not alone just watching my 206 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: peers go through a whole process. I'm going as far 207 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 2: in this courtship again my face is turning around and 208 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: having to ask a permission from the parent of the 209 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: person that you want to go out with before even 210 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: going out, Like this is not getting married, We're not 211 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: asking like this is like, hey, I think I actually 212 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 2: want to go on a with them, but it's not 213 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: actually a date because oftentimes it would be a group 214 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 2: hang or something and so, but yeah, they would still 215 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: go and ask the parents, will I have intentions with 216 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: your daughter? Oh? And that's it sounds so ridiculous, but yes, 217 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: that's the level it would get. To imagine it being 218 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: a mix of wholesome k drama, which now you understand 219 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: a little more of with the staunch eighteen hundred's idea 220 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: of propriety. Uh where. At this point, though, the parents 221 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 2: are just as confused as the rest of the world, 222 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: like what is what are y'all doing? Are you getting married? No? No, no, 223 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: no, no no, we're thinking about being boyfriend and girlfriend m hm, 224 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: and so the levels like wait, what what is happening? 225 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: And yeah, there was. It was a novel idea that 226 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 2: if we strip down all progress and freedom and love, 227 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: then we can undo all the sense we were backtracking 228 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: essentially in culture and dating culture. I should have a 229 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: therapy session just on this. You should write a book. 230 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: I should write a book. I don't want to. Yeah, 231 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: And if you follow the rules and know the rules 232 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: of books like Passion and Purity, where Elizabeth Elliott teaches 233 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: how to catch a husband. Now, don't get me wrong, 234 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: her thing is of a memoir about the fact that 235 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: she met her perfect husband and how that went down 236 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: and they went missionaries out in the world and then 237 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: he dies it's not nice, but you know, and then 238 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: she gets married I think a couple more times after 239 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: the fact, but it's the story about how he courted 240 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: her and the expectations. Here's a quote from a Christian 241 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: blog as they describe the book. Quote. She strongly cautions 242 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 2: against new trends like women initiating relationships, citing how masculinity 243 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: is rooted in God's character as initiates. This is from 244 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: the book. He woos us, calls us, wins us, give 245 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 2: us his capital h name, shares with us his destiny 246 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: capital age, takes responsibility for us, loves us with a 247 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: love stronger than death. She writes of the masculine responsibility 248 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: to quote care for, protect, provide for, and cherish for women. 249 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: She encourages qualities like affirmation, tenderness, maternalism, and mystery, a 250 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: sort of modesty and reserve. So in this blog she 251 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: is praising and this is new. This is a newer blog. 252 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: So I'm telling you it revamps every few years. This book. 253 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: Her estate has to have a lot of money, but 254 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: she's trying to encourage this old practice once again with 255 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 2: this novel idea that this manly man with gentle spirit 256 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: will come and woo you. I'm not anti Roman, but 257 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: I do still think we need to lower our expectations 258 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: where we are setting us up as well as our 259 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: partners up for failure. Well you know whatever, yeah, okay, okay. 260 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: Well, for books like I Kissed, Dating Goodbye, the call 261 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: for Christians to give up dating altogether was revolutionary. Tales 262 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: of consequences of sin and eternal loneliness for those who 263 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: took dating lightly was the forefront of many of the 264 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: messages in these books, the ignoring of human impulse desire 265 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: and pushing for everyone, especially women, to fight against it, 266 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: as if it would be the end of the world 267 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: to succumb to such awful temptations. But it also made 268 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: sure to add an extra large side of homophobia, as 269 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: Harris wrote in the book of him finding the fact 270 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: that he may have been checked out by three gay 271 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: men really specific a quote disgusting moment. He specifically writes 272 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: out that it made him respond with quote anger and 273 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: disgust and that it was quote wrong, so filthy. 274 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: Right. So we're talking about Joshua Harris, the author of 275 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 2: Kiss Stating Goodbye and then Boy Mats Girl, a book 276 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: about courtship. 277 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: Yes ah, but since then he has had a change 278 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: of heart. In fact, he's halted all reprints of the 279 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: book in twenty eighteen and in Instagram post, he apologized 280 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: and wrote, I have lived in repentance for the past 281 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: several years, repenting of my self righteousness, my fear based 282 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: approach to life, the teaching of my books, my views 283 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: of women in the church, and my approach to parenting, 284 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: to name a few. But I specifically want to add 285 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: to this list now to the LGBTQ plus community. I 286 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: want to say that I am sorry for the views 287 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: that I taught my books and as a pastor regarding sexuality. 288 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: I regret standing against marriage equality, for not affirming your 289 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: place in the church, and for any ways that my 290 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: writing and speaking contributed to a culture of exclusion and 291 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: big A treatment. So that's something. Yeah, yeah, Much like 292 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: many other millennials have also taken many steps away from 293 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: their faith, Harris has done the same. But the results 294 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: of the books like his still remain. And since we've 295 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: already talked at length about the toxicity of purity culture, 296 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: will bypass the redundancy of how purity culture ruined everything, 297 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: including dating. But let's talk about the Christianity and religious 298 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: trauma and how that has affected marriage, motherhood, and the 299 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: messy violence. 300 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 3: Right. 301 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 2: I'm not going to regel you with all the awful 302 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: courtship conversations that happened in college life. That's a whole 303 00:18:50,119 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 2: like outtake episode that that doesn't need to happen. So yeah, 304 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: the perfect wife and mother that seems to be the 305 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: ultimate goal. For years, my mother would let me know, 306 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 2: especially during the holidays, that she feared that I would 307 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: be like many of the women who would never settle 308 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: down and never have children of their own, and that 309 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: I would die alone with no children to care for me, 310 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: in which I responded, I would probably never have children, 311 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 2: give it up, I told them about Many times. She 312 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: would also give me examples of aunts, spinster aunts who 313 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: did not have children and how unhappy they were, And 314 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 2: I was like, I don't think that's true. I think 315 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: you want to paint it that way. I don't think 316 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: that's true. But okay, But she wasn't a fan of 317 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 2: my take. 318 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 4: Here. 319 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 2: For a woman whose identity is wrapped up in her 320 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: husband and children, this seemed like I was a person 321 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: with no purpose. Again, I would like to reiterate that 322 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong in loving your partner, loving your children, 323 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 2: loving your life, and caring for your family and giving 324 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: things to a higher power for these things, But to 325 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 2: do any of these things out of fear or fomo 326 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: fear of missing out. Yeah cool, then yes, maybe we 327 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: should re examine the reasons. Children will not fix our mistakes. 328 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 2: They won't fill the whole often left by past traumas, 329 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: will not be the love you've been trying to get 330 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: from an absent parent. And in my perspective, again, yes, 331 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: in my perspective, it is wrong to place that type 332 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: of responsibility onto a child. Just gonna put that out there. Sorry, 333 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: not sorry, but yes, I digress. Young women in the 334 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: Church are taught to be ready to serve and support family, 335 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 2: especially your husband. As in fact, many articles and Christian 336 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 2: advice columns, many of them will even give you an 337 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 2: exact list of things to do. And here's a list 338 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: of them from an article titled twelve Wonderful responsibilities God 339 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: has given to women. So number one, to love, believe, 340 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: and respect the Lord. To support the gospel work of 341 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: the Church. To be diligent in her vocations, so at 342 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 2: least she could have a job. To be a wife, 343 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: to be a mother, to care for her household, to 344 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 2: be a helper to her husband, To love and respect 345 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: her husband, to submit to her husband, to be respectable 346 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: to learn quietly in church and teach what is. 347 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: Good interesting, all right, And with that, with that list, 348 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: we are going to look at ideas closely related to 349 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: numbers four through nine. So, yes, women are told that 350 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: we must submit to the authority of men, as they 351 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: are the head of the household and have been given 352 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: the ultimate beauty of steering the family on the most 353 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: godly path. The term servant leader is often used to 354 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: describe the leadership of men in the household. As one 355 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: Christian article writes, quote, a woman who submits to the 356 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: servant leadership of a mature Christian man should be letting 357 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: herself in for a life where her husband devotes himself 358 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: to providing for her needs, protecting her, and yes, directing her. 359 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: At times. 360 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: A servant leader will not insist on his way in 361 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: areas where it is not possible to know objectively what 362 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: God wants. He will call for his wife to follow 363 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: Christ along with himself, but will graciously allow her to 364 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: refuse his suggestion often and I will say emphasis mine 365 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: that I put in there. But yeah, just that kind 366 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: of idea of graciously, very very very gracious. Indeed, Christian 367 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: women should understand the level of authority that men have 368 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: in the household, again under the theory of being a 369 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: servant leader. So it's kind of yeah, their godly duty 370 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: to be like, I will do what you do, all right? 371 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 4: Cool? 372 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 2: Right? 373 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: And what is the thoughts on post modern ideals, those 374 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: initiatives that women are taking these days. Here's what the 375 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: same article I had to say. Our post modern aversion 376 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: to authority is incompatible with Christianity, not only because it 377 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: flies in the face of biblical teaching, but because it 378 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: is based on our fear of corrupt and self serving authority. 379 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 2: Figures, yes, yes, yes, interesting to be about self. So 380 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 2: in that article they go on to explain that men 381 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: and women should rely on each other when it comes 382 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 2: to making decisions in the household. They say, quote, the 383 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: wife's submission to the husband within Christian marriage is grounded 384 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 2: in both spouse's willingness to defer to each other in love, 385 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: as well as to other Christian friends in their church. 386 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 2: We are all to submit to christ moral leadership whenever 387 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 2: it is expressed through others. But if there happens to 388 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: be a standoff in this protocol, here's the advice. In 389 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 2: the rare cases in which husband and wife cannot agree 390 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: on an important decision, The husband, who has proven himself 391 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 2: as a servant leader will usually be able to make 392 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 2: a mature decision, so again he is the overall authority. 393 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: Howesoutly usually can make a mature decision, all right, And 394 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: of course, as the household girls, a woman must learn 395 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: to be a wonderful mother. We are not experts, and 396 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: in fact, not one host on this show has been 397 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: a mother as a recording of this show as when 398 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: they were recording, So it's possible there's there's been a 399 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: lot of hosts of this show. It's possible that one 400 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: of the hosts I have a child now and only 401 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: two out of the six are currently married. So yeah, 402 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: we are not experts when it comes to marriage. Are 403 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: our motherhood on this show? It isn't hard to see 404 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: though that as the list we read earlier implied, being 405 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: a mother is a goal with Christian marriages, and again, 406 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: choosing to be a mother is amazing and one's own choice. 407 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, please don't think we're saying that there's anything 408 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: bad about that. 409 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 2: Right, There's always been pressure to be a perfect mother. 410 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: I think that's in just a generalization for all women 411 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 2: who are mothers. Being a mother often brings judgment from 412 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 2: others and as on, the pressure of being responsible for 413 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: another living beings terrifying. But in the Christian world, the 414 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: perfect mother is something that impacts the Christian population. Article 415 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: upon article all agree that women and mothers are responsible 416 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: for teaching their child the pathway of Christianity. And because 417 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: all I'm getting is Christian advice column, here's another list, 418 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: this time giving us some characteristics of a godly mother. 419 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 2: Are you ready? A godly mother cultivates a joyful spirit, 420 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: keeps up your heart, built up her house, is a 421 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 2: disciple maker, cheerfully serves her family, trains her children the 422 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: way they should go, practices patients in kindness, and lives 423 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: with christ like selflessness. 424 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: Yes, which we have talked about before. And I will 425 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: say as we record this Mother's days coming up, and 426 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: I was trying to buy my Mother's Day card and 427 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the cards have this kind of rhetoric. 428 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: Ye forgot it was happening, y'all. We are so timely. 429 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: I completely didn't even think about this. Oh always on purpose. 430 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And from the same article, quote when a 431 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: godly mother's work is done humbly and for the Lord 432 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: God will be made real in the lives of her children. 433 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: The ungodly world that is drawn by passing phases and 434 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: outward beauty will never see or understand the immortal beauty 435 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: of the influence of a godly mother. When mothers partner 436 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: with God, their children will be fit not only for 437 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: life in an ungodly world, but also for a future 438 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: in heaven. 439 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. This is exhausting, this list alone. I'm having flashbags 440 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 2: on really just putting on that facade which we've talked 441 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: about a lot of being the kind, dainty, gentle, soft, 442 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: perfect woman to show off and be like, yes, look 443 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: at me, I am a viable woman to be your partner. 444 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 2: I will give you babies which I wouldn't, and I 445 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: will support you like this whole level. Oh God, it's 446 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: making me sweat. Yeah. 447 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, especially that whole idea which we've talked 448 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: about before, of like being so selfless that the man 449 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: in this situation is just automatically before you and that's 450 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: a good thing. 451 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. 452 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: But there are a lot of women, and many of 453 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: whom are Christian, who push that perfect mother narrative to 454 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: the side. Who do they realize how impractical and unrealistic, 455 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: that is, and most Christians might even say it is 456 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 1: man made, and many have spoken out against the idea. 457 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: In another Christian article, one woman writes, I used to 458 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: be a perfect parent. I had strong opinions about the 459 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,479 Speaker 1: best way to raise a happy, healthy, well mannered child. 460 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,239 Speaker 1: I vowed that my children would appear well groomed and 461 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: clean it all times. They would be disciplined by my firm, 462 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: fair and consistent parenting techniques, and they would always always 463 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: be well behaved in restaurants. And when they were older, 464 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: I would instill a sense of self confidence a mutual 465 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: respect by showing them that I valued their opinions and 466 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: by treating them as equals. My ideas were so straightforward 467 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: and simple that I couldn't understand why other parents couldn't 468 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: be as perfect as I was. Then I had children. Yeah, 469 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: one of my most earliest memories. And I just want 470 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: to say at the top here like this was not 471 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: a super traumatic memory for me, so. 472 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: I don't want to fight about it. 473 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: But I did say I did say damn it in 474 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: a church when I was four years old, and my 475 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: parents that is the only time I've been spanked. 476 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 2: Wow, they were oh, no, girl, yeah. It took me 477 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 2: until adulthood after college for me to say damn. 478 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: It was a huge deal. 479 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: I couldn't did not say God until I was out 480 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 2: of college as well, because that was just bad as 481 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 2: saying across word. 482 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, definitely I had friends like that, and you know, 483 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: like I would love to one day future episode to 484 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: talk about what is going on with our I know 485 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: it confuses you, but with like our bleeping rule, but 486 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: the fact is, like what I just said is going 487 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: to be bleeped part of it for yes, whereas damn 488 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be. Yeah, so it's like infiltrated, all right. 489 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: Moving on. In her article, writer Debbie Farmer talks of 490 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: her struggle in compromising with her children just to have peace, 491 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: whether it's by giving in and allowing them to watch 492 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: cartoons on the phone while she's grocery shopping, or letting 493 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: them have an unhealthy snack every once in a while, 494 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: and wondering what the people around her think and whether 495 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: they are judging her for not being the perfect mother. 496 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: But she ends the article with this, now, when I 497 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: see a mother whose child is happily meandering behind her, 498 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: eating a twinkie and wearing wrinkled dinosaur pajamas and a 499 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: pair of swim fins. I no longer think she's an 500 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: unfit parent. I know she's just doing the best she can. Yeah. 501 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean there's definitely a whole conversation about trying 502 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: and disciplining children and all of that. But yeah, in 503 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: the end, you're just trying to survive, I think, and 504 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 2: that's commendable, yes and yeah. And then add to all 505 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 2: of these expectations the different types of parenting, whether it's 506 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 2: the crunchy moms, the gentle parenting, which is huge on 507 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: TikTok right now. There are a lot of opinions and 508 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 2: debates solely on these ideas. So what happens when you 509 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 2: add Christianity to the mix of it all. I grew 510 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: up in a fairly strict home. Spanking was common, Belts 511 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,239 Speaker 2: were used in similar tactics. I did have marks all 512 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: over me at times, and all with the idea that 513 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 2: the quote this hurts me more than it hurts you, 514 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,239 Speaker 2: which is an outright lie. It's a lie. Children, if 515 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 2: you listen to this, that's a lie. Please note these 516 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: were different times, and I'm not excusing anything, but the 517 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 2: environment and cultural experience does play into this disciplinary styles 518 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: if you think about the boomer level. I know, there's 519 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 2: a whole conversation on TikTok about how it's different when 520 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,719 Speaker 2: you were raised under different generations. My generations did have this. 521 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 2: I think it was getting less and less, but this 522 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: happened in many children in my community experienced similar childhood discipline. 523 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 2: Like we all probably had moments of like having marks 524 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: on us or something traumatic happened. I'm even old enough 525 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 2: to remember children being paddled by teachers in the school, 526 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 2: so that was a whole thing as well. And a 527 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: lot of this came from the Christian adage spare the rod, 528 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: spoil the child. And unfortunately, if you really want to 529 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 2: talk about it, this just take it out of context 530 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 2: and was made literal because this was supposed to be 531 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: about like shepherds leading with the rod, which they don't 532 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: beat their sheep with rod, but you know whatever, whatever, 533 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: that's a whole conversation. And yeah, one form of this 534 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: very idea that includes this is Christian fundamentalism. Writer Rebecca 535 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 2: Drumsta talks about this on her site and her own experiences. 536 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 2: She explains, quote, parenting inside a Christian fundamentalist system usually 537 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 2: comes with a formula of some sort based on what 538 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 2: they have been told is biblical parenting by a fundamentalists 539 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: pastor organization or ministry leader. And are in support of 540 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: breaking your child's will as soon as possible, but that's 541 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: masked as obedience, submission, and conforming to what is expected 542 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 2: by the authority. 543 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: Yes, and she goes on explaining spanking is traditionally the 544 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: preferred method of discipline. Obedience to parents is pre eminent. 545 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: Children have no voice or autonomy. Often even after they 546 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: are of legal age or married, they must still defer 547 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: to the parent. Sex is rarely discussed. Generally no education 548 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: given on the subject, and the very word spelled out 549 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: but not spoken is seen as taboo, except in the 550 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: occasional gender exclusive settings such as a women's only session 551 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: at a mayorae conference. And Fundamentalism often includes the following elements. 552 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 1: Authoritarian control, no outside influences, and obedience to your parents 553 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,479 Speaker 1: and church without question. Fear motivating based on fear God 554 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: is always watching, Shame, feeling shame for falling short, lack 555 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: of emotional education, can't trust your own emotions or being 556 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: told to always control your emotions like think of young 557 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: boys being told they can't cry, no mental health support, 558 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: just pray about it. 559 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 2: Parental perfection. 560 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: Never show your flalls, you need to fake it and 561 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: abuse drumsta rights. Parents inside of fundamentalism are conditioned to 562 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: believe you must protect the name of God, the church, 563 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: and those in leadership. This carries into not reporting to 564 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: the authorities or properly handling abuse situations with their own 565 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: children or members of their community, but instead dealing with 566 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: things internally by shipping the person to a new chane church, 567 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: sending them to an approved biblical counseling program, or simply 568 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: having a stern talk with the accused. It also enables 569 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: abusers to continue harming their wives, children, congregants, and yes, 570 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: even their husbands and grandchildren. This mindset has damaged countless 571 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: individuals and caused compound trauma as victims are shamed, not believed, 572 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: and even further victimized by those who are in posisions 573 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: of leadership or authority. Spiritual abuse is rampant in fundamentalist circles, 574 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: as is sexual, physical, and psychological abuse. 575 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's another conversation we could have 576 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 2: that I'm not gonna get too deep into, because, like 577 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 2: I said, people who have grown up in fairly strict 578 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 2: church background homes. Understand what this is. You have examples 579 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 2: of it. We talked previously about the abuses within churches, 580 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: such as sexual abuse that is often ignored or just 581 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 2: talked over and hidden. So we're not gonna too deep 582 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 2: on that, but let's talk about what happens when things 583 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 2: like domestic abuse happens. And according to one report in 584 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 2: the Baptistnews dot Com, the church has been a hunting 585 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 2: ground for domestic abusers. In the article, Janice Garrison Morrison, 586 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 2: I hope that's right, writes quote, domestic abusers have admitted 587 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 2: that the church is the best place to find a gullible, timid, 588 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 2: complacent wife. Abusers know all they have to do is 589 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 2: fake an interest in spirituality, say the right things, and 590 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 2: get involved. At church, young women are taught to value 591 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 2: strong male leadership and to watch for men who are 592 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 2: committed to God. Then, due to the encouragement of short engagements, 593 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 2: these girls are married long before they realized it was 594 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 2: all a ruse, only to be told is too late 595 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 2: and marriage is forever now. In her article, again it's 596 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: from Baptistnews dot Com, she often phrases the idea that 597 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 2: abusers infiltrate more so than the fact that they are 598 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 2: already part of that community or that they're raised within 599 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 2: the churches and within those communities. So I think that's 600 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 2: something to be said as if they're talking about lurking 601 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 2: monsters seeking to pounce on victims, and so that oftentimes, 602 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 2: instead of addressing the actual issues and rectified in the situation, 603 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 2: we see deflections kind of like this and outright denial. 604 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 2: But again, she's not wrong. Abusers have an amazing sense 605 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 2: of finding victims. We know this, but they may have 606 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 2: already been there. 607 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah. 608 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: And as we were researching this, we found a lot 609 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: of articles about churches and their leadership telling victims to 610 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: not talk about their abuse and oftentimes told to go 611 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: back to their abusive situations. In an article found on 612 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: the Criminal Justice Research Net, they write, quote holy hush 613 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: pervades many religious settings when it comes to the topic 614 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: of domestic violence. Even finding the right words to describe 615 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: what has happened in a violent outburst between a husband 616 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: and a wife can be contentious. Given the sociopolitical landscape 617 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: regarding the issue of abuse in the family context, perhaps 618 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: it is not too surprising that naming the issue becomes 619 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: a political act. By and large, clergy and other religious 620 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: leaders prefer the term family violence, downplaying the gender power 621 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: and balance. Moreover, many religious leaders are reluctant to condemn 622 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: wife abuse from the pulpit and confuse reconciliation between a 623 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: victimized woman and her abusive partner as evidence of recovery, 624 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: believing that since the violence has stopped, often only temporarily, 625 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: the home is now a safe place for each family member. 626 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 2: Right and actually, there was a Charleston newspaper called The 627 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 2: Post and Courier which received a Pulitzer for their three 628 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 2: part series on domestic violence in South Carolina, and a 629 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: pinpointed the Christian culture as one of the rules of 630 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 2: domestic violence. They are. Here's a quote from that article. 631 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 2: Part of the problem is rooted in the culture of 632 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 2: South Carolina, where men have long dominated the halls of power, 633 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: setting an agenda that clings to tradition and conservative Christian 634 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 2: tenets about the subservient role of women. This has bread 635 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 2: a tolerance of domestic violence that has passed through so 636 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 2: many generations behind so many closed doors that today I 637 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: think it was like twenty eighteen, South Carolina ranks number 638 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 2: one nationwide in the rate of men killing women. 639 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: And in that same article they write about the church's 640 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: response when it comes to domestic violence. 641 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 2: Quote. 642 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: They also talked with clergy to challenge age old beliefs 643 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: that domestic unrest was best resulted in the home and 644 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 1: approach that many times made the situation worse. The ministers 645 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: told us, quote, it's really a family issue. They need 646 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 1: to work it out. And that's a quote from Crenshaw, 647 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: a local worker in a domestic violence center in this article, 648 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: quote continues, but in some cases that's like telling a 649 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: victim to go running back into a burning house. What 650 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,720 Speaker 1: pastors communicate to their flocks also can fuel the problem 651 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 1: if inadvertently scripture says women are to be submissive. Suffering 652 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: is part of life, as Jesus suffered for your sins 653 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: on the path of salvation. Divorce bus a sin and 654 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: it goes on the Reverend Mark Bagwell of Golden Corner, 655 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: a contemporary Baptist church in a Cooney's small town of Valhalla, 656 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: concedes that religious vows and teachings have likely kept a 657 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: good number of women from leaving their abusers. Churches have 658 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,280 Speaker 1: played a major role in making women feel that quote 659 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: God would be disappointed in them if they left their husband. 660 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 2: He says, yeah. In that article, it really was very, 661 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 2: very interesting, So if you have time to go look 662 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 2: it up, you should. There have been a lot of 663 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 2: counterpoise from church affiliates and they were not happy. Just 664 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 2: that's actually how I found it. Was again because all 665 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 2: my algorithm is given the church's point of view, but 666 00:40:54,600 --> 00:41:02,279 Speaker 2: I nically found it anyway. But there's so many more 667 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 2: stories similar to this, whether it was women who need 668 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 2: to obey their husbands so they aren't hit, or that 669 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 2: it is a family matter, and yeah, I've witnessed this 670 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 2: so many times just growing up in charges like this, 671 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 2: even family telling their children to go back to their husband, 672 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 2: their own daughter and after he the abuse, are actually 673 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 2: admitted to having hit them, and because they were apologetic, 674 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 2: they're like, Okay, yeah, you should go back. And in 675 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,800 Speaker 2: this blog Confusion to Clarity, one counselor asked survivors, quote, 676 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 2: what was the worst advice you were given when trying 677 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 2: to get help to deal with your abusive marriage? And y'all, yeah, 678 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 2: this is not cute, so sorry. Here are some of 679 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 2: the responses. God did warn you about him before you 680 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 2: married him. Just don't pay attention. Then there's show him 681 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 2: more respect. Watch your tone you speak to him. If 682 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 2: you speak more respectfully to him, he'll respond in a 683 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 2: positive way. And here's another quote from a woman. She said, 684 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 2: I contacted the police due to him being physically violent 685 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,800 Speaker 2: towards me, and my pastor's response was Christians do not 686 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 2: call the police on one another. I suggest you apologize 687 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,920 Speaker 2: to your wrongdoing towards your husband. 688 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: Ooh, and there's more. My pastor told me he didn't 689 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: think what I was telling him was true and said 690 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: women in menopause sometimes have breaks from what's real and 691 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: what's not. I will not sit here and listen to 692 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: you shame your husband. Another woman said I was told 693 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: that saying my spouse was abusive and unfaithful was sin. 694 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: You need to take him back because he is sorry. 695 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: You need to return to him and be a submissive wife, 696 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: and you might save him. My pastor said, if I 697 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: had a wife like you, I'd hit you myself. They 698 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: said I needed to stay and hope and pray that 699 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: I couldn't quote give up because God wanted me to 700 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 1: be faithful and patient and persevering. 701 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, article on article on article, they had 702 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 2: these phrases, and I have seen that being said. I 703 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 2: have heard women and victims saying it to themselves, not 704 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 2: having any support, being told that this is their fault. 705 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 2: I made them angry, but they put God on it, 706 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 2: you know, they put Jesus on it on this one. Again. 707 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 2: The message often comes back to women, submit to your 708 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 2: husband and the evils of divorce, which we'll talk about 709 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 2: in the next episode, because yeah, this was very long. 710 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 2: In an article written for The Conversation, they actually talk 711 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 2: about a study completed in England, and it says, in 712 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,919 Speaker 2: a survey of churchgoers in Cumbria, England, one in four 713 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 2: respondents had experienced at least one of the nominated abusive 714 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 2: behaviors such as being kicked, punched, threatened with a weapon, 715 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 2: isolated or sexually coerced in their current relationships, and more 716 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 2: than forty percent of the respondents had experienced at least 717 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,720 Speaker 2: one in a current or previous relationship. The research noted 718 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 2: if evangelical churches were reluctant to participate in the survey, 719 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 2: perhaps indicating and this is their quote, the reluctance of 720 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 2: these churches to a dress domestic violence in their own communities. 721 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: M and The response, though there are many who are 722 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 1: trying to better their churches, is often lacking, as shown 723 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: in the examples above. Victim blaming a lot of shaming. 724 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: Women are told to help their husbands to overcome their sins, 725 00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: or that they are doing something to make men sin. 726 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: Some do offer counseling, but oftentimes are lineent to men 727 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: who quote pent for their sins and advise wives to 728 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: go back to their husbands and family. And when it 729 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: comes to emotional abuse, it's even worse. More often than not, 730 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: the idea of emotional abuse is dismissed completely as a 731 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:48,640 Speaker 1: non existent problem and with no physical evidence, leaving a 732 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: woman trapped as blogger Amy Wildman, White Rights and less. 733 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: Pastors and counselors can recognize that often subtle and always 734 00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: complex dynamics of emotional abuse. Women will contin They need 735 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: to be victimized, first by their husbands and then by 736 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: the church or the community. And abuse of man who 737 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: is not held accountable is indirectly supported and given license 738 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 1: to continue his destructive patterns, and those around him become enablers. 739 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: Women are not treated with dignity and respect as God intended, 740 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:19,680 Speaker 1: and so God is not honored. 741 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,800 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, and churches all over the world are getting 742 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 2: called out for their neglectful behavior and lack of advocacy 743 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 2: for women in those churches. Many churches are trying to 744 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,399 Speaker 2: step up to assist, often with the idea that such 745 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 2: bad behavior does not exist in their own churches. So 746 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,960 Speaker 2: it's an outward thing. Think of missionaries, just those poor 747 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 2: people that they are supposed to save. And if they 748 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 2: were to admit that there is an issue in the 749 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,239 Speaker 2: church that crushes the idea that their church is a 750 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 2: godly ordained group of people, they can't admit that. And 751 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 2: going a step further admitting that marriage has failed, which 752 00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,359 Speaker 2: this is the phrase what God hath joined together, let 753 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,759 Speaker 2: no man put as under. That's in mark and is 754 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 2: a moral failing and a sin many can't forgive. This 755 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 2: is the biggest sin I saw it growing up. Divorced 756 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 2: was even worse than someone being hit or raped. And 757 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 2: but that's again the topic for the next episode. It's 758 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,920 Speaker 2: not pretty, It's never pretty. But yeah, there's a lot 759 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 2: happening in this conversation. There's a lot of call outs, 760 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 2: but a little solution, it. 761 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 3: Seems, yeah, and I means as this mini series slash 762 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 3: series is proving there's just so much to unpack here 763 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 3: with when you have such a tight morality from such 764 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 3: a young age of like, well this is what makes 765 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 3: me good, right. 766 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: And I could literally go to hell exapt. Yeah, it's 767 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,879 Speaker 1: a lot, it's a lot to unpack, and we're continuing to. 768 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 5: Do so, but surely slowly, let's go with it is 769 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,799 Speaker 5: it is, And we've really appreciated hearing from you listeners 770 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 5: about this one and your thoughts about this, So. 771 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: Keep that, keep that up. You can email us at 772 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 1: Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find 773 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, or on Instagram 774 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,879 Speaker 1: and TikTok at stuff One Never Told You. We're also 775 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: on YouTube. We have a book that you can pre 776 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: order at stuff you Should Read Books dot com. Thanks 777 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, 778 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: and our contributor Joey. Y'all are the best you are 779 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,879 Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Ever Told 780 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: Me is production of iHeartRadio. For more podcast on my 781 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app, 782 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.